Kurt Andersen on Fantasyland: How America Went Haywire

welcome to the politics guys a place for a bipartisan rational and civil debate on American politics and policy I'm Michael baronowski a political scientist at North Kentucky University my guest today is Kurt Anderson Mr Anderson is the host and co-creator of the puddy awardwinning Studio 360 a weekly radio show about arts and culture he's written for film television and the stage and is the author of The novel's True Believers Heyday and turn of the century he's also the author of fantasy land how America went haywi of 500y year history which we'll be talking about today Kurt Anderson welcome to the show happy to be here M Fantasy Land came out in the fall of 17 I believe and it seems like it was just absolutely tailor made for the Trump presidency but if I understand correctly it actually wasn't intended to be a a Donald Trump book uh so I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about the Genesis of the book sure uh no uh Donald Trump probably wouldn't have been mentioned in the book might have been mentioned passingly but probably not had he not run for president I started thinking about it I don't know probably a decade ago and started decided to write it and started researching it uh in 2013 started writing 2014 was you know coming to the final stretch really in in early 2016 so uh Donald Trump Trump really appeared after I had spent years uh working on this book and and and making my case about this sort of alternate version of American history and then then you know becomes the embodiment of of almost all of my arguments at the end so uh I guess it's it's you know I've said it's it's the one way it's the at least for me personally it's the one silver lining of of uh Donald Trump's arrival uh on the national stage is that he he he became a kind of easy uh poster boy explanation for the Fairly complicated historical arguments uh that I make in fantasy yeah that that was sort of my my impression as well as he was wow what a great ending for the book but not necessarily the ending we would have uh we would have wanted at least those of us on the left certainly I would say well I I don't think and and I don't you know I don't think it it ought to or is necessarily just people on the left and I don't even consider myself very far left but yes I think that's right and but I did you know I remember early in 2016 one day after uh Donald Trump had won another primary saying to my wife wow if you actually gets the nomination that could be good for this book who knew uh how the rest of that uh that year would play out you know I I wanted to I guess start with talking about the book about well essentially what you mean by Fantasy Land what is it what characterizes it that sort of thing well I I I I use it a lot it's not simply the title of the book uh as you know I I mean the the what began as this this propensity when America itself began for passionately believing in either the the unprovable or the untrue and and that that has always been a part of the the kind of American idea and it hasn't always been a bad thing a lot of a lot of the the good parts of the American character in American history are about exactly that dream The Impossible Dream and all that um but but my CA my argument is that it it it uh certain parts of that overwhelmed other parts of the American character and especially in the last 50 years and has resulted in a in a situation where Americans way to way too great degree feel entitled to believe whatever they wish because it feels correct or feels good or feels right uh despite any or all empirical evidence to the contrary um and uh whether whether it's whether it's scientifically um refuted or otherwise logically refuted or or morally or anything else if it if it feels good I want to believe it if it's convenient to my place in the world I I choose to believe it whatever any experts say so that's that's what I uh mean by fantasy land it's it's it's the degree to which by my Reckoning maybe half or more of uh Americans are have really Fallen deeply prey to that kind of uh that kind of Uncertain grip by my Reckoning on reality one thing that I thought was just really fascinating uh in the book was I didn't realize how deep the roots of all this go I sort of assumed I think like a lot of people this was sort of a a modern thing but you point out that this goes all the way back to the first European settlers in the book you write America was founded by a Nutty religious cult people were resistant to reality checks and convinced they had special access to the truth uh can you can you talk a little bit about these people you know who they were and why they came to America well in that case I talk about the northern First Northern uh European English settlers the the we people we called the pilgrims and and of course the Puritans yeah they were um I mean I I we all in school grow up thinking of the the pilgrim as as these fantastic great people seeking uh religious freedom and of course they were seeking religious freedom and and and I'm not saying they were all bad either but they were this extreme little faction of a a of an extreme faction the separating Puritans of a fairly extreme faction of this new uh religion protestantism Puritans so they were they were a fringe group of people who who decided they they simply couldn't abide life in the in the um uh deplorable cities of and and and towns of England and then of of Holland and had to come to a had to come to this what they considered a blank slate of the new world and create uh not only their uh worldly Utopia but what they believe would be the place of the second coming and the New Jerusalem and the Millennium so they were it was a cult and and it was an extreme theologically extreme so and of course even though they were they were coming here to escape what was real persecution uh of various kinds uh in in England and Europe um they came here and and persecuted for a century uh anybody who dared to disagree with them whether it was Quakers or Catholics who happened into their their their colonies uh in New England so that's what I'm talking about uh in in that case and of course at the same time in the South the the English settlers were people moved to Virginia uh because they had been assured and really desperate to believe that there was gold for the plucking uh all over all over Virginia and Jamestown and ronoke and elsewhere and they just kept coming even though there was no goal to be had they kept coming kept dying kept coming and kept dying for a generation before they decided Well maybe not um so th those are the two not of of European settlement in America in in the early 1600s and uh uh I I I think I think their relationship to to reality is uh is not just metaphorically important I think I think it it really established important parts of what it means to be an American which is to believe whatever you wish right so so essentially we have this our our Founders if you were are this uh combination of this fanatically religious strain and this fanatically uh rapacious strain I guess you could say of people no exactly right exactly right and and and and in both cases um I mean not all religion is is fanatical and not all uh wish to make money and being industrious is is is obsessive but in this case it it it it really was what I thought was fascinating about this was that these people weren't just nuts in the way we might think about them but they didn't actually disavow empiricism they sort of adopted a a variant of it you call it in the book pseudo empiricism can you talk a little bit about what that was and how that fit into everything yeah the Puritans are are really an interesting case because they they they did consider themselves and even their theology a form of Science and science was just as was just emerging and so they they they um really regarded uh what they were doing as as a kind of uh scientific Endeavor or or a or what a a pseudo fact-based Endeavor they would see they would come across a a a a strangely shaped root and and decide oh that is a sign of of uh Satan's influence on the natives uh and and the way they looked at the way they they're they're kind of fed for interpreting um the the Bible in ways that were were already falling out of uh fashion if you will in in in in Protestant in in religion in in England um again they regarded as a kind of deep scientific interpretation of uh for instance the final book of the Bible Revelation in which they they they could discern uh very specific predictions about when and how the world was going to end and Jesus was going to return so yes and and and this and and the subsequent uh waves of Puritans who came after the initial pilgrims were indeed educated people by and large uh who who who were great readers and and uh so they combined that kind of enlightenment idea of reading and education and literacy and numeracy and all the rest with this set of theological beliefs that was uh absolutely medieval and and and kind of retrograde for at that time um so it was it was an unusual paradoxical combination I think it's interesting too you point out where throughout our history we can see this develop in terms of uh for instance uh Christian Science and Scientology and that sort of thing so you there are the roots and this kind of comes up again and again in American history in a way it really doesn't in Europe uh that's exactly right uh uh I mean we did have and for every un unfortunate uh thing I point out there are there is a good side to it the good side of of of of This was oh you're absolutely free to start any religion you wish and to be as entrepreneurial As You Wish about starting whatever religion you wish and and we're not going to stop it that's what our constitution provided uh a couple hundred years after the the first English arrived but and and what that meant is that yes any body could start any kind of religion and often as you mention with Christian Science and Scientology they are pseudoscientific uh religions which existed uh uh next to and among all kinds of other uh pseudoscientific uh ideas that were being sold in terms of medicine and patent medicines and magical cures for everything which was again that the the the pseudoscientific medicine was not only in America but it was more in America than in where else in the in the world at that time and certainly uh the the kinds of religions that sprang up uh in the United States and always have have no parallel anywhere else in terms of uh size and consequence and and and power uh it it it really is a defining part of of of what this country is for especially for the conservative listeners of show I want to point out that this isn't an attack on religion per se because in the book you talk a lot about the new age and spiritual movements and Link that into this same sort of thing uh absolutely I I I think you know people like Oprah Winfrey uh and and her followers and her various new age uh minions are as unhappy with me as as as anyone and and indeed I you know I grew up uh you know going to a Mainline Congregational Church and a Unitarian Church and and I and I am not uh By Any Means means I mean I I have I mean there are those who would consider me my me a blasphemer and an unbeliever but I'm not uh uh I I I do not I try in this book not to paint with a broad brush and say all religion is terrible and all belief in all faith is terrible I don't think that I I I but I but I think the the extreme versions of of belief in uh Supernatural uh reality uh and and and when is is problematic uh and and and and can become problematic especially when it um guides social policy Public Health policy and all the rest you know and we have these nuts these crazed fantasists on one hand but the people who created the United States were very different I mean the founders and the framers were were were rationalist and Enlightenment men most almost all men who were I think deeply skeptical it's fair to say of that kind of magical thinking I mean many of them even seem to question the existence of a of a Christian God though not publicly uh so I'm wondering given all these fantasists that we had that that started the country how did these folks end up in charge well it was 200 years later uh you know we you know the the pilgrims got here in 1620 uh we Jefferson and Adams and Franklin and the rest uh were were creating uh United States of America 150 180 years later so there was time for for evolution and and we were then we weren't just a few hundred or a few thousand people we were more than a million a couple of million people uh so there's that and the enlightenment had started and as and and literally I mean the the those those Founders the founders of the United States were correspondents of and friends with the great uh enlightenment philosophers of France and and England at the time so yes they were very much rational people and and that's that's the way what we then called the Civilized world was going and and so those people were the wise men and the and and the grown-ups who who ran the show as because that's the way the world worked and indeed that's the way the United States worked beginning then and for most of the next few centuries is yes there were all always these these various fringy flaky uh uh exciting um outcroppings of belief in anything and everything but the the the rationalists the the people of the Enlightenment the the reasonable adults uh were still in charge until until they weren't and in the book you call it a dynamic equilibrium between fantasist and realist uh Mania and moderation credulity and skepticism and you make an argument that that actually is a big reason why the United States was and has been so successful as a country and H how is that I mean what what did you see as the sort of the power of that combination well I I think that just in in in economic terms for instance the the great all the great uh technological and economic achievements uh uh that happen in the United States whether it's you know from from Thomas Edison to to Hollywood to Steve Jobs uh are in some great measure a result of that uh Visionary dream of of uh of what really amounts to miraculous change or invention or or or cultural transition so that's that's what I mean I mean that that and indeed just the very idea back in 1789 and 1791 of creating from scratch a a constitutional republic that hadn't been done so that was an extraordinary remarkable impossible idea that that we managed our forefathers and mothers managed to do so so that that that combination of yeah we can do this thing that sounds crazy with uh reality checks and pragmatism that combination um in all kinds of ways as I say technologically economically culturally uh has been has been uh really key to to the to American success and and and and and what I'm what I'm arguing is that when when one half of that combination uh began getting out of control in the last half century that's when we we we started getting into real problems when it wasn't in Balance anymore right and throughout the book you mentioned a number of inflection points where this balance began to be threatened and fail and the 1960s really comes out as one of the most important and so what was it in your view in particular about the 1960s that sort of yanked us into out of this equilibrium and into Fantasy Land well it was several things that happened simultaneously I I hesitate to use the cliche Perfect Storm but it really was that um uh and and I uh divided into several different categories of of of of sort of Paradigm shifts that happened then one thing was the what we all think of as the 60s which is to say the counterculture and the hippies and um do your own thing and and you find your truth and I'll have my truth that whole kind of uh belief in in in in actual magic in in in Virtual magic in in in reality is whatever you make it that was part of of of what happened that was being that was both uh contributing to and and uh uh sort of uh jibing with what was happening on on campus and and in Academia uh in in certainly all of the uh in all of the social sciences uh and not not so much the hard Sciences which is to say a kind of relativism there there uh and and a and a and a decision that Western science had no special privilege to or or access to the truth uh uh so so and and a kind of postmodern relativism that that began and and became a permanent fixture on in the academy that was another part of it then what happened in in um uh American Christianity and specifically American protestantism in the 60s um in its own way had its own 60s shift and transition from something that was moving in the same direction as Christendom in the rest of uh the world toward a more metaphorical allegorical reasonable um uh version of Faith to uh back to a uh what I regard as a as a as a primitive uh and in many cases truly delusional idea of supernaturalism uh that and that was that was a that was a change that happened in the 60s um also part of my case about of how this came about is is uh about um what happened with in America especially with with our knack for and love of entertainment of all kinds and how we turned everything into entertainment and how that helped blur the lines in so many different ways between fiction and reality that also had its sort of big bang moment um uh in the 1960s uh and and with politics as well I mean what from from the the extremes of the new Left who were planting bombs everywhere uh in 1969 and 70 in the early '70s to the John bir society which had its meteoric rise and and fall uh in the 1960s as well so all in so in all of these different ways uh um whether it was a kind of default to con to untrue conspiracy theories or or a more General I'll believe whatever I want I I I I I don't believe what anything that the establishment tells me that really uh uh you know did again wasn't all bad as it was happening but has become really problematic as it as it as all of those ways of of thinking and of of being antagonistic toward anything the mainstream says um became part of the way way way too many Americans uh think about the way the world works and as you point out in the book and I think this is important to emphasize that even though conservatives for the most part look at the 60s and say well that's when everything started to go to hell your point is that this actually is driven the radical right just as much as the radical left these things that happened in the 60s exactly right and and and in fact and and the radical right or what you call right or certainly the deranged right or the the untethered right uh is much much more powerful today and and uh uh uh and and has you know serious influence if not control of the uh uh of of the federal government right now um as compared to the the the Looney left um which is still pretty marginal um so yeah that it's a great great irony that that the60s which which starting in the 60s became this demonized uh phenomenon of of everything's loosening up and moral relativism and all the rest on the right uh has in fact empowered uh in in political senses uh and and as well as as well as um uh religious ones um the right I'm sure at this point that uh many our conservative listeners are are listening to this and thinking gez Mike you you brought on another Coastal Elite you know he's saying reality has a left-wing bias uh conservatives are way more susceptible to Fantasy Land than than liberals and that sort of thing and so I I want to ask you first off do you think this is more common on the right on than on the left in general and if so why do you think that is uh well that's a good question I mean it it I mean more common I don't know I I think it has become so I think it has become more Central uh to the to the uh politics and culture on the right than the left it didn't used to be I grew up in a family of what were then considered conservative Republicans Goldwater Republicans but they were also uh not especially religious Republicans they were also pro- conservation pro- environmental pro-choice Republicans and and and that wasn't so strange so something did happen on the right and to the right over the last especially the last 30 years in terms of their predisposition to believe in in untrue conspiracies uh for instance um uh again there are plenty of of of uh people who believe lud Ping's on the left and I talk about them at length in fanty land whether it's uh you know people who don't vaccinate their children or people who believe that 911 was an inside job and I could go on but yeah it is it has become um more uh dominant and consequential on the right there are lots of reasons I think one of them is that because of the the McCarthy right the John Berke Society right that that got going in the 1950s and and continued uh while it was it was marginalized on the right by William up Buckley and Barry Goldwater and and the and the EST M conservatives through the 60s and then through the 70s and by by even by the Reagan Administration uh through the 80s until it wasn't until starting in the 90s and and then in this Century um uh what what had been Fringe uh uh farri characters and ideas that had been kept out of the mainstream of the Republican party uh were were allowed in and and so belief in in secret un plans to invest America and take over and and and and those kinds of of uh hysterical scenarios began getting Credence and and and then of course once you had uh uh unregulated talk radio and and uh highly political and partisan cable news uh uh beaming such ideas uh many of them fanciful and fictitious uh 24 hours a day uh uh that that ended up again for a variety of reasons having more influence on the right than the left I I I I I don't want to and I and I don't believe that there is something about conservatism as I've known it as it used to be uh that is that is has more pins more toward the the Fantastical than the left I I I really don't I think the particular ways in which it that it's had this long history to simmer from the far from from its far right Roots uh uh in the 50s and 60s is one reason I think I I'm afraid I think that the the the the the religious extremists um who have become so important as part of the Republican Coalition have something to do with with uh what has happened on the right in this case as well um there there there are a bunch of reasons and and it's it we should we can return to this in 10 years and and and find out if if the left the Looney left has become as uh as consequential and Powerful as the Looney W has over the last 20 years it could happen I I so I don't I I I am I do not believe that there's something uh beautiful and pure and reasonable and rational about uh the left that prevents it you know I think a lot of people think about at least on the left think about that connection between religion and the Republican party I believe at one point in the book you you make the OB observation that the Republican party has sort of in a way become the party of uh White evangelicals that that's an important distinction I think to make uh and you point out that in I believe it was in 2008 three quarters of the Republican presidential primary candidat said they believed in evolution then we moved to 2012 it's only a third and in 2016 only one out of that huge field uh Jeb Bush said that he believed in evolution but even he said well it doesn't need to be taught in the schools and it should be taught along with creation science essentially so I mean it a lot of people would say well the problem with the modern Republican party is that it's been captured by uh a specific religious element that has distorted it from what it used to be in the 1970s and 1980s and so forth uh well there you go exactly right and and and and that and that uh uh little history of tracking who is willing to acknowledge a belief in uh biology and science is is a is a very Illuminating uh glimpse of how quickly that happened of how that that decade of in this in this Century uh how quickly that happened um yeah uh and and um never before have we had a political party I mean religion has played a part in politics before and Abraham Lincoln the original Republican was accused of being a atheist and a faithless uh heretic and many other things uh so it has played a part before but never before has one of our major parties been so aggressively and specifically and centrally a religious party as the Republican party has becoming this I like to talk with you a little bit about the role of media in all this you've been involved in media for for a long time I I'm old enough to remember A World Before You know the internet social media all that stuff and it seems to me that one big thing that one big difference is the decline of the media's gatekeeper role and and I guess there are positiv in negatives I mean nowadays someone can create something like this podcast or or you know or you know if they want to try to do a modern-day spy magazine good luck to them they can do that but on the other hand we have these information bubbles we have all this polarization we have all these outlets for people to put out and encourage others to have these crazy ideas and now obviously it's impossible to go back but as someone who who like me has experienced both of these worlds do you think that these changes in the media have on balance been a positive thing I I it's too early for me to make that judgment to tell you the truth I I I I mean and and you know uh radically transformative uh uh things like the internet in the past have had their good sides and their bad sides people were saying the same thing about printing you know uh uh four 500 years ago uh oh my God look at this it's it's it's democratized uh uh discourse too much and I I don't know yet I I'm that it's one of the big worries and we'll see I mean we have always you know for 100 years we we've had we've had a very very we used to have a more partisan media than we had in in most of our lifetime back in the 18th and 19th centuries then it became less so uh but my the the big question is and and I and I think again 20 years into the internet era it's too early to say to answer is it net net positive or net negative uh I don't know yet because we we're still learning how to drive this strange new flying car that the internet is in terms of media and will and can people Americans learn uh to distinguish the true from the false and and do they have the will to distinguish the true from the false when we have this this 247 million Channel um internet Digital Universe of of information and pseudo information feeding coming at them from all sides I I worry that it's that it's different that it's that I mean that it that it is different this time that we that unlike adapting to print adapting to newspapers adapting to magazines and radio and television all these these relatively incremental changes in how we consume media that that that uh you know we we may not be able to as a as a republic as a as a place of Civic discourse uh adapt so well to to um this new infrastructure that enables so much nonsense along with all of the Miracles and wonders and uh you know libraries of the world at our fingertips that it also enables it as as I say uh and as I ultimately in the near the end of the book quote Charles Dickens at length it is it is the best of times and it's the worst of times and I and I worry that this time that that the worst of times this time will be will be so much worse than it has been in terms of how how uh the the the the the media channels are are permitting and promoting falsehood um uh I you notice I I hesitate to use the phrase fake news because that's been so degraded but but perpetuating and and and these sort of propagate falsehoods I I I I I maybe we can dial it back and maybe we'll we'll learn how to manage uh this better and maybe we'll learn new Protocols of of of media hygiene but I I can't say that with certainty right now yeah I I think about the uh huxley's book Brave New World and it just seems more and more prophetic to me I think as I as I think about what we're going through right now absolutely no it's so true and and again what she wrote 80 years ago I mean the the so much of of the the the and and there's 1984 from 70 years ago um so much of of of the fiction of the mid uh 20th century is is looking uh uncomfortably accurate right now some people might hear all this and wonder if it's strictly an American thing or if we're further along what do you think about this are we are we still leading the way or is fantasy land becoming an essential component of all rich industrialized countries well that's a good question we are uh I would say unfortunately in this instance leading the way uh I mean none of the things almost none of the things I talk about are absolutely unique to uh America but I think I make the case I certainly made it to myself uh with enough uh conviction to to to to to make to write the book that that all of these these aspects of America the these these uh this will and and weakness for blurring the real and the fictional uh are are defining of America and are are more true here than anywhere else in the developed World always have been and today still are more more than anywhere else so um we'll we'll wait and see I mean I and and as since the book has come out I've I've talked to people all over the world who say oh Wella look at this what's happening in Australia oh no look at these Nutters here in in the UK so as I say in the book no of course it's not it's not unique to America but I I it is I I I'm also getting and one of the reasons that people have been interested in publishing this book in you know China and Japan and Germany and elsewhere is wow we wondered uh wh why America is so different than the rest of us and this this is giving me some insight into that so um we'll see I mean um uh if if uh we we if if the United States is the canary in this particular coal mine and uh you know the rest of the the rest of the developed World follows us uh I I I I guess I I my my if if I had to bet on what is going to happen I I I I think we're going to probably continue to be kind of an outlier and and be more peculiar in this way than most of the rest of the of the developed World mention in the book or you argue in the book that this isn't just something that happens but it it's a essentially enabled by well three groups that you identify Believers cynics and squishes can you talk a little bit about these groups yeah I I I have I talk about the The Establishment in all of our worlds of the academic Worlds the business world the political world the religious world where where there there were establishments there are establishments who who for for centuries really were The Gatekeepers and kept out what were considered the the the the loonies or the or the wrong-headed misguided people from having too much attention or uh or power in their various worlds a a and to a to a fault and and part of what happened in the 1960s was oh let's let's you know not let's let's not have the the bigotry and the sexism and the elitism that had become too extreme here or there govern how those establishments work and and and and let's lower those Gates let's make those Gates easier to open for different kinds of people and different kinds of voices great um but uh again as as so often happens it it went in my belief too far and and yes I call the the the members of these various establishments I mean there are the the the the Squishies who just oh I I don't want to have a fight sure sure you're you're yelling louder than me you have more passionate belief in whatever nutty thing you believe fine fine I'll give you this professorship or you can have this show or whatever so there's that uh there's um the the cynics who are just wait I I can sell books that I don't believe but people will buy I can put on cable shows about angels and monsters that I don't believe but I'll pretend their documentaries and put them on fine so there there's that aspect um and then there are the true believers as well who more and more over the last few decades have have have become part of these various establishments so and and so those are the three basic categories of people in these establishments that that have uh essentially been uh in one case in the case of the Believers um pushing their various versions of falsehood and fantasy onto their public and the public in the other two cases have been complicit in in in sort of allowing various kinds of nonsense and hogwash and untruth to enter the mainstream as it never had before and these cynics in particular have created this thing that you call the fantasy industrial complex which is a a pretty important part of the story which has really done a lot to push this sort of thing correct yeah and and by fantasy industrial complex I I talk I mean it it's the way in which uh what we know as show bus business Hollywood and and television and movies and video gaming and the rest uh H it includes that but it also H has always included the the ways in which for instance much of American religion is is a form of entertainment and not just beginning with the televangelists of of the 20th century but back in the day when the one of the great distinguishing characters of American religion were were these itinerant uh evangelists who would gather crowds of thousands and become superstars of the 1700s and 1800s uh and then everything becoming a form of entertainment in America as it does nowhere else whether it's how you sell cars whether it's versions of Disneyland turning our downtowns into Disneylands uh and and and theming every restaurant so you're not no longer just going to uh uh this restaurant or that restaurant you're going to Olive Garden or you're going to to to you're pretending you're in in Hawaii when you go to this restaurant at at the mall um the the way in which all things and everything becomes a a a form of entertainment yes and that is driven by the the the Great American will to make as much money as you can and uh uh is just one more way and not terrible in every instance and not so consequential in every instance but taken as a whole the fantasy industrial complex as I call it uh tends to to to blur and elide the the distinctions that used to be pretty clear and bright and hard between what is real and what is uh what is fictional um so yeah and here we are and here we are with by the way a a president and maybe you're going to get to uh our president uh who who who embodies uh the V industrial complex at a certain cheesy low level uh to a te well yeah and that that's what I wanted to actually ask you about that certainly Donald Trump people have suggested that he is uh a caricature of a of a rich person if you will kind of an over-the-top sort of persona I think in the book I get a sense that you feel there's a direct line from PT Barnum to Donald Trump and I was wondering what in particular do you think that he really tapped into in in the American psyche here at least that you know enough of enough Americans that accounts for for his being the the leader of the Free World as we say well his his uh I I quote his sister from uh one of the biographies of uh Trump saying he he is PT barnham and and what PT barnham understood in in a very different way 170 years ago is is that uh as he said uh many times Americans love a humbug by which he meant he could he could put on display a fake mermaid uh body and say no no this is really a mermaid alongside actual artifacts in his Museum or in his shows and and people didn't care they wanted to believe the untrue because it was exciting and interesting well that is that is a very and he and he made his career and name and celebrity and Fortune based on that idea that uh you know if if if it's entertaining enough people will believe it's true well that went out of fashion and certainly never totally came into the mainstream in in in American politics Donald Trump as a Young Man uh again very clearly in his way understood as a as a teenager as he was about to go into his father's real estate business that uh real estate and show business could be merged in a way that they hadn't been that it was all about the sizzle and the and and and uh Hyperbole and and and untruth if if it could be made exciting enough people will believe well that that has that's that's how he did what he did as a as a business person then as you say not only became like a caricature of a certain kind of rich person but but then gave up being a regular business person to the degree real estate development is a regular business and and became and and literally just played a businessman on TV for 15 years before running for president um so yeah he is he is the ultimate PT baram he's also a contemporary and friend of PG baram I write about in the book back in the 1800s uh and lived into the 1900s um is Buffalo Bill Cody who who again was a real uh American hero Soldier Scout Indian fighter then started playing himself on stage and in novels as he was still being the real thing and then spent the next 40 Years of his life just playing uh that in in shows that he put on around the world so he was much a a uh precursor of Donald Trump as well now fast forward 100 years nobody had thought of of of of uh turning American presidential politics and the presidency into such a show as as Donald Trump realized it could be there had been again he wasn't the first however that we again since television since John F Kennedy first TV President Ronald Reagan great television theatrical uh Showman as well and so forth the presidency in American politics had been turning into a a had be had had be been becoming a subset of the fantasy industrial complex and and Donald Trump instead of taking the next incremental step uh went several steps Beyond and and transformed it into into what it always sort of was on the verge of becoming but but but moved ahead about 10 steps all at once to turn it into this uh uh surreal uh fantasy show that is on uh every uh Twitter feed and cable channel and every media uh Outlet there is uh 24 hours a day and and here we are some conservatives I know especially Trump supporters will in response to the very well documented fact that Donald Trump lies just outright lies more than any other modern president but they'll say okay sure Donald Trump lies but well you need to take him seriously but not literally and oh by the way Obama lied too if you like your doctor you can keep your doctor and those lies are much more important so this is just the the mainstream media trying to take down somebody because they find him to be vulgar and not like them what do you think about that well we could we could spend the next hours documenting the the the number and consequence of not just the lies that Donald Trump tells versus Barack Obama or George Bush or Ronald Reagan I mean it's not it's not Republican versus Democrat as far as I'm concerned I I'd be happy to have uh any number of the people who were running against Donald Trump for the Republican nomination be president I I wouldn't I would be as indifferent to their presidency as I was have been to most presidents so it's not about policy uh uh it's about and it's not just about lying yeah sure politicians by their nature lie none of them have ever lied as much as this one as has been fully documented um um by various catalogers of of of Donald Trump's uh lies and falsehoods but it's it's it's his he doesn't care about the truth or falsehood of things and sometimes he believes things that are so preposterously untrue and keeps believing whether it's about Obama wiretapping him in Trump Tower or 5 million illegal voters is he lying about those things well they're untrue and but but he believes them or he doesn't care if they're true or not that's the difference and that's that's why I am so heartened when I meet conservatives and Republicans and people of the right with whom I disagree about many things uh who understand that that's the difference about this guy and what he embodies and that if we start adopting the the the Donald Trump standard and it doesn't ma that that it doesn't matter what's true or false uh everybody lies and nothing is any trer than anything else that's the kind that is then we're lost uh then we if we when we start not having a shared basis of facts in this country and that then we can disagree that we should uh once we if we have a shared basis of facts as we did for centuries and say okay we all agree on the facts you think we should respond this way I think I we should respond this way let's argue about it and figure out the way to go whether it's about climate change or how we should organize our health system or what wars we should or shouldn't fight anything as long as we agree on the facts then we can argue and that's what politics are and that's what Civic life is uh but if we get into a place where uh uh I I can say anything I want and if I have the power to enforce my fictions that's all that matters then we we're lost and and uh so I I just would encourage my as I do encourage my friends on the right uh to to to understand that it's this is different and and and we're not arguing about whether the right should be V more Victorious or the left should be more Victorious we're arguing about something more fundamental and that if if we lose the ability to distinguish between basic reality and fiction uh it will come back and bite you and destroy you you currently uh uh powerful uh Republicans uh and and it will and and because because as I say I mean you know uh the people on the left aren't so pure and and and reasonable or or and uncynical that when they get power and they will again uh they won't say no we're we're we're going to do to you what you've done to us for these last number of years so it's it's just uh I I I I understand that that power is tempting and and and well yeah he lies all the time and and he doesn't have any regard for the truth but we got we got our Supreme Court Justice and we'll get this tax cut well I I understand the temptation of that but but I think I do think Beyond morality and there's there's that I think the price of of of of of abandoning a a as I say a shared set of basic facts of the matter and and and and commitment to a rough version of reality that we can all share once we've lost that we're we're we're goners then at the end of the book though you you say essentially that you're still optimistic and I gotta say I don't really understand why I mean it seems to me like technology is pushing us further and further into this and then I think about the developments of things like virtual reality and augmented reality and it just seems to me like we're losing this battle I don't see I I don't see light at the end of this tunnel I I'm hoping that we can end our conversation with you giving me some reason to be optimistic can you do that for me uh well uh some days some days I can and some days I can't the other day a couple days ago I saw um a demonstration of this uh of of the new technology that enables completely synthesized uh audio and video that makes it look as though you are saying things you never said uh that makes me feel like oh we're lost we're done that that that that's that's that's going to be the end of us so but but but then some days uh uh I feel somewhat more hopeful now I don't think that whether the Donald Trump remains president uh or not I mean I I don't want him to and I think he's a dangerous person again Beyond any any policies he's enacted we can argue about those but but this this this disregard for reality and the truth is is my problem with him uh it won't solve the problem once he's gone uh all these forces and and inclinations and and playing fast and loose with facts uh that have led up to it that I talked about in fantasy land will still be there maybe uh depending on how this ends how the Trump Administration ends and and uh it will be a it will be a learning moment it will be a chastening experience that's possible that's that's part of my hope when I get hopeful I think like okay enough people will say oo that was that was that was rough how can we avoid that let's let's return to some version of of how life was uh you know let's say in the in the 90s before the T um uh and that could happen um and and when I see you know in terms I mean the survey search which I use uh pretty extensively in the book shows me that solid large majorities of Americans just in in terms of policy and politics beyond the more subtle and cultural uh uh versions of fantasy land still believe still say no no no we we need to we need to these are the facts are these and we need to share those and we shouldn't deny those those give me some hope um um but uh it's it's it's a it's touch and go and and it's day by day I mean I I am I am marginally more optimistic some days than others and uh uh as I say it depends on the day you catch me also I mean optimism is as much as anything I mean I I I WR this whole book about how we have to depend on facts and logic and reason and rationality it's a matter of temperament and and and and one is either tends toward the optimistic or tends toward the pessimistic and and it's true of Americans too I think I mean part of the as I say when I when I try to summon up my optimism at the end of the book is I'm an American Americans have tended to be optimistic and again it's it's what I say throughout it's it's sometimes crazily over optimistic so so we'll see I I uh I I I I have always been an optimist I've never been a declinist and oh it's all over and and and I I've always found that uh uh I I just I I haven't found sympathy with that point of view I have more sympathy with that point of view today and I don't think it's just a fact of being in my uh early 60s and being an old fogy who thinks the world is coming going to hell I don't think it's it maybe partly that but I I I think it's it's I think it's what's happened in the last couple of decades especially that led me to write this book that leads me closer to to to to irredeemable pessimism than I've ever been even though I try hard uh to to uh eek out some optimism in you know by writing this book hoping that I can I can Rouse the the reality-based community to to hold the line as much as we can well on that at least somewhat optimistic note uh we will close Kurt Anderson thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me today oh Michael my it was my pleasure you're your this was a great conversation that's it for this episode thanks for listening support from listeners 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