Tim Walz Is Kamala Harris’ V.P. Pick. Watch Our Interview With Him.

I've watched a lot of presidential campaigns and I can't remember one where the contest for who is going to be the next Democratic Vice Presidential nominee has played out quite so publicly you've been in contact with the Harris campaign uh have they said to you we'd like you to be the choice I Jonathan I'm not going to get in into any of that well what I can tell you is it is an honor to be considered you're being vetted you you know yeah you know you know when you're being Ved I may vet you I'm going to vet you right now uh please don't please don't and that's allowed for some voices and figures to break through who you might not have imagined before and foremost among them is Minnesota Governor Tim Waltz I don't think anybody else in the party has shot as rapidly from somebody who fairly few people had heard of I mean you know if you follow who's the chair of the Democratic governor Association you might have known him uh to somebody that all of a sudden is on the short list all of a sudden has a loud proud excited online fan base and not just that but but somebody who has changed the entire rest of the democratic party's messaging and what began it the the the core of waltz's slingshot to National prominence was one interview on Morning Joe I think this is going back to the bread and butter getting away from this division we do not like what is Happ where we can't even go to Thanksgiving dinner with our uncle because you end up in some weird fight that is unnecessary and and I think bringing back people together well it's true these guys are just weird and and you know they're running for keyman women Haters Club or something that's what they go at that's not what people are interested in that was the interview heard around the Democratic party I remember it it hit me on social media I saw that and thought oh that that really connects and then all of a sudden it was all you heard from Democrats right weird weird weird these guys are weird they're weird and creepy have you ever see this guy like when he's on the stage he like kind of meanders over you know can't really walk well and he goes over to the flag and he like hugs the flag I I love the flag but it's a weird thing he does right some of what he and his running mate are saying well it's just playing weird JD V is awfully weird a super weird idea from JD Vance just weird I mean they really are yeah it's not I mean it's quite weird but it's also offensive it's not just a a weird style that he brings it's that this leads to weird policies well that that was a weird comment that definitely is weird and some of the different things and positions they've taken is seems fairly weird to me Joe Mansion of all people saying things are weird what is this role why why did this connect this way uh part of it I think is that weird got at something Democrats have had trouble walking the line on which is on the one hand There's real threat from Donald Trump and the Republicans and on the other hand to endlessly talking about them in these existential terms to make them this sort of Mythic Global right-wing populist bogeyman also gives a power to people that maybe they don't deserve maybe they don't even really hold right maybe this is all built a little bit on sand on the other hand this is a tricky argument to make because it's very easy for it to fall into something that does bevil Democrats which is moving from a critique of Republican politicians to a critique of the people who vote for Republicans right you can imagine this overstepping and becoming a little bit more like Hillary Clinton's deplorables comment but Waltz makes this argument from a very different place he makes it with a very different record he has won repeatedly in a congressional district that was quite red a congressional district that heavily favored Donald Trump he is the popular and highly accomplished governor of a Midwestern State he comes from his himself a very small town and he's very careful about this boundary you'll hear that here between what he is talking about in Republican politicians and the way democrats should be talking to Republicans and voters who support Republicans so I've been curious to hear uh while let's go a little bit deeper on all this and I invited him on the show he was kind enough to accept as always my email as reclin show NY times.com [Music] Governor Waltz welcome to the show thanks for having me Ezra so you told my old friend The Washington Post columnist EJ Dion that you don't win elections to bank political Capital you win elections to burn the capital to improve lives talk to me about that theory of politics yeah I think it's a it's a Minnesota mant too I think that's you know I would be remiss if I didn't those that came before Paul wellstone talked about that a lot the idea the why you're in this is is to collectively try and make sure that you can improve folks lives that you can give them opportunities and I think too often we get into this that there's a cautiousness around I got elected if I get a little too aggressive on certain things it'll make it more difficult to get reelected which the whole point is you got there to whether it was school lunches or Paid Family Medical Leave you're there now why don't you get that done now and I made the case that if we can get everything done in one session then I won't have to do this again and I can move on and I think that that attitude inspires people to to get going to find Solutions and and to move so I not to get reelected it's to get the work done if you can get it done fast do it you all passed so much after you got that governing Trifecta and did so fast I don't think we can cover it all here but but I did want to try to pull together one thread which is I've heard you talk about uh an ambition to make Minesota the best place to raise a kid obviously families and support for families is something that the JD Vance and the Republicans want to put at the center of the election but there's a question of what that Nets out to and best place to raise a kid I think is a good way of thinking about it so tell me about that dimension of it what what would what did you pass that made Minnesota a better place to to raise a CH a child yeah when I talk about making sure it's the best place to raise a child that means that everybody has Health Care especially women they've got access to prenatal care uh it makes sure that affordable housing is at a foundational piece it makes sure that uh food security is at a piece and then you can start moving into the things around children all day kindergarten making sure that uh daycare is is Affordable and we're getting more daycare providers we passed the most generous child tax credit $1,750 for every child you have uh up until their age 18 and then this year we accelerated that so quarterly we start to put that out those are things that we know during the pandemic the federal government did that and we reduced childhood poverty in this country at a greater rate than at any time in our history we had a 30% drop in childhood poverty during the pandemic because of those accelerated child tax credit it expired Minnesota picked it up and and and grew it and so what you end up getting is is you've get stability around housing you get stability around healthare you get stability around food security and then you make sure that parents are given those options around child care and once that starts to happen you start to see things take off and and lo and behold and I mean this is ideologically a you know JD Vance would vote against all those things just he would and I don't think he would deny that the the the difference there is is that this makes it so much easier to actually have children it's super expensive now it's super hard it really is people aren't sitting around in the bar talking about banning uh you know Animal Farm they're sitting in the bar talking about how expensive Child Care is and how we going to get it I I don't want to beat up on JD Vance here too much but you mentioned the child tax credit and one of the things that I found very strange in the way Vance and some Republicans behind him a clearly sort of online Republican World he's coming out of have been talking about this he had some comments where he said look we want to disincentivize bad things and so if you are single and childless you should pay higher taxes and on the one hand that's one way to describe what the child tax credit is and I'm a big fan of the child tax credit and it's also uh one of the worst possible ways I could have possibly imagined to to sell the the child tax credit there is and there it's come up in some other clips of him that have did he articulate that Ezra he artic ulated this completely straightforwardly he said elsewhere that not having kids makes you more deranged and sociopathic there's a a sort of emergent rhetoric there about that's not exactly pro- family it's anti not having a family or even not having one yes and that's just struck me as a very strange shift to to make to take something that is extremely in the mainstream of political rhetoric invert it so you've made it a highly polarizing issue I'm curious how it's read to you the word you're looking for for is weird probably we get done with that no it is a strange thing and I think you're right but that that's the interesting thing behind this guy I said he was created in the you know the Heritage lab that's the ideology of some of these Fringe groups behind him in my opinion that very well may might might be right and it's it's buried it it's you know it is a bit cynical as a way to put it but I'll have to tell you this childhood tax credit is is really popular except you're right there are folks that are saying well I didn't get my tax credit at the my you know cut at the top these guys got it you're incentivizing these out of wedlock bursts and look you didn't even put a cap on it Governor you could claim 10 children on this thing that that's exactly right you could and our case on this is you get to make your own choices and again I'm not going to shy away from our entire tax system in Minnesota is rated the most fair in the country which means it's Progressive it is a progressive tax credit so does good policy here lead to good politics and and I'm thinking here specifically of the child tax credit my favorite thing in the American Rescue plan was the heavily expanded child tax credit Democrats set that um where it could expire after a year they're thinking federally when they did this was that people would be so excited about the child tax credit so happy about it that it would build the political momentum to get it uh continued or even made permanent after that year and they're wrong it expired Republicans would would not renew it at least at that time um and I think that's been true for a number of things on the Biden agenda that Democrats are very proud of the inflation reduction act the infrastructure B bill that have not led to self-fulfilling political benefits right they've not created their own future constituencies why do you think that is some of it might be the messaging that they do they're distracting them with you know crazy stories they're telling and some of it good I'll I'll accept responsibility this I don't think we do a good enough job of telling what we did life's complicated people don't know I think a lot of people don't even didn't know they were getting the credit or how it was coming from you know I hear people complain that we had a surplus and we went through it yeah that's because we reduced taxes massively on working people the cousin of the tax credit in Minnesota is the free breakfast and lunch and what was really interesting about that was is we implemented it we passed it we implement we went in this year and guess what happened tons of people used it so it actually ran that it was going to need some more money into it the Republicans came right away and said we're going to be running a deficit in you know it's like six years out we're AAA Bond rated so it's solid so they look six years out if this program stays it's going to be running a deficit at some point in time we need to cut it fundamental they believe you're you're giving away free things to people don't do it and we know all those free breakfast and free lunch has massive gains so I would go back to your original question I think the child tax credit is a little maybe it's a little more complex um it it targets people look in Minnesota we had to go out and work really hard because the people most targeted because of our progressive tax code don't file taxes if you don't file taxes you don't get the credit so we had to go out door too get people to sign up file a tax return to get your credit it so these are folks that look they're working they're busy they're not as engaged and and if you don't put it in permanently where's the constituency to come argue those families aren't going to be up at state capital advocating for expansion of the the child tax credit unless we're more aggressive and tell the story do Democrats sometimes make their policy too complex because I've seen this clip going around of you defending why you didn't beans test the school lunch right it would save money why are you paying for lunch for the children of of Rich parents right you could you know there's always that you know why am I paying for you know Bill gates' kids lunch right whenever you think about making something isn't that fascinating that yeah Republicans saying well we don't need to give tax cuts to the wealthy that's how they argued it around that you shouldn't be giving tax cuts to the wealthy but at the same hand they were they were advocating for an income tax cut on the top bracket so no hypocrisy exactly no no free stuff to the wealthy but definitely huge tax cuts to the wealthy so you argued that it should be Universal the universality made it simpler how do you think about the tradeoffs of of complex and and the means testing that creates complexity and the politics of of Simplicity and and universality yeah that is a good one and and the purpose of that was is a guy who supervised the High School lunchroom for 20 years all of us who did that had our own accounts because kids would run out of money and you would put it in and that lunchroom then became a very clear Have and Have Nots and in fact until you know some schools maybe still do it you had a different colored lunch ticket if you're on free and reduced lunch free and reduced lunch also meant you had to fill out paperwork that there was not going to be a division in that lunch it was going to be eat don't worry about it come in you don't have to have a ticket you don't have to do that and what it did was it started to break down barriers and what we saw was just very basic things around this first of all attendance went up we saw huge usage of this and we saw classroom behaviors go go down well no surprise there science shows us the kids are hungry uh there's going to be more problems and so I'm not certain that we do think that through and there's always the the balance between protecting these programs they'll complain about them they're too expensive in trying to make them as e easy and as efficient as possible and and we're we're trying to figure better ways to do that but I I I do think you're right I think Democrats get complex we think these things true in a way that a lot of times makes sense but it ends up then becoming very cumbersome or becomes we didn't qualify before we do now it's an absolute tax cut for us but it's an absolute Lifesaver for me that I don't have to get up in the morning and either make breakfast or send one to school for this so it's a double benefit for us I have less work my kids eat so it was actually middle class folks who were most jazzed about this I I will say I am so thrilled whenever my kids are in a situation where lunch is provided for them because for me I I'm busy I get the time with them in the morning yes and the question of whether I'm spending the the time I could have with them in the morning making everybody lunch or getting to enjoy my children yes and again remove yourself from the moral idea that a kid should have a full belly and you know in a Land of Plenty there's enough to go around we're going to have healthier kids with better attendance that provide a better Workforce at the end of the day that and so you can save money again we know this if you provide preventative care it's a lot better you know you can keep some keep somebody from getting diabetes a lot cheaper than getting them on there where you have to pay for it and that's the same thing here start them out healthy get them there feed him get him an education so you've had a hell of a couple of weeks and I don't think I've ever seen any single person including for that matter president changed an entire party's messaging the way your Riff on Morning Joe on the weirdness of trump and JD Vance and sort of Republicans of their ilk did I mean now it's all that any Democrat says I mean I heard J I heard Joe Mansion calling JD Vance weird today I when that messaging has hit Joe Mansion Something's Happened so so that connected in a way I I I almost can't remember anything connecting but you've been using that word for a while when a lot of other Democrats are using you know existential terrifying undemocratic I'm not saying you don't believe those things but but why for you weird yeah all those things are true about an existential threat to Global Peace in my opinion a threat to women's reproductive I think that very clearly a desire to strip constitutional power and division all of those things are true and for me as as a teacher you couldn't make your case why people were in that mindset when they're in a fear mindset it's very difficult for them to listen and they kept hearing that and again our Democrats kept making that democracy's on the ballot you have to yes we know that's true and we're scared to death it's the emperor wearing no clothes is what it is all this story is the minute you said that the spell broke it dropped down this guy's weird stories and inability to connect like a human being on any way and I made the C see if you see him laugh he doesn't laugh unless he's laughing at some someone and what happened was the minute that spell came down the minute everybody in the crowd realized the emperor wasn't wearing any clothes we can sweep in and say who's asking to ban birth control who's asking to ban these books who's asking to take veterans benefits away and then we come in and say look KLA Harris is is talking about making sure that you have expanded Healthcare making sure there's daycare available making sure that it's easier to get free school lunches they're talking about on a national level that's where that came from and weird is it's specifically to him I'm certainly not talking about Republicans I'm not talking about the people who are at those rallies um these are my I'm hearing this from my Republican friends because the people at those rallies they're the ones that can most benefit from the message we're delivering I looked at him the other night in St Cloud Minnesota young women behind him were're going to provide reproductive care for them I saw a group holding Somali for Trump we have a large Somali population we're very proud of that Donald Trump has said we're going to have a Muslim ban and he talked about you know congresswoman Omar and the Somali Community as being so detrimental rather than an asset to this so we're going to take care of those people too and I think this is where Trump and his people get so excited what do they have if they don't have that fear what if they have if there's not a dystopian Society what do they have if only dear leader can come in and fix it if people are saying actually I'd like to have cheaper daycare um I'd actually like them to quit talking about this and I really don't care who somebody's married to because I believe the vast majority of people really don't want to be in other people's bedrooms and I use the thing of small town this where JD Vance doesn't get you survive best by just mind your own damn business just stay out of people's business I I I want to get at this distinction you're making between Trump or Vance or the the leaders or the policy makers and and the crowds because I I think the one of the most dangerous emotions that uh Democrats sometimes let slip right the sort of negative side of I think the the the liberal personality uh can be a kind of contempt a a kind of smugness this is why Hillary Clinton's comment on deplorables what was so damaging there is a sense among many people that these sort that these educated liberals look down on them they think they're retrograde they think they're stupid Republicans have a lot of negative uh personality traits too rage anger conspiratorial thinking but but condescension and smugness could be could be pretty lethal for for Democrats and agreed one of the things I have heard some Democrats worry about as the sort of whole party has taken up weird all at once was you have a very calibrated way of talking about this not everybody does and it becoming a thing that it sounds like Democrats are saying about all these people who support Donald Trump and who do like him all these people who feel left behind and left out of the the Democratic Coalition how do you how do you police that boundary this is where I get I take offense to JD Vance and in hillbilly El those are my people I I come from a town of 400 24 kids in a class 12 cousins farming those types of things that that is there and I know they're not that I know they're not weird I know they're not Donald Trump the thing is we have to get them away from what he's trying to sell because that's not who they are I mentioned just picturing your mind Donald Trump coming home after day of work and picking up a Frisbee and throwing it and his dog catches it and the dog runs over and he gives him a good belly rub because he's a good boy that's what I do and that's what those rally goers do that is exactly who they are and they're going through the same things all of our families are he's captured some of this because I think you're right you people have forgotten me or the you know the entertainment value of whatever he's done and and fear is scary I mean the world is changing we're seeing you know conflict in the Middle East we we saw a global pandemic which he did nothing to fix but but seized upon and then I think it's kind of breaking that spell again of saying look he's not offering you anything and then we dang sure better be ready to offer something if we can't offer something that impacts their lives like these policies that's why I say Republicans they may not admit it they love the free School meals and lunch I guarantee you a lot of them like Paid Family and Medical Leave small employers who couldn't afford to compete against a best buying Target who offered paid family medical leave now could offer and recruit employees so now they're saying look I'm paying a little bit into this with program works my employees are loyal to me and boy they can go home and be with their kids and keep them healthy it's just we have to show them that this isn't there's nothing strange about this you know they'll try and say this Ultra liberal that's where we need to be more specific oh do you mean the the free school lunches is that what you are the roads and bridges we built in this town is that what you're speaking about Governor you spent a surplus money on this yeah you mean when we eliminated Social Security tax for most of seniors is that that's the one that most bothers you there's never a specific they don't give you a specific on what what the liberal agenda is and we have to do a better job of saying this is what it is this is the things that you're getting you ever read Hill bology I did I did years ago I I read it years ago and I've been reading it this week and I'm going to say more about this in a future episode but it's a little bit of a shocking reread I remember not thinking all that much of it then but I was interested in as same same but he's very it feels like he's predicting himself now when when you read it I mean he talks about one of the big points in early in the book is he says this is a story about people in a hard situation responding to it and I'm paraphrasing in the worst possible way with anger with resentment with sort of scapegoating of others without sort of personal responsibility see I took that very personally that he was wrong like putting us into that mix yeah tell me about that because then there's also this thing where Vance is separating himself from that in that book and then in a strange way in his own political Evolution becomes more like the thing he is describing negatively in the book his whole politics becomes fting everybody did this to us this sort of anger at Outsiders this contempt for other people this like the the sort of like want to punch you in the face politics and I mean I've I've never read a more psych like the the read of this book psychologically changes so much from who he was in to who he is now but also how he's talking about people is really a a a liberal would never talk about people in the places he's from like that no that's that's why I take offense to it when you know that's taking offense to that that's not my people and and then I'm making the case that there is something and it's not about putting blame look societal changes uh practi is in agriculture you're going to see a migration of of population patterns but you're also going to see those that accelerated that those that took advantage of that Trump and JD Vans who are telling you we need to do school vouchers how are you going to get a private school in a town of 400 that's not where the private school's going to be the private school is going to be where it already is giving tax breaks to the wealthiest and it undermines what's the core is the two things that are core small communities school and hospital I don't know the irony or the masterful design of this it's guys just like him and telling you that these people are just angry bitter that's not who we are that's not who they are but I'll tell you what there are concerns economies have shifted young people leave those communities you know if you see my community felt thriving when I was there two grocery stores couple bars downtown and all that now it's it's empty main streets that he wasn't that vision of hillbill ILY was true but he doesn't tell you the story why and the bitterness the cultural bitterness whatever that's just not true they're just looking for what what are things to rejuvenate us how do we get back how do we make this I wouldn't trade anything from where I grew up and grew up with those kids I'm still friends with them and I think about this a town that small had services like that and had a public school with a government teacher that inspired me to be sitting where I'm at today those those are real stories in small towns these guys they they talk about how evil the public schools are for many of us Public Schools were everything that was that was our path that's the Great American contribution but you say there's not a cultural bitterness but there is a cultural frustration with Democrats and one way you see it is I mean you come from a state with some of the most storyed liberals in American political history Paul wellstone was a very important influence for me at at a at a key moment he was out in California stumbling for Bill Bradley my brother was working with Bill Bradley I drove around with Paul wellstone for for a whole day he couldn't have been kinder to me I was a high school wrestler and he just want to talk wrestl all day it was one of the things that they got me into politics um but Hubert Humphrey others but if you look at the the Liberals of that Democratic party they their Coalition was built that that sort of new postnodal Democrats yes on a on a coalition that that was poor like if you looked at where people who didn't go to college voted they voted for Democrats over the past couple decades now Democrats win college educated voters nationally lose non-college voters uh those numbers are particularly Stark among white voters what do you make of that what has happened in the sort of relationship between the the party and the voters who were once its base and now feel even if they would benefit from all the policies you're talking about yeah left behind by it and make and in many cases angry at it look I represented southern Minnesota which was from all across Northern Iowa South Dakota on the West Wisconsin on the East Farm country most productive Farm country in the country uh not a lot of Democrats over the years I was the second one but you had communities like Austin where hormel's at voted for Democratic president until Donald Trump comes along same thing with Hibbing in the north on the Iron Range Folks up north the mining that built the country those folks and and Northern Minnesota was you know solidly Democrat until you know 2010 whatever and for to try and understand how that shift has happened and then the suburbs that were solidly read of course went the other way I and I think some of it is the alignment of uh of Economics we've seen a migration to uh tech jobs healthcare jobs in in in the cities and then then the cultural pieces you you have firearms start to get into that you have long Traditions that felt like they were being crushed but it was functionally what was happening and how did these people see themselves and I think for us one of the things us being I don't know if I just use Democrats those of us that would like to see policies that actually work and less of this what we're in right now have got to figure out and see if we're to some of the blame that we haven't made the message clear enough we haven't delivered on those promises that people wanted to see ACA being one of those does a lot of great things but people now have kind of forgotten that if we take away ACA you're back to pre-existing conditions and I don't know if we've built that into people's thinking right now so when Donald Trump says he's going to get rid of the ACA all right that sounds good I guarantee those people at those rally don't want the ACA to go away so look I don't know the answer Ezra other than the school teacher in me keeps thinking this look if I give a test and 90% of the kids fail I can guarantee you it's because the kids aren't smart there's something wrong with the test or the way I'm teaching it I'm not getting it to them so I keep coming back to this if they're not voting for us there's not something wrong with them there's something that's not quite clicking of where it's at so don't assume they're just not clever enough to understand what you're selling them yeah and I I wonder CU look I'm a policy guy my background is is a policy reporter like the way I want American politics to work is one long policy argument where if my chart really shows that it's going to help more people I win the argument but I I I do think that people people don't vote on policy as much as policy wonks would like to believe that's one that's right but the other is that we always think about whether or not voters like politicians but but my experience of Voters is they're more sensitive to whether they think politicians like them and that that sense of if somebody see you and like you that's a horis I think voters use a lot like if you feel that a politician would like you they're probably going to look out for you if you feel they would look past you that they would look down on you they're probably not and how do you explain Trump in that I I mean you think they feel that he sees them knows him I do I have look I I'm sure you have Trump voters in your family I have Trump voters in my family I I do and I I think a lot about how unappealing he is to me and how appealing is to people I love and yeah me too I spend a lot of time on that it's theory of it if you had to if you had to describe what would make Trump appealing right if you had to sort of empathically put yourself in that place describe what like to to like Donald Trump I do think he's entertaining to some I think you know that feels that he may not the laughing like I want to see um I think there is a sense especially if you're a little frustrated that that he uh pokes the bear on other people he's not afraid to poke the bear that gives it feels like it's empowering good somebody can do that it's not like these are small Petty people want to make other people's lives miserable but there's a sense that he's standing up to it and look I think the world is complex and if you don't understand something there's a tendency that you might turn to the unexplainable the conspiracy theories that caught on and things these aren't stupid people these are smart people but there's a frustration of why aren't things working why are they so complex so I don't know I mean it's just I'm just theorizing on it but I look that District that I represented in 2016 I snuck by with a win in there again I won that District six times there had been one other Democrat since 1890 but I I won it in 2008 by 32 points I sneak by in 2016 he wins by 17 points in that same district they never see him they knew me I coached their kids I was there I delivered in Congress I was a ranking member on the VA committee I was you know just you know 6 eight years before nearly 70% of them voted for me I didn't do any Scandal or do anything to lose their support but this guy came in and even though I was of them or felt I was of them that this was me I was truly their representative they identified with him so I still try and I don't know I'm I'm open for why this is so that me though there were Trump Waltz voters for you to win and for him big so when you talk to them what did they tell you I mean 17% they like me they trusted me they said Tim I think you're trying to do it right they they did like me but I think they told me but I don't think Trump Trump's not an outsider he'll shake it up they they didn't like the status quo which is an easy thing to do like yeah we need to change that well if we change that it's a problem you know sometimes it feels to me like this switch has been up too long I'm going to turn it down well that switch keeps your house warm you know or whatever it might be and you turn the switch just because you wanted to turn the switch and there was a little of that that the same old thing maybe we hadn't delivered the way we had but those people stuck with me they believed it but they just thought he offered something else now it's less and less of that and it used to be there used to be a lot of that as you know you're you understand a lot of split ticket voting and I ended up being one of the last four districts in 2016 that Trump won by 15 points or more and the Democrat won three of them were in Minnesota one was in uh Pennsylvania not surprising swing States traditional blue States now more in the red so those are uh there's you know I don't know what it is I just think my take is is that I think at the very end of this especially now I think the Democrats way out of this was with optimism and a sense of Grace towards folks I want to be very careful like I said those Folks at those rallies you insult them at Great Peril your neighbor who find the flag you insult them at Great peril because you just said it they're my relatives they truly are and I I know them I think that idea of Grace in politics is is interesting how do you show that right I mean one of the things it feels difficult in politics specifically since Donald Trump Rose is that and I wrote a whole book about political polarization it's sort of about this Dynamic is it the more different the other side becomes to you the more threatening they become to you the more you begin rationally to act like their enemy the fewer swing voters there are right I would sort of say like the the choice between a donkey and a horse is less obvious than between a horse and an elephant the more things become the the more Trump and the Democrats in reaction to to some degree shifted politics to a place that felt to many people existential um and and he does this as a matter of strategy right you know degrading trust in elections it's all over the system and then of course you have to then treat him as more of a threat because he is actually more of a threat to this system like once you start trying to overturn elections you've moved into a different place in what you represent in in politics but then it feels dis supported even more against them that you know Joe Biden wanted to run and turn the temperature down when he talked about why he wanted to run again uh as opposed to just sort of being that one-term bridge he sort of implied in this BT interview he he said it's just more divided than I had even imagined I think there is this hope this fantasy of turning the the temperature down it doesn't feel likely in this specific election but you know you've been around politics a long time and you govern in a place that is a winnable state for Republicans what does suggest that Grace to people what does suggest to people that that even if you may not agree with them you don't hate them yeah well we and that I would take this through because this gets I think can end up very dangerous I think many of us know where it goes that southern Minnesota District had 22 counties there's 87 in Minnesota 22 counties I won 21 of those in 2008 you know almost won them all in my first election I don't know the exact number in 2018 I think I maybe won 28 or 30 counties out of the ' 87 and then the last one I think I won 11 or so and I think you understand the demographics of what happened there it started to collapse back to more urban areas and that you could win with sheer volume my one Minnesota theme was on this is is you might be able to win that election but it's very difficult to govern if if folks are out there and I what I won't forgive Donald Trump for is and we can't fall into this because what you're saying is that disdain that contempt or whatever he did that he didn't make us just a Democrat with bad ideas he made me the enemy and once he did that it became harder to come back and and I'll I'll take this and I don't want to you know be overly dramatic but it was it's so stuck with me Ellie visel talked about if you're going to commit some of these atrocities you got to make somebody the other you've got to make the other and that's the whole thing and Shrink their world and make it so clear that they are the other and that's what scares me most about what's happened here that we're not just Democrats who are have really horrible ideas about social safety nets or whatever it might be we don't love this country and in some cases we're you know we don't share any of their common values he's been masterful at that because that's the whole thing you I think at heart I'm a I'm a geographer not an anthropologist we're very tribal by Nature I think it's still genetic that we will go back to those who look like us and sound like us and are part of this because otherwise you're competing for my food source and and we regress back you know 20,000 years and and there we are and I think that fin veil of society that some of these guys figured that out stri that away from us so I think that trying to you cannot make someone the other you cannot because then you get into very close you see some of this it becomes dehumanizing you hear it in the language and once you've got another and a dehumanized you can do about every what you want and of course the world sees that every single day let me ask you about political geography what one reason I think that you're lying on this in the way you framed right when in that original Morning Joe interview you sort of talk about being from a a town of 400 graduating a small class right this isn't what we're like there like these guys are weird they're ruining Thanksgiving I think one reason a lot of Democrats thrilled to that is it they actually feel liberals Coastal liberals right I'm a Californian liberal uh like the other right there's been a lot of movement in in politics to make that true right when when George W Bush was winning in in 04 right Democrats were losing the Heartland right you know if you're California you're not in the you're not in the Heartland there's a sense of part the Midwest as that's where people are normal then they get sort of weirder on the coast they get the South real America and you come out you know you're former Army guy right you're former uh football coach uh you got this very sort of you sort of see you got real good Midwestern dad Vibes I think to just be blunt about it and so you could kind of say this in a way that I think a lot of Democrats would not feel they could and also in a way that they're like oh right maybe we're not the weird ones but I always think this is a very unhealthy dimension of our politics a sense that there are sort of Real Americans here not Real Americans there that you know to be on the coast yes Geographic politics you know throughout history are are more combustible right because that that's always just a tricky thing I I'm curious how you how you think about this both from the perspective of of what it's allowed you to say maybe that would not have landed coming from from others um and also just like what you do about it because I don't think I don't think it's a a situation that from what you were saying a second ago that you feels very healthy for the country either no and then you know I I think the Republicans could say I I get wound up and I you know used a word I probably shouldn't have in a you know little thing last night because I'm angry I'm angry at the president or whatever but if I cross that line then then what do I get um look I started hearing this in 2006 and 2008 where you know people in the cities don't know who we are we're real America I would kind of like look and I'm like what are you talking about and it was a concerted effort and and I I don't know coordinated whoever these thinkers were you know at one time that was the famous thing that the Republicans hired linguists and started to beat us on language or whatever I never saw it that way and now it's just something like this you you can't go to Minneapolis it's you know you can't do this and there was this desire to just make these undesirable places they do it to San Francisco and just to be candid which is where I'm taping from right now yeah I mean people come here like I thought that was going to be a hell stake hellscape last week was my first time last week was my first time in San Francisco and stayed down there I was doing some meetings woke up did my my f mile run through the precidio to the Golden Gate went back to my hotel was downtown and end up leaving and I'm like that is the most beautiful city I've ever been in and and the temperature and I see the Golden Gate or whatever what they've done that look have there been problems yes we homelessness is an issue across the country but to see this the it was so it was exotic to me I've seen San Francisco on TV you know hundreds of times and heard about it and there I am driving around and I'm like a kid again I'm like America is so awesome San Francisco is just the greatest and that's the way people would feel go out to the Boundary Waters of Minnesota go to Northern Minnesota and look where the mining has happened for 100 years these were the beauty of America and they've demonized these places they've made them feel that way and and when I say they I should maybe say us you know people like I could give you a name Oklahoma and all of a sudden you just assume that all of Oklahoma is conservative or whatever beautiful places Beautiful People a tapestry or whatever my take on this is is that I think we can get the politics back to that and I I'm hopeful but as my wife says that's not a plan of trying to bring more engagement back but our politics now especially in the House of Representatives where I was and and Jerry mandering just incentivizes the most ridiculous divisions possible so I I'm not hopeful on the House of Representatives but I will tell you this and this is true true Governors who have to govern even states that are red or blue but have areas of each in them are much more bipartisan and much more collegial and and that for me is was a breath of fresh air but but this is a place I do think where Democrats have failed a bunch of the people that that they were hired to help so to speak which is look you can't be a firefighter who protects San Francisco as a friend of mine is and live in San Francisco no way or teacher that's a teacher uh you know Minneapolis uh has gotten real issues with with high with high housing prices there is something here where it's a little bit more of an urban problem and Democrats do better in urban areas so there might just be it might not all be causation but I mean I'm writing a book on this I've done a lot of work thinking about this there is a way in which Democrats have become um theyve not made it easy to build in the places where they govern yeah and over time then you know people look and they say oh you got these huge homelessness problems you know people can't afford to live there you know people are leaving California for for Texas and you could say a lot about Texas but in Austin in Houston you can build apartments and that is kept those places not perfectly affordable but dramatically more affordable than La than San Francisco than Boston and I you know I know you've done a lot of work on affordable housing but I also find Democrats typically want to do affordable housing through subsidizing rent in Minneapolis they got rid of single family zoning um it was sued uh there was a suit against it and part by environmental groups how do you think about this politics that's more of a state and local politics about what you can build and where and and what makes things affordable yeah this is real this is real and I think we're getting some compromises on this there was a bill that was opposed by a lot of the Suburban the first ring cities and things for this very reason uh you know we were trying to push back and take away some of those and we we got into this on a broader scale of things like energy projects um we have good environmental laws in Minnesota and that's the way it should be we we're protecting of 20% of the world's fresh water but we also have uh you know permitting that takes too long and prohibits or makes more expensive doing renewable energy projects things that we want to get done I think that same things applies on housing that we put up barriers to make it more affordable I would say you're right on this Ezra but there's there's another thing that I found it was it was an interesting phenomenon that happened some of the programs that we were doing for housing or some of the programs for you know tax rebates or things like like that um I had proposed in some of these cases a cap where you could receive those um up to $200,000 and the push back I got from Democrats was that's outrageous these people don't need it or whatever with the basic economics of it was I think there's a big chunk of folks that we look at that these are just rural people that you know are lower socioeconomic that's not it at all we got a whole bunch of people that are in that sandwich thing that they're not rich enough to not have to worry about the price prices and there's absolutely nothing for them provided in any of the subsidies or any of the programs and they're right in the middle that happens on child care where we give Child Care Grants and we cap it before it hits those families that make a difference and that becomes those folks are squeezed you you just said it you think about a cop and nurse firefighter and teacher and live in San Francisco Minneapolis or wherever and then the easy fix is it just tax cuts the Republicans come back with it's because you're paying too high of taxes you can keep more of your money and resentment I mean I I don't know how much people tracked this but I found it very striking that the longest and most serious policy riff in JD Vance's uh convention speech was this Riff on housing and he says look I'm going to tell you how it became unaffordable to buy a house and he says we had a housing crisis and it was done by the bankers and they then there wasn't enough building because all these Builders went bankrupt and then the Democrats LED in all the immigrants and the immigrants bit up that I thought that's a wild description of what look it is completely true that if you have a supply constrained housing market and you have a lot of immigration that can raise prices but your problem is you're not building enough houses but it does it did show and he's given this riff at other places before it did show the way when things are scarce when people feel there's not enough for them or for their kids they're going to close up right and and I do think that's part of the the the the immigration politics we see and then blame somebody it's the scapegoat thing or whatever I try and go on this look I I reject a lot of the false scarcity I'm not I'm not polyan there is a scarcity of housing but it's because of our policies in some cases the ability to get out there the false scarcity piece then has us all fighting over the the small piece of it and the Republicans do this very well that they get folks that could benefit from these programs advocating for tax cuts for the wealthiest we're still back at trickle dong economics with absolutely no proof that any of it works but you've got folks looking for it if we're not offering something that's the alternative that actually works for them theirs is so much simpler to explain you know if we didn't have so many people here if we didn't have these immigrants here not you know not taking into consideration where do you think your protein sources are coming from in from Austin Minnesota you know when 70% of the workforce is is an immigrant community and that's that's always been that way and they need housing and this becomes a real issue where we see communities are dealing with this and this demonization especially around immigration the heart of the community is that protein processing plant they want to build more affordable housing to have the workers who were there who will then spare and spend in the community and you get community members that don't want to build that housing because they're afraid it'll track the very workers that create the jobs that gets the wealth for them they might own a grocery store that's who's shopping there it becomes this death spiral of an argument around immigration which we've got to have border control you've got to know who's coming in you've got to modernize that but we have to have especially a state like Minnesota we're aging we're white it's same thing's happening in Japan it's happening in Finland it's happening in South Korea that we're going to have to think think about what does that look like so resentment is a strong one uh blame somebody else they're really good at this but like you said with Vance what's he offering what what what is his plan to fix this housing issue just kick out everybody so what they're going to do is just Deport everybody and there'll be these empty houses you'll just move into um I guess that's what they're thinking let me make a policy connection that'll seem weird but I think it's true so you mentioned immigration a second ago we've been talking about houseing been talking about San Francisco and you know I remember I I lived in DC for 13 14 years and crime when I lived there was really rough I mean I had friends get shot uh friends get get beat up I was lucky I didn't but but you you really worried walking around but crime wasn't that toxic a political issue there because while people understood it was bad they didn't feel it was being tolerated they just felt it was a hard problem to solve in San Francisco crime is way lower than it was in DC when I lived there but it's a much more toxic political issue because people feel or have felt there's a a tolerance for disorder and I think On the Border um there's a dimension of this too that that that immigration is hard people there are very very sophisticated smuggling rings and other things now but I think the the reason they get mad at Democrats is a feeling of of tolerance for it not that Democrats don't want to make the system better but they're not that upset about it being bad yeah they dismiss it they dismiss it when they're ask is it a crisis you need to answer yes it's a crisis I I've always been amazed here a little bit I mean say what you will about him but but Texas governor Greg Abbott began busing migrants around the country and creating genuine crisis in different country I'm sorry in different cities in doing that and he did it in a very low way didn't allow for coordination but the fact is like you know the fact that these cities went into such a dangerous politics around this when they began getting uh migrants who actually were in Texas suggests the problem in Texas was pretty bad right I mean the problem on some of these border cities was pretty bad I think there's something about this here where people get mad not because a problem isn't solved but because they feel a problem is tolerated and that's been a a problem sometimes for Democrats I wonder if you think that's a a reasonable read no I think it's a reasonable read and I every you know we have the right to to control our border you know there is no line to come in and and I think when people hear you're you're we want to be a place where if you're seeking Asylum but an asylum Seeker that comes in it takes seven years to process their case that's too long the problem that I have is is that we need to talk about that frame and then the solution and the solution was there the solution was the Lanford Cinema Bill the solution was when the last time we did this it took some courage it took a Republican senator Mike dwine to cross over now the governor of Ohio and you know what it took it took a governor in Texas to say let's work on this together and get reforms George Bush and that's what's missing now if I don't disagree that Governor Abbott is pointing out some of these things but he treats it in the most cruel inhumane way instead of saying and and this is where we should we should reach out and say the governor's not wrong they need help Texas shouldn't by itself absorb or pay for this problem we should all collectively figure out how to do it and that was Langford Sy Cinema and Donald Trump didn't want it and Trump's idea it's look it's so simple again build the wall that's just so visceral that that's going to keep people out it doesn't you know how high is the wall because if it's 30 foot I'm going to invest in the 30- foot ladder Factory that's that type of thinking rather than look we need to make the real fix here is to make sure the electoral system in Venezuela does not create this type of geopolitical Crisis that forces people out making sure the investments in clean energy and look you don't think people are going to be immigrating when climate change forces Coastal communities over 20% of them this is all going to start to happen leaving it and saying it's not a problem is a political detriment to Democrats just acknowledge it is you're not denigrating anyone and you're not you're you're not helping them you're not helping them being the immigrants by saying it's not a problem because they know better than anybody it's a problem because they're stuck at a border Community with nowhere to go there's a a maddening Dynamic sometimes in politics I think Democrats have have changed this immigration but sometimes you have these issues where Democrats don't seem to think it's a problem but they're definitely willing to solve it and Republicans think it's a huge problem but they definitely don't want to solve it and I'm afraid you're right and you get these weird conversations where it's like well Democrats have they don't see mad about it but they actually have a plan and Republicans like seem mad about fentel but they're not doing anything serious about it or at least a lot of them haven't been and it it's frustrating yeah no it's true I agree with you I think that's right and that's look we need a better and we need a smarter politics and so your example of Governor Abbott is right I think he handled it poorly horribly but I think to dismiss that Texas has a point that that we could all work together on is is bad politics and bad policy let me ask you about a piece of the election that I I'm I really believe is true but is a little tricky to talk about but you've begun talking about it in in ways that I think are resonating which is the the strange way that I would say gender broadly but but actually masculinity in particular is is playing um you talked about the Republicans sometimes seeing seeming like they're they're running for the the head of He-Man women Haters Club and that's a a sharp way to put it but there is a we're seeing this big gender gap uh emerge among young people uh young men you know and young women were you know voting for Biden in 2020 young men are supporting Trump by about 14 points in in this Wall Street Journal poll at least when Joe Biden was running in the election and there is this way that you really feel this sort of strange wounded masculinity emerging and dominant not just on the Republican side I mean you have Hulk Hogan and you know the Dana White from the UFC you know on Trump's night at the the convention right there's this very performative you know masculinity um but there's also this sort of anger that you see with I think more represented by by the V side of it among young Republicans like this feeling of families breaking down and there's no role for men anymore and you can't anything you know one of the reasons again I think you're resonating is you sort of seem to have a much more comfortable confident relationship to this than a lot of uh Democrats do and that's allowing you to call things out that others are not able to call out you were just on the white dudes for for comma call and yeah uh your remarks from that I saw them ricocheting around the internet how do you think about this piece of it because it is getting at something the sort of angry sort of wounded maleness it is a real politically combustible thing agreed you know maybe I'm asking as much the high school teacher in you as the the politician but but I'm curious how you understand its roots right now and and how you think about talking to it yeah and I I think it's been exploited so first of all part of it is you know frontal Lo development things that are you know where you're at things that appeal to your Risk Takers like look MMA is very exciting when you're you're younger you know uh some of these you know context boards different types of things but I watch this you're right the you know the white dudes for Harris last night and right away the far right on this I think Donald Trump Jr used a very derogatory word towards non-masculine men in their parlance or whatever to try and say see look who they are or whatever you know and it's it's that piece of it cuck was the word he used just to yeah you can say yeah that has a lot of deep all right yeah it's a podcast it gets a lot of deep meanings in in what he's doing and I found it interesting that Trump is not trying to get black votes he's trying to get black men 18 to 34 to play on their resentment to play on you know where they want to be success to you're being left behind and and he's very successful at at playing to that but but let me ask about the flip side of that I mean Democrats and particularly liberals in recent years they talk so much about toxic masculinity they don't just talk very much about masculinity right they talk a lot about feminity right the future is female right there's a lot of Celebration and and and that's for the good like I'm I'm I'm on board with with all of that but one thing I hear when I go sort of watch what some these young men are watching when I sort of try to look at what's happening in the podcast manosphere is you know is is a sense of a lot of young men that that they're not they're not wanted in this moment of the Poli Trump wants them and likes them you're right and and and I think one of the things is I'm a bit disarming it's your you know it's your your uncle or whatever and I look like them and I can outshoot them and I coach football and things like that so they're they don't feel that you won a state championship it's a big deal I did I did win a state championship on that your your point is well taken and I'm I saw this and and this was brought to me by West Moore mentioned something about this and we were talking about black men I asked I said explain this to me why what do these guys think Trump's going to offer and he said look Tim tell me your policy accomplishments that you talk about when you talk about black men you know I I he goes he didn't want to put me on the spot he said you know what we all do is we talk about restoring the right to felons we talk about expunging all that he goes I'm not a felon what I'm looking for is where's your capital investment in my business that I've got what I need is access to Capital to that's been redlined out for me that allows me to grow this business and Wes was talking about we we have got to do a better job of talking to them because it's insulting it's you know they're looking for that and they're they're getting this validation from Trump that you know welcome in here we can make money we can do this and I I think we we too much lump folks together I think we're we're too well look don't get me wrong restoration of F and felon voting rights you know expungement of some of these records those types of things all critically important because of a system that over prosecuted those same black men who've had to live with that but we haven't done anything to move beyond that to move to you know the other side of the equation if you will of what are you doing to get us forward and what are you doing to show the respect this is tricky these are hard things to talk about but we as a country are going to have to figure this out not just for electoral winds but for long-term stability of our society and making sure that folks truly can Thrive tell me how Democrats or or maybe specifically you show respect right we can talk about policy right I think Democrats often want to show they want to help they want to show what they're going to do but how do you show respect to people who who don't feel respected by you particular when those people are treating you with with disrespect particularly when your side gets excited if you treat them with disrespect like how do you how do you build that sense of respect in politics yeah I think it's it's making it clear uh you have to be present you know I'd always go when I go into the black churches and say you know couple things you can always count on taxes sunrising and white politicians over here to see you guys at you know at Ebenezer and uh first of all being there being in community and then making the case that these communities don't need a white savior many cases they need us to move the resources and let the community do it themselves making sure that in appointments you know if you're going to appoint in your cabinets when you get elected the the housing person usually put a a black person in there and then call it good no they want to be in the revenue office they want to be in the education department the these are things you start to show the respect that our society is based on this and it's there and you let the communities grow and Thrive and then fig figure out ways that in so many of these cases that barrier to generational wealth that really moves the needle is the housing one you're talking about and that doesn't mean just affordable housing that you don't own it means how do you get to home ownership and then the movement of capital to entrepreneurial businesses those are the things that we've not done a good enough job in those communities when we start to see that in Minnesota we start to move the needle in in terms of a policy that people would feel in their lives that they would appreciate Democrats did for them if um forgetting who is president if a Democrat is president if you were president in in 2025 I know you're not running for the top of the ticket and there's a governing Trifecta what do you think democrats should pass first what would make the biggest difference for for people and be visible well certainly uh the vice president will make her decisions on those but given I think one of the things is is that people really see because it empowers their family it shows up I think the Paid Family and Medical Leave we're the last Nation on Earth basically to not do this it is so foundational to just basic decency and financial well-being um um I think we should do Paid Family Medical Leave across the country and I think that would start to change both finances attitude strengthen the this is one of if JD Vance is right about this that we should make it easier for families to be together then make sure that after your child's born that you can spend a little time with them that'd be a great thing great way of also seeing who in politics is actually Pro family and and who just likes to talk about it oh it separates people quickly always our final question what are three books you'd recommend to the audience I'm reading uh the very secret memory of men by Muhammad SAR um very interesting book uh if you don't want to sleep read command and control by Eric sler it's about the nuclear accident at Damascus and then maybe it's just me uh like nostalgic whatever is a young guy uh razer's Edge I I still go back to to Mom's Razor's Edge those would be three Governor Tim Waltz thank you very much thanks Ezra