America and other free and open societies face crucial challenges and opportunities abroad that affect security and prosperity at home this is a series of conversations with guests who bring deep understanding of today's Battlegrounds and creative ideas about how to compete overcome challenges capitalize on opportunities and secure a better future I am H aricm this is [Music] Battlegrounds on today's episode of Battlegrounds our focus is on Afghanistan Our Guest Adela Ross was the ambassador of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan to the United States and is an outspoken advocate for human rights Ambassador Ross was the first woman to hold the post of Deputy Chief of Staff for an Afghan president's ad administrative office she served in this post under the administrations of both president Hamid kazai and president Ash gani she was the deputy Minister for economic cooperation at Afghanistan's Ministry of Foreign Affairs from 2016 to 2018 from 2018 to July of 2021 RZ served as Afghanistan's first female Ambassador and permanent representative to the United Nations where she was the vice president of the 75th session of the the general assembly since 2022 Ross has served as the Director of the Afghanistan policy Lab at the Princeton School of Public and international Affairs Ambassador Ros has a master's degree in law and diplomacy from the Fletcher school at Tufts University during the 20192020 negotiations between United States representatives and the Taliban in DOA us envoys deluded themselves that the new Taliban regime in Afghanistan would share power be less repressive and oppose rather than support other terrorist organizations but after the collapse of security in Afghanistan and the deadly us withdrawal from kabell in August 2021 the Taliban reestablished its brutal and violent form of rule extinguishing the freedoms Afghans had restored after the us-led Coalition and Afghan allies toppled the Taliban regime at the end of 200 2001 the Taliban denies basic rights to women and considers women to be proper one of the taliban's first acts in the fall of 2021 was to ban girls from secondary education as they had before women in Afghanistan continue to face punishing restrictions on employment freedom of movement and access to Medical Care the taliban's laws to prevent Vice and promote virtue include requirements for a woman to conceal her face body and voice outside the home us officials indulged in wish ful thinking that the Taliban would keep a promise to not allow any group or individual against the security of the United States and its allies into Afghanistan 3 years after the fall of kabell al-Qaeda runs terrorist training camps in at least 12 of Afghanistan's 34 provinces and operates bases with weapons Depot while the Taliban collaborate with other jihadist terrorists the Afghan people are suffering from a serious humanitarian crisis the United Nations development program estimates that Afghanistan's GDP per capita is $345 which is among the lowest in the world in 2023 nearly half of Afghans faced acute hunger violence and poverty under Taliban rule have made Afghans the third largest displaced population in the world only outnumbered by Syrian and Ukrainian refugees we welcome Ambassador was to discuss the humanitarian catastrophe and systemic human rights abuses under Taliban rule the lessons and the consequences of the collapse of the Afghanistan Republic and the future of Afghanistan and its diaspora Ambassador Adel Ros welcome to Battlegrounds it's great to see you again and I really appreciate you joining us likewise thank you thank you the Char McMaster for your time and I'm very much looking forward to this conversation today well you know we're talking about a song subject now the on the just after the third anniversary of the collapse of security in in Cabell and which really I think you know thrust Afghanistan back into the I would describe it as the hell of Taliban rule you know that the Afghan people had sadly experienced already from 1996 to 2001 but I you know there's not much news coming out of out of Afghanistan these days at least in the mainstream media you have to go to particular sites to really understand better you know what's happening to the Afghan people what the situation is could you maybe just share with our viewers and catch them up you know who were we witness daily right the tragedy of the collapse in Afghanistan the what I would call the self-defeat and and humiliating withdrawal uh but then you know of course like all issues even even very important issues like this public attention kind of kind of waned and we haven't heard much lately so would you mind just sharing your perspective on what's happening in the country of course of course um uh uh and and it's an interesting analysis you mentioned that in terms of the mainstream media does not cover much of Afghanistan but for many of us despite that we're here we do follow very closely and this this really um I didn't pay attention to it but in terms of uh what we hear and from families who are inside the country and of course with uh uh still media Outlets uh and of upon aan that covers the issue it's a very uh daunting and um pretty challenging environment right now uh in so many uh levels in so many ways uh first in terms of the humanitarian situation as you may know um that Afghanistan was heavily dependent on foreign aid even before and uh we had not arrived at the economic self-sufficiency then and it's even worse because it's a regime that does not understand the macroeconomic stability but really well and the policies that they are implementing in the aid that have been impacted so that overall has impacted the um well-being of Afghans living in Afghanistan right now so it's a very dire economic situation second uh it's a country with 50% of the population is wom and a large number of them are the main households and at the current situation they being banned from working and being the sole bread winner for their households those family families are heavily infected uh and they have uh difficult times and uh in terms of the uh living style and and life for women in Afghanistan especially young women uh it's it's it's difficult it's almost like a 203 24 years ago when I was there in Taliban for the first time arrived where a woman were banned and they're banned today from um being outside by themselves uh they have to have a family companion a male family companion with them and then all those households that do not have uh male family members to um accompany them um and I just saw I just saw the recent report of yes even banned women's voices exactly exactly wom's voices taxi drivers are not allowed to give a right to a woman by themsel and that really comes with those who have health issues those who have young kids to take them to the doctor and and that's miserable that's that's almost you push away a woman for non-existence as a human being in the society and then education and I think for so many Afghan women um with with the the uh the country that it is and it was uh education was the window of Hope for so many uh of us because that was giving us the space to be to be independent and to stand on our own feet and that door being closed and it's for last three years so girls are not allowed to go to school on grade six and and my biggest fear is honestly speaking I think it's still a matter of time and there might be a time that girls will be banned completely from education as well from grade first because it happened before uh so it's a it's dire humanitarian there dire economic uh at the same time terrible human rights uh record at this moment and similarly it's it's the worst place for woman right now on the entire Earth for anybody to live and that is Afghanistan uh unfortunately and it's heartbreaking uh because I have family I have I within fames young girls death once I encourag them I pushed them I asked them to go to school I told them to think bigger and and dream bigger and and today all those dreams are crashed and and and I still have not had the guts and the strengths to be able to speak to them because I don't know what to tell what to say I can't imagine how heartbreaking it is I it's heartbreaking for those of us who know Afghanistan a little a little bit and had the the privilege of of serving there you know for those who were criticizing the US effort in support of the Afghan government and the Afghan people against I would say these enemies of all civilized peoples the the Taliban and other jihadist terrorist organ organizations uh people criticized that effort for many years saying we weren't doing any good you know and I would just say for our servicemen and women for the Afghans who fought and and sacrificed uh I mean this very sad situation I think demonstrates how Noble that mission was from a humanitarian perspective but also Adella there big security concerns you know you have a terrorist organization that's in charge of the country you have somebody like saraj Shani who you might maybe tell our listeners uh something about um who's now the head of the ministry of interior and issu issuing passports I think there's been a report recently that I just saw a report recently that there are now terrorist training camps uh Al-Qaeda and other jihadist terrorist organizations in 15 of Afghan provinces so could you maybe uh Bridge from the humanitarian catastrophe which we were just talking about uh and then talk a little bit about the the the uh the terrorist U implications uh and the security threats now now that are growing in in Afghanistan and maybe a little bit about what's happening across the border in Pakistan as well absolutely and and before I go there I also wanted to to um tap on what you said the uh the the investment that was made uh in the uh 20 years before taliban's second time arrival before August 15 of 2021 um it's uh I must say I think uh I absolutely Echo what you say uh for me um and and I always share the my life story I was one of those young woman uh when I was in Afghanistan and I had not been able to lift the country and I was there and I couldn't go to school for 5 years and uh and then I once become the first uh woman ambassador of Afghanistan to the United Nation and and I always said despite that we were among the first countries who joined the UN we never had a female Ambassador or female PR or permanent representative at the UN and I always said that that Journey was only a possible because of the investment that was made and and I truly Echo and say this when people question and doubt was it worth it was that investment lost and I always say no it's not lost because I'm the product of it and there's so many others the struggle that's right now Afghan woman and Afghan youth are facing and still despite all the challenges they stand against and try to express their views that's part of the investment we had one of the most independent and credible media in the region and and despite all the challenges they're still trying to do their best so that is it it's a country with close to 40 million population and 70% of them are the younger generation and this generation thinks much differently than the generation of 30 and 40 years ago and even compared to the younger generation in the region most progressively thinking so for me I feel like that is the true investment that had taken place it has not been lost and of course with the time we may lose it and my hope is hopefully we don't so yes I absolutely Echo what you said and in terms of the security situation um yes you summarized it um in a in a really uh good way because um I've been trying to tell people and say look when radicalization arrives when radicalization of minds and thinking and Views arrive and when it starts to be cultivated um in in the way um it had been done and 20 years um during um several madrasas outside of Afghanistan and some inside of Afghanistan and led by Taliban and currently they are even expanding in that footprint then this is almost uh almost similar to a cancer where you cannot have control over it it starts to spread so in the face of it what we are seeing right now uh the those who are in the most wanted list those who are still under the UN sanctions list they have not been removed from the UN sanctions list uh they running right now the uh the country and and then uh our expectation would be that the next morning they just become a civilian and start to think the right way that any other leader would think I think that's going to be pretty challenging that's number one and number two it's also the foot soldiers that they have trained for me I think that part really is the critical even if some of the leaders pretend to look that they probably have changed or imitate and that they have changed but their foot soldiers the type of relationships that those soldiers have built a acoss with other terrorist organizations uh that they were really the survival Network for each other for the 20 years ago where you were there uh American forces were there Afghan forces were fighting and and and that was a survival uh space and and how overnight that survival space will be eliminated and there are so many intermarriages as you may know families are built around us and so it's a pretty complex and I think probably somehow unrealistic expectations to have to be honest and I think it's also extremely dangerous and and and and it's something that I feel in a very slow space it's spreading I mean a good example is right now look in Pakistan uh I probably might be among the very few Afghans that may think at this moment maybe there is a list of a control that even Taliban may have over the TTP in Pakistan because I feel this is Tariq Taliban Pakistan this is a a an offshoot of the Taliban that is that is vehemently uh anti the Pakistani government Pakistani army they conducted that horrible that horrible school bombing you know years ago exactly so so you you already see what is happening in the immediate neighbor neighboring country and and I don't know how much of even Taliban leadership will have space or force or control over to contain it because once an ideology is cultivated once it takes root once they they build this thems up 20 plus another 10 15 years it's a long term of thought and belief system that's inherited and you can break it right away and then it's it becomes a source of Attraction for other radicalist groups around the world and here we are we are in the 21st century and and and of course so many great things are happening but there is another part to it which is connectivity of mind and thoughts which is happening so quick and so fast across the border across the continents that um that I feel it's a source of Attraction for the rest of uh other terrorist networks around the world and and here is a breeding space for it so it's it's a pretty challenging environment it's a pretty risky space and I think the region feels it much faster than any of us at this moment but you know you are the expert in the security the security threat when it Ares it cannot be contained in one part of the world and one region and especially where we live right now where we are in the world it can spread so fastly in a blink of an eye to another part of the world easily so God forbidden I hope it doesn't happen but but it's it's a your experts are constantly saying the red lights are blinking well the red lights are are blinking Adella and you know of course you have a particularly vitriolic group called Isis coron and as you alluded to uh this is a geographic and ideological part of this jihadist terrorist broad movement just like the the the tigress and Euphrates river valleys are uh in Syria and Iraq and and that's one of the reasons why you know I think you could describe our effort in Afghanistan as an effort really to to to fight along a modern day Frontier between barbarism and civil civilization you know and and um and you know I'm really concerned about the growing jihadist terrorist threat and as you mentioned one of the big lies that we heard you know or to be maybe a little bit Kinder you know self- delusion was that there was this bold line you know between the Taliban and other jihadist terrorist organizations and of course as you've mentioned and described so clearly I mean they share people they share resources there's intermarriages they cooperate oftentimes and and um and so I I think the danger is is growing very significantly we've already seen the infiltration of some of these jihadist terrorists from from Central Asia other Central Asian States uh across our Southern border you know which is another reason we should be concerned because we haven't been securing our Southern border so we've talked about the humanitarian kind of catastrophe we we've talked a little bit about about you know the about the terrorist threat and how it's growing but also there have been geostrategic consequences Del I think I think the the you know the the self-defeat I don't know how else to describe it in in Afghanistan I think has led to an emboldening of a whole range of adversaries and left to some some big geopolitical yes I'm thinking of course of the invasion of Ukraine just a few months later you know of course the collapse in Afghanistan of August of 2021 and the massive reinvasion of Ukraine in in in February of 2022 but it was around the time of the collapse in Afghanistan that Putin start the Marshal forces and wrote a long essay about hey Ukraine's not even a thing China's become emboldened in Central Asia and elsewhere uh other countries have hedged you know you with you with Russia for example I think of India because they looked to you behind their back who's got our back well hey the United States just left you know so they they felt as if they have no option but to to hedge with with Russia so could you maybe just uh share your thoughts uh on the geostrategic uh uh consequences of the collapse of of uh 2021 yes no absolutely I will and I will also kind of incorporate a little bit of my experience when I worked at the United Nation in a multilateral platform where um you almost have the everybody there the entire world and this very competitive diplomatic space and and and I Al so this is this is very much an observation from an outside Outsider in a sense of where the US stands even now and where it stood before and and and and um uh in a sense where you're you're heading and how critical it is to to basically balance things and um you know one thing I I I always said that um you you do carry uh besides your domestic policies the US also carry a very heavy responsibility in terms of your foreign policy because for so many uh countries out there uh with the with the Legacy that you have always carried on uh this is an important Legacy if it's the legacy of Human Rights democracy uh as you said civilization open openness um um connectivity um uh market economy the the things that that makes you stand very strong and very different from the rest of the world uh it's still there and a lot of countries look up to so um and and this very polarized world where we are I mean for me even with the three years that I was at the United Nation and the and and in that space where I saw how things were and by the time I was leaving how things ended at that time I could see we are really In This Very polarized stage and and and the competition for power is there very real so I think this is one thing that it needs to be very much processed heavily uh number one and number two uh yes it's a very evolving word it's a very different word and especially our part of the region I think it's changing so drastically and and especially with the role of the GCC countries in terms of the openness the economic development that they have taken the lead in and and there is a lot to that that their policy decisions are coming based on how things are evolving and I think that's a really important element that needs to be incorporated and three as you said I think the um the whole element of Afghanistan I think this was a case of where the um the International Community with great commitment arrived uh in Afghanistan and and try to bring a brighter day for Afghan and I think no matter what how much doubt we may have they did I think that part was so obvious that the change happened in the lives of so many Afghans and even today that we look into and we take pride and we hold that still as an example to move again where we were that's I think a success story and example that you did right and and I think this is this is this is obvious where uh where you are in that evolving space and a decision arrives when the US withdraws with uh with uh with a nation that you had a bilateral strategic agreement bilateral security strategic agreement um correct and uh and and here we are it's as I said it's a polarized War people are reshaping countries are reshaping themselves and then I think it comes a challenging space you start to decide to say okay which way do I go and where do I build my new alliances right and and then if we link this with Putin's uh very moal Behavior towards Ukraine it could be the true statement who knows um McMaster you know it much better than I do um or are evolving situation I think some may even link it to the Middle East what's happening right now uh correct with a very bold um behavior from Hamas uh that could be linked to something like that as well we don't know there will be greater analysis in the future but overall I think one takeaway that was really really strong and your colleagues also looked at it very carefully when post Ukraine there was an um resolution that came at the council at the ga and it was voted it was really voted unexpectedly right and it really true truly showed off where the region was moving and how the region was calculating the risk and I think we um here we are with with with such a um impressive history of uh us you always have have had this time of where you pause and you reflect and you look you move forward and I think in the case of Afghanistan it's truly a space that we should get out of the blame game and start to think very critically and very uh how do I say soberly and say look this happened how do we make sure we don't repeat the same if there is a mistake in the future and if there is no mistake what we have learned to do better because I feel Ukraine is the next case Middle East the peace talks are happening that's another issue and and and and and we look in Africa there is also evolving situation and security threats arriving so I think overall I feel um this this is really a time of a critical reflection and really identifying how we can do better because all the questions that we are raising I think it's a valid question we may find a different answer or the the same answer but it is a question we must raise and I say this very humbly because where you stand you are still the leader of the Free World and I feel this is this is something you need to hold it very tight and strong I I couldn't agree more maybe that's where we could just shift the conversation toward is like how did it happen right so of course we have we we know that it was after the mass murder attacks of 911 that the United States led a coalition and and NATO um in a campaign to unseat the Taliban who were the sponsors and and hosts of of al-Qaeda um collapsed Taliban government quite quickly uh and and we began you know the what what be what became um you know a you know 20 plus year commitment uh to stabilizing Afghanistan and helping the Afghan people establish security of course in that time uh the Taliban regenerated uh with the help of al-Qaeda uh and with Pakistan's inner Services intelligence and uh donations from Gulf donors and so forth um and and initiated an extended terrorist and and Insurgent Insurgency campaign uh against the Afghan government Afghan security forces and Coalition forces but we don't have time to give the whole history you know of the of the the 20 year war um but uh can you maybe just talk about you know really how do you see how do you explain the collapse and the failure because we haven't really come to grips with it in the United States there have been some Congressional hearings that we saw in a couple months ago um but uh but I'd love to just hear your perspective on how do you understand the collapse and the principal causes of it h I think this is going to take us such a long time to really get to the core of it and uh and for me after three years I still think about it uh right I can't really find or point fingers into one reason why uh it's a collective it's it's it's a multiple reasons it's many reasons I think at the Forefront because still I I and and I and I I think I have the right reason to say this uh I do link it to our um uh the Afghan leaders as well because those who take power and take the responsibility you commit to uh certain uh deliverables uh towards the citizens and that comes with security risk and risks to your life uh with all that all the tpe choices one needs to make so I think that that was definitely uh we failed that one part for sure um and then secondly I think a major question is really um McMaster it comes to colleagues like you it's the the element that how the security capability of Afghan forces for build and I think to me it's not even the capability the confidence I think this is another very um intense thesis and question that we need to look and then see in the future how it could be mitigated in other um State Building processes as well uh so in that sense I think the um security sector how it was built and the type of dependency and relian as it had the type of confidence it had or it didn't have uh right and and um that's that's the second part and I think the third is really the entire State Building process I think this is a much larger question I uh a lot of time when I sit with my own uh friends aan friends and we sit and there is there is a part we kind of acknowledge and say somehow it should have collapsed because because the the state the the the the state building process itself had not been done very carefully I think um it's there's so many literature out there it always says a country po a postconflict uh country or Society um it it requires a lot of time in order to build um functional State and State institutions and then usually it's the most tough and the most long-term investment that it can be made and I think for that we didn't do right and I think the element of corruption was really at at the core of it absolutely that's undeniable that's completely undeniable and it it really fueled it it really made it messy and almost unsustainable uh and it was and it was based politically based right and and exactly one of the one of the you know one of the um big explanations that that is compelling to me is that we essentially took a short-term approach which you already alluded to to a long-term problem and as a result you know the we lengthened the war made it more costly and because we just wanted to get out we just turned everything over to really the mujahedin era Elites who we had empowered during the military campaign with our advisory effort and air power that was quite effective from a military perspective but those those uh those muad militias morphed into criminalized patronage networks that affected State capture from the bottom up of critical State Min Ministries but and government functions you know border crossings airports you name it just name it and because we said we're leaving hey we're leaving they they thought okay well I need to consolidate power in case there's a return of the Civil War of 92 to 96 and I think that was part of the incentive right was to was to consolidate power and you know to to get as much out of the assistance effort as they could uh to build up a war chest but also they were criminals right so they they they also want to enrich themselves but but there was a political Dimension to this corruption that we didn't really ever address effectively and and and that part and then I think even post the 911 I think even for me when I look at that time even from that I mean if we go further it's even more complex and difficult to uh analyze but even post 911 I think with the state building process like I have a huge criticism even the type of democracy we build and I think I'm not critical of democracy I must put this upfront I am a such a strong Advocate and despite even what we have gone through it right now I feel if uh anytime again Afghans have the chance to choose uh another political form it's going to be again democratic form uh because that's that's who we are so no I'm not the tradition all those Traditions yeah but it was a very centralized system ital strcture exactly and then uh and and that itself and then you start to have now we have this whole debate and question um um around the justice and the peace element and I so clearly remember that it said well we can bring Justice because if you bring Justice then peace will not be sustainable but it went the other way around because of the absence of the Justice the peace was not sustainable itself I think that's so true you know and this is not not nadir's report on on all the you know the atrocities and yes and Andes Against Humanity it was it was suppressed and nothing happened suppressed and and we almost felt like uh nothing has happened we just start fresh and we move on but there was a lot had happened and we couldn't move on we all hold Grievances and greges against each other and to me me I think a good wakeup call was when when when the fall of uh kble happened and and then the hate that came from the society from individuals that I know from people that I know internally and and it really shocked me beyond anything I I was just like where was this and that's where I felt we we were not ready we had not really address how far uh how much of a pain we have and we have to address this so I feel this this is such a long um uh you know it requires a lot of study it requires a lot of reflection and I'm constantly saying the case of Afghanistan is the modern day case study that we need to look into it in multiple ways you know the security intervention in a sense how it could be sustainable in the future because I agree 20 years is still long for 20 years we it's if taken a longterm approach think about what you could have done with to reduce those dependencies you talked about economic economic you know private sector development we didn't work on that and and also you know what happened is turning a blind eye to these criminalized patronage networks who were hollowing out the institutions you know as we're trying to build them and because we were thinking so traditionalist we said the elites are the one who's going to control it right all we need to do is train people educate people no it's a political problem and it was again associated with us saying hey we're leaving because I think at the time you know president carzi what he did is he he fostered a political settlement in Afghanistan that was actually reliant on unchecked criminality and so he essentially gave these groups license to loot the state uh in exchange for impu exchange for their political support their political fty and and the political settlement became Reliant on you know on this kind of um culture of impunity you know and and um that we just didn't we just didn't do it and we didn't do enough about it I we what we did is we took an approach for some time this is you know before you know like 20091 remember when we kind of turned on eight nine 10 like a lot of a lot of cash came into the country well beyond the absorptive capacity and count to it was it was there was no mechanism for talking and accountability corre and our m was hey if if you if you don't reform you know if you don't take on corruption we'll give you twice as much money next year I mean that's ex it was it was it was crazy and we're doing the same thing now in other parts of the world yeah I'm not going to name it in this podcast you know it's happening so that's where my my concern arrives I think the culture of impunity had been so Bolden and it and and and for for so many of us we remember it was this whole debate of like because we unite to bring peace so we can go on the Justice part so it's okay we're going to move with this individual we're going to move forward and I and and it was replicated it was replicated with the um with the presence of of of um you know our um so many people who came from the outside and with that I mean the the Afghans with second uh dual citizenships as well so this this this is my other criticism I always say if there is ever a chance again in Afghanistan and other parts of the world we must be very cautious and careful with those who have dual citizenships because and if it's me or anyone else because this was one more thing when you have a safe in outside of Afghanistan right away naturally you think about okay I'm going to do my best and if it doesn't work then I will walk away and that's what happened people exactly did the same thing they tried it didn't work they just walked away and I think it shouldn't be like that because if you your family lives there if your your kids go to the same school if your kids are living you have invest ments in Afghanistan you put your blood and your life to make sure it works it out and it's it's it's it can be Afghanistan it can be in Sudan it can be in other parts of the world as well but I think this part of um if we are promoting because at the end of the day let's let's take it um there is always support for few individuals that we really wish to come to the Forefront and become Cote unquote the leader and I think the there are should be still pre-checks in advance and I think for me me strongly one comes really this element of where do they have their bank accounts is it inside the country or outside the country as long as it's outside the country don't trust correct and and and and I think this is what we should really keep in mind and in the case of Afghanistan one thing else was really pushed back it was the younger generation I think the younger generation naturally were pushed away from the society because it's a very patriotical Society in a sense of the elite and the hierarchy really matters and and and a little bit of a criticism for the um Western expats that ared they push that ideology as well they this this whole whole orientalist thoughts is like this is how Afghanistan was managed and controlled for centuries and traditionally and we're going to embolden the same structure and I think that's that's where the challenge has arrived I'm sure I'm going to be very much challenged by so many Afghan who uh do not think the way I do but I feel the voice of woman the younger generation is an important element and hopefully in the future we address this because to me I say this is it's going to be those who are in there in 20s who are going to make the right decision because for for us even me uh not 308 for me I think this generation we we had one chance we messed it up we don't should not have be given a second chance it should be the younger ones and I think it should replicate in other parts of the world as well hopefully yeah tell was was one of the most heartbreaking parts of this is that so many of my friends were part of this multiethnic Reform movement you know that that uh had a really Clear Vision for the future of the country and we're working hard to help realize that that future and I'm thinking of some of the you know young students I know at American University of Afghanistan those who had even suffered wounds in a in a Taliban attack and refused to to to remain in Europe after their medical treatment and came back and so many stories like that and so but you know so we had this we had we talked about like the ugly right the the the corruption and the the ineffec of Aid and and how we could have built security Force more effectively but despite all that despite all that I think uh in 2017 18 and into 19 I think that the situation had improved from a security perspective uh we were on a path for reform I think within the security sector in the era of corruption I mean Afghanistan wasn't about to become Denmark you know in terms of corruption but but it was but it was functioning uh and then there was a dramatic reversal in in policy by the United States uh to send an Envoy uh ambassador zal kilad to negotiate with the Taliban without the Afghan government present and I think that's what began a significant downturn in security and I think you you're so you're so such a wise person you know but you said you talked about confidence right and I think that is is is so important in in your ability to defend your country or you you know to uh to stand up to these kind of terrorist organizations who really you know use fear you know fear to incite collapse fear to establish and maintain control of society and the the the the confidence I think of the Afghan people Security Forces began to on a downturn because we're sitting across from the Taliban in Doha without the Afghan government could you maybe just talk about your understanding of you know the beginning of the collapse when you saw think it began and the series of events and decisions uh that led to that you know those horrible scenes uh in August of 20121 sure I think um you you summarize it well and I'm I'm going to add to that in a sense that if it is in the case of Afghanistan or any other peace processes and it's the sad story is for us of course I think the um modern one or the recent one was the Doha peace process correct but um out there in the world there were so many examples that we could have just looked and studied should have studied even more carefully that no peace process is ever successful if all parties are not part of it so in in a sense if the talk happens and you do not have all parties if it is the Afghan government the Afghan people Afghan woman Afghan youth I mean think of it all that that is an absence so naturally the end result is not going to be what you wish wish for and and I remember at the time when um the talks were about to start it took us a lot of effort and especially for afan woman to push for adding the voice of woman to have woman in the table because that was even a hard one and look at it it's a country with as I said you know the formal statistics says about 50% woman could be even higher with the war that's had taking place so you exclude already half of the population being not there so how do you expect it's going to be sustainable and it was not it failed from head to toe so I I think that itself and then around that it was very simple and very understandable um uh arguments uh that that especially Afghan women and and Afghan youth brought forward and that was how do we protect the gains we have made and that was if it was the rights of uh Afghan woman if it was the constit tion itself it was if the aan parliament uh so how do we build how do we protect these because you can go scratch you have certain things and then yes you reform your political structure the way that's compromised and and negotiated and I think if UPF front you get the signal that those doesn't matter or this is going to go anyways then you right away the confidence is broken you you go to the table and you already feel well uh I have to I've lost this negot negotiation anyways and then on the other side it was also um I think it's it's a really really critical uh takeaway because if you negotiate with the Party In conflict and then you give this this the thinking to the party In conflict that they have won this they win this then you have no tools to pressure them to come forward for any compromise and I think that's exactly what happened with Taliban correct I think all of us from from the beginning to the end said that we are giving them the sense they have won and then they won't come to the table with a element of compromise and it was true and then even at the end I think for some who were really closely following and were at the negotiating table I think there was a little bit of a sparkle of hope that there was a possible compromise that could have been made which was still then was not contained by our leader so I think it's a it's it's a it's a it's a the takeaway is simply for any peace process we have to have all parties on the table we should have a genuine commitment an element of compromise should come from all the parties and when we say all the parties it's members of the society as well because you have parties and conflict and then you have people who live in that conflict and that's the regular people and then we always underestimate their ability and then their uh contribution to it because we just feel you know what whatever comes there going to accepted that's not the truth that is exactly not the truth because they are the actual indicators or or factors who is going to implement the agreement itself and in our case it was the majority of Afghan it was the Afghan woman it was the Afghan youth that we completely excluded them we just felt they don't exist we're going to make a decision in here and then going to bring it to them and then they're going to follow no no it's not also you know just in terms of you know those last uh those last years 2019 2020 to 2021 um I also it seemed to me as if we almost partnered with the Taliban against the Afghan government I think to a lot of our viewers that's going to sound crazy but if you think about what we did we sat down with them as I mentioned with without the Afghan government present but then we gave we gave the Taliban a timeline for a withdrawal and as you mentioned how does that work you know where you want to get you know a favorable negotiated settlement but you say you're leaving and then we began to restrict our support for Afghan Security Forces we stopped actively tal targeting the Taliban we withdrew a lot of our Logistics and air support and intelligence support removed all of our aircraft from from the country uh and then we forced the Afghan government to release from prison 5 thou thousand some of the most heinous criminals you could imagine um and so it was just blow after blow psych blow to the confidence as you mentioned and so I think the collapse was completely predictable by the spring of of 2021 and in fact you know I've never mentioned this actually but I wrote a letter to uh to President Biden in the spring of 2021 and I said hey if you don't do these six things it's going to it's going to collapse you know and and it's going to be an utter disaster and of course you know he was very stubborn you know in his view I wouldn't listen to anybody including his senior military advisers about what was necessary I mean how the heck does it make sense to evacuate the military before civilian I mean it was a disaster you know and and they still haven't come to terms with it or taken any responsibility for it but I thought maybe you could add like a a final word about the collapse but then I do want to have one last question because I can't believe we're almost out of time I want to talk about the future as well but so so any any other thoughts on on on the collapse and um and then I want to talk about the future and and maybe maybe a glimmer of hope we we hope for the future for the I think I would talk about the future you know we talked pretty good chunk on the collapse and and and then there as I said there's so many layers you can pick it up and then you see but I I I wanted to emphasize that uh we should really think about it in a sober way and really put it forward and say look this happened and how do we make sure we don't repeat the same in other parts of the world if there is a mistake but if we have done something really good how we can strengthen it in the future and other part of the word as well when the interventions arrive so I think and for all of us I I this is this I've been always trying to go in that direction and I think in terms of future look I think I may I may come pragmatic and naive too both uh pragmatic in a sense that honestly speaking at this moment if you ask me um do you foresee a change just knowing where the political Wills of the capitals are are correct um where we are in the world and how much the Afghanistan fatigue is absolutely true and it should be it's a long-term engagement and that part of the word I may say no I don't know I can't give you time frame correct but if you bring my very much element of being naive uh in in a in a good way because I think sometimes you need to be naive to build that hope when I look back into the history of Afghanistan from 1975 we barely had a sustainable government everything collapsed one after another one after another for for the right reasons I'm not going to say right s re sour Revolution the you know the Russian start with Revolution and then it just moved right and and and and and now even with the former government with it lasted for 20 years with huge investment from the International Community so my question arrives how could Taliban last too long with with as a a very brutal regime that is going even more aggressive on the civilians on a daily basis uh the frustration is at the highest level uh within every single Afghan inside the country and don't and that goes across between men and woman because all those men we always talk about the element of women who are not able to go to school but all those Brothers all those parents and fathers and uh husband that have to see around that their wives are at home their parents their daughters cannot go to school where did that frustration going you know it piles up so uh and then with the very weak economic Vision that they have uh with poor governance complete absence of um services to uh the people then then that's that's where I come and say that by itself will not last it's going to fall correct and and my in my hope with that is completely linked uh okay if that happens then what to my hope is really the younger generation in Afghanistan and that's exactly what you were saying earlier you know starting from those 2010 and 11 and 12 onward and then you know just moving forward um you look at that Generation The Generation that were born post 911 they're 20 years old now right 23 correct and this is a generation that was raised in a relatively stable and open and uh of honest understand that believed in Democratic elements right I spoke to a very young woman and and really when I talked to her I had tears in my eyes and this was um and spring of beginning of this year I met her in New York and she's here on a scholarship studying and then the question came in and I said so what do you wish to do once you uh so and and and of course your question is she you think she's going to say I'm going to apply for this job in the US and because that's and then her right away answer was like well I studied political science because I really wanted to be the next president of Afghanistan right and that that made me emotional that made me that this is and this is a girl who's in her 20s and she is born post 911 and to me that is the Hope right this is this is this is this is who they are she doesn't think in a contained way anymore so that's where I feel you know these are uh the leaders that will bring the change they are committed they're still a goal they try to do their best as much as possible they're equipping themselves with education outside of the country inside the country whatever is available to them and for me I feel we must not if they haven't lost hope we should not lose hope we must really really make sure that that space of that breeding space that's still there that's still raw that's still fresh because it's still three years and my God if it's the fourth and the fifth year it's even harder but we must make sure to invest on those who are inside and really make sure that they they do hear our voices they do hear and think of a brighter future tomorrow uh and and really to me that's that's where the hope is and and the and also identifying this the strong the potential the rising leaders from youngsters because no matter how much we try to frame it from left to right from right to left from any corner I think we come to one point at least in the case of Afghanistan that the trust is gone and then there will be no other Elite from before or from current or from the ones that are right now leading quote unquote under the Taliban umbrella as the Taliban members that could be trusted I think it must be new faces and I think all of us start to invest in those new new faces ien if Ying them and bringing them to the Forefront because they are going to be the one who is going to make the change and they will absolutely I can't think of a better way I'm going to ask you to if you have any final thoughts for our viewers but I I think you're so right about the younger generation and and living under these these terrorists what I've seen in in Afghanistan other places is they they try to they try to perpetuate ignorance and use ignorance to forment hatred and then hatred to justify violence you know and brutality and you have to break that cycle and you have to break at the ignorance part you have to education is so important and reaching the younger generation yeah yes and and we must do it and I think while we're talking here dalan had been much uh smarter and few steps ahead of us they're already investing in so many medas building up and then they're tackling exactly where their strengths were with that very small group of Youth that they had converted to their ideology and they want to expand that Network and I think we shouldn't let that happen we should and and I and I I say this I don't know I'm I'm such a strong supporter of technology I say look we're in 21st century we're thinking about living in Mars can we or Moon not Mars Moon and going to the space can we figure out the solution for a way to get around these firewalls right and Reach people directly in these author can we educate girls at home can we educate this young men who instead of going to the madasa having equipments to just be linked to the rest of the world so I think I feel the hope is not gone we still have a battle in front of us and we can definitely fight it more wisely more effectively more uh andly and and then uh for me I think um that's that's what we should go uh forward because what is happening right now in Afghanistan and even I think you probably heard it and we have heard it even some of the palan leaders they don't themselves know and feel that this is not going to last long and then they're repeating the exact uh cycle that you were referring to impunity building corruption to the highest level and stealing and putting money away wherever they could right gosh Ambassador Adel RZ I can't thank you enough for joining us on on Battlegrounds and helping us learn more about Afghanistan a Battleground that remains vitally important I think to to all of us thank you on behalf of the Hoover institution thank you thank you a McMaster for having me thank you it's just great great to be with you likewise learning from you you are such a rich experience you have I was very much looking forward to speak with you this a great discussion can't I can't thank you enough thank you thank you Battlegrounds is a production of the Hoover institution where we generate and promote ideas advancing freedom 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