Series 2 - Ep4 - Ben Ainslie Part 2

this is Castle One race officer speaking pressor coming here pressure coming we're 1.5 below D here boys we looking at 105 at 42 42 hello my dear podcast listeners thanks again for joining us we hope you all listen to part one of Ben's podcast and I've come back for more this time we are delving deep into Ben's experiences competing for the oldest trophy in World Sports that elusive America's Cup if you haven't listened to part one maybe scroll back and give it a go first it's full of anecdotes from Ben's Olympic Journey his epic showdowns with Brazilians Robert shyen the laser and his intense battle to wingold at London 2012 his home games a feat his adamant was his toughest Olympic win of all time as I said at the start of part one the day we recorded the Pod with Ben was an exciting one we met him at the America's Cup team base and for the first time in months the team were preparing for a day on the water like many of us the sailing team at Inus team UK have been in lockdown and during that time the Buddha has been transported back from its winter base in Sardinia it's been months since we've seen the imposing almost shadow-like outline of the ac75 flying around the soland but Ben and the team were all readying for their first fory out onto home waters for quite some time so it was heartening to see big thanks must go to Ben himself before we get underway sitting down for over two hours to record the podcast it's such a busy time it's much appreciated and the results well he's had an incredible career there's so much we could have talked about but in this Edition we're all about the cup how he first got involved what it was like winning it and of course how things are shaping up as racing in Oakland draws ever nearer I hope you enjoy part two of the time I spent with sir Ben anley I remember Russell's phone going off was pretty obvious it was Larry and he wasn't too happy about what he was saying you know probably a bit more of an instinctive sailor so I'd do random things he was sat having dinner with Stanley mccrystal and condalisa rice and I sat down started talking about the America's Cup so far Ben we've been all about the Olympics there's been a lot more tier sailing than that of course match racing big boat sailing but we do have some time constraint so we're going to turn to the cup now and I'm guessing that after that display of Ruthless boat handling and tactics you put on at the games in Sydney that the phone started ringing what was your first first America's Cup experience yeah that's right actually uh Peter Gilmore who was then I think number one match race in the world well certainly up there with Russell cot uh had been asked to put together a a US team for Seattle Yacht Club owned by a guy called Craig mcco who was Nextel and this was just before the do bubble burst in in 2000 and so I spoke and Peter came to actually I was in Sydney he was there I went to see him even before the games and we chatted about getting involved they were putting this team together um and some of the best names in American sailing the mcky brother brothers Morgan LaRon Kevin Hall some really really um good talented guys like that um Lori Davidson who was a designer for team Mand 95 so um again some real real top designers um had had the financial backing um also had some of the key Sailors from Team New Zealand guys like Rick Dodson Andrew Taylor Jeremy scantlebury um so yeah real top team so I I thought this is a great opportunity to get involved at the highest level and learn you know from the top guys in the game it was a bit of a tricky decision because Peter Harrison quite late in the game came in and and put in his challenge gbr challenge and I remember having a period of sort of trying to uming and aring about whether to go with the British team or which was going to be a first first time at it which is always tough uh or going with a more a team with lots of experienced people who who'd won the cup and had designers who'd won the cup so I ended up going for the with Peter Gilmore who was a great guy and I did quite a lot of match racing with Peter as his sort of main sheet hand stroke tactician and and we had we had a great time um but the team itself was quite a tough experience cuz you know I was only 21 22 when I went there I you know spent my life in single handers as we talked about was pretty shy when I was younger and I didn't really have other than Peter who was busy running the team didn't really have any necessarily any support you know I wasn't going there with any mates or anything like that um and actually remember Jimmy and a lot of his guys said Joey Newton Ben Durham Andy FS they came in about the same time that I joined and that was great cuz they were a similar age and really good good lads good Aussie Aussie bunch and so that I enjoyed that but at the same time I couldn't really see a pathway to you know how I fitted in in terms of what my RO was and and Peter was always quite keen and I did lots of different jobs on the boat which is great so I went out the m i did the runners I did some trimming um did a little bit of helming but I was kind of doing lots of different jobs not really focusing on anything and and so I could kind of see a point I didn't really know how I was going to actually get to do any racing and um I remember one day we were out training and doing some training racing and um we trolled the spica and I was doing tactics and so I ran forwards in the boat to try and help retrieve the Spiner I remember I won't say his name it's not really fair but he just one of the older experienced guys and just lost it in me cuz he's like you never you never leave your position what are you doing up here you never and I was like well yeah mate if you hadn't noticed we're trolling the spa so unless we can get that out of the water you know we're not going anywhere anyway and and I just kind of thought H I don't really need this and I don't know just something snapped and I just I don't really want to do this anymore so it was a really difficult decision because like I said I was only young and I kind of really really experienced top guys in the American Cup game and I realized I was going to take a bit of a hit my reputation was going to take a bit of a hit as a team player and someone that you'd look to for the America's Cup but at the same time I just felt like uh wasn't really where I wanted to be in and so I uh I left left the team I remember pet Peter saying to me well that's okay you can do that but you're going to have to stand up in front of everyone and explain to them why you're leaving which was a complete Hospital pass and I I still don't I I mean i' get on really well with Peter and if we don't have any problems at all but I I I'm not quite sure why I did that because I remember certainly if in my position I'm in now I'd never asked some youngster to go and do that because it's you know especially in front of all these Legends of the Americas cup so I felt like a complete idiot when I just stand up in front of them and tell them why I was leaving but they were you know they you know they're much more experienced they've seen plenty of people come and go in the sport and they were all very nice about it and uh they went on did okay they had some issues with funding when the tech Bubble Burst and unfortunately Craig mcco lost lost a lot of money and that was all tied up with the funding of the team um but they got to the to the semis and and uh I think lost eventually to a lingi or Oracle I can't remember which um and that that was that campaign so I I kind of learned a lot as a it was a as a sticking of nose into America's Cup World um uh but it was uh ultimately was a disappointing end you know I I I really didn't like leaving a team like that I I really struggled with the decision but came to the point where I just felt I had to had to get out of it and get back to um doing some something which I uh knew a bit better which was Olympic sailing and and then that got me into the fin which was which was a great move does it put you off the America's Cup I mean did you leave thinking yeah I still want to be involved with in this but just not in this scenario or did you think that you had to be involved to be taken seriously yeah it was frustrating because as a kid I said earlier I grew up in Cornwall I remember as I maybe about 10 years old I was Sting around in my Optimus with some mates and they Peter Davy had his America's Cup team then and he had some 12 meters and they were out there training and I remember watching these 12 meters from a distance and just thinking those boats look amazing and I just really want to be involved with that somehow in the future the America's Cup and then I started watching it on telly and and so on and really really got into it and watched the 95 cup um uh sorry 92 93 and then 95 and Team New Zealand obviously winning dominating in 95 and that massive massive sort of Desire ambition to be involved with the cup and try and win the cup for Britain or just win the cup full stop but to ideally to win it for Britain and so yeah I was really frustrated cuz my first experience had been ultimately not been good and as I said I was kind of worried that I kind of ruined my reputation in professional sailing because you don't walk out of a team like that really um well you know it's pretty hard to get back in once you're done that uh so yeah it was it was a big big decision and um anyway I um got out of it went into the fin had a great time with the Finn and then Grant dalon emailed me in 200 uh 2001 no sorry not 2001 2003 uh just after the the kires had lost theingi and he'd been charged with putting Tim Ean back together and um you know I just so he came and we met actually I was doing the world championships in Cadiz in the Finn 2003 and he came over to cadz and we met and just instantly got on really well because anyone knows dots he's a complete straight shooter and I I like that in people I can't you know people who sort of you know aren't really direct and you know say one thing and mean something else I just find that a bit of a struggle so um he's uh we had a great conversation you know talked about how he wanted to rebuild a team you know still around Dean and the core guys and some of the designers that he was talking about bringing in and it just sounded you know obviously the reputation of Team New Zealand is huge in sailing and so again I thought well it's a great opportunity um to get involved and and try and and um do a bit better than the last campaign and learn more about professional sailing in the americ cup and I and I kind of liked Grant Dalton so I thought I'll do it and then did the games in Athens then went straight to Valencia where they had the first actors they called them uh which was both match racing and Fleet racing in the version five boats and my role was as a strategist and Terry Hutchinson was a tactician Dean was a Helmsman and we actually did really well in the event I think we won I think we won the match racing or we was second in the match racing well you know either first or second in the fleet racing the match racing but it was just kind of clear that that that strategist role wasn't really the right right role for me and with the personalities that were there just it just wasn't really going to fit so rather than do three years getting frustrated I had had a chat with Grant and said I I think sorry but it's probably not work um but youve got two boats there's an option there that you need a second Helmsman a backup for Dean or something he gets injured i' also for the in-house racing to to build that up and have intense in-house racing and so thankfully he said yeah look I think that's great you know take that on and for me it was great because I wanted to learn how to match race I haven't really done much of that and and and also to steer those bigger boats um and so yeah it was it was it was a fantastic team some really great people in that team you know one thing with Grant Dalton is for the budget that he has he does an amazing job of getting banged for buck and uh you know it was a really solid campaign seriously close to winning it lingy amazing team okay didn't have Russell anymore but still an amazing team with Brad and and the guys um it was frustrating not racing um that was that was a frustrating period but you know the buildup to that the ability to learn how to match race and to be with a top team um yeah learned a huge huge amount through that um and then that led into to team origin with Keith you've obviously sailed against Dean on many occasions you had a bit of a coming together didn't you with Team Japan in Bermuda in the last cup um he's helming the americaas boat in this approaching cup yeah what did you learn about Dean in your time with Team New Zealand uh way phenomenally good match racer technically I think J Dean and Jimmy technically um at that period you know I mean match Racing's changed a lot now the whole game's completely changed but then they were the best technically um very very hard in terms of all the set moves very hard to sort of get them out of their their Rhythm um and that was really the any way and and they had great teams around them so fast and had all the set plays worked out after you know they both sort of grew up match racing so it was sort of ingrained in them so for me it was a lot of time it took a long time to learn those plays and how that worked out and then um you know I'm probably a bit more of an instinctive sailor so I do random things um which sometimes worked but more often not than the set play which those guys worked out after years and years of doing it so um big yeah great great learning opportunity to go up against Dean you know day in day out um and and uh and learn that match racing game and it you know and get reasonably good at it in the end it was it took a while but Dean yeah Dean technically very good you know great um I think great with the team quite quiet um sort of leading by example really I think um but yeah it's pretty pretty solid as a sailor yeah it's hard to cop isn't it in many ways I mean you're British you want to fly the flag but you want to compete with a team that has a real chance of achieving something but by 2010 you joined sir Keith Mills a huge investor in our sport I mean a man with a reputation for getting things done he'd set up team origin there was plenty of talent involved you joined a Skipper and finally you're with a British Cup team was there a thought early on that the team could be competitive and what happened to the team yeah I think there was a lot of hope that it could be a competitive team you know we had some great Sailors um person and Bart um you know cat flap great Ma of mine um and some good sort of um antip ofan additions bringing in um some good some good experience and actually the last race we did was out here the 1851 cup in the version five boats where we did some exhibition match racing against Oracle uh Jimmy and the the guys of Oracle and we had we had Simon dney War flurry Rodney um we had Matt Mitchell helping cat flap on the bow and we we had a fantastic series you know we really we really took it to them and had some great I think anyone who did that series just loved it because the boats were quite old by that stage and they changed rule 17 so actually if you got an overlap from behind you could just laugh someone straight away so we were just ripping around the solent Laughing each other head to win with the spers up and just causing all sorts of Carnage um but having some great racing and we we ended up winning out this the series and so yeah it was it was a shame that then we they you know had the deed of GIF race with Al lingi that took couple of years to go through the courts and then build the boats and have the race I think a lot of people in the America's cut world were massively frustrated by all of that because it had then been between you know so you had a Hiatus of uh six six years or so between cups which you know my generation of sailors that's six years of your career really unless you were in one of those two teams you weren't you weren't competing um so that was that was a really frustrating period and again you think to sport overall it's frustrating that things like that can happen and surely we can do a better job to try and get the right leadership in in sailing to avoid things like that happening but anyway that that was the situation and unfortunately Keith you you know quite understandably looked at what it was costing what it was going to cost to keep going and um and it just wasn't the right thing so and that was a real shame because we had a great team we got Grant Mike Sanderson was involved at the beginning and then Grant simmer came in um uh and um we had some some great designers good good solid Squad so I think there was a lot of um potential in that but unfortunately we never got to see it to fruition must have been quite frustrating for you because finally like you you're s of getting there it was we yeah and I was worked a lot with Keith really closely on putting a team together and getting the right people involved he he was great Kei and um it was a really sad moment again quite a pivotal moment though because at that point I was working really hard on the team and I didn't really see a way I could do both that and and the Olympics 2012 so actually in bring you close to that um Keith sort of inadvertently then open the the Olympic Avenue back up for me one of the most talked about subjects on this podcast is of course San Francisco 2013 I've yet to interview anyone from the New Zealand book for the Pod we we'll get there but we have spoken to I'm sure it's it's amazing how uh you know the story you know evolves as time goes by it would be it would be great to get some some kiwi aspect to it we definitely get to New Zealand but we have spoken to Kyle Langford Russell Cs and of course Jimmy spittle all from Oracle Team USA the winning bat back at the 2013 cup they each have their own very specific stories to tell on how it all went down but for you Ben again you'd taken the position of bbo Skipper so pushing Jimmy spittle in the build up to the cup and you then watched as the team lost race after race to the kiwis what were you thinking throughout the early stages of the cup well you got to go back there through the campaign and I I know he talked in depth to many people about this but you know it was a really bizarre cup and I actually looking ahead to this next cup I see a lot of similarities in the way things are playing out um a new class of boat I mean the orac campaign was really um not necessarily for anyone's fault but it was just it been a set a lot of setbacks you know the boat capsized got taken out with the E tide broken up in San Francisco Bay then we had to rebuild that try and get a second boat going then you know obviously horrendously had the emus um crash so it' been a really and then the sort of um ac45 measurement to barkle so it' been kind of shambolic really and going into it no one had really lined up against each other that much in the 72s we knew the kiwis had been going really well just by monitoring um their perform performance and how they were handling and so on and then how they performed through the Challenger Series and but at Oracle we had our own set of problems which talked about and I come into the team quite late on the back of 2012 um in a sort of similar role to you know the role that I did at Team New Zealand um and frankly didn't do that much sailing because as I said we destroyed one boat had to rebuild it and then get the get the other boat out so and the the amount of people and manp you know the Manpower Logistics it took to operate two boats was um was really uh took a lot of time and so we only sail two boats I don't know probably 15 10 15 times something like that uh so I hadn't really done a huge amount to be honest and then we got racing knew the key was going to be tough straight out the block the performance was similar as they had they certainly had an edge early early on and and um and the race you know as you said the racing was clearly going their way there were a couple of close races in there but they always seem to squeak through and then they seem to have a slight speed Edge and then yeah I remember it must have been race five I suppose we were watching and we were um Jimmy guys had had a good start were in the lead we're leading around the bottom gate and then you know did this move which actually be fair tactically was the right thing to do to get early came around the right hand gate and try and do a S of foiling tag and get into the cone of Alcatraz get the tidal relief but for whatever reason made a mess of the maneuver and kind of fell off the foils then ended up being a slow Tack and AI was just came round duck behind them had loads more speed and actually the next cross I think we're ahead and um and I remember bit I was in the boat with Russell and Grant and and um I remember Russell's phone going off and it kind of was a bit you know it was slightly held off his ear and um it pretty obvious it was Larry and he wasn't too happy about what he was seeing you know oh God you know what's going to happen now and then he just turned around to me and he said are you you better get your wet suit on you know I was like what are you talking about he said I think we're going to have to do something I said look I can't well for start hav got my wet suit with me so that's not going to work and and and secondly you know you don't need me to tell you but we you know and Russ Russell so you obviously super experienced guy um righty decided that he needed to speak to Jimmy and um so as you Kur you sort of called a delay and then Russell and Jimmy had a good chat about things and you know I was sort of at the back of the boat so thinking well I don't really know how this is going to play out and I don't you know I've never I haven't looked at any of the Tactical software or whatever if they asked me to do that role I don't really sure how it's going to play out anyway they made the right decision which was to take a spare day which you could and go back to the base and regroup um and then um and then eventually after a while they I wasn't involved in in the discussions but they decided that they wanted to to to switch JK out and put me in in the Tactical role which was tough obviously really tough for JK okay and you know the first thing I did was just phone him up and chat it through and to be fair he was he was amazing his response was just brilliant I think sort of true class and professionalism which was yeah look I'm I'm disappointed but I want the team to win and I'll help help you do whatever you need to do to run through all the software and so on um so we spent the next day he helped me out a lot going through that and how it all worked because I hadn't seen any of it and um and we had a day's practice but most importantly and what really you know I think most people will say changed the game for us the designers did a really good job looking at how we could load up the the wing more um get the center of effort lower and load up the foils and we made that setup change and that that had a huge impact on the performance then we worked out oh actually we might be able to we played around with foiling up wind in practice but normally the we could only get foiling momentarily and then we normally we screwed up the maneuver so it kind of the the amount of of of gain line we chewed up by getting on the FL in the first place we didn't normally get that back so we kind of hadn't really played it played around with it enough in the buildup to be confident that it would work and so therefore we weren't using it in the racing and then I think with this setup change it just like I said loading up the foils more it just powered the boat up and we were found we were able to get on the foil earlier and obviously have a lot of success with that and that was as a real game changer um and that was you know great team effort really with the designers looking at it with the salers the shore crew working through the night to make Implement those changes and then going out and learning the techniques of how to sail the boat so it's fascinating period because this is all in the middle of the event um so yeah it was great it's amazing to be to be a part of that and experience that did you have any hesitation how did you approach it um yes yeah I mean there was you know a couple of people you know good mate Brad Borth who's a really good good mate over the years and the mate I mean he's one of my sort of Heroes if you like with sort of people like Russell and and Paul elstrom and those kind of guys um he I remember and he's a kind of super smart guy Brad and sort of kind of bit has a sort of bit of a Macky Alan streak I remember him saying to me oh mate you don't want to do this this is just you're just getting set up here for things things don't work out it's all going to be on you and I could sort of see that argument but at the same time you know you've been asked to they team you know i' been I didn't been with a team 12 months but they're a really good group of guys have asked to get in there and help and you know you're going to say yes and um there was always a chance that who knows you might be able to turn us around and um yeah some somehow we did but there was some amazing races in there and uh yeah some big some big moments but I got on really well with Tom things be so he and I had a good relationship got on well with Jimmy uh he did a good he did you know I think in terms of just keeping the show on the road um yeah he did an amazing job uh so and of course Russell and and Grant and the designers and um Tugboat on the shore team you know everyone sort of pulled together um so yeah it was it was a it was a an amazing outcome me to the outside world it Jimmy was having to face the music wasn't it mean those press conferences there still good value so yeah so I was sitting there with him and yeah I he's Jimmy's amazing he can you know I know as I know him well and um you know knowing uh knowing how he operates but you know a lot there's a lot of hype in there but he's an interesting character because actually when he gets to known well he's very different from those press conferences and so on that's he's very much you know playing the game and um and then you go and have a a beer or a chat whatever he's is a very different person so yeah it was interesting observing how that all played out what was he like within the team at at that time he was he was good he was good I mean he he's a kind of guy Le by example you know there's no one fitter there's no one works harder um you know he's um yeah I think Le by example um um and I think um you know in that moment it was obviously you know just getting sort of hammered by by the Press things you know not going at all well you know you have to be you have to be a strong personality to be able to deal with that so thankfully he was I mean there are other Sailors I know if they've been in that position would have just melted um but uh you know that Aussie laran in him s sort it through which is great talking to Jimmy about that time about needing to win eight races on the bouts he gives much credit to Kyle Langford flying the wing of course Tom slingsby but what do you think actually made the difference how did that team go from 81 down from your perspective to yeah like I said it was everything really I mean it was that yeah the the biggest Factor was the change in the setup to the boat because you know we probably made it I don't know done the numbers exactly but it would have been something crazy like 10 15 20% impr Improvement upwind performance which is is is is huge uh so that uh I think that then gave the sailing team more confidence so was communicating better making better decisions um and uh and and obviously the Sha team did an in incredible job to hold thing together and I know Jimmy talked about you know breaking the control arm in the wing um before the start of the final race and again the guys jumping to it and patching things together I mean it was just so miraculous when you looked back at all the things that went wrong really and um yeah just uh incredible an incredible time but great for the sport because it it really I think put sailing certainly put the America's Cup back on the m so there you are on the stage all the confetti the joyous celebrations of let's face it an utterly improbable comeback and your hands are on the cup lifting the trophy I mean no British team has managed it since we first lost it and there you are wearing the Stars and Stripes how much did that moment solidify your resolve to do what you could to turn your back on Olympic sailing and focus on winning the cup back for Britain yeah uh like as I said it's always been an ambition since I was really a young kid and yeah amazing to be part of that to win the cup we're all there on the stage and and uh and enjoying that moment but there was definitely a part of me that felt this is this is great that's sort of one thing sort of ticked off the off the Todo list if you like um but it'd be much better if this was you know not no just that was a great team but you know next step is can we do it with a British team and so that that's what i' I'd already been looking at with starting B we've been racing in the World Series Russell been really helpful in terms of trying to help me set that team up and um so we had done the groundwork and then already to talking to people like um Keith Charles Dunston uh Chris bak and people like that who were were passionate about sailing and wanted to support a UK effort so on the back of the success of San Francisco coming back home I was amazed by the response how many people it sort of had attracted I had no idea being in San Francisco being relatively s of hidden away and coming home and you know people saying you know been watching sailing in the pub I mean no one watched you watched football and rugby and opponent watch sailing uh so clearly it sort of got some traction and those you know like I said Keith Charles Chris were were fantastic Michael grade um Robert Elliott um came in and was sort of a core group of helping me get things going but it was tough because we had we set ourselves a Target you know Joe grinley who's helped me out in the commercial side for God knows how many years now um with the Olympics and then the cup so we set ourselves a Target we had to raise 25 million by the end of the year so already then it was end of September and uh so you know I was then on the road funding financing road going around uh it was sponsored by JP Morgan for my Olympic campaign so I was actually living in New York at the time with Georgie um and uh so I spent quite a lot of time with JP Morgan I remember going to they had an event for some of their key leaders down in keus game and going and uh and meeting Jamie Diamond for the first time and trying to convince him to back a British team you know just JP Morgan Chase you know largest bank in the world American Bank you know why on Earth they can sponsor a British team for the America's Cup so I went to meet Jamie and he was sat having dinner with Stanley mccristal and cond Lisa Rice and I sat down started talking about the America's Cup which seemed completely outlandish really given the company he was in and he they'd had a bit to drink and then he said do you dance which anyone who knows me knows I'm the worst dancer going horrendous got zero Rhythm I said no you really don't I don't dance I'm not dancing he said come on you and me let's dance I like you don't you don't want to do that I'm not dancing me and you know bear in mind what I was asking him to contribute to the America's Cup I kind of thought well sh you know the guy wants to dance the guy wants to dance ended up dancing with Jamie Diamond CEO JP Morgan just thinking this is the most ridiculous scenario what the hell am I doing here and anyway we did that and he didn't he didn't back us not after dancing yeah it must have been the Dancing Yeah Yeah so um no that was a fascinating period putting that team together and some you know incredibly generous people you know like Charles and Keith and Chris bake Irvin ladw um forget people here Ro you know Roy bedo and you know all these all John John Wood Peter Dubin um Ian Taylor um there a great group that came together to to back the team and then we were able to go out and get the the sponsors as well so um it was a lot to put together in a short period of time um and it felt all felt a bit crazy um trying to do that but you know whil we didn't win the Cup last time but I think we at least put down the foundations for a team to build for the future which is what we're doing we had designers and tears cuz the poor guys had been really up against it I remember sitting in an office in London with five lawyers thinking what am I doing here none of us are actually going to lined up against one another probably in Anger before we start racing I mean such a different role for you as well I mean you used to being almost you know hired G in some ways don't you at the at the top of the talent tree and now your name's above the door you're in charge of so many aspects of the campaign you know it's down to you you know how did you react to I guess taking on all those different pressures well I mean the best thing Charles he was great sounding board and the first thing he said to me is like you know running businesses running teams the first thing you got to work out is that you're going to be way better off hiring people that are better than you you know whatever the sailing design you know it's about getting the best possible people um so that you know it's kind of obvious but it's is sound advice and so the tricky thing was trying to find um someone who could come in and take on CR role because you know there' been lots of examples in the cup of people trying to do everything they're running the team they're skippering the boat they're doing steering the boat they kind of doing everything and it's it's almost impossible so uh biggest challenge was trying to find the right person to come in in the CEO role and I was going down one route and then actually somebody introduced me to Martin Whit Marsh and went to see Martin up at his home in woking and his wife Debs and you know we've been about F you just know don't you when you meet someone you think that's the right thing so I knew within about three minutes that he was the kind of guy that we needed because we had this vision of the cup but also to try and build this business um around the cup and the Marine industry here on the south coast and and Martin what he'd achieved with McLaren and McLaren Technologies um yeah amazing opportunity to be able to get someone like that involved so Martin came on board and did a brilliant job really helping us build the team from from scratch and set set everything up as we did um but uh yeah it was it was it well it still is it's a challenge you know keeping that Focus core Focus as a sailor alongside everything else that's going on in the team but you know the secret is having having the best people around you you possibly can looking back at that last campaign briefly I mean it's it's notoriously hard to win for a startup team isn't it but you got you got solid funding yeah you had a great looking team set up and on the surface it all looked pretty good you know with the benefit of hindsight where did the team lose the last cup do you think well we never we were never able to catch up on the technical front um and it's it's not only having the best people we had some really great designers smart people you know Andy Clon huge amount of experience running the design team and some great people also came in from Formula 1 um but that IP that you build up through campaigns I mean you look at emis I think that was a great example as well so struggled big time in the first campaign but that IP that they'd learned developed they really put that to good good use the second time around and and and you know with many people's hot pick going into the Cup itself so that was where we really challenged to we struggle to catch up on the on the IP front and we also uh we also got we got stuck in trying to test on the water too much we had a good simulator James roach came across from McLaren set up the simulator and still running that and doing a great job for us but yeah know we we put too much focus on trying to test on the water rather than just backing the simulator and focusing on that and doing the development through that which is which is pretty much what the Kiwi did um so that was probably our strategic error if you like and and then just being able to like I say catch up on the on the design front so going into it we were massively on the back foot I mean you know it was embarrassing really you know being in in Bermuda we couldn't even s around the around the track in the practice races because our our systems weren't efficient enough at that point you know our foils our foils weren't our our development foils were were um were not good um but we made some amazing St you know the final sets of all round foils that we had were pretty good um we our designers were pretty clever with um a few things we did with the Rudders and um and the systems got a lot better so actually by the point we got to the competition I remember we raced against emis in the first race and everyone had written us off you know and it was kind of annoying you'd read some of the stuff try not to read it every now you s of read something with it you know everyone's just sort of writing you off and FR kind of think so anyway we went the first race before the race against arus we actually lined up with them and you did a short practice in the morning then you went back did the duck out and then came out and RAC and then that practice actually lined up against them and about 10 knots of Breeze and for the first time ever that we sailed against anyone else in in an F50 or ac50 as it was then we actually were on the pace you know and I remember Giles was down to Leeward looking at them and sort of calling the relatives and he was kind of in disbelief the fact that we're actually holding our own or perhaps even gaining a little bit and I think everyone else was pretty astonished as as well so we went into the race we had a nice start got ahead and we we kind of managed to hold our lead around the course amazing I mean we had designers in tears because the poor guys had been really up against it you know they'd been taking a battering because we've been off the pace but actually you know we got ourselves somewhat on the pace I mean this was we had a window really of I think on our allpurpose boards about you know 10 to 13 14 knots something like that where we were kind of competitive we struggled a bit but we kind of competitive and so we won that race that was a huge boost for the team and then as you mentioned earlier the second race we had this issue we came together with the Japanese we just started using twist control on the wheel where I was flying the boat and we'd only been using it for two or three days again we were pretty late behind behind the other teams on some of this stuff and basically we hadn't been able to find tune it so it was um it was quite it's a bit like a throttle really and um as the Japanese came into hookers I put in more rake uh to lift the boat out of the water but just you know the fact not being used to it just put in way too much rake and so the boat shot up out of the water and did this big sideways slide and kind of a danger in those boats it it you know happens quite a lot and um but obviously this wasn't a good time to do it land Square on the on the Japanese which I don't think any of them were particularly impressed by I know I know Dean Dean wasn't when I saw him afterwards but um yeah I mean it was it was my my mistake you know so I took it on the chin apologized but uh yeah I don't think they were too happy about it Ben you're used to being in scenario where you're where you can contend yeah for a win and here you are in Bermuda you know quite far out as you say you're on the back foot you know and it's your team it's your reputation at home in the UK it's a it's been a massive deal it's a huge publicity you know we're going to bring the cup home yeah personally for you at that time you know how hard was it all yeah it was the most difficult thing I've ever done because yeah I'm sort of put the team together leading it a lot of expectation we'd won the World Series so kind of in a way whil that was great from a sailing perspective that just kind of heaped more expectation on the whole thing and knowing before we even went that we were massively behind you know we probably weren't almost you know you never give up but probably we weren't going to win it and then trying to keep the team going keep positive whilst things were clearly you know we were clearly off the pace was very very difficult um and then the competition itself um was was frustrating um you know I was really I I mean I still said this a lot I was really proud of the team that they they held it together um because at one point it really did like a bit of a lost cause but they held it together we made a lot of big gains and we were you know we were somewhat competitive okay we we lost to the kiwis in the end but you know a few it wouldn't have taken too much to Chang there they would clearly done a better job with faster but if you think about that cap size we lost two races our wing broke down um and you know another few things going differently um we were we were sort of competitive um and like I said the team did a I think the team stuck together and did a good job all things considered I often wonder Ben I mean at the time am I right memory wise that you had much of the commitment and funding in place for a two cup campaign you're there you're watching the Cup itself unfold and as we know the winner writes the rules so you must you must have had a preference as a sailor as a team principal as as an owner of a team what are you thinking back in Bermuda did you want a totally new AC class as we've now seen or did you want things to say similar to the ac50 class as it was I mean how did all that work out yeah so you know we had put a lot of work work into the framework agreement Martin was actually quite instrumental in that with his experience similar experiences in Formula 1 so he worked quite closely and well with Russell on that and all other teams apart from the kiwis you know were behind that and we obviously I was behind that because as a principle I could see the costs were really high as if we could bring it back to a sort of format that was justifiable commercially then you can start building something and build something for the long term you know stop start changing boats all the time the high cost mean that it's really really hard to grow the the sports certainly grow the America's Cup so that was uh you know as it would became more and more clear that the kiwis were probably going to win that was obviously a disappointment um and obviously a disappointment that we hadn't been able to get ourselves you know performing better and get further along the competition but I mean my thought process was there's no way we can leave it like this we've got to got to keep going so I yeah I kind of I kind of um not threw everyone on the bus but I just thought well the only way to do that is to go and tell everyone that we're doing it and you know the thankfully the Land Rovers of this world and and Keith and Charles and and the other backers were were kind of supportive and said well yeah okay I guess so I guess we are doing it if you just told everyone we're doing it so we didn't really we didn't actually have any anything committed but they were they were amazing they came in and we started talking about how we could rebuild the team Land Rover resigned a lot of our sponsors resigned to go again um and uh then we had to go through this process of course waiting for what the boat was going to be what the kwis and the Italians had decided and that took a while um to be fair they they turned things around about as quickly as you probably could but it did still took a good six to eight months and then once it was clear what the program was looking like most importantly what the boat was looking like uh then it was clear it was going to cost a lot more than we thought and the our model was going to be it was going to be a serious push to get the financing in place and then for a mutual friend I was introduced to Jim ratliffe and we you know it's been talked about been impressed we literally went and caught up in a club in London had had had a couple of beers and pretty much in space of a couple of hours he decided he was he was into it likes loves a challenge doesn't get any bigger than this and um you know passionate Brit but back in British sports so um he he he said he'd do it but this was became then became very difficult because you know he you know it's inos people say it's the biggest business you've never heard of until recently and so part of that was this needs to be an inos team you know we don't want we haven't got the space unfortunately for the other partners and so that was a difficult period for me then putting this you know this um switch and the team around from you know um you know commercial backing and private investment to just one one sole sponsor um but you know to everyone's credit who was involved um they all could see um what needed to be done how much it was going to cost and and I think in the end agreed that this was the right to give the bo the team the best chance to be successful this was the right move to make it can't have been easy I mean in the end with be like like a real family or was you know on the mission it was very British it was and I I mean I had some amazing so you probably the chat called Bill Reed he's the head of mergers and Acquisitions for inos so I had to really negotiate with Bill how we were going to do this and I remember one point sitting in an office in London with five lawyers thinking what the hell am I doing what am I doing here and um you know life used to be so simple when I was sailing around in my laser on my own you know um but we did I mean we got there in the end it was it was pretty tricky at times but yeah it was amazing insight into that world and doing deals and that sort of thing and inos you know is an amazing company you know Jim rackliff himself is amazing guy um but inos it's success um in the corporate world um yeah it's it's been it's been a real eye opener seeing how they operate and the success that they've had how has that investment changed you know where you now Focus your attention well it's it's and this was the you know big reason for making the switch was you know one one backer you're much more focused um so the other key part of this was was uh on the back of um Bermuda um Martin had done his bit and he kind of wanted to move away and you know the amount of time and focus it it wasn't really the right thing for him and also trying to bring in someone with uh you know an America's Cup track record so Grant getting Grant to come over was a big deal um that took a bit of convincing but managed to convince him in the end um uh so you know Grant getting Grant helping restructure the team then getting the FI financing in place that's meant that we we've been been able to be much more focused and and also set set a strategy around knowing that we got a budget in place whereas last time we we had a desired budget that we were kind of planning around but we actually we almost got there we didn't quite get there but you know trying to set a strategy around that's hard what does Grant simmer add to it all why him ah Grant just bags of experience you know he's seen everything in the cup that's got to throw up in the last 30 odd years he's you know being at the top of the game in every aspect be that as a sailor or designer or manager so he gets the whole picture and I think that's really helpful because you know you can go through certain decisions and again he get he gets it from every angle um and there aren't that many people who've got that big picture um so that that's really Grant grants expertise and yeah he and I have worked together for quite a long time now um so got a good relationship and good level of trust which is kind of what you need talk to us about the ac75 we spoke to your head of design Nick Hy for a cup design podcast a few months back yeah so we we know a lot about the books themselves but from the sailor's perspective they can look a little intimidating I mean how much are you enjoying sailing the the ac75 and how much is it is it really pushing the envelope yeah like I mean they're real Beast you know they're a bit like the ac72 in terms of the scale and the power and the performance actually strikingly similar uh you know technically they're again a maner in terms of design time and hours and focus um I mean a huge amount of fun to sale I mean pretty tricky to sale because obviously you've been got one Rider and if you lose that you're in all sorts of bother so that's a challenge and then you know there's certain elements you know I think some people are for it some I mean the double um film main I think Frank is a bit of a waste of time um but that's it is what it is can't change that um you know I think I think like I said earlier it's got a lot of similarities to 2013 and and of course the ac72 and none of us are actually going to lined up against one another properly in Anger before we start racing in the in the Challenger Series at least so those teams that can react quickly and fast are going to that's what that's what it's going to take um because there's going to be a lot huge amount of development at the last minute so I mean we've got a great team here I think we are well set up to do that but you know I'm pretty certain that's what it's going to require um but yeah they they're a they're serious challenge both on and off the water what do you make of what you've seen of your Rivals yeah Team New Zealand as you'd expect you know they're well run been at it a long time got good people good Sailors the first boat I like it's a good boat um good concept yeah I mean they're going to be incredibly tough to be on home Waters um the Italian I think you know pra have done a good job you know again their boat it's it's a good boat um I think they've been really Innovative in a lot of their Concepts which is good and they've got you know great again great Sailors and they've been at it a long time so they they they've got their processes in place and so on so I think they will they will be really strong actually and the Americans a bit like ourselves you know kind of got the class roll a bit later they're a new organization but I think from what I've seen for a new organization okay they've been doing two p52s and mini Maxes and Terry's running that but I think actually to their credit they've done a really good job as a new team to build that up and and you know I don't know but from what it looks like to me they kind of met their their deadlines in terms of build manufacturing and that's often as a new organization can often be really hard so and again great Sailors great designers so I think all the teams are going to be really strong um well they all certainly on paper really strong teams so it's going to be it's going to be a real tight one I think um but the big you know I said again um this fact that no one will have really lined up properly someone's going to have got a jump from somewhere and then everyone else will be trying to catch up and whether or not you can do that in time and surpass that that will be that'll be the key you're going to have to be nimble yeah yeah let's talk about the cup generally Ben I mean it's obviously hugely important to you for a number of reasons how important would it be for you personally if sir Ben angley's name went down in the Cup's incredible long history as the man that finally brought the cup back to the British trophy cabinet well I mean personally yeah it would be amazing but it's more really it's obviously the team that does it so it's to me it's about well first and foremost just getting that trophy back Jamie Sheldon who's a Commodore the yacht Squadron he's just a great guy it's been one of the actual uh many of this is is building a relationship with Jamie and his wife Susie they're great fun and uh you know the joy that I think for all of us to get that America's cut back on that yacht Squadron mantle piece that would be massive for for British sailing and and British sport really so I think that's not just personally but I know the whole team that's what motivates us to do this because it is hard work the cup I'm sure everyone spoken to it it sounds glamorous it can be glamorous at times when you get to competition but most of all it's just bloody hard work and you've got to really want to do it it to do it well and um and the team here do that I mean they work incredibly hard and they're motivated so that's why we do it yeah but what about for you personally yeah I'd be the same as that you know that's what I'm motivated to do it because I want to get the America's Cup back on that mental piece and that would be you know an amazing achievement for all of us and you know I'd be part of that so um yeah be proud um it'd be another thing ticked off that list does it frustr great you all B I mean we've seen ticker tape parades for England's rugby team cricket teams and in Australia when the Aussies won the cup of course and in New Zealand but it's hard to imagine that here in the UK despite the America's Cup being the trophy we gave away and have never won back it's almost a living example of British sporting failure so to win it would be a huge sporting and historical significance how big an achievement do you think it would be perceived publicly I think it would be I think it would be pretty massive I think like you say when you look back to the history and the fact that we've never won it we never even come close to winning it really um I think that's why people are a bit sort of subdued maybe in the UK towards the cup you look at other as you mentioned some of the other countries where they have W and it's been huge I mean look at you know Switzerland no one ever thought Switzerland would have won the America's Cup um so I think we do have a very strong Maritime presence obviously it's an island nation our Maritime history here in Portmouth as as a center of that so I think you know if we can actually get the team to the point of looking like it's got half a chance of winning it then I think we'll find that that people will pay attention in a in a big way and it would be one of those you know you think back to cycling obviously cycling is a much bigger sport but that moment when it looked like geez you know Bradley Wiggins might actually win the tourance here wow I mean that was just a huge moment in in British Sport and I think it would be you know something similar to that is there anything bigger in sailing in our sport do you think there's anything you could achieve that would be more important to you than winning the americ cup no no it's the the the history of the cup you know the fact it's the only thing really that we've never won in sailing as far as I can can think of um you know we've had amazing success offshore people like Ellen MacArthur and and now Alex Thompson going for the for the vond and hopefully he can knock that one off um and way back you know Robin KNX Johnson who's local here to Portsmouth who I've got to know very well over the years he's an amazing guy and um you know all the way back for our Maritime history the you know the Cup's the only thing um and it still staggers me when you think of the engineering Talent design Talent um the sort of people who have the Firepower and and a passionate about backing sailing in the UK and all of our amazing Sailors that we've had over the years it still astounds me that we've never been able to put it together but you have to have the three key elements you've got to have the money you've got to have the right design technical expertise and you got the right Sailors and for whatever reason we've never been able to put all that together at once but I hope I think that finally we we've got that and we we're building a team that can do is you know one thing to win it but then it's to to sustain that and to keep going and that's I think you look at Team New Zealand you know you really have to take your hat off to them how theyve managed to do that okay they had that blip and then Grant Dalton came in and managed to rebuild the team so they they've been in the cup game what now for almost 30 years and that experience that you build up time after time it's you know it's a little bit like our Olympic program which is traditionally does very very well because you build that knowhow you get the confidence we know we can win this and this is a process and that's what you're going to build up what we're trying to build up with this team Ben I started this podcast talking about when we first met an awful lot has happened since then hasn't it I mean you've achieved you've achieved so much as we sit here now in your America's Cup base the black carbon ac75 outside can you tell me Ben how has it changed you how different are you now from that talented 14-year-old boy in the dinner queue uh well i' you know like everybody else you go through life experiences and and both through sailing and Well on and off the water things have changed as they in inevitably they do um I'm obviously not as shy as I once was um but but uh I think probably still underlying is that passion for the sport and and being on the water and even these last three months not being able to sail like it has for everybody else been really frustrating and I remember the first moment I take the boat across from benbridge which those it's about five miles on the other side of across the solent to the island white just getting back out on that boat that sensation of the water running under the boat and that sense of Freedom that you get when you're in a boat that's still the same as powerful for me as it was when I was six years old or whatever it was so I'm really fortunate I think I do genuinely love sailing and I'll you know always sail and um and so yeah I think I think that's that's the key I'm yeah really really lucky to be able to be able to say that I can do that that's genuinely my passion is is is my career and what what I'm able to do benley thank [Music] you the passion and love of sailing by one of the most decorated Sailors of all time I do hope you've enjoyed our time with Ben we've seen some real insights into his unprecedented career but not just on the water it's fascinating to hear what it takes to try and get a viable America's Cup team up and running and in that endeavor we do of course wish him all the very best we'd love to hear from you so please send us any feedback it's all important in the podcast world so please let me know what you think write a review and do please subscribe on whatever platform you're listening to us on the podcast is as ever produced by Tim at vertigo films a massive thanks to Tim for all his time and hard work bringing you these lessons and a big thanks to Ben and his team at inas Team UK for making it all happen I also want to say a quick thanks to SGP for letting us use some of their footage from Sydney in promoting the podcast and to the wonderful Rick Tomlinson Rick took those great pictures of bay at London 2012 that you may have seen on my social media channels so Rick thanks so much for digging those out for us so that's it from me until next time thank you so much for listening and say safe [Music] everyone this is Castle One race officer speaking PR are coming here press are coming we're 1.5 below two guys here boys we're looking at 105 of 42 42 this is Castle one standing by out