IDAHO VS. KOHBERGER HEARING-RAW COURT AUDIO PART 1

this is a special report from True Crime today and the hidden Killers podcast from the hidden Killers podcast I'm Stacy Cole Brian Colberg was back in court for a hearing on a potential change of venue for his capital murder trial let's go now to the courtroom talk where you oh okay oh he thank you I appreciate it all R thank you very much please be seated good morning so let's get on the record please we now on the record this is State versus Brian coburger case number CR 2922 2805 Mr coburger is in the courtroom uh he is represented by Miss Taylor uh Mr Lon and Miss Massa the state is represented by Mr Thompson uh Miss Jennings okay I didn't see you immediately uh Miss bat and Mr NY uh we're here on a motion to change venue from lto County to Ada County filed by the defense um preliminary anything Mr Thompson uh in your not from the state okay thank you Miss Taylor your honor just that there is a stipulation that the court received the exhibits that were filed along with our declaration and our memorandum in support all right so we're talking about all those slides there were like a hundred slides there were a 100 slides honor we're talking about those but in particular the references to all of the media coverage the articles that were contain the table with the links to all of the articles that depict all of the media coverage so are you going to show those publicly or those are for me because I'm the one who has to make the decision those are for you yeah we'll have PowerPoint presentations today but we will not be going through the hundreds of articles that have been provided for the Court's consideration well and thank thankful for that um because I did I did look through all that and I thought oh this would be not a good thing to you know push out to the public because we're trying to protect that right you honor we are and I think it would take an extraordinary amount of court time to try to read through all of the Articles or review all of the bits of uh news coverage that have happened in this case we do intend to offer a little bit of a preview throughout our testimony but certainly not the hundred of Articles and news stories that have existed well that was my other concern so all right um well call your first witness your honor Miss Massa we'll start okay thank you good morning your honor good morning your honor um as we get started here today what I'd like to do is provide you with a road map of where we're going with our Witnesses the standard here is whether there's a reasonable likelihood that pre-ra publicity has affected the impartiality of prospective jurors to establish uh the quantity of pre-trial publicity we will call James Todd Murphy with true scope to establish effect on partiality we will call Dr El Aly to discuss the social science behind your decision making then we will call Dr Brian Edelman about the survey and what it means and finally we will call Dr dare about the validity of the survey methodology we are not calling today Scott sunby but as you listen to testimony today please keep his sworn affidavit in mind with his 39 years of studying Capital juries and teaching at the national judicial College he is considered by the United States Supreme Court an expert in this area he is published this book it's called a life and death decision a jury weighs the death death penalty and this book uh is a culmination of interviews of over 1,200 Capital jurors and how Capital juries make decisions research shows that when a small community creates pressure to impose death an Eighth Amendment violation may occur through these Witnesses today we want to avoid beginning a trial with as Mr sunby States quote a thumb on death side of the scale in quote and with that I call James Todd Murphy thank you come on out way or however you can find your way through uh and please face the FLIR raise your hand you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you give in this case shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the the truth under penalty of perjury I do all right thank you sir please have a seat there and once you're seated please state your name and spell your La James Todd Murphy I go by Todd my middle name last name is m rph y Sir Mr Murphy how are you employed I'm the president of true scope that's spelled t Ru s c o p e it's one word and can you explain what true scope is sure true scope is a media monitoring and Analysis service we wrap our AR arms around all the media types out there can do it on a global level or a geographically isolated level uh normalize all that data from television radio newspapers magazines social media online sources index that with metadata so we know date time placement um we assign sentiment metrics to it and from that we can extract data sets for what our clients need specific to topics or phrases can you explain how you track this media intelligence that you just described sure so we have um feeds that are coming in for example we acquire a feed from X formerly quitter uh we have an online feed that accesses all available online sources uh we have a broadcast feed of TV radio and podcasts all those feeds come into us as they're broadcasted as they're posted as they air or are printed we don't do any modification of the text or the context we just take it as it was provided by the the content owner index story and then when queries against where did you uh travel from to be with us here today uh our North America headquarters are in Omaha Nebraska where I live would you tell the court about your background in media intelligence uh sure might sound cliche but I was born into the business my father acquired press clipping service called Universal press clipping Bureau in 1959 eventually met my mother um without further detail eventually I uh became in existence that's a technical phrase I'm not sure uh so working alongside my father growing up was just part of the DNA I studied psychology and Communications in college and when I graduated um the internet was begin beginning to become a thing uh and so I saw a future of data mining and expanding what was at press Cy Service uh into the future so my full-time employment with universal at the time started in 1991 in King to today beyond your 30 years of experience that you've described and your educational background do you have other qualifications in this area uh yes so um in in the mid 90s I developed a framework for comparative media analysis where we could take those data sets and compare my first project was letting hospitals compare themselves to others to see how one brand of a hospital might compare to another within a community or Market um I also um invented the first multi- chnnel media monitoring software that would let us uh monitor multiple TV channels on one computer and write the Clos caption and text to a database simultaneously uh Innovations not quite as exciting as those continue throughout the years I also made other Acquisitions which I then folded into Universal buying up other monitoring services in Alaska or Wisconsin orever eventually merge my company with with trusco trusco a technology company out of Australia true scope phones Universal Information Services at this point and U we're adding Ai and other natural language processing to what we do Tech what about organizations are you part of any organizations in this field I am um there's a global organization of all media intelligence services called Feb that's spelled f i b as in boy e p as in Paul every continent except the uninhabited ones have have many often multiple media intelligence or media monitoring Services they belong or most belong to this organization uh my peers in this organization eled be president to Le this organization at a global level last year I'm currently the president of feed and have you ever testified um related to your expertise before I have been asked to do that and done yes before you start talking about the data in this case how closely have you followed this case on a factual level I kind of have a personal um standard operating procedure that when a client engages us on on a topic that I what I feel bar compy may become contentious or or may have Downstream effects where I might be called to objectively testify I purposely removed myself from evaluating the content of the data set related to the subjects that are passing us to monitor so while I have made myself familiar with the search strategy the keywords the phrases which would include the defendant's name and and the family uh names of the the students that are victims I have done very little uh I paid very little attention to the media exposure on this in fact I just learned that the judge of this case has a last name that sounds like he was born for this role that was last night I didn't know who the judge was coincidence my apologies for not knowing who you were until last night thank you are you familiar with Miss soier who testified last year in this case yes Jean soier is by rightand person she's a senior vice president of client success uh she has a media measurement background um that started years before she came to be under my employment I would venture to say she's as much of an expert in this area as I am and if she was actually here I'd probably say she's more of an expert but since she's not for myself so for context purposes when she testified about data in true scope is it the same set of data that you've just testified to exact same data we work at the same company we have access to the exact tools she works with clients directly as yourself and I work directly with her how is true scope using media intelligence in this case uh we I'll just I'll say it maybe functionally we have been asked by you our client to track specific topics related to this case names um Associated and and I might say the more unique phrases the more accurate our media monitoring can be if if the name was John Smith and Susan Jones then we have to do much more Boolean logic apply more Boolean logic to make sure that we're focused on extracting it story specific so for you we've built a search query using buan logic in AI to focus on the stories that are of interest in this case uh the second half of what we're doing so that's the media monitoring we first capture the data that creates a data set then that data set is analyzed by our analysis team which is led by Cheryl Lewis th h r i l Le LW um and she has an assistant analy to they're trained in a way that we call uh cross coder proficiency so whether Cheryl analyzes a story or carryed it they analyze it in the same manner that also creates a check in balance that if something in the media monitoring function uh picks up a story that matches the name judge judge but for some reason is it the judge judge associated with this case the analysts then a human level can say that's the wrong judge judge and it would be removed from the data set at the analysis level what objectives is true scope trying to achieve in this case uh we've been primarily asked to look at the um what without even being hyperbolic would say an extreme amount of media cover um its impact on a population or a commity um and a statistical volume of that media exposure on various communities um across the us but focused on several counties within how long has true scope been Gathering data um for Mr cober's case I believe we were engaged on February 15 2023 we have some ability to pull some data forward from that time but that's when technically the the engag with p and you've talked about the the media types um and the data that's gathered is it spe is area or location of media coverage able to be determined yes in most cases um maybe I'll separate that into two areas of media uh you have traditional media which would be television radio newspapers magazines uh even online news sources those are all tied to a specific city and state um you have the Moscow Daily News and the metadata that we have attached to that Source would say okay that publication name is in the city of Moscow in the state of Idaho and has a circulation figure of I'll say hypothetically 3,000 years I I don't know the exact circulation of that specific for television um each television news affiliate local news comes from what's called a local news affiliate it may be the ABC affiliate but it may have call letters such as KX l y I think is one of the Spokan channels and they may be an NBC or ABC affiliate but they're the local affiliates who's in charge of beiring local news and neon uh media data neon Services you may have heard of neelson um foxes and Market LS and things like that they know that that station is in this city in this state um and each affiliate is part of a dma a designated market area stop me if I'm going too far down the rav but a designated market area although the news may come out of Spokane Washington the designated market area is a radius around that that can take in additional cities counties and and functional level consumers of news viewers in this case is frequency of media coverage able to be determined yeah we um since on television newspapers online um demographics can change over time can change uh By Day so a good example of of frequency why why frequency matters uh a local news affiliate might have a 600 to 7: a.m. newscast a midday newscast a 5:00 pm and a 10 p.m. depending on what times and your those can be adjusted based on network but let's say that they ran a story about anything they might have running in the morning where the demographic skew one way they might running at at midday which might have a much smaller audience or potential viewership they might run at 5:00 which would have people who come home from work early or those who who are unemployed and then at 10:00 generally is can be the largest audience so knowing what time they're running lets us know the demographics the audience and even a vity metric called ad values we won't get into that but what time of story airs and how many times it runs we aggregate that and we can say okay this story ran four times on this channel on one day and had a total viewership potential of say 50,000 that doesn't mean I watched it at all four times that just means the viewership at each of those times has the potential to see it and that's where comes are there types of media coverage that truth spoke does not gather we don't track anything that's illegal um we don't go behind um we don't penetrate penetrate privacy rules such as your personal Facebook pages if they're marked to private um we also don't look at um streaming entertainment channels such as peacock Hulu where the content on those channels often is broadcast originally on in a specific time zone we call that an ephemeral broadcast where it it aired at 5:00 and then was lost to to The Ether but but Hulu and those stream channels give the opportunity for that story then to be posted and you can watch at your leisure in a in a Time shifting we don't monitor those adjacent streaming channels a because they're subscription based demographics are different and we already have the content as it was aired originally I'm going to hand you what's been um stipulated ated and admitted as a part of Exhibit C I've shown the state your honor thank you can you tell the the court what that is that is a very base level spreadsheet of all the media exposure uh just get some of the topic specific to this um account that you've engaged us for including the topics that you've specified we monitor for your account it includes various things like the type of media so it might be Twitter or um French or broadcast it would include the metadata we include uh city state um circulation viewership um things like that there's also hyperlinks because a client of ours you would receive if you exported this from your workspace or we exported it for you you would have a hyperlink you would click on that because we have a cookie on your computer it would open that hyperlink and you could see the full story um unless it's an online story or a social media story then we take you directly to that end source so if it's Moscow dailynews.com and it's in front of their pay wall if you would click on that link and you can view that store yourself is Exhibit C in front of you speciic specific to Le County yes I see under County spot checking it and spinning through where it can be determined either all L County um related some of them are cities within L county is is the list of uh exhibit see approximately 1360 um Ines long yes I can confirm that's the the number of rows which and each row would indicate a individual media mention or also known as a media story an article or a news story on a broadcast and you're on I won't have him hand that to you now but for purposes of the record that will be a paper copy for the courts file you have that in an Excel spreadsheet that's much easier to read than what is in paper in there right okay so this was uh agreed by state too so I just want to make sure because I have uh the exhibit um C also that was attached to your brief which is which is 300 pages so but then we have the additional C which is more uh I guess plough so this this is a part of of C related to True scope which is this list of the 1300 um stories and then I'm about to get into the other part of Exhibit C which is true scope's report okay okay great thank you just wanted to clear that up did you prepare some other documents that represent media coverage in four counties in Idaho for this case uh we did once TR scope had had and it's an ongoing thing we're constantly monitoring your news so even even this morning you would have received a report of any media exposure that has happened since yesterday morning it runs on a phun hour where we would we send we push out a report to the clients but we're collecting it in real time so if a client wanted to look at the workspace at 3m. today all that news would be in there um I may have digressed from your question that's coming to hand you make it okay this is the second part of of c and I'm going to put that in front of you because it might be easier to see you've got two screens yes that was the second part of my answer uh we did prepare a media measurement analysis um Cher Le's team and and that's part of the combination services that we provided okay looking at this page here can you please explain to the court with this is sure you have two pie charts on the left you have the volume of media coverage uh specific to the keywords and phrases searched for our client um related to this case you see on the left out of all the media coverage between January of 202 in July 15th 36% of that coverage or just over 30 36% of that was seen um or had the opportunity to be seen in L County on the right side you have a another pie chart that shows the population of Idaho um and it shows what percentage Leal County represents the total percentage of idah which is 2.75% on the second bullet point of of notes there there's some reference to census can you explain um that that note sure the census data used for this one from believe July of 23 um of the 49 thou 4,924 people in L to County uh we were asked to look at age eligible to serve on jury duty um amongst all of that the the people in the county which created the 61% or just under 25,000 people of the nearly 41,000 all are age eligible to serve on the jury right L going to the the next page what does this page tell the court this is the same analysis framework performed on a different County uh again on the left you see the total media coverage you know Idaho for the same date range um but 34% uh of immedate coverage was seen in Ada County uh which is just a couple percentage points below that of leita County the primary difference is the right hand pie chart which shows the population of adaa County relative to all of Idaho and um it's it's over a quarter of the state po or 26.42% what conclusions do you draw when you compare the the two counties uh data there's a lot more people in Ada County um and where I would be going with that as a a media analysis um when I would interpret this from a media analysis perspective is the propensity to dilute the media exposure in a larger population is um factual function of that if you have a certain number of stories divided by the population the number of stores a person can see is fewer if a population is larger that answer your question I I'll I'll follow up with another specific one out of the two counties where is the um most opportunity for a resident to view uh stories about this case it's by far an Ada County um when we did the analysis of the age eligible process um nearly 300,000 people in Ada County are jury age eligible compared to just under 25,000 is L I'm GNA I'm going to dis ask my question again it was probably in Artful on my part it do do more people in lto county is there more saturation of lto County or more saturation with media coverage in a county yes person in L County would be exposed to far more media coverage Than People a community in can we now switch to um the third slide what does this show this adds in two additional counties that we were asked to look at um it reflects media exposure specific to banic and Canyon counties and what what and and then there's also a great area R of Idaho you just want to explain what we see here sure so if you look at the volume of media coverage for the same um f range like the first two lto ad and then four counties we're looking at out of all the media exposure for the state of Idaho Leah received 36% adaah had 27% banic 1.56 and Canyon just over 3% theid just third of so outside those four counties the rest of the counties in Idaho for the rest of the people that the rest of the regions in Idaho would have been exposed to approximately 31.5% of the exposure you turn next to uh I believe it's page five explain what opport opportunities to be seen um are and the differences in the counties sure so in this P again we're looking at the same day braing um opportunities to be seen um are maybe best described relative to probability versus possibility each person in any of these four counties or the rest of Idaho for that matter have the have an equal possib to see a story um it's like flipping a coin you can flip a coin 100 times and the possibility of it coming up heads is equal every time the probability of it coming up heads every time is much different probability is a mathematical statement a a quantitative measure um and so opportunities to be seen are um dependent on the media type so we measure opportunities to be seen for say newspapers based on their circulation these are paid um subscribers who you then infer pay to receive that news they consume that news um television has neelson audience figures neelson measures those in smaller markets quarterly in larger markets six times a year I believe any of the broadcast markets we're talking about and the DNA is affecting this pie chart would be measured close uh so opportunities to be seen are the possibility that people in that county would see it um it's the volume of those opportunities that creates the potential opportunity um or probability that they've been exposed to X number of Articles or media mentions discret articles stories about this topic you have you're having us track the numbers reflected on the pie chart show that over half of those opportunities to be seen reside um within Lea County nearly 60% or 57.3% uh the opportunities to be seen per person in adaa county is 31.2% not not quite half but but but nearly half the opportunities and that's a simple mathematical function of all the media exposure in that county divided by the population for in this case potentially age eligible for jury to be population and in in terms of the the green sliver there Canyon County Canyon County is close to Ada and so if we um assume that Kenyon County residents might review Ada County news with its population of 180,000 is uh the delution of lto County or the the I the the delution of Canyon County still significantly um greater than the saturation in Leah County if I understand the question correctly how I may answer that is Canyon and I would also say banic unless you don't want me to mention the media exposure specific to those counties is St statistically insignificant relative to the rest of Idaho Le County county in fact if you combined all those two and group them into uh either one of those it wouldn't change the inferences that we make on the data between dat and R can you change turn to the um next slide now tell the Court which line represents which county and the color sure the darker line um the red line is maybe the easier one to see that's Ada County in the darker line um it's a blue or might look black on the screen uh is C and for judge for your purposes this is C1 that was filed with a reply which is an update from the original memorandum um to include uh a more re a more recent date the date that we uh filed August 19th the reply so I don't know what what one you're looking at but the one on your computer screen is the one that that we're talking about right now thank you tell me that could you explain Mr Murphy what uh the purpose of showing this over time does for the court yeah one of the more interesting charts that we develop for our clients is media coverage over time and in this case we're looking at January 1st of 23 through August 19th of 24 if you look at the red line which is Ada County you can see that um aside from May 2023 uh it often lags um by volume of coverage behind lto County in in most cases by 50% or more of the media coverage so by rephrase that in maybe simpler terms uh the media exposure in Ada County for the majority of time between January 2023 and August continuing into August 2024 has been uh far less in a county than in county and what can you tell from this the Spikes have you correlated those with uh case events sure um it might be um convenient to to look at it analogous to maybe a stock portfolio often times a peak is followed by a valley unless you invest in Nidia but um May 2023 you see 198 stories I believe that um highest peak for Ada County was um the indictment is what's driving that Peak now when you compare that to Lake County I I can see that moving towards that indictment there was ongoing media coverage so while adaa it had a quick uptick and and what I would call um a fairly slow Decay because of the extreme nature of of the topic of the story uh when we look at Leah County it is more consistent and after the indictment Lea County passes uh media coverage over time consistently up through August of this year and this was filed with the court on August 19th and we're here on August uh 29th have you been able to review and see what's going on with the coverage regarding this case right now as we sit here yeah I took a look um Tuesday I started seeing the media exposure ticking up again um it uh it was fairly High yesterday um in my professional opinion I would wager it's going to be extremely high today um and that's that's a function of public interest in an extreme news story uh a story you may have heard the phrase this story has legs a story that is Extreme unique atypical has greater legs and say high school football scores you're here on the 10:00 news on a Friday night those would have a very um fast decay of memory on consuming viewers um this type of story will remain on the mind and be of interest up to and Beyond the conclusion of of this case however that might be would you uh flip to the next slide this this green line uh what does it show uh it shows somewhat of a similar pattern across the entire country it's the same date range it's also showing media coverage over time but it's looking at all media exposure Nationwide so while um you feel things very acutely locally um even a story as Extreme as this uh Garner less less interest the further you get away um from the the local community and to um look at this on a nationwide chart like this you can see it it's it remains in the mind and these are large numbers the indictment of over 13,260 or or 13268 media mentions on May 2023 shows that the nation was interested in it but that decay has been faster on a nationwide level just because according to the decay of engagement on new stories the further you get away the I don't mean to sound callous but the less interesting it is if you're in Florida than if you are in county or something so in in terms of looking at Decay I want to ask this in in uh the context of the story waning uh for the Court's purposes of projecting say you know months down the line next year at at trial based on the data that you're seeing is this story waning in the news no and in fact if we could make one more line on any of these media coverage over time charts you would see an UPS slope um on the first one this chart so you already see it ticking up one I compared L to Ada um if we could bring that chart forward to today you would see that going up and that will be consistent anytime uh this case has uh significant news or signifant hearing uh in Lea and County it will be of interest um and I would say that the delta or the difference between Lea and Ada County will continue to be statistically similar it will probably potentially always be of Greater interest interest in Leah County than in a county not to diminish the interest in a county it's just I believe it's further away than count the alleg crime committ or the crime Comm is NES Pur uh and Leon a part are they a part of Leo County's designated market area to myled yes what does that mean for Leon and NES Purge to be a part of the designated market area they talk uh that's real simple if the population bu County or cities nees is a county Le is a city okay so um the population of those I guess could you rephrase the question are the what does it mean for those uh for NES Pur County and Leon City to be a part of the lto county designated market area okay so that would increase the population um of people that have opportunities to see the story within the same designated market area so if in your if you're in Leah County you have the same potential to see the stories in n nepar and Le does that change the mathematical outcome of of the the original pie charts we looked at those two counties combined with Leal County would have to exceed the population of ADA counted in order for this Dynamic to change I don't know how many people are exactly in each of those counties but together with Le County they exceed 295,000 potential jury eligible Jers then you might be able to say the impact on impact from the media on those two populations for exposure to Media could be equal but if n Pierce and Le fin are smaller counties and together with lah are still significantly lower than ad County that's not going to change the determination I made in this I have no further questions thank you uh so miss than examination just briefly good morning sir just for my own clarification on those pie charts when it says Leah County and Ada County are you limiting that to the boundaries of the specific County or are you talking about the broader designated market area when the um what we're looking at is Media mentioned that impacted the county the county specifically right so thank you sir yeah so in looking at those line graphs that you presented I noticed that they started in January of 2023 correct so December of 2022 Mr cober was arrested were you making were you able to make any determinations of media coverage in December of 2022 at the time Mr cger was arrested we were not engaged nor tracking the media okay and that's not possible to go back and trap that we can do um what's called a back search but we can't um certain media types of expire online news links social media might have been taken down so you can do it I wouldn't say I would present it with contra thank you I can show you a number so fair to say though that there probably would have been a pretty substantial Spike at that time as well I would say yes and possibly although you can't say for sure that Spike could have been even higher than any of the other spikes on this on this graft possibly the possibility exists thank you sir so for the first six months on this chart of volume of media coverage over time for latop and Ada County Ada County had more intense media coverage in January February March April May and then June and then in July there's that there's a crossover where Leah county is higher than Ada County so fair to say for that first six months Ada County did have at times fairly significantly more media coverage than Lea County correct okay and Council talk with you about these Peaks and how they correspond with specific events in the case such as Court hearings would you expect that if the court were to make a decision to start closing certain hearings particularly evidentiary hearings as we approach trial that that would be a mitigating factor that would decrease the amount of media coverage in this case uh I can't say yes or no on that I I would say it depends if those closed meetings were a public record then the media most likely that's following this would still um have a high probability of reporting on it they may just not have any um image or interviews or some of the uh elements that go into a more engaging news so the coverage might be less intense uh intense is a qualification that I'm not able to make I can't tell you how some how intense something impacts you as a as a viewer or a consumer needless sure thank you and I noticed in that chart of Le County and Ada County coverage that in the last couple months those that coverage intensity in both of those counties has become pretty close again is that fair to say uh yeah yes and so based on these charts it's really not beyond the realm of possibility that Ada County could again surpass lto County in coverage at least at certain points correct again there's a equal chance of possibility the probability based on the data I would say is no in my professional opinion we've already seen an uptick and it appears that in a County uh the news is much more focused in attentive even to what I might consider a less weighted story I think there was a story recently about a Memorial Garden or something that this County garnered quite a bit of media exposure but that that's logical sure well in July in June of 2024 it looks like they got so close that they were just two points apart is that correct Lea County just two points above yeah and you're not willing to testify that there's a possibility that Ada County could potentially surpass Le County in the future I'll absolutely guarantee that possibilities are always equally available thank you sir I have no further questions okay thank you m b m mat Mr Murphy in terms of this discussion on uh adaah versus L talk you mentioned the neelson rankings could you please tell the court the difference between the Neel what the neelson ranking is and then I'll follow up with uh what what leas is and what uh eight counties is so what's the what's a Neilson R sure so I don't assume that most people have heard of the neelon ratings but anyone who's involved with selling advertising or the news media knows that neelon for more than 50 years has measured the top 200 designated Market areas New York City is number one it's the largest dma the media in that market reaches the most people and so it's a measure of how many so active news consumers is the way I would describe it are in a in a a city or a city's area I know we're looking at counties but your designated market area here in lto County uh all under the radius I think I mentioned for earlier SP in Washington in Ada County they designated market area Bo out a different deal and what's the dton ranking of leop County uh it's ranked 64 out of 210 and and what is Boise 97 I have nothing so I should follow up and say in terms of how that's measured 64 mean that that is a higher rank than Boise at 97 the dma in which L County resides has far more um opportunities for media stories to be seen based on the strength of the dma as you get down to the smaller dmas for example lend Montana has historically been Market 210 last they have one CBS affiliate there's just not a lot of news com together an area a dma but on the two counties you you're talking about they reside in a BMA that's 64 for lto County a larger BMA is going to have uh more media opportunities to be seen uh and more media Outlets available as you get to smaller markets you have fewer and fewer media Outlets serving there nothing further thank you thank you B nothing for the state your honor thank you okay this uh winess be excused he can your honor and the exhibits that are um with him can go for you for the Court's paper file for the record thank you hey sir you're free to leave or you're free to save thank you appreciate it being here thank you thank you are very small letters I agree your honor it was really hard to get them on one page sorry about that thank you uh why don't we take a quick Break um and maybe come back at uh 1020 thank you this has been a special report from True Crime today and the hidden Killers podcast