Ben Ainslie

[Music] hi everyone and welcome back to the yacht racing podcast I'm your host Justin chisolm and my guest this time is British sailor sir Ben anley the most successful Olympic yachtsman of all time and the skipper and team principal at America's Cup Challenger inos team UK Ang has experienced highs and lows at the Americas cup over the last two cycles he was an integral part of Oracle team USA's amazing in comeback victory at the 34th Cup in San Francisco but came home from the 35th Cup in Bermuda a disappointed man after his Land Rover B Syndicate failed to make it past the Louis Vuitton Challenger Series now he's back with a fully funded campaign bankroll by patriotic British businessman Jim Ratcliffe and more determined than ever to bring the America's Cup back to the UK I spoke to saan on Skype from the team's headquarters in Portsmouth in the UK [Music] UK so Ben anley welcome to the yacht racing podcast um I'm speaking to you at the end of the second week in February and um I guess you're probably winding down to the weekend after a busy week so can you give us a snapshot of what your week's been like what have you been up to who you've been talking to well yeah it's it's blowing about 40 knots and 5° in Portsmouth so it's been but it's been a busy week we as you can imagine a lot of lot of design work going on at the moment with our first race boat you're coming online later this summer everything else that goes along with that and then you know starting back sailing operations getting our test boat back on the water and then planning for the rest of the year so yes busy period and uh and also we spent a bit been spending a bit of time with Jim Ratcliffe lately as well with some some fun things on the on the inos side of of our of our organization sounds interesting well we'll we'll we'll come back to that in a second now obviously you're you're a UK team you're a very british-based team um and I think that's important to you personally um so you're training out of a a very nice base in in Portsmouth probably probably the nicest of the America's Cup team basis I would say has there been any limitation on the amount of sailing you've been able to do just given the weather I know today is a probably a prime example of of extreme weather yeah well we are obviously limited with the weather in the UK over the winter months and and in the last campaign we s grunted up and and thought through that on a for a couple of winters and I think there few uh sessions we out sailing our our foiling multi hole around in the snow and and struggling struggling through that so yeah this winter we we're off to off to a different venue for our for our winter training and to hopefully you know make that much more productive and then clearly into launching our our first race boat in in the Sol later on in the summer it's a great it's a great venue um from sort of March March through to November we have um generally pretty good conditions reasonably flat water in the solent the tide can be a little bit of of an issue in terms of sort of performance mon monitoring but no in general it's been it's been a fantastic venue for us here in Portsmouth and and also a great race venue as well I think we saw with the two World Series events that we had here through the last America's Cup cycle showcasing some fantastic racing so I'm I right in thinking you're going to go to another venue or you've been at another venue training yeah yeah we're we're we're currently at another venue overseas and and looking for some warmer weather right and to keep you know as I said to keep the productivity going so we're uh you know we're working hard on that and it's been good to see American magic out there as well over in in Florida getting some good sailing in in their test boat and you know expecting to see Luna Rosa back out there soon and and New Zealand you know later on in the year and I'm guessing by the fact you haven't mentioned where this venue is that this is a this is a top secret location well it is at the moment probably the other teams will find out where we are soon enough I don't know we're not going to give him any hand out handouts here no absolutely not we'll keep we'll keep it keep it going as long as we can absolutely well I don't want to I don't want to break the code on that one so I won't I won't ask any more questions but Ben you were the first team to launch a test boat it's the modified 28 foot Quant that looked like a real handful to learn how to sell what what was that experience like oh was an amazing experience it's has really been an eye opener to get out in this new concepted boat as you can probably see by some of the footage read some pretty big wipeouts and some fun moments some pretty exhilarating moments as well and so really just learning how this that concept of boat sailes and operates from a sailing perspective but you know primarily the focus as you can imagine being on the design and and and the development and then how how did that what were the learnings from that that really went into to our design for race boat one and then through to the rest of the development program can you describe what what a typical day looks like when you take that boat out because I'm you know there's I think there's two of you that sail it but there's probably an awful lot more people involved in that uh in that process well that's right it's a big Squad you know maintaining the boat and developing the boat most importantly and the systems on there are very Advanced and that's going to be key again that's going to be key developing those systems through this boat that that end up eventually on the race boat and then the other areas as you as you probably seen the development of the rig and the sails not entirely New Concept but new for the America's Cup with the double fi Main and that that also being a big part of the development program so some key focuses there and that's been great a great learning process and development process and then from the Sailor perspective just a huge amount of fun to be out there on these pretty wild boats getting a feel for what the bigger version will will be like although I have to say I certainly hope we we can avoid too many crashes in the big boat like we've had in the in the little boat so when you're out sailing this boat typically is it the same two people is it yourself I think I've seen you and Giles in in the photos sailing together is is it typically you two or are you rotating people through that well we rotate around a little bit we've got a core development Squad and the sailing team really and that's just dependent on people's schedules and you know J ja has got along with his fin campaign um other guys have different responsibilities around the team so it works quite well to have a squad of sort of four or five Sailors that that rotate in and out of that boat and keep it developing you know that's been a really important process to work with the designers and and a lot of it is is really just the feedback from the from the sors yes we have the data readouts and the analysis and so on but a lot of it is just the feel of how the boat performs with different setups and different changes and that's been really important to build those relationships I think I think everybody who who saw the original concept for the for the foiling monole kind of took a little gasp when we saw it you were the first people really to prove that this whole theoretical design worked how nervous were you when you when you took that boat out for the first time well you know Grant Dalton told me that this boat was going to work it was going to be a fantastic boat we just we just belied that would be the case no in in all seriousness we we didn't know it certainly looked like a very very exciting con concept and we we did have a meeting with Grant and Dan Bon esone and a few of the other guys from the other teams and talked through it and a few eyebrows raised and I I think probably honestly if you ask Grant and Dan they they weren't entirely sure if the concept would work either but they've done a great job and it is a really I think it's a really neat compromise between clearly there was a push for monol and something a little bit more like what we traditionally seen in the cup but also keeping these fast foiling boats alive and that development going as well yes I mean it's still to a certain extent it's still yet to be proven at the at the largest scale but from what we've seen with our boat and and American magic with a slightly larger version mule as I call it you know you'd like to like to think that this this concept will work at that scale and will be a very impressive Y and and what we've seen of those two boat sailing primarily I think on on flat water I mean they the speeds are speeds a breathtaking on on both of the boats can you kind of scale it up in your mind and and kind of describe what you you know what you think the the ac75 monol fullsize version is going to be like to sell yeah I mean I've got some feel for it in my mind and just the performance prediction and so on it's uh you know it's going to be an exceptional boat I think it's going to be to look at um is going to be an extremely impressive boat and to sail it is again it's going to be a huge challenge you know you look at the roles on the boat the energy consumption having the code zero so the sail handling trimming the Maneuvers it's it's going to be really full on for the sailing team to be able to sell sail the boat to it its maximum performance and to handle it that way and then the race courses the proposed race courses size of the courses and boundaries and so on you know I think I think we're going to really have our work cut out from Mercedes persp perspective which is good you know that's what you want you want to be pushed to the Limit and I think we certainly will we'll see that do you think we'll see the the closeness of racing that we saw in um in Bermuda by the end of the of the of the cycle well I certainly hope so there's always a bit of a danger of A New Concept and class role like this that someone sort of you know you Nails it and Nails a design process and and gets a gets a jump on the fleet and they're um you know unassailable will we'll see but hope hopefully hopefully that's not the case and we end up with with some really close racing and spectacular racing and that that scale a boat at those sorts of speeds would be like I said will be really something very special to watch fair amount of these new boats um are going to be one design there there significant elements in the whole thing so from a team point of view where are you focusing Your Design work what what what are the what are the key areas where you think you might be able to drive some competitive Advantage yeah that's that's right there are supplied elements are One Design Elements I mean the obvious areas you know people would would point to would be the the wings on the foils and the the the rig and the well the sails and a little bit the rig uh the systems on the boat but you know I still think sounds obvious but you it's not it probably won't just be one area I think it'll be you know be the whole package and then being able to maximize the performance of that I think certainly the last couple of cup who've seen teams coming through the eventual winner you know maybe not the fastest boat at the beginning of the of the cycle certainly not in 2013 anyway and the team that came out on top just doing a really really good job of developing getting absolute Max performance potential out of out of their boat or their tool and you know that that's going to be I'm sure that will again be the cas this next time around let's talk a little bit about the the team structure that you've you've got got there it's it's very different isn't it to to last time around um you've a if I can kind of sum it up you've got a a new backer um and and just one one person or one organization providing the funding in this where last time he had several you know different sources and several lots of people to keep happy does that free you up as a as the kind of as the the sailing team leader and the and the leader of the campaign is that free you up to focus more on the sailing yeah it does suit does definitely you last time around we were obviously a new organization and we had some extremely generous investors and and sponsors um but it was very difficult you know by the time we got that funding in place we were behind the existing teams from 2013 and and really playing catch up from day one and obviously weren't able to bridge that Gap although I thought the team did an incredible job particularly in the last four or five months of the campaign to really make some big games in performance and then we had this you know understandably difficult process coming back identifying you know okay we're a new organization but we didn't perform well enough you know what changes do we need to make and then going through the proposals from from Grant Dalton and and the and and Max and and the guys at lunar Rosa on to until the next cycle and then this realization that well this is this is a really impressive boat but is going to be cheap and looking at the commercial world you know especially in the UK issues with brexit and and the financial market and so on you know this sort of realization it was going to be a real real struggle to raise the sort of required budget and and at a similar time I was very uh fortunate to be introduced to Jim rackliffe who who shared the shared the vision passionate about Britain in sport and and could sort of grasps that challenge the technical challenge of the America's C I think one of the big things that really Drew Drew him to the to the project and we got on very well and uh and then within the space of a couple of months we were able to to turn things around and so yeah now we we're very fortunate to have the backing um the budget committed and and made some some really nice changes um well not change I mean to to be able to attract people like Grant Dalton and uh sorry Grant Dalton Grant simmer even FL didn't slip there um Grant simmer and Nick Hy AC the team and some other some other key signings um to to help bolster Us in in a few key areas um has made a great difference so we you know I'm really delighted with the way the team has developed and where we've got ourselves too but also acutely aware of the challenge ahead and and and the quality of the teams that we're up against you you may not remember this but in um at the cup in San Francisco I interviewed you and um we talked about the possibility of you having your own campaign at that stage and it was long before bar and all of that but but we talked about you know who you would hire what what would be the key highs and and at that stage you mentioned Grant simmer as being you know probably top of your list in terms of people you'd want what is it about his skill set his his personality that um that you know you find so kind of appealing yeah I've known Grant now for about eight years we' got together with Team origin I was managed to convince him to come AC cross after the lingi campaign and and and help us out there with Keith Mills and we just got on very very well and really you know given my role in in the team and and sailing on the boat and that side of things and being acutely aware of sort of previous uh issues with people trying to run campaigns and sale and do everything and and knowing that you need need someone of that caliber you know really that to me there are there are only you know a handful of people in in the world that that could do that job or that you know frankly I'd be willing to to give that responsibility too and Grant is really at the top of that list because you know he is the most experienced person in the America's Cup this is his 11th campaign and and also the fact that he's you know really the complete America's Cup competitor if you like having having competed and one as a sailor as a design coordinator and as as a manager so having that complete understanding of the of the sport and of the challenge I think is uh not totally but it's you know it's uh very very few people with that level of experience and you know he's got a great personality he's incredibly intelligent and we happen to get on which which is a major bonus so uh no I was yeah like I said I was absolutely delighted to be able to convince as he says after much badgering on my behalf to come across and join us and you know he's done a fantastic job he really really is doing a great job for the team as you know as well as neck and and and a lot of the other key key people that that have come across to help you know the guys we you know we built up a fantastic team last time around and many of those majority of that team are still with us and uh you know it's just in in a few key areas adding to that skill set and and getting the right balance so let's talk about the structure of that team what what does it look like in terms of size and and kind of what are the percentages that people are allocated to to different departments I'm I'm guessing design is a big area yeah yeah design is is is huge you'd imagine with this challenge in this new class of boats we about four 40 people in in the design team and that's led by Nick Hy again Q's talent in the cup and uh really impressed with the way he's handled this this new project and and new coming into new organization uh we've got about 100 people in the whole organization um we're quite Keen or focused on not growing above that uh just in terms of the sort of scale of these things as you get bigger than that you inevitably then you need more support more admin more everything and and the thing can just just go go out of sort of proportion really and easy to lose focus and you know the sailing team got 15 guys and the sailing team uh again got some great um new additions uh primarily out of the arimus team last time around so Luke Parkinson Chris brittle Ian Jensen and those guys again have had already had had a big impact coming into the team and and doing a great job so we're we're a mixture of about 75% of the original team from the last time around and and some new people coming in you know I think like I said that just bringing a few new faces in I think has helped to to get the balance right and learn from different campaigns different experiences and get people focused and and working working on that common goal now you mentioned earlier that that some of the sailing team kind of dive out and go and do other projects and G Scott has his his Olympic campaign in the thin but I I also see a couple of the sailors like Luke Parkinson and Ian Jensen taking part in the in the sale GP circuit as well is is there a benefit to the team to you being to those guys being involved in that I definitely I mean cgp is a great great circuit and to really hats off to to Russell KS and Larry Ellison to develop that on the back of what the framework agreement from the from the last America's Cup was really focused towards and it's you know it' be great to see how that I think the first R is coming up down in Sydney I'm sure that will be really impressive and that is the sort of racing that you want uh you want your your Sailors to be out there performing you know high high ultimate high performance high level racing so yes those guys are out some of those guys are out there doing that Neil Hunter who was one of our Academy Sailors from last time around and Nick Hutton as well is another one of our Sailors so yeah we're really pushing our guys to be out there sailing high performance boats dingies any any kind of high performance racing really to keep them sharp and keep them current we saw you on the gc32 circuit last time well last season will will we see that repeated this time at the moment we we're looking at that program yeah there's been a few CH changes you've probably seen in terms of the ownership of the extreme sailing series and the management of that that circuit but it worked really well for us last season to just get out there do some decent racing in a in a high performance boat salers working together in a team environment under under the pressure of racing and we'll probably do that again there is still an element of of unknown with the scheduling uh you know ran a racing for the America's Cup World Series and so we're just sort of adjusting our program around that okay now Ben you mentioned uh Jim Ratliff earlier on right at the beginning of the interview and Jim obviously is the is the owner of of inos the man that um is it right you persuaded him over a pint in a pub to spend 110 million pounds with you well I was a little bit of conjecture whether it's was a pint or a j and tonic I think it was a quote where he said it was the most expensive J and tonic in while sending his experience um yeah yeah no we we we we met for a mutual friend and go on very very well and like I said share this sort of common goal or interest in sport and British Sport and so on and like I said Jim really was attracted to the technical element of the America's Cup and the history as well history and Prestige and and so on and uh so yeah we we managed to move forwards which has been fantastic now from the outside that seems like a match made in heaven it's it's the America's Cup with a British team and a highly patriotic well-funded owner of the team on a practical level though how does that work how how much time do you how much time do you spend with Jim how much is he involved and and how does that all work well we spend quite a lot of time with Jim uh Mo mostly on business a couple of times actually but uh you know so gr and and Nick and and myself um probably catch up with Jim um once a month or something like that or B monthly and we just run through the program um and he's very very interested and engaged in in what we're up to both from the sporting side and the technical side and I'm sure will be as we get closer to getting into competition and closer to the Cup itself we'll become more and more engaged obviously inos as a business is incredibly uh is growing and is incredibly successful and and is his Gym's main focus but uh you know he really wants he really wants this campaign to be a success and uh and that's that's what we want to deliver for for him and for the rest of the team and and for British sailing so you said you've been doing some fun stuff with Jim is that stuff you can talk about or should we should we leave that probably not probably not all right we'll move we'll move swiftly on on that one um so Ben I wanted to ask you um that there must be somewhere in in the building there a kind of timeline a plan for the team that that leads up to the the start of racing uh down in ockland for the qualific Series where would you put yourself on that plan are are you are you ahead are you bang on target are you a little bit behind what's what's the state of play well the stuff we can control bits we can control I think we're we're relatively on On Target as much as we we can be we're still waiting for confirmation of the of the schedule for some of the races for next year and you know a little bit to do I think with the um with the suggested entry of new new teams and then what effect that has on the uh on the program of World Series and then leading into the Christmas race and then the Cup itself so you know a little bit a little bit of that uh scheduling is out of our hands and we just have to focus on on what we can and we'll we'll alter that schedule as and when we get more information from uh Defender and Challenger of record one of the other key things that I guess you guys like all the teams are waiting for are the are the foil arms the the I think these are part of the one design elements of the of the equipment um that are being designed and manufactured by somebody else and that there has been a delay and I think it's you know it's been fairly um well known that they had to start again almost on the design of that um where are we up to with that now yeah I mean that that design is uh yeah I mean these are obviously hugely High loaded um Parts on the boat so uh you know I think yes there was an issue with the initial design I think it was quite neat that the teams that were were involved at that stage came together and sort of mutually to find a find a solution to to those design shes those structural issues and get that back on track um so yeah you know I think whether or not it's hits the deadline exactly to the day you know we we'll see but uh I think it won't be too far out of out of schedule uh certainly not to to to delay the teams um too much for getting on the water later on this year so that doesn't feel like a limiting factor to you or at least a major limiting factor to you at this stage not at the moment um no I think I I'm being no I think I think it should be fine from the monitoring we've had of the of the manufacturing process and the the um like I said the adjustment to the structural uh design of of these parts I think I think it should be fun you feel feel like you're just about there on time with the plan and the whole thing so what does the what does the timetable look like the road map for uh Team inos UK for the rest of this year let's say yeah as we talked about earlier we um we got a lot of guys out out racing um we just got to finalize our racing program if we get involved with the gc32 and and that's that's a nice story in that um that will be under our Rebels Banner if you like which is development of the Apprentice program so moving on from the academy that we had back in the bar campaign and and focusing that more on on on a couple of individuals that have come through that are that have now joined the senior sailing team and will be mentored through to being able to race in the cup in 2021 so yeah I think that's something we really we really wanted to try and give focus in on giving a couple of uh individuals that opportunity you know it's quite a broad program last time around with the Academy I think we had sort of up to 100 Sailors that came through team went on to win the youth Americas cup which was you really really solid result great achievement and then you know again the development of that to having a couple of individuals coming through felt like the right shift for us and and so they'll they'll race with us on on that um GC program as we get the the schedule for the circuit yeah that that's really the focus on the Sailing sailing team and the other regas that the guys are out there racing on around the place and then the continual development of of the test boat launching the the big boat is obviously going to be uh key for all you know all of the teams I'd imagine going through this this year this European summer and uh and then we'll work around the program as we as we receive it from uh from Challenger record and defender in terms of world series events and scheduling all the way up to ockland yeah and and just just to clarify is there an intention from your team to to build you you've got the Quant you're building your first ac75 is that the boat you will race in the cup or do you plan to build a second boat yeah I don't know at this stage um we'll have to see how the first boat goes and uh and then we'll make a decision from there but I mean it's uh obviously you're allowed to build two boats have to be a good reason reason not to but uh we we'll see how the first boat goes first okay were were you intrigued by team New Zealand's decision to to not rely on the simulator and to and to build themselves a uh a test boat if you like I was I'm not actually aware the key whether they're building a test boat or not was that saying that they're not or they are yeah no I believe that I believe that they are and it was I interviewed Ray Davis a little while ago a few months ago and he you asked him about this idea of just going down the route of using the simulator and and they seem pretty committed to that and it was only a few weeks later um that uh that they announced that they were going to they were in fact going to build a test boat um and I I wondered whether it was partly because of some of the success they'd seen with the Quant and also with the mule over in uh in the US yeah maybe maybe um there certainly been quite a lot of reconnaissance on between the different teams which is which you'd understand and potentially might be something to do with with the scheduling for racing next year getting their boat around the place from New Zealand and and other development focuses for them so yeah you know with these programs is trying to figure out you know what what the key areas development are how can you get that and do you need you know if they decided they need a test boat I'm sure there are very valid reasons for that they can't just develop on the simulator if you could have more of one thing right now what would it be H well time is always the one thing you can't buy that uh that everyone talks about in these sorts of programs and I and I and I think also there's there's an element of uncertainty around the event at the moment in terms of the scheduling and the teams and so on which again is Not Unusual in the America's cap so it's something you just have to deal with and um try and make sure we we keep focused on what we can do well and develop our schedule as as and when uh that information becomes available and as a very Bri British team you you don't really have any limitations on you in terms of when you move the whole thing down to New Zealand and start to train on the waters where the cup will actually be contested because you know you're you're fundamentally a I think all the sailing team are pretty much British so do you have any thoughts on on when that might happen when you might head down to New Zealand well I mean the more time the more time you can spend at the race venue is always is always well received it's always positive a lot of us have spent many many years down in sing down in New Zealand and so reason good idea of the waters down there and what to expect and again really it just comes down to the schedule of uh of the world series events should we have those next year what does that mean in terms of uh you know shipping times and and all these sort of things you got to factor in to ultimately maximize your time on the water and and maximize development time ideally that would be in New Zealand but if it has to be somewhere else that's fine sounds like it's as much a logistics challenge as it is a sailing challenge right now yeah well it can be it can be uh I certainly those are those are some of the big S strategic decisions at the moment you you got to make take on board and um try and work around but uh you know we're we're in a good position in that we can react um we can you know we we're focusing hard on what we can do well at the moment and uh and we've got the capability to to react to what we need to you know as as things develop so Ben the America's Cup isn't without uh Intrigue at any stage in the game and this one doesn't look like it's going to be any different we have an arbitration panel uh available to the teams now and we've we've seen that in action quite recently with uh the nationality rule for the for the mtter team and again it seems like it's been brought into action now you probably know more about it than I do what what can you tell us possibly not very much yeah well that that's right I mean it's kicked off very recently um to do with the the entry process really under the protocol and uh and three of the three of the teams wanting to come in and yeah like you said can't really talk too openly about it because I guess that arbitration is is live effectively with submissions being passed and so on ultimately the arbitration have got to decide this and I I guess we just want that to be resolved as quickly as possible we just want to get on with this and any indecision uncertainty about what teams are entering or not only has a KnockOn effect to delay the process of getting you know foiled arms delivered and event schedules out and you know building towards a good competition so yeah I'm sure you know put Faith in the in the arbitration panel I'm sure they'll they'll come to a sound judgment and and we'll all crack on with it that's really how it works and uh you we look forward to to them resolving this issue you know as quickly as possible and like I said say you know that's in the interest of the competition really so that we can look forward to getting into racing next year I'm sure they will and we wish them well with that and Ben I wish you well with the Enos team UK challenge thanks for talking to me really do appreciate it and uh we'll check in with you again soon yeah we do take care [Music] thanks that's all for this episode of The Yacht racing podcast thanks go to my guest sben anley Skipper and CEO at inos Team UK and as ever thanks to you all for taking the time to listen so until the next episode I'll say goodbye for now and sail fast [Music] everyone