Bonus! - Pt. 1 - The Damned United (CC)

[Music] hello and welcome to the contrarians where we're right and you're wrong before we get to the show let's get the pleasantries out of the way first of all our website if you want more information about our little podcast go to we are the contrarians tocom that's where you'll find links to our old episodes to our Patron Channel and to our awesome contan merch you can show your support by buying a contrarian mug or a pillow I like the laptop bags myself second of all if you enjoy the show tell your friends or even go a step further and leave us a five-star review on whatever platform you use to listen to your podcasts finally if you want to reach out directly to us that's what social media is for find us on Twitter and Instagram @ contrarian prime or check out our Facebook page at facebook.com/ contrarian pre Julio runs our official Twitter account @ contrarian Prime but if you want to give me a piece of your mind or just want to Banter about pro wrestling you can follow me at contrarian Alex that's it that's our intro now time for the show is [Music] our and we are recording for contan corner for the Damned United hello and welcome to the contrarians where we're right and you're wrong my name is Alex joined as always by my co-host and friend my co-pilot down the path of the contrary Julio olera Julio how are you doing this evening I thought we're done with sports Alex I thought we're done with sports for a while and you just you dragged me back in actually it wasn't you I was about to say yeah it well okay it was you a little bit because uh this is a a patron pick as as it is the tradition with our bonus episodes every month and uh said Patron he gave was four options and it was you I put it up to you I said Alex has the power cuz I'm good with any of these and you went with the sports movie so in a way it was you do you recall what the other ones were cuz I remember my motivation being like this one sounded the most interesting out of the ones I had not seen yet so it was I know the one that you rejected outright which was uh Tim Burton's musical Sweeney Todd swey Todd yes I do remember that that's the one that you said I can tell you right away no to that one uh there was a Pacino uh was it Dog Day Afternoon I believe so which is a great movie don't get me wrong I haven't seen it so and then the final one was called Chum scrubber which neither of us even knew about I don't even know what a Chum scrubber is yeah I remember us reading about it but um yeah I mean Sports and all uh it's not your traditional American Sports which is good uh for us expanding our Horizons I was curious in this movie they in the title cards at the end they refer to it as soccer a few times I'm like isn't that kind of sacrilege but is it it's football I mean growing up I yeah it was football to me but I I I thought that in you know the rest of the world it was that's how you differentiate it it's like football and soccer well I prefer to call the NFL and things of that sorts American football uhhuh that's what we call it in in Peru yeah that's well because it see it seems uh if I can do anything to be less American and just completely like xenophobic then you know and I I was just saying I was surprised to see that at the end but it was um a returning director who we have a rather tumultuous relationship with your Nemesis yeah and it was something neither of us had seen with some actors we were familiar with and thought it had the the greatest uh chances of I don't know making an impact so to speak so yes we're here today to discuss Tom Hooper's 2009 the Damned United starring Wesley Snipes himself Michael Sheen Timothy Spa returning Champion Timothy Spa that's right baby uh colem meanie how I I never know how to pronounce that dude's first name okay so I've heard I always thought it was col because that's that's how you read it right and then I've heard people say colum that can make sense too I can't argue with that because I really don't know any better colum Mei from H Star Trek Fame that's what I know him from I'm curious you probably know him as just like a a that guy right yeah he's a he's a big that guy yeah he's Chief O'Brien on uh Star Trek next Generation and uh Deep Space 9 he was in charge of the transporter I remember he was in Con Air right his uh his license plate is ass kicker I'm trying to remember there's something else yes I'm going through his filmography right now and I was trying to figure out what it was it's uh Get Him to the Greek he plays Alis Snow's dad oh God I'm not saying it's a good movie but he's good in it poor col mini an actor with a filmography that probably hits the hundreds and uh and that's going to be the the thing that he'll be remembered for uh probably not but it's something that I recall he was in layer cake also which that when that movie came out I was in college and that was like a huge like oh have you seen layer cake yet not to always make this comparison but it's like layer cake is is Guy Richie without guy Richie I think that was it a bunch of of people that were 18 were watching it like oh man this is crazy world bending and then it looks like he was in an episode of mcgyver in 1981 is Dr Irwin Malcolm which that's just fantastic he goes way back Co Min we're talking about him like he's the lead in this movie I mean he has one of the most driving force yeah yeah he's like the the motivation of the of our protagonist um yeah Michael Sheen who I've never seen in a leading role before that was kind of impressive to see uh memorable as always and I'm pretty much done calling him Michael Sheen he will be Wesley Snipes for all of our 30 Rock Fans out there Julio who um who brought this across our desk which one of our wonderful patrons threw this our way it is Ben Ben from film Busters also known as film Busters Ben he he just demanded it he said it's my turn and you okay to be fair and I think we might have discussed this in the previous episode uh he went easy on us on this one in the sense that he gave us those four choices that we talked about where he got Stern is in the the patron exclusive pick because that's where he didn't give us any options he just said you guys are doing the the first two episodes of the Tex in the city reboot relaunch and and then but when it came to the main feet he was like okay you guys can do one of these four I think and we'll go more in in in depth in this uh on the second half in real talk but uh I think he likes this one uh yeah I'm curious to see what his thoughts are about it so I mean he's British and there's a movie about British sports people yes that that's a that's a way of putting it I imagine that he he takes Pride on it I don't know ER I do know that Ben likes Sports I've I've heard there's times where on on their show like him and Adam will start talking about sports and you get hear Paul's eyes just glazing over so I I think that this is probably a movie that Ben enjoys and he sens us uh he sent me a lot of uh messages about it that I haven't read because I'm saving those for real talk so we like I said we'll we'll go in depth on Ben's opinions and ours our real opinions in the second half of the show all right so Ben from film Busters one of our wonderful patrons has brought this across our desk he threw it down he said get to work he gave us 44 days and if we don't do a good enough job in that time he will can us uh he said it's on Tubi get to it exactly we'll explain a little bit more about our Patron in our second half but that leads us to going ahead explaining what it is we do here why the even thought of someone paying us to do a movie would exist uh if this is your first time listening to the contrarians you're probably asking yourself that question and what we do here on the contrarians is Rage Against The Rotten Tomatoes machine that is our battlecry we will find a movie on Rotten Tomatoes that is highly rated A lot of times known as certified fresh and what we'll do is make a case for maybe why that uh rating doesn't tell the whole story so to speak maybe why that percentage doesn't uh belong sometimes movies we cover we feel have uh some poor acting some poor narrative choices bad screenwriting the score is a bit off just things that in general we feel critics swept under the rug in favor of giving it one of those delicious intellectual properties one of those trademarked logos the certified fresh um conversely we'll find a film on Rotten Tomatoes uh which we usually shoot about 30% and Below one of those nasty green splotches known as rotten and as you would have guessed argue for the positive Merit in that film under celebrated acting bold direction or storytelling choices etc etc all in an attempt to say that artist subjective you can be as over the Moon about something as you want to be or as cold and cynical uh if you have your heart set to it as you can be and also that Rotten Tomatoes doesn't always tell the whole story uh being that the Damned United is 92% on Rotten Tomatoes uh we will in the first portion of this known as contrarian's corner be making an argument against it and pointing out its flaws errors and foibles which isn't typically hard to do in a Tom Hooper film now Julio we talked a little bit about uh how this is our first time watching it so naturally if someone's listening to this they might be curious how we really feel about it and if that's the case they just have to tune in to part two the second half of this podcast that's correct part two apply title real talk is where we tell you how we really feel about the movie regardless of its run Tomato score we just dropped the gimmick and we are fully honest about our feelings uh not just with the audience but with each other going into real talk I have no idea how Alex feels about the damn United Alex has no idea how I feel about the damn United but Alex and listeners know how I feel about sports in general so maybe that can give you a hint about my how I reacted to this uh 1 hour and 44 minute epic about soccer 37 minutes 37 well it felt like 44 all right 92% as I mentioned Julio um pretty positive reception to this at least critic the second half we'll uh discuss some of the reaction to it from a historical standpoint uh but critically it received several nominations uh several satellite Award nominations British independent film award for uh Jim Broadband alfs award Jim Broadband Jesus I know they were digging deep to find somebody to give an award to in this one the London film critic Circle uh Timothy Spa the best supporting Act actor which and uh Michael Sheen got a satellite award Timothy Spa got a supporting actor these were all nominations they didn't come through and then Writers Guild of Great Britain uh nominated Peter Morgan for best feature screenplay so that's all in an effort to say people liked it what exactly were the folks that are qualified to post on Rotten Tomatoes what were they saying about it oh the critics I I wish I could tell which of these are British critics versus just American critics but e either way they're they're all fresh quotes from The Run Tomatoes website uh we'll start with Simon Moto from Quick flicks who says if soccer is a Shakespearean drama then the Damned United is Richard III okay I don't even know what that means I don't either would you call soccer Shakespearean would you call any sport Shakespearean uh this is where I think our separation of passion for sports is definitely uh separated cuz yes you call wrestling Shakespearean well that's different because it's written and scripted but like in a like there's plenty of like examples I could bring up of boxing or you know mixed martial arts that play out in a Shakespearean nature and American football and football both man yeah there there's some definite emotion and passion that goes into it that would make some of the great play rights be like God damn it why didn't I think of that moving on Simon Foster from sbs.com do australia. Au uh Morgan Hooper and Sheen have crafted a moving funny and loving tribute to the spirit of a man who effortlessly defined the spirit of the greatest sport ever H greatest sport ever I mean I don't know I've never heard soccer be called that O Brother really we we another hanging out with the right people well just since we have a unusual large contingent of European and uh Australian I don't know if football means as much to them um I mean Alex I came from South America like we we take soccer seriously but I don't think that we take it as seriously as to say that it's the greatest sport ever no you're you're not as crazy as those Brits man that apparently no there's I mean if I would probably say like boxing is the greatest sport ever because it's like the sport of man it was invented as as long as men have been standing upright but uh there's there's nothing to it's always funny to me because Americans you know the NFL is is a Powerhouse and they do every season do those International games in London and um Etc and they draw because it's kind of an attraction and American football does have international viewers but then every four years when the World Cup comes around everyone is reminded what the number one sport in the world is and that's soccer and it's not even [ __ ] close Okay so we're talking about money we're talking about just which I get my I'm talking about eyeballs like the amount of people that watch and engage in it right but but the reason that we know about those eyeballs is because of the the money that they produce I guess you know for the sport and I think there's something to say of you know soccer is the sport that has a World Cup that is the most competitive and I think that speaks to how it's the most universal sport yeah there's like people that play American football in different countries and baseball obviously like baseball's gigantic in Japan uh but that's and it's like basketball too there's no basketball World Cup because all the US teams would just trounce all of them when it's in the Olympics and [ __ ] that's how it usually plays out it's just what I'm trying to say is you would find a lot of people a lot more people that agree with that sentiment internationally than you would think all right next Joe Williams from the St Louis Post Dispatch two things that the British know that most Americans don't Michael Sheen is the best actor in the english- speaking world and soccer is the only football that matters it's getting out of control Alex okay yeah I I like both things but that's like like that's something I would tweet like about wrestling or something two things that most Americans do know Hulk Hogan is the best wrestler in the world and wrestling is the only sport that matters Jesus I mean Timothy Spa is in the same [ __ ] movie and has he did Michael Sheen has he done anything like huge that he got a bunch of notoriety for uh domestically no I mean that's the that's the thing that's the that's the the story of uh of Michael Sheen is that he is uh the Lesser Sheen he's not Martin Sheen he's not Charlie Sheen he's not even Emilio Estes but but he's cursed with the last name that puts a lot of pressure on him and so far he hasn't lived up to it he's like Adam Baldwin you know he's not really a Baldwin but still when you see his name you expect the greatness of the Baldwins to come from him I forgot he was in the twi tlight movies yep that's right yep I'm sure he really regrets that from a financial perspective because I won't eat and won't sleep until I've taken whatever that man's achieved and beaten it all right so released on March 27th of 2009 the Damned United had a budget of $10 million I believe this is the worldwide box office return was just over 4 million so regarded as a box office bomb however like we said critics were making especially those on Rotten Tomatoes that accumulated that 92% were making insanely hyperbolic claims about it the consensus on Rotten Tomatoes reads better than your average football pick damned United is carried by another star turn from Michael Sheen as Brian cloth Alex I looked I looked everywhere for a quote that said the damn United is damn good and I couldn't find it oh what a shame yeah it starts off off with one of their uh soccer chance soccer anthems whatever the proper vernacular is that reminded me of um you know Oasis the Gallagher brothers are diard uh Man City Manchester City and then there's also Manchester United are you familiar of these football clubs have you ever heard of either of these uh my wife brings up a Manu every now and then I can't remember if she's a fan or if she is uh a foe if for I'm sure there's some listening that understand it but for those that don't uh N Gallagher did hot ones once and talked about like it's not like a joke to them and it's not like like even as tribal as American football seems It's a completely different level like he just talks about you're you're born either a man city or a man united person man you and that's it like you can't change it and it's it's just hearing him speak about it and they're like die hard uh Man City and when I saw N Gallagher on concert I walked in before like the show had started and I geeked out just cuz you know his amp had a man city uh flag draped over it and anyway the whole point is when this opened with the their soccer chant about you know it was to the tune of Glory Glory Hallelujah uh when they used to play shows in like Manchester and [ __ ] they would do who the [ __ ] is man united they would lead the crowd and that you know the crowd would be split oh god dude this is why I left Peru just the the fanatism I just that's my first note is like uh soccer it I I just I mean I'm sorry this there's no way that Ben could have known this like this movie was never going to stand a chance with me regardless of quality just because of the the culture that is that just envelops it from beginning to end and uh you know only way that I could have maybe have liked this movie if it would be if it was actively making fun of football fans but soccer fans even uh but that's not what it is this is very much about like how an American movie like that with Pat and Oswald called big fan that it makes but it's that's like a dark comedy right yes but it it calls out what you're saying it just like the insanity that some of these f fans the levels they'll stoop to but there was a a Peruvian soap opera called uh I guess it translates to uh street street tribes which was about basically the two big soccer teams in Peru are uh uh universitario and alansa Lima or at least that that was they were the two big ones when I was you know when I lived there and uh and they were you know tribal like fans they would go and just they get violent and they get Rowdy and they would be a danger to society all in the name of a sport was that the uh Peruvian version or remake of uh Green Street Hooligans I mean it would be the the I I think it predates Green Street holigans oh but you know it just shows that we are we're all so much alike across the [Music] world uh but anyway yeah this is from the beginning I just knew this movie was not for me and and I'm like all right well do what you can Michael Sheen but I've seen your movies before and it's not like you were the Tipping Point on whether I liked it or not so good luck my friend we're on leads leads United uh after failing to qualify for the 1974 FIFA World Cup England manager Alf Ramsey is replaced by Don Revy this is co Mei the highly successful manager of leads United revy's replacement at leads is Brian cloth Michael Sheen the former manager of Darby County and a fierce critic of leads because of their violent and physical style of play Under R's management furthermore Claus longtime assistant Peter Taylor this is our boy Timothy Spa has not joined him uh so this movie jumps back and forth with timelines but Julio for the sake of our coverage here let's save all the historical accuracy and you know what actually happened and any and all knowledge of this for the second half and just cover this as the movie is we going to cover it as if it was fiction yes okay and what that does from a movie perspective is Tom Hooper is not subtle I think we've talked about that before we we've seen we've discussed the King speech uh and he just spends the opening Salvo here the opening the length of the opening credits of the Watchmen uh he just spends the opening stanza here establishing that Wesley Snipes uh Brian cloth is just a real cocky son of a [ __ ] and we've talked about in movies you can accomplish [ __ ] in one line and if he just had some kind of Quip or something you would catch that but I mean were you already seeing this of like okay is this going to be the Michael Sheen show I mean clearly and I mean you know part of me can't blame the guy because you're right I haven't really I can't think of other Michael Sheen vehicles I think maybe the closest is uh the queen cuz he plays uh he plays Tony Blair the the prime minister in that one but really the Queen is the real star there I mean that's why she I think I'm pretty sure um she got an Oscar nomination for that um Helen mirin mhm so so I mean even that which is kind of like maybe his most high-profile work uh before this I mean that's uh it's not the the Michael Sheen show and then what else he was in Frost Nixon same thing that is the recently canceled Frank lella uh show not you know people remember his lela's turn as Nixon more than they remember Sheen's turn as as Frost and and so on so here it is like they give him the opportunity to be the big cheese with no competition it's like this is you and hair piled high baby yes put on that smile here's pages and pages of dialogue have at it man you've earned it show the world that you can you can be the next Avenger and uh I mean you know he goes for it wouldn't you the result is a little overwhelming a he come across as a tryhard but uh I mean I don't know I I I I couldn't say that I wouldn't do the same thing if I was an actor and I was finally given a role where the attention is going to be 100% on me uh most of the time I think that it wouldn't be a problem if there was more meat to the character but he is uh he's all show like at some point Timothy Spa tells him yeah you're the razzled dazle and and I'm the real deal and I couldn't agree more I was like you know the movie should have been about Timothy Spa we go back six years earlier 1968 and we learned that cloth uh has a deep rooted rivalry he's got a rock scene esque rivalry with uh well Leeds United as he was the manager of Darby County um who they played in different divisions and so this is where we get kind of our American sports fans can see this kind of as the the seating that they do for um you know different types of tournaments and things of that nature especially in the college realm so R lost like I don't what the divisions are I don't know why they pick some like I know the basics of a draft but so what they did was they they pick one of the shittier like which is yeah well like seating in college football typically like especially when they do March mandison [ __ ] it's like first versus 16th second versus 15th and then there's a game like in the middle that's like the you know two evenly matched teams uh that's where the you know bracket Buster phrase comes from but with this in this particular case this looked more of like a lottery type drawing and hopefully one of our English sports fans can educate us on this but basically it looks like what happened is um the shitty team in the second division being Darby County gets to play um leads and so it's this big huge like happening that leads United is going to come to their town and uh there's a funny line I wrote down here of the groundskeepers taking care of the field and Michael Sheen says to him you know we want this to look good for when they get here and he's like okay well then you can't [ __ ] train on it and so then it shows them like in different parts of the Town training and whatnot but Alex here here's a challenge for you name one single player in the Darby team oh I don't know the the only players that we really get highlighted are um [ __ ] dials and Bremer but they play for Leeds yeah yeah no Leeds yeah because Leeds has you know U the guy from SN on it so you get at least Ste grah yeah Steven Graham uh but yeah there there's nobody and I was thinking what a waste of uh not casting there's no there's no Chris Pratt there's no Chris Pratt I I was thinking um you know who' be perfect in this movie and I don't know what his agent was like as sleep at the wheel or what but uh this is a a movie for Yan Bremer who you know we know from uh in the on this show we've talked about him on um Snowpiercer he's the guy that loses his arm yes you know and you know he's in train spotting he's he's in a whole bunch of movies he always shows up he's like he's that guy you know in like European British movies with the you know wacky attitude you know he would been a memorable player I I couldn't tell you a single thing about the players in the uh in Darby because it's all about [ __ ] Michael Sheen you know the wrestled Dazzle guy but also as much as I appreciate the relevance of the rock Cena comparison this is more as if the rock had never engaged Cena like if Cena had been talking about him for years and The Rock had never really acknowledged the the feud uh because it's pretty one-sided fair enough and that's what plays in here is um Revy pays no mind to cloth as he comes to Derby uh they beat them and this so begins like this losing streak that they have uh and he did all this work of aiming to impress he cleaned up the clubhouse and you know made everything as presentable as possible got this nice bottle of wine they would share afterwards and he didn't so much as shake his hand and it comes out he says I'm going to beat him if it's the last thing I do so sets Brian cloth on this lifelong mission to do whatever he can to defeat col Mei if this was a musical this would be his I want song exactly so they're gonna do what they can to rebuild their team they start by acquiring a veteran for their team Dave mcai and that this is just like the [ __ ] David Justice discussion in Moneyball where it's just like he's 150 and they go to sign him they go to his house they show up there and they're like hey can we talk to you he he makes a note he said it's illegal to sign anybody on the Sabbath which I'm very curious if that's legitimate or not I thought that was more interesting than anything else that was happening and of course there's the followup it never it never comes back up again I thought it was going to be one of those uh Jerry Maguire situations where last minute this guy signs with someone else they like sorry I gave you my word but there's no paper there's no signature you know I don't do contracts but what you do have is my word and it's stronger than oak so they sign maai they explain to him yeah we we need you just is kind of like the guy who's you know directing traffic on the field using him as a vet for his knowledge um [ __ ] Timothy Spa calls his head his loaf he said so he can be out there and use his Loaf and help the younger players just thought that was fantastic so we we're restructuring the team we get some other new blood in there we go to a montage uh and this something I just have never cared for and it really bothers me in this Montage we mix real footage of The Happening in with like spliced in shots of Michael Sheen reacting to it do you know what I'm talking about yeah yeah and it's like the [ __ ] Happy Gilmore thing where it's just showing their name rising up you know all it's missing is someone just taking it off the hook and then moving it up more that's also in the Homer they fall episode of The Simpsons where Homer's Rising through the local boxing ranks and just like Box Car Joe is someone that he gets ranked over in this case though I I really don't like the [ __ ] with his iCal footage thing uh in my case it's one of those like damned if you do damned if you don't because I'll be honest with you uh if they had actually expanded those you know instead of historical footage they' given us 5 to 10 minutes of an actual match like a soccer match I would have been bored out of my mind but then they do this and I feel like it's cheating because even though I don't I wouldn't care for it I'm like people came to watch this movie because they're soccer fans and you're cheating them out of the soccer I don't care about the reaction shots of Michael Sheen I want to see this team play but of course in order for anyone to be invested on how that team plays you have to know the players and like we've already established we don't know the players because the movie doesn't care for the team they just care about Michael Sheen so yeah either way is a mess Tom Hooper I mean there's no surprise that this was I'm assuming the last sports movie he ever directed and then he just went on to do the artsy fartsy stuff I I don't feel like his heart is in it well yeah it's definitely phoned in at least through this he's just like all right I get 90 seconds off of making anything I can just get Michael sheener for some b-roll stick him in front of the green screen see what we can do here this is interwoven with his first day at work at Leeds United he comes in and he cuts a big promo about you know I'm here to make a difference and we're going to play clean football and you know talking about how they're not going to be what they were before he's there to he's got like a revisioning for him and they are just having absolutely none of it so this is uh okay A little bit of real talk but it's also I mean I guess relevant to cont corner I so in my mind my limited knowledge of sports in general around the world and all that stuff I always thought that uh like the violent sport was hockey you know I in like oh hockey is where you get [ __ ] up like on a regular basis and then well it is right and then like I thought soccer if you get injured in soccer it's like it's an accident you know like if get injured in basketball like whatever soccer is a brutal sport dude I I mean clearly the way they played in England but I thought because see I thought that that rugby was the violent sport in in England well rugby like just from a rules perspective and the way the game is played requires a certain bit of like I don't want to say grappling but like in soccer you can't just walk up to someone and like put their hand your hands on their shoulders and like push them around and [ __ ] like that well I mean according to this movie you can get pretty close oh well this is definitely one of those movies that like you know whether he wants or not Tom Hooper's instilling the ah these [ __ ] used to be actually tough now you know who's the Michael Beckham and all the types they're just the pretty boys they don't have the the grit the the plums to make it back in the old days uh but yeah so rugby has a different rule set and it's a lot more physical in the sense of like actually scram Ling and doing crazy tackles and [ __ ] like that whereas I think this is just the game hadn't quite evolved yet I mean as you can see the stadium like where Leeds plays is nice and I think they play at Wembley at the beginning of the the movie but um this was still the down and dirty days of the sport this is before Vince McMahon took the sport out of the Smoky bingo halls and into the bright lights okay I didn't realize that there was uh that there were different a of soccer because just I I was having a really hard time wrapping my head around the idea that uh that this team is famous for playing dirty and yet there's no repercussions and that then when a new manager comes on and says all right well enough with this we're going to play the way we're supposed to play uh the team is openly defiant about it and there's no consequences yeah and to be completely Fair like all sports are like that it's just a matter of them evolving and getting you know endorsements and sponsorship deals and TV time and [ __ ] like that that's not gentrified or cleaned up because there's still you know all kinds of dirty players in all sports um but it's not the game of you know grit so to speak as much as it used to be and that that's not just exclusive to soccer for Christ sakes in hockey and football they used to not wear helmets so it's um it's the natural progression of it all but yes you can find Julio if you cared enough you could find football teams basketball teams baseball teams that were notable for some more underhanded techniques I guess I guess that's the key like you said if you cared enough I don't yeah they're not having any of it he tries to you know scrimmage with them they check him [ __ ] hard and just he kind of like kitchen sinks him is what the wrestling term would be where he digs his knee into his abdomen and like kind of the inside of his thigh and just flips him over and I think at this point they don't Tom Hooper for all his lack of subtlety what this movie is trying to tell you on the first day is that he's in over the cloth is in over his head and but Hooper frames it as this kind of you know [ __ ] Stand and Deliver type thing of he'll win them over yet you know just wait for it the movie is going to end with them playing together and they're not going to tackle him they're not going to uh okay did I get this right is that the 50/50 what happens to him in on the cuz one of the players knocks him on his ass and then his uh his assistant goes up there was like he said no 50-50s I was like what the [ __ ] is going on I don't know what that means oh I didn't catch that um I mean to give a an example I could make though like the in sparring for boxing and like MMA and [ __ ] they'll tell you for sparring like go 30% like that's the type of [ __ ] they'll say there so I didn't catch the interaction here but I I could make an illusion to or deduce kind of what the the meaning is I mean I I I I from the context I understood that they were not supposed to knock their manager out and and then go to the locker room and just make fun of him maliciously yeah uh yeah is it dead it's dead po Society where all the students stand on the desk right yes yeah yeah yeah you were hoping that that's how this was going to end well I think that's like what Tom Hooper wanted you to think his movie was going to is you know cloth at the end you know I believe that I am who captain my captain that type of thing oh manager by manager yes exactly go back to 1969 they're now in the same league they get absolutely just trounced by leads I think it was 5 which is uh an Beyond a shutout in the world of football uh they end up playing again this I have in my notes here this is just Moneyball which of course Moneyball came out three years afterward four years afterwards so it'd be the other way around but it's literally the scene from Moneyball where Brad Pitt's like in the gym the only difference is here that Michael Sheen's in his office just listening to the crowd reaction that's you know does that make Timothy Spa the Jonah Hill character ye I guess yeah the brains behind the operation right cuz he's because there's guy there's even the scene where he like tries to talk sense into him of like I think you're making a really bad decision by doing this yeah um I think the difference is that this movie the one thing that this movie does that Moneyball didn't do when it came to that relationship is that there was never uh I never felt like there was a bromance between pit and Hill in that movie whether that's good or bad I mean we can just just listen to our M bow episode if you want know how I feel about that but in this movie there is they very much set up the the fact that there's this deep friendship between Timothy spa and Michael Sheen but they also set up that in the future you know because we keep going back and forth between the the well I guess the present and the past and in the present they're not friends anymore and so it has that question of like what happened right it's it's h it's the beginning of Caro's way we did on Pat it's like what happened to Pacino how do we get to this point and uh as the movie goes I mean I found that that was the one thing I latched on to was like I don't care about soccer I don't care about these players I don't really care about Sheen but I kind of feel bad for for Timothy Paul who's just you know trying really hard to be the voice of reason here and uh and seems to be the only one that has any sort of strategy when it comes to running this team and so I want to know what happened that made them just have a falling out you know why isn't he with him in the in in present day and uh I got to say that by the time that we get that answer it was kind of a it was underwhelming I think that the movie Let me build it up in my head for way too long and so it got to the point where the reveal was never going to be what I expected was was that your experience were you just running wild with theories of what might have happened between Timothy spa and uh Michael Sheen while you were watching this movie yeah it was obviously there was going to be like a fracture and there's even the part coming up where he calls him and he's just like don't don't call this number again I mean that is that's some hardcore stuff you're like what what happened and then when you find out it's just kind of like oh oh okay I mean I I've had those kind of arguments with my friends and then we had a couple of years and we got over it didn't have to gravel for it but this go around they actually beat them uh two to one which is obviously exciting for everyone involved uh Darby beating leads that is we get another Montage that shows them Rising through the ranks same thing interspersed with uh non-fictional and fictional footage alike get a clip of Muhammad Ali talking to Brian cloth at home talking about running his mouth we get Michael Sheen saying he's gonna fight Muhammad Ali which in another life probably would have been very entertaining in in some capacity first game in leads goes terribly and uh the star player the captain of the team uh Billy Bremner gets suspended for what is it six weeks or something um seven weeks six weeks 11 games yeah yeah and find you know 500 lb uh and this guy played Again by Stephen Graham Bremer just has no love at all for cloth and we find out a little bit more about their relationship here shortly um at what point did you lose faith in uh Michael Sheen's ability to run this team um because this was this was hit for me yeah I was trying to think about it and I think you're right because this is like he needs to win over brard or win over the rest of the crew and then he just can't do it like he tries to stay behind and like talk to him and like it just doesn't work he just like walks right out of the the meeting room and so it seems like a lost cause at this point yeah I I think that that his problem and this is where I don't understand I I guess I'm not sure if the movie is expecting me to be sympathetic toward him and go like oh this poor guy you know he's he's trying so hard and everybody's against him or or if I'm supposed to go like he's such an idiot he's doing everything wrong because he comes in really strong when he first takes over leads and he's talking [ __ ] on TV and you know he like you said he gives his players like an ultimatum he's like we're going to play clean and then they disobey him they disrespect him they don't care at all and he never enforces his rules like I was I kept waiting for him to just say all right well you're not gonna play by my rules then uh you're not gonna play at all and uh instead he just keeps engaging with these people that don't respect him and that don't follow his his lead and uh even when he brings new players I mean it's still not he's still catering to to you know the bad apples in the team so I I found that his he was old bark and no bite basically and that was extremely frustrating because I would have preferred a movie that was about this guy that was really trying and and still you know it was like a real competition between him trying to win the player the players being uh just resistant to it but here it was a guy that was just he was all talk never he never did anything to to win them over really so it it was just I don't know not as engaging not at all and he has no more friends because this is where he calls Timothy spa and Spa's just like [ __ ] off and he you know he does the lose this number thing and we go back just to to the previous year 1973 when they're matched up against Leeds once again and this this is kind of like the art how Billy Bean showdown in Moneyball where Sam longson chairman tells him hey we've got you know European Cup coming up and he tells him just put in like our second string against these guys and the obsession that cloth has to beat Leeds he's like no we're going to put in all our star players and then Leeds just comes in and beats the absolute [ __ ] out of him Brer specifically he even tells them good luck and uh Europe and Winks at him or some [ __ ] uh they suffered injuries just completely along the way and then they go and Italy beats them three to one and from there cloth blames everyone else but himself for not listening to reason in the previous game and this is so traumatic that Timothy Spa has a damn heart attack poor Timothy paaul he says that he's been having the heart attack the entire weekend yes did you think that this was it that was my thought I was like oh this this why they broke up well kind of because he's you know laying in bed recuperating and he's just wants to keep talking about [ __ ] the the team with him the club and he's just like please I almost died I'm dying and this is where he concocts the hairbrain scheme of uh we're going to Tender our resignations they won't go for it and then they'll kind of give us what we want and they'll move some parts around and will come out the other side of this you know for the better as he's explaining this plan you can see in the background Timothy Paul is having another heart attack yeah he's looking at him like no no you don't need to do this please God no and and so he does anyway and they just completely call his bluff and it costs them both their jobs and Timothy Spa's just you know recuperating from a heart attack he's probably on Med still and can't you know get too excited about anything he's lost his job The Passion of the spa that's that's what this movie is he uh he keeps he's a long suffering friend and yet this is not the breakup I think that if anything was going to be like the the the big breakup it would have been a lot more poignant I think if it happened here where he just goes listen Michael Sheen you're my buddy we've been through a lot but if I keep if I stay with you I'm going to die so no hard feelings because then it's not it's a surprise it's not what you expected right it wasn't a big blowout it was more like I'm still your friend but I my health is suffering my health won't allow me so and then it recontextualized you know when he tells him don't call this number again it's because don't call this number again because I can't handle the stress it's not that I'm mad at you it's just that if I want to survive if I want to live to see my grandchildren I need to I can't keep working with you uh but no that's not what happens he recovers so here to kind of consolidate it uh cloth is outrage when the directors accept their resignations and ban them from entering the baseball ground again although cloth later sneaks in as a supporter Darby fans's protests raise cloth's hopes of being reinstated and he is backed by the majority of his players as well but former player Dave maai is appointed manager instead Darby fans quickly lose interest and cloth loses all hope of getting his job back he and Taylor then offered jobs at Britain and HOV albian they agree to take the jobs after taking an all expenses paid holiday to ma majorka is that how you pronounce that uh Mala I don't know they went like South I think that's they went to the beach the movie stops so that we can we can see him take a vacation it stops like this is Tom Hooper getting revenge on where he came from because he's like see the sun comes out in other places of the world during that trip though someone from Leeds comes out to him and says hey how would you like to come work for us and then it leads to a huge blow up between him and Timothy fall this is what splits them apart as it turns into here as it worded a bitter horal before they go their two separate ways cuz to be fair at this point um I was completely behind Timothy Spa cuz he's a man of his word yep because with the other club they had just you know a handshake agreement they hadn't signed anything yet and now you know Brian's just obsessed with the idea of going there and taking them to Heights that were never seen uh with Revy just to you know stick in his crawl that type of thing and Timothy sp's just like no you can you can do that I'm not going to I one of my earlier notes notes Here said that this was like uh the boring British version of The Social Network and this would be the big blowout you know towards the end o good call like you better lawyer up [ __ ] like OS Paul is too classy to to get to go that far but they they say some pretty nasty things to each other and uh I'm like all right I mean I I buy it I don't think it's as as good as my idea of him just doing it for health reasons but uh all right whatever you know that that was a problem with building it up for so long you know that I like I said this was never going to live up to what I had thought of what their big fight was going to be about I thought that maybe um Michael Sheen was GNA like stab him in the back and I guess he kind of does in the sense that you know he backs out on a deal that they made together but it it's still not as dramatic as I thought Oscar Clips all around though I mean definitely they both they both go big on this one oh yes you're the shot window I'll grant you that the Rattle and the Bloody Dazzle but I'm the goods in the back and without me without somebody a Savor from yourself Bri [ __ ] clo you're not just half you're nothing I'm not I'm nothing don't make me laugh what did I make you then Taylor something you're half of nothing nothing's parasite a big fat pilot fish that feeds on nothing a bloody nobody the Forgotten man he history's [ __ ] afterthought yeah they definitely go for it and then you know Hooper behind the camera with a single tier of that wide shot you know of the water in the background and Timothy um and Michael Sheen acts like he's going to run after Timothy's fall but then thinks better of it it's classic back in real time Leeds goes 0 and2 and then 0 and three and cloth is hitting absolute rock bottom and he in another scene from Money Ball he drunkenly calls uh Revy in the middle of the night and he's just like you must be so happy and uh [ __ ] call meie has like my favorite line of the movie here he's just like where's your dignity like pull yourself together man and that's from the viewer at home like we want to like this Brian character but he's just coming across as an absolute loser Yeah by now though I mean I maybe halfway through the movie and maybe maybe this is something that you figured out and I didn't because I'm not into sports what what is what is his value is it just that he's a frontman is is it just like how he behaves in front of the camera because you know they talk about his managerial style and I just don't see it or is it's just a failing of the movie that it doesn't let me see it like I don't know what he brings to the table I I I can see that uh leads obviously the leads players reject anything that he even tries to do right but uh but even when he was a Darby like I couldn't tell you what he did like all he did was tell uh uh Timothy SPO hey give me new players and and you know basically just throw money at whatever problem he had and say yeah don't worry I'm going to talk the chairman into it and but that was it but as far as like strategy or uh any sort of uh planning or or you know Insight that he brought into the team like I don't I don't get it and I thought that maybe the movie was going to end with everybody acknowledging that that it was like oh yeah you know he's he's nothing without Timothy Paul and on he's really he's not a good manager he's just a guy that's really good in front of the cameras and that he's really good at kind of like seizing opportunities but by the time we get to the end of the movie and we'll get there I mean it's not the movie kind of seems to agree that to the movie kind of seems to argue that he is the greatest thing in British history since I don't know tea and biscuits do do you agree I mean do you am I wrong what if you had to describe his his style his managerial style what is it yeah the movie definitely does um the movie doesn't lead you to water in that realm it basically says you just need to believe me Tom Hooper says just believe me this guy did a good job I mean it shows that he knew what he was doing in some aspects but it also shows that a lot of his success came with Timothy Spa with um Pete Taylor so I think that is what is highlighted much more than what his successes as a coach are cuz he's [ __ ] done here now at this point it's been six weeks with Leeds and they call him in and they're starting at the bottom of the barrel the dead last for the season they're in and then one last time Bremner just [ __ ] him he's like well if Brian could leave the room maybe we'd feel more comfortable saying things about and then of course they just bury him and uh you know one of the guys that's been with Brian forever ask you know what's going on boss and he's like same two words that every that end every story the [ __ ] in it's like that's three words you dumb [ __ ] this is why you're losing your job that's one of the easiest jokes to make and I always take it is when someone says I got two words for you and then puts [ __ ] or something in the middle of it get three words you idiot such low hanging fruit but it's all over Brian's done uh he does get his money on the way out he gets paid tells them okay it's just going to cost you so you get to do that like I didn't know I thought that he was kidding like when you get fired you don't get to make demands right or is it because they're buying him out of his contract I think it would be that that they're buying him out of his contract it depends on how you're doing it because they don't tell him straight up your fire they're just like this isn't working and it's not you it's us just kidding it's you it's like that Seinfeld where they asked George to leave the company and he won't but they can't fire him so he just like they keep trying to like Bully him out of leaving that's kind of like what this is I just imagine if Brian cloth had stayed you know they just put sugar in his gas tank cut holes in his clothes you know put nir in his shampoo that type of thing but he's like all right well I'll leave it's just going to cost you so good for him on that and before they leave town him and his sons that he brought with them they're going to go where's his wife and his other kid he had three kids I honestly in the back of my head I'm thinking his wife just left him I mean it makes sense but on the way out he's going to do um [ __ ] what was the TV show they did well I don't know what he thought he was going to do but he ends up in Mory he ends up doing uh one last interview with Yorkshire television and Julio as you joked ends up like a scene on myy as he's absolutely blindsided by the presence of Don Revy U they just kind of get into uh you know back and forth a verbal joust so to speak about their coaching Styles them as human beings uh eventually cloth just tells them you know this is why I don't like you you didn't shake my hand and there's this part where like the cameraman looks at the interviewer and then like the guy holding the boom mic and they're all they have this look of like God children can we wrap this up this is where the movie lets the audience know that this was all over a handshake just listen we just wasted your time for an hour and 45 minutes an hour and 37 minutes to be fair Wars have been started over less men are very fragile characters yeah but they were they were wors they were interesting this was just we just saw this dude parade himself uh with absolutely no talent in front of a camera and in front of like these teams and it was just because his ego got bruised and I don't know like on one hand I like I give the British props for being classy because uh it's not like they set uh Michael Sheen up in a way where you know they got him to start talking [ __ ] about col mini and then they brought colini out was like well let's see who we have here no they they start with the two of them there uh which was which was good but then it kind of feels like they like what was the the point of this interview like what was the what was the end goal what were they expecting was going to happen yeah everyone just feels kind of dirty about themselves when it's over it's just like the ratings were good but we've lost a little of our soul like when you your your selection of porn is a bit too questionable and it's over and you're like well I it's done but I don't know at what cost it did the job but I'm not going to tell anyone about this uh I do like that they all leave afterwards and we just see Michael Shen clot there just completely alone and I think that again subtlety is is not the key uh to Tom Hooper's filmmaking but I think in that situation it works for him after the interview he decides they're going to go pay Uncle Pete a visit not his wife as she probably doesn't exist so they go to Brighton to patch things up with uh Pete Taylor and this is where I think it's somewhat of a Vindication for Timothy Spa being the guy we're cheering for the whole time he basically gets to call the shots and he tells Michael Sheen to get down on his knees and gravel and says he feeds in the line I apologize unreservedly for being a [ __ ] and Michael Sheen says I apologize for being a [ __ ] H interjects unreservedly and they I think Timothy Spa forgives him a little too easily though oh yeah yeah especially because as they are embracing SPO acknowledges that this is probably going to happen again you know what I mean it's not like this this this apology this interaction ends with SPO finally on top where he righteously belongs and now he's be the alpha in this relationship no it ends with him saying like I know you're going to [ __ ] me over and I know that you don't mean to but it's going to happen anyway but what the hell I love you and then someday B Sugar Ray starts playing and we go into uh the fun credits where we get to compare what the what the real people look like versus the the actors that portray them and uh what do you know uh Pete what's his name looks nothing like the Paul that and also we get to see just how throbbing Tom Hooper's erection was for Brian cloth because he the closing title card is Brian cloth Remains the greatest manager the England team had never had it's like all right it's a bit subjective since there's no actual evidence to back that up that's just kind of because he never was he never coached England also the entire movie was about how terrible he was as a manager uh Tom Hooper I think this is a classic case of you almost got got it but not quite and that you know the de evolution of his film career has been that it's like oh you almost had it but not and then now we're at a point of just like dude you don't even know what the point is anymore and he just like Tom Hooper finished this and he's like guys sports are hard let's just do something else you guys ever heard of that King that had a stutter I'm taking Colin fth and we can drag it out in extra 40 minutes or so uh hey Timothy you want to play Churchill I'll ride you in at the end oh man so that was uh the Damned United did you learn anything Julio did you feel like you learned anything no no that's not true I I feel like I I here's my big takeaway rugby is not the only violent sport in England and this is relevant to the friend okay real talk did you not know that soccer is like a brutal sport no oh wow like I know it can be brutal accidentally I didn't realize that soccer was the one where like you get to punch people and you know people celebrate you for it and and then things keep going yeah I mean that doesn't happen too often but it's definitely a very tension filled and at times volatile sports that that's just kind of surprising to me no like I you know I knew about the like the holigans and I know that that you know I I know from movies The Stereotype of the really violent angry British sports fan but I didn't realize that it was like that it was also on the field I thought it was a gentleman Sports and on that note I feel it's uh time that we move along to Real Talk Julio let's do that love and Mar love and marriage is an Institute you can't will ele try try try and separate try try try and you will onlyus