Episode 2 | Preventing Teacher Burnout with Dr Martin Brunet & Mr. P

welcome to the TTS talking teachers podcast with me your guest host Mr P now in each episode I'm going to be joined by topic experts from different industries from across the globe offering exclusive insights inspiration and guidance to support you with the highs and lows of teaching so in today's episode I'm delighted to introduce Dr Martin brunette as today's guest Martin how are you doing today yeah good thank you thank thank you so much for coming and joining us so before we do get start and get into the conversation for anyone who uh doesn't know you isn't aware of your work would you like to give us a quick sort of introduction about yourself yeah so I'm a GP um I work three days a week as a GP in my practice near Guilford and then I spend probably a day a week otherwise teaching GPS particularly GP trainees writing talking about mental health and other things yeah and recovering from the rest of the week we were just saying just before we started the episode we were almost going tit fortat as to who's got it worse at the minute yourself who works within the NHS or uh me as a teacher uh I am also tempted to sort of just use this podcast time to just have time with a GP and go through everything go through everything got a list that I've been trying to speak to someone about um but no so today we are the sort of focus is around we're going to first of all start around sort of burnout yeah and which I know is a uh an issue that affects so many teachers um I think research or the numbers have just come out again this week or in the past week about the retention in in education so for the second year running it's at a record high of around 40,000 teachers leaving the profession um the workforce has grown by 200 which is worrying um but not a surprise it's not you know I don't think there's anything that's happened in the past year that's improved that retention and I think for a lot of teachers burnout is one of the reasons why uh so many of us leave because I find the amount of messages I get from teachers that end up leaving the profession to go to um lesser paid jobs but they'll say it's just a better quality of of of life so not the teaching is particularly well paid well no no it's not but um yeah yeah so if we start off I mean what what would you say is there a particular type of person that you find gets burn out or is it every everyone has a potential no there absolutely is and interestingly the sort of person that gets burned out is often the person that at least thinks they're the sort of person to burn out yeah um so when I see people with burnout who have actually burnt out and collapsed in a heap they're often very bewildered they're often what's happened to me I'm not the sort of person to get depressed or get anxious is is what they often say and that's because they're generally very strong people yeah um they're people who when the tough when the going gets tough they just pedal Harder They just try harder they they often set high standards they want to do things well they care about doing things well they care about what they're doing they might be quite vocational in doing it and they've sort of bought into this idea that as long as you're strong enough you'll be all right yeah um and yet you know I don't like thinking of anyone a weak person but if you imagine what a weak person might look like they wouldn't actually take on enough to burn out if they whatever we mean by weak so it's strong people that take on too much and often don't notice the signs and then it's like they fall off a cliff and suddenly goes wrong so and it's often the sort of person that cares about what they're doing you know so why do people go into teaching usually because they want to make a difference you know they want to care yeah so it's often people in a a a sort of a caring type profession who are potentially more vulnerable and they they also potentially someone who gets burned out is maybe a little bit vulnerable to criticism or self-criticism in other words they set themselves really high standards and if they're not meeting those standards then they beat themselves up about it they find it hard to say no find it hard to delegate um and ultim perfectionist yeah very often perfectionists yeah and so you sort of described it there that for a lot of people it sort of comes on them without them realizing in yeah so are there any signs to be aware of to look out for in that in that buildup before you know to to avoid yeah because it often is a bit like a cliff and when someone crashes then it's like my goodness all of a sudden I'm having a panic attack or I can't face going to work I can't open my emails so beforehand I feel like there's a long Plateau where you're still functioning you're probably not performing as well as you do normally but you're still doing very well um before the cliff Edge yeah and yeah spotting those signs is key so they'll be different for different people I think a sense of being overwhelmed is probably an in a sense you might have where you know maybe you're looking at the week and just thinking how am I going to get through it when am I going to do that prep how am I going to do that marking what you know I've got this to do I've got that to do and where do I put it all and that sense of panic you might feel so you might get that you might get sort of compassion fatigue you know you're Norm you'd be really kind with people but you just were irritated by them um or that other staff member surely never um so it might be irritability it might be you've been a bit tety it might be you're just it's funny you know even on a day-to-day basis we all have our sort of tells our shows of when we're a bit stressed I know you know if you asked anyone at my work asked me how can they tell if I'm stressed I just I move quicker through the practice you know I walk faster and I I barely stop now that's just on that day right but we'll have tells that we're getting stressed and it might be irit might be not sleeping well you know waking up in the middle of the night and thinking over lesson plans or worrying about this pupil that pupil not being able to get back to sleep sometimes it's actually I need that bottle like glass of wine when I get home in an unhealthy way sometimes it can be how much we drinking can be a sign yeah actually that is cuz there's a I don't know what the statistics are but there is a a real correlation between teachers and how much they drink alcohol um I got told off actually because I made a meme on one of my pages about like drinking a wine or whatever it was and someone messaged me going you you don't realize just how big the problem is yeah uh in correlation with with that yeah we can always joke you know joke about you know Jin clock and all of that sort thing but actually yeah if you know alcohol in moderation is fine but alcohol I need drink you know since I had a GP traine once that said her journey home was half an hour and she said she thinks that saved her from being alcoholic CU when she was leaving work she needed a drink she by the time she'd calmed down she was okay yeah yeah but um that can be unhealthy and so what other the what would you say are things that can help us sort of not get to that Cliff Edge so you know if we can recognize things what sort of what can we put in place to maybe help us not get to that point so I think there's individually and then maybe we could look at what a school do well so I think individually I mean we are actually good as humans at taking on stress and sometimes we thrive in a crisis so I don't think we should think that any stress is a bad thing no no um but sustainability particularly through the week I think is really important and not just just making your life sustainable with the holidays we came you need to feel you got some breathing space in your week and that might be at a weekend or it might be you know a day a week when you you don't do any school work after school and you go and do things that you enjoy doing um just making sure there's enough time for family for friends for things that are really important there's often things that are they're never urgent but they're important to us are the ones that get squeezed out absolutely yeah that might be time with family it might be exercise it might be doing something creative yeah so making sure we got that space is really key um because if everything's jammed then we're we're in a bit of trouble yeah I sometimes think about have you got enough space to breathe in your week yeah and it's hard because I think for teachers we've just got so much on our plate we find ourselves unable to give ourselves that time so I suppose that then leads us on to the workplace yeah culture of what what you know sort of leadership should be looking at doing so that teachers feel they can have that time yeah so there's there's two aspects really one is making sure that teachers are allowed have that time don't feel guilty that if they you if they spend any time looking after themselves that they're somehow there's a culted thing with that in teaching though I don't know if it's the same within the the uh Healthcare but there is I talk about all the time this sort of teacher m ISM mhm that you do get some teachers who not necessarily brag or they might just moan about I work more hours than everyone else and there's almost this acceptance that you've got to work yourself to the point and I think the danger with that because we all work differently and some people can handle it but it almost gets projected on teachers uh that it's that that's what we should be doing so if you seeing a teacher who seems to be eat sleep drink repeat teaching all the time up until God knows and and you you compare yourself to that um and I think we've got to change that mentality because um as I've said previously I think the best resource in the classroom is the teacher yeah um but I feel for a lot of teachers they'd love to give themselves that time but just don't know or don't feel they C they can because the work the the the sort of school expectations as well can almost Force teachers to feel like they've got to work themselves to that point yeah yeah no that that can be a real Challenge and things like you know how do you handle emails at weekends and all of that can be a real challenge I think one thing I think has a really big impact especially within education and health but potentially in any profession is also moral issues so moral distress is something that really interests me which is where we're asked to do something in a way that's against our values right and and I see it as a bit like a magnifier that can either multiply the load that you're feeling or if it's if you got it right actually reduce it so so you can actually carry a big capacity and Thrive with it so and I I think there are external things that can cause moral distress and then internal things in a school so external things would be where for instance the system is letting a child down you know that they've got a big safeguarding issue but you can't get them assessed yeah yeah you know they need an ehcp and it takes two or three years to get one um you're distraught about the family setup because you know It's upsetting the child and you can't change it which I think for a lot of teachers that's become such a bigger issue in the past few years given everything that's going up cost a living crisis um I think the send issues in so many schools so that point there of not getting diagnosis or just not having the budget for support so I know there's so many children who are within maybe a mainstream setting that teachers it just it's out of our hand we just can't give the children the necessary support and uh and that must yeah I I know that has such a impact on on teachers mental health it it's a big issue and it's a tricky one because it's not one that you or the senior leadership canar um and then you've also got some external things where maybe an education center has told you you must teach in this way and it's against your beliefs with education that can ALS frustration um so then the question is well what can the what can you do in the school because you can also have moral distress in a work environment so for instance cynicism bullying gossip yeah you know leaders you know being unkind to you know teachers and the other way around um that all adds a huge load to M and I think for people outside of Education they don't fully appreciate how much that can happen in schools and can go on yeah um you know it's like at this point we're recording this beginning of June just simple things like uh you know what the staff list is going to be like for next year and the rumors start yeah and that can have a huge because you know if you're unsure of what's going to happen What year group you're going to be in and and again I hear stories of how some senior leaderships can really play into that as a creating that sort of fear Within the staff which I just don't I don't get I'm very lucky in my school like my senior leadership team are incredible and I feel so fortunate in that they've been so accommodating with me and everything that I've gone on to do but some of the stories you hear about leadership teams um there was one where um the leadership teams were sitting in with teachers on their PPA mhm to actually monitor what the teachers were doing in their PPA and I just feel like for me teachers are at their best when they feel valued and trusted and that was just an example of how it screams yeah we don't trust you because in another school you'll have teachers who are allowed to take the PPA at home yeah so how within one education system can things be so varied or you might have a senior leadership who joins you for your PPA in a supportive I'm part of the team you know let me help you out and and that's utterly different isn't it so it's all um I think you and things I mean it's interesting the class allocation each year it's a big deal for for teachers and for pupils and if that's communicated really well and you know it's fair then actually you know that that's great um you know if if gossip starts getting out and rumors and you feel like well the last teacher that went and spoke to the Head teacher gets their way and the you know then that creates real issues so I think the culture in a school if you have a school where your culture is we don't gossip and you know that actually no one gossips and gossip is you know really not you know countercultural to the values of that school you're going to have a school where actually teachers you know Thrive even though it's tough I mean you know it's a tough tough job yeah but you can have another school the workload is the same and yet you've got a gossip culture and everyone's so but can gossip ever be a good thing proper gossip I'd say no no um banter you know humor yeah you know not taking ourselves too seriously yeah that could be really good um but yeah proper gossip no it's just where it's there's anterior motive yeah or it's just to undermine yeah exactly yeah or to be in the know it forms cleaks doesn't it yeah so what impact do you feel ofstead have with moral distress huge yeah so there's it's really interesting I because our equivalent is the Care Quality commission yeah um and hasn't been around as long hasn't been as as awful um and I was doing some reading up about CQC years ago and came across some research about ofad being a bit like um I thing called the panop right so panopticon was a Phil um 19th century um polymath called Jeremy benam came up with this idea of a prison called a panopticon and the prison was like a donut and all the cells looked into the middle of the donut and they all had glass walls on the inside so you could look into every cell yeah then you had a courtyard in the was the Hall of the donut and right in the middle was a guard Tower and the guard could from that Vantage Point see any prisoner they wanted at any time right and the papers were there was some qualitative research saying actually that's what it feels like for teachers feels like you can be spotted at any time and it creates a real Culture of Fear oh absolutely um which is just so destructive so you have a lot of anxiety among um senior leadership team of you know anytime we could we could be caught out there come strike will it be fair will it not be fair and then that then bounces down to the rest of the staff because they're under pressure to you know to perform and it's and it's really hard I think for senior leadership teams to not put that pressure on teachers because ultimately it's the senior leadership team's heads on a plate if it doesn't go well um so how hard it must be to not put that pressure but by putting that pressure on it doesn't really help teachers does it absolutely and it's such a shame because you could have um you know you you need to make sure schools are doing a good job absolutely you could do that in a supportive way that you know ultimately could lead to change if schools are not changing but you could do it in so much better way and you know teachers have been saying that for years but it's just not politically been acceptable enough to to bring change which is well yeah awful well we've seen it recently the the numerous pieces of evidence coming out against getting rid of those onew judgments and the government were like no we're going to keep them because it gives them a tagline to say that they've had a positive impact yeah and you know the fact that that you have to have a report that talks about the risk of death well yeah it's just in itself utterly shocking you know there shouldn't be anything that risks you dying you know in a school no I know I think the thing that I think that was really that struck a cord for a lot of teachers and and School staff with the Ruth Perry case was that I think so many of us could understand how you could get to that that that point and um and I felt incredibly inspired to ensure that changes and that doesn't need to be the case so just going back to the equivalent with you s as a GP what did you say it was called the the Care Quality commission so from your knowledge of both yeah what are the diff main differences or what do you think a AA need to change to be more like is it is it a decent system it's got some of the same problems I think I mean we still have the one word judgments um but it's I don't think it's been quite as Draconian applied and hav't been going for as long either so most practices have had you know one or maybe two CQC inspections since it came about so and I think a huge difference for GPS is most GPS are a partnership model so I'm one of um eight Partners right ultimately if we get a bad judgment it's us all of us together right um whereas a head teacher is them and they usually lose their job you know we a bad judgment actually it's our business you know it's miserable but you know no one can actually sack us right because that's that's a totally different business model we're all kind of self-employed it's a bit of a peculiar model for GPS but you don't have that threat whereas you know often Phil head teachers must feel a bit like Premier League football managers are can lose a job at any you know that would be fine if you were paid like they were yeah yeah yeah um so it's it's very cool I think and it needs really needs to and and you know Ruth Perry has really highlighted this but but it's clearly the tip of the iceberg um and you know it's not just suicide it's a moral distress going back to what you were saying there because so much of what you judged on with ofstead so much of it is outside of your control as well you know so the distress of like having a judgment passed on you when your hands are tied with so many aspects of it um so I mean what would you like to see change what would you you know if you could so i' I'd like to see it supportive I mean a really good ofstead in inspection with a fair inspector who's valuing what you're doing can actually be a a morale boost you know so it doesn't have to be a bad thing yeah to to to be fair my school had ofstead probably about six weeks ago and compared to some of the this is what really frustrated me is we had what you've just said there of what it should be like was what our exper was um yet within the same week some of the horror stories I heard from schools so that inconsistency I think is one of the biggest issues because I'm not going to Tar every inspector with the same brush and say the're horrible terrible people because the ones we had were really really supportive but it's just a shame you've not got that across the board and I think because you've not got that across the board that's what creates more of that fear because even if you've just got one terrible inspector Within 100 there's still a small chance you might get them and so that creates that fear the whole fear for everyone and that's the challenge so I think I mean for mental health and teachers the one getting rid of the one word judgment would really help' be massive change oh absolutely and then it would be more supportive and and what's a shame is it's often seemed yeah but offer is there for the parents well you know as a parent I mean my children are grown up now but wouldn't I want the teachers in the school to have good mental health would they be better at teaching my children well absolutely if they do um and you know that they enjoy what they're doing and they're not leaving so you know for parents surely we want teachers to be in a good place well I think ofstead it should come into schools to focus on that sort of come into schools to focus on the retention of the teachers and and sort of question you know what how are you doing things is that necessarily the best you know if you're visiting a school because I went I visited a school that was deemed outstanding and the turnover of stuff at that school is through the roof and you're just going that can't you can't have a school that's turnover it's not quite right so I think if ofstead were to put more of a focus on how can we and it's hard you know ofstead will say well you know we ask about well-being but for me that's quite hypocritical when they're one of the reasons it's going it's as you know workload and presses through the roof um so yeah so so I'd love to see more of a focus on supporting teachers helping teachers get a better work life balance um setting you know boundaries with things which is something else we we should talk about with in terms of burnout so how do you feel teachers can effectively put boundaries in place yeah to support their mental health so I I think there's a an interesting balance here because definitely people who burn out often need to learn how to say no yeah well did before when you were talking about the signs of burnout it was that that's the first thing like teachers innately have that they just can't say no yeah I always I'm sure this is the same with the NHS I always feel that like with with that job we do it's got to a point now where the system uh that that that the sort of a n nature we have as teachers to be supportive our dedication our Goodwill is almost weaponized against you to work to that point yeah I think I think a lot of that depends on on the culture within the school the school so it certainly potentially can be um and I think you know it's interesting to think why do we not say no sometimes so sometimes it's just because it's in our nature that we struggle to do that sometimes it's because we don't want to let go yeah um and it's you know we're too maybe a little bit too controlling over something we don't want to let go and sometimes when we let go someone else steps in and even does it better um sometimes it's cuz there's a culture where you're not allowed to but I do think it's important when you say no that that there remains kindness in in saying No Yeah because sometimes you know with burnout it can be well I've got to look after myself and the danger then is you become very internally looking and and potentially selfish and just you know say no in an unkind way and no I've got to look after myself and and actually not only is that very irritating for everyone else but then you you're starting to go outside your values that really matter so you might be saying no but adding to your own moral distress because you're you're not being the person that you want to be yeah yeah so it's kind of I think kindness kindness is tremendously helpful for for mental health the whole way around and I don't mean running around doing kind Acts or you know when people bake cakes but not all of us have got the ability or the time but just being kind you know smiling to your ta being kind to the SLT when you do give feedback and say look I'm not feeling supported or you know to do it in a kind way rather than in a an angry way um and SLT being kind yeah and that just becomes infectious um I think when we're kind to other people people you know even when you drive to school or drive to work just being kind to other Road Road users it actually helps us to be kinder to ourselves as well and it's just and it's free and cheap and easy pay it forward time yeah cuz I think for a lot of teachers because I was speaking to a friend of mine who's a head teacher and he well he he was sort of Deputy for a number of years the head teacher left so alongside another deputy they they became joint heads and he were saying the thing that surprised him most about being a leader in a school or head teacher was just how incredibly lonely it was and so what is there any advice for potentially any head teachers or just teachers to to be aware of what how can we combat that how can we I think it's really important for all teachers to be aware of for the head it is pry lonely and I feel very privileged you know being a partner that's one of eight of us yeah um whereas a head it really is just them so I think be aware that that's how it feels and be aware that you know when there's a a complaint or you know parents very Cross or angry you know that it's usually the head that's having to deal with that yeah um so I think yeah be be kind to your head teachers but that doesn't mean you have to do and say everything that they ask for you doesn't mean you have to put up with being bullied if that's at but it's yeah it it is potentially yeah it's quite lonely because it's very a very narrow pyramid at the top at the top yeah I think SLT supporting each other really good communication is really key and is it do you think it's important to have people outside of Education that you can reach out to for a head teacher or just maybe just for any teacher you know because I find I find there's been a real change in attitude towards teachers uh and and sort of this job itself has really been devalued over the past few years in the media especially and I think again that moral maybe it could be moral distress of you know how teaching is perceived outside of Education can become incredibly frustrating I'll tell you the line you know any anytime I make a video where I'm questioning or ranting and argu you ranting yeah the typical typical oh must be that hard when you've got 13 weeks off yeah uh you know you only work from 9 till three you know that's and I think that in itself can have a massive impact on teachers mental health or I think so I think I suppose you get might get it the same as a being a doctor well you you do as a GP what I think I think there is an overlap because GPS and teachers are often bashed in the Press y um yeah and yet our core users if I can use that term are still very very appreciative so you know our patients in our practice give such lovely feedback the vast majority of the time you know of course we're not immune to the odd complaint and getting the odd thing wrong similarly with teachers and and one reason why I would say sometimes as a teacher no matter how tired you are you might want to go to the school fair at a weekend is because when you go to the school fair you meet the 98% of parents who love the school appreciate what you're doing are really glad to see you and actually you can get a morale boost that oh no no yeah whereas certainly as a headteacher um most of your contact with parents is going to be with the upset ones and the grumpy ones and it it's actually those times when the school comes together and you realize yeah you know what they most parents here are really appreciating what we're doing and that that really helps and I I think there's a place for reminding yourself how valuable it is you know you did a little post after half term on Instagram where you were doing a lot pep talk yeah yeah yeah yeah and you know there's lots of usual humor and banter and then but there was a real message of you you could make a difference to a child's life this halterm yeah and recognizing that and realizing that actually what you do really is valuable no matter what the Press say and the government might say and some moaning person on a Instagram post might say there will be children whose lives you are transforming because of the input you're giving now and you might never know or you might hear years time I don't know what it is is that is is it something in our brains where because I I've had this before where you know you could do I've done conferences courses to maybe a 100 people you do your avaluation forms 99% say it's the best course you've ever been on you'll get one he'll come and and then that sticks with you and yeah I mean is that just something we're hardwired to focus on is there any way in which we can overcome that because like you say for the majority of teachers they're doing an incredible job 99% of the parents are you know more than happy but you can get that one and we have this we just have this I don't know what it is to focus on it and become let it outweigh the good that we're doing I think that's really really common I'm not sure you know every one is hardwired that way many of us have gone that way and particularly if you've had always tried to please people or always you know been trying to I've got to do this to make everyone happy sort of person then absolutely you notice the one bad thing I think one thing that can be very helpful when you're trapped in thoughts a thinking process that is um not helping you is to be able to step back from it and sort of objectively notice it yeah so rather than be consumed by the feelings of you know oh I'm really depressed because of that one bit of negative feedback if you can identify that and notice it and just go oh here we go here I am again there's my there's my sort of impostor syndrome bit that's my lack of confidence bit getting hammered a bit um I'm recognizing that and actually yeah I can see that's happening can't necessarily stop it but you know I know where that's coming from that that can help you step back from it a little bit and that can be very very helpful it's quite useful tip with anxiety in general to objectify and observe your self-inking oh bril BR I know earlier on in the conversation you sort of mentioned holidays and we sort of had a little bit of a chat about holidays because I sometimes think as much as the holidays are a bit of a perk as well it's probably the biggest perk there is a tendency to become rela on the and and I I've sort of said they can sometimes sort of gas light teachers in a way in that we can feel we we work to the holidays we know then pick up an illness for the first couple of days we recover from that we then have this week or couple of days where we're sort of going oh this is brilliant isn't it this is the best part of our job and then we're back into that cycle which can again be a a factor towards burnout as we've talked about um and you sort of talk about how it's sort of running the alogy of sort of running long distance yeah yeah there's something very unusual about teaching that all the staff are on this termly cycle yeah um and so it's like you know every half term and every term is is like all the staff start a longdistance race at the same time they're all quite fresh in September and then it all gets a bit tight and the pupils as well the pupils you know there's always a week towards the end of half term and towards the end of the year when you know fights and you know difficulties between pupils are more likely because they all getting tired um and so everyone's fresh at the same time and then everyone's exhausted at the same time whereas you know most jobs like my job it's more like a relay race you know as I'm getting tired cuz I haven't had a holiday for a while one of my colleagues just come back from holiday and they're fresh and you know they hand the Baton well I hand the Baton onto them and yeah and we're we're not doing all together and you know to some extent there's a a camaraderie in that you know yeah can we all get there only two weeks to go know and you know so that it's not all bad but it's quite unique it's quite unusual and I think if the only thing that's sustaining you is getting to the holiday um you know that's a bit concerning when it comes to burnout because you you know the the terms are long you know halterm is long um so you can't just live for the holidays and and when the adrenaline drops absolutely I will see parent teachers turn up in my surgery a week or two after term oh it's with some reason or other just and is that just down to the fact we just worn out that we we're more likely to pick up so colds and illnesses and I I mean teachers you know bit like doctors when you first start in general practice you catch more bugs CU particularly you're exposed to more um but I think I think it's a few reason I think definitely adrenaline can get you so far um and then the adrenaline level drops and that's when you start feeling ill I think also teachers it's quite hard to see a doctor if you're a full fulltime teacher in the week because when do you do it um and you know one of the you know the downside of teacher holidays is there's no flexibility you can't say I'll take a day off for this or that um so I think sometimes teachers come and see me in the holidays because that's when they've got permission to do so and they should have come ages ago yeah I always joke about like using the half term to just do all your life admin that you just don't get chance to do during ter time yeah and we you know as doctors some of us go on holiday and halfter and that's when all the teachers tell that oh no we're under staffed we got all these teachers so what can we do to sort of Mi mitigate that um because straight it's like well we with the system the way it is we wouldn't be able to do what you've just said there of it being a relay race so what can we do I mean you can't change that I think it's good to acknowledge it it's good to recognize that actually this is part of the challenge I think you know I I think a good old oldfashioned pep talk from the head who's really in spiring you and you know working together a sense of team can help with that you know cuz there is a sense of team in that which can be a good thing I think recognizing you know we're all very tired now you know is helpful um I think but you can't that is what school life is like isn't it and then I think each individual teacher needs to make sure that their weak is sustainable and that actually they're not just living for the holidays yeah there's one thing saying you know I could do the holiday there's another thing saying I can barely get there till the holiday so somehow there needs to be rhythm in the week um you know not working 14 hour days every day and having some space at the weekends which is a challenge so you say that you've been seeing um or you normally see teachers during the holidays in the past few years what do you feel has been uh potential you know we we sort of talked about imposter syndrome but is there anything that you've seen a real rise in with teachers over the past few years as a GP I think I mean I think anxiety has gone up generally so I I wouldn't say I've only seen anxiety rise in teachers but I'd say but it's more common yeah and I me it's common with with everyone and and teachers are no exception to that there's there definitely really feels like there's a lot anxiety around I I think there's more aware of awareness of it more willingness to go and see a GP about it which is a good thing yeah yeah yeah and you know I don't have the scientific evidence to say it's it's definitely increased as well although I think there was some who studies saying it's on the increase yeah yeah do you think that's down do you think it's just awareness or do you think this particular thing is causing us to be more anxious I think there are particular things causing it I think Modern Life is much more demanding I think you know ultimately our our system of anxiety anxiety was designed to help us deal with threat and we've evolved to have deal with threats of you know wild beasts and the tribe next door coming to attack us and you know not having enough food and all those sorts of things and now we're having to deal with the threat of not being out on you know too many emails and all this attention on our phone and demands to work silly hours and so our body hasn't really evolved for 21st century life yeah and that's whe challenge um I think you know the constant bombardment you know one of the things that leads to burnout is just this sense of being overwhelmed yeah yeah and you know just our phones can overwhelm us can't they absolutely you know access to a mobile phone I think it's a big deal you know for for adults and you know particularly for children and young people um I think you know lockdown without a doubt had a big impact on Mental Health um and it's fascinating some of my patients felt very relieved going into lockdown cuz actually they'd found you know felt very anxious being out in the world and they now had permission to stay at home yeah so in lockdown they felt better while other people had all their support systems cut off and their ability to excise cut off and they felt worse but the ones that felt really relieved going into lockdown actually were I found it really hard to come out yeah yeah you know going back out in the world yeah teachers obviously didn't do that everyone else was baking their souro and teachers were doing virtual learning trying to teach through Microsoft teams which is absolutely challenge so how so how would you define anxiety then um so obviously a certain amount of anxiety is completely normal it's normal to have anxious feelings you know I was a little bit anxious coming here today just thinking am I going to get there on time going to go wrong and and that just makes sure that you pay attention yeah so I think anxiety when it becomes a problem is when it starts having too much influence on your life and that might be in a very defined area you know it might be your you know you're scared of spiders and it just means that you can't go in a room with a spider yeah that might be a minor inconvenience or it might actually make life really difficult for you um and then you've got generalized anxiety where you're just feeling anxious all the time um and it all depends on how much it's controlling your life you know is it affecting your ability to to thrive to do things is it making you avoid loads of things and make and limiting your life yeah cuz avoidance is a very a very almost defining part of anxiety that we want to avoid the thing that makes us anxious and you can easily get in a pattern of avoiding things because it makes you anxious but the trouble is the more you avoid it the more out of practice you get yeah um and the more your your sort of comfort zone where you feel okay get smaller and smaller and smaller and so um is is that a way of battling anxiety well think first what You' just said there about accepting that we all get anxious is is one you know way way towards it but then sort of avoiding avoidance and actually taking the the the fear you have on is it an important thing it it is an important thing particularly if it's if it's important to you the the thing that anxiety is limiting you so here for instance anxiety stops you bungee jumping which it does for me I feel far too anxious to bungee jump my life's pretty complete without bungee jumping yeah not a big deal yeah yeah but if anxiety meant I couldn't get in a car be pretty inconvenient um if anxiety meant it was you know I didn't like going into the High Street or something or I couldn't face you know parts of my job you know or I was just getting tremendously anxious every day going to work as a teacher um or as a pupil you know I'm I'm too anxious to to go to school and I think that's a growing issue for a lot of young students that sort of uh anxiety going into school an yeah and one of the things that's that's good is to practice living with anxious symptoms because the issue with anxiety is it creates physical symptoms your heart races you feel sweaty and clammy and sick and all of that and and very often the instinct is say I must not have those symptoms yeah so if we can practice actually having symptoms of anxiety recognizing is that is that not your body reacting to because was reading about this in terms of exam stress yeah and how um to avoid that exam stress is that your body reacts to stressful situations by doing those things you've talked about and so if you are feeling those feelings as a student this is it's something you should embrace because it's your body saying right we are going to be at the our most alert this is something that's really important really and so it's not something to like we just said avoid it's something almost to embrace to say like your body's ready for this so you can yeah and and Sly to accept accept it yeah because anxiety is trying to get us ready to deal with threat yeah and that that might be the threat of you know we got to run away from you know a wild animal or a fire or whatever um but it might also be the threat of I might fa the exam and so a certain amount of those anxious symptoms helps us to focus and remember to turn up and all of that if you're so anxious that you can't concentrate or you know you can't stop your hand shaking so you can't write then obviously that becomes a a problem so practicing living with those anxious symptoms yeah yeah in other situations can help you when you're in a very stressful situ situation like you know like an exam or a performance or something like that an inspection for inspection yeah absolutely um so yeah accepting anxious symptoms is is hard yeah yeah yeah but it's but it's really key and um and and the right way of approaching it as well so obviously if you've got a child who is I'm thinking here now more from a sort of parents perspective that if you feel that your child is anxious about eventually go into school how' you go about that because obviously you want your child going but is there a you can't force them because that can be counterproductive so how would you go about that with with your students or children so I think I think one thing is way before they refuse to go to school it's a matter of as parents and it's hard parenting we don't have to be perfect we just have to kind of be good enough I think good enough parenting is good enough um but can we allow them to face some of their struggles to deal with anxiety to practice situations that aren't easy yeah um so that hopefully they don't get to a point of avoiding avoiding School entirely whereas if we've tried to fight every battle for them if we've tried to protect them from anything that might be difficult which is a natural thing for us to do as parents but can be counterproductive if we absolutely yeah of course you want to protect your child but you got to think the bigger picture of by protecting them from this little bit of conflict today am I making life more difficult because they don't have that practice of dealing with and that resilience yeah um once they've got to a point of I'm not going to school it's more difficult yeah because the right way to to deal with something we're really anxious with is what's often called exposure therapy I don't really like the word exposure because it sounds scary and actually it's scary enough as it is um but if you're going to face up to the thing you're scared of you need to be a willing participant yeah and if you're just dragged into school potentially you got to be very careful because that could be just very traumatic um you know if you need a bit of persuading and controlling and confidence building that you're going to be all right you know that that's very different to you know foring forcing someone to to be exposed to their fears yeah um and I you know very often when you push yourself out your comfort zone you you do it gradually you gradually exposed to things so ideally you don't get to that place in the first the first place but you don't necessarily see it coming um over the years of you know whether or not a child can deal with the you know deal with conflict and deal with challenge yeah I mean I I sometimes have those disc discussions with my wife with our kids because I'm very much like I don't want to fight their battles but my wife's very much more you know protective and it's just finding that balance isn't it because I feel and I'm um there there are a lot of children now that don't have that resilience um and I feel it's it's so important and that we were just talking the break before about I feel like sport can play a real MH uh um important role in exposing children to you know dealing with lo lo it not get in your way all the time and um and so not always fighting fighting their battles absolutely I and I think his parents particularly looking for battles where it's safe to leave them to fight it okay you know like losing a football match yeah um and you know helping them to to deal with that loss yeah nothing traumatic has happened other than they've lost a football match rather than saying no you must go and fight that battle which actually could be very traumatic for them I don't know so you know when they fall out with with other children at school there'll be times when you think actually you know I just need to let them get on with this let them know I'm with you know I'm on their side I'm supporting them I'm there for them but you know I'm not going to rage in and try and solve it for them you know there might be another issue at school where you think no actually that that's the B the way they've been dealt with there I need to inter um because you know some horrific bullying does happen oh absolutely not to talk every time a child says something unkind that oh they're being bullied I've got to and I think parents it's hard to navigate that with their youngsters with the mobile phone World we're sort of living in I I I feel really strongly that young I mean primary age children I don't think you should have a a smartphone at all and I don't think they should have one probably until and they 11 or you know why do they need it and it's well we're just in the previous app we were talking about banning it for under 16 and I'm completely behind that now and and what's really interesting is an awful lot of parents I think would be really for that if that culture was in the school but they don't want their child to be the one that's missing out missing out absolutely um and actually I think we should you know help our children cope with fear of missing out actually you know oh yeah it's not so terrible I'm all for Joo the joy of missing out yeah heard that I like that um have you noticed then that there's would you say there's been a correlation as a GP in anything linked to children being exposed to smartphones and social media yeah yeah definitely I mean you know there are some some really horrific ones where someone's been groomed and you know and I've been aware of that as a GP um in a way that's awful aw um I think at a lower level you know there's year six WhatsApp groups that you just ah you know even even if they're quite friendly and often that sort of group can lapse you know if you have a whole of year six and there's I don't know three classes 100 children and you know 80 of them are on a WhatsApp group the number of messages that will come through oh yeah just distruct well it was so another thing I wanted to ask you in terms of phones and stuff and this is both for children and because I've noticed it more as a teacher I feel is the attention because we're living in a world where if you're on your phone you constantly yeah and I'm always like we've got to let kids be bored yeah like we've got out of the habit of just letting children like when we were younger we didn't have these phones where we were just constantly you know you had your TV but it was four channels and you were just sort of left to own devices to be and I think children are really missing out on the opportunities of being bored um but I also feel it as an adult I feel like my attention's just yeah you got any tips for that how I can get my attention back CU I find it really hard to focus yeah and I don't think I've always been like that but I think be because I spent a lot of my time obviously because of my work a lot of my work goes through my my phone yeah that I find it hard to I think one of the things with phones is it's so easy to pick up yeah um and sometimes if you want to stop doing something or do less of it um one of the best ways to think how can I devise a system that makes it harder to do so if for instance you know where someone charges their phone you know so many people charge their phone in their bedroom yeah which is terrible for Sleep um and even if you've got it on airplane mode it means if you wake in the night or when you wake in the morning it's just quick to reach for it yeah which is not great so even if you say well I'm going to charge my phone downstairs then actually you've made it harder to pick it up right um and therefore you have to be more motivated to go and get it and therefore you're less likely to do it so you know with what you do you're going to need your phone on you a fair amount of the time but there might be times where you say actually I'm going to boundary this and say you know this time every week is phone free and that's where my phone goes and I make it harder to reach it whereas if you say to yourself well you know on Wednesday nights I'll I'll try not to use my phone but it's in your pocket yeah you're not likely to succeed yeah yeah yeah um so the other thing I wanted to to ask so obviously other mental sort of mental health imposter syndrome was one because I feel that's just come out of nowhere yeah um and sort of it wasn't but it's you know we talk about it a lot more yeah uh I think teachers suffer with it quite a bit um the fact that we are you know if you've just come into teaching you sort of there with a class of 30 children sort of thinking I I remember having these I never knew it was imposter syndrome but F when I first started teaching because I went straight in from uni so I was like 22 so incredibly mature myself just like who's put me in charge of these children how am I supposed to um so is there anything that we can you you know combat that or so I I think imposter syndrome it's actually a term I quite like so it's obviously not a medical diagnosis just a description of feeling like you're not up to the task when the evidence is that you are I think it's quite useful giving it a name like that because one of the things when you have thoughts that are unhelpful whether they're anxious thoughts or questioning thoughts they're often sort of what if thoughts you know what if I'm not actually a good teacher what if someone finds me out one day yeah um What if I you know don't teach well when I'm being observed all those things will feed into that and sometimes one of the most useful things you can do is to objectify your anxiety so you you name it You observe it almost as if you're an external Observer You observe your thoughts CU we're not you know our thoughts we imagine our thoughts are us're they're not you know often thoughts just pop into our head they don't Define us we're big bigger than our thoughts um and so if you can say okay that's my impostor syndrome speaking then you can step aside from it and then just say well I acknowledge you um I can see that you're there but I'm not going to pay you any attention yeah and in fact sort of broader than that I one thing um on my Instagram and in a a book I'm writing about anxiety which isn't out yet but it'll be out next year I talk about an anxiety monster right um because how you view your anxiety if you have anxiety is really important and many people people view it in different ways so they might view it as a monster that might jump out at me at any time and cause a panic attack and I I'm all living in fear of it all the time which isn't very helpful no or they might it might be an enemy to fight you know I dread my anxiety it's awful I have to fight it and and actually there's enough stimulation with anxiety without you fighting something yeah um or sometimes it's an Overlord who has to be obeyed I can't do that because of my anxiety or I couldn't possibly because of my anxiety I have to do this because of my anxiety you're kind of just passive yeah and those are ones to fall into but none of them are very helpful and what I like is imagining so this is for adults I think it works for children but I'm not thinking of this as a children thing right imagining your anxiety as a monster that wants to protect you but actually isn't a very good monster so you picture a a slightly silly monster maybe with goofy teeth or bulgy eyes or that's trying to be scary but not very good at it that's like always on alert saying oh watch out for this watch out for that but I can't fight that but I could tell you about it sort of thing yeah and they and they kind of need taming yeah and to even actually imagine what it looks like um you know what color is it what what's its teeth like what's it what's it look like and even giving it a name so in my Instagram I I call it Wilbur right just cuz I don't know any Wilbur so it doesn't doesn't color what I imagine and so then you might go okay I'm really anxious about today and you might even say Okay Wilbert I I hear you I see you you know you're raging a bit you're a bit noisy today aren't you you know teachers are probably quite good at thinking yeah I spot you um and I'm not going to fight you I'm not going to try and disprove you I'm just acknowledging you but I'm not going to pay you any more attention than I have to and that can be a really useful way of accepting your anxiety you'll then find that actually the anxious symptoms over time it's not going to happen immediately but start diminishing in because you become less fearful of it yeah yeah you know the the monster that could jump out at any time the enemy to fight the overlord they're all fearful whereas this little cuddly rather stupid yappy Wilbur Who you know is trying to protect you but keeps going off all you know actually that can bring a bit of humor and a bit of a smile to how you think about your anxiety and then you're less fearful of it and then you can gradually manage it better I actually think that's an amazing analogy for young people as well I think that would be very relatable I think that's a great way of uh approaching it and a a lovely point to sort of wrap up our conversation it's been fantastic I've learned a lot um I hope everyone listening to it as as well and thank you so much for coming on thank you very much Lee really enjoy chatting to you me too thank you cheers so massive thank you to everyone for listening I would also like to say a huge thank you to Our Guest Dr Martin brunette for joining and providing such valuable insights I took so much away from that conversation I hope you did too I love that analogy about the monster with anxiety I think that's being that's some I'm definitely going to refer to and use that's also tied in really nicely with the fact that I took my kids to go and see inside out too recently at the cinema which I would highly recommend because again a great sort of analogy of how to deal with anxiety and if you are a child of children heading into those teenage years which is where I'm and absolutely dreading it really help with that alongside that conversation there but you've been listening to the TTS talking teachers podcast with me Lee Parkinson aka Mr P if you've been inspired by our conversation today don't forget you can sign up via the link in our episode notes to be the first to hear about future episodes and access exclusive follow-up content including ideas for your school and links to relevant resources once again thank you very much for listening and take care of yourself e e e e e e e e e e e e e e