The Inside Tack Podcast | Ep 09 F1 on Water Toto Wolff & Ben Ainslie

[Music] and you had the the star of the show your m g g [Music] G there's lots of oddities about America's Cup it's quite difficult to beat the winner actually yeah if they've got their wits about them it's it's harder yeah I don't think in Formula 1 you would be able to ever win a single Championship if the winner would make the rules the job that you really have to do is the one in adversity yeah for sure that's when you when you have to step up I mean ultimately if you don't then you're not going to be in the job much longer I think so have lifting the trophy that moment is just so much more um fulfilling than just posting a profit in a p& this is supposed to be a half hour chat between the three of us but I I need to sort of rush the first bit otherwise I feel it's going to take a very long time because I want to ask you about your experience on the boat today so you became a cycla for one day and were able to experience this America's cut boo Toto in all its anger out on the ocean waves alongside Ben who was helming and George who was helming as well for a period what was what was it like it was very impressive but I felt it's going to be um how this is all structured here and build up the you know even getting the health and safety instruction is uh I think you're safer on on your bat than uh kite surfing on some random beach somewhere so that was very impressive to th it's good to hear it's good to hear the processes are right no yeah the processes are right so you have everything in place to win okay um and then then going on the board but you can feel at least I've been around many sports and I've seen team setups and uh the operations and that looks really Top Notch and then going on the board was just pleasure I was one of the cyclists but um like semic cyclists I could could take easy if I wanted to so I had I looked around and looked at the foils working and the impressive past and that was good there's a drone camera shot of you that's literally looks like you're absolutely living your best life and having the best fun I mean did it what did it feel like I did actually know it's so weird we travel around the world in um in Formula 1 and we do lots of fun events and and stuff and lots of sport but this is what I haven't done before um I've been on hobby cats and lasers and Cat surfing and flight boards and all of that but that's nothing against going 40 knots in eight wind in eight knots wind how does that even go so and then having the involvement obviously in the development part of the boat with with you guys yeah was a was something did you feel a little bit proud yeah you know your team helping us along this journey and creating that crowd yeah yeah obviously but yeah I do but also being part of the crew in the boat you know now I could I can put faces to the to it and the cyclists um sometimes you you know you you get a lot of media attention obviously the driver gets um but it's a team effort and I like how they've been pushing each other you know come on give it all and I see the Baseline of you know we're pedling along at 250 wats and now we go 500 in the cornering which I didn't know that the cornering was so important yeah very very nice afternoon what about the performance Ben performance was performance was good I I think maybe maybe there's a little bit of misunderstanding in terms of of the cycore output requirement but what is that mean was more sufficient I don't know that's what you said to me I wasn't sure yes when I was supposed to put the power down but when you did put the power down I think it was he need clear Direction come on I need clear Direction I also I get clear directions I know what to do and not to do and here I thought I'm not feeding in actually but then I did those fun Peak ws and then they said well that was really nice you fed in a lot but only like for 10 seconds yeah I mean it's like you said it's impressive the power these these athletes put down how does that do you think that's quite nice in a way that it's very similar to Formula 1 the technology is obviously absolutely critical but there is other than the drivers like you said is more of a human element in terms of the the athletic performance which is which is driving the overall performance that's quite neat in a way I like because I like team sports but obviously in Motor Racing you're you're alone in the car and everybody works in the background but what I like in in sailing what I've experienced today is that you're driving it um but you're one part of the equation um then there's you know the other guys that doing the navigation and some of the streaming some of the sales some of the sales and then the four C so you're all in this together Everybody Plays its role and you're all in the boat together which is a was a new experience and um that is that is different to Formula One Toto what would be another new experience for you is the idea that this cup for all its bizarre nature runs from one year to the next three and you only have this one moment sort of every three maybe every four years to really show what you're all about and what all the effort and Works been moving towards what what's your sort of assessment of that with Formula 1 the seasons roll into one another very quick and obviously you're always looking ahead constantly but it's a different approach so what's your assessment of of how the Cup teams have to behave in the leadup to competition and ahead of what we are now walking into which is the business end of it I think definitely there's lots of oddities about America's Cup it's clearly the peak of sailing the high-tech the the best s ERS uh most professional setups I mean this is Formula One On Water um but then the winner gets to make the rules that's interesting aspect it's quite difficult to beat the winner actually yeah if they've got their wits about them it's it's harder yeah I don't think in Formula One you would be able to ever win a single Championship if the winner would make the roles but it is what it is you you know you have to just U be better uh and then every you know this notion of every four years a little bit like the Olympics on the football World Championship is a difficult one because you never know where you stand you're setting these targets and uh is it good enough or not and then you could be starting sailing and you're just far off or you're right in the game and that can certainly lead to some frustration I guess yeah what does it feel like for you Ben because you have got that you know it's a totally different approach to how Toto would operate operate with the Formula 1 team isn't it it is this this moment in time that happens and this buildup this huge Crescendo to to that moment yeah it's very much in stages you know setting getting the rules and setting the strategy working through that strategy trying to execute on that and then this period we're in now where no one's everyone's trying to you know jostle for position figure out where they stand in the pecking order no one really knows until we start getting some more official racing or practice racing and then still in that period it might be that the the teams that are performing at in the early rounds not necessarily as you get to later rounds because there's still a lot of performance left to to gain and the conditions will undoubtly change as well we know that here in Barcelona it's really changeable weatherwise so there's a lot of variables there's a lot of as they say golf left in the hole so got to keep pushing hard last time out in New Zealand there was obviously a relationship that had begun there between Mercedes and and inos brania that has evolved how has that evolved how has that relationship at the risk of sounding like Ron a therapy couch not the relationship between you two necessarily but how is the collaboration between the Mercedes team and the sailing team really evolved over that period of time would you say Ben and I we don't need any uh uh coun counseling therapy because there's a lot of romance in our relationship I think bit romance romance a bit of romance um but sus and you always nearby so that's good to know the thing is that you know at the beginning I guess we the impares came from from gym and that it make it made a lot of sense but putting Sailors together with motor racing people isn't maybe the same isn't intuitively the thing you would do and I think it needed some adjustment time before it really before it really clicked and uh well all of us are trying to do the best possible work and and to be successful with the project for us it was interesting because some of our people weren't that excited anymore more about Formula One they wanted to do something else uh and then we were able to really good people to to give them into the put them into the saling projects is a good good way also in learning about you know different things yeah I guess it's an exciting place to put your resource isn't it to to try out different things yeah so we are pretty Limited in what we're allowed to do in Formula One outside of let's say the the regulations but the sheer fact that you're putting people on hydrodynamics when previously they would only look at down Force suddenly that need needs to lift actually is is interesting and then in formul one we do apportionment so we we can have people that work in Po and that's beneficial for our cost cap so we did some of that but in all Truth truthfulness at the end you want to give it the maximum maximum power and within America's Cup we ended up with a very very big and strong core team um so I think this is just it needs to be done and Ben from your side where would you say the biggest sort of impact has come from from the Formula 1 team well firstly you know we've learned a huge amount you know across the board from the partnership so thank thanks again and I think maybe in a in a smaller way there's been some reciprocal learning definely just you know the the the scale of the organizations is really what sticks out you know America's Cup team typically is around about a tenth of the scale of Formula 1 team team on on particularly on the technical program and so we're inevitably we're a bigger technical organization now as through this partnership and then it's been about really utilizing that that resource and putting it to where it matters because it'd be easy to go off and start looking under all of the the rocks and and getting distracted and that's really been what we've tried to focus on and and some key areas you know really fluids and simulation a little bit manufacturing as well and reli reliability which is so key in your game and it's the same for us you know we have the fastest boat in the world but if we can't get it around the racetrack when it when it matters then that's no good to us so yeah a huge amount of learning it's been a really really for me it's been a fascinating process and what about the commerciality of it as well because I think Formula One is a hop skip and a jump ahead isn't it of where the cut the cup would look to Formula 1 as a leader in in the commercial approach I mean even Toto with you know the recent life cycle of Formula 1 with the drive to survive peace and a few other ways that it's really been broadening its its audience base I mean what do you think the key lessons you could impart for Ben and the team are on the commercial Factor because that's how it's got to survive isn't it moving forward in this modern era where you know every they're clambering for space Sports I think formula one has been been around for 70 years and that is must not be forgotten uh but in the same way the cup was around for longer um but putting on a great show it's all about the entertainment factor and I think Formula 1 has been putting on a great show uh I think when you when you look back at the you know 2020 2021 especially the big controversies that they existed and at the same time we were the only spot that was actually putting was able to putting something together whil everybody else couldn't in co uh people were watching at home Netflix at the same time um got got quite some traction and interest and you had the the star of the show your mate gun G G i' I've written a forward in his book uh because he's love it he's hilarious he's probably and but that but that but you know that on a serious note you know some those teams survival relies on the entertainment Factor too right they have to be visible for sponsors to be attracted to keep those teams going which keeps Formula One going but it comes down to being authentic G is authentic he doesn't talk any any differently in in real life um and he clearly was the main standout person for for that team but I guess that the younger drivers that came in they have lots of social media activity Liberty allowed that because previously you know we it was we were very Lim Limited in what kind of content we could broadcast from the pedok and all of that came together and made the sport grow faster and bigger and mo most interestingly very different new audiences so young females is something that the sport was particularly weak in and now the strongest gr growing audience is um women between 15 and 35 um so that is that's interesting damn I'm out of that bracket never mind just but but Ben your take on that as well I mean you have been long campaigning for the modernization not at the expense of the tradition but in order to sort of Take It Forward what what needs to happen yeah it's it's that's really the example for us to to see what can be done if a if a sport is properly managed and commercialized so you have you know the balance between the the the the F1 circuit if you like and then the teams and for it to really work both have to I think but is there an appetite is there an appetite though within cut world within the sailing world within the teams like our one in pushing that conversation forward so that these changes do happen because when it happens you see it in in sale GP you really see it which is very similar to the F1 model where we have the league that is that is neutrally managed effectively to to to operate the commercial best commercial interests of the of the of the event the league and then the teams which are now independently owned but in in a franchise model and that is really starting to get some traction commercially the cup has amazing history and and Prestige as a brand but it doesn't have that neutral management it doesn't have the continuity it's like you said it might be every three four five years till the next event depending on who wins it and I think really whoever wins this next event or certainly in the near future they need to sit down and get the different stakeholders together and say right what's a you know 10 20 year vision for this event because again it's got a huge amount of potential it's just not realized can we talk Toto about the business of sport I think you're the perfect person to have this conversation with because you're a huge sports fan you're massively passionate about sport but you came into sport this way VIA business has your philosophy your business philosophy evolved or changed over however many years as a result of how you need to react to sport I feel like there are so many more variables or would would be so many more variables within the sporting context that it's not just the results thing there's a whole other bigger piece there especially the emotional bit so has your sort of philosophy evolved in that way I think I at heart I was always a racer was a young racing driver couldn't afford it any more and went into finance and when I came back success on track always stood more important for me by a mile A Thousand Miles than the financial success related there too and I think you that's the mindset you need to have um now obviously we all we all living in a real world um and and being successful on on financially is also important particularly if you're running a sports franchise but we were able to to combine that in a way we were more successful we are growing the revenue side the governing body changed the the landscape by introducing a cost cap which was good so we were not outspending each other anymore um but what unites what unites people with sports is the emotion like you say um because it's in a way on a Sunday afternoon it's the most important not important topic you can go into go into heavy arguments um with um competitors and fans among themselves but on the Monday it's maybe PP talk and it doesn't really negatively or positively affect your life but it creates a lot of emotion that and that is something that only sports or or music or or or theater or film can do but you don't get that kick in an office and have you become sort of less or more rational with age because I often wonder from a from a business perspective you're making and you're basing things on rational decision making sometimes with sport it's so unpredictable that you know those things can go out of the window and it's a gut instinct that takes you forward I mean what do you think to that I I think cut instinct is something important because there's more um cells and neurolinks that's going up this direction and not the other way um but when you when you are in sports you never change I would give up every every scent of profit for Success at any time and when you tell that to when you tell that to normal business people they think you've lost in mind you're grown up adult uh you have to look after your company what you want to achieve is uh solid cash flows and then you're talking about on track success who cares but we do because we are sports people and the the onra success and the Victory and have lifting the trophy that moment is just so much more um fulfilling than just posting a profit in a p&l I mean you're you're entering into this world aren't you Ben big time with cell GP with cup life you know moving from from being athlete to business person don't change yeah no but it's it's really important is it because do you actually have to bearing in mind you've got that mindset you've always had that mindset of a professional athlete like Toto's saying actually that you should you should stick with that that's that's actually a really huge Advantage well you're not you're not going to lose that mindset just because you're not necessarily competing on the water or competing in a race car you're still competing even if you know we seen photo a lot with the emotion of being there on the radio to the guys and everyone else and the team living that moment even if they're not in a racing car or not on a racing boat there's a lot goes into these organizations it's very hard for people I think fans to re they look at the car they look at the boat to realize what goes on behind the scenes the amount of effort required and for anyone to work in Formula 1 and work in America's Cup the hours that are required you can't just be doing that for the paycheck you've got to love it you got to have that determination to be part of a winning organization like Mercedes has been for so long and I can understand the pain for you with the dominance and then suddenly being on the back foot you want to be back there where where you and your team deserve to be it's certainly the the pressure is a is a factor because so many people work hard for so little reward and you got to acknowledge that that we are so lucky blessed that we we're in such a situation but we work s days a week 356 days how many days are in the year5 days 300 yeah less nine less I work nine less holidays no but you be working all day seven days a week There's no day where you're not on um but it's just on the other side I haven't worked a single day because it's what we love to do uh it comes natural and that is something which in always need to cherish because that's not a given but does it feel like you're now I mean you're there's absolutely no way you you sort of have the mentality of a startup but it feels like to actually go again and to sort of come back from being out of the mix which is you know where you were for for a while which probably felt like Ben said incredibly painful does is it quite galvanizing to sort of say sort of does it create a Siege mentality at a moment where it's most required I think you need to what I'm trying to have a long-term perspective and um as as running the team and being a corner want to look back in 20 years and say there was we won many championships but that doesn't necessarily mean that we winning every single one and we've pushed the boundary quite far already uh by doing eight in a row so since then we finished third and second so it's not that we've completely lost it but there was just another team which which was much better but in comparison to the other our other competitors we were still more successful some of those competitors haven't won a championship since 15 or 20 years you must not forget so I'm trying to bring some kind of um um stability in there and that means if we get it wrong we will improve if we get it wrong we will improve and this is a normal cycle and we'll feel very difficult at at times but is important to come back up and I'm sure we will and look back and say that was difficult years sometimes you said on the on the siege but it's just part of sports you have to admit you can't win any Champion any any year every year championship there's no sport him in the world that won every single year they participated un unless you quit we don't want to quit and perspective right yeah but I think and you will get it back and you will win I know you can't say that but it it will happen that will be probably the most rewarding victory that you and the team have had maybe other than the first Victory you you've had this you've had this haven't you I mean you've you've had serious adversity with the last couple of cup campaigns and it's it's bloody hard work it's amazing how shallow people can be yeah but you have to you have to BCE you know it's not even holding back I mean it's literally but you have to bounce back yeah you do well what else you're going to do you're going to put your dig your head in the sand and but as a leader as a leader how important is it to step up when that when that happens because like you say Toto when it's all Rosy and it's all great everyone's on that Journey with you but actually the job that you really have to do is the one in adversity yeah for sure that's when you when you have to step up I mean ultimately if you don't then you're not going to be in the job much longer than I think so yeah it's but it's tough because everyone's frustrated and you know but somehow you have to find the balance between oh you know it can't be it's okay guys we were just unlucky it needs to be a reality check this isn't good enough we've got to get our act together but at the same time you can't throw the toys out of the pram because you won't get the best out of people so find balance there to find so next few months um what do you think is going to make the difference because we know with F1 a season goes goes through a season and you have upgrades coming all the time with the cup there is a there is a similar program you do have a program of upgrades and developmental work going on behind the scenes over you know it goes on for a very long time doesn't it over a sort of 8we period or so so what will make the difference in the next few months to success or failure really from what I've seen it's quite close on the water between the teams and to answer your question what will make the difference really the teams that can continue that progression in performance across the range wind wind strengths and sea States and that's that's really the key to this period now we're going to start doing some informal practice racing next month and then we have end of August we have the final warm-up event that that final warm-up event will really send the set the Benchmark of of really which teams are performing when and there's not a lot of time after that to really recover if if you're on the back foot so these next few weeks are absolutely critical I know what it would mean to Ben to win this thing what would it mean to you Toto and the Mercedes partnership because there's this common phrase in the America's Cup which is there is no second um so if we were to October the 21st or whatever it is lift up that massive 120 kilo old mug let's not get ahead of ourselves no let's get ahead of ourselves what would that what would that what would that feel like as a combined effort I think in a way you you need to visualize these things also only when you can visualize you can actually make them happen but you mustn't talk too much about it because you you destroy that visualization um it's so difficult I mean winning the up uh with the set of regulations that do exist it's tremendously difficult and you can see the the pattern you know Team New Zealand how many times did they win it they're going for well they've won it four times now they're going for three in a row three in a row you can see how difficult it is and I think you are the underdog um uh we are We Are The Underdogs if I can say we in this project because um you're on the back foot but it's just feels good to you know if I started to follow America's Cup last time around when we were trying to help out because that's what we did no more than this and I'm sure that when when when the event starts going I will be all in um um and uh there's not not a lot more than sheering that I can do you would yeah you can get on the boat now now now we know we've got you lined up as a cycl that's it you're done we'll send you a fitness program yeah got think I can two months to get there you got a sh I can get the peak wats but not the endurance but no I I guess I will be cheering my I can give you more contribution by cheering than by being actually actively involved we expect nothing less thank you so much both of you thank you join us for the performance people podcast every week for the highs lows lessons and stories from people like this lot Michael Johnson some days what I would see is a person who is a shell of what I use could be Eddie Hearn we don't operate in a business that's dangerous but we just operate in one where you got to sleep with one eye open mo Farah it couldn't get any harder than what I've gone through and at that point I just kind of just went for it Paula Radcliffe you can only control yourself Susie wolf and Toto did once Len me to a donkey every Tuesday wherever you get your podcasts hello performance people listeners my name is Freddy Carr and I host a podcast called the inside Tech which is a podcast that follows the British americ Cup team in EOS britania as we get ready for the 37th America's Cup down here in Barcelona we also follow the youth and the first ever women's America's Cup we would love you to like And subscribe to our podcast follow us on all your social media channels as we get ready for our sporting challenge of a lifetime [Music]