ADM Discussion with Roger Grillo from USA Hockey

um so i again i apologize for the the technical issues um everybody for taking the time to tonight what we're gonna do is just have a little talk about uh about player development and american development model and some of the things that we see as we travel not over the united just the united states but certainly all over the the globe and um right now usa hockey's kind of considered the one of the gold standards for player development and um we were obviously making some really big inroads there was a tweet that went out today where um i think out of the top 10 scores in the nhl um seven of them were americans which is uh pretty impressive compared to where we were maybe 25 30 years ago so what we're really going to talk about is is as parents and as administrators and coaches is is really making sure that you you really understand the age of the athletes that you're coaching and understand and embrace the sports science that goes in hand with it and so a big part of the adm is age appropriateness and a huge part of the american development model is based off child development science and and really what needs to happen at what point in an athlete's or a young child's um physical mental cognitive and emotional development and i think one of the biggest mistakes that that we all make and certainly i i'm guilty of it as well as i think back to my son in in his his hockey and baseball and other sports and you know just kind of getting a little impatient and trying to what we call speed farm development um and anytime you speed farm uh we know that uh uh and patience doesn't become a priority uh a lot of negative things happen on the on the on the back side of that and the biggest one in our sport is is burnout and uh what we say is is is building the foundation for our young players so that we don't have to do a bunch of renovations when they're older because if you're doing renovations to athletes and if it's in certain areas of the of the foundation it's really really difficult and we'll talk more about that so know the age of the athletes that you're working with and understand and embrace the science and really what the adm is based off of if you look at these two graphs female and male the the line here is the rate of growth for the athletes the phv is basically puberty that's peak height for velocity that's that's when they're at the peak of their growth and obviously that that dot can slide either direction for the females and males based on each individual athlete this is an average and you can see that the female athletes are a little bit earlier than the male athletes and then we call these the windows of trainability and so these would be some things that that would be really the the the the base or the foundation of what we're trying to make sure we're delivering to our athletes and so we have we have coaches that are worried about getting kids in shape and and conditioning them and the sports science will tell you because of lung capacity um that that's that's a waste of time down here it's a waste of time in two areas it's not going to have an impact uh positively and the negative impact is certainly taking something that's supposed to be fun and turn it into a full-time job at a young age and this first window or this first box is suppleness which is basically their athleticism and that's why there's only really two early specialization sports and that's figure skating and gymnastics particularly on the female side um and so we would say that that if i'm coaching young players i'm not even trying to make a hockey player in fact if i'm trying to make a hockey player i'm probably going about it the wrong way i'm just trying to make a really good young athlete um and and making sure that fun and building passion for the game uh is is at the the top of the the pyramid for us this early speed window and this is where the europeans are so far ahead of us it's frightening um sweden just spent two years on an analytic study on what format and ice size is best for their athletes so all the way up to age 14 their bantams their bantams will play half a season of half ice hockey because what they learned through the analytics study is that that format is most conducive to player development at 8u they will play the entire season four on four and one-sixth of the rank that'll be their game format and and why is that it's because they want conflict they want touches they want repetitions they want kids bumping into each other they want kids having to problem solve and they don't want to give kids time and space they want kids to have to create time and space with their head their hands and their feet and what we do over here united states with our young athletes in a lot of sports is we give them time and space and really kind of set our kids up for failure later on when when the problem solving and the decision making becomes the priority for the great athletes and then obviously the skill window here uh is really a big piece of the development the golden age of skill development so now we're focused on touches and repetitions um and and what happens the the pressure that a lot of our coaches feel is that and we would say to you that anytime you step on the ice in a game we want you to try to win but we don't want you to take any shortcut to get to the win we want to be competitive we want to win we want we all want to win championships we all want to win gold medals that's that's just part of our nature and that's nothing wrong with that but if i'm if i'm recruiting all the top players and putting them on one team if i'm shortening my bench and key moments of the game if i'm only playing my best goalie against the best teams if i'm putting in systems and team play and structure so that my team has more success in games then really i'm kind of doing the thinking for the athletes i'm kind of taking away that creativity and i'm really at the end of the day i'm harming my athletes long-term development um and so really embracing the creativeness and and the player development culture is really really critical for our kids and and i tell parents and coaches all the time there's a reason why there's no honors classes in elementary school because what you teach to the brightest kid in your class and the weakest kid in your class is the same it's the foundation it's the stuff that's going to lead them well down the road when they when it becomes age appropriate they're going to be separated out by ability but when i'm coaching a young athlete in any sport i'm just trying to build the foundation i'm trying to make make sure they have great coordination balance agility that they're having fun that they're building passion i'm helping them get better that they feel safe they're enjoying their friends and then it's not a full-time job at the age of 10. and that's that's really what this whole thing's about so if there's any questions about this this graph or what i've said so far and at any time anybody can certainly feel free to unmute themselves and fire away there's no bad question at all um and it can be about anything and and the other part about this graph that's really important is up until this phv we as the adults are kind of in charge of the the the player development meaning that we have a big say in it what they do and how they do it when they do it but when a kid gets to about 13 14 you kind of pass the responsibility for development onto the athlete and so passion and their their want to get better is what really separates the the good from the great because now the non-fun stuff's going to start that's getting in shape that's getting faster and more explosive and that's getting stronger now what i eat how i rest my commitment to the sport my commitment to development my commitment to getting better the sacrifices i might need to make that other people might might not be willing to make that's really what's going to allow me to take the next step as an athlete and so the responsibility gets passed over the athlete but we see a lot of times when they hit this mark a lot of the eyes have rolled back in their head they somebody passed that responsibility down here at 6 7 8 10 12 and they just don't have the drive to really kind of get after anymore and they plateau off or they quit the sport and they're gone and it's really a sad situation when when we first started the american development model we had 6 000 kids a year quit mike hockey just in the state of massachusetts alone just quit just get right up and just drop out and part of it was back in the day there was a league that had full ice full body checking and kids would travel three hours to play a game there was teams in albany new york portland maine burlington vermont and they were all over new england and and kids just they just shriveled up and and died off because they just it was too much too soon um and so what's happened here in a lot of parts of the country and not just hockey but audio sports is the competition model who i play with who i play against what's my record um really took over the training model especially at a time when you know the outdoor unstructured play has has dried up as well um and and i can tell you that that growing up in minnesota myself and the the the generations of of people just ahead of me the the 80 olympic team guys dear family friend mark pavlich passed away tragic ending to his life um but um uh th that generation my generation the generation before them it was the outdoor ranks it was 20 hours a week of street hockey pond hockey you know san juan baseball driveway basketball it was nonstop and that's kind of gone away and and everybody's focused now on the competition piece and the other mistake that's made by a lot of the adults is they think that competition is going to drive development that if i put my child as a 10 year old in the same locker room on the same team with the best players that they're going to get dragged along and they're going to become better and and i can tell you that that is one of the great falsenesses of of player development that's speed farming and and your your child is better off being the top three on a b or c team than the bottom three or bottom half of the top team because if you're chasing and you're not scoring goals and you're not feeling good about yourself you're probably not getting better and i can tell you that 98 of the athletes that you watch in any sport went through some type of struggle or adversity and big time struggling adversity there's exceptions but those are the few and far between i can remember when one of my former players marty saint louis was inducted into the hockey hall of fame two years ago um sitting up in toronto with his mom and dad and listening to him speak and the only other player that went in that year was martin you know america nhl player was mark tim brodeur and and marty st louis was cut from his 12u team cut from his 14u team we took him at the university of vermont was never drafted my uncle was the gm in san jose at the time couldn't get my uncle to draft him in the last round nobody would sign him he had to play an international hockey league and he's one of the greatest players ever played the game marty broder quit hockey at the age of 14 for an entire season and and and because he just wasn't very good and uh to hear the greatest in our in our sport and certainly in other sports we all know the story about jordan getting cut from his high school team it's it's it's the struggle is part of the journey it's how we handle the struggle and it's not we we're trying to win the race to the wrong finish line and and that is trying to develop the best player at 12. and and most of the best players that i see at 12 for the most part i can't find them at 15 and 16 because it was just too much too soon this is this is what these are the numbers that really scare us when we see this we see these numbers and we really get kind of frightened about what what's happening and this was this wasn't this past season this was the season before with 48 000 kids playing hockey and mass 24 nhl players finland with 39 000 so almost 10 000 fewer 66 nhl players in sweden with 41 103 nhl players and what's the difference between finland and sweden they don't have leagues until the age of 14. majority of the kids play within their own little hometown the entire focus of the coaches at the younger ages is the individual athlete not the team they don't coach the team they coach the individuals they have a huge commitment to uh an athletic lifestyle the kids come to the rink two three times a week but there's also a 30 minute office session which i'll show you in a second and we'll talk more about that but when we see these numbers we say you know what we got some pretty good coaches we've got a lot of nice ranks we got we got a lot of kids playing hockey usa hockey's breaking every record we've ever had in terms of kids signing up to play even through the pandemic our numbers stayed stronger than most other youth sports which is shocking because you know we're in indoors we're in a rink and there's a lot of issues there with through the pandemic but um we know we can do better and and we're working and we are and we are those numbers are going to change you're going to see those numbers as we move through the next 10 years are probably going to double if not more embracing failure you know not not not um not trying to have your young child be perfect that understanding that failure is the greatest teacher of all learning through mistakes learning through struggle and adversity that's a huge part of the journey and and i know as as as a youth sport dad that's not easy to do it's never fun to see your kids struggle or get cut or not make to make the grade at a certain stage in their development and it hurts but it's it's part of the process and and it's a really important part of the process um and so embracing failure is really critical and the great coaches i've been around not only do they embrace it they actually force it to happen the great coaches i've been around their practices are more difficult in the game emotionally and mentally but it's safe it's safe they're not kids aren't going to know they're not going to get yelled at they're not going to get punished they're going to be encouraged to stretch themselves to get out of their comfort zone to really work on their weaknesses um so that if they do have the passion when they get older they have the base to get to get better and move on and so this is the this is the difference that i talked about before with us and between us and some of the european countries with that commitment to the individual athletes development so if i'm if i'm handed a team of 13 kids i don't coach the three if i'm a good teacher i don't teach the class i teach the students i don't teach the top students i don't teach to the middle students i don't teach to the bottom students i teach to the individual students i i try to get my better students to to be challenged and as much as they want or need i'm gonna push them a little bit i'm gonna really work hard with my weaker students so that they feel good and safe and comfortable but that they're they're they're gonna work at it and feel good about it same thing as a coach working with the different individual athletes needs it's not easy but it's really important this is the one that's really been missing for a long time in our sport and that is if you give me an athlete in any sport that's playing chess they're going to have a chance to play for a long time because most of the players are playing checkers the people that think the game better that see the game better that read the game better those are the ones that are going to move on and and there's two there's two huge characteristics of high-end athletes in in most sports their computers better than most and their compete levels higher than most and so if we can attack those two things or make sure we we protect those two things and encourage those two aspects of player development then we're probably going to do a pretty good job of making some pretty good players so what's happening around the country is this is a group of peewees out in michigan one of my co-workers with his son's organization once once a month they play four on four half ice with the with a board system and a netting system but they practice and train like this all the time because what we learned through the pond and what i learned from the great coaches is i'm not going to make a player better by telling him what to do i'm going to make a player better by putting them in the environment and culture that forces them to get to experience the experience and the game within the practice is going to be the teacher it's just like driver's ed it's just like learning how to ride a bike right we can tell kids all the time what to do but they have to experience it they have to fail they have to learn through trial and error and that's all part of the process and it's really important in new sport this is what i was talking about before a commitment to a quality office program the athleticism piece and this is a group of 14 year olds that we worked with over in finland in their national camp two winters ago and then i spent a week up in romaneki the year before kovid this is a group of 10 year olds in the lobby of their rank three times a week 35 minutes before every practice and i just want you to watch these 10 year olds it's just simple they had four stations they had body um you know agility coordination balance footwork they're doing tumbling over here on an old gray mat that was pretty disgusting and at the other end of the lobby they're doing some other things with the upper body stuff and some core stuff but just look at the rhythm of the kids and and the agility and coordination and the change direction which we know is at the base of all your skating and so to make a great skater is it just the skating or is it the ability to to move with rhythm and with confidence and all that other stuff so for us this is the base and then these 14 year olds because the finns understand sports science they're delivering core body strength and they're delivering hand-eye coordination while they're moving it's simple but ingenious and our kids aren't getting a lot of this at all if you look at your child's pe schedule we used to get this back and i'm an old fart we used to get this back in the old presidential fitness testing in school we had pe an hour a day plus probably another hour of recess or after school activity you're lucky if your kid gets an hour of pe a week um maybe a little bit more in some other schools but it's just it's it's that's what's dried up probably the most in our academic setting in schools which is really a shame because that was a big base of a lot of the older athletes athleticism because they were they were they were being asked to do things that they probably weren't being asked to do in their daily lives in use for and so when we test some of our best players these are really good 14 and 16 new players that'll play in some of these kids are playing in college hockey right now but you ask yourself are they going to reach their full potential if their base of athleticism is that poor and we would say no they're deficient their their foundation is not very strong and it's going to come back to hurt them at some point because they just don't do it they're not asked to do it this is simple cartwheels and tumbling and they're highly highly highly deficient because a lot of the focus is on everything that happens on the ice and then we would say to you as coaches in particular if i'm going to deliver we have a lot of coaches that run their 20 minutes of edge work and power skating we would say to you that there's five elements to almost everything you do in practice fun is number one element two is constant decision making three is game like four is touches and repetitions and five is challenging and we would say everything you do in practice needs to have those five elements so when we talk about edge work stops and starts changing direction agility coordination and balance simple box tag you got to get two feet in and two feet out before the two players in the middle or the one player in the middle can tag you and so the kids don't know i call it flintstone vitamins they have no idea that they're doing edgework because they're just trying to get in out of the box without getting tagged but it forces them to make a read it forces them to have spatial awareness it forces them to compete it raises the temperature the the the the pace and the intensity and the focus and the drive goes way up because they're having fun and and player development goes that much faster and the and the change in athletes when this type of training is committed to is a game changer and i tell coaches all the time like i said before i spent about 20 hours a week as a kid growing up on the outdoor rinks in minnesota when it was not too warm we never went there and did power skating we never went there and did edge work if we lost a puck in the snow bank we figured out a tape ball or an ice chunk or something or we went home because we went there to play and you got to have that mindset with young athletes you got it's got to be fun it's got the big fun's got to be at the at the base of everything you do and if it's not development really gets hampered big time so that's kind of a quick real quick little spiel that's my email address that's my cell phone number and if you if you don't want to ask a question here you're more than welcome to email me or call me um i'm the regional i get paid my salary is paid for by the nhl um the nhl is completely committed to this i'm the liaison the college hockey for usa hockey i coached division one college hockey for 20 years i've coached eight of our national teams had the opportunity to coach with and against the best players in our game and so this stuff we're talking about isn't just something that we just kind of made up this is years and years and years of experience and research and thought that's gone into this program and and i have personally spoken to major league baseball u.s lacrosse u.s soccer us skiing u.s women and diving u.s volleyball canada baseball hockey canada australian rugby's football new zealand um football it's not called rugby but they have a different name for it um and uh everybody's looking at what they're doing and they're making big changes to their sport us 10 i mean every every basically every youth sport now has an adm us football they've all adopted some of these principles and it's because it's just it's kind of common sense in a lot of ways so that's kind of a quick overview of of what we're trying to get people to kind of step back and think about and and digest and and hopefully implement because we know that if more people are doing this we're going to have more those numbers i showed you before are going to grow i will say that if you're going to do something really well it's not easy and there's going to be people that are going to punch holes in it there's going to be people that are going to push back because it's change and and so it makes it more difficult but it's well well well well worth it so i'll open up to any questions or comments or thoughts i got a question so how are you doing roger mark you said this i've talked to you a few times in the past you probably don't remember because you do a lot of these hopefully uh kevin xena and chris may don't have the controls because they're probably gonna mute me knowing those guys but uh so mine's a little bit more specific so i apologize i've got some older kids i've got a one going to u16 next year and i got one who's got who's finishing second year peewee gonna start phantoms yep so the way the u16 program that he's with it's much more full ice um he's on the high school team and really a lot of that's just prep for high school so just talking about you know the adm model um stuff like that like what are they really looking to see to get across at that level you know you know we don't got 60 kids on the ice it's you know 15 to 18 with two goalies we're usually breaking up d on one end forwards on the other working on specific things then we'll get them together like what are some things that we could talk about there and then the other question is my peewee that's going to start phantoms and introducing to checking um how does the adm really want us to talk to that about you know they're all excited to hit everyone wants the highlight reel espn you know the big hit to be honest with you i think that checking at this age group is awful everyone uh so many kids have got their heads down there's a lot of just open ice hits a lot of bad hits just what are some of the things you're seeing with usa hockey that can help me kind of get the message across that there's two different age groups we want we want body contact and body uh checking to start the first day kids start hockey i think the biggest mistake because coaches don't do any of it in practice and then they say it 14 you here you go go check but ask our pee wee coaches that allow full body checking in every practice do it it's just like driver's ed you know you can't just say go do it there's because there's a lot of factors that come into play it's angling it's it's your footwork it's where your stick's located it's it's it's steering it's taking away space it's it's your reads it's your routes there's so much that comes in the checking everybody thinks it's the actual hit and i would tell you that if you watch now it's a little disappointing what's going on with the nhl right now um and i think part of it is because the way the schedule's set up those guys are getting sick of seeing each other four or five six times and there's been some animosities being you know built up but i also think that the referees have kind of let some things go uh as of late and and we've had discussions about it ourselves and and hopefully we'll see some changes here soon but we would say to you that if you really look at the great like to me the best checker on the bruins is bergeron but he doesn't blow people up but he uses his body so well he uses a stick so well he wins bucks he wins space and that's why he's considered one of the best players in the league because he can do everything but he's really good at using his body properly and and everybody thinks of checking as a hit checking is not a hit and in fact most of your top players in the league they don't finish their checks very often unless the puck's still there or unless they're trying to send a message which at the nhl level is completely different than youth hockey right um and we would say to you to finish your check takes yourself out of the play and at the next level it's all about numbers can i get back in and support defensive line offensively so checking piece is really really really critical and it's a missing piece for a lot of our coaches and we we've made a really strong push on that for the last three or four years and we'll continue to do that uh this the first part of your question i don't know how youth coaches run a practice with 15 16 kids i had 30 plus guys my size every practice and those guys were gassed because i i want quality i want my practice to be more intense and more difficult in the game i think the beauty of a guy like belichick is if you talk to people his practices aren't physically demanding because he's trying to manage that physical output they have to you know the the the strain of an nfl season but emotionally and mentally extremely demanding because he's forcing failure you know monday through saturday so that doesn't happen on sunday and and and so we tend to do a lot of things in open space around cones around circles without any conflict and and we we talk about our players heads not being up well there's a simple way to have your players heads get up put them in conflict like if i'm gonna learn my head's gonna it's because i want to crash into somebody but we put kids on 200 by 85 starting at the age of some places five or six years old all there is is space they never have to pick their head up because it's one move they hit the burners and they're gone for a breakaway it's just not hockey and and so we we kind of set our kids up for failure and and and i always tell coaches who's the problem is it the coach or the the the athlete when you set up a solemn course with cones where are you forcing the kid's head to be down and then saturday you're telling to pick his head up and the kid should just turn around to the coach and say hey then don't make me go around these cones that are on the ice like you're forcing my head you're training me to do the exact opposite of what you want me to do and so you know if i were to show you what the what the swedes and the fins are doing it's a ton of small spatial with big numbers it's 30 kids in one zone with each having a puck don't crash pick your head up find space maneuver problem solve find this find the lane find the scene find the open space and and we don't do that over here enough and that's that's and but that's what we had on the pond we went on the pond without helmets with a hat on we never played a full if there was a full ice game and an outdoor rink it was probably 10 on 10 or 12 on 12. we were not going to go 200 by 85 with 10 guys five on five we just weren't going to do that and and so and i have a really good friend who's the head coach who's the head coach at brown university in soccer when i was there and now he's a head coach of clemson i did a webinar with him and i asked him i said mike how often do you you have you have the top one of the top division one men's soccer programs in the country how many times do you do a full field drill he says we can't we never would do a full field drill it's insanity to think about that i'm gonna have my guy go that far for a shot i want him to go two feet and take a shot i want to go five feet and take a shot i want him to go three feet and have to make a decision am i gonna pass or am i gonna make a move i don't want him to have to go half the field before that happens because i'm trying to manage their physical output for their mental input and their decision-making input and that's that's the beauty of small spaces that's why that's why the swedes are changing their complete game format so for your 16 year olds you know what even if if they hand you a full sheet of ice with 15 kids i don't i might do one full ice drill but i'm gonna i'm gonna back them down and i'm going to get them in conflict in game like situations because today the modern game at the higher level i can show you clip after clip i have a bunch of them clip after clip after clip of 10 guys in the nhl on one sixth of the rink it's about numbers when i played and i was a left defenseman if the puck was in the right corner i wasn't allowed to go in that corner i was going to stay on the far post i was going to guard the post just in case the post ever scored now if my d partner is in a battle unless their second guy gets in like tonight or last night against the islanders or whatever that last game was monday night i can't remember when the last game was i got to get in there and help because i don't want my team my teammate to get outnumbered i got to get numbers around the puck so it's about swarming it's about outnumbering it's not about position play position play is how do we win the puck back or how do we continue to possess it it's not stand at the hashmark the far post the blue line it's about reads and routes and we got to put kids in those situations more and more often because they're not doing it on the pond or in the street so two really really good questions thank you so questions i hope i answered them no you did thank you appreciate it anybody else hi this is francine my son is um and uh he's on the triple a team this is only his third year playing but he loves it freeze it eats it all the hockey i already signed up for deck hockey um but he's going to midgets next season do you have any advice for us in terms of what um just like this summer he normally goes to clinics greg carter and all different clinics all summer um focusing on it but he's six he's gonna be 16 no he's 14. he's going to be 15. maybe 15 but he aged out of out of uh bantams yes okay so he's a he's an old five he's oh six oh six october yep okay oh he's got the bad bird thing okay yes so i would say to you that at his age at what he my suggestion to you was the biggest mistake that's made is the whole office piece where you can make a big the biggest impact at that stage if you go back to that graph i shared is on there getting stronger more explosive and and you think about you think about a guy like tom brady why is he able to play so much longer he just he committed himself to a quality training program early on he's extended his career he's been able to maintain his athleticism for a very long time because he's committed to all the stuff that needs to happen away from the stadium and and that's that's what's that's what you know you think about a guy like tiger woods right tiger woods changed golf not because he was so good but because he was the first golfer that looked like a a tight end like physically he was he was a machine and he trained he trained at it he he got his reps in he played but he trained like he was strong he was explosive and now you look at the guys on the on the pro goal he changed golf because now they all look like they're unbelievably conditioned strong athletes they're all into that now and so that changed the game i mean in my generation gretzky had a comment once i've nev i'll never lift the weight because i've never seen a barbell score a goal well i got to help the rangers run training camp when gretzky was there because i was the associate head coach at the university of vermont and had training camp up in burlington and gretzky changed his tomb later in his career because he wanted to extend it you have no idea what's going on behind the scenes with these athletes i mean it's some it's just amazing at how they eat and how hard they train it but the biggest mistake that's made by a lot of our young athletes is they think that playing 60 70 games playing summer leagues is gonna help them become better players and they don't commit to a four day five day a week really good training program away from the rink that's the game changer now you need to find somebody that that can assess your son and where he's at physically and skeletally so you don't want to be pushing weight if he's not ready for it but he needs if you want if his passion is to try to play at the next level what's going to separate him from the rest of the group and i would say still go be involved in some hockey stuff for sure but that four or five days a week in a weight room with somebody that knows what they're doing that's going to be the big game changer for him okay that that sounds good i mean he's this is only his third year playing hockey he had one year of peewee and then he was bantam a last season and just pushed and pushed and worked so hard and made you know the aaa team this year and then he was taken out in december with a broken clavicle in a game so he set up for 11 11 weeks and um you know went to every game practices just you know stayed committed to the team and is back on the ice and games now and he really wants to keep going and i just didn't i just wanted to know if there was a you know a good path we should keep him motivated and keep going there's no secret pill there's no secret strategy the guys that i've been around and the girls that i've been around that have taken that next step are the ones that are are are truly committed meaning that they're willing to really kind of get after it when everybody else wants to go to the beach and and they're tired and i would say at your son's age if that's his goal that's what he's got to do he's got he's got to separate himself from the pack with his his training regimen it's it goes back to the slide i showed you with the competition versus the training you don't get better by playing like if you really took a stopwatch and you watched your kids play during the game and you saw if you took the time they're sitting in a car time they're in the locker room getting dressed time in the locker room getting undressed time in the car sit get going home from the game and then you added that or you subtracted it from the amount of time they're actually active on the ice depending on the roster size and what happened in the game if we ran piano lessons like that we'd be out of business in a week because your kid would be sitting at the piano for 15 minutes for about two or three hour time frame and you'd be furious as a parent because you'd be like how's my kid going to get better at the piano if they're only doing 15 minutes but we committed to three hours but you think about it if there's 15 kids on the team and then periods are 15 minutes they're out there every third shift that's 15 minutes of activity if there's no penalties and every kid stays a minute shift it's it's dysfunctional and that's why everybody gets so caught up in the games listen we want you to play games we want you to have fun but think about all the other stuff that needs to go into place for your kids to get better if that's what their ultimate goal is if you just want to play if you just want to play the sport there's nothing wrong with that but if truly down deep you want to try to play at the next level that's a whole nother that's a whole other conversation okay thank you yup great question any other any other questions for roger before we uh sign off all right well um really quickly before we log off um natalie help me pull the winner of the 150 pure hockey gift card that's going to go to don linnell so don i will email you tomorrow with uh the information for the gift card congratulations um and with that roger thank you so much for joining tonight uh definitely means a lot to to the program and um and if anybody has questions after you know they can either come through me email roger directly um but uh with that everybody i hope you have a good night thank you very much thanks roger thanks everybody reach out if you have questions thanks roger good man take care thanks roger