Ep 11 (Aired 8/30/18) Special Edition: Inside the Apollo 13 Studio - The Agile Roundtable Part 2

[Music] all right so in this episode of agile after dark we get to part two of inside Apollo 13 Studio the agile Round Table where we get to ask our esteemed guests some very specific questions and we also let them hear from our studio audience and see where that takes us hope you enjoy it and take a listen welcome back everyone to Agile after dark the podcast that addresses agile topics not talked about in the light of day I'm your host Brandon gartley sitting here and still sitting on a plane trying to get to the Heartland is my co-host Greg Adams Woodford we are going to continue with part two of our agile round table inside the Apollo 13 Studio we're going to transition into the pivot questionnaire made Famous by the dean Meritus James Lipton on inside the actor Studio who's born in Detroit by the way so good guy Steve um a Michigan person yeah he has a Michigan person um but uh it was actually originally a uh it's used on air by Bernard poo on the French show Buon de Kure po poo poo poo yes don't even try Steve very very French all right so what I'm going to do is I have a list of 10 questions all right and for each question I'm going to pose it and then we'll start with SH and then Steve goes and then the next one you'll go first Steve and then and then shot all right you guys are ready it's exciting stuff is there a time limit to the answers not at all I cuz I can edit okay all right you talk too much Steve we'll edit it out kind of along those lines first question is start with you Charlotte what is your favorite word pick one yeah patience I love it as a mother of two and also having a spouse that travels for work I'm sure patients up there but also professionally as well right professionally as well everybody is on their own Journey you need patience yeah excellent how about you Steve what what is your favorite word favorite word teaming I'm gonna say tonight teaming teaming yes you have to explain that a little further for us uh just the notion of collaborating uh working together with other people to achieve a common goal uh the common goal back to the vision right we need to have the vision for the common goal which you know I feel like I'm I'm providing the vision here pretty well without cause so we need to kind of keep that in mind you think so Greg fun Greg what do you think you know yeah Greg we're Greg yeah go what do you think EDI in hey you just show up you don't ask any questions you just perform we're not going to pay attention to that all right well that's normal we normally ignore so then we go to the antithesis of the first question of the first question so po it do you see first this time what is your least favorite word me me me me me me it's all about me me me right yeah it's okay as a coach I can understand that being a tough one to get around but as a coach we also have to be self-aware of that correct right we do we do and I still need to grow and learn in that area but yes it is something as coaches we need to be aware of how much are we inserting ourselves into the situation and how much are we really being servants to the system that we're trying to coach and to uh help right turn the me into we yes we we we we from pivo what about you shot what is your least favorite word least favorite word so many um so many yeah Steve so that's right so charotte has a list of people that she doesn't want to work with she probably has a long list of words that she doesn't want to deal with either um nothing is offputting to me more than when I see a situation where people don't treat each other with respect um so to me that that really um is off putting yeah nonr yeah no respect no respect for the other human right because we're all on a journey right we all have our different ways of getting to where we are and knowledge levels experiences what that have shaped us to you know who we are we bring different perspectives we may disagree but disagree is not equal to disrespect mhm mhm absolutely all right so think we have to be careful with this one I wish Greg was here for this because I know he' react what turns you on creatively spiritually or emotionally me yes to shla you first creatively spiritually and or emotionally or emot emotionally I think when when I see that people are really doing their best and putting their best foot forward it's not about them doing the right thing or the wrong thing right but just trying makes me a very happy person it it it definitely brings the best in me they're trying to learn right they they want to learn learn they have the right attitude that's it attitude the right attitude matters right yeah you you're going to get out of it what you put into it the whole theory of experimentation with an agile and I can stay with it and I can bring the best out in me just being in that atmosphere what about you Steve what turns you on creatively spiritually or emotionally all right um besides Terrell prior not so much Terell but um it would be it would be Jesus you know he is the ultimate in the uh the person who was a servant leader someone who served uh came to sacrifice um so that is you know the Touchstone for me and the ultimate you know in you know uh the true north of what being a servant is and what uh sacrificing uh for the greater good is and that as we've talked about earlier in this podcast that self-reflection MH being less about the me more about the wi yeah well that was a lot more serious than I thought it was going to be so uh but I appreciate that I really do because you know I think having models of right people and an understanding of spiritually what really can I connect to and understand uh is important to to kind of have that as both coaches but also as participants of the the things that the teams that we're coaching right exactly exactly having having a framework outside of a technology space understanding what does being a servant really mean what does being uh what do sacrificial love really mean what is caring about someone else really mean with a context outside of you know the the office space that we frequently work in and saying this is the the ultimate this is the Touchstone that we need to be looking to right so to build on that what turns you off Steve turns me off uh yes but um uh turns me off it would be it would be still that that selfishness that you know that me Focus what can promote me um a close second is uh those who are judgmental yeah you know the judgmentalism of that you know hey you're not doing it right you're doing that wrong whatever it is hey let me criticize critique both of those so the me Focus the selfish focus and that judgmental Focus which I view as an outworking of that me Focus right you know both of those are huge turn offs for me yeah the channel Greg a Crump ISM you know better to be consistent then right right y you know and and I think you know I think we have to have further conversation with him about that because it's so ingrained in us as coaches of that's what's expected of us is to come to whatever team program leadership whatever and like what's right what's right well you know right well it's it's not about because that's what feeds into that sort of the me it's about me right versus no it's about the vision and the understanding and the compassion right right for other individuals their cultural background their you know other various backgrounds and how do they all work together right to to you shalow what turns you off what turns me off as a professional yeah yeah start with that um it's a difficult question uh I think the trade that we're in um I have had the joy of working with many mentors through my professional career I still work with a mentor and um you know he's an actual coach as well well practiced well traveled and so on and so forth and when we have some conversations uh I remember distinctly one of the conversations was about hey we rarely coach all we do is Mentor MH yeah and when we got a little deeper into okay what we putting him on the couch and we're like you know sitting down there what does mentorship look like so we went deeper in that conversation and it turned into a very quick synopsis of yes we're expected to judge right and it's a big part of the expectation it's why we get you know paid what we get paid mhm and to me that was personally offputting and it set me off on a journey that I'm very happy to be on right um it set me off on and really um deepening my understanding on what motivates people MH we talk so much about positivity we talk so much about creativity at the end of the day why do people do the things they do right why do they do awesome right and what is their Journey to get to the place that they're at we talked about leadership you know before which is I've you know in the previous way of doing things I've been promoted because I do this am I then looking at everyone else like well I did that right right so I need to expect that's that's the expectation for me because I had to go through it and there's a reason there's absolutely a reason right um and what I've come to discover through you know the training and the coaching program that I'm in is there is a 2% truth there is a 2% business Sy mhm right in everything that has happened there's there's a little bit more growth that we've had whether it's a positive aspect or a negative aspect through the years right so I don't you know view the job that I do as purely mentorship and I'm very cognizant of being judgmental yes there are days when I'm absolutely frustrated I want to hit my wall you know head on the wall you have your thing ready to strike if it's great I I've had great Partners as you know I have proceeded to do my day job right any assignment I've been in uh there's very few that have been solo I've always had the joy of pairing with people and saying did you read this that the same way practice what we preach right in terms of being part of a team exactly and as coaches sometimes that can be hard and and actually practicing the humility that goes with a failure right and that's not easy after this many spending this many years having the careers we've had it's really difficult for me to stand up and say yes that was a horrible conversation and I do that more today than I used to be able to do that a few years right so I think that comes with for me it was a growth yeah right it was definitely a growth area right and for me part of your own agile Journey exactly leadership Journey right and for me what that mentorship discussion it touched me in ways where you know it it really made me question yeah y yeah yep all right so next question and I'll go to Shila to build off that what is your favorite curse word too many too many I got two teenagers and I don't want them to hear this well keep them away if we really need to bleep it out we can but we're we're in a safe space there's only 10 people that listen to this thing anyway favorite curse word wow effing just do it effing effing effing all day y yeah even if it's not coming out of our mouth it's sitting in the back of our head it's a word bubble it's a word bubble eping epic epic what about you Steve the guy just talked about Jesus yeah the word bubble that's coming out of my head is the F you yeah yes y so so I try to restrain and try to present you know professional you know but it's useful and your back of your head you're just like that yeah yeah but you know what it's been a joy partnering with Steve um we have had our moments of frustration but I think the partnership is when when I'm on that edge of frustration he's able to just calm the situation down and take it a different direction give me a you know space if you will we've never really landed on we've had the conversation we get out of the room and say horrible when you deal with when you're deal with the EVPs of being a dick like uh Greg you know you know that's the stuff that you kind of have to like let some steam out through the bubble right right exactly all right uh so Steve to you what sound or noise do you love sound or noise yeah oh my gosh I should I sh that first is it is it the sound of grass under your bare feet is that is is that a fair guess that's the feel of it yeah it's not a feel not the sound it's not a real sound that's that's a feel and almost wow that almost get that's that's a whole different sens it's like you know just getting rid of the one ring in the in the you know in the the as a hobit the sound that's what what's the question sound the question is what what sound or noise do you love do I love um a sigh of contentment so just a peaceful yes mhm good good I like that maybe building on that a um the aha moment of ah I see you're literally like we're talking about bubbles when you see like the light bulb be like exactly when you see the light bulb go yeah what about you sh flowing water flowing water let it go yeah just let it go yeah Let It Go most people most peaceful sleep I've ever had was on a sailboat when you're in like the little part like where the water can like small enough sailboat where you can hear the water going inste yeah for me it's the whole um what was the martial artist um Bruce Lee let the water go it'll take its shape right it'll it'll Bend it'll go around and you just need to let it go all right so back to you shla what sound or noise do you hate uh I hate loud blaring noises and the one particular one that has stuck with me in this place of work is the train horn yeah loud abrupt F horn especially when I'm trying to have a useful conversation not useful so don't go to Purdue football games is what I'm telling you right now exactly yeah do not go to I have never been to a go to disclosure if I just don't like oh so don't go to the edum concerts that I go to okay fair enough what about you Steve I'm GNA go with the same you know loud uh blaring noises although the train what what I can't hear what Steve oh let if you around loud noise enough you can't hear very right the train well it's CU you go to these blaring Ro the train actually never bothered me I mean I sleep through the train every night that I was up in the Heartland you know when I was near the it's like no it's it's just I grew up by a train station by the way and so you didn't learn to sleep through I sleep so when people are like we're putting together a trend you're like I do not want to hear about another train TR you can't escape charlot so this is ironic from our conversation last week when I was sharing that okay I grew up or no I didn't grow up in the land my V my grandparents lived in the Heartland and so I traveled for vacation up into the middle of flat cornfield so I actually find them attractive and Shila and Nan are looking at me like you know are you are you out of your freaking mind you know all right you know you know train noises doesn't that give bring some Nostalgia and apparently not at all no no it doesn't so here's one of my favorite questions out of out of this list um is what profession other than your own would you like to attempt I'm a first right yeah you are a first what profession other than my own would I like to attempt y wow um I'm really enjoying what I'm doing right now so this is what mhm um yeah although I have you contemplated like when I retire would I want to would I want to learn can I go into a naked and a freid quilting no you know it's like no I don't think I Quil Quil quilting yes yeah there's there's a peaceful like a weird old soul like Hobbit I don't know you don't I really like I actually would to BR Studio loves this idea C audience is like like giving like thumbs up here right now I actually would have thought it been like some survivalist sort of no that was my older brother he was a wacko for that um no cool thing the peacefulness of it or it's the peacefulness of it but also that you're creating something um we were my wife and I were flipping houses for a while there's some peacefulness to that when you with your hands when you don't have a project manager breathing down your bra you know when you do it's a pain in the ass but you know when when you don't and just working something with your hands uh so that's the word the quilt so working something allow so the craftsmanship so I I hadn't but it's the craftsmanship of that which I enjoyed about being a developer as well and I enjoyed as a coach bringing out allowing people to uh experience their best that craftsmanship you so I would enjoy doing that myself yeah okay what about you Shila what profession other than your own would you like to attempt so like Steve I love the job I do uh I have a great passion for working with people MH and you know even after I retire I I don't think I could live in solitude right I I get my energy from being around people that I am a mad scientist in the kitchen um so yeah maybe maybe I'll go into in or cooking and you know donating the food at a temple or whatever so different type of craftsmanship yeah just you know service in the temple maybe there's interesting tie there because I think other answers I've seen to this which is you know I would like to go off and be kind of like on my own Island and doing my own thing and not being around people right sh I've talked about this I could do that and do the I could build and quilt my own you know that's right and that's fair I could because I don't need to be around other people I say as a profession we're we're dealing with people every day and you know shout that we're near a wall and she kind of earlier was like I feel like I'm doing this hitting my head against the wall based on the conversations and stuff but I think you know there is something to this profession that we're in which is when we see the slight even it's just like the slight like chipping away the slightest thing and we see the next step and when someone's like as you said Steve like the the light bulb goes off on someone's head whether it's quilting for ourselves to you know be like you know this is the mechanical piece of it the engineering side of it or it's the cooking thing and I'm doing it but then everyone was like wow I really I get that it's it's fascinating to me all right only two more questions left and they're good ones so here we go so I think I'm on Chila what professional would you not like to do there's a lot of Yin and Yang yes not so we just went through Chef coaching you love what you do what would you you know it's an introverted thing that you wouldn't like to do uh having lived around them my entire life professionally and personally that doesn't bother me as much um there was a time in in my past life where um I spent six months uh not being able to sleep very well and I hated my job every single day I had to tear down what I built you know with a lot of love and pain if you will um and that company was going through a um you know spin-off it was just how it was right um so yeah there is an aspect of that uh destroying right the word destroying comes to mind that I just don't enjoy so I don't think when I look back uh at that aspect of the career the word director really has a bad taste in my mouth for those reasons M right I wish it was not called director I wish it was called something else you know um vision leader I don't care but the whole word the notion of you're a director hence you must direct yeah just bothers me to no end to this day um when people call me and say hey can you come help and can this that the other like no I am not no didn't no no that's not what I want you get the late thing you're like yeah don't talk to me about that no yeah so not that not that okay what about you Steve well the first job well tearing down I mean I was thought that's that's actually a creative part of doing house renovations you know but that's a different type of tearing down right when you asked the question the first thing that jumped in my mind was garbage collector I certainly don't want to be a garbage collector you know that's funny though because I told one of my first podcasts I did the whole thing about janitors remember this that whole study about the janitors that power in the hospital like I would never want to do that job but they said we're going to do it our way CU we're part of a larger so yeah they're you know the garbage collectors you know maybe they're feeling like you know you've seen the videos where the kids like come out on the side of the street like okay we have our garbage right and they come out and they're like yeah my son for the longest time wanted to be a garbage collector that's all he wanted to do yeah I'm not trying to negate what you're saying now I'm thinking about the guys who come and pick up the garbage cans in our street like but you're right about like the in elementary school some of the people that the kids have the best bonding with in a good school system are the janitors right you know they have the time to interact with the kids and life but um my next thought went to um one something that unfortunately I have the skills for as I have a master certification in project management another thing to shatter shila's uh you view of me um is I would hate to be a classic project manager it would kill my soul yes it killed my soul it absolutely killed my soul and I was ready to completely do not to steal what you were saying but I was ready to change my entire profession right right you you'd prefer to do garbage collection I would absolutely I was like hey little kid on the corner you got garbage I will take that versus going to a developer every other day and saying hey on my Gant chart it says you're supposed to have this done tomorrow are you done yet you done are you done yet are you done yet it sucks a life out of you and your whole it's not just you but it sucks the life out of everyone that you're interacting with and that's it's you can't do it destruction it's it's all the stuff that you know and that's where it's kind of interesting when we're talking about doing agile versus being agile right which is what's the replacement for project management of hey have you gotten this thing done on a Gant chart that's due tomorrow versus oh we're walking the board you said this is going to get done in the Sprint is it done versus hey I'm seeing a pattern and let's like you're you're kind of it's we haven't seen much moving you in the standups or whatever you kind of said that you're struggling with stuff let's figure it out together versus well my gchart says this oh Fred over here says I'm not done with it well you know you and Fred need to figure that out said you said for four months ago that you'd be done by now what's the problem but that's you know you have an accountability issue yeah well I think need to predict you yeah well I think that you know Christie and others that have been on the show we kind of talked about what we naturally just kind of like honestly stumbled into agile right which was we hate being that person so let's get you and these three dep people you're dependent on in a room every day and talk about what's going on right right and that was before agel was ago and like Greg with his you know note cards and no stickies because he's that old all right all right so last last question uh I'm on you I think Steve first for this which you know I giving you one of your answers is somewhat fitting fitting excuse me uh If Heaven exists what would you like to hear God say when you arrive at the Pearly Gates uh well done well done well my God it's like we're twins she literally was like saying well done I'm like job well done yeah it was in my brain you basically all of the people honestly we deal with people right right we're not dealing with the systems we're not dealing with the technology we are kind of in a third right person it's not really third it's like third something right but we're literally dealing with people every day right right and so and and if there's a heaven you know and and God exists then when he says well done it's going to be around people not about organizations because they all have all expired it's not going to be about structures or systems or the work itself because it doesn't matter it's going to be around people did you help people were you constructive did you build up people in U in your time here and so that would be that would be the best yeah anything out of that sh so it's an interesting conversation I had with my dad my dad is a professor genetics right and I will say an atheist right yeah my scientist he's a scientist does not believe in in God and he believes in science and that's okay and my mom on the other side is is a very Orthodox same here Hindu woman we have this conversation it's interesting how I grew up in that household and I was talking to my dad about this profession of coaching and what he does and how it's different from you know therapy how is therapy different from coaching one is talking about you know taking that client and getting them into the future where one is focused on the past and the history and why it is the way it is and trying to heal from there but both of them the thing that is common in both of them is the healing power right and the ability to to have that person actually achieve their own agenda yeah right unlocking that potential that the actual human being has for them to go achieve their goal it's not about them achieving your goal as a coach it's about them achieving their goal for them to be able to see it and actually grow to that right I think that is the ultimate reward uh when you take the equation of money off the table for a coach that is the ultimate reward and that's really what drives me on a day-to-day basis and I like the the the phrase of unlocking yeah right because it's there I think as us as generally human beings right that sort of we all have blind spots I mean no shame right there's always blind spots and for somebody else I mean you're sitting on an Ohio State like pad on your chair and that's a blind spot for me but you know hey but it's helpful right you're you're more comfortable and that's what matters to me sh there you go that's all that matters it's gracious of you all right we're going to take one more quick break and then uh we're actually G to take some questions from our agile after dark studio audience so very excited about that and uh we will be right back so send your questions or feedback to feedback at agile after dark.com and check out our previous podcasts at agile after dark.com [Music] so Brandon's going to edit this out but when he said water flowing it's like all right she's not talking about the bathroom no and everyone in the C I am not talking about in the bathroom everyone Studio there everyone in the studio is like I got to pee after this 2014 Mero which is not a melb back by the way so I failed miserably compared to gray cuz I didn't realize his melb back that child Lo and I got a Mero so different [Music] M all right so we are back and no sign of G coming in from his flight from God knows where to the Heartland uh but uh you know I think we've we've done pretty well without him did you text the slacker I you know I did I did and heed as as you know as one to dolot it's not I'm not the only one I'm saying feel good as he says it's more it's good to be more consistent than Ray so the consistent nine response someday he and I are going to have a debate because one of the mottos that I Leverage is consistency is overrated because I run into a lot of organizations that do things for the sake of consistency now I get Greg's point and it's a valid point well it's a Crump ISM so he's a little you know it's like Al Steve why that D look I know yeah and I do have down look I do I specialize in that but I will still say that consistency is overrated all right all right all right though this is going to be great not wait for him to show up I specialize amazing so as part of this format we're kind of changing it up a little bit so I'd love to open it up to our studio audience to to ask questions all I ask is you say your name your rule and what your question is hey Steve my name is Danny and I'm coming all the way from Denver Colorado just wanted to know what were you like in high school and also who like what is your favorite company and why two-part question so you're like the classic journalist you're you know putting multiple Parts into your question you know all right what was I like in high school how are these two related even to one another this just a cheat way to get two questions in all right how was I how was I in high school I was the poor Danny is sitting in the audience with the mic still in his hand he's just like uhhuh yeah take it yeah you're going to take this question so how was I like I was the classic nerd you know um gosh you know I I was not a sports dude I knew nothing about it uh my only interaction with our high school football was that I played band in the high school for the high school and I only played the one year because after that you know the the band instructor made it clear that music is not your talent Steve you should go somewhere else I snuck into our computer room and there was no computer classes at that time there wasn't computer classes in high school for a long time after that you were punching the cards to you we fortunately did not have a punch card system so but it's like gregy didn't have stickies so you know you're you're not as old we did not have I'm older than the sticky so anyway so that's what I was like in high school second part question what's the what's my favorite company um my favorite company is actually Google alphabet you know it's their ability to uh celebrate failure I mean so many things are fantastic about them as a company as far as um a agile company that doesn't even really have to espouse agile or lean beliefs because it's built into their DNA you know that we will relentlessly relentlessly improve we will relentlessly experiment we will celebrate failure um so for me that's my favorite all right so we have another question from the audience hi my name is Ruth aan from Chicago and I am an agile coach and my question is to both Shila and Steve um talk about a time when you were forced to become a leader and how has that contributed to you being able to teach and coach effectively today become a leader so it's it's interesting the notion of becoming a leader I think you are every person is a leader within right um You are born with those traits and you develop them as you grow older so my first memory of being a leader is of me being a class monitor if you will right I don't know what you call it here in school but it's you know um it's class monitor here MH yeah it is it is yeah okay um so at a very young age even in kindergarten I used to lead people to the playground I used to lead people to the cafeteria command and control thing no it's about you know helping people see and helping people find their way and you know keeping the line moving if you will so it's no surprise that I got to spend 10 years of my life um in the defense space and I got to see what leadership truly is from Close Quarters right it is not about command and control it is about dealing with humans and building that capability in another human that is what leadership is all about um so those are some of my earliest memories so Ruth what was the second half of your question um how has that contributed to you being effective as a coach today oh okay it's a good question the see I never unlike sh I never envisioned myself as a leader um in the band nerd world of the actually I'm not going to ban world right right yeah but third third drum bonus too in a uh like no not a leader uh the first for me it was in totally unwork related I was in a month-long uh workshop on site you and a bunch of my colleagues said you know we had to do a presentation and they said okay you're the leader and I'm like what you know and they saw something in me that I didn't see um a an ability to lead and to um motivate people from a from a position of humility and that envisioned it for me um how did that enable me as an agile coach um I think I think still to um approach situations from a perspective of humility and I don't always do that and and I know that g in particular you know called me out on it once where where I had approached a situation with uh what at least the customer perceived is a lack of humility and when he called me out on that really tou to all I have to eat and I'm coaching from my perspective being constantly uh Curious and listening and humble to say you know what while I may know a lot of things I I haven't lived in your skin and I need to live in your skin and and understand that before I can really coach you perspective taking so to answer that question you know second part of that question Ruth what it has built in me the perspective taking ability right the ability to like Steve says you know live in walk a mile in somebody else's shoes to really understand what are the obstacles you know um where is leadership really required uh and I think being able to display a sense of vulnerability as opposed to humility right um to show that vulnerability as a leader also I think is a huge positive trade and that has helped me in my coaching um you know journey to say I don't know it all so let's figure it out together let's co-create and it it's it's taught me a lot it's helped me grow hey Azel after dark this is Danny coming from Denver I'm an Azo coach um this question goes out to Shila um this is more of a two-part question for you Shila so uh first part is okay so you hear a lot of coaches they'll talk about in order to make a successful agile transformation you got to start from the team up you have to like build a team and then from there they organically kind of spread throughout the organization and their value will start to show just over time right do you see that as the more optimal solution or do you kind of take the stance that you have to start with the leadership and kind of go top down second part of this question oh God we have one of these what is the craziest thing that happened to you in New York City wow okay I'll start with the second question cuz it's fresh on mine uh the craziest thing that happened to me in New York there's a bunch of crazy things but there was one time I was working and it was Halloween Halloween is not a national holiday by the way kids um and it was a late nighter we were pulling a late nighter it was close to midnight catching the last train out of New York City I got hit with a beer bottle oh yeah and I kept walking I was Brave I kept walking I did not stop did not cry did not get shaken up I did go to my house and then cried but that was the craziest thing and I went back to work the next day now that's crazy note to self don't mess with SH did you stay late the next day till midnight um matter of fact I stayed over and went the next morning after that we were going through a deployment yeah it didn't stop me um so let's go to the first part of the question um what is the successful pattern of an agile transformation if I had to bottom line that question did I get that right Danny um and you're going to hate this answer it's going to feel like the typical consultant answer which is to say it depends and I say that with all the grace and humility possible because it really depends on the context of the situation um there are some organizations within which you know a Grassroots can take you know a great form a form of its own and can succeed uh and I am eviden to that right um there's also um organizations wherein it can get stifling if it doesn't have executive support and we talked about that at the beginning of the show um so what is the one recipe to success I don't believe there's one that exists and for that reason I really don't like playbooks in this area uh I despise playbooks actually um it's it's the work we do with humans and humans by Nature are unpredictable so there's no one way to solve the problem can I ask a follow question to that then you might be cut off but okay you can hold on the mic one more time okay so let's just say you're going into a fresh organization you know brand new client where would you prefer to start uh prefer to start where as in like would you want to start with the leadership and kind of go top down or would you want to start with the teams and kind of go bottom up you know it's an interesting question I don't think I've ever been presented a choice as to where do you want to start but the very first thing I do when I get into an organization and I'm faced with this is I shut up and observe I ask asked plenty of questions um and we talked about being non-judgmental don't try to bring in your bias as a coach just observe observe where the action is observe where the change is wanting to happen because that's really where they're most open to coaching coaching is a pull activity it is not a push activity right so wherever the demand goes when the student is ready the teacher will show as my mentor keeps reminding me so and I'm going to build on that a little bit because I have also never been given that opportunity but I did early on in my career got uh you know some I got to observe someone who's well known in the industry and he's was of the Viewpoint or he was set the stage with our company that hey the entrance criteria is I want to spend a week with your executive and if I could spend a week with an executive both shadowing them observing them and being a geminy cricket in essence instilling in them lean agile thinking that's where I would definitely by far uh choose to start giv a choice yay brother let's do it yeah I've never had that choice but in my dream world yeah that would be my choice okay so I have a second question um so both sh and Steve once again and my question would be um in analyzing or looking at nor organization from both Team level and the leadership level what is something or what's a trait a concept a practice a learned behavior that you would say um a team or leadership must disengage from in order to be successful okay so this goes back to the what puts you off Shila category right um and when I go what are the bad words well no she got a list I've got a list yeah um but but when I see an organization that is in the I know it all category and is demonstrating a repeated pattern of that I've Seen It All I Know It All there's no more room for growth then that's the organization I want to run away from because there is no potential for growth and true change requires growth yeah and so there that part of that whole concept of the agile Industrial complex where I'm saying as a company we're doing a we're good and so I just need a little tweaks here and there or I'm not good for your job yeah I'm sorry I just can't do that job I'm actually GNA fully agree with Shila you on that one you know that uh an organization that is demonstrating an unwillingness to learn um you know and that's where in the Brandon what you mentioned and what Martin mentioned about the agile industrial complex you know we feed we build on those we just take their money rather than saying you know we're not interested we're going to fire you as a as a client the and the sad thing is no matter those companies they will find three or four companies that will three or four consultings or that will fire them but they'll find someone who will still feel fill that Gap yeah and that's the sad thing is that as a IND industry um and we have become an industry um that there will be someone who will step in and say sure I'll do that for you when it's just you know propagating bad behavior yeah as a lip service and I and I agree that kind of you know I don't want to end on a sad note so I'll talk about you know kind of what we've been talking about as a summary today but I do think in terms of that concept of the industrial complex the good side of it is we're not really having to do that high jump anymore to get into here is the agile stuff we're doing the hurdle it's not it's not as much of a a gap that we have to to get past but now it's oh it's a hurdle a hurdle is a hurdle a hurdle hurdle like I'm able to like get over these things and the clients and the companies are saying okay we've gotten past the high jump now I don't have any hurdles left I'm sprinting yeah no pun intended right but I mean in in truth that is kind of where they're at and I think that based on you know our great questions from the audience I think that we've come a long way but we still have kind of the more complicated learning right that whole concept of transformative learning right where you have the implicit learning whereas I've learned waterfall for so long and now I'm starting to learn agile and I can't necessarily explain why I'm doing the things I'm doing because change is the only constant right and we live in a complex world yeah and the explicit learning of the only way I'm going to learn is by interacting with others that don't necessarily have the same sort of outlook on things as I do and we as coaches have to kind of continue to propagate that this person to this person this person whether it being teams leadership overall organization we need to to break some of the implicit learning that we have from that transformed learning and and and try to encourage That explicit learning right right and one of the good things is that I know I'm interrupting you no no you're good no one of the good things when we talked earlier don't interrupt me but I'm the host I'm the host I the one Host this is my one shot one of the one ear earlier on we talked about leadership and you know leadership can sometimes miss the boat as far as you know understanding what real transfer and adopting that but the good thing that we're getting into a phase where now some of the PO people who have grown up in these agile teams are now getting into a level of leadership and moving up those ranks and that's what's encouraging to me is that if you get someone who's who's had that agile mindset infused in them and the notion of I'm constantly learning I'm constantly experimenting that's what's going to help you know our old established companies become very similar to the Googles of the world to adopt that lean agile thinking at a leadership level and I'm encouraged by that as they move up into those levels of lead sir you're encouraged by the Millennials moving up I don't know about this wow I did say that didn't I did just say that I did say and you know there there are certain people including this audience that I believe in you know they they ask good questions um although theyd be like two three four-part questions but uh you know I I think that you're absolutely right I me I think I think part of it is is that when we talk about and when we talked with sha in our previous podcast about transformation you had said shot I think very eloquently you know the mind and the hands can do one thing but if you don't change the heart can we really change how we're doing anything and I and I think that's true for any generation you know whether it's been people that have gotten to the point that we a leadership and they have to really look at their their true heart and how why they do the things they do versus well from my mindset I did this so everyone else needs to do it so yeah I think it's it's a concept I call you know fat brains and there's a lot of research around this right yes absolutely what I have been you know privileged in working with a lot of you know fresh graduates from college interns from college just observing them you know working with them on the sidelines watching them grow watching them flourish and it's been a joyous Pursuit because I don't know if they've learned anything from me but I have learned a whole lot just by being around them because they do push the envelope they challenge me to bring my aame to work every day and that's what I love right that's the in attention to attention yeah right I mean literally I mean they're being scattered all over the place but the that's almost good because they're not so ingrained in their ways yeah right so uh I want to finish up saying you know we'd like to thank Shiloh and Steve uh for joining us us inside the atel after dark Apollo 13 Studio I want to kind of sum up as L Zoo once said there are many paths to Enlightenment be sure to take one with a heart nice good so there there is a list of heart and passion uh expressed with our guests and I hope you have enjoyed this special edition of agile after dark so good night and good luck to all of you so so what email do people have to uh send a request to to get access to that unedit un uh oh that's a good one no [Music] you unrated unrated agile after dark.com unrated at agile after dark.com uncut unut yeah unut well no do they uncut is that what the DVD uncut is it uncut uncut really the millennial I should have done better see my mind immediately given the context my mind immediately went to Jewish circumcision a [Music]