‘The point [of Project 2025] is to erase the idea that trans people are real’

>>> BEFORE THE BREAK I TOLD YOU ABOUT PROJECT 2025'S LONG- STANDING EFFORT TO BUILD A NICE QUEER AND TRANSGENDER AMERICANS ACQUITTING LGBTQ IDENTITY WITH PORNOGRAPHY AND OBSCENITY. JOINING US TO TALK ABOUT THIS IS AMAR JONES, CHAIR OF THE TRANSGENDER LA CENTER AND CEO OF TRANS MEDIA. LEAH LITTMAN AS PROFESSOR OF UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN LAW SCHOOL, COFOUNDER OF WOMEN KNOW LAW AND MY COHOST ON THE PODCAST. YOU HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION'S LONG- STANDING EFFORTS TO PUSH AND ANTI-TRANS IDEOLOGY FOR YEARS. THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION ACHIEVE THESE GOALS THROUGH STATE-LEVEL LEGISLATION THAT THEY PUSHED DURING THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION. MUCH OF THIS IS IN EFFECT TODAY. WHAT IS THE IMPACT OF THIS LEGISLATION AND WHAT WILL BE THE LIKELY IMPACT IF THERE IS A SECOND TRUMP RESIDENCY? >> I THINK THAT THE REALITY IS THAT A SECOND TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND PRESENTS PEOPLE THAT ARE TRANS GENDER EXPENSIVE WITH AND EXISTENTIAL THREAT, AND X ESSENTIAL, POTENTIAL ASSAULT BY THE ADMINISTRATION. AND THAT IS BECAUSE THEY ALREADY HAD A TEST RUN IN THE FIRST ADMINISTRATION, AS A MATTER OF FACT, ONE OF THE ARCHITECTS OF PROJECT 2025 IS --, THE PERSON WHO CONSTRUCTED MANY OF THE ANTI-TRANS POLICIES DURING THE FIRST TRIP ADMINISTRATION, THEY ACTUALLY WORK SHOPPED WHILE AT THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION. SAID THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WE ALREADY HAD A DRY RUN AT. SO THEY WILL COME IN WITH A MUCH STRONGER SENSE OF WHERE THE PRESSURE POINTS ARE AND I THINK THAT WHAT WE REALLY NEED TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT PROJECT 2025 WOULDN'T BE POSSIBLE WITHOUT THIS ORIGINAL TEST RUN. WHERE THEY EXPERIMENTED ON HOW TO WEAPONIZE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AGAINST A GROUP OF AMERICANS. AND ALL THEY HAVE DONE WITH PROJECT 2025 IS WRAP UP ALL OF THE LEARNING THEY GAINED FROM THIS BROAD ASSAULT ON TRANS AND EXPANDED TO A VARIETY OF COMMUNITIES WHICH IS WHY THERE IS OUTCRY. SO I THINK WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND THE ORIGINS OF PROJECT 2025 THINKING COMES FROM THIS IN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION. >> AMAR HAS SPOKEN ABOUT THE THREAT TO TRANS PEOPLE BUT THERE'S A BROADER DISCUSSION ABOUT EQUATING, EVEN DISCUSSION OF GENDER SEXUALITY WITH PORNOGRAPHY. WHAT IS BEHIND THIS TACTIC AND HOW IS IT GOING TO BE SUCCESSFUL AND WHAT WILL IT ACHIEVE? >> I THINK WHAT THEY ARE TRYING TO DO IS ENFORCE TRADITIONAL GENDER ROLES. THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY. AND BASICALLY GIVE PEOPLE THE FREEDOM NOT TO DEFY TRADITIONAL GENDER ROLES BUT INSTEAD TO REQUIRE EVERYONE ELSE TO PERFORM THEM. AND THIS COMES FOR EXAMPLE WHEN THEY DECLARE THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE WOULD BE USED TO BASICALLY UNDERMINE CIVIL RIGHTS PROTECTIONS FOR THE TRANSGENDER COMMUNITY AS WELL AS THE QUEER COMMUNITY. THEY WANT THE GOVERNMENT TO BE ARGUING IT IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL TO PROHIBIT DISCRIMINATION ON THE BASIS OF SEXUAL ORIENTATION AND GENDER IDENTITY BECAUSE IT DOESN'T ALLOW THE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO EIGHT ON THE BASIS OF SEXUAL ORIENTATION AND -- TO DO THAT. YOU COMBINE THAT WITH EFFORTS TO BASICALLY FORCE MOTHERHOOD ON AMERICAN WOMEN, AND THEY ARE DESPERATELY TRYING TO TAKE US BACK TO A TIME WHEN PEOPLE WERE NOT ALLOWED TO BE THEMSELVES AND DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES WHEN THEY WOULD BECOME MOTHERS AND WHAT THEY WOULD DO WITH THEIR LIVES. >> YOU HAVE TOUCHED A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THIS, THIS IS AN INVITATION MAYBE TO ELABORATE ON IT. BUT THE GOALS OF THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION AND CHRISTIAN CONSERVATISM HAS BEEN TO FILL A NICE TRANS PEOPLE SO FEARS IN GENERAL AND SOME OF THIS IS ABOUT TRYING TO LIMIT THE PERFORMANCE OF NORMS THAT AREN'T CONSISTENT WITH TRADITIONAL GENDER NORMS. WHAT YOU SEE HAPPENING IN THE FUTURE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IF ONE HAPPENS, THAT WOULD BE MORE EXPENSIVE OF THE EFFORTS IN YOUR COMMUNITY? >> I THINK TWO THINGS. ONE IS WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT UNLIKE PROGRESSIVES, TO BE FRANK ABOUT AND ALSO LIBERALS, THE CHRISTIAN NATIONALIST MOVEMENT DOES NOT SEE TRANS PEOPLE IN ISOLATION FROM A RANGE OF OTHER ISSUES. THEY SEE IT AS DIRECT THE CONNECTED TO ABORTION. THEY SEE IT DIRECTLY CONNECTED TO BODILY AUTONOMY OVER ALL. THEY SEE IT DIRECTLY, DID TWO ISSUES OF IMMIGRATION BECAUSE SO MUCH OF WHAT THEY ARE THINKING WHEN IT COMES TO THESE GROUPS OF PEOPLE, IS THE PRESERVATION OF RIGHT CHRISTIAN CULTURE IN THE UNITED STATES. THAT IS WHY THERE IS A FOCUS ON IT BECAUSE IT IS NOT FOR THEM, ISOLATED OR A MARGINAL ISSUE, IT IS A CENTRAL ONE IN THE PROJECT TO MAINTAIN WHITE CHRISTIANITY. SO I WANTED TO STATE THAT. THE WITHIN THAT I THINK WHAT WE ARE GOING TO SEE, IS THE LITERAL ERASURE OF TRANS PEOPLE. I THINK YOU WILL SEE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT NOT ALLOW FOR TRANS PEOPLE TO BE RECOGNIZED IN ANY WAY, BOTH IN TERMS OF I.D., IN TERMS OF HEALTH CARE, IN TERMS OF EDUCATION. SCHOOLS WOULD NOT HAVE TO BE SAFE. TRANS PEOPLE WOULD NOT RECEIVE EQUAL ACCESS TO HEALTH CARE. TRANS PEOPLE, BECAUSE OF THE ERASURE WOULD FACE OPEN DISCRIMINATION ON JOBS AND HOUSING. AND I THINK THAT THE WHOLE POINT IS TO ERASE, LITERALLY ERASE THE IDEA THAT TRANS PEOPLE ARE REAL, THROUGH ALL OF THE INSTRUMENTS OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. AND IT IS NOT GOING TO STOP THERE. I DON'T KNOW AN AUTHORITARIAN REGIME THAT TARGETED A GROUP OF PEOPLE --. >> THAT IS AN EXCELLENT POINT. LEAH, IN ORDER TO ERASE A GROUP OF PEOPLE, YOU ACTUALLY NEED HANDPICKED PERSONNEL AT EVERY LEVEL OF GOVERNMENT OR WITH THE PROGRAM. THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION AND PROJECT 2025 HAS BEEN CLEAR ABOUT INSTALLING HANDPICKED CONSERVATIVES, WHO ARE WILLING TO GO ALONG WITH THE PROJECT. AMARA MENTIONED THIS BUT TO HIGHLIGHT HIM AGAIN, PROJECT 2025 LOWTHER WHO IS THE DIRECTOR OF THE DIVORCE CENTER FOR RELIGION AND CIVIL SOCIETY AT THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION IN 2015 BEFORE BEING APPOINTED TO DIRECT THE OFFICE OF CIVIL RIGHTS AND DIRECTOR OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES DURING THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS KNOWN TO BE ANTI-LGBTQ RIGHTS AND IN HIS ROLE AT HHS, HE REMOVED PROTECTIONS FOR LGBTQ PEOPLE, ALLOWING DOCTORS TO REFUSE TO TREAT PATIENTS BASED ON SEXUALITY OR GENDER IDENTITY. WHAT IS HIS LIKELY ROLE IN THE FUTURE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IF THAT HAPPENS, AND WHAT WILL THE IMPACT OF THAT BE FOR THE TRANS COMMUNTIY? >> IT IS DIFFICULT TO KNOW EXACTLY WHERE THEY WOULD PLACE HIM. AND I THINK THERE WOULD DEFINITELY BE PART OF A PLAN TO INSTALL HIM SOMEWHERE WHERE HE WOULD BE ABLE TO CARRY OUT THE PLANS, PERHAPS AS THE HEAD OF THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES, WHEREAS YOU KNOW PART OF PROJECT 2025'S PLAN IS BASICALLY TO DENY CIVIL RIGHTS PROTECTIONS ON THE BASIS OF SEXUAL ORIENTATION AND GENDER IDENTITY IN THE AREAS OF HEALTH CARE AND EDUCATION. ONE OF THE CORE PLATFORMS IS TO ARGUE THE SUPREME COURT DECISION WHICH HELD A PLAYERS CANNOT DISCRIMINATE ON THE BASIS OF SEXUAL ORIENTATION AND GENDER IDENTITY AND ARGUE THE DECISION DOESN'T APPLY TO HEALTH CARE, EDUCATION AND A VARIETY OF OTHER SOCIAL SERVICES. THAT THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICE ADMINISTERS, AND OTHER PEOPLE WHO ARE PART OF PROJECT 2025 AND OFFER DIFFERENT CHAPTERS HAVE ARGUED THAT HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN AND SO THESE ARE THE KINDS OF PEOPLE THAT THEY ARE HOPING TO INSTALL AT THE HEAD OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO IMPLEMENT THE VISION OF DENYING RIGHTS TO TRANSIENT PEOPLE, THE QUEER COMMUNITY , AND MORE. THAN EVER STOP WITH ONE COMMUNITY AND INSTEAD LUMP IT ALTOGETHER UNDER SOME UMBRELLA, TO BILL AND EYES DIFFERENT COMMUNITIES AND TO DISTRACT FROM THE FACT THAT THE BIGGEST PROBLEMS FACING OUR COUNTRY IS SIMPLY NOT WHERE STUDENTS P OR WHAT SPORTS TEAMS THEY ARE ON. THERE ARE REAL HEALTH CARE CRISES, CRISES OF GUN VIOLENCE AND THIS IS PART OF AN EFFORT TO DISTRACT THE COUNTRY FROM THOSE REAL PROBLEMS AND ALLOW THEM TO INSTITUTE THE AGENDA, WHICH NO ONE WANTS, AND FORCE IT ON THE COUNTRY. >> AMARA, ONE OF THE THINGS STRIKING ABOUT THIS ATTACK ON THE TRANS COMMUNTIY IS IS NOT ESPECIALLY ORIGINAL. THE FEAR MONGERING ABOUT TRANS IN THE DANGER THAT TRANS IDENTITY POSES TO CHILDREN IS SOMETHING CONSERVATIVES HAVE BEEN DOING FOR YEARS. IT IS NOT ESPECIALLY ACCURATE. THEY ARE PUSHING FALSEHOODS THAT KIDS ARE PUSHED INTO SURGERIES AND THAT ALL OF THIS IS GREAT AMONG TRANS ADULTS THAT RECEIVED TREATMENT. ALL OF THIS IS A GROSS MYTH TERRY -- MISCHARACTERIZATION OF HEALTH CARE. CAN YOU SAY MORE ABOUT THE STANDARD PLAY AND HOW IT IS BEING TRANSLATED TO THE AMERICAN PUBLIC, AS THE ASSAULT CONTINUES. >> I THINK THAT ONE OF THE IMPORTANT THINGS TO THINK ABOUT IS THAT THIS ENTIRE EFFORT TO MISINFORM THE AMERICAN PUBLIC ABOUT TRANS PEOPLE AS PART OF A LARGER POLITICAL AND RELIGIOUS PROJECT, IS THE RESULT OF A LOT OF -- THIS WILL SOUND STRANGE, A LOT OF INTELLIGENT BRAINWORK ON THEIR SIDE. THEY HAVE SPENT YEARS, FOCUS GROUPING AND WORK SHOPPING AND WORKING ON MESSAGING AND FIGURING OUT HOW YOU GET AMERICANS TO BE UNCOMFORTABLE WITH THE IDEA OF TRANS PEOPLE. THE AMERICAN PRINCIPLES PROJECT DID A LOT OF THIS WORK AND SO THEREFORE THE REASON THE DISINFORMATION IS SO IMPACTFUL, IS BECAUSE IT HAS BEEN RESEARCHED. THEY UNDERSTAND THESE ARE THE MESSAGES THAT ARE GOING TO BREAK THROUGH AND SEES HOLD AND MAKE PEOPLE UNCOMFORTABLE. SO I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS DIFFERENT ABOUT THE FEAR MONGERING NOW, IS THAT IT ACTUALLY IS GROUNDED IN A LOT OF RESEARCH AND THOUGHT. AND THAT IS HOW THEY HAVE BEEN ABLE IN A RELATIVELY QUICK PERIOD OF TIME, TO MOVE THE CONVERSATION ABOUT TRANS PEOPLE TO THE CENTER OF AMERICAN POLITICAL CONVERSATION, AS PART OF THIS PROJECT. SO I THINK WE CANNOT UNDERESTIMATE AND SAY THAT THIS IS SOMETHING WE HAVE SEEN BEFORE. THIS IS NOT WHAT THEY DID IN THE 1980s. THIS IS NOT ANITA BRYANT. THIS IS NOT JERRY FALWELL SPILLING OUT. THIS IS A RESULT OF A GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO ARE VERY INTELLIGENT, WHO UNDERSTAND THE WAY THE AMERICAN CONVERSATION AND MEDIA AND JOURNALISM WORK, AND HAVE GONE ABOUT HACKING THE SYSTEM THROUGH SOME REALLY SMART WAYS. AND WE CAN'T