The Conviction of Steve Pankey: End Of An Era

hello everyone I'm Ed Densel and I host unfound and I run this YouTube channel I realize you don't want to give a thumbs up to the following video until you watch it you know what that's totally understandable I can appreciate that but what you can do right now is subscribe to this channel the button is right there thanks have you signed up for unfound's other podcast unfound live yet thank you on October 14th 2019 I conducted an interview with Steve Pankey a suspect in the murder of 12 year old Janelle Matthews in December 1984. today due to Steve being convicted on October 31st 2022 I end this era of unfound by reflecting on the past three years I'm at dunsel and this is unfound [Music] thank you I'm going to save the insights and reflecting for after the original interview so let's get right to this a summary of the case Janelle Matthews was a 12 year old who had been born in Santa Barbara California she was then adopted and grew up in Greeley Colorado an hour north of Denver Janelle had an older sister and sang in the School chorus while Janelle's father was a principal in another school district Janelle seemed to be just your average girl at the edge of her teen years however during the trial as testified by a friend at the Time Janelle believed she was being followed by someone in addition Janelle expressed antipathy toward her parents and even spoke about skipping school on December 21st 1984. however she disappeared the evening before so on December 20th 1984 Janelle had sung with other students in a concert downtown after Russell Ross the father of a friend of Janelle's gave her a ride home Russell's daughter was also there Russell dropped Janelle off noting that her House's garage door was not closed Janelle would be there alone until her father came home when he did about an hour later Janelle wasn't there she was never seen again an investigation started immediately and the following information was discovered footprints in the snow around the house that someone tried to rake over and that Janelle had answered the home phone well after Russell Ross dropped her off and nothing seemed to be wrong although the caller said Janelle sounded like a seven-year-old and not a 12 year old in July 2019 by complete luck a pipeline digging crew came across remains 18 miles south of Greeley that proved to be Janelle she had been shot in the head but not all of her bones were there her legs are still missing to this day not long after police made public the name of a suspect that had been on their radar for several years Stephen Dana panky over the years Stephen had made comments to many different people inside and outside of law enforcement saying in so many words that he knew what happened to Janelle in October 2020 Weld County Colorado charged Steve with Janelle's murder a trial on October 2021 ended in a hung Jory the second trial in October 2022 ended with Steve being convicted and sentenced to 20 years for Janelle's murder as the original October 14 2019 interview with Steve Panky plays please contemplate these three questions number one why would someone if guilty put himself on the radar of a murder investigation when there was no scientific evidence that would have ever led to him number two the opposite question why would someone if innocent insert himself into a murder investigation but then play Coy with investigators about information connected to the murder and number three does the conviction of Steve Panky mean that there are many killers out there who are responsible for disappearances that we've covered unfound that are unknown to everyone but law enforcement Janelle's family had never heard of Steve Pankey until 2019 so they could have never suspected him as the murderer over the preceding 35 years the guest for this episode is Steve Panky it is a replaying of the interview that played on October 14th 2019. unfound news the newest unfound now is available to the public on the unfound podcast Channel on YouTube I analyze The Disappearance of Lorenzo Holmes who disappeared from a cruise ship in the Gastineau channel in Juneau Alaska on August 8th 2022. next I posted kind of a questionnaire in the discussion group on Facebook at the beginning of this week have you seen it it has to do with patreon I urge you to read it and give me some constructive insight and advice finally it's time for another Dr telesco show we will go live on her YouTube channel at 7 pm Eastern on November 16th that's a Thursday please tune in where you can find unfound on these following podcast platforms Spotify iTunes Stitcher podbean and many others especially outside the United States the new podcast unfound live which comes out on Tuesdays can also be found on these platforms social media sites YouTube Facebook Instagram Twitter and the newest one tick tock listener support sites patreon.com forward slash unfound podcast paypal.me forward slash unfound podcast the website the unfoundpodcast.com the email address unfoundpodcast gmail.com and please mention unfound at all True Crime websites and forums thank you I'm happy to have on this special edition of unfound a person who we might call a person of interest of course you the listeners will determine uh whether that makes any sense or not his name is his name is Steve panky and he's being investigated for The Disappearance and now murder of Janelle Matthews Steve welcome to unfound thank you all right thank you for having me you're very welcome and I'm sure the listeners know that this is a unique kind of interview that I'm doing but you had contacted me and I thought I had I had an obligation as a journalist to answer um the call to interview you we of course found the program somehow I guess you thought that I would treat you fairly and I have you have my word that I'm going to do that in this interview in the end it will be up to the listeners to determine whether you're telling the truth or not um so let's just start here just give the listeners a little bit about your background your education where you've lived relationship work and of course I think many people know that you ran for a political office a few years ago but just give them a little bit about who you are um you know what makes Steve Panky Steve panky I graduated from La plenty Alternative High School with the GED it's uh La Quinta California uh I graduated from Ames Community College in Greeley Colorado with an Associate associates degree with a minor in criminal justice uh I lived in Greeley Colorado from 1973 through the end of about 1986. uh I first had a love relationship with a man named John's out for many years I was married to my wife Angela for 23 years from 1979 to 2001. we had two sons Mark and Carl uh Mark is my best friend and Carl it was murdered on the 4th of July in 2008 by his ex-girlfriend I would say an apprentice mortician in California I was Apprentice mortician in Idaho uh I was a youth pastor in Colorado I would be a used car dealer in Colorado and most of my life in Idaho I've been in Idaho since 1989. and I've been a property manager property rental owner most of the time in 2014 in 20 18 I ran for governor first and the I first I was the Constitution party uh candidate and then in the primary I was kicked out in 2018. in the Republican uh primary for Idaho governor okay now I know that you've done some uh other interviews before this one um maybe some TV interviews with video maybe some just audio ones too and and in those I know that some criminal charges not to say that you were actually convicted or anything have did come up I think that's on the record now I I'm sure the listeners would like to hear a little bit more about that being that we are doing this interview concerning a a young woman a girl who who disappeared and then was murdered what did um some of these allegations against you what were some of those allegations going I guess back to the 1970s uh I wanna make absolutely sure that everyone understands at no time have I ever been accused of any crime dealing with anybody under the age of 18 I just want to keep that up front all right in 1968 in California I was 17 and I was laying in the grass kissing another 17 year old boy and we were arrested on some misdemeanor charts he had marijuana on him I didn't and that was my very first arrest in 1970s my family has always been divided over my my family's long history of homosexuality and it's always been divided over and there was a family argument which ended in a fight and I was charged with uh uh something like misdemeanor battery it was dropped I was not the instigator in that yeah uh in Colorado in 1977 I was a youth pastor at Sunnyview the now defunct front of you Church of the Nazarene I was 26. I was dating a woman who would also acted in the church she was 23 years old and she became pregnant my child and she and her mother went to England had a an abortion came back we had sex again she told me that she confirmed to me that she did get an abortion I was upset and threatened to tell the church I was next accused of formerly accused of State rape uh back in 1977 polygraphs were like real important back then I took a polygraph past it and under 1977 standard she was asked to she did it declined the charge was dropped uh I was charged with exactly 20 misdemeanors in Colorado I can't remember all of them now what they were but I did count 20 at one time they ended up in three jury trials in all three jury trials I won and uh they were all one within 45 minutes uh I like to say Colorado police were short on relevant back and Longhorn judicial avert abuse I consider myself I am not a Judicial virgin and I am a Judicial abuse Survivor uh I want to also add here that uh uh the Matthews family this is all over there are like 79 000 uh Google things related to me so it'll be near impossible for anybody to dig all of them but uh and the Matthews family was interviewed after the memorial service in August of 2019 and they said they were interviewed by police and they said that was the absolute first time they had ever heard the names of deep pink okay I think I do need being that you were I think you're going to have to probably give myself because I'm not familiar with them but I'm sure the listeners maybe maybe not aren't either how do misdemeanors end up in jury trials what were the I guess the flavor of these misdemeanors and can you give maybe like a time span in which they all occurred um uh one of the misdemeanors happened before Janelle Matthews disappeared before I talked to the uh FBI and that one was in regards to driving 60 some odd miles an hour in a 25 mile an hour Zone okay now back then you're talking 35 37 years ago back then uh you could have a jury trial for any ticket this was way back then okay and especially being a misdemeanor no misdemeanors you could have a jury trial for and then I feel like I would extra harassed by police after I had talked to the FBI regarding the general Matthew's case and my aunt accused me of phone harassments there were five charges to the family they were rolled into one jury trial and uh in my view my aunt and already in the police stories got bigger each time and they told them and I won that the last Colorado trial I had which was the last thing which had been like late 1985. okay uh a whole homosexual friend of mine Renee credit union he was the president of the credit union he accused me of harassing him and that went to a jury trial and again I won within 45 minutes okay uh being that you were acquitted or found not guilty and these charges have you ever been convicted of anything anything that you know that I'm perfectly willing to to accept you were innocent in all these things but is there anything that somebody charged against you that you were then did found guilty anything pay a fine community service maybe even jail time anything like that yeah in Idaho 1997. uh I was at a bank in Sun Valley Idaho and uh I had an upper hiatal hernia and I accidentally vomited in the bank there were two Bank employees behind the counter I was charged with two counts of disturbing the peace and uh it went to a jury trial and I was convicted on both of them in 2018 my Idaho attorney got those because I've never been charged with anything since God was dismissed okay so you were eventually even though you were convicted that those were I don't know expunged from your record or something I'm not a legal scholar either so those things that happened in Idaho in the 90s it was eventually expunged from your record then is that what you're saying yes okay all right thank you for being um uh transparent uh regarding that uh I The Listener should know I have not had a chance to look up Steve's record uh maybe some of you will do that um but I appreciate you bringing up all those things it does sound like a lot of things uh a lot of charges but nothing in which you had did any jail time or anything like that you know I yeah uh in the 1997 Idaho the disturbingless peace I spent 10 days in jail wow for disturbing the piece okay that's 10 days that surprises me that doesn't sound throwing up in a bank doesn't sound serious enough to spend time in jail but okay all right that's a little surprising to me but let's I know they're surprising to you between in December of 1996. JonBenet Ramsey made international news dying in her house in Boulder Colorado That Grew attention back to the Janelle Matthews case because they were both Colorado oh they're both young girls they were both Christmas time and it caused police to want to interview me again and I uh refused to talk to them and so I think that is what caused I I think the one of the two tellers was related to her husband was a police officer and so I think there was what I would call quid pro quo there okay okay thank you um I'm going to guess at least um at least a few people now listening to this interview are not familiar with Janelle Matthews the entire case and I I really do not want to go over through every fact in technical detail regarding that but let's just go over the general facts of course you've known about her disappearance whether you involved in it or not you've known about it for 35 years wood or just we'll get into the names and things in a little bit but what are the general facts of her disappearance Janelle Matthews on December 20th 1984 in the evening time was on TV with a in a choir group singing before uh at a uh for a for a nursing home and uh after that a man named Russell Ross and his daughter his daughter was the friend of Janelle also singing uh they took Janelle home when they got to her house nobody was home the garage door was halfway open they watched Janelle go into the house they were the last known people to speak and that 12 year olds you know Matthews her father came home roughly an hour later uh Janelle wasn't there he phone calls to people friends of Janelle's to see where she was uh approximately a half an hour later for step sister Jennifer who was 16 at the time came home from a basketball game that she had participated in and uh roughly half an hour after that Mr Matthews The Stepfather of Janelle's called his Pastor which was uh Sunnyview Church of the Nazarene pastor um I ever get his name now and the Pastor said you know if you can't find her nobody knows where she has called the police right now called the place and she was not seen again until her body was found uh July 23rd uh 18 miles south of her home which would have been in rural LaSalle Colorado a few days after that there was a memorial service she was her skeletal remains were buried it takes us I think right and we're going to talk we're surely going to talk about how our remains were discovered a little letter uh later but there were some once again I'm not an expert on this disappearance uh you've known about this for 35 years I think that over the course of my life I'm 49 I think I've heard about her disappearance but of course it's never been something that we've covered on this program but just in reading news accounts going to newspapers.com my understanding is that like you said that the garage door was open when she was dropped off the TV was on inside in addition there were Footprints it was like there was snow there were Footprints do you remember some of these things as being true at the time yeah yeah okay and once again being that you've been living with this for 35 years once again whether you were involved or not is it the understanding then that these Footprints for example were of a a man's footprint and not as woman's footprint has that ever been revealed to your knowledge uh I have no knowledge I I it hasn't been revealed to my knowledge okay and then I've also read that there is a proof that Janelle was dropped off because she was home and somebody called the house regarding her father's work or something is that true yes okay okay and it had something to do with he was a principal and um this was a person who wasn't going to be able to be there the next day or something like that and she was looking he was a teacher who wasn't going to be there the next day right okay so there is verification that she was in the house after she got dropped off maybe she was alone maybe somebody was there was with her but she was at home um and she was dropped off that's all I'm trying to it's there okay thank you um all right and then she disappears and like you said just this summer her remains were found and we will get into that in a little bit um when was the first time you you heard Janelle matthews's name hey the first time I heard her name was on December 26th 1984 six days after the fact my wife and I and our five-year-old son Mark were returning from uh tripping California back to Colorado and we would have probably been in southern Calif Colorado okay at the time at the time it was reported that a 13 year old girl was missing but she was actually 12. okay so you heard about this on your way back from this trip that you took and we'll get into that trip in a little bit but that's the first time the in your life and I don't know how I think I know how old you are now but I can't do the math how old you were at the time but that was the first time in Europe 33 thank you that was the first time in your life that you had ever heard Janelle matthews's name that's correct okay this is uh the part where we I I have to ask these questions and once again the listeners should understand that Steve was given an interview outline he's being treated like every other guest that has ever been on unfound I thought that was fair he knows a lot of these questions are going to be coming to him I wanted to make sure that he was prepared for this interview it is up to him how he wants to answer uh the questions but Steve this is probably uh where maybe a few of these more difficult questions start because I have to ask them as a journalist did you know Janelle did you know Janelle or her family at all at all not at all not okay did you ever have any interactions with them in Greeley Colorado by accident and I even have some examples in the outline through church through work softball league bowling anything ever family her parents uh her her I know she has I guess she has a sister anything not at all I mean not a I mean none okay and let me let me qualify that okay really with the town of roughly sixty thousand in 1984. okay so could I have passed one of the Matthews in a grocery store sure okay but but no there was no conscience knowing any of them and according to them until August of 2019 they had never heard of me so okay and we mutual thing okay thank you and I I think you said that your son your son that you had at the time that went on this trip he was quite a bit younger in Janelle so it wasn't like they went to school together or anything no okay he was in kindergarten he was homeschooled okay thank you and what about your wife where I I'm not saying we have to mention her name at all for the the context of this interview but would your wife have had any interactions once again to your knowledge I'm not saying you were following her every second of her life while you were married but to your knowledge did your wife ever have any interaction with anybody in the Matthews family would she have known where they lived anything once again to your knowledge to my knowledge he had my then wife had no interaction with anybody in America okay did you I I know I brought up the church already did you did your family and and their family go to the same church before I was married a year before the Matthew's family moved to Colorado when they were still in California I was a youth pastor at Sunnyview Church of the Nazarene obviously when you're a youth pastor and you're charged with date rape your you're not wanted in that church anymore you're out of this so I was out of there a year before they came and then they went to Sunnyview churches imagery okay um and this date rape had to do with what you've already talked about going back to 19 the 1970s with this woman who went seven with the woman who went to uh England got an abortion then came back and then accused you of Date Rape right okay and the church and we're going to talk about that in a bit but the church somehow found out about that we found out about the date right yes the date rape was on the front page of the newspaper everybody knew that okay okay all right I wanna we will uh certainly come back to that later so do you I have to ask do you think it then is a coincidence that you were working at this church then of course you were let go for these prior allegations of course you were not convicted of them and then they went to that church you believe that to be a coincidence yes okay is that is that I I have to ask I've never been to Greeley Colorado is that a big church big congregation I know it's not I guess it's the funk now but at the time Big Church small Church uh I'm guessing 300 people including children okay on a typical Sunday back then how many people do you think they got it at a service uh well they uh I would say Sunday mornings 300 uh I'd say Sunday night 115. pretty big a 80 on Wednesday night okay pretty big um okay thank you all right so you left the year before that and then they move in and they start going uh to the same church I'm guessing then being that you were let go you and your family were not welcome at that church anymore is that how that worked out or did you leave religion behind or what what if I can ask I I uh where we were living in 1984. I went to the Pentecostal Church across the street Faith Ministries okay all right thank you uh now I'm guessing now or at some point after she disappeared uh you found out where the Matthews live once again you're claiming you you never knew them didn't know anything about them once again that'll be for the listeners to decide but once you did find out where the Matthews live did you live close to them a mile away five miles away did you even know that until it became until it became of course public news uh I didn't know anything about them I didn't know that they existed or Janelle I didn't know Janelle existed or disappeared I didn't know her family uh after after the fact after it all came out in the news and all uh I figured which people who have gone on Google who were far more techy than I am it's roughly two miles away okay White House where I was living from where they lived okay and at the time uh you know late 1984 is there any reason that you would have when you did find out is there any reason that you would have ever been near the Matthews House for business was there a restaurant in that area anything that you might have even driven by their house during the time that you lived in Greeley Colorado no uh where where I lived on 10th Street I live like a half a mile outside of the uh Greely city limits on the county and I lived on a main drag where they lived with a residential neighborhood that was off of the beaten path there was no grocery stores there was no anything in that neighborhood I mean there's just nothing of any interest unless you live there you know okay so you had no uh no business in there do you have any like family friends your wife and you had another couple that even lived near the Matthews on the same street a block away two blocks away anything like that no okay all right thank you okay so let's talk about that day of December 20th 1984 from your perspective what did you uh we uh of course if anybody's looked into this case they know about this trip that you eventually took but what went on for you the day of December 20th 1984. uh I was uh watching for the mail because I was getting two credit cards in the mail from my dad and uh they did come and it was would have been around 1pm when I got those so from 1pm on anything that would not freeze uh my wife and I were packing in the car to be ready to go uh early four or five o'clock the next morning okay and was this a trip that you uh had prepared like for a couple weeks in advance a month in advance was this like maybe like a family I realized that you had been gone like over Christmas is this something you did every year as a family tradition or how would you explain this trip to the listeners it was not a not a usual thing uh I'm guessing you know I I I'm going back 35 years and I'm I'm guessing it was planned two weeks in advance but it might have been 11 days it might have been seven it might have been three weeks I don't know okay uh my my my paternal grandmother in my maternal grandfather were still living and both of them were in very bad health and my my parents hadn't spent much time with our little boy because he was born in Colorado and they lived in Big Bear Lake California and so my dad was willing to pay the credit card for us to get to and from Greeley to Big Bear Lake California and part of what he was saying is is the older folks my grandparents were this may very well be there last Christmas for those reasons we were going okay so maybe it was a couple weeks in advance it wasn't like I guess what I'm saying it wasn't a spur of the moment thing it wasn't like you decided on December 19th that you were going to leave on the 21st this was something that was planned it was planned okay thank you and um you once again I just have to ask this being that we know the approximate time that Janelle disappeared it's a very small window of an hour which you may not realize this but in my world a window of an hour is a very small time for a person to disappear I wish we had more cases like that because those ones are more likely to get solved but um for the hour that Janelle uh in that hour that she disappeared before she was dropped off before her father came home once again approximately an hour and that's what the Public Accounts state would your wife be able to account for you for that hour on December 20th 1984. she has been my ex-wife since 2001. and uh I talked to her several months ago about it and she she just doesn't remember that night at all okay what about you what do you remember do you remember being at home for that time I was I was at home there was no reason for me to be anyplace else okay all right so you're packing the car did you own one car two cars we had one car it was a wild 1984 Corolla Toyota Corolla two-door okay and you're packing that up preparing for this trip uh the next day okay and you believe please uh let me throw another thing in there I had at the time and it was gonna soon expire but I had a used car dealer license and this was the only car and I mean the only car I had left and so I had a dealer plate and I was going to be the very next day Crossing several state lines with a car on a dealer plate which is illegal which would put the car subject to confiscation I had a wife and a five-year-old child so when whether I was in Greeley or whether I was crossing state lines or coming back or whatever I wanted to watch my p's and q's I didn't want to do anything that we caught draw attention to me because I was doing right right and the last thing you want is to get your car seized while you're going on a trip with your wife and your son okay all right but just for December 20th um you never once again you were packing never left the house around the time that Janelle disappeared no I had no reason to I didn't know who Janelle was okay okay well I'm just asking you I realize it's been 35 years and we'll get into that a little bit later but what you're stating is that for that hour you were at home when Janelle disappeared from her house two miles away yeah okay thank you all right and then as you already said it was during your trip back back from this trip that you found out about this girl Janelle Matthews you heard it and that's when you first heard about her disappearance is that correct yes that was the first time I had knowledge that she existed and that she disappeared okay thank you I have to tell you I'm gonna be honest with you Stephen I'm always going to be honest with you this is where it gets starts in my opinion maybe the listeners it starts to get a little unusual and I've covered 150 disappearance cases but uh I'm just going to let you explain it for yourself so you get back on the way back you um hear about Janelle Matthews being missing and on the very next day December 27 1984 you have this conversation uh with your father-in-law please set it up where did it happen at your place at his place over the phone did he initiate it you know you're I think you're really going to have to go deep into this conversation that you have with father-in-law because I think it has kind of maybe once again whether you are responsible or not is sinus kind of set the tone for the last 35 years please say everything that you can about this this conversation you had with your father-in-law the mother of your wife okay I was back home at my house 6086 West 10th Street Greeley Colorado with my wife and five-year-old son we went to bed when we got home it was late it was 35 years ago I don't remember what time we got there but it was late we took the boy inside put him to bed we took the things that would freeze out of the car and them inside we were exhausted we went to bed we did not set the clock for the next morning so we just got up when we damn well felt like it and uh I was outside bringing making loads to come inside I'm messing and this is a guess I'm guessing it's 10 10 30 in the morning on the 27th which had been one exactly one week after the fact that the Matthew's girl had disappeared okay so I'm getting stuff out of the car through Cliff Sharp's driveway Cliff sharp gone I owned one acre Cliff sharp owned four and a half acres directly to the east of me towards Greeley and uh there was a back driveway he had roughly 30 35 on running cars and it looked like a wrecking yard and he had a shop where he worked on cars and there was through the other side of his house the far side of his house there was a long driveway that was kept open and kept cloud and people who knew me or because I was good friends with cliff and people who knew me and were familiar with my place could come in that way instead of coming in straight into my driveway and uh my father-in-law parked somewhere there it had been approximately two years now it might have been three years it might have been 18 months but approximately two years since I've seen my father-in-law wow and he came up and approached me outside the house by the Coke and I was surprised to see him my first thought my first thought was is you know before we weren't talking he really he is only grandchild was my son Mark and so it was Christmas time and so I was thinking that he was wanting to make amends this was just an assumption on my part okay it's just an assumption all right so I'm talking to him I'm listening to him but I'm also getting stuff out of the car and uh he had a uh item and infj personality do you know what that is I know the Briars brick test yes I am an INTP so I know exactly what that is yes Okay so keeping that in mind my father-in-law put his right hand on my left shoulder when I was reaching for stuff in the car he wasn't a family type of guy and so I stood up straight I looked at him he had what I would call a concerned look on his face and so I stared at him and you have to keep in mind that this is roughly 35 years ago so mm-hmm so it's it's recall okay he said that that a cop came to the cemetery and talk to him had a body that needed to be buried something about a casket putting it in the casket and that it would look bad for Steve meaning meaning you this cop said this to your father-in-law and this is not what he's telling you on the morning of December 27th yeah okay okay thank you now I I I'm standing there I don't know it was probably below freezing outside and I'm looking at him and to me this was like the weirdest conversation I'd ever had in my life I'm sure this was a lot totally and I mean totally out of characteristic character for my father-in-law and I mean totally out of character for him to say something like this my perspective the only way I see Life the only way I see any circumstances are through their the lenses of an infj that's what I am that's who I am and it was I can't describe in words look on his face but it seemed the best way I can describe it in human words is is Gravely concerned okay I was thrown off guard so I shot off my mouth with the first thing that came to my mind and I said are you wearing a place wire he said no look down turn around and walked away now that was the last time I had a conversation with him in my lifetime and died of natural causes roughly 50 years ago probably closer to 20 years ago now I I want to clearly State clearly State he didn't mention that the body was a man a woman he didn't mention Janelle's Mark Matthews okay in my head in my infj Ed I knew that last night on the radio it talked about a 13 year old girl missing okay yes and being somebody who is not a Judicial virgin somebody who is been through the system okay I am not a lawyer but I know that there is a I know that there is a criminal standard where you have direct knowledge but then there is also a lesser criminal standard that is also serious that you should have known okay so I didn't have no I didn't have knowledge of known I didn't ask questions of not to obtain known but I felt and again you know I'm a guy with a a uh I'm a guy with a uh uh GED for a high school diploma on the guy with a minor in criminal justice and I saw that as as a good indication of a good possibility of a should have known what I did is I got all of the stuff from the car let me let's just let me allow me to jump in I'm going to allow you continue just let me I just think that I need to uh fill in a few blanks or why is it that you hadn't talked to your father-in-law for two years if he is your if you're if uh he is your wife's father why was this why was that that you didn't talk to each other for two years if you can sum it up quickly he felt that my wife and I owed him money for uh when we first got married in 1979 we bought a trailer that had been burnt out and he supplied he paid for materials to fix it we felt we paid him back he felt that we didn't uh my wife had roughly three years before this had had some dental work done and my father-in-law's wife my mother my wife's stepmother okay paid for those dental bills and he was really pissed over that that caused the narkin okay So when you say that you hadn't had any conversation with him for two years is it then you and once again I understand you weren't following your wife for every second is it then you are understanding your belief that your wife also did not have any correspondence or communication with her father for those two years or what do you what do you think yes okay so she was like you you'd like you okay once again I I once again I understand that you weren't following every conversation where she went and everything but your belief is that for those two years that you didn't speak to him she didn't speak to him either correct okay and then out of nowhere he shows up he parks in this back lot or whatever it was and he shows up in your driveway telling you about the cops of asking to bury a body out of nowhere yeah okay okay you know and if I'm hearing you're saying that I'm thinking this is weird as whole get out it is but I I wasn't there I wasn't there so I'm just trying to I'm all I'm doing is trying to sum it up you know in a concise way and I'm just making sure that that's what you just told me okay and just so everybody's clear on this that's that's what I just told you okay that there's an old saying that truth is Stranger Than okay uh believe me I would not make this up just to make this stuff uh I don't know being that he is deceased I do not know how we could prove or disprove the if you're willing to tell the story I'm willing to listen I'm just trying to get the particulars of it because it is strange and I'm just trying to add a little context to it you know because really what is out there now is there's just this statement that he made to you well I want to to know when was the last time you talked to him what kind of relationship did he have you know those things I think it's important to put that statement in context and I'm glad you've done that thank you I do have to ask after this happened did you go inside and say you know what your father was just here and told me this crazy story did you and her talk about that conversation no I after I got the car unloaded I went next door to Cliff Sharp's place and I got a newspaper I got a newspaper from him he subscribed to the really Tribune the local paper I did not and it was one of you know over the last week I don't know exactly which day it was okay but I skimmed through there and the there uh as I remembered it there was nothing in the paper about a murder but it was all over the paper about this missing girl okay Janelle Matthew all right and just and I if I may just follow up on that and what you said just a few minutes ago is that you knew about Janelle Matthews being just um meeting missing at the time your father-in-law shows up the the next morning and somehow in like your subconscious or something although he didn't bring up her name he didn't even bring up if it was a man or a woman boy or girl you kind of had a suspicion that this is the person he was talking about Janelle Matthews even though he didn't say it yes I don't think you have to be a rocket science okay to do that okay okay thank you and so uh and maybe this is an important question too and I have this would he be a guy that somebody would go to and I don't mean illegally but was he in the business of digging Graves at the cemetery or something was that his job or what he was yes he uh his title was head groundskeeper uh depending on the time of year he had two or three guys under him under his directions they dug Graves uh they planted bodies they you know mowed the Lawns they went to carry the ground all right so if anybody once again legally people who die of natural causes if they were going to a particular cemetery and I've experienced this because my mother died not quite a year ago but these are the people who take care of a cemetery he would be one of those people who then would be out there I don't know with a backhoe or something digging hole that a body or casket would go in he would that was his job yes okay so so it would seem that then that would make sense I'm not saying he was involved in any illegal activity but if somebody needs a hole to be dug for a body that he knows what that is it's not like he's an accountant I guess that's what I'm saying he has the equipment he has the equipment to do something like that okay thank you all right under a legal term he would have the opportunity yeah okay thank you all right so you go over there you're putting kind of two and two together you go over you see the newspaper you see all this stuff about Janelle Matthews but I have to come back to this is there a reason that you didn't just go right inside and tell your wife or maybe she wasn't home but at least the next time you saw her is there a reason that you'd Insider it you're not going to believe you know your father showed up here today and this is what he told me that never happened that never happened and the reason it never happened was is my marriage was never good from the beginning and uh I had a five-year-old child I did not want to be in a situation to where I got a divorce uh I didn't want to be the first person and my immediate family to go through a divorce I didn't want to have a custody fight over my precious five-year-old son and I'm gonna just flat tell you the truth whether your listeners like it or not in my values in my value system I value the life of a living child over the possible murdered child or possible dead child and the possible dead child was not in my custody was not in my charge the five-year-old living child was in my custody was in my child and I will put then or today his interest over that of a possible missing dead person okay but still you never once again never not even once tenure I I can't add up all the math here now but I know you continued to be married after this at no time I guess she knows about it now being that it's all public news but why you two were married the discussion of him coming to your house that name never came up you never brought it up that discussion has never happened to this day okay it never happened in 1984 and every subsequent year to this day okay all right and is it you're then understanding once again I know that you you would not know your your wife's every move but is it then your understanding that your father-in-law never said anything to her about this conversation that he had with this cop that went over being that you never said anything to her is it possible maybe she had a conversation and never said anything to you that would be beyond my knowledge I seriously doubt it but I personally seriously doubt it okay right but that would be beyond my knowledge okay so you just didn't feel just to keep this I'm trying to keep this simple you just didn't feel tell her because you didn't feel like it or you didn't want to worry I know what you said about your child but I have to believe I mean there are a lot of pro-life and I'm not here to get into politics I understand what you're saying but I think leaving a lot of people who are pro-life they would have gone back inside with their wife and said even no matter if you were on shaky terms it is her father anyway that you would say you're not going to disbelieve did you know your father was here and here's what he told me it it I have to say you know let me let me answer that and it may not satisfy you and it may not it may not satisfy your listeners but it's just plain the truth okay one of the Carrick one of the characteristics of INFJs is is that they avoid they don't like conflict I did not want to be putting in a position to where dishes would be thrown things would be thrown at the house being cursed at and all of that kind of stuff I didn't want to go there do you do you really think the child she would have reacted I mean you didn't I mean uh you I mean I don't know your wife okay and it's not probably none of my business but I'm thinking if you are innocent I I think that she would be pretty pissed that her father would say something like that I'd like that to you she wouldn't be mad at you she might be mad at him maybe she'd go over to his house and throw dishes all right you could be right but I don't think so okay yeah the bottom line is can hit this from 100 different ways the bottom line is is from December 27 1984 through the recording today I've never had that conversation with my then wife okay and then I know that you said he died approximately 15 to 20 years ago did you ever have any conversation within the rest of his life no and how far I gotta ask how far away did he live in Greeley did he have a Greely address I mean this must have been something that was pretty bitter Steve he he lived approximately two miles away to the South in a mobile home park okay uh never had in 19 like a really late 1980s that we moved from there to um we went to her real mother's place when when she was pregnant with Carl the boy who was murdered later and that was late 1986 we went to South Texas and uh it's my understanding Harold and his wife that's my father-in-law and his wife they moved to either Iowa or Missouri somewhere around in there around that period of time okay and just maybe I need to just sum it up this way when he died did your I don't maybe I don't think maybe you were then married at that time do you know if your wife slash ex-wife went to his funeral when he died there was no funeral he he didn't want a funeral okay wanted to be cremated and he wanted his ashes okay all right and let's several Some People Want it in fact that's how my father wants it okay so that's not that's not an unusual request okay so you never talk to him again it sounds like there were bitter things going on before Janelle Matthews ever disappeared does as many things happen to family it sounds like it had to do with money and other things you didn't talk to your wife about it um you moved away they moved away and you never she didn't have any contact with her father you didn't have any contact UM with anybody um I do have to ask this being I realized you had problems with your father-in-law do you think he would be the type of guy to take part in a crime of disposing of a body for somebody who wanted it dispose does he sound like that type of guy no absolutely not would not do it okay glad not him okay so then once again the way you read this and you've had a lot of time to think about this 35 years do you think that he actually assisted in in disposing of the body no in a rural area uh of around LaSalle I mean if he wanted to dispose he had a backhoe he could double stacked in her in a casket he had a backhoe at the cemetery right I mean okay I guess what I'm saying is is when you look at it why would he risk going 18 miles away to put a body when he had it would be normal nobody would suspect him of doing anything digging with the back hole at this the largest cemetery really I think that's a very good point I think that's a very strong point Steve I guess I'm not trying to argue with you I'm just trying to give a different point of view I think the other thing though is if somebody who ever did Kill Janelle and if they were looking for somebody to dispose of her body those kinds of people only usually go to somebody that either is going to say yes and help them or is going to say no and keep their mouth shut you know what I mean because that's a fairy you know you're starting to introduce conspirators to a murder you know Loosely lips sink ships and that's why I have to ask you but in your opinion even though you had beefs with him you did not believe he would be the type of guy that would have done something like this whether she was found 18 miles away or even in his own Cemetery you do not believe that your father-in-law would do something like that absolutely not because I didn't get along but he would never have done anything like that okay all right um just plain out do you believe that this uh conversation that your father-in-law had with this person in law enforcement and once again we'll get into that eventually we've got a long way to go listeners um do you believe that this conversation actually took place when he came to you do you believe he was telling you the truth absolutely okay thank you all right so he tells you that and um I'm gonna guess that it was on your please can I interject something here please go ahead it's your interview you and your listeners never met Harold Hicks okay he was a guy who had just very few friends and he was very close to them he played cards with them he he didn't got to he was not somebody who would gossip he didn't talk about his business he didn't talk about anybody else's business this was somebody who characterized he was the man of the soil he grew up on a farm he this was a guy who just didn't FIB he didn't do anything he may have goofy eyes on certain things on politics and other things but he he wasn't somebody who would make up something like that okay thank you all right so uh I'm going to guess this weight on your mind because eventually um maybe a week later moving into early 1985 maybe even though the exact date you finally did go did you go to the Greeley police or maybe in the Sheriff's Office like I know the FBI comes in here at some point but at some point because of that conversation you did go to law enforcement uh tell you tell the listeners what brought you to do that and who you talked to and how that went can I tell you about on the 27th today my father-in-law talked to me me calling my attorney sure go ahead yes okay uh after I looked after I went to Cliff sharks after I looked skimmed over the newspaper uh I called my attorney his name was Don jenklow who's still living he's still practicing law in Colorado and he has commented to at least one reporter that was reported on the news uh favorably about me during it but um I called bosses I talked to his secretary whose name was Psy Cy and I said Psy this is Steve Panky I need to talk to Don right away and she said well Steve Johnson is real and uh he he won't be back until next week so I needed the till the following week and which if I remember right I looked it up on online calendar but I think it would have been I think it would have been the next week like the first day he would have been there which would have been uh January 3rd and uh or January I'm sorry January 2nd foreign I called him and got him on the phone and I said uh I had a very strange conversation regarding a body and I'm wondering if it's about the missing girl and I don't know what to do it got real quiet there was a long pause between me stop talking and him talking and he said what I would be concerned about would be obstruction of justice now I I owed him quite a bit of money at that time so I thanked him I got off the phone and uh I thought about it for an hour if you understand infj personality types we overthink everything about an hour later I called the Fort Collins because I didn't trust I didn't like the local police and I thought if a cop contacted my father-in-law it would probably be either somebody in the county or the city so I contacted the Fort Collins FBI and I was interested in avoiding avoiding a an obstruction of justice charge I call the FBI talked to an agent of lions and I said I want to talk to you uh I want to make a formal statement to you it may or may not have something to do with the missing girl here in Greeley but I want to avoid an obstruction of justice charge he said that he would call me back later and tell me where we'd meet the next day he called me back later and he said we need at the Greeley Police Department how did you feel about that being that you were trying to avoid them well I I had made it clear to him that I was willing to talk to him uh I had two feelings about the Greeley Police Department one is I was leery of going into the Gridley Police Department however on the other hand looking at it from a legal point of view if later on the Greely Police Department wanted to charge me with obstruction Justice for me coming to their Crop Shop and talking to an FBI agent there they had to know what the FBI agent was talking about so so on the once hand I was leery of going in there on the other hand I was thinking you know it would make it doubly hard to later charge me with obstruction of justice if you know I didn't have a crystal ball I would assume that this all is going to get solved later on or in the near future and if it came up that my father-in-law had talked to me you know and if I didn't say something I could get in trouble so so going there hit which it had a two purposes or I guess it had one purpose but it it would make it harder to charge me with obstruction of justice okay so you imagine the FBI agent this lines at the Greeley Police Department how to go oh it went it went remarkably well uh uh we met there he was very unlike the Greeley police he looked at me intently listened to me intently let me talk say whatever I wanted to say never gotten my face heard me out and when I got done talking he asked me he said to me uh because I had said to him that you know I had had this conversation and when I got done talking he again was looking at me as he was asking me questions but he asked me if if uh he asked me if the if the conversation dealt with anyone like Janelle's older friends and my answer was I didn't know Janelle I didn't know we're older friends so no it didn't have anything to do with that he asked me if the conversation dealt with any drug dealing in the neighborhood where Janelle lived and I said you know sir I don't know anything about that neighborhood I didn't know Janelle I didn't know the people in that neighborhood I don't know anything about that his next question and to the best of my 35 year memory the the last question was is did the conversation have to do with anything of anyone who didn't like Janelle I said I I just basically repeated again I didn't know the neighborhood I didn't know Janelle I didn't know the people you know I didn't know the people who liked her I didn't know the people who didn't like her you know I I didn't didn't know any of that and uh so he he said wait here and he went into the Hall now I haven't I I didn't remember this but I I haven't mentioned this on previous interviews because I just now remembered it and it's an accurate remembrance but there was I could hear an argument in the hall between him and somebody else who turned out to be the detective that came in because it was the same voice to detective it came in and talked to me later but about you know that they needed to talk to me too and lions kept saying you'll get your chance you'll get your chance at the time at the time I assumed at the time I assumed that that argument was just on show for my benefit because I had made it so clear to Lion because when I talked too kind of a good kind of a good kind of a good cop bad cop type of thing yeah okay all right so uh so Lions came back in the room and just said Steve you have to talk to the detective he went out the detective came in in the detective didn't start out tough or anything like that he was like what's your story and I just basically said you know I don't have a good relationship with the Greeley Police Department uh I don't want to talk to you and I talked to special agent lions [Music] you can talk to him and get what was get what I said and he let me go okay I mean it was okay let me if I could jump all right so that was the conversation how did the FBI agent react when you told him it was your father-in-law and your father-in-law was essentially implicating a police officer I guess in the Greeley Police Department maybe it was a police officer from somebody else but from somewhere else but the way you remember the conversation with your father-in-law is that he was asked by somebody in law enforcement to get rid of a body and it was going to look bad for you that is what you told the FBI agent yeah I I didn't go I didn't I don't think I said Harold Hicks or any of that I I I did give him the outline of it wait what I'm asking is you did in your statement to the FBI officer you did say that somebody told you that the police the police officer wanted somebody that wanted somebody you know to get rid of a body yeah okay and how did the FBI agent react to do you remember his reaction at all he was very poker face he was looking at me intently uh I think he uh I think Poker Face some set up he he wasn't giving any reaction away okay okay so just but uh I guess maybe you didn't use your father-in-law's name Harold Hicks but did you make it clear to the FBI agent this Lions guide that it was your father-in-law who said this to you I definitely said I had the conversation I and I said it was somebody I knew I uh I can't I can't say for sure either way okay can you well can you think of any reason why you wouldn't have mentioned your father-in-law no okay okay um because once again it doesn't seem like yeah you guys had a great relationship anyway if there was ever an opportunity to and it seems to me that once again I've never been interviewed by an FBI agent but it seems to me if you come forward with a story like that the FBI agent's gonna say you know what you're gonna have to give me a little more than that who is this person did that did the FBI agent ever ask you that once again never asked you that no but he did ask me the questions that I related to you regarding young people but I gotta say it it seems weird to me he wasn't interested in knowing who who told you this story I was pleasantly surprised at how easy it went now I forgot to tell you and this is true I had told them that I I had told agent Lions when I talked to him on the phone the day before you know that I talked to my attorney Don janklow and then I I started after conversation with him that I had talked to my attorney Don jankloe and if it gets tough in here I'm going to lawyer up mm-hmm now I don't know if that has any effect on his reactional but uh you and I are in total agreement I mean I was pleasantly surprised at how easy that Converse that whole thing went I I was I thought it was easy with both the uh FBI agent lions and I can't I don't remember the detective's name I I remember what he looked like but I don't remember his name but it was also easy with the detective no I I think I think you and your listeners could certainly understand when my father-in-law mentioned a cop and I had a bad relationship with the Greeley Police Department that I wasn't really wanting to talk to a really detected anything on there [Music] but once again during this conversation you never brought up it was your father-in-law who said this to you and you never mentioned his name and the FBI interned to once again the way you remember it the FBI never asked you that either I don't remember if I did or did I I that I don't remember okay okay again I've never been interviewed by the FBI but it would seem to me that that would make sense that that his name or his relation to you would would come up it seems like that would make sense I'm guessing I'm guessing it probably did but I okay I I was I wasn't there I'm just asking I'm just asking the things that I think make sense and then okay to be to be transparent I don't remember for sure okay um did you ever tell did did you once again I know you married for several years after this did your wife ever know that you talked to the FBI about Janelle Matthews disappearance at the time at all she did yeah okay absolutely I had told her on the day I talked to Lions on the phone that I was going to go in to talk to these to uh the FBI at the Gridley Police Department the next day I said that to her for I had two reasons for saying that to her if she had any knowledge of this it would give her an opportunity to bring it up to me and if I went into the Greeley police department and I was arrested for any reason she would know where I last went okay but did she know that you were going to talk to them about Janelle Matthews no okay she knew that I had been in trouble quite a bit and uh you know uh she she knew that I mean I guess I all I'm trying to determine is being that you didn't tell her that your father-in-law came over and mentioned about this body and everything the only reason you're going to the FBI is because of that conversation you wouldn't have been going to the FBI without that conversation right right okay so being that you did go to the FBI and you told her that you were going to the FBI she had to be thinking why are you going to talk to the FBI or the Greeley police department at all you would have to know her you would have to know our marriage it it would I if she had any knowledge I was giving her a chance to tell it to me by asking that question if she did have any knowledge which I don't think she did uh I I think when you say I just want to be specific any knowledge regarding Janelle matthews's disappearance right okay okay when when I told her I was going to be talking to the FBI the next day my feeling is it's where she was at at that point in our marriage at that point in her life was it was probably okay whatever I really don't want to know I think that would have been her attitude she didn't say that but I think that's kind of where she was at and then in this when would you say the reason is because in the years before Janelle disappeared you had had run-ins with the law and maybe your wife kind of knew the way it went anyway being these 20 misdemeanors Etc that you've already mentioned you said that very eloquently okay all right okay so you go in there you have these conversations the FBI um maybe this would help maybe uh clear some of this up to your knowledge once again I know you never talked to him again but I have to ask do you know if the Greeley Police Department or the FBI ever talked to your father-in-law about that conversation that he had with you about Janelle Matthews anything to your knowledge I have no knowledge either way all right so you don't know even if you did mention them you don't know if they actually follow followed up with him or not I have no idea okay thank you all right at any time while you and I have this in the notes gotta ask it at any time while you were talking to them that day in early 1985 do you think that they were eyeing you as a suspect in Janelle's disappearance yeah I think they thought I think uh I don't think I don't think the FBI did okay uh I think I think that really detective in the Greeley Police Department there's no doubt in my mind that the detective talked to other people in there after I was there regarding me okay and I think that they always saw me in the most sense fertilizer okay but uh all I'm out I know what's going on now but in when you went in there in early 1985 when you went in there and I know you were avoiding the Greeley to Police Department for reasons the misdemeanors and everything else um once again on that day though in 1985 did you walk away thinking anybody in that building suspected you of Janelle's disappearance did they give you did they give you any impression like we know you did it why don't you just anything like that no okay I I went out of there kind of uh legally High really happy I slept really good that night for the first time in a long time because by what the what the I wanted to believe what the FBI agent the questions he was asking me I was then thinking this was older kids on a younger kid and kids cracked quickly and especially if there was more than one involved and this would all be exposed so at that point when I left the Greeley Police Department I was thinking you know whatever my father-in-law said to me why he said it had nothing to do with anything because what FBI agent was talking to me about and he was and again I'm an infj he was in Kent in his questions to me and they were all dealing with older kids so they weren't dealing with anything other than that okay so being that the good okay so the FBI gave the impression that you know if she's missing it had something to do with teenagers or drugs or something so then how did you look at this did you think then looking back at what your father-in-law said to you do you think he was just pulling your chain being that what he said and what the FBI agent said were to totally different situations did you think that oh here goes his father-in-law of mine that's SOB trying to get me worried about nothing what'd you think I would perplexed I'll just put it that way I was I was perplexed regarding my father-in-law I I was relieved by what FBI agent said to me okay that's that's the way I put it okay I never thought I never thought my SOB father-in-law because I I just can't make this clear enough what he said to me was totally out of character for him he wasn't a vindictive person he wasn't somebody he had had disagreements with me and with my wife but he wasn't vindictive he wasn't doing anything to us he was no longer talking to her right over money he wasn't suing us he wasn't bad-mouthing us he wasn't spreading it to other family members he just wasn't talking to her that's all this wasn't a person I what he said to me was just out of character for him uh I wouldn't call I mean he wasn't Mother Teresa but if if somebody told you that Mother Teresa had said what my father-in-law said you would say what because it just wouldn't be her okay okay that may be a dumb example but but this wasn't a vindictive man this wasn't a man who wanted to get you well so once again I have to ask being that once once again between there's there was definitely a dichotomy between what the FBI said and he said once again did you think that he was losing his mind do you think that somebody was pulling a prank on him what'd you think if it was so I thought it was so out of his character then it had to have you know for a minute you had to think what the hell was going on here and did you ever come to a conclusion I did think what the hell's going on here I was perplexed I didn't know what to think beyond that okay all right let's okay so you go to the FBI you walk away you slip the best you have in a long time and how does the rest of the 1985 onward and go and I just have some questions here in the outline how did your goat life go after this did you think of Janelle's case often did you keep tabs on the progress did you ever talk you know of course we know you didn't talk to the your father-in-law we know you didn't talk to your wife about it but did you talk to anybody about Janelle Matthews case you know and how did that go for the next I mean let's try to you know tighten this up a little bit the next 10 15 years you know what went on regarding you and Janelle Matthews case you know in your relation to it well uh uh let me narrow it down to just through the time between 1985 and and we left Colorado okay I had two jury trials at least seven uh misdemeanor charges they're either dropped right one of them in court I felt I was being harassed by the plate uh I would look in the paper in 1985 I didn't have a cell phone no Internet no nothing it was just the local paper and the local it was this was a big deal in Greeley and so if there was any news on it it'd be in a local paper I really don't remember any news on it in the local paper I kept thinking to myself if this is kids this is kids on a kid you know why in the hell can't even the Greeley Police Department figure this out so that's what I was thinking uh late 1986 my wife was pregnant with our second child I felt you have to keep in mind I felt you know there's somebody that's killed a kid or there's somebody that's taken a kid you know you can assume by say 1986 late 1986 two years later when my wife was pregnant if the kid has never been heard from again the kids probably dead so there's somebody out there who's done this to kids so I didn't feel overly safe with my kids there uh there were times when with Mark our oldest I was probably overly cautious with them so when Angie was gonna have uh was pregnant with the second child I wanted to move away and we were thinking a warmer client climate so her mother her real mother was in South Texas so we went down there so I part of it was it's a stupid police can't figure out who actually did this we'll go down there and so you know with now a second child I didn't want to be have you know every year five misdemeanor charges against me and all that stuff so for a brighter reasons we went to South Texas um and then from there let me see went to I think Oklahoma and then uh Carl our our son Carl was born at uh city of faith uh Earl Roberts Hospital in Oklahoma and we wanted Christians to deliver our second child and being a Christian environment and then uh through our landlord we moved to Hot Springs Arkansas and then to uh we did a lot of moving those years then we moved to um Big Bear Lake California to be near my folks then we went to Portland Oregon and Oregon and I was gonna formally go to mortuary school there and that never worked out and when we were there that would have been like 1988. well I called I called I call Cliff sharp who was our former next door neighbor in Greeley and we just talked just talking stuff and then at some point in the conversation I brought up that uh girl that disappeared you know when we were living next door did they ever solve that and uh he said I don't believe so and so I thought you know I I guess over the years at first when I had the conversation with lions what lions his questions I wanted to believe I wanted to believe what that it was kids on kids and over the years when it wasn't solved it became more and more you know what the intensity of my father-in-laws looked in its face divides what he said and all became more and more important [Music] um in 1989 we moved to Idaho and I went to work for a mortuary and uh uh I joined this is Big Time Mormon country here and when they said Families Are Forever that was like really neat to me because I had never had a good marriage so I joined the Mormon church and when I got my priesthood um the when I was baptized got my priesthood the the bishop asked me if if I had uh anything that was on my chest bothering me anything I wanted to confess at all and I said I was bothered by this 12 year old girl who disappeared from Greeley Colorado and I had had this weird conversation [Music] um about it and I was just bothered that that it wasn't resolved and he talked to the state president who then contacted me and like it was like to him if you've got knowledge on a missing person we want to talk to this fellow Mormon who's the lieutenant Mark Lockwood with the uh Sun Valley Police Department so I talked to him about it and in our first conversation it was he was kind of like lions he just kind of sat there and heard me out and didn't have you know a whole lot to say about a week later he called me and wanted me to come in and he had this huge file you know it was probably I don't know I'm guessing eight ten inches thick and he said that it was copies of the Janelle Matthews file and he took he took a hard-line approach to me and he was he he was saying either one or two things happened either I'm crazy I want attention and I made up the whole thing about the conversation with you know the conversation about it and I just wanted attention or I really did it and I was uh brought up the conversation to interject myself in the case and I'm like whoa whoa what are you talking about here you know uh we I had a conversation I related that to the FBI and um so um if I could just jump in here for a second so when you talk to that bishop and you said you were being bothered by this girl Janelle Matthews who disappeared in Greeley Colorado in late 1984 you were not admitting to this bishop that you were bothered by it because you committed that crime no okay no I was bothered I was bothered by it because I had had a conversation that happened in the time period that I've already related sure of course well yeah right that's what bothered me okay so it you know that's what bothered me okay and do you do you remember once again I know you don't specifically remember when you talked to the FBI agent but when you talk to the bishop do you think then and I know this is some years later maybe five six years later do you think that you mentioned to this bishop or even to this uh police officer in in Idaho that it was your father-in-law who relayed this story to you did he did his name or his title come up then I probably said a relative okay all right so you talked to the bishop you talked to this cop uh he either thinks you're crazy or you're guilty and uh uh where did you go from there I don't I don't want to break this down to every month but just over the next few years I mean did anybody follow up with you did you look at yourself as did Greely contact you thinking you were a suspect or anything like that or what no no really really never contacted me uh I was contacted by two FBI agents showed up at my door and like I'm guessing early January 19 97. and they were they were on the uh Janelle or JonBenet Ramsey saying they were doing it and they said that that I had talked to an FBI agent regarding Janelle Matthews in 1984 and I said that's correct and they wanted to talk to me about it and I basically told them that I would only talk to them with an attorney because I'd had a conversation with uh Lieutenant Mark Lockwood with the Sun Valley Police Department and he was calling me either crazy wanting attention or I did it and if that's the way some of the law enforcement saw it the only way I'd talk with is with an attorney is I remember they each left the FBI guys each left me their cards I did not keep their cards I don't remember their names because it was just at the front door then I was stopped by Mark Lockwood several times like driving down the road because I owned I owned a property management business and you know Ketchum Sun Valley area and with like he didn't write me a ticket but he'd want to talk to me about the case uh I would tell him only in front of an attorney and that would be the end of that uh then uh uh I went through my wife filed for divorce in 2001. I moved to Shoshone and uh in Shoshone uh I wrote by by then I had a computer and by then I was on the internet and I wrote um maybe a half a dozen between 2010 and 2014. letters to the Weld County District Attorney's Office inquiring about the case because I wondered uh and uh then uh my last maybe one or two letters were returned unopened so I thought screw them if they don't want to hear from me why should I you know right I was interested in the case so from 2014 until April April 8 19 or 20 from 2014 to April eight uh 2019 when detective cash called my sister-in-law that was there was like a five-year Gap in there that there was no contact let me just go back to one of those two FBI agents showed up at your uh house wherever you were living they were asking about JonBenet Ramsey are we then to infer that you were viewed as a person of interest maybe in her murder is that why they were there yes no no no no no no they had said they had said well I don't I don't I don't know that but I had assumed by what they said is that they knew that I had had I talked to an agent about Janelle Matthews some years before and it was a similar thing a similar time period you know and they were I took it they were looking for connections like maybe whoever did General Matthews might have done JonBenet Ramsey okay I I don't know that okay okay but that's kind of what I thought okay and once again though because of situation you I know how this is viewed but I'm going to say it anyway you lawyered up when they started answer questions you said I'm only going to answer if my lawyer's here yes okay and it was because of Prior the prior problem you had even in of course we know about the things in Greeley but even there in Sun Valley Idaho you had an issue with a cop there who was trying to pin Janelle Matthews once again at the time disappearance on you yes okay all right okay um let's move up uh to the present to this year so you got divorced in 2001 you got remarried at some point never did oh you never got remarried I apologize okay so now we go up to this year and April 8th you've already talked about it April 8th 2019 what happened on that day I know you've already talked but let's get a little bit more of the details what happened I got a call from my brother in Arizona and he said a really Detective Greeley Colorado detective named Robert cash had called his house talked to his wife my sister-in-law and said that he had this case of this missing Janelle Matthews and Steve panky's name is all over it it seems crazy and that my sister-in-law said what and she handed the phone to my brother the detective casted the same thing to my brother my brother said Steve isn't crazy he doesn't have mental problems he's definitely eccentric he is an eccentric person but he's not crazy and my brother is an ex San Bernardino deputy sheriff and um so then my brother called me related the conversation I looked up on the website the Greeley Police Department I called there I asked for detective cash uh I got his voicemail I left a voicemail for him stating that please don't contact my relatives uh in 1946 my uncle was a homosexual killed and and in place custody and uh my family has been deeply divided over the years of my homosexual past and please don't contact my relatives I kind of left it at that about an hour later I got a call from a different phone number in Greeley and then it hung up right after I answered it I called that number back and the young lady answered Weld County District Attorney's office will county is this is the Greeley is the feet County city in Will County and then I hung up on her then a couple minutes later I got a call back from that same district attorney's number and it was detective cash I could tell that I was on speakerphone I could tell that uh uh you know I could kind of hear like papers being passed and like other people were in the room and he wanted to talk to me about the Janelle Matthews case uh he said that you know I knew Russ Ross very well he wanted to talk to me about restaurants I knew because I was in a youth pastor at Sunnyview Church of the Nazarene he wanted me to talk to me about them he over and over and over said you are not a suspect you're not a person of interest you know I'm not going to read you you're right I just want to talk to you I want to come there to Twin Falls Idaho and talk to you and I said well the only way you're going to talk to me is my attorney present and uh he said that's fine when you talk to me and I said I will do whatever my attorney says it's paying attorney you might as well take the advice though I will do whatever my attorney says and I you know I want to in this conversation I talk to he asked me what did you say to FBI agent Alliance and I said talk to FBI agent Alliance and he asked me a few more questions I don't remember exactly what they were he again asked me if uh he again was dating you know you're not you're not a suspect you're not a person of interest I'm not going to read you right talk to you come to Twin Falls and talk to you in person and uh he he again asked me for the second time what did you specifically say to the fbias and lion you know you want to know what I should the lines ass lines you guys called me a liar in the past you don't charge me with date rates and charged me at 20 misdemeanors you're scary people I don't want to talk to you and then he said before I let you go uh he said you know if if somebody chopped up Janelle's body but they didn't but they didn't kill her uh it's past the statute of limitations and uh I wouldn't like it but there's nothing that could be done there could be no criminally chart criminal charges filed and I said I flat I'm not gonna talk to you anymore I didn't do anything of your sort and I hung up the phone then uh and then so just to be clear I mean just to be clear out of nowhere they call you on April 8th of this year 2019 but we know that her body wasn't discovered until a couple months later yes that's interesting okay all right so you have this conversation on April 8th what happens next uh the same day he caught uh cash called my attorney in Twin Falls Idaho and uh then they started an email playing back and forth and uh my attorney wanted some ground rules and one of those ground rules is is that there would be uh because there had been bad blood in the past uh there would be two things one I'd be given total immunity number two uh I couldn't be charged with uh a line to police like if if what I said didn't match with what I said 35 years ago or something like that you know okay because of memory and all of that stuff okay and uh then uh uh if uh it was back and forth and in the end cash never there was no there was no conversation there there was no there was no agreement done so uh my attorney said you know Steve has told you uh Steve has told our law enforcement all he knows so therefore there's there's no reason to talk to him therefore he will not be available to you then my attorney got a call from uh Keith Rorke Who is the Will County district attorney everybody's seen him on TV because of the Chris Watts case which made the internet you know yes prior to that so uh Keith Ward called my attorney and he said rather abruptly to my attorney anybody who needs a deal had involvement and there will be no deals and my attorney said well then we've got nothing to talk about and put the phone down and so that was I don't know that was I I think that was I think that was in Late July after her body was found I I think that's when that was okay well let's keep this let's keep this timeline straight then being that that conversation happened after she was found remember you first so my once again the way I look at it there's not a lot of going on nobody's talking to you about Janelle's case at all of course maybe you have a run-in you know back in 1990 the FBI shows up in 1997 but it's about JonBenet Ramsey not necessarily about Janelle Matthews on and on and on and then out of nowhere in April they're trying to reach you and then coincidentally conveniently I don't know what to call it a couple months later her body is found outside of Greeley Colorado do you remember where you were when you found out that her remains had been found I was at home I did a uh like a weekly internet first from the case because I had been contacted by detective cash you know and uh all of a sudden there's this stuff that her body would found and I guess my first I was here at home I guessed my reaction was what the f you know I mean it was a surprise and uh uh so and I was greatly relieved at the area that she was found in because that would obviously have nothing to do with me and all uh my personal View and you know I can't prove this but my personal view is I think the Greeley police know where her body was all along or most of the 35 years if not all the 35 years and I think that they knew that there was a gas and oil thing that was there and there was digging around there I don't think they knew which day but I think they knew certainly later her body was going to be found that's a pretty serious allegation Steve I'm not you know uh in my experience uh 10 of the cases an unfound is covered police officers are involved uh but that is a serious allegation but I want to come back to that 10 of The Disappearance that I cover up at least 10 percent of police officer is seen as a suspect in the disappearances I've covered from my program that's 150 cases so at least 15 of them 15. that that blows meals that's true that's true I'm not making that up I could almost name them right off the top of my head I'm I'm sure you're telling the truth I knew that at times police officers would involved but that's a much higher percentage than I would have thought of well that's I I could give you the list after we're done but that's true but uh so but even what you're saying is a very serious allegation that and but I do want to come back to that because the listeners are going to find out you do have some other reasons we have to put that in context but yes you you said that um I think earlier in this conversation that you said she was found 18 miles maybe away from where you lived at the time something like that okay and you said obviously you would have no connection to that area well none of us know you so please explain this area to the listeners and why you would have no connection to that area well uh and I guess we have to think about it in 1984 terms not 2019 terms I guess right absolutely all right there's really there's Greeley Colorado right south of Greeley is a little or a smaller City called Evans that I'm guessing was a population of 8 000 people at the time then south of there is LaSalle which was a very rural town I'm guessing three to five thousand population in 84 that's arbitrary don't do that but somewhere around there and they're saying east of there now east of there would have just been like Farm glass land vacant land in 1984 there was just nothing there uh I guess there were I mean I'm assuming there were dirt roads out there and all of that stuff but uh it was just nothing unless you work in agriculture I don't think you would have any reason to be out there all right so you're stating for the record that you've never been to that area uh back at that time you had no reason to be in that area you were not familiar with that area nothing correct all of the above okay all right so whether the police knew she was there or not but somehow they're digging a pipe out there they're putting in some pipe or something like that and I've even done some satellite views to see what was going on out there and they run across her remains and you find out about it and I have to ask you this when her remains were found um did you automatically think back to that your father-in-law's conversation from 1984 even though we now know that you know he dug real grays for a living not ones out in the middle of nowhere to cover up bodies but did you think of that conversation absolutely I don't think I don't think there's any way I wouldn't have thought of that conversation okay all right and is it then your interpretation I know what the public reports have said but maybe you know maybe some more inside information than the rest of us do um was Janelle buried and do you happen to know how deep she was buried was it a foot was it 10 feet do you know have you ever heard anything about that I don't know any of that okay so this happens then after that is when you had this uh your I guess your attorney had an another conversation in which he said no we're not going to be taking part uh in the discussion you said that that happened sometime in July 2019 which is of course only a few months ago uh where did everything progress from there because they knew at some point you got served with a search warrant and they I guess they came up to Idaho and yeah you know how did that all happen on uh on August 15th uh I lived in the I on August 15th detective cash and Detective prel from the Greeley Police Department showed up unannounced that my door I live in a condo association that's got 28 units in it and my condo is in a building with eight units and there's a front door you can't get inside you have to either know the code or you pick up the phone and you talk to the unit to get buzzed in and uh about 10 30 in the morning on uh August 15th I was watching a Christian uh he was actually American Center for Law and Justice in uh news program on the internet and my uh phone buzzes so I answer it and this voice says Steve Panky and I said yes and he says uh Detective cash it said are you at my front door and he said yes I have to oh I said who all is with you and he said detective Pearl from the Greeley Police Department and I said what do you want and he said uh he says you're not a suspect you're not a person of interest I'm not going to read your rights I just want to talk to you and a video interview talking to you and I said well you were told by my attorney that I wouldn't be talking to you so you need to call my attorney and he said well would you go to your attorney's office and talk to us there now and I said well I'm sure he's busy and so um so I said I said I'll call my attorney so I got off I hung up that phone got on my cell phone got my attorney on the phone told him and he said tell him to contact me and not talk to you so I said will you tell them that so I went downstairs out the front door and uh they were in the courtyard area and uh I said I handed the phone to cash and cash tells my attorney he says what losses I can't talk to whoever I want to talk to and any hints have fun back to me and then uh detective prell who's standing there now cash is looking at me like intently like he's checking me out like he's studying me and Prill gets right in my face says he needs to talk to me and it's kind of like a nose to nose um good cop bad cop like this intimidating kind of thing and I said you know I backed up away from him and I said you know please don't contact me please don't contact my relatives and I talked again about my uncle who died in police custody he's homosexual in 19. 46 in that you know my past my family I've gone to Great Lengths to get right with my family and I you know just don't contact my family um he uh then he said uh he then cashed that in my face again and he was spitting as he was talking but he was like really making his words pronounced things we need to talk to you right now and uh it was like I don't know I would like a ballroom brawler okay and so I backed away and I said you know I'm not talking to you and turned around and punching the code walked into the building went upstairs to my condo and uh then my attorney called and I met with him later that day and he told me that right after the police were at my place they went to his office made a theme in the secretary talking really loud demanding to talk to him right away he came into the lobby of his office my turning in uh you know uh they were demanding that that I have uh that he have me come to the office right then and all that stuff and my attorney threatened to call the police to get him out of there and they left the very next day they went to Shoshone which is 30 miles north of here and uh uh uh apparently they called my ex-wife had her come to my son's house my son Mark's house was the five-year-old back in 1984 and I talked to and they talked they talked to uh according to my ex-wife she said you know we've been we've been divorced since 2001. you know and apparently she says that she told the police she didn't remember December 20 yes 1984 she didn't remember what she was doing 35 years ago 40 years ago 20 years ago and she said her conversation was short my son and you have to keep in mind my son is a very quiet person and uh he's not much of a talker he's totally opposite for me but my son uh told me that he says perel said to him that that somebody that was at my youngest son Carl's Memorial said that I stood at the at some point in the service I stood over the ashes of my son Carl and said I hope this didn't happen because of Janelle Matthews well my son Mark knew that knew that was not true and my my son said something like that's [ __ ] was kind of like his real quick reaction and then he said to Pearl I don't want to talk to you anymore and then apparently both cash and pearl said to my ex-wife we've got an appointment with somebody to talk to them about Stephen and they didn't say who it was and then they left there well nine days later my daughter-in-law Esther died of breast cancer she's been fighting it for years but she died nine days later and uh you know uh she's originally from Peru and you know my family has gone through the loss of so I mean I feel compassion and I feel bad for like my son Mark who you know nine days before his wife nines of breast cancer these cops come up with this totally ridiculous thing that happened at his brother's Memorial so that it's just a blatant line so the next thing that happened to kind of keep moving along uh the very next thing that happened was you saw or okay that was on Friday then on April the 16th on I thought being an infj I think of all possibilities and what to do what not to do and all kinds of things and I was thinking about this case over the weekend so I just decided on Monday morning I would call them really or the Twin Falls Police where I live and uh volunteer to give my DNA and then the really police or the Twin Falls Police could give it to the Greeley police because if they're if they're thinking that I was on December 20th 1984 that I was at the Matthew's house I I know for a fact because I'm a podcast Junkie I listen to you regularly uh uh I'm a podcast junkie I know that in the last 18 months there's been some real strugged uh extraordinary advances in technology yes yes that on crime scene that on Old crime scenes where they didn't find DNA before in evidence they're finding it now and so I thought I thought kind of like to hit the ball out of the ballpark to have like to knock out blow to eliminate Greeley police talking to me if I just volunteered to give my damn DNA then they could compare it against whatever they have at the house they could compare it against as I know from skeleton or remains you can get in and please you can get like well you can get the the skull to remain you know but you can there is there is possibility even with the skeletal remains to get DNA in certain cases I mean I know it's really it can be done so so if they add DNA they could at least eliminate me that was my thinking well the the lady that I talked to the dispatcher at the at the Twin Falls Police Department had never had a request like that before so she said she'd have somebody get back to me so about an hour later I got a call from John detective John dobner the Sheriff's Office who used to be the Shoshone police chief and I was one of the people who helped get him fired from insurance to some police department so there was some bad blood between he and I but now he's detective with the Twin Falls County Sheriff's Office anyway he called me and he said it's my understanding he said that he had been the contact person here for the early police but when they were here and he said he said it's my understanding you want to voluntarily give your DNA and I said yes and just from my past relationship with Police Department I said are you recording this conversation he said yeah so I said yes well our most old cases sold these days by DNA and of course he said yes and I said well there you go I'll give you my damn DNA you give it to the Greeley Police Department uh they eliminate me and I think I said something to the effect of this will save the Colorado taxpayers this will say Idaho taxpayers a lot of money if I just do this so I can't I made an appointment to come down an hour later went to the Sheriff's Office uh detective dopner and another detective took me into a interrogation room detective domner put two swabs on and get the left side of the cheek inside my mouth the right side of the cheek inside my mouth and put them in a bag and he said thank you very much you're free to go I left in my mind I was thinking that would be the end of it I would never hear from the River Police Department again they would go on for other things you have to keep in mind our 25th uh Sunday uh August 25th my daughter-in-law died there was a funeral memorial service plans there was all kinds of things going on there August 25th we were focused on my son mark because we had another tragedy in my family uh now fast forward to September 4th it's roughly 10 30 in the morning I get a call from dobner and he says uh Steve uh when I took your DNA there was some paperwork I should have done and uh so I need you to come down right away or I'm sorry no this was 9 30 A.M and he says I need you to be down here by 10 o'clock and well I hadn't shave showered I haven't I wasn't really dressed and so I said what's this about do you have an ulterior motive because I was being an infj I was listening to his voice and kind of I don't know reading between the lines and and he said no and so I said well I'll shave shower and get dressed and I'll be there between 10 30 and 11. so I heard him kind of like talk to somebody in the background and then he says yes and so I asked again if if he had an ulterior motive and his voice kind of went up again and so you know I didn't know what it was but I thought that there was more to it than just paperwork so I agreed to be there between 10 30 and 11. uh I shaved showered and on my way there I called on my cell phone my turning told them what doctor had said he says don't go to dominar's office come to my office and if Governor has paperwork to do he can come here bring the paperwork here and he can do it in front of me so I pull into my attorney's office and to uh SUVs pull in right behind me I get out of my driver's door and I'm guessing a dozen SWAT guys wow officers and full SWAT get out of these two vehicles and I just stand there and I look at them because I mean if they wanted to catch me off guard and shock and awe they succeeded so I'm standing there and one of them says to me do you have any guns on you and I said no he said can I search you said sure I turned around leaned against her vehicle he found nothing and another one of them so I gave him my cell phone he took the case on and he said we're confiscating your your cell phone they hand me two pieces of paper one of them is titled A a warrant for warrant of detention and the only thing in the warrant of detention is it's its states probable cause exist to believe that a felony to with ice Idaho code 184502 kidnapping Idaho code 18. 4003 hermistine was committed by the defendant Stephen Dana Pinky and anyway uh it names Janelle Matthews is the reported victim and and the only thing it asks or the only thing that it requires is my cell phone on my person be given to them so that's the only thing that the warranted detention is about so so they had that the other the search warrant you've got in exhibit uh you've got uh all the things that they asked for and took from inside my place they asked for codes keys to get in uh or they were going to break down the door I gave the codes to get in and uh they took and they had my I uh they had my I have two cars they're both 2019 I bought them both in January 229 Subarus I was driving the Forester it's got like 2 000 miles on it it's never been out of the Twin Falls area and that's what I drove to my attorney's office they told that put in our car hauler and towed it to the Sheriff's impound they when they gave me the thing of like what they took from it they didn't take anything from it there was nothing in it and they put this police evidence tape all over it that my son and I had spent two hours with a heat gun to get it off of there and they searched they searched my condo took all the stuff and exhibit a the uh searched uh everybody's got a storage locker where I keep my bicycles and stuff like that in tools they didn't take anything from that because there was nothing they found interesting there they searched my 2019 Subaru Legacy which is 4 000 miles and I've never been to Colorado never been it's only been to California and back and uh they didn't take anything from that and uh today is exactly 40 days since they took all of this stuff and obviously they have they didn't find anything otherwise I'd be in jail right and could you just remind the listeners what date did this happen on by the way anybody who is listening to this we are doing this interview on October 14 2019 what day was it that all this happened again please September 4th 2019. okay thank you okay all right so what did your liar have to say I mean this is all happening in his parking lot did he come out did you know I mean so they didn't so they they didn't take you into custody they just took everything and just left you there or how did that all happen they just took everything and left me there wow uh okay my son took a day off of work to come down and get me and my attorney advised me to be with my son all day long and until until the police contacted him that they had cleared my house to stay completely away from where I live until the police had left and uh so my son and I we went to a t and I got a new cell phone and um I have I actually have three different phones because I'm an investor and I do other things and so uh buying a new laptop uh buying a new printer buying three new cell phones so I've got right at ten thousand dollars in immediate out of pocket besides attorney fees and they found nothing okay well that was a lot I know that listeners were swimming was that still listening I've been listening to every word I want to show you that Steve even though you're just talking about a lot of things that were in the outline so I was more than happy to just let you talk about all of that um I do have to ask you this at any point in the last 35 years and we're going to get into what we call exhibit B very here very shortly at any point over the last 35 years has anybody in Lost for law enforcement ever asked you to take a lie detector test all right no they've never asked you I don't think so okay and I'm guessing you've never taken one I've never taken one because they uh the affidavit by detective dobner is what the both the the warrant of detention and the search warrant are based on that's what they're basing right the accusation of kidnapping and murder and that is failed by law that is failed now they do have discretion if they wanted to to release that to me and my attorney which they have not done and you know there's no point in me taking a lie detector test without knowing what's in that search warrant because that's that's the key of whatever they supposedly have to well I guess I mean I have to ask because in in not all but many of the disappearances that you know I cover suspects are given lie detector tests most of the time they choose to take them we hear a lot of a lot about people failing them we are a lot of people about a lot of people passing them we hear a lot about people taking them they're not getting the results so I have to feel that in this case this is why I have to ask you that is that they've never asked you to take one and you've never fallen tiered to take one I have volunteered to take corn wanting to get from them what they have to that interests me well I guess what I'm saying is obviously you're saying that you're innocence I'm get I'm asking you um why have you never said you know what I didn't do this you hooked me up to any polygraph test whatever you want to do um and you ask me any questions you want to ask me about Janelle Matthews I'm going to pass this test and then we can just forget about all this that's what I'm I guess that's what I'm asking well I I'm willing to do that in my mind the DNA was a bigger yes sir so up or down then and I know from podcasts that there's been huge advances in DNA sure that's on Old cases they have found DNA that they didn't know it was on there before so I uh I know that some people take polygraph is almost like it's all right and I'm not one of those people in the listening and I know I know and the listeners know I am I am they're just a tool like anything else they're they're not there's a reason they're not used in course in courts yada yada yada but what I guess I'm saying is that um the natural inclination I think from the public is that if somebody's innocent then that is one more way on top of DNA to just show that you know what you can ask me any questions you can hook me up to this machine that is supposedly is supposed to be so good and you're going to see that I'm going to pass this test and then that'll be that that's why I'm asking okay I'm willing to do that in my mind in my mind everybody agrees with DNA if your DNA is where it ain't supposed to be you're going down sure and so so all right so that's that's uh I guess that's that's truly that's surely true but DNA only works if there's actually DNA on the body and if there's no DNA anybody then you giving them DNA doesn't help anything sure okay if I were in her house December 20th 1984 which I wasn't and if I know I wasn't there then I know my DNA wasn't there and no matter how far DNA is is expanded or Advanced and so I was giving my DNA oh anyway okay okay all right but just just on the record you've never taken a lie detector test ever for anything right okay thank you all right okay and uh before we get into exhibit B what you call exhibit B which is a PDF file that you sent me um not so long ago um do you believe in general that the reason that of course they've served this warrant you know they took your cards exactly yada yada yada all traces back to the conversation you had with uh FBI agent lions in early 1985. absolutely yes okay all right let's get to exhibit B um and this is where I think listeners what you've heard to this point is is a guy who is professing his innocence once again that's uh up to you to determine whether you think he's being truthful or not I'm just here to answer the questions and you know clear anything up that I think that might be unclear or just maybe probe things a little farther but you should know that Steve does have his beliefs regarding Janelle's uh disappearance he isn't just a guy who is claiming he is innocent he actually um I guess believes you know you know in what actually did happen to her he's not just saying that he didn't do it he actually has a theory on what did happen to her and it was a a PDF file that he sent to me um and in some emails of course that we had back and forth as well but there was one in particular called the exhibit B a PDF file where he drew up his own uh idea of what went on and where I want to start with this uh Steve is when did you find out who was the person that dropped Janelle off at her house that night when did you find that out it would have either been through the paper or TV it would have been here later on the day that my father-in-law came you know either that evening the next day or in the next few days okay so so you knew I don't remember that okay there was no exact moment that I knew that okay because I'm going to because I looked into this now you are saying that you found out and he's a name of a guy you've already mentioned his name is Russell Ross you are saying that somehow somehow within a week to two weeks after she disappeared you somehow found out that it was Russell Ross who dropped off and he was with uh one of his children who dropped off Janelle at her home that night somehow you found this out I found it out through either radio TV or newspaper okay between December 27th and the next few days it wasn't long okay would you be surprised to know and I'm a pretty good Searcher as are my assistants would you be surprised to know that I could not find anywhere on the internet not Googling it not going to websleuths.com Nowhere not on newspapers.com to articles going back to that time around when she disappeared where his name comes up as the person who dropped off Janelle that day would that surprise you because I've done it I a couple hours trying to find his name now please did you hear local news broadcast from no I don't think there's anything on there on the internet regarding that but I did look up newspapers and I did look up his name just in general you know in relation to Janelle Matthews case and it comes up nowhere and now I will admit that in there are many articles about in fact I even found a discrepancy I found something that very early on there is an article in the local newspaper in Colorado that said that it was this girl's mother or this child's mother and the child who dropped off Janelle and then in a later article several years later in a in a you know coverage of Janelle's disappearance maybe 13 years later that is then changed to the father and the child dropping off Janelle but their names are never mentioned in any of those articles there is no doubt in my mind if you pulled up if it's humanly possible uh TV local TV local uh reporting on that that his name was that he and his daughter I believe his daughter's name is Dina Deanna or something like that okay if they dropped her off okay it was also talked about people at my church across the street we're talking about if people know people who know people no there's there's nothing mysterious about mine okay all right that's probably going to be okay thank you for that and I'm sure there's some people are going to hear that and they're probably going to start looking for themselves and maybe and I do have listeners in Colorado that may be able to have access to uh local local news tapes and I'm sure you know notes 35 years ago but they do archive stuff like that so that would be interesting but once again I'm telling you the truth I couldn't I couldn't find anything like that but maybe I missed something okay so and like I said even on the reporting of it over the years there have been discrepancies because once again it said the mother and then at some point they changed it to the father now you and Russell Ross have a history very as quickly as you can with while being accurate at the same time um you and E had a history going back to the late 70s you two happen to work together please explain that and why you two had a problem with each other uh I went to work for uh as a delivery truck driver about 1978. and I worked there through 1980 when I was fired by Russ uh uh he uh I tried to start a union at Greeley 7UP Terry Phillips Denver 7 Up and they sent in restaurants as the new manager kind of the Union Buster uh and uh officer John Gates who is now the mayor his parents owned really seven up before I worked there but they still owned the building Vic really 7Up was in when I was working there they uh Russ beat me up and then two other men over the union deal Russ also went to Sunnyview Church of the Nazarene where the Matthews were and uh so uh detect all right then Greeley police officer uh Johnny Gates had gone to seven up saying that I had been accused of Date Rape it goes back to that date rape some from 1977. yeah all right and they ended up getting you fired in what year were you fired from that job there was uh when when I was beat up there was uh the kingsters union did an in a uh a federal inner lb uh the team lawsuit against Russ Ross in 791 uh I was fired and I wanted twenty thousand dollars okay so that was a considerable lawsuit that you won against him I guess against the company or however it was determined determined right okay all right so there was a there was a beef between you two there was a beef okay and so but you got fired In 1980 this lawsuit went on for and but did you personally run into Russell Ross anywhere around Greeley Colorado during that time between you getting fired and The Disappearance in 1984. did you ever happen to run in him no never okay okay all right so then being that you had these problems with him and everything else and then once again not long after Janelle disappeared somehow you found out that it just coincidentally happened to be your old supervisor Russ Ross who dropped her off that night at that point and once again you being innocent her going missing at that point did you think that Russ Ross could have done something to Janelle Matthews I doubted it now he he had special knowledge obviously that she was home alone and he had knowledge of that but in my opinion of Russ Ross I I I I think that if Russ Frost came across a man who did this to Janelle I think Russ would make that person disappear but I don't think he would do it to a 12 year old girl no no okay I I I think he's a total jerk from my part perspective but I don't think he would I don't think he would in my viewpoint in my viewpoint I actually feel sorry for restaurants because you know had I have dropped a a middle school child off of their home and then they disappeared and like the garage door was open or halfway open or whatever it is and I watched them get in the door I think I would feel guilty for the rest of my life that make could I have done something better you know okay so all right I I think yeah I personally see him as more a victim in this than a villain okay because I have to admit not that I'm going to you know that's totally up to you uh that um you know as far as the the PDF that you sent me I have to admit that it has a feeling to it that's a little bit more explicit than what you're saying here not my opinion once again that it sounds to me that you're pointing a finger at him a little bit more than what you're stating in this interview my opinion well I okay I I agree with you what I'm getting at is if you're looking for people with if you're looking at people who are you're trying to narrow down people most likely to do it he had special knowledge he has specific knowledge that she was home alone right right I didn't know existed or disappeared right right I know that yes okay fair enough all right so uh he dropped her off but he was it wasn't alone he wasn't alone with Janelle he was with one of his children and there is once again there is proof that Janelle was at home because she got that phone call so it's not like Russ is lying about dropping her off she was home and she took this phone call okay all right very good all right how close once again if you know at the time or maybe you've learned since how close were the Rosses and the Matthews did the families hang out did they go to parties together or did their kids just happen to be in the same you know class together do you know how close they were I I don't know any of that when I worked I don't know where Russia lives in 1984 I know that in 1978 79 he owned a house nah uh uh he owned a house in uh Greeley and it was and over a different a different neighborhood and not a not a real older neighborhood but houses like from the 60s in a different section of town and I I can't remember exactly where it was but it was it was kind of a blue gray house that uh but I was never inside of it I had dropped off he had when he he had a Seven-Up car that was provided for him when he was a supervisor and he was sick one day or something like that and I went with another 7-Up person either get it or drop it off I don't remember what it was but uh he lived in a different part of town okay how close would you say that okay okay how close would you say once again I know it's been years how what close would you say would you say that Russell Ross lived closer to the Matthews would you say you lived closer to the Matthews the way you think about it back home I'm guessing about the same distance but from different directions okay thank you so to put this all together the person who dropped Janelle off was your boss at one time a guy who you had problems with who uh was part of a lawsuit you on one side of the lawsuit he on the other he and the company on the other and they ended up losing and this uh lawsuit was settled right around the time that Janelle disappeared or I I'm not clear on that no no no it was settled in 1980. oh it was settled in 1980 okay all right but since then still you weren't working for him or anything but you are of the opinion that he still had bad blood against you because of that or was it like just bygones be gone too I I I don't know that he did or didn't have Goliath blood again okay all right let's let's I'm just gonna ask you another Frank question do you think that Russell once again you've talked about your father-in-law and of course this conversation do you think that uh Russell Ross could have been a person who also given this bad beef given these problems he had with you given that he dropped Janelle off that night do you think it is possible that he could have put the police on to you being that he would have known about this rape charge back in the 1970s do you think he could have had anything to do with the police uh you know hounding you you know suspecting you yes possibly okay all right okay I know I I'm just asking you if it's a possibility we don't know we don't know what's in his head you know and no none of us have been keeping track of Russell Ross over the last 39 years but he's the guy that dropped her off he's had problems with you and so I have to ask these questions you know if it was somebody some stranger who dropped her off that night who you didn't know and never had a beef with and everything then I wouldn't be asking these questions but you know I I have to ask them just because I know that people are going to wonder about these things so but being that you said that there was a completely please go ahead this is your interview please okay uh I had a chance meeting at a grocery store or gas station or something like that with the guy who was the truck supervisor who was directly under Ross like I don't know oh a few weeks after The Disappearance this was just a chance thing and he told me that right after like within days after the girl disappeared that rust was fired from Seven up for stealing he is another guy we're fired and he had a truck driver were fired from Seven up so I had that conversation which I thought was unique but okay all right but we just don't know about that okay maybe that is just a coincidence okay but uh you've already detailed though that Russ did have a connection to somebody in the police department and this was the guy who was a detective at the time he's a mayor now but at the time in the late or the early 80s uh this guy John Gates his family owned the building I guess at the time you worked there owned the building where seven up Greeley was and Russ worked there and this Gates family owned the building so there is a connection between Russ and somebody who worked in the police department right okay and do you know happen to know how close Russell Ross and John Gates were at the time in the early 80s were they tight loose somewhere in between what do you think I would say loose to somewhere between uh I I can't specifically Define it for you okay um but they knew each other and oh they definitely knew each other okay they definitely talked about me because the excuse for firing me is I was accused of the lady who did the book work in Greeley 7up's office who was like a college student her boyfriend who stands like six two and I'm like 5 11. uh he gotten an argument with me and he got physical with me and uh I think the whole thing was the setup and Gates was the officer who responded and Gates uh wrote me a ticket for I don't know uh I don't know if it was disturbing peace or assault or something like that but it was a misdemeanor ticket and and I gave it to my attorney and it was just thrown out but and that was the excuse for firing okay all right and these misdemeanors of course you mentioned them as we're going close to the three hour mark but this with this interview but early on you talked about all these misdemeanors that you got when you got these misdemeanors how many of them were was officer John Gates responsible for how many run-ins did you have with him in particular regarding those misdemeanors you got from Greeley the Greeley Police Department two two okay all right and um so he knew who you were he knew that you know that there was something going on would you say that those two in particular where they cooked up did you deserve them what do you think I would say that they were cooked up okay what were they uh one was the uh one was the uh oh uh the the one with the uh the boyfriend okay girl who worked in the office okay right seven up and then the other one was the uh one where uh uh when um oh there was a I had written a check that bounced and he had written a misdemeanor thing okay after and it was also dismissed it was after uh um it was after the 7-Up thing okay uh was officer John Gates at the time responsible at in any way to investigate Janelle's disappearance once again to your knowledge yes uh according to the recent uh Colorado Sun internet uh website uh News website uh John Mayer Gates told uh that that uh web paper that he was the third detective at Janelle Matthews uh house the night she disappeared okay my thought on when I read that is well what were you doing before you were the third detector there well I I that may seem uh uh interesting but I got to tell you A lot of times police don't show up at all regarding disappearances even when it's children once again my experience I wouldn't expect you to know something like that but I can tell you what 150 missing persons cases that oftentimes police are slow to show up even when it when it's teenagers or you know early teenagers that might be different when it's very very small children but okay if that's what he says maybe he's just doing that to Pat his resume being that he's mayor and probably nobody would remember that anyway just wants to say he was doing something I I don't know how we would find that out anyway but okay um to your knowledge I have to ask this has Russell Ross ever been asked about his whereabouts for that evening after he dropped Janelle off has that anything ever come out to you no idea okay but there is actual proof that he did because Janelle answered that phone call and let's move on to this this is once again one of the items that you sent to me we talked about December 20th and on that day you say that you were and your wife were packing her car you said you were putting things in the car that wouldn't freeze um be you know and uh you say that you were at home at the time that Janelle uh would have disappeared however I when did you see these two cars pull into your driveway did you think anything of it the time this is something that you sent to me tell the listeners about it on on the evening of December 20th 1984 uh the car was packed with non-freezeable stuff and I looked out the kitchen window which would have been the front window to look at the because we lived on an acre we had a front-wheel drive car and we're gonna leave early the next morning to make sure the snowfall wasn't such that we couldn't get out of the driveway I knew once we got out on the highway in front we'd be okay but just looking there two vehicles pulled in my driveway the first one as I remember it was a in about a 1978 uh Ford Courier pickup that was light colored with a dark colored right front fender they're one right that behind it was a Mist green Chevy Nova four-door like the cheap model which I knew that the Weld County Sheriff's Office had two of those for delivering uh delivering papers like civil papers serving papers and so I assumed it was like that used as an army unmarked police car you pulled into the driveway I thought oh no I might be getting another arbitrary charge the cars pulled in they look signed like their headlights shine towards my house and then towards Cliff Sharp's house to the west of me they turned around and left so I thought after that I thought no more of it I didn't think about that again until the conversation with my father a week later you have to keep in mind if I didn't have the conversation with my father-in-law I would have forgotten long ago what happened that night I would have gotten long ago about the two vehicles pulling in the driveway so the connection to that is is because of lying my father-in-law conversation right and the way you remember it in relation to the time that is accepted that hour in which Janelle was home by herself how close was this time of these cars pulling in to her in that hour about the same time before after what do you think I'm not sure I I was looking at a clock I know we were going to bed earlier than we normally would we normally went to bed probably 11 or 12 o'clock you know like 11 and midnight normally we went to bed earlier because we were getting up like three four in the next morning and I know that where we put the boy to bed by nine o'clock anyway but we put him earlier to bed and we normally would because he was going to be getting up early so I I I I just plain can't give you an exact time frame I'm guessing I'm guessing you'd be around 10 10 30. when I looked out the front window okay so the your your best guess was would be after the time that Janelle disappeared your best guess that would be my guess okay and you want to I I think I want to be clear about something you're this unmarked car you're not saying that that was a Greely Police Department car you're saying that was a county sheriff or something car yes okay all right have they played any role in this disappearance at all we really haven't talked about I mean I have to admit we talk about sheriffs a lot more maybe in a state like Texas but in Colorado have they played any role in the investigation of Janelle's disappearance at all yeah it was on their Turf that her body was found well I mean at the time maybe I should be more at the time in 1984 when she goes missing did they were they the ones they they lead the investigation did no it was really cool but just to be clear once again because I think when I I read that I read it as being a Greely Police Department undercover car but you're saying it was a County undercover car all right thank you do you have any suspicion once again this would just be a guess do you have any suspicion who is in the either of those cars I I don't know I don't know okay if you if you want to use a name if you have a suspicion this would be the time to do it I mean you know because I want to you know if if you can take a guess do you know have you ever seen that truck before it's a miscolored truck seems like it would have uh stuck out I I I've never seen it before or since okay I I think if I were to suspect anybody it would be John Gay and that I personally believe that you know I believe he's the one who's he's the one who put made uh officer Jones chief of police he's the one who I believe is the the motivating factor in pointing it to me okay okay but just to be clear though this uh Gates guy did not work for the county he was a city cop he was not a County Deputy correct correct so he wouldn't have he wouldn't have been in the County vehicle so you're saying he might have been in the pickup truck yeah could you I'm sorry you went out there for a second could you please stay the did you was that a yes oh oh yeah all right yeah okay so that's all right uh so you're saying that your suspicion is the gates once again your theory of events is the gates might have been in the the miscolored or discolored or multi-colored pickup truck and not the County vehicle that's the thing that that's a I I would call it a guess I would call it a suspicion a possibility okay okay and as far as the County vehicle goes uh any deputies uh law enforcement officers at the county level that you could have pointed at and say maybe that was the person driving the County vehicle there was a a red-haired detective who was a few years younger than me with the Wells County Sheriff's Office I don't remember his name I remember his face he was a little shorter than me about my build uh and he was mad at me because in 1982 he had arrested Steve Adams and another man on a burglary that happened in Evans that's the city directly south of Greeley on a force doing twenty thousand dollars which of the coins and that might have been equal or more to the values than the house that it was taken from in 1980 182 dollars and uh he I had had I had Steve Adams had talked to me and given me information on it and when I asked Adams I said were you in that house when nobody else is there and said yes I had thrown off my hands and I said I don't want to hear anymore and uh anyway the detective was unhappy with me that he felt I had blown his case because uh I went to my attorney Don jenkwell and and I was at a preliminary hearing I was put on the witness stand Steve Adams and the other man were the defendant and uh on uh on the witness stand like that I couldn't remember what the conversation was and the case was thrown out against him and so that detecting was really mad at me okay put a lot of time into it okay now you made a serious uh being now that you've talked a little bit about the cops and you've made uh you know we've talked about uh this Gates guy and now you've talked about this County Detective we have to go back to something you said uh that was a while ago that was a very provocative statement that you believe that the police for a long time have known where Janelle's remains were and they knew that eventually that they would get found um how can you say something like that why well that's what I believe uh according to reports according to uh killer Vibes broadcast and all of May 10th 2019 which I listened to uh it said on there that they were searching certain areas and all and I became aware that they were searching and this has been just come out in the papers so I mean your listeners can find it online but they dug three holes in the front yard of the house 6086 West 10th Street where I lived in April May somewhere around in there uh and uh uh you know and all of a sudden I I guess all of a sudden that after 35 years uh they find her body in where they find it east of LaSalle and when they're doing all this digging and the case is really heated up and they've made multiple contacts to me or my attorney in the last few months and and all I guess you can either say God interferes in the Affairs to man or the Greeley police or the police move evidence to make a case and I personally think both are possible the latter more probable so I I I I think I think on genetic I think on December 20th 1984 I think Janelle had a comp confrontation with a trusted adult I think there was a a physical and instant physical confrontation she was injured killed whatever and I think that there were relationships between the police and Sunnyview Church of the Nazarene and uh I think I I I I don't think for a minute that a cop went to her house and you don't believe that you what you just said is you don't believe that it was actually a police officer showed up at her house and abducted her no no okay I don't believe that I believe I believe you have to keep in mind and this had been seven years before seven eight nine years before that I would begin pastor of the church he went to so I don't I didn't know everybody there but I knew a lot of things about the people there I didn't want my five-year-old to be in that church uh so I I think that there was a confrontation with at least one trusted adult there was injury death whatever and I think possibly they could have contacted a a law enforcement and I think knowing law enforcement in my absolute belief that homophobia and racial Prejudice go together if you look uh with her stepfather stepmother step sister Interventional what her friends say about her uh and I'm sure that your people who are good [ __ ] good at looking stuff up would find by all accounts Janelle was a strong will 12 year old I mean that's fine there's nothing to think about it that's fine being that I think her being biologically Hispanic in that church uh uh I think that there were some who would have been willing to put her in her place and I I think the difference between an adult size wise and a middle schooler in a physical confrontation I think the middle schooler would lose and uh so I this is a theory I can't back it up but I think at that time I think then you know uh a a a somebody then calling a cop friend and saying you know I didn't mean for this to happen it just happened and I think then a cop friend went went to your father-in-law and asked for a favor well yes that's that's my theory but I can't prove it okay okay but uh are you then saying that do you think that this person went over to the house knowing that Janelle was there alone I don't know that I don't I don't know that okay being I know that you didn't have a very close relationship with your father-in-law but do you believe that he was closer to one police officer closer than all the others and that one could have been the one that came to him I mean if we're going to believe a story I guess we have no choice but to believe it that some cop came and talked to him is there any particular cop that he was closer to than all the others that could have come and done that I don't know that he had a relationship with any police okay okay part of you have to keep this is part of when the questions that I was asked by agent lions at the end why I was so into jumping ship to believing this was kids on a kit okay yeah yes okay and it doesn't what happened doesn't make sense in my own head okay okay but but I'm not going to embellish and I'm just gonna say this is what happened I can't explain it why um I guess what I'm saying is the reason you think that once again in your perception the way you understand everything that's happened of course you've been the the focus of this since April at least you know with warrants and seizing of cars and everything else you find it particularly peculiar that all of a sudden out of nowhere they start contacting you in April then all of a sudden in July they they find Janelle's remains yes okay yeah okay and uh you know I think I think that would be unique to any rational person but I don't know okay I think uh well I I you know I I guess I'm gonna have to tend to agree with 35 years is a long time and to think that they're not talking to you for all this time and you know even though once in a while maybe something popped up here and there but you know that nothing going on then all of a sudden they're trying to find you they're talking to you and two months later somehow some gas company happens upon your remains I suppose it could get a lot of people to thinking okay now I guess okay so but but what I'm trying to say is this is the reason that you think the police might have known where it remains are all the time because you can't discount the uh Coincidence of it that it maybe wasn't a coincidence right I I would say it would be consistent with the theory that took place new all along but it's certainly not proof okay um do you believe the now in 2019 you were trying to be framed for the murder of Janelle Matthews yes I think that uh I think that there's I I think when something happens to a kid it's a natural thing that adults it really gets to them and somebody needs to pay I think that's the way people think of it the the my phone number that was on uh that was on that well it's still on the my website uh I have gotten I've had people leave me very angry messages uh just flat out accusing me of molesting her all kinds of things so that didn't happen but anytime you mention something happening to a kid it's it's going to it's going to provoke promotions I'm sure I gotta ask you um you believe that you are being framed being that you claimed that you didn't do it and now they're serving warrants and and all these things and once again you've made some serious allegations regarding the police having no you know at least some of them uh knowing where her remains have been all this time um if they knew where her remains were all this time why are they now just in 2019 getting around to trying to frame you when they could have done this back in 1985. well in 1985 there was no gas and oil drilling operation going on on that property her body could have been uh decaying decaying decaying wouldn't be found it wouldn't be an issue you wouldn't be doing anything like that when they keep they've got this thing they're now 35 years ago 35 years after the fact they're grilling they keep growing then I think the body's going to be found at some point and you need to have somebody let me turn that around if if they just came right out and said you know officer X disposed of the body out there and she did that I think that they would be flooded with lawyers over the years that would be over making motions to overturn many criminal cases from slower than to the current I guess I guess what I'm saying I guess what I'm saying is 35 years is a long time to wait to frame somebody well 35 years is a long time to find a body so I think I think the the fact is that the body thinking that a good chance that a body would be found I mean why why why 35 years later at all I lived in Greeley for two years after this happened I mean why why 35 years later at all well I well that's why maybe I need to ask you this question then um do you believe if you believe that you're being framed and obviously they're coming after you quite hard and obviously as you've stated you had trial problems with the Greeley Police Department well before um Janelle went missing do you believe they hatched this plan to frame you for the murder back then or is this something a plan that just was hatched this year I have no idea I mean well if you thought about it I don't have you thought about it not I not in those turns not really I kind of I'm living in the present I guess what I'm saying is if if we are to believe I'm not saying I necessarily believe that but you said it so we have to talk about it if you believe that the police have known where her remains have been for a long time we could long time meaning years and years and years um do you think then sometime like back like in let's say March of 2019 they knew where this pipe was going to be going and they said you know what that those remains they're right in the line of where this pipeline is going to be and there's no way we're going to be out there get that without buddy somebody's seeing this we're going to have to find somebody to pin this on when the remains are found do you believe that happened no okay then then how do you think then where do you think this trying to put it on you has come from and when did it start I think in uh according to the uh website of the uh Greely City of Greeley uh Gates it was what 2017 that he became mayor I think that I know in uh according to the Vibes podcast what is their nicknack do you know what that is excuse me no I'm not sure okay it's supposed to be some place back East where old he's uh old detectives who are superstars who get together and help police solves cold cases you know anyway uh I I know that uh uh cash and a a investigator in a in a prosecutor with the District Attorney's office went there in January of 2018 and presented the Janelle Matthews case to them and uh I think that uh I don't know this but uh according to the May 15 killer vibe uh podcast uh for the May 10th 2019 kilobytes podcast [Music] they focused in on a suspect or a person of interest or something like that they didn't give a name but I I think that this is been building for at least a year okay I don't know that you know relevant questions I don't know okay but all I'm saying is that generally when people think that they're getting framed they didn't do something but somebody's trying to dependent on them um usually they have an idea you know why it started when it started Etc and I what you're saying is that you're not just not quite sure about those answers so the answers to those questions I agree with what you just said I am not quite sure answer this question okay all right well I guess what I'm also asking is being that they seem to be after you that's the way you put it these misdemeanors 20 misdemeanors of course none of them ever stuck I guess when I'm also asking is do you believe this could be a revenge for you getting out of that 35 years ago I would assume that that would be part of the motivation and that's that's simply a and an assumption let me uh Ed I contacted you to do this interview you didn't contact me that's true I want to be trans I want to be transparent I know you do but anytime in in anytime people embellish anything and then it turns out they're wrong about what they embellished they look like guilty or they look like a fool so what I'm saying yet is there's some things I just don't understand here okay and I'm very on ongoing where I don't know for because I I I don't know okay okay that's fine I just made I want to make sure that when we're done this interview that everybody feels that including myself that I probe this allegation once again you stated it it's just a theory I realize if we knew what happened it could just be solved today as I've said many times on all the disa we if we knew what happened we could just go solve it right now whoever did it Whatever happened we could just do it right now but when somebody I mean when we talk about crooked cops on unfound if you listen to the program we do do that right in fact of one of unfound's most famous cases that continues in what's partially solved because the remains were found I mean we are the one that kind of put it out there that maybe law enforcement should be looked at in this disappearance it's the most popular episode that that uh that unfound ever did so we're used to talking about corrupt cops but I don't think that we've gone to the extent of saying that you know police knew where these remains were and just let it them there for all these years this is something it's just a theory of yours it's just a suspicion you have and it is based on the fact that here they were out of nowhere starting to talk to you and then two months later remains were found it's just a little too weird to you yeah okay all right I think it's consistent with my theory okay but I think it's consistent with my theory and I'm just going to ask you point blank now to give you an opportunity and then I want to ask you about one more thing um are you responsible for The Disappearance and death of Janelle Matthews no I did not know she existed or disappeared until six days after the fact okay thank you so happened I know that you're divorced have you had a chance to talk to your wife at the time about any of this yeah in this conversation we talked about that she called me uh when the police that contact the Greeley police had contacted her on August 16th okay how did if you can say how does she feel about all this I think she feels that I'm a I've always been a controversial person and uh I am the person who takes on the big boys definitely things lie and I think she thinks this is just my life and she's glad she's gone a different direction okay all right okay we'll leave it at that uh Steve I think we've come to the end of this interview I'm going to give you an opportunity uh any last words before we complete it and I want to thank you an unfound for giving me this opportunity it's the lengthiest uh interview I've had I think you have been very fair to me and I think you've been fair to Justice you've asked hard questions but you have given me the opportunity to say my uh my part I also look forward to the comments and and the whatever your uh listeners who are supposed to find so thank you Ed thank you you're welcome that's my job I mean I am a missing persons reporter but I'm a journalist first so you contacted me I talked it over with my assistants everybody knows who who they are and we you know kind of threw around do we want to do this how do we want to do this and in the end we decided that you know what we are just going to treat you like we treat every other person on here we're going to ask tough questions uh the guest is going to give the answers and then it's up to the listeners to determine whether the person is telling the truth or not of course like I said I don't think that we've had anybody else on the program who is a person of interest or has had warrants served on them or anything else but I'm perfectly willing to treat a person as innocent until proven guilty um but I also know that as a journalist I have to ask the tough questions and that's just what I do that's just my job but um I I it's I appreciate you giving me this opportunity and if you are innocent I hope that they do actually do catch you did this so this can be off the mod your mind for the rest of your life but I also want to say if you are guilty then I hope they prosecute you to the fullest extent of the law okay that's my attitude I understood okay Steve thank you thank you for this interview and thank you sir all right you're welcome and that was my now very well-known interview with Steve Pankey that occurred on October 14 2019. that is the only time I ever spoke to him on the phone a slightly edited version of the interview is what prosecutors used to convict Steve during October 2022 I anticipate although I cannot promise that this will be the last time you hear this interview on an unfound episode yes even I may be getting tired of listening to it yet I played it today because there's one thing left to be done what can we learn from that interview not in the context of Janelle's murder Steve has been convicted there's nothing more to be done there what I mean is what can we learn from that interview and the past three years and apply it to podcasting and murders slash disappearances in general allow me to talk about podcasting first number one doing real interviews matters many hosts talk to their guests then edit the interviews as the hosts see fit had I done that no way does the interview ever make it into a courtroom why no defense is ever going to allow an interview to be played if the host decided what the audience heard and what it didn't remember editing is manipulation both in podcasting and in movies yes the prosecution would want the whole thing but there's no guarantee a judge would allow it if things were said off the Record number two it's okay to let the guest talk in retrospect wood eventually did Steve in was he couldn't shut up in fact his lawyer in the first trial said as much on that 48 Hours episode and as a good interviewer you have to know whether the person is a suspect or not when to jump in and want to not jump in any person doing an interview is simply a question asker and conversation guider that's it that's all I am I am not the star the guests are the stars and the last one regarding podcasting all work must be ethical moral and legal never could I have suspected in October 2019 that the interview I was about to do would eventually be used in court I mean that never anticipated it still everything I did with Steve was done 100 percent honestly yet what if Weld County had contacted me about the interview and I had to tell them well you know I kind of cut Corners here Steve didn't know he was being recorded there what would have happened that is the last conversation I would have ever had with Weld County they would not want to enter into evidence anything that was done underhandedly or sloppily even if it happened due to mistakes and not on purpose manipulation so all you podcasters and reporters always work with a belief that someday whatever you're working on is going to be needed in a criminal trial don't cut corners as for what we can bring from the Janelle Matthews murder two disappearances and we have to remember her case was a disappearance for 35 years number one never give up Janelle's disappearance was older than about 85 percent of unfounds cases when her remains were found in July 2019. as you can imagine the odds of any kind of case being solved this much later are very low but it happened to all the family members out there friends too you cannot give up but on that topic number two sometimes there's nothing probably one of the most important parts of Janelle's murder whether you believe Steve did it or not is that in all the work the police did over 35 years and then the investigation until the conviction a month ago not one piece of evidence ever connected anyone to that field yet that is where the crew found Janelle's Remains by accident meaning we must realize for disappearances and even outright murders there's often no Trail to evidence that will lead us to a resolution outside of the killer just revealing where that evidence is to explain further given that Steve is now accepted to be Janelle's murderer we would have thought that her remains would be found on property owned by Steve or at least an area familiar to him like what happened with the murders of Zoe Campos and Andrea Bowman yet that is not what happened nothing about Steve or anybody else pointed to that field like I said sometimes there's nothing and now the final point we don't know the unknowns what do I mean try to wrap your mind around this one in an alternate timeline say I had contacted Janelle's family in 2018 while Janelle was still missing and let's say her mother and I talked a few times she went through the same process that every guest experiences before doing the official interview and during that interview I had asked Janelle's mother every conceivable question that came to my mind and she answered every one of them will wrap your mind around this had all that happened Steve Panky still would not have been mentioned once why because the Matthews family had never heard of him until 2019. a year after I would have done this hypothetical interview so once again in this alternate timeline 34 years after The Disappearance I could have interviewed Janelle's family and Steve Pankey would have never been mentioned but a mere four years later after the interview Steve is convicted for Janelle's murder really I still cannot believe police never mentioned Steve to the Matthews given everything Steve said about the Matthews and Janelle over those 35 years what this shows is we cannot discuss things that we do not know exist meaning we must realize that despite my guests and me being as thorough as possible there are surely many relevant facts for these disappearances that although we think we should know them we don't because really if a person of interest like Steve cannot be mentioned to the Matthews family over 35 years even with his bizarre behavior and talk then anything is possible in any disappearance one more thing before I end this era of the murder of Janelle Matthews some of you more than a few for sure have questioned my attitude and my words concerning the guilt of Steve panky in fact I think many of you are surprised that I have been so non-committal on his guilt despite me providing a key piece of evidence against him that surely helped put him in jail the way I look at the interview is I didn't put Steve in jail Steve put Steve in jail and he didn't do that just in my interview but he did it over about 35 years because he couldn't keep his mouth shut he drew attention to himself and there was no way law enforcement could ignore him but what I'm also saying is had Steve Panky never uttered a word to anyone about Janelle whether he is guilty or not he would have never popped up on law enforcement's radar in fact I'm fairly sure investigators would have continued on the path of Norse Drake whether it was fruitful or not a person who their own investigator at the time according to the Greeley Tribune was never ruled out and that ends this era I'll leave the theorizing up to you and that's the program right now while you are in your podcast platform Spotify YouTube iTunes wherever give un found a five-star review a thumbs up whatever that platform allows I thank you for listening I'm at densol and you've just finished this episode of unfound [Music]