[Music] hello and welcome to this episode of Grant Thornton's in conversation with podcast I'm Richard W I'm people and culture director at the firm and I'm really passionate about early careers and training Recruitment and it's where I started my career at the firm back in 2010 I'm joined today by Chris and oi and we're going to talk about the varied careers that someone can have a firm like Grant Thornton but before we get started let's start with some introductions oi let me come to you first hi I'm oi I am a manager in the forensic Investigation Services team and I've been with gr Thon for a little over six years now great and Chris uh I'm Chris RAB I'm an audit partner uh in the London office and I've been here since January 2012 excellent so knowing what I know about both of your careers I think we've got some really exciting insights to share with our audience today but before we get into that let's start with some easier questions so have you got three words that best describe your career at gr Thornton to date and three skills that make you really great at your job and oi I'll start with you again oh um I think three words to describe my career surprising rewarding and exciting great and three skills um well I think they'll be curious skeptical and friendly mhm great Chris okay well hopefully I don't steal too many of your words and and things but um I the three words I would describe my career uh here at Grand thoron have have been challenging enriching and rewarding and I would say the three skills uh that have made me successful are uh I'm a bit of a problem solver uh I feel I'm a pretty good communicator and I feel I can do quite a bit of multitasking which is very important in my job I'll bet I'll bet so as a starting point Chris it'd be really great to understand a little bit more from yourself about the timeline of your own career um how did your career bring you from Grant Thornton in the US to Grant thoron in the UK okay so I started with Grant thoron in the Phoenix office back in 20 uh 2006 so once I graduated uh from University in America I moved up from being an audit associate to an audit inch charge and then an audit manager uh after 5 years I spent another year and a half uh in the states as a audit manager um an opportunity came up where I could do a two-year SEC comment in London uh my wife is from England uh I visited here quite a bit thought it would be kind of nice to do a two-year succumbent uh and within a year and a half I became a full-time uh UK member and uh after my son was born and we decided to make it more of a permanent move to the UK great and oi you started your career at gr Thornton audit and as you said have moved into an advisory role can you talk to me a little bit about your J Journey at the firm over the last six years it's very similar to Chris actually I joined as an audits associate and the public service Assurance team in Bristol and um I spent about three and a half years there where I completed my training contract and then I think at some point um Bristol being a small office you you know quite naturally talk to the person had next to you and a lot of my colleagues had moved over to forensics and that's sounded quite interesting um and I think at that point I made a choice before I completed my training contract to move over into forensics give that a try and have been here since and what was it about forensics that you found particularly attract itive um at that point in your career in order to sort of looking for something you know might have gone wrong might not have gone wrong but in forensics it gets a little more interesting where someone comes to you where something might already have gone wrong and at that point on basically retrospectively proactively kind of dig in and look through and I think that quite appealed to me um and it was you do get a far larger range of you know breath and experience the industries the regions you work in so I think that was uh that was kind of what pulled me into this and Chris you've stayed in audit from kind of through your career what is it about audit that has kind of kept you engaged for as long as it has I think it's the variety um when I started in 2006 I got to work on a lot of different clients um from listed clients to small private clients to some government work um so I and also in a lot of different Industries so one of the things you know I'm I'm a curious person I like to learn about different things uh seeing companies that do manufacturing and whatnot that was that was kind of in interesting when I came over to the UK I had the opportunity to work on a few mining clients and that kind of took me around the world a little bit I got to go down to Africa I was in China um and just working on companies here that operate more internationally than some of the clients I had back home in in the US uh just kind of always gives me the ability to learn about new companies work with different people so it just keeps keeps it interesting I'll bet and I guess at certain points across both of your careers over the last um number of years um internal networks internal mentors those key people that we might have internally who've been pivotal in kind of making decisions about what should I do next do I go to the UK on comment do I move into forensics talk to me about how you've tapped into those networks and key people to help you I guess navigate those big moments in your career today Chris okay so I think we have a really good people manager and coaching structure here in the UK we had a pretty similar one in the US so I always felt I had someone that I could talk to about how I was doing um in a job how how things were going what my career development would look like um what I was liking about the work what I wasn't liking about the work uh and that was a way to help develop a bit of a career plan for myself um and as you spend more time you're going to have your colleagues around you that you can know commiserate from time to time but over time you you you'd learn how they'd help you get through that and then as you continue to progress and you talk about your career and what you want to do so I had somebody when the opportunity came up to come to the UK I said you I'd really like to work in the UK I'd like to see what it's like working at a different country working on more International stuff um so I was able to go to my partner he was able to put me in touch with the right people over here I came over here and I interviewed and uh the person that interviewed me has been here for you know the 12 years I've been here and he's the person I'll come to and I'll talk to about my career development issues I'm having but it's not just having a strong manager as you mentioned it's people in your you know in your own cohorts and the managers and and the people that you can kind of trust and talk to and the one thing that I feel over here is we have a good collaborative group and I feel that no one is Cutthroat or trying to use things against me so I felt like I could always be open and honest about issues I'm having at work or with clients or with with colleagues so that's always been helpful great oi what about yourself I think between your first and your second year you kind of start to get the idea whether the team you're in if that's what you want to do long term or not and I think to an extent it's down to the individual to speak to people not immediately within your team but also to your network and I think fortunately for me the team that I was in I had a lot of role models who had moved to other countries other service lines so I knew that when the time came if I had asked like you know what this is really good and I'm happy with this but I want to do a bit more yeah I knew that would be supported um so I think after my second year and having those conversations with my colleagues and forensics I sort of me is this is where I want to go and this is what I want to do um and I remember this one conversation that I had when my transfer was already agreed between audit and forensics and one of the audit Partners um came down to to me and he said you know it's not a problem that you want to move on from audit um I think the key thing is that you want to remain in the firm and that's our objective as well and um yes I don't think since then I've looked back and I think I also moved between Bristol to London um a part of it was a bit selfish because a lot of my friends um after uni had um gone their first jobs in London which I didn't but once I transferred to FRX that again was supported that yes if you want to move um from the southwest to London and I had the support from my people manager to do that and I think in terms of the opportunities and sort of my oversight of what was going on in the forensic space the visibility was slightly better so it was definitely a good decision and was supported like you said by everybody that I spoke to and Chris since coming to the UK you've had some really exciting opportunities to continue to develop your career connecting him with colleagues and peers from the broader network of international member firms can you tell us a bit more about that uh yeah so there's a couple of things that I've been able to do uh one is the gar program uh which is in annual review of audit firms in the member in the member firm Network so every three years every member firm gets a number of their audit files reviewed and and that kind of came up because one of the colleagues that I knew from an engagement back in the US that I was working on she joined GTI and when I was in one office that was going through the gar I saw her and she came up and we started talking we connected and she says if you want to do it just let me know so that's one thing that I get to do um on an annual basis if it works out uh from a timing basis but what I get to do is I get to meet Partners uh from our other member firm uh not just the ones that I'm reviewing but the people that join to do the reviews so it helps to build up that network uh on an international basis uh the other thing that I was able to do is I was invited to join uh the Alp which is the advanced leadership program um and this is done with people who are kind of senior managers directors new partners uh and it is around the global firm uh so my cohort had about 50 people on it uh from all different member firms and we spent time doing some remote training uh but then we were also in Berlin and Mexico City so I got to do a little traveling see the world a bit uh and really develop some relationships uh and what's helpful is when we go out to Market uh I do know people in certain places as a result of all these uh different programs I've been involved with because then I can always reach out to them sometimes they reach out out to me and even if I'm not the one that's going to work with them I can put them in touch with different people so it's been really interesting to get these opportunities and these opportunities are out there uh some are brought to you and some you have to look for so I think uh as long as you're willing to try something new uh those those opportunities will be available to you I think what's coming through really clearly in both of your sponsors is the importance of networks and connections in your own team across the UK member firm and more broadly across the global Network I guess for someone starting out right at the beginning of their career they're a new associate we know the world's changed over the last few years in terms of the way that we're all working but what would your top tips be for individuals joining The Firm now in terms of building their network from scratch in a firm like ours A she I think my advice would be first try to know your team and the work that you do really really well and once you feel comfortable with that to have a strong internal Network use that leverage that to build your network and talk about talk to people about the work that you do um within your own teams um yeah Chris any top tips for those joining I I would say take your time so similar to Oi it's you don't develop your your network in a day you don't you don't develop it in one year it takes some time and I would say be open uh be willing to talk to people um or she used the word curious uh before and I I think curiosity is a great thing that when you're asking somebody questions about what they like what they do you can you can have a network of people where okay I know you because we started in audit together um and you know we've been in the trenches together we've done hard work on this away job together but oh I know so and so because actually we both like the same sport or we like the say movie or music and we went to concerts together and you can just build it over time and I think if you're just willing to talk to people uh and to put yourself out there um that will help and the other thing is not to be intimidated by more senior people and I know it's an easy thing to say because you know I say it to people oh don't oh come up invite me to coffee I'll go out I'll talk to you and I remember when I was 21 22 when I the partner asked to talk to me I was sitting there thinking oh great this is it I'm getting I'm getting my pink slip that's that's it that's me done but you know I I think if you're willing to you know put yourself out there you'll find as I've said before I feel we have a collaborative team I think people will work with you they'll talk to you uh and we all we all sometimes just need a laugh or just something to talk about a little distraction uh to get through the day and I think that'll help build your network internally and from there you'll get those skills that building an external network will just start to become second nature oi uh just building on what Chris said as you progress between grades there is an expectation that you're going to speak to people externally and start to build those external networks and eventually not immediately um once you get to a certain point in your career that brings in the work so it is a transferable skill um you keep building on it um and I just following on from Chris's point I think it's really important to go speak to people because unless you speak to them they don't know that you're interested in what they're doing and they will remember you when the time comes or an opportunity comes and they will call you in to come help them yeah and it's a good point that you bring up is that network is going to hopefully be the pipeline for future work um but what you have to realize is it's very unlikely you're going to meet somebody at a networking event or you're going to meet somebody on the first time and they're just going to hand you a bit of work it takes time to build up I guess if you're just willing to as you say willing to talk to somebody willing to say hi you don't have to go into you know a Spiel you don't have to try to sell somebody something it's all just about talking and and getting comfortable with uh a normal conversation I think what's coming through in our conversation so far as a Common Thread is around V Variety in an experience which I think have been important to both of your careers today what opportunities are there for people who might be watching this podcast now who might be just starting their career or just thinking about starting their career kind of what opportunities exist in their future maybe once they've qualified to maybe spread their wings globally across the International network uh well we have a a gems program so Global mobility and they have a listing of all the potential Internationals Commons and normally you would get to go on an international suum until you're fully qualified uh sometimes it's not until you're a manager so one of the things is to look into that there's um in sites on the internet that will kind of go through all the listings it's worthwhile talking to people who have been on those and again on the internet you can find uh people's stories of who's been on to comment um and there's usually people uh where reaching out and saying this is available but you could also talk to your people manager and you could say you know I'd really be interested in going to the the United States or I want to spend a year down in Australia you do have to search it out a little bit but it also isn't too difficult if you just ask the the question to your people manager and we've talked you both about how you've both built amazing careers at the firm and I'm sure it's not been plain sailing the whole time can you talk to me about any challenges that have come up for either of you and what you've done to kind of navigate those oi um I think there have been two and moving between year one and year two and um I think post one of my performance where we had some constructive criticism on you know we expect you to be here but you're here and we expect you to get up to here um and at that point um a lot of my peers were getting some opportunities to move on to the next stage earlier on um and I think I had a particularly challenging conversation with my people manager at the time to say why don't you give me a chance and give me an opportunity and let's see how I do after you know the first client or the first project um and there was somebody else in my team who had also spoken to about this and uh she very kindly gave me that opportunity to you know carry out that project or be an in charge on one of her projects um and it worked quite well and I was able to establish at that point you know what I understand the these are the lessons and these are the learnings and this is what I'm going to take forward um which is why I say it's really key in your first year that you really understand what is expected of you at the end of your first and your second year cuz sometimes when you don't have those proactive conversations you don't quite gauge where you're supposed to be and I think my second one was when i' failed my penultimate exam before my um my last um case study before I qualified I was very upset I up until that point never failed an exam and I took it quite hard as well and one of my um senior colleagues within the team had learned through my people manager that um I was quite upset about missing my um or failing one of my exams which meant I wasn't able to qualify until 6 months later and all my peers had passed and were going to move on um and he gave me a call one day and said like look oia I understand this was um this is quite hard and it's going to be hard to see your peers moving on and I believe that you know you'll be fine when you reset this exam and I think it was just that gesture it was very compassionate very empathetic and it meant a lot to me somebody who was struggling from having to deal with a sort of setback um so yeah I think those were two sort of challenging moments for me but I'm glad I had those experiences now in hindsight and Chris I mean I don't think I've ever had an audit go perfectly so you know there's always always a lot to learn from there but one I I I guess one of the things that kind of threw me off of my my career path or or where I wanted to get to was after I decided that I was going to be here uh in the UK and it was going to be more permanent um I found out that I needed to qualify again as a chartered accountant uh and that meant that I had to go on a training contract uh and I think that started in 2015 and I had to take tests again so having been through all my University all the tests that I had to take and not having had taken a test since 2008 I had to start taking tests again in 2016 and it was kind of weird to be in my 30s with a you know 23 24 year olds who were uh you know taking the test uh and qualifying but it was one of those things that it did kind of maybe hold me back a year or so in my career development um but I did have to to go through it it is something that you know I learned from uh I definitely did not like taking case it was it is one of the worst exams I think I've ever taken in my life um but once I got through that it just was something that I know hey there's not much I can't overcome um and as you say in the grand scheme of things an a 40-year career what's an extra 12 months to you know get through something and now it's good I I I have a a dual uh qualification and I can sign audit opinions pretty much anywhere in the world now and and that's not a lot of a lot of people can say that so yeah great stuff aishi you referenced um the constructive feedback that you had early on in your career and I think that's something that we all have to get used to right working in a professional environment that feedback and regular feedback is just part of what we do we give it we receive it we take it on positively and proactively I guess for both of you have there been any key pieces of feedback that you've received along your career Journey that have kind of made a huge difference or kind of really helped you take that step forwards yeah I think to sum it up someone said to me don't dwell on it um I think when I was a trainer and even now there were some things I would reread and reread and think oh there must be something wrong with this or there must be something going on which I haven't quite spotted and someone said to me once you know what it's fine we've done a bit you know now move it along don't dwell on it and I think it was to do with a piece of work but even like if you take a step back and think oh you know I had this constructive piece of criticism and you know you don't take that personally you take the lessons out of it don't dwell on it work upon it Move Along yeah Chris well I've gotten I've gotten a lot of good feedback over my career um and one of the areas that I I had to work on a lot is you know trying to cut the emotion out of work sometimes because it's easy to kind of get worked up it's easy to read an email uh from a client or from a colleague and take it in away and and take it personally and uh a lot of what I was told is know take a take a deep breath walk away from it um so take the time reread what you've written run it past somebody else because sometimes you might think this is fine and somebody else might say that's a bit yeah that that that's a bit aggressive and and you sit there and say okay yeah now I can see how somebody could take that a different way so you know the the key is is always to try to resolve an issue uh not to throw gasoline on the fire it's to extinguish it it's to get it sorted out so it's always worthwhile to take that deep breath and make sure that you're not uh making things worse uh so that's kind of some advice I'd give great oi um thinking about our new cohort of trainees who are about to join or maybe future cohorts of trainees who will join as someone who's had a successful career at the firm today what would your advice be for those individuals who were joining in that first 3 6 n months what would they should be focusing what should they be focusing on strengthen the network with your peers that you're coming in with and those are friendships that you're going to build for a lifetime or for as long as you are here um I think also talked about you know learning your work well understand what is expected of you at the end of the first year and the second year so have those proactive check-ins with your people manager or whoever understand from them set those expectations at the start of your work at the start of the job and and um you just need to be honest to yourself and honest to the people that you're working with that you know this is where I'm at and this is where I want to get to what do I do to bridge that Gap Chris what about the associates joining your team what do the really great ones do in those early days to really um set themselves up for success I would say talk to your colleagues ask questions absorb the information great thank you both for joining me on today's podcast I'm sure your career Journeys and your career stories have inspired the next cohort of gr Thornton Talent so thank you very much thank you very much for joining this episode of in conversation with um the Grant Thornton podcast we look forward to you joining a future episode very soon