welcome to the official Heisman Trophy podcast hello with a kickoff Ro has a strong leg and over Sanders takes it one yd G The End Zone up 10 15 20 [Music] [Music] 25 hello hello and the winner is here's your host Chris Houston welcome to episode five of the official Heisman Trophy podcast I'm Chris Houston and if you are a Notre Dame fan you're really going to love this show today later on in the episode we have a lengthy discussion with 1987 Heisman Trophy winner and NFL Hall of Famer Tim Brown and we're going to lead things off with Sam Hartman the quarterback for the Notre Dame Fighting Irish Hartman came to Notre Dame from Wake Forest and he's off to a great start so far this year and like everyone who comes on our show he's one of the best football players in the entire country but first a little housekeeping we have to talk about our trivia question from last week the question was who was the first player to have his Heisman Trophy announcement made on live national television and the answer is Marcus Allen in 1981 and the person who got that right was Mike Wilson out of Fresno California congrats Mike we'll send that Heisman hat out to you right away now for this week's trivia question name the three Heisman Trophy winners who were born outside the United States if you think you know the answer to that one just email us at podis man.com that's podis man.com and if you get the answer right we'll send you a Heisman Trophy hat or duffel bag good luck and now it's time to round up what's happening in the Heisman world it's The highman Round Up week three while week four on Saturday is bringing us a ridiculous amount of huge matchups there are plenty of eye-catching performances from week three we need to highlight and man we are compelled to start with that EPIC Colorado Colorado State double overtime Thriller that the Buffalo won 4335 Buffalo's quarterback shador Sanders threw for 348 yards and four touchdowns to help his team Outlast their interestate rival but the showstopper was the late 98 yard game time touchdown drive that Sanders orchestrated almost entirely through the air that culminated with this 45 yard touchdown strike to Jimmy horn Jr Sanders downfield got him in [Applause] horn atonement [Applause] touchdown Colorado's former Big 12 rival Oklahoma is on its own hot streak improving to 3 and0 after a 60 to 17 win over Tulsa that saw quarterback Dylan Gabriel throw for 421 yards and five touchdowns the red shirt senior completed a gouty 28 of 31 throws for a completion percentage of 90.3 which was a school record by a single Le player Gabriel likes the way the sooner offense is progressing yeah just as as a unit I think we did really well uh you know making a bunch of plays uh turning you know kind of some short passes into chunks and as well I think we play really good Tempo so just putting that all together it's it's a beauty to see Michael penck Jr helped the Huskies drop the hammer on Michigan State throwing for 473 yards and four touchdowns and a 41-7 victory the Lefty signal caller has already passed for 1332 yards in three games with 12 touchdowns a little luck doesn't hurt as this second quarter tipped pass fell into the hands of Jaylen pul who scored on a 30-yard play that one is batted in the air and it's still a completion Jaylen pul able to run underneath it and get all the way down for a touchdown not exactly how they drew it up but effective nonetheless [Music] in another game that featured record-breaking accuracy LSU quarterback Jaden Daniels led the Tigers to a 4114 victory over Mississippi State behind not only his arm but his legs Daniels threw for 361 yards on 30 of 34 passing in two scores the 88.2% completion percentage an LSU record in games with at least 25 attempts he also ran in the final two scores for the Tigers including this one yard Scamper in the fourth quarter Daniels pulls gets fre fre and spins in again Jaden Daniels with his second rushing touchdown of the day we closed the Roundup with a tremendous performance from Syracuse quarterback Garrett Shader who rushed for5 yards and four touchdowns on 25 carries to go with 184 yds passing as the orange defeated Purdue 3520 his four rushing scores were the most ever in a game by a Syracuse quarterback and in a high related fun fact this giv Syracuse its first back-to-back 3 and0 starts since it was led by Heisman winner Ernie Davis in the 1959 and 1960 Seasons here's shider on his big game yeah the Run game the quarterback run game was there just the way they play their defense a lot of manto man so that we getting open catching balls down the field and then um I have I had we knew I'd have a ton of lanes to run and pull the ball and I probably did a little more than I probably should have but I mean we got the job done so hey college football fans tickets to the 2023 Heisman Trophy dinner gala are now on sale the event takes place in New York City on Sunday December 10th the day after the Heisman Trophy ceremony the guest of honor for the gala is the 2023 Heisman Trophy winner as well as the 50th Anniversary winner John capetti the 25th anniversary winner Ricky Williams and the 10th anniversary winner jamus Winston plus we'll also be honoring the 20123 Heisman humanitarian award winner just go to heisman. comom to purchase tickets and Witness isman history this episode's featured guest is off to a sizzling start this year through four games he leads the country and touch down passes with 13 He has 1,61 yards passing and a passer rating of 27.8 one which is third in the country with no interceptions in his first 90 attempts he plays quarterback at the University of Notre Dame a very prominent position in Heisman lore nonetheless he has a chance to become the first Fighting Irish quarterback to be a Heisman finalist since 2006 so it's been a while I had a chance to catch up with them last week after practice amidst the sounds of a very busy athletic department in the background and with my voice still a bit raspy from a cold I'm recovering from all right Sam Hartman University of Notre Dame thanks for coming on the official Heisman Trophy podcast I appreciate you guys having me so you're in your sixth year closing in on 14,000 career yards last year you had 371 yards 38 touchdowns Wake Forest 120 career touchdowns number 10 on the alltime NCAA chart can you walk us through uh how you made the decision to stay for your sixth year and do it all at Notre Dame yeah I mean I think uh I mean a big part of it is the University of Notre Dame uh and that kind of tagline and and that draw um I mean I think I wasn't a Notre Dame fan growing up uh but obviously knew the name you know seen the movie Rudy right all the the fame and lore of that you know iconic football brand um I think there was there was a lot of draw there um but I think the biggest thing um was I've playing as long as I played in the different teams I've been on I I've seen a lot of guys graduate with eligibility or declared to the NFL with eligibility left whether it's three years whether it's two years whether it's a year um and then sadly they never play the game again and I I believe I can play in the NFL I believe um that I'll get my shot but you never really know I think uh sometimes you know people get uh an unlucky draw they get to a place and you know it just doesn't work out they get hurt yeah um and I felt like the opport to continue to play college at um at Notre Dame in the system that I'm playing in at at the with with the team that I've been blessed to be a part of was was a opportunity I couldn't pass up and um I've been you know so grateful for that decision and again not every decision is going to work out um as well as I feel like this one has worked out and you know there's a lot of chapters still we gotta complete and a lot of games still left to be played and memories to be made and um I've I've just I've enjoyed every moment and it's not always been easy um and the start was not definitely uh something that I anticipated but um you know persevering and and pushing through and and the team uh that I I've been you know you know graciously you know accepted into has been uh just incredible and and a humbling uh experience for me and you're talking about the the change of office of coordinators uh when you got there yes okay uh so you're 24 years old and you've got a bunch of uh guys and some cases who are 18 19 what's it like uh hanging out with guys who are five or six years younger with you than you um they you know it's not the biggest difference um you know there's some young guys on the team you're like holy cow or um you know you see kids walking across campus when I'm going to class they like dude that kid looks like he's 12 um but again I probably looked like that when I was or I did look like that was a freshman I was 170 pounds soaking wet and um no facial hair no nothing and um I think it's it's uh it's cool because you know again it's every football team is its own team and um every every guy on the team is its own guy and and get to learn and and know and and play with some of the coolest individuals uh really in the world and I think that's the the great thing about this this game we play is um you know the Melting Pot of of a locker room is just is Iconic in its own self and it's the only real place in the world where I feel like it's that many people coming together um from so many different backgrounds and and executing at a high level and a really high-pressured situation um and and the relationships go you know Way Beyond ball and and you know that I've been in now coming up on my third wedding um after the season I've been a groomsman in two I'll be a groomsman in two and just in one um and the other and again those those are those moments where like yeah winning football games and be a part of of a a really high level football team is great but um those things off the field are stuff as you as I get older right as I'm the old man is is stuff that you kind of try and tell those fresh and like listen like your roommate right now is going to be the guy you're you're telling Hey brother I'm about to get engaged with my girlfriend or this or that or I'm having you know hey we're having a kid like all those things are starting to happen for me where it's just like um I can remember those days sitting you know in the hot sun running gassers or whatever with that guy and it's that's the great part about this this game and something kind of circling the wagons of why I wanted to continue playing and stay in college yeah it sounds like you made a great adjustment coming from uh Carolina up to Indiana what was the biggest adjust adjustment for you um I mean the weather was huge um that's kind of passed but I can tell that it's going to start getting colder here soon yeah um the the offensive schemes right being under Center taking Snaps like I'm still growing and learning on that to this day um and then just the adjustment a new locker room new system new everything new routines um new house like I've been in the same house for three years um coming up here to a different apartment like my my tracks my where I'm driving to how I'm getting to different places where can I park all those little things you kind of take for granted as at wake it was almost like the I mean I could do it with my eyes closed and then you get here and you're kind of you feel like a freshman but you're also supposed to be this 24y old sixe senior that's got it all put together and so um but again it I was gracious with Notre Dame you know kind of let me I took me a little bit to get settled in and even in springball I struggled a little bit early and um you know they kept their faith in me and just let me develop and um you know it's paid off so far heard you like to fish what's the fishing like in South Bend compared to Carolina it's it's a you know it was it took a while to be able to it's so cold here um in the spring the Spring's usually a great time down in uh Winston Salem to get out great weather um you know there's probably there's a lot of Pawns up here but I just don't know enough people to be getting access um and I I think the the big difference no salt water so that's that's probably a huge bummer you made your Irish debut in Dublin Dublin Ireland uh what was that whole trip like uh it was an incredible experience I mean I think it was a home game for us and all you know all facets of it you know it felt like it there was the crowd was all green um obviously the execution part A lot of those and it it was a very similar to The Bull games I've been to where um kind of the big thing the asteris behind everyone is if you win or lose right the the great blll games are the ones you win the bad ones are the ones you lose um no matter what the experience is but um obviously the you know city of Dublin and in Ireland itself just embraced us you know with open arms and and the whole you know Air Lingus to the you know our 80s setting it all up to the fans right to the community um all those different things were just so uh so warm welcoming for us and and then again being around those guys again it was kind of like a mini camp trip for us we got to you know be around each other even more and um it's it's special to to get that opportunity and then obviously to capitalize it with the victory was was huge uh did you talk to a lot of the people in Ireland were they really aware of what Nord Dame was about yeah there was a good um there was a good good healthy crew of people that kind of when we were walking the streets or we were at like a dinner thing that you know they were excited uh my cousin actually lives there um he's been living there for about like five years for work and he's got um you know his family there so it was he lives three minutes from the stadium so he was all fired up and he said that everybody from when the month hit that like August hit it was that's all the buzz was about and um How the Irish were coming to town and you know hope we you know put on a good show so they had a lot of fun a lot of Guinness was drinking Yeah by other people not us right um got a two-part question one who's your quarterback role model and then who is your beard role model because you probably got the best uh Sports beard since since James Harden uh and I'm wondering if any facial hair companies are reaching out to you for a little nil I gotta I I'll answer the second one first I don't know if I have a um a beard inspiration I kind of I know the first time I grew out my hair and like the whole was was Saul Last Samurai um that was like that inspiration and it's kind of that that's what I've been getting for the past couple days um the beard I don't know I think it just grows kind of like I like the like caveman grizzly bear like Revenant look uh I want to clean it up but I can't like it's I feel like that' be you know bad juju or whatever and then um quarterback model like sadly right now is Aaron Rogers you know I count of the style who he is um kind of just his Persona of of kind of just playing the game and playing it the way he wants um you know obviously thinking about him with the injury I know that's got to be devastating for really the National Football League of his performance and his caliber and what he brings to the table um but a lot of I mean you take a lot like I I love Jaylen Herz I think just his story and who he is as a person from what I've heard um is incredible and just way he his college career went right and kind of the the highs and lows of his his life even though you know you kind of look at him and say all it you know it's probably super easy and super um you know very this for him I think that was also a guy that I look at and like to watch and you know just I wish I could run like him and throw like him but just somebody I I I have a he heavy respect for and um know that he's you know one of a kind did you have any college football teams that you followed growing up I was a DieHard Michigan fan um and never was recruited by them so it soon faded pretty quickly um obviously a a bad thing for me to say as a notame quarterback but that that is that is long gone on me and I really I really after kind of when I got probably in probably ninth grade it was kind of just I was just playing and hoping hoping to play at the next level and got a few offers and and decided on Wake but it was never really any dream I wanted to play Michigan but I soon realized that wasn't an option so I kind of faded away pretty quickly yeah now that you're at Notre Dame how much have you learned about uh its history and tradition um I mean every I mean I think you I think the Ireland game summed it up when you have Joe Montana walking on the sidelines um I think that that was a special moment um for me I know for the Notre Dame fans right having him around has been um you know something that is you know only Notre Dame can do uh and you know Joe thyman those different guys are reaching out to you and and checking in and and making sure everything's good Brady Quinn right um you know Jimmy Clawson like those names right are all synonymous synonymous with some of the greatest college quarterbacks and some of the greatest NFL quarterbacks um to play the game and uh just those kind of moments where you're like you know this is uh this is pretty cool right and even you know the fans and and just the the national Global Outreach that we have as this brand um and this University is is special and something that you know I don't think I'll ever truly comprehend until I'm out of it but um it's definitely a a a cool thing to be a part of yeah so the Heisman trust uh its main mission is actually to help underserve communities and and youth and I noticed that you're you're with the Ronald McDonald House and mishana and the YMCA what uh what got you involved in those uh in those two organizations um I mean I think they uh you know Notre Dame partnered with them and and gave us the ability to go there and I I kind of I got pretty hooked into um you know both my parents work uh in medicine my mom was a nurse dad's a doctor um both retired but kind of that service industry and and knowing um both ends of it uh understanding that you know there's the workers and also the um the patients as well and getting around the ronal McDonald House and and helping um pushing the coffee cards like we'll be we'll go Friday I was there on Sunday checking in on um a little girl who's going to uh get a uh blood transplant she just was declared cancer free so we went over and um dropped off some some sweatshirts and and whatnot some noted aim gear I I think it's just um the ability to give back and Inspire I I was I've been in a hospital twice with some stuff that I'll never forget Randy Moss came and visited me when I was 17 years old and I still have sitting on my bedside a a ball signed by him and it it says you know stay hungry rest works you know I can see it right now and it was something that I'm sure he doesn't even remember and I've been dying to get you know I know he does some announcing and commentating of just to get uh a thank you or just I appreciate it and it goes I know it goes a long way and um you know something that is special to me and and hopefully makes an impact on somebody's day and uh I think that that's you know why I do it and why we do it as a Notre Dame Community yeah what's the best part about playing college football the team the team in the locker room I think uh seeing seeing the success and the hard work payoff is is the two greatest things and and being around this group of individuals is is huge did you have any favorite Heisman winners growing up I wasn't really it's kind of bad I mean I everybody loved yeah everyone loved Johnny Manzel but you know he's I mean he's Johnny Manzel he's he's one of a kind um I kind of like the guys that didn't got went there and didn't win it and came back and had better years I mean I think it's um some of that part of it I mean I don't not really I would say no I can't not no one comes to mind fair enough do you know any do you know any uh Notre Dame Heisman winners have you met them met any of them or I totally have and all the names just are flying right out of my head I I I have and it's a shame that I don't the names but um if I was more if I'd been here longer I feel like I'd take I'd be upset but it's um I know that they're you know there are a few um you see you see the Heisman Trophies every time you walk into the waight room so um but I do need to be more well inversed on those names but I do not the names we'll give you a pass because you're you're so new I app finally if you were a Heisman voter and you were looking at a quarterback and wanted to determine uh you know which which quarterback was worthy of your vote what would you be looking for what little area is that are maybe beyond the the Topline stats what would you look at um I mean I think and part of it is the the bounce back factor I think um after bad plays how do they react I think um you know again you you want the Heisman to be the perfect you know go you know 10 for 10 20 for 20 and you know do all these things um I think the great ones and the and the ones that I've seen um play at a really high level the ones that just bounce back from adversity and um I think that's in any player in any award any whatever you want to call it I think that ability is is probably the biggest one I see Sam Hartman thanks for taking the time to join us on the official Heisman Trophy podcast good luck with to you uh and your team for the rest of the season we wish you good health and success I appreciate it thanks for having me on go [Music] Irish this is Danny warle 19 1996 Heisman Trophy winner and you're listening to the official Heisman Trophy podcast take an even deeper dive into Heisman lore by going to heisman. home to All Things Heisman including news bios and the latest on all the winners plus updates on the Heisman Trophy trust and its charitable Mission it's the A to Z for everything Heisman from Alan amichi to Danny worle we really need a Heisman winner whose name begins with Z our next guest is one of the more electrifying players in college football history and the second receiver to win the Heisman Trophy like our previous guest Sam Hartman he's from the University of Notre Dame and we had such a good time talking to him and went on for so long we decided to make this one an all Irish podcast he won the Heisman in 1987 the seventh Fighting Irish player to win the Heisman Trophy and then he went on to a stored career in the NFL few players who played the sport were better at returning punts and kicks and very few could make people Miss in the open field like he could touchdown Timmy as he was called is one of 10 Heisman winners in the NFL Hall of Fame and we caught up with them last week from Dallas Tim Brown thanks for coming on the official Heisman Trophy podcast uh we're glad to have you on the show Good to be here man thank you for having me so I wanted to go back to uh where your football career began out at Dallas Woodward Wilson High uh I I read somewhere that you weren't allowed to play football as a freshman and you were actually playing in the marching band is that right well that story gets uh gets jumbled up a little bit um my mom did not know I was playing and uh she thought that you know I was in the marching band but I did play freshman football but the way we practice I wasn't getting home at 6 or 7 o'clock I would still be home by 4:30 because of how we practiced uh so she was not in favor of me playing football at all so my dad kept signing signing the slips for me to play so so my my first year I was in the marching band and and then I made the varsity team my sophomore year had a pretty good September I think I was named sophomore sensation or something like that and all of her friends kept calling her going your son is in the paper you should check it out and they went they didn't tell her it was sports or whatever so she come at me what did you do what did you do so so you weren't actually in the marching band you were just pretending to be in the marching band no no I was in the marching band my freshman year okay so what what instrument did you play or did you did you uh pretend to yeah I played the uh the uh percussions I played percussions okay were you any good oh very good yeah yeah I mean I I still play play a little bit I play a mean tambourine in church so very nice very nice so we were talking to uh John fish the head coach over at wood Wilson he says he talks to you every once in a while and he says that your golf tournament there is just a huge benefit for their program um what are some of your great memories of uh wood high oh man you know I I think the thing that uh was so great about woodrill was the breakdown of the races you know we probably had it was probably 40 303 man right you know uh Caucasian Black and Hispanic and so you know growing up like that when you're around all these different people really prepares you for different cultures different way of you know people talk and all this stuff how they react to stuff and it was really just a great great place man and uh we really weren't known for our Sports per se but we had a great swimming team and a great cross country team uh but that was just about it I mean everything else we participated but you know um I don't think anybody well I can't say they never dreamt about it because at the uh award ceremony my senior year which would have been you know April May of of 84 uh because they didn't count the seasons right they are announced me as a 1988 Heisman Trophy winner oh man so um she was just awful year that's all but uh so yeah you know I I think from that standpoint man it it was a great place uh great friends you know friends for life you know type place to to uh to to go to school you know when you were going to school did were you aware that Dave O'Brien had had been there I had no idea had no idea didn't didn't realize that until after I won the trophy actually um I was not uh you know David David uh David had passed away in in the in the late 70s I believe um so that would have been before I got to woodroe so I I was never able to uh be around him uh if he came around the school I'm not even for sure if he did tell me a little bit about the recruiting process uh I I guess you guys weren't weren't exactly a Powerhouse uh your team uh Woodward Wilson wasn't and so but you but you were obviously getting a lot of attention and what were some of the schools that you were looking at seriously and and what really was the the final decision or the final Factor at helping you make that decision go to her game well if you call a school that was 425 and one in three years of playing football not a Powerhouse maybe you'll be right was being charitable you know I think for me right right you know I think for me um you know I I played the sport simply because that's what my friends were doing right so you know I wanted to hang out with my boys so um the cheerlead does seem to like the football player so um you know that that's what I was doing and that's the reason I was doing it uh it wasn't until my junior year um we were playing Skyline High School one of the schools that we beat every year so Mount uh woodro and Skyline uh most of the kids that go to those schools they all went to uh uh JL Long Middle School and then there's a split after that some kids go to long and some kids kids go to woodro uhuh so that was always a game that we got up for and we played our best football the year well this particular game um I had my junior year early in my junior year I had four touchdowns a kick return a p return a long catch and a long run I think I had over 400 yards allpurpose yardage that day and uh and that night Notre Dame had came to recruit Dante Jones a kid who went on to play for Oklahoma and played 10 years at middle linebacker for Chicago Bears uh they came to recruit him and I had that incredible game um so then after that you know they sent a letter they came it was a Thursday night game I tell people it's not Friday Night Football if you play wood Wilson because we were so bad we had to play on Thursday night so but um so yeah so you know that game played that game and then after that you know it was really just a matter of okay what what's happening here because know the name once they sent me a letter it seems like I got letters from everybody around the country and my mom you know she didn't understand my dad didn't understand but my older brother thankfully you know he was eight years older than me at the time was really Blown Away by what was happening and and um and really took control of of the situation to help me out so you really weren't into football that much I mean you were playing football in high school but you weren't really into watching games and watching teams as as much as most guys were well I love the Cowboys I mean you mean I did follow the Cowboys but that was basically it and you know well my time in high in high school SMU with the Pony Express got really hot uh so we certainly followed them but beyond that man I mean I couldn't have you know well well the teams the Cowboys played on a regular bases the Eagles the Giants and and the Redskins at the time you know I I probably could have main players on those teams but anybody else from yeah I I probably would wouldn't have known that much about him because it was always Cowboys focused for me yeah were you always going to be a receiver or did other schools want you to be other positions potentially I play running back uh in high school mostly because we didn't have a quarterback who could throw theot ball so um you know my senior year I would rotate from quarterback to running back to to receiver depends on where the ball was going is where I would line up so um yeah so yeah you know I I I was a great I was a good running back well I had great instincts as as a running back but I didn't have the mentality uh to to be a running back you know my ideal was I always want to bounce out or do whatever I didn't have the mentality that four yard mentality that they talk about well you got to you know make that cut and go get those four yards I never had that mentality so I knew I couldn't play um running back at a high level uh because I I just I wouldn't have made it I wouldn't have made it through it I don't believe so so once you got that letter from Notre Dame was it just kind of a feda compley at that point Notre Dame Came Calling and and and you're like okay I have this is this is where I got to go or because it was Jerry Jerry fa right was the coach right right you know I I had no idea about Notre Dame and didn't know where it was and literally had to go to the library to look it up to see where it was and when I figured out it was 12200 miles away from here I was like no way I had no way I'm going that far away and you know you see the weather it's like no I'm not dealing with that six months a year U so but my brother who was also one of these Subway alumni guys knew everything about the University or knew a lot about the university I should say and you know told my parents about you know the the Academia there and you know if he graduates from there life for him you know he'll be able to make make due through life at least you know what I mean if he doesn't if if if uh if nothing else and uh so but at the same time SMU was calling Oklahoma Nebraska Iowa I think Penn State was in there for a minute um and it was H it was a difficult decision and I can tell you if not for what was going on with SMU uh SMU would have been a very difficult place to say no to because it would giving me the opportunity to get a great education and be close to home and play good football you know at a high level so uh but you know once I realized that all those schools besides IA wasn't so bad but the other three were really you know when it came the rules and things of that nature um they they just skirted right by him so my my brother wasn't going for that at all I mean he told my parents hey he could be ruled and eligible if this stuff happens and uh you know cut back on little cash I was getting but but you know I didn't know any better at the time I'm 16 years old sure you know what I mean and uh so it was yeah it was a little crazy so it was a little bit of a culture shock going to South Bend Indiana in the in the fall of 84 right yeah you can you can call it that you know I mean um I think that you know if not you know for the fact that you had some great guys there that I knew I was going to be teaming up with uh literally guys who I talk to every day now actually we got about 15 guys we call out of bond Brothers of Notre Dame um you know we sort of locked on to each other and uh hadn't hadn't let go in 40 years right so um you know but I think you know the great thing about Notre day man you don't go there thinking about a Heisman Trophy and how many years you can play in NFL once you leave you go there thinking what am I going to do in my life you know uh you know once I leave here and so I think from that standpoint you know um I knew it was going to be tough you know the first year was the first six months was really tough first semester was extremely tough but after that you know I mean my my folks would always tell me man you're not missing anything we're sitting in the same chair where you're not here you know there's no party going on there's nothing go you're not missing a thing you know so just chill out you know enjoy yourself or you know so you know I think for me you know getting through those first that first semester being able to come home and um and then you know go back out you know now that went to stuff was was pretty tough pretty daunting right I mean trying to deal with that dealing with feet of snow when you've only had inches in your whole life was a was a difficult thing but you know long as you have good snow boots man you can make it through did you ever find yourself going out to Chicago to to enjoy that City well the problem is you know dur football season you can't go and then you have winter you you know you can't go and uh but L latter in my in my Junior and Senior year uh you know we would have some free time more free time than than before so we we did spend a couple weekends in Chicago Michael Jackson concert things of that nature that we went to go see uh the allstar game which I know is early in early in the year but we did go over there for after my senior year went over there for that um so yeah I mean you know not as much as people think because it's really not available to us because of the weather and football season so you had the first two years with uh coach fa and then and then he was let go when that happened were were you were you worried about how things might turn out and and and what did you think when you first met Lou Holtz not at all I mean uh look I mean I went there to get an education you know my plan was to get an education come back home marry my high school sweetheart be a deacon in the church I mean if you ask me that I repeated to you like it it was planted on my forehead you know so um you know I think for me when coach host came in it was like okay well this is what he wants us to do so let's go do it I mean it wasn't that I was disappointed or happy because in my mind I wasn't there just for football I was there to get an education and you know so it didn't bother me or make me happy or anything until you know we went through winter ball first which was 5:00 a.m. practices and we roll right out of those practices says everybody had to have an 8: a.m. class so that was uh made for a very interesting morning for sure uh but um and once we got on the field after two days of practice you know he pulled me over told me to come to his office and uh he had these ly of questions man just why weren't you playing more I don't know coach they just didn't play me don't you lie to me kid you tell me the truth why weren't you play it coach I don't know was it drugs was it women was it grades you tell me the story right now I said coach I have no idea these people just there's no coaching sta in America dumb enough not to play you you tell me the truth right now and uh and you know so that went on for a couple minutes until he realized I didn't have another answer for it because you know the only thing I can tell him is hey look you know the very first time I touched the ball you know I fumble the open the kick off my freshman year literally the opening kickoff of of the year I fumbled it and I think they just didn't have any trust in me anymore you know so and they were trying to you know they knew they were struggling as a coaching staff so they weren't gonna put a kid out there that in their minds may not perform for them you know what I mean so um so after all that you know he told me after two days of practice he told me he thought I could be the best player in the country and uh I looked around like somebody else had walked in the room because I mean I I just knew he wasn't talking to me and you know so uh you know he told me you know I'm doing things on the field that he had never seen before in a player things that they're not asking me to do you know you know you can run with the ball you can catch the ball you know what I mean and um and then he told the media that he thought I was the most intelligent player that did ever coach and um everybody got all excited about that I told him well he was at Arkansas in Minnesota so I don't know how excited we should be about it that is too good I can I can imagine uh coach coach Holtz making that doing that rant and asking those questions um so so you weren't very self-aware as a player you you kind of didn't know how good you were well I knew I was fast and I knew I had the ability to make people Miss um but and I guess if you're a fast you have the to make people miss and you can catch a ball that those those things can go hand in hand but you know at woodro they did what they had to do because that's the only way we had a chance of winning the game and as you can see it didn't work out but four times in three years uh but you know I never felt like that was the focus in the two years you know with Jerry fs and again I understand why um but you know so I was never in that position before where where I was a guy or you know we're going to get you 10 touches a game or seven touches a game or whatever and Lou told me that the only way I wouldn't get the ball is if they found a way to intercept the snap from Center you know if he did that he couldn't get me the ball but if the ball got to his quarterback it was going to get in my hands some kind of way and you know that kind of confidence even with that you know it literally took me a couple weeks cuz after two days he brought me in he he was bringing me in every day for a couple weeks after that and just you know just saying man look this is incredible stuff you know and I finally just said to myself you know look this old man is crazy just do just do what he says and you know and this all this all pass by and we can go back to being who we were right and that that's that's what I said to myself just go out and do everything that he asked you to do you know full speed you know what I mean and um and that's what I did man and and everything just literally took off from there it sounds to me based on what you're saying that coach Holtz saw you and kind of told you what you needed to hear right like he he could read you and could see that you know you were very talented and maybe though that you didn't have a lot of confidence and maybe you didn't really know the context of of where everything fit uh you think that's why he did he think he saw that and that's why he he spent that time on you well I I think I I was confident when I hit the field my thing is I never looked at football as a way out right I always saw my way out was get the education so coach was the one who told me I could have both and that was really the thing that opened up my mind he said Son you can have both and I had never thought about having both I've never because my mom and dad when I walked out the house man they told me there's no future in football for you boy you go up there and get that education and come on back home yeah you know what I mean so that was my mindset so when he convinced me that I could have both that's when I was like wow you know what I mean yeah so and really opened me up to okay well let me go do all this in the football field then I can go back and do my studies and you know and and it just that changed me right there because I had never thought about that I never had a conversation with anybody about having both so I want to talk about your your punt return and kick return abilities was that something you were always good at was it a natural thing or or did you have to work at it to become good no it it was I mean from the time I started playing football man I mean I can remember us you know when in the six sixth grade you know sort of lining up and doing that and I always wanted to be the guy in the back who was returning the kicks or whatever even though we didn't have no no pads on or anything of that nature I would work so hard to make sure no one even touched me you know and running around a little sixth graders you know so uh you know but even in junior high school you know I I returned puns and kicks and and you know of course you didn't get many that came to you you have to go pick them up on the ground uh but um I always found a way to return one or two if not more every year and of course once you get to high school the bigger lights on you but um you know it was always something that I felt very very comfortable doing and and um so you know to Fumble the opening kickoff my my freshman year was devastating from from a lot of point of views right because uh this is what I knew I could do right I don't know about this receiver stuff or whatever position they going to have me playing eventually but I knew I can return punts and kicks you know that was something that I thought I was very I was very comfortable doing and uh so that was a real setback for me um from a confidence standpoint returning kicks and stuff anyway but I did go in the game later on you know they had a package for me that uh they had cancelled after after the fubble but they allowed me you know they called the package and they were trying to call me back and I was like I'm not turning around somebody's gonna have to come get me out the Huddle and I end up making a big catch that kept a drive going on going so so yeah you know it it was uh it was definitely that type of thing but I always felt like returning kicks was something that I can do uh at every level that I play football yeah you talked about not having the running back mentality what but you did obviously have the Return Man mentality what what is the Return Man mentality in football like what what kind of person is the Return Man the person who would go back there and take on all comers take on the entire team sometimes you're back there and the crowds crowds cheering at you jeering at you it's got to be a certain kind of cat to to to be that guy right well yeah you know and and not trying to be funny but you have to be a little scared you know you you really have to be a little scared because you can't get back there going oh I'm just going to you know absorb all these hits you got to you got to have them ality man I don't want these guys to touch me I don't want these guys to hit me and what do I have to do to avoid that you know what I mean and you know and I I think most of the time you know I had a way of dodging the hits you know because I knew first of all I had to get up and go back into the offense and second of all you know I always knew this if if I weighed 190 and a guy hitting me weighs 220 I'm G to lose that battle Yeah every time I'm gonna lose that battle so don't try and take these guys on get what you can get and and get down but get down in a way that's that's that's positive for your team and not that you're giving up yourself but you realize I can't do it in more so let me just make sure I I get down you know and so you know look I I often say that man I I look at pun returning now and kick returning and I wonder how in the world did I do that for 17 years in NFL and well all 27 years of my foot playing football I return punts and kicks you know and um you know it's a it's a crazy thing when you think about it but you know I think you know the brave guys are the guys who get hurt are the guys who you know get the big hits there's no reason to ever take a big big hit on a pal return because you always have the the right to put your hand up and fair catch it and you know if you start running then you know you you know get you 10 yards and get your butt down yeah you know so uh so I think from my standpoint you know you know I I know that scared answer is not probably what you're looking for but it played a big part in my mentality of how to return punts so you go into 1986 and Irish there was a lot of close games that year you guys were really close I think you were five and six but but yeah I feel like four or five three or four of the losses were could way yeah and I think the first time I heard your name watching uh television was that USC Notre aame game the end of your junior year and you just really exploded onto the national stage in that in that game uh what are your memories of that game and and uh and what did is that accurate did that did it make you feel like you'd sort of arrived after that game happened yeah uh that game definitely set me up for the 87 season no doubt about it um I I don't remember what I had all purpose but I think it was over 200 yards All Purpose that that game and to have the big PP return uh at the end of the game and um I think I had a big catch in the game or whatever so uh yeah it it was a um it was a fantastic game for me you know and I I'm thankful that it was USC it was a team that we had beaten every year and that we had a streak going at that time I don't remember what it was but and certainly there was a lot of you know talk about you know about that you know let's go out and finish the year you know I think Etc was on their way to a bowl game I believe and uh so you know that was our bowl game the season was over after that and um and we knew that obviously going into the game so uh for me you know uh we didn't think that Etsy was going to kick us the ball you know I had a pretty good year returning punts and um so and they hadn't punted me the ball all all game and all of a sudden the last game The Last punt of the game for the most they punted me the ball and I don't know if you go back and look at that film I'm like jumping like oh my God I can't believe the ball is coming up it's coming my way uh so you know and uh my guys because everybody was so committed to our pun return kick return team I mean they did an incredible job and set a wall up and all I literally had to do was run well kicking the ball to you was probably one of the reasons Ted toner got fired not long after that after that game um and that was the game you guys got over the hump you know you you guys finally won a close game beat you know beat USC they were ranked and so now you're going into the offseason going into your senior year are is are things starting to come together in your head you know as as you're as the the New Year's approaching are you thinking hey I can I can have a huge year uh they're going to use me all kinds of ways what was your mentality going into that senior year well you know uh in the locker room after that game uh the late great reporter Jim Murray from LA Times uh came up to me and said that that I was going to be his front running for the Heisman next year and uh that freaked me out because literally I hadn't thought about that all year I hadn't you know I had an incredible junior year but I had thought about and no one had really mentioned that uh the noted a reporters had never mentioned my name for the Heisman my junior year so I remember going out and and asking my telling my brother hey man this guy said I was going to be his friend running for the Heisman this year and I was like cuz we had even never talked about the NFL and I was like well even if I don't win the Heisman you think somebody may want me to play in the NFL and we look at each other like nah that ain't gonna happen no that ain't gonna happen what are you talking about kid yeah and uh so we just Shrugged it off man and went about our business but things quickly changed after that because you know uh the the list for the 87 uh the top 10 players for 87 came out like after the last bowl game of the year or whatever yeah and uh and my name was you know top three four or five or whatever it was top 10 for sure and uh so we realized then that life was changing and uh the preparation for the next season had to start now uh you know we end up getting a Lords of London insurance policy and and you know all all those kind of things just to sort of you know make sure if anything happened then you know certainly I could you know recoup some cash at the deal uh but um but yeah so but you know as far as I ran track that offseason that Notre a you know so I was really trying to do everything I wanted to do and not really be so you know football conscious oh my God I gotta go run this route again and all that kind of stuff um you know and I think you know being free like that sort of you know let me go into the next season you know excited but not really with any kind of expectations of winning a Heisman or anything else you have to understand that I had never had a winning season playing football you know well I think I think maybe uh I mean maybe we went six and five Jerry's last I don't know maybe we went six and five one of those years I'm not for sure I think 84 I think you might I think 84 you might have gone seven and five six and five I think we went six and five yeah because he went to a bowl game and um and uh and lost to SMU I believe it was where I return a kick for a touchdown against in that game um yeah but you know but when we got off to such a great start my senior year I think we were seven and one or something like six- two or something like that it really seven and one yeah it you know that was all that I was focused on man you know I think we went into the pen say game we win that game I think we go to Miami with a chance to to to go play for the championship but we lose a St game so everything was off after that a very close very close game 21 to 20 oh because freaking Tony W don't pitch me the ball if he pitches me the ball I walk in well you know Tony Rice was he was still splitting time with uh with um was it andreac or what was his name he was out because of he tore his uh okay his his he broke his collarbone or something so he was out that's right that's right but um yeah so you know so I I think you know up until the pen said game there was no talk in the locker room about me winning the Heisman literally I mean even after the Michigan State game when I had those incredible two P returns back to back uh the boys then start talking about the Heisman we were all so focused on trying to win a championship uh until we lost at Penn State and after that that's all the boys talked about let's go win Timmy the Heisman let's go do this and let's go do that and I don't I can't say I didn't play Bad in Miami but I didn't have any kind of a game in Miami because you know I mean obviously they were so pumped up to play us you know we didn't get I think we lost 20 to six or something of that nature but uh uh you know it it was uh it was certainly not the the last game I wanted to have at Notre Dame uh in the regular season for sure coach Holtz really I thought used you in many different ways that year he had you you played a little bit of running back lined up a running back you were all over the field uh I remember the USC game you were all over the field in that game H but really the key to that season for you wining the Heisman is what everyone talks about are those two pun returns against Michigan State um was that something that uh was that sort of like just your day as a part returner like are were you feeling it that day what how do you explain the rare circumstance of doing two point returns well it yeah it it it's really really amazing man when you you think back on that because um it shouldn't have happened it wasn't supposed to happen yeah um the first punt was a plan um pump was a plan return return right right and I really should have far caught the ball because they were close enough to me that you know I should have I probably should have Fair caught the ball but I just said hey look I mean the defense said play you know and there was a little air the little buzz in the stadium man I was like let's try to make it happen and almost as soon as I catch the ball I have to dip you know a little bit just to get up in the into the wedge and then I was able to get you know it's like everybody ran past me almost and now I get out to the outside and you know it's me and one guy and I always felt in open field that if anybody touches me not tackles me touches me in open field then I'm I'm a quick football that's why I used should tell myself yeah and uh so I made a move on that guy and got to the end zone Now understand this there was no TV timeout uhuh right so we kick the extra point and we line up and we kick the ball off and in three plays the defense is off the field yeah so I'm literally I'm literally on the bench with oxygen mats on and I told Coach St I said coach you know you gotta you gotta you got to block this you got to block this cuz I I you know I'm dead right so we had a block on you know I mean there's no return set up yeah so so when I catches the ball when I catch the ball I say to myself run to your sideline and just you know try to run out of bounds but as soon as I got the ball I realized they had covered the field pretty good and you know so I wasn't going to be able to get to the sideline I would literally have to run you know uh horizontal to the to the field you know to to get to the sideline so I was like okay well let me just take it up in here a little bit and one guy just he he got overzealous zealous and and he went too far outside I was able to make a cut on that guy you shook him pretty good and after that it was you know now all my guys are coming back towards me for the most part right yeah so they're picking guys off behind me so now it's me and the punter yeah right yeah and you know again now if a punter touches you now you should really give give up your helmet that day uh so so you know I made a move on him and I got an his Zone you sold and I got an Ino I just flipped the ball I yeah I could I couldn't even move I was so tired but uh yeah so look I mean what's meant to be is meant to be right and that's how I look at it uh but you know that that happened on the play that I was literally supposed to fair catch again uh but you know I just chose let me get a few yards and that turned into what cut inside and all of a sudden it was me and open Phil again and uh so uh I'm thankful for it you know what I mean even though it wasn't a call return and all that uh but um you know I guess what it's meant to be it's meant to be so later on the year you get the word that you're heading to New York did you go to New York thinking you were going to win um you know you never want to put yourself in that position right to be to be that disappointed but one of my one of my my boys uh came up to me one of my teammates and he said Timmy look you're going to win the Heisman because no one is going to vote you worse than second right Gast and green may win in the west but you're gonna be second yeah and Donnie may win in the East but you're gonna be second where Donnie is gonna be third or fourth and and and he had this logic man that made perfectly perfect great analysis actually and uh and you know so I was like yeah yeah no no don't timy don't don't don't go there don't you know so uh but you know look I mean to be in that room to be in that situation um you know was wasn't it was all was incredible obviously there nothing like it is now uh but uh no that was a remarkable moment man and uh but no I I didn't not I tried not even though my boy made a lot of sense I tried to go there with because you know you shake hands with James Brown and he says you had a great year Tim and you think oh wow okay well he would know right and then you know you shake hands with with Jim Nancy well whatever happens to him you had incredible oh I didn't win it you know so you know you're it's like you know everybody you shake hands with you know so it's a nerve-wracking uh uh place to be but what a great place to be at the same time and then they say your name and and then what goes through your head well I I didn't realize at that time but I think I sort of went into shock man I went up there I couldn't say a word I I was just trying to I saw my mom and dad so I thanked them my brother I saw him at coaches and that was it that's all I could get out I wouldn't sat down after that uh but no look it's it's it's shocking man to realize that what coach hos had said to you two years prior uh had just came through that you are now the best player I'm putting up air quotes if you can't see me uh the best player in the country right and Coach coach says all the time that he didn't come to New York to see me win he came there if I lost right and uh if I didn't win the Heisman you know he wanted to be there for me and uh so uh you know it it was a amazing amazing moment but I didn't realize then but I quickly realized that winning that award changed my name right because unless I'm in church I'm I'm always announce as Heisman Trophy winner Tim Brown so your life changed after that no doubt without a doubt without a doubt so you went on to have a star studded career NFL um my producer Paul is actually uh a huge Raiders fan and he's super excited about this interview um you also played with a couple other uh Heisman Trophy winners uh on the Raiders Marcus Allen and Charles Woodson did you you guys were you guys able to form a special bond uh over having that shared experience of winning the Heisman yeah you know at one point Bo was there you know so when I got the training camp there were four Heisman Trophy winners on the roster because Bo wasn't in training camp with this but he was on the roster but um um uh plunet Jim plunet was was was in training camp with me my my rookie year for that's right a couple weeks before they cut him uh so Raiders had four four four four guys on the roster you know Desmond ended up playing with me and um uh my man out of Houston the quarterback oh gez draw a blink on him uh uh Andre where Andre W you know he was he came there for a minute so um uh well no no no where was uh we played a game where Andre W was at Detroit uh uh Barry was there Bo Marcus and myself and all five of us scored a touchdown that night wow in in a Monday night game in 1990 so um uh yeah so it was uh yeah the Heisman thing man look I mean I think you know um the Heisman I don't want to say it's a curse but if you win the Heisman and now you're in a in an NFL locker [Music] room the the ribbon that you take man the punishment that you take is Way Beyond anything that you can ever imagine what do they say what do they say to you what can they say well you you have guys who you know you have guys who are 29 30 years old who have flat out come out and tell you you better be looking I wouldn't in college in because you would have won nothing I would have you know what I mean you know you just have guys you know defensive guys a little short in the brain stem anyway I think so but uh you know so you had guys that would come up and just say crazy stuff to you and you know and um and I think that's partly why you have some guy who failed some guys who fail because the beating mental be beatings that you take in your own locker room is enough to to to discourage you from from being a good player yeah you know what I mean and uh but I think for me the best thing that happened to me I fumbled up in the kickoff in my freshman year the first time I touched the ball in NFL I returned it for a touchdown you know what I mean so you rectified the situation it put me in a situation that if I never do it again you can't say I didn't do it yeah and guess what I never did it again because right I didn't return kickoffs after my my rookie year yeah you know so it put me in a position where no one could come and say uh you you a bust you this you're that you know I mean after my first year I should have been rookie of the year they gave it to that freaking uh dancing running back up in Cincinnati Icky Woods yeah he had that little dance that's right I he barely had a thous yards that year you should you just needed to have a dance to get to win it that's the pub I know yeah well it probably would have helped if we' been in a playoffs right Tim Brown 1987 Heisman Trophy winner from the University of Notre Dame thank you so much for coming on the official Heisman Trophy podcast a fascinating account of your amazing career at Notre Dame and we thank you for coming on thank you brother appreciate you thanks for your time the official Heisman Trophy podcast streams every Wednesday during the college football season and is hosted co-produced edited and engineered by Chris Houston Paul Goldberg is the executive producer and editor special shout out to Isaac lenon and big thanks to the Heisman Trophy trust and its executive director Rob whan and associate director Tim Henning the official Heisman Trophy podcast can be found on Spotify Apple music and anywhere you listen to your favorite podcast you can also find clips of our show on Facebook Instagram Twitter and YouTube just go to @ Heisman Trophy