Equal Pay in the WNBA ft. Aliyah Boston, Alysha Clark, and Terri Carmichael Jackson

hey y'all I'm Aaron Haynes the host of the amendment a brand new weekly podcast on gender politics and power brought to you by the 19th news and wonder media Network you've probably heard the news that this election year our democracy is at stake on the amendment I'm breaking down what that actually means specifically for the marginalized folks who depend on our democracy the most this is a show that dives past the headlines and gets clear on the unfinished work of our democracy listen to the amendment now wherever you get your [Music] podcast hi I'm Hillary I'm Lark and I'm Jessica and welcome to hearsay where we Deep dive into the cultural moments that live rentree and our heads and probably yours too and today y'all better have my money I'm being so serious where don't act like you forgot staring at a table it's just a laptop and a knockoff ly water bottle there's no money here but in all seriousness for real for real we are talking about paying black women which is why Lark is asking for a half check I'm asking for a full check I'm sorry I'm being so F start on to just like I can only celebrate half of Black History Month I can only get half of my wage I have to F half of EET the women half will kick in and then I'll go over a 100 but yeah we are talking about paying black women what they're owed because women are not equally valued so we're going to talk about paying black women specifically through the lens of sports L and Hillary's favorite things but is such a relevant thing right now especially with WNBA season in full swing um with the definite popularity increase with March Madness this past year in women's basketball and women's sports in general um highlighting all of the glaring disparities between the sports so while I want to talk about that and we usually K haha we are all women here and I figured it's going be like a rage session talk about you know what you know what bothers you and like when did you realize that like emotionally and factually like your work was not equal to the same degree as men or as white people and also men I feel like most people I was never told like I wasn't taught about the wage Gap or that in hard numbers you will lose almost a million dollars in your lifetime you know but definitely had women and especially black women mentors tell me like you kind of have to be on your [ __ ] a little bit more you got to be above and beyond you know some of the respectability politics stuff we've talked about before of how you assimilate and show up in the workplace is really going to make a difference um which is a shame that that conversation ever needed to happen in the first place but I do feel in that regard I was warned I think a little bit more than some of my other black friends based on our like colloquial conversations um and so I think I came into the workforce ready to negotiate you know I'm solid Millennial ready to negotiate you know and talk about that and be on alert about asking all my white men peers what they were making I was lucky my first job out of college to be close friends with a lot of the people I worked with which were a lot of white men and we all talked about what we made you know and be made sure during our relative review Cycles you know to stand up for each other and to share what we were being offered um but not everyone has that opportunity or chance and um it's just yeah it's so disheartening it's anger inducing like you said that no matter what we're still going to have this discourse this conversation about who's worth what and who's earned what you know we don't say earned in National Women's losw because you haven't earned to be underpaid because you're black like that's insane and it's just turns into the worst Vibes this fake argument to blame everything else but misog Noir that you're not paying people because they're black women and you hate black women so because we're not even talking about like the actual work itself it's literally the person doing the work yes and because you're a woman you're not going to get this money for the work even if it no matter what the work is yeah and that's insane insane and it we see it like at every level right like it doesn't get better when you're older or have more degrees or in what industry yeah it's still you die doesn't want what your job is no so it like it's not about that which we tell people all the time there's a lot of wage Gap deniers out there and they always and they're not all men the market no no but they're all in our mentions I will say they're not all men but they are the market the market pays you what you're worth and it's like the market does not do that the Market's not a free and fair market by the way but yeah I you know it's funny Jessica at the start of this question I was thinking about it and obviously I'm white the first thing I thought about it were my parents my dad's a professor and my mom was a teacher her whole career um at the New Jersey school for the death oh wow and their pay which like I knew I would like became kind of keenly aware when they got divorced right like when you know there's like a difference in pay and your parents split up then there's like who's going to pay for what and all like I got way into the money in a teenage way that is not awesome but but at the time I just remember thinking my mom works so hard so hard and then she makes so much less because we value different we value these like levels of teaching differently because your mom I'm assuming knows ASL oh yeah I mean her so technically knowing like a whole other language right and she has a master's degree she is helping like a very underserved sector but being paid less than your dad right the other piece of it is that she would she would do extra teaching she so she would also teach um parents who needed to learn ASL so she you know she teach hearing people ASL and then she also would teach ASL at the same College where my dad worked as an adjunct and get paid you know nothing because adjunct professors never and so like there's so much gender stuff in in that and but as I was sitting here thinking about it I kept thinking about the NBA and the WNBA where the the work is the same literally we decided which one we value more and and then we're just like yeah and right and then we say the market wants that and that's not the case it's fact no it's it's like where is the money and where is the power and where are we welcoming Men in right where are we choosing to put the not welcoming women in because and like to quickly like pivot kind of to sports just for a second it's like when Lark tried to watch March Madness at a bar in DC that was offering like drink specials based on March Madness and um they were not doing it for the women blue jacket and Navy Yard DC on my list it's my life's work to take them down and so when you said that and just talking to y'all like it made me go to my parents who are Avid Sports Watchers but you know before merch Madness I had really see my parents like watch women's sports and so I asked both my parents and my mom was like usually the commentary was trash on women's sports otherwise though I like women's sports like we watch like we'll watch definitely at least like the final games of both invest in it exactly but she's like it was literally just like the commentary and like also some channels don't show it like which is so crazy cuz it made me go and like talk to them because I never asked myself cuz I just didn't watch sports in general right you're not the I'm opportunity I don't care ball go across Court field but now I'm learning and I'm like no but like actually why don't we watch things equally because it's literally the same thing well and now the discourse like you said you know the whole thing this year was everyone can name women college basketball players and no one can name a male college basketball player right the women were the coolest thing they were talented their games were more exciting to watch blah blah blah all of that is true but we still are having these weird conversations of where the male-dominated sports world is telling us you did it here's you know here's this they Stars they're popular maybe they're getting top nil but we have season premiere of uh WNBA games not shown on TV that's someone streaming it on Twitter that too many people watch like so we're still doing that we're still having their Sal season still but but stars there were 200,000 people on a live stream right that that that's nuts and then we have all of their uh most I should say of their state of WNBA stadiums are not equipped to handle the fans that they now have so they're now moving all their games in DC in um Chicago like they're all moving their games to where the men play which hey hear me out what if it was the same what if we had equal what if we had equal places the audience is there right because thinking about like at least in DC the DC Stadium which has had its own Kur fuffle this year but is accessible technically by every um it's very very literally theer versus the women's stadium was isn't it wasn't it in southeast and like Southeast is very unaccessible by Metro um it's not close it's literally separate but equal and it's also if you build it they will come the women's soccer team in DC had the similar thing they had a stadium out in the well it was the middle nowhere to be cuz I never leave the city limits but it was not acceptable to public transit I mean they've had two very One Way Out in lebur and the other way up and one in Germantown yeah that was the closest they got and they were also like and now they're fields for lower levels of boys sport they were not like professional yeah they weren't professional level Fields they started having a couple like friendly games at Audi field where DC United the men's team plays and lo and behold they sell out oh everyone wants to come see them and they realized how much money they could make having their games at Audi field now guess what all their games are at Udi field every game this season they've broken an it's been a top attendance record which Navy Yard isn't super accessible but at least it's where all the stadium Metro and yeah it's you've made it equivalent with the other to the National what I'm saying where other stadiums are it's where are being invested in it's and I feel like we have these people making these base takes still trying to hold on to this like women's sports you know are still not as good and especially with basketball you're mostly talking about black women like you're literally trying to cling on to which is the whole the whole point and that's why with like Caitlyn Clark it's like now it's like oh my God Kaitlin Clark is only getting paid this much and it's like yes all the other black players that have been playing for years so of all the people that have been advocating for this for years why was Britney grinder and Russia in the first place people are not making that even though she had been playing for years like I'm glad it's finally happening that we're talking about it in basketball and it's almost in because we talked about it in soccer we talked about in tennis we're talking about it in basketball now but it's still like we cannot just be like KAIT CK's not getting money so something needs something's wrong like no we need to talk about how the same Financial Security has not been given to black women as has been given to the black men and all of the men in the NBA and that has consequences not just like oh I can't have three houses I can only have two but like legitimately your life it's your job yes and because we live in a capitalistic Society our jobs are really important for literally everything survival yeah well and just like it irks me I love that there's so many new fans and are welcome and are like yes let's join this fight let's do it but similar to every other movement and fight like you got to do your research you got to listen to the history right like Cheryl swoops Lisa Leslie Dom Staley like all of these black women have been doing that they started the league like they this work is not new it's not something that's like just now shocking everyone knows everyone who's been involved with the league who's played in the league who has watched the league knows that it's not new and it's it's beyond just pay too like it's it's it's so sad to see that it mirrors again at every single level they're not getting the same pay they're not getting the same equipment and circumstances they're not getting the same sponsorships and even with nil it's still not the same you can make your nil oh yeah what uh name image and likeness recently the NCA and Supreme Court ruled that college athletes can make money off their name image in likeness Andor because before they could not you can sell jerseys private companies this stuff 2% or less of people were play that were playing college sports were going on professional sports and we're finally making somewhat of an income versus accepting women's basketball no they weren't um but in college you could not be paid like because you were a student that was your pay and you had to be treated completely equally you couldn't get any extra treatment um any extra money any extra resources even though and even though you didn't have time to study you weren't actually getting an education couldn't work your your practice schedule and being a student you can't make money any other way the school the world is making tons like college sports money is UN sickening if you look it up it's especially in southern schools and so or just big you know if you're at a big basketball school you know if you're at South Carolina if you're at right if you're at Yukon or something like that so everyone thought oh and this is going to be the Bastion of equality right everyone can get the deals that they want and I will say Brands big Brands especially I'm thinking like Gatorade Nike Adidas um Under Armour even like the curry brand they have stepped up and made it clear that their choice is to promote women athletes and to do that but that is beyond your pay as your job like that's like your side hustle like you also should be paid the same for your job and it's like you should get Revenue sales a percentage of Revenue sales from jerseys as a professional like women the WNBA does not get that you should have the same like tax options like they're not even allowed to like bargain over the same things that the men's league are like there's all these things that are like tucked in as think of it as like your benefits package that they're not allowed to get because they're women well and also like more broadly and we we saw it this year with the the draft but like the there aren't enough WNBA teams so League hasn't been allowed to grow because people have refused to invest in it and that is like tamping down what salaries could be and what you know like the competitiveness like it's too hard for players to stay on team so they like lose bargaining power that way because there aren't enough teams I just find yeah the WNBA is such a good microcosm yeah yeah like it's just one of the many pieces yeah it's the ecosystem that spell out P black women don't even get me started on like unpaid labor black women in the league are having to do that unpaid labor right they're having to do the interviews they're having to be on their social media saying oh yeah this is crazy they're having to watch this discourse get in with you know I'm thinking of like Asia Wilson and like and like daily having to talk about trans women and trans people in sports to carry the torch continually while you're still being under and women yeah it's I'm sweating you guys I'm getting rage Fest and you were right you know yeah there's so much about sports that tells you women are second all the time oh like how they name the teams yeah so like the WNBA and the NBA but like the W is extra the the thing for me with tennis is that when they do Grand Slams the men's final is always the culminating last event and the women's final is the day before even though the women's final as we know for many things now is garnering more viewership because it's better so it's like there's still this thing that says this is the actual end and best part and I've heard that the nwsl has thought about rebranding and I think they should just be the national soccer league and then just like Drop The W and screw MLS that's my uh cuz it's already MLS is different yeah just be the WW I mean things are getting better terms of the wage gap for black women but we've definitely got a long way to go um I'm glad people are bringing attention to things like the WNBA salaries and how whack they are and the way that brand and sponsorship deals are allocated between black women versus white women but we definitely want to dig a Little Deeper with some people who have firsthand knowledge which is why we are going to be talking to Terry carmichel Jackson executive director of The Women's National Basketball Players Association which is the wnba's union and two iconic WNBA players Aaliyah Boston and Alicia Clark who on top of being incredible athletes are both key figures in Union player leadership I will be living out my sports reporter dreams and I can't [Music] wait I am over the moon to be here with three legendary black women Terry carmichel Jackson The Ed of the wnbpa Aaliyah Boston a forward for the Indiana fever and the primary representative for her team in the wnbpa and Alicia Clark a forward on the Las Vegas Aces and the newest member of the Union's executive committee today we are talking about equal pay for black women and the way that the conversation has ramped up in general around equal pay for black women but specifically around women's basketball let's jump right into it Alicia I'm going to start with you so you got drafted in 2010 officially got into the league in 201 12 I'm wondering what you were told about the pay for the WNBA which is majority black um before you entered and kind of did what you know alter your experience of trying to get into the league yeah so when I was coming into the league um you know at the time there wasn't as much talk around the pay honestly um just because it was like a standard that's what it was and everybody knew it and so it was more so like the opportunity and how hard it was going to be to even make a team in this league um and when I came in it was a very heavy veteran League um and so I knew coming in I was going to make you know whatever the minimum was at that time I think Terry you can probably correct me but I think it was like right around maybe 50,000 or less honestly um so you just knew that's what it was going to be um but there was a sense of like Pride if you could make such a hard league and you could stick and be here um regardless of the pay because the best of the best played in this league and so for me it was just like you knew what you were going to get what you were going to get is what you were going to get and you know good luck trying to make a team and you know you hope that you can have at least a fair chance to do so um but yeah there wasn't much talk around pay just because it was almost like a hush hush thing like you don't talk about the pay that you know these players are making it's just it's a known thing and you just you don't talk about it that's so interesting to hear because I think a lot of people think you you know in their what we consider like a normal 9 to-5 job that happens like we talk a lot about pay transparency and how talking about your salary with your co-workers or colleagues can help close the wage Gap but I think a lot of us who are not in professions like the WNBA would think that's not the same so it's so interesting to hear that it's the same um for you all as well and Aaliyah you are a player who I think a lot of people probably credit with the boom of popularity and kind of the test case of all of the brand deals you secured and transitioned into the league with from college coming out of the niil class so I'm wondering how your prep into the league differs from Alicia's story yeah so for me obviously we had Anil and so that was like that was the conversation the deals you make the money you get off those deals like that was what was emphasized all the time and I remember when I had my decision to make because I could have returned to South Carolina for one more year everyone the first thing they would say was you're going to make way more money in college and that was like what they always said it would be like why don't you just come back I guarantee you you can make this amount of money to go like you're basically I'm lowering whatever I was doing right now at South Carolina to go to a league and it was so crazy because I would always try to fight back because I'm like what are you guys talking about like I feel like it is something that I think they just wanted to say to honestly discredit what was happening in the W um and the growth that's to come because I mean when you think about it like I would tell people all the time like my paycheck is basically my cost of attendance like nil deals or um brand deals I do now in the Pro like those still come like that is simple but if I'm looking at what I'm bringing home every month or every two weeks compared to what I did in college I am making way more M here okay like my C of attendance checks was it was not that and it's so I always thought it was funny when people would say you're G to make more money you're gonna or you're going to lose money going to the league and I was like you guys are so wrong like why is that the first thing that you say versus actually like putting everything down on paper and looking at what really it is to offer and then just being smarter honestly yeah I feel like another theme for this conversation is people on Twitter being wrong like people thinking they understand how things work so thank you for clearing that up if we had any of those people listening today Terry I want to ask you as the executive director of the players union I'm wondering um how you Center pay equity in your leadership and you're a lawyer too right yes all the things I'm a lawyer executive director I have the best job in the world absolutely um you know when it comes to to pay Equity you know how how you Center that how you work on that starts with our mission you know the if you go to the mission statement of the wnbpa it's all about how we look to protect and serve our members the WNBA players um how we look to make sure that their working conditions which absolutely includes how much they are paid you know are right are proper so if we start with our mission statement we start with our core values that talks about investment and ensuring that players are valued properly in the workplace well then I know what my job is and you you've heard from Aaliyah you've heard from Alicia you know particularly what Alicia was talking about you know I I think girls and women in sports particularly but it's probably true ACR many Industries they're made to feel grateful for what they have and so some of what Alicia was talking about was just being grateful to have the opportunity you know to compete for a roster spot and being grateful for the opportunity to to secure that roster spot and kind of stick in this league because it's still though we're growing it's still the hardest League to make as a professional athlete so this is the top of the top the elite of the elite um right here on this p podcast and and across this league so for me I am very hyperfocused on ensuring that their working conditions and particularly pay are proper um we did a lot of work to kind of make up the ground that Alicia was talking about going from that $50,000 you know and increasing what the minimum is and what the maximum player salary is but yet you have seen this growth I've been in this job for nine Seasons nine seasons that's so cool and year overy year they are topping themselves and so you know what we see this rookie class doing what we've seen Aaliyah do what we've seen Alicia Usher in this momentum has just kept going and so we got to look at we got to look at pay again and we got to make sure that they are getting you know their value and and particularly in this business model that they have built exactly yeah and I think it's so interesting what you brought up Alicia what you brought up Ayah of these kind of misconceptions right that women in every job get told that that be grateful be lucky you're even here oh if you take that opportunity you're actually going to make less money you know you're going to lose out on other opportunities or you know black women just don't work as hard or they take other jobs and we're sitting here on this call we've got incredibly successful decorated black women athletes Alicia you've won championships with Seattle and Vegas Aaliyah you were the unan 2023 WNBA Rookie of the Year a rookie of the year yet again proving all of that wrong I'm wondering if you both could kind of give us a little taste of what your response is to people who still believe things like that Alicia we'll start with you honestly like for me I I don't pay any mind um because at the end of the day the people that are critiquing or have something to say aren't the ones writing my checks or paying my bills and so they hold no like weight in my everyday life like yeah as you know as athletes we're on Twitter we engage with our fans we engage with people and you know different followers so there's a there's an element that you do see and pay attention but at the end of the day you just remind yourself like Bob over here with no picture and you know sitting on his Twitter all day tweeting me like I'm still over here getting paid to do what I love to and I'm still working and accomplishing things that they'll never be able to um so whether or not he has criticisms and he wants to make fun of it that's cool I'm still getting paid to do what I love um and I'm still one of the best players and one of the best players in this league and that's something that I can hang my hat on every night so I don't pay too much mine every now and then I like yeah I like chime in and throw a little you know little shot here or there because I got time something have a little fun you got to have a little fun but for the most part I just ignore it um and I just continue on like with the focus that we have to continue to grow this league continue to help it be um sustainable for your soon to come that's incredible Aaliyah do you take the same approach of not my business yeah I mean sometimes honestly sometimes I like read them for like like comedy purposes because like sometimes sometimes they're really funny but to me like I look at it and I'm like there's no way like people can sit here and like say the stuff that they say like knowing that like at the end of the day like they're watching us like they're talking all the smack but they're like literally sitting down watching us play which like at the end like I mean that's like we are we're the on Shining like at the end you're literally sitting down like thinking oh what can I say today like after you've already watched our game after you watched us have 20 and 15 after you like you know what I'm saying like it's literally just insane and sometimes I look at it I'm like wow that's a chuckle but I think something that I also started doing was really like using my block button I feel like I honestly have perfected the use of just clicking the three dots at the right and then I just click block and I never have to see it again like I I really honestly I just did it today yes it's such an amazing feeling because like we're out here like doing our job which is come out here and play basketball and win basketball games and we're having fun doing it and I feel like there should be no reason why we let someone else like affect that someone else affects our happiness coming out in this court every single day and so I just I literally block the haters that's that's literally what I do I support yeah more people need to block yeah I I am a fan of the block I've been using the block feature for a long time and I'm like listen you're right freedom speech you can say whatever you like but you will not be saying it on my page well it's just so like you said it's so I'm on our social media team here and it's like the amount of people every day in our men it's like get a job what how do you have this much time like I I don't even look at our content that much and I make it like how are you having this much time to comment on every single thing it is I will never truly understand that but I am in all support of blocking anyone and everyone um okay we're going to switch gears a little bit in kind of the vein of the popularity of women's basketball and women's sports I think if people weren't watching women's basketball and really women's sports in general before this year they really are now um but with that kind of popularity becomes a lot of different opinions from people who do not know a thing as we've talked about Terry I'm wondering if you've seen uh disparity in the way that the treatment and pay of black women players has changed in recent years have you seen it go up have you seen it go down is it still kind of fluctuating anything you've noticed well first of all if anybody hasn't been watching women's sports over the last few years shame on them and they definitely better be watching now in particularly watching the women of the W um with respect to pay you know I like I said I've been in this job nine years and I I think though there are some signs that there is hope that there you know that there is progress I think I still am a little frustrated and a little disappointed with with what I see um and what the conversations are and and you're right L this is a a league of professional women basketball players um top of the top and um largely black and brown players um so this is a league in which pay becomes a real focal point and um you know I'm I I think my source of frustration and disappointment comes from the fact that folks are still not recognizing what these women are doing on the court and off the court and how they have really built their brands and you know for some reason it seems as though the goalposts seem to move every time you know they have achieved and they have established themselves and suddenly that's not good enough there needs to be more you know there was a kind of an unfortunate talking point that that came from the league themselves about you know women can make up to or players can make up to I think their number was $700,000 you know in this league and I was like you know what that's that's that's false that's misleading don't do that let's talk about what their salaries are compensation opportunities to to make additional money yeah those exist but when I talk about moving the goalpost and kind of changing you know the metrics and changing you know the way women should be valued and the way athletes should be valued I Look to that talking point and I say shame on you for doing that because we know what the salaries are the max salaries right now and yes everybody I've got to work on that but the max salary right now is anywhere from 230 to 240 250 right $250,000 that's the max salary so how do you get to 700,000 you got to negotiate a time off bonus you got to be the MVP of the regular season so when think about that how many MVPs can there be there can only be but one and so let's not let's not send the message to women generally and to black and brown women specifically let's not send the message that you you've got to be perfect in order to make $700,000 and not only that there can only be one of you let's not do that let's value them properly in their salaries the way we look do for all the other Industries let's value them in their salaries and then show them you know the additional um opportunities to make more money through bonuses you know let's talk about their salary and let's get that right so I've seen it I'm a little frustrated by it but it energizes me to work even harder for these women good good at least I saw you you know kind of counting your fingers talking about the red tape it takes I'm wondering what what do you think it'll take for black women to be paid kind of what were owed certainly in sports but I know it's applicable to women black women working everywhere yeah um I mean I was making those spaces just because that's been like a really frustrating piece for me uh throughout this like all the changes that I've been a part of in this league right and all the conversations that have been had you know the league is making these statements that yes oh players can make you know x amount of dollars whatever whatever and it's like yeah that's for the one or two% of the top players in this league so that's for the players that already have endorsement deals that already have brands that are doing these things but what about the rest of us that are in this middle tier you know what I'm saying and it's like we don't get that opportunity we're not making the $250,000 salary we're making the middle salary we don't have a lot of Brands coming to us because they're coming to the best players on our teams and offering them those deals so for me like I have a I have a different uh perspective from that from that Viewpoint because I'm like it's it's BS and they know it is and and that's the frustra piece kind of circling back to the beginning when you know we knew what the salaries were and it's like oh don't talk about it but that's been with everything in our league it's like oh well don't don't bring that up because if you do then they're going to look at our Le in a bad light and it's like well things keep getting swept under the rug and nothing is changing so until we bring light to these issues until we bring light to things that aren't to things that are being told that aren't the truth nothing's going to change there's going to be no accountability there's going to be no pressure on them to do better but I think that kind of just goes hand in hand with the like be grateful right right and you're in a league of black women where it's like we know we have to work two times as hard we know we have to be two times as smart we know we have to be do above and beyond to just be considered in the same playing field and it's like okay well we don't want to like ruffle the feathers we don't want to be that person because when we when we do we're looked at in a different way and so that's been the the part for me that has really like made me happy is this younger generation these young classes comeing in aren't afraid to step up and speak out aren't afraid to show as themselves aren't afraid to challenge status quo um and that's something that I think is what's going to help push for black women and and particular in our league like to be able to P be paid the same is having players like that that aren't afraid that are going to push that envelope and and stand on it and not be afraid of it and I think what you're seeing now um is more Brands being like wow there are so many more stories to tell there are so many other amazing women in in this league let's like tell their story let's let's show these other little girls and boys that like you can find someone that's like you and be able to Aspire to be that and so this Young Generation has definitely helped push that narrative to where we can you know be in the same level of playing field with everyone what she is talking about is is truly energizing for us at the staff and as the staff of the Union it is energizing for us to hear that the players want us to push and do more and be go big and be bold and Alicia is absolutely right and what we have seen are more more companies kind of coming to us and talking to us um and looking to build Partnerships and they come in with terms that maybe are a little lower than what we thought what we would expect but because we're riding off of this energy of our members who say go big and be bold we're pushing them a little bit more and we're seeing Partnerships at least with the Union we're seeing Partnerships that we haven't seen in in a long time and I'm really really proud of that so it still gives me a little hope yeah that's energizing for sure and on both of those points that's a trend we're seeing um Nationwide too where younger Generations are saying we are going to talk about what we're getting paid um a big part of salary transparency too is only being offered what you've been paid before right when you apply for a job they say how much would you like to get paid and if you only know what you've gotten paid that's all you're going to ask for so um you know we're doing work in states to kind of ban asking that question to your point Alicia like don't ask what we you know let's not incr Ally move up from where we've been let's like keep going you know I I know what you can do let's not worry about what you've been giving us so far um CU that's not a productive place to start um and Aaliyah I want to go to you I'm wondering aside from uh fever and uh liberally using the block button I'm wondering how you think we as uh black women can continue to fight for all of these incredible things equal pay and just respect without kind of getting discouraged it can be heavy to take on this fight it definitely can I feel like the biggest thing is like don't go away like we know what we deserve to make we know what we just deserve in general and you know sometimes like yes you said it's easy to get discouraged but I think if you are very passionate about how you feel about what you should be making or how you're looked at whether that's in the media or just getting a job like you can't shy away from like fighting that battle because like no one else is going to fight it for us except for ourselves and so to be confident like I feel like that's something that like we're used to is like fighting like as bad as that sounds like I feel like that's just what we do like we fight no matter whose battle it is like I feel like black women are always the first one to stand up um and try to defend the person next to them and so we never get tired of fighting for someone next to us I feel like we can never get tired of fighting for ourselves because at the end of the day like there will literally be no one else that stands up for us the way that we can and the way that we should other than ourselves such a great point we always like to end here with joy National Women's Law Center we always save for justice and for Joy so I'm wondering to leave on a positive note what's giving you all hope what's giving you life right now it can be about basketball it can be about black girl Joy it can be about a new sweater you just got that you love what's your joy oh for me I'd say it's definitely been like my family um like I feel like there are always people that I always go to and I feel like even though that they're not in Indiana with me like we're always on the phone where I was talking so definitely just staying connected to them no matter what that's awesome yeah I think for me is twofold um my niece and nephew so my niece just started High School my nephew um is eight and so for them just being of the generation that like they get to see strong women succeed and do things and it's normal to them and so being able to plant those seeds for them at this young age um especially you know in particular my nephew to I think it's been really awesome and you know getting to go home and be around them and just like see how they process and and you know pay attention to what I'm doing um I think it was it was really cool to witness as they've gotten older um and then the other thing for me is like seeing everyone like in particular my teammates and just people from the league like getting to have their Moment Like This is something that players have worked so hard for and even people I don't know anybody on like on the Olympics like I've been dying watching them all I'm like Oh my like I'm in tears I'm a big crybaby but like watching them win or compete and just seeing them shine in their moments I'm like how freaking dope is that like I've been cheesing year to year so that's been that's been bringing me a lot of Joy too what about you Terry what's bringing you Joy what brings me joy um I'm going to be honest with you all and Aaliyah and Alicia are going to think I'm just saying this but this job gives me joy that's incredible thank you guys thank you so much alyah and Alicia thank y'all I appreciate [Music] you Kay is a Wonder media Network production in partnership with the National Women's Law Center it is hosted and produced by Jessica Baskerville Lark Lewis and Hillary Woodward our producers are Taylor Williamson and Abby dulk Jenny Kaplan is our executive producer and Maddie Foley is our editor show art by Andrea suar I'm white but so this whole time I know first you find out I'm a vegetarian and now this