but Ben your take on that as well I mean you have been long campaigning for the modernization not at the expense of the tradition but in order to sort of Take It Forward what what needs to happen yeah it's it's that's really the example for us to to see what can be done if a if a sport is properly managed and commercialized so you have you know the balance between the the the the F1 circuit if you like and then the teams and for it to really work both have to I think but is appetite is there an appetite though within cut world within the sailing world within the teams like are one in pushing that conversation forward so that these changes do happen because when it happens well you see it in in sale GP you really see it which is very similar to the F1 model where we have the league that is that is neutrally managed effectively to to to operate the commercial best commercial interests of the of the of the event the league and then the teams which are now independently own but in in a franchise model and that is really starting to get some traction commercially the cup has amazing history and and Prestige as a brand but it doesn't have that neutral management it doesn't have the continuity it's like you said it might be every 3 four five years till the next event depending on who wins it and I think really whoever wins this next event or certainly in the near future they need to sit down and get the different stakeholders together and say right what's a you know 10 20 year vision for this event because again it's got a huge amount of potential it's just not realized can we talk TOA about the business of sport I think you're the perfect person to have this conversation with because you're a huge sports fan you're massively passionate about sport but you came into sport this way VIA business has your philosophy your business philosophy evolved or changed over however many years as a result of how you need to react to sport I feel like there are so many more variables or would would be so many more VAR within the sporting context that it's not just the results thing there's a whole other bigger piece there especially the emotional bit so has your sort of philosophy evolved in that way I think I at heart I was always a racer was a young racing driver couldn't afford it anymore and went into finance and when I came back success on track always stood more important for me by a mile A Thousand Miles than the financial success related there too and I think you that's the mindset you need to have um now obviously we all we all living in a real world um and and being successful on on financially is also important particularly if you're running a sports franchise but we were able to to combine that in a way we were more successful we are growing the revenue side the governing body changed the the landscape by introducing a cost cap which was good so we were not outspending each other anymore um but what unites what unites people with sports is the emotion like you say um because it's in a way on a Sunday afternoon it's the most important not important topic you can go into go into heavy arguments um with um competitors and fans among themselves but on the Monday it's maybe PP talk and it doesn't really negatively or positively affect your life but it creates a lot of emotion and that and that is something that only sports or or music or or or theater film can do but you don't get that kick in an office and have you become sort of less or more rational with age because I often wonder from a from a business perspective you're making and you're basing things on rational decision making sometimes with sport it's so unpredictable that you know those things can go out of the window and it's a gut instinct that takes you forward I mean what do you think to that I I think cut instinct is something important because there's more um cells and neurol links that's going up this direction and not the other way um but when you when you are in sports you never change I would give up every every scent of profit for Success at any time and when you tell that to not when you tell that to normal business people they think you've lost your mind you're grownup adult uh you have to look after to your company what you want to achieve is uh solid cash flows and then you're talking about on track success who cares but we do because we're Sports people and the the on track success and the Victory and have lifting the trophy that moment is just so much more um fulfilling than just posting a profit in a p&l I mean you're you're entering into this world aren't you B big time with s with cup life you know moving from being athlete to business person don't change yeah but it's it's really it because do you actually have to bearing in mind you've got that mindset you've always had that mindset of a professional athlete like Toto saying actually that you should you should stick with that that's that's actually a really huge Advantage well you're not you're not going to lose that mindset just because you're not necessarily competing on the water or competing in a race car you're still competing even if you know reached seen Toto a lot with the emotion of being there on the radio to the guys and everyone else in the team living that moment even if they're not in a racing car or not on a racing boat there's a lot goes into these organizations it's very hard for people I think fans to re they look at the car they look at the boat to realize what goes on behind the scenes the amount of effort required and for anyone to work in Formula 1 and work in America's Cup the hours that are required you can't just be doing that for the paycheck you've got to love it you got to have that determination to be part of a winning organization like Mercedes has been for so long and I can understand the pain for you with the dominance and then suddenly being on the back foot you want to be back there where where you and your team deserve to be it's certainly the the pressure is a is a factor because so many people work hard for so little reward and you got to acknowledge that that we are so lucky blessed that we we're in such a situation but we work 7 days a week 356 days how many days in the year 65 days 3 yeah less nine less I work nine less holidays no but you be working all day seven days a week There's no day where you're not on um but it's just on the other side I haven't worked a single day because it's what we love to do uh it comes natural and that is something which you always need to cherish because that's not a given but does it feel like you're now I mean you're there's absolutely no way you you sort of have the mentality of a startup but it feels like to actually go again and to sort of come back from being out of the mix which is you know where you were for for a while which probably felt like Ben said incredibly painful does is it quite galvanizing to sort of say sort of does it create a Siege mentality at a moment where it's most required I think you need to what I'm trying to have a long-term perspective and um as but running the team and being a coowner I want to look back in 20 years and say there was we won many championships but that doesn't necessarily mean that we winning every single one and we've pushed the boundary quite far already uh by doing eight in a row so since then we finished third and second so it's not that we've completely lost it but there was just another team which which was much better but in comparison to the other our other competitors we were still more successful some of those competitors haven't won a champ ship since 15 or 20 years must not forget so I'm trying to bring some kind of um um stability in there and that means if we get it wrong we will improve if we get it wrong we will improve and this is a normal cycle and we'll feel very difficult at at times but is important to come back up and I'm sure we will and look back and say that was difficult years sometimes you said on the on the siege but it's just of sports you have to admit you can't win any Champion any any year every year championship there's no Sports in in the world that won every single year they participated un unless you quit we don't want to quit and also perspective right yeah but I think and you will get it back and you will win I know you can't say that but it it will happen that will be probably the most rewarding victory that you and the team ever had maybe other than the first Victory you you've had this you've had this haven't you I mean you've you've had serious adversity with the last couple of cup campaigns and it's it's bloody hard work it's amazing how shallow people can be yeah but you have to you have to you know it's not even holding back I mean it's literally but you have to bounce back yeah you do well what else you're going to do you're G to put your dig your head in the sand and but as a leader as a leader how important is it to step up when that when that happens because like you say Toto when it's all Rosy and it's all great everyone's on that Journey with you but actually the job that you really have to do is the one in adversity yeah for sure that's when you when you have to step up I mean ultimately if you don't then you're not going to be in the job much longer than I think so yeah it's but it's tough because everyone's frustrated and you know but somehow you have to find the balance between oh you know it can't be it's okay guys we were just unlucky it needs to be a reality check this isn't good enough we got to get our act together but at the same time you can't throw the toys out of the pram because you won't get the best out of people so find balance there to find so next few months um what do you think is going to make the difference because we know with F1 a season goes goes through a season and you have upgrades coming all the time with the cup there is a there is a similar program you do have a program of upgrades and developmental work going on behind the scenes over you know it goes on for a very long time doesn't it over a decent sort of eight-week period or so so what will make the difference in the next few months to success or failure really from what I've seen it's quite close on the water between the teams and to answer your question what will make the difference really the teams that can continue that progression in performance across the range of wind wind strengths and sea States and that's that's really the key to this period now we're going to start doing some informal practice racing next month and then we have end of August we have the final warm-up event that that final warm-up event will really send the set the Benchmark of of really which teams are performing when and there's not a lot of time after that to really recover if if you're on the back foot so these next few weeks are absolutely critical I know what it would mean to Ben to win this thing what would it mean to you Toto and the Mercedes partnership because there's this common phrase in the America's Cup which is there is no second um so if we were to October the 21st or whatever it is lift up that massive 120 kilo old mug let's not get ahead of ourselves let's get ahead of ourselves what would that what would that what would that feel like as a combined effort I think in a way you you need to visualize these things also only when you can visualize you can actually make them happen but you mustn't talk too much about it because you you destroy that visualization um it's so difficult I mean winning the cup uh with the set of regulations that do exist it's tremendously difficult and you can see the the pattern you know Team New Zealand how many times did they win it they're going first well they've won it four times now they're going for three in a row three in a row you can see how difficult it is and I think you are the underdog uh we are We Are The Underdogs if I can say we in this project because um the back foot but it just feels good to you know if I started to follow America's Cup last time around when we were trying to help out because that's what we did no more than this and I'm sure that when when when the event starts going I will be all in um um and uh you there's not not a lot more than shearing that I can do you would you can get on the boat now exactly now now we know we've got you lined up as a cycl that's it done we'll send you a fitness program got two months to get there you got a sh I can get the peak wats but not the endurance but no I I guess I will be cheering my I can give you more contribution by cheering than by being actually actively involved we expect nothing less thank you so much both of you thank you join us for the performance people podcast every week for the highs lows lessons and stories from people like this lot Michael Johnson from is is what I would see as a person who was a shell of what I used to be Eddie Hearn we don't operate in a business that's dangerous but we just operate in one where you got to sleep with one eye open mo Farah it couldn't get any harder than what I've gone through and at that point I just kind of just went for it Paul Ratcliffe you can only control yourself Susie wolf and Toto did once Laken me to a donkey every Tuesday wherever you get your podcasts hello performance people listeners my name is Freddy Carr and I host a podcast called the inside Tech which is a podcast that follows the British Americas Cup team inos Britannia as we get ready for the 37th America's Cup down here in Barcelona we also follow the youth and the first ever women's America's Cup we would love you to like And subscribe to our podcast follow us on all your social media channels as we get ready for our sporting challenge of a lifetime [Music]