Is Wink Martindale TOO Aggressive? Breaking Down Michigan's Defense, More With PFF's Steve Palazzolo

Intro welcome on into the wolverine.com podcast Clayton safy here with Anthony broom on Thursday June 20th uh we caught up with Steve palazolo of Pro Football Focus we're going to bring you that interview here in just a second talking wink Martell breaking down the X's and O's the scheme that he's going to bring to the University of Michigan after his 20 years of NFL experience we'll talk JJ McCarthy how he could impact as a rookie Michigan's 2025 draft prospects how Jim Harbaugh is going to do with the Chargers and more with Steve so uh um check that out here in just a second but before we get into it we want to remind people to give us a like if you're watching on YouTube subscribe to our Channel as well as we get close to 30,000 subscribers and head to the wolverine.com as always we got a special deal right now for the podcast listeners and viewers the promo code1 gets you two months of Premium access for just $1 great time to get in you got official visits right now Michigan couple days ago lands top 100 quarterback Brady Hart in the 2026 class got all sorts of coverage and Analysis on that news and notes on who might be next uh to join Michigan football in the recruiting world uh also Football news basketball Scoops and more as always at the wolverine.com and we're presented today Anthony by ourselves over at the Wolverine magazine our 100 60 page 2024 Michigan football preview magazine is coming soon ships in July so you can head to the Wolverine ondemand.com to order your copy right now um and look wink Martell was interviewed in it kurk Campbell exclusive interview with him as well but so much more analysis on each and every position columns exclusive interviews including with the two coordinators and key players uh opponent breakdowns Big 10 preview predictions all sorts of stuff uh so go to the Wolverine ondemand.com to get your copy uh AB how we doing today uh I thought we recorded Steve already and I thought it was really strong so it's going to be uh hopefully fun to for the you know viewers and listeners to get that Insight yeah it's we're kind of in the time machine right now right we're we're introducing something that you haven't heard yet that we know all about so little inside baseball there but yeah you know the Genesis of I think reaching out to Steve was there's this ju to position right where a couple couple years ago Baltimore Ravens want something a little different on defense they move on from wink Mart Dale U hire Mike McDonald and then Mike McDonald is replaced by Jesse Min and then that Dynamic is kind of flipped now where Michigan needs to replace Minter but by extension McDonald in terms of the defense that they ran and you're going to the self-proclaimed you know OG of the defense so I wanted to talk to someone knowledgeable not that we're not knowledgeable but it's always good to have an out outside perspective on what the wink Martin uh wink marale experience could look like certainly to me uh it sounds like Michigan has um you know not a spoiler alert but it sounds like they checked the boxes that Steve listed for what a successful wink marale defense looks like so you know it'll be interesting and a lot of good stuff on you know the Synergy now between college and the NFL there's a lot more crossover than there even was maybe five years ago so yeah great conversation uh oh love talking ball uh you know in mid June here as we you know get ourselves fired up for the season not you know to quote Chris Ballas not wishing our summers Away by any means but to get a little insight talk a little football this time of year is always exciting so uh shout out to Steve shout out to PFF shout out to Dave sarro uh for hooking us up with the interview um it was a great chat so hopefully you guys stick around and listen to it all right we now welcome on a special guest Steve pelazo of PFF he's the head of football product Wink Martindale's fit in college football at PFF as well as the co-host of the PFF NFL podcast we were just talking before we hit record here uh we had his co-host on Sam mson a few months ago to get some stuff uh ahead of the draft and now Michigan players have their homes in the draft Jim Harbaugh is uh you know coming out of mini camp going into training camp in a bunch of Michigan uh Personnel over there with the Chargers and wink Martell settling in at the University of in Michigan so we wanted to get some insight on all of that so uh Steve great to have you on yeah thanks for having me appreciate it so I want to start or you know we want to start with wink Martell here um what was your reaction uh back in the winter when it came out that he's going back to college somewhere where he hadn't coached in in 20 years after 20 years in the NFL seven years as an NFL defensive coordinator at different points in his career uh what was your reaction to that and how do you think he fits in college as 60-year-old going back to school well I mean the first thing was was schematically thinking about how wik Martell attacks offenses he attacks aggressively he attacks that's what he does every defensive coordinator in their opening press conference says we're goingon to attack we're gonna be aggressive but wink actually backs all that up right he blitzes like crazy um so that was the first thing and you know the the college game is different with the spacing and the wide hash marks so that's where I'm most interested to see how aggressive he will be from a blitz perspective um because that's what that was what he was known for at the NFL level I think you know sending five sending six putting a lot of pressure on cornerbacks in man coverage putting a lot of pressure basically on his entire back seven to be able to cover a lot of space but trying to put that heat on the quarterback make quick decisions and force them into some bad decisions along the way so my first reaction was hey I can't wait to see what this looks like at the college level um because we've seen wink Martell have a lot of success with the Baltimore Ravens with the New York Giants um sometimes things didn't go so well when he didn't maybe have the corners to hold up but you know that's the first thing then the whole aspect of recruiting and you know relating to the players I don't think about that a whole lot but more like schematically interested in seeing how that all plays out yeah and a lot of times when you know especially Michigan's coming from Mike McDonald and Jesse Minter we'll talk about them in a second given that their defenses are kind of all the rage at at this level now but I think a lot of Michigan fans see a guy like Ln marale come in and say oh well he's you know an old school guy and he's gonna What a Wink Martindale defense looks like he's going to Blitz a ton it's going to be man coverage and those were kind of some of the things that um maybe prevented them as a program from taking that next step a few years ago under a different defensive coordinator and Don brown but um you know from your perspective I mean when he has the talent to execute the system that he wants to run what does a wink marale defense look like when it's firing in all cylinders so it's interesting because I think at its best clearly it's going to get pressure right because you're you're you're sending five and six at an at an extraordinary rate right there were games where the Giants would Blitz 50 60% of the time and just wouldn't stop and it it was different disguises but it was mostly five and six man pressures and so at its best not only are you getting heat on the quarterback you're creating a little bit of confusion little bit of uh indecision but then you have corners on the back end that are making uh making like life difficult you know like when you go back to last year the Giants didn't really have the corners to hold up so they were getting torched by teams like the 49ers who have these incredible receivers but when you have corners that could play on an island linebackers who were smart because a lot of it is communication a lot of it is being able to handle um you know pass offs and and just making sure that everybody's covered it's not just always pure man so when you have all that those pieces in place if you take away the quarterback's first or second read there's not much time to do anything else so at its best it is causing that confusion and I would say it it's also just increasing variance you know so when you think about the 2022 Giants that was the team that made it to the playoffs and a lot of the underlying metrics for the Giants weren't necessarily all that great it it's not like they had a star studded defense the offense was pretty good but again not really star studded but they found ways to win and there were these individual games you know they made a goal line stop against the Tennessee Titans they made uh a fourth quarter stop against Aaron roders and the Packers and it was just a it was a fourth down deflection from an unblocked Blitz Blitzer that ended the game and it's one of those if you make the if you bat it down the game's over if you don't maybe you lose right it is that high variance type of Defense but again if you're coming from a position of strength recruiting well and you've got good corners and you have good players up front then you have a lot of success the other the other thing that stands out to me was Dexter Lawrence and his success in the Giants defense as a monster nose tackle pushing the pocket having fewer double team teams to deal with I think about Kenneth Grant and Mason Graham and what they might be able to do of course Grant's more of the pure nose tackle type but their ability to just be one-on-one rushing from the interior because of all the chaos that's happening behind them I think um you know that it it bodes well for what Michigan can do from a defensive line perspective yeah no that is that that is an interesting part of it and and also wink talked recently about how when he went back and watched Michigan season Simulated pressures, disguises, amoeba defense last year in what Jesse Minter called there's a lot of simulator pressures um you they didn't necessarily have to bring a bunch of other guys and they had probably the best defensive line in the country and you me mentioned a couple guys that are back this year that will make it near the top of the country again but they created Havoc even without bringing extra guys um I guess take us through maybe what stands out about this raven style defense where it's kind of an amoeba defense they're disguising things they're bringing guys you don't know who's coming who's not even if it's just four guys rushing if you don't know which four it is you know that can create some Havoc for the o line and the quarterback yeah I think that that pretty much sums it up I mean if you just look at Blitz rates right if you were just looking in a vacuum you would say oh it's not an extremely aggressive defense but it is that confusion that it creates um I would say it also they're also going to lean a little bit more on two high Concepts you know keeping the safeties back avoiding big plays and have a more of a blitz package where you're going to play quarters behind it or cover two behind it where most Blitz stri structures are single high right you're going to have that single High free safety and pretty much everyone else is either on an island or or zoning it out in uh uh Zone Blitz you know traditional Zone Blitz type of look a three under three deep type of look so I think I think what Minter and McDonald and that whole scheme what they have done is is as you mentioned I think creat some indecision uh we saw how much they they destroyed Alabama's pass protection and all their rules uh in the Rose Bowl so they create indecision without sacrificing too much on the back end from a coverage perspective and then if you read what Ted win wrote this summer uh on the athletic just talking about the stuff that you don't necessarily see which is the Simplicity and the ability to be multiple without being confusing right because we all we always see the play call right we watch the game we see the play call but the stuff that goes on behind the scenes U the ability to adjust play calls the ability to adjust to an offense on the Fly the ability to send one person and drop another person into coverage and basically take the same call and and make one little tweak to it those are different and rare and more of a Mike McDonald Jesse Minter that scheme uh unique to that scheme we'll say um so those are the types of things that they've done a really good job of it's different from I think when Seattle's defense you know took the league by storm and you said they're going to play this one thing cover three and you need this type of corner on the left side and this type of corner on the right and this type of hammer strong safety and this type of Earl Thomas free safety I think it's less formulaic as far as the Personnel goes but it's actually just more flexible and you know the overriding you know Trend there is the ability to uh make life difficult on the pass protection while also keeping enough players back in coverage that you're not going to get burnt by the blitz you know there's an interesting ju to position here with you know obviously Why the Ravens system is all the rage in the NFL uh the way the way things ended with wink marale and Baltimore and then you go to Mike McDonald and um you know Michigan replaces Mike McDonald with Jesse Miner to kind of run that same system and now it's kind of flipped where both those guys are now in the NFL wink marale is back in college so I think the question I would have and not necessarily is it better or worse but you know how is what wink likes to do defensively different than what Mike McDonald and Jesse Miner like to run and you know why why are their systems right now kind of the new hotness in the NFL I I think it's because if if you were oversimplifying defense Through The Years you would say are you a blitz heavy defense or are you a rush with four type of Defense right we used to oversimplify that and say um you're going to get pressure with the front four the old school you know Tampa 2 in the you know Tampa Bay Bucks era where it was like hey it's Warren Sap and Simeon rice and we're just goingon to rush with four or say the Giants on their Super Bowl runs against the Patriots hey they were able to get pressure with four so some schemes simply wanted to do that and then other schemes said no we don't maybe have the horses we're going to Blitz we're going to you know get a little crazy and send five or six far more often than everyone else because we have to get pressure I think the the hybrid of that is what we've seen with Minter and McDonald's the hybrid of that is more often than not they're going to rush four but you still might get the benefit of the indecision that you create from the from the blitz scheme or from crowding the line of scrimmage or or the indecision of not knowing where the rush is coming from so there's almost like these old school 34 type of principles the old school Steelers 34 where they had three down linemen those two outside backers they could you know Rush one drop the other and it created those were pure pass rushers but it created just enough indecision on the on the offense that's when the Zone Blitz you know came into Vogue in the in the 90s created a little bit of indecision and basically uh caused issues with how offenses solve you know facing five and six-man pressures so I think that's why it's become in Vogue right it's it's it's not choosing one or the other are you going to be Blitz happy are you going to be are you going to trust your front four you could almost do both and and kind of play in The Best of Both Worlds and I think that's the hybrid that um that new scheme has really has created for the Ravens for Michigan and now you know all across the NFL really more of a an open-ended or or Overlap between college and NFL games? bigger picture question offense defense special teams but also in the context of Michigan bringing back an NFL defensive coordinator but also having you know coaches in the past that have been in the NFL like Jim Harbaugh is there more overlap right now between the college game and the NFL game than ever or how do you kind of see that I know it's a it evolves and there are es and flows to it as the years go on no I I think there is I think there's way more stealing from college so to speak at the NFL level I mean that was that was the only holdup right College was always always had to be more Innovative because you've got 130 plus teams versus 32 in the NFL um the NFL is really homogenized right it's really similar across the board and if you were um if you were putting a score on schemes say uh offensive or defenses and saying you know the higher the number the the the more unique you know the more different it is you'd only have two or three outliers right you'd have a team like the Ravens that's crazy run heavy or a team like the Titans that was crazy run heavy or or like wink who's Crazy Blitz heavy right so you'd only have a few outliers and everyone else would be really clustered whereas college is just really wide but I do think in recent years because practice time or less practice time at the NFL level and maybe the urgency to win right away more than ever and not being able to develop players I think the NFL has to adjust to college they have to adjust to what quarterbacks do well they have to steal play calls I mean I was just talking to an offensive coordinator who you know drafted a drafted a quarterback in this draft and I said hey did you were you checking out his scheme in college did you steal anything he said oh yeah we stole at least a concept and maybe more you know coming up this summer because um you always want to play to the strengths of your players and I think the NFL's caught on to that more than ever so um they'll always be differences right it's a different game there's different rules the the hashmark difference makes it it is a it is a massive difference right in um NFL versus college but I do think we're seeing more than ever the NFL taking from college uh yeah more than ever before you know a lot of a lot of times people you know when they do these season previews they look at you know the overarching story lines with the Michigan's 2025 NFL Draft prospects team one of the biggest ones for Michigan this year is all the guys they lost to the NFL draft this past year 13 guys selected it was a program record but you know I I think in terms of maybe what's not being talked about as much is the talent that they have coming back especially on the defensive side of the ball uh I just checked you guys at PFF have I believe it's seven Michigan guys in the the big board you currently have for 2025 two of those guys are in the top four you have three of them in the top 16 um Kenneth Grant is kind of just outside you know the top 32 or so uh at 36 so uh maybe not quite as deep uh of classes that they had last year but certainly looks like a lot more topheavy I guess your early thoughts on the type of talent that uh this 2024 Michigan team could send to the NFL next year yeah I haven't I haven't done a ton of work on the draft yet I've watched a little bit though and um you know I mentioned Mason Graham earlier PFF grades are through the roof for him I think the question for him is going to be measurables and size I don't know if you guys have his arm length handy but they look small and I don't think the NFL is going to love that um Kenneth Grant does look like an absolute monster though who could push the pocket so I love the two defensive tackles there the one interesting thing is you know they they've got some Talent on the edge as well guys like Josiah Stewart the one other thing to mention about Wink's defenses is he's never really had he hasn't really had a whole lot of pure pass rushers over the last few years whether it was Baltimore or the Giants and one thing I'm curious about is if that was is he Blitz as heavily as he is because of the talent or is that just the scheme right I don't need that that guy to win off the edge because there's not a lot of pure fourman rush so you might actually be able to rush four a lot more because of the depth on Michigan's defensive line um will Johnson of course is going to get a ton of publicity I think this year and for the draft so look I think they've got um a lot of good talent coming back I think for me the biggest question mark is all the turnover on the offensive line even if they're highly touted guys you know just having that um just having the turnover having that inexperience compared to what they've had and the you know the mark of last year's Michigan team to me was not necessarily Superstars but the depth um it was very much like the Ravens when you look at the Ravens depth chart it's just uh BL uh blue and green grades for PFF blue and green consistency across the board that was Michigan's defense right the Mike Sandra stills of the world the Chris Jenkins of the world those guys were just really good and there was a lot of good players that got sent to the NFL so to to me it's more about the depth it does seem like there's more star power maybe relative to last year having some of these guys a year older um so it looks like there's plenty of talent left there just a matter of uh will they overcome some of the the depth that got lost to the NFL moving into to some of the Michigan guys that are in the NFL now and and going back to what you were talking about with the overlap with with college in the NFL I guess does that make it easier maybe for a quarterback to transition to the league I know even Tom Brady has talked recently about one of his complaints right now with the league J.J. McCarthy's fit with the Minnesota Vikings is that the quarterbacks maybe don't have everything at their disposal right now pre- snap you know to change things or full field reads that sort of thing but that could maybe benefit a guy to play Early potentially um you know it might be a dumb question I guess but does that help a transition and then separate from that I guess just your overall thoughts on the fit with the Vikings and the fact that they have Sam darnold there looks like he'll start training camp as the starter and uh you know how JJ could maybe imp as a rookie yeah as for the first question I I think the the number of quarterbacks who rely on their legs Now versus you know 20 years ago it does help the transition because you know a guy like Anthony Richardson or um even like Jaylen Herz earlier in his career uh seeing those guys I mean even Josh Allen just kind of scrambling around as he was trying to figure it out I think it just buys you some time with some quote unquote easier plays some designed QB runs which open up the Play action game open up more uh more open throws down the field and so I think that does help the transition while you're learning everything else while you're adding everything else to to the toolbox rather than uh being on the bench right so I think that you know for guys like Jaden Daniels this year that could help you know relying on their legs just as they're learning the entire game as for JJ McCarthy I don't think I'm alone saying that that was the best situation for any rookie quarterback of course having uh a good offensive line having Justin Jefferson having Jordan Addison TJ hackinson to throw to um they Aaron Jones in the backfield so I think the Situation's great the question obviously is going to be hey he was this you know Uber game manager for for Michigan of course there were games he didn't have to throw those were the biggest draft question marks and I think they're valid I mean it's still valid to say are you g to go out there and be the guy that's going to drop Back 40 times to win a game when you need to and so to me those are the questions that need to be answered and does that mesh with what Minnesota has because Kevin okono likes to Chuck the ball around and they have the receivers they have those pass catchers to do it so I think it's going to be about that consistency I loved a lot of what McCarthy did at at a high level right I mean his ability to I thought get through Reeds throw the ball with zip and you know throw the ball into Tight Windows he has a lot of great plays on tape I think for me it's seeing that consistency seeing the touch down the field seeing him just run quick game and just get some of those quote unquote easy uh easy plays under his belt to then be able to create those big plays and then I know he looked very athletic in college and has some really good athletic plays on tape but there were other times I thought McCarthy was a little slow moving around the pocket I know that must sound crazy for Michigan fans but the Indiana game he had a couple of those fumbles you know trying to trying to make things happen he's got to find that balance that you can throw on the Run he is very athletic but there were times when I think he was trying to do too much so trying to find that balance between creating big plays outside of structure and then knowing when to you know live to fight another day so I think those are going to be some important things for for McCarthy as he transitions here no doubt um taking him out of it I guess and there were 13 guys as Anthony said to to Michigan players that will impact as rookies choose from but I guess who who might have uh an impressive rookie season or who do you think has the isn't the best situation outside of JJ if it's you know Mikey Sr still or Junior Coulson or Roman Wilson somebody else in Michigan's draft class yeah Junior coulson's the guy that comes to mind to me for me because I think you know we T keep talking about this scheme and he's going to play in the same system and I thought he was just one of those linebackers who I don't think he was spectacular but was always in the right position I thought he had a great feel for coverage a great feel for Route Concepts and that comes from knowledge of the system and you know being able to carry that over as a as a third round linebacker I think is a huge Advantage I love Sandra still I think he's going to be an excellent player I mean he reminds me a lot of a Mike Hilton or a Kenny Moore you know that doit all slot That's Just Gonna Be an Effective NFL player so I think he'll hit the ground running and I'm a big fan of Chris Jenkins and what he's capable of doing with the Bengals I think they're going to need him to be a playmaker especially in the Run game with DJ reer moving on from the Bengals over to the to the Lions so I think Jenkins has a big opportunity in Cincinnati and I was a Roman Wilson fan as well and if Pittsburgh doesn't make a move at receiver that number two wide receiver spot opposite George Pickins is wide open so uh Roman Wilson he was awesome at the Senior Bowl watching him run routes he had an incredible one-handed catch there um I think he has a chance to make an impact too just because of the opportunity assuming that Pittsburgh doesn't make another move at wide receiver Jim Harbaugh outlook with the Los Angeles Chargers I know you guys have talked about this kind of ad nauseum at this point um but Jim Harbaugh back in the NFL Los Angeles Chargers the second time around uh for him second stint in the league you know do you see I mean is he going to replicate that success at the next level or do you have any concerns about how long he's been out of the league it's been kind of a you know a bit of a curious off season but also a very Harbaugh off season and he's won everywhere he's been so just thoughts on on that transition you make of them heading into this year yeah I think Harbaugh will be good I mean I think if you look at what I just described with Michigan's roster last year and how it was just solid across the board and looked like the Ravens you know the Chargers were kind of the opposite they were you big names star power but but not enough depth they weren't uh probably physical enough in the Run game on either side of the ball the last few years so Harbaugh putting his stamp on the team it's it's difficult whether you're going whether you're a new coach in college or in the NFL it's difficult to put that stamp on year one um you're going to have your style you're probably going to implement it it's tough to get all the right personnel there so there's certainly a transition going on with the Chargers but it looks like the first step was they had to get rid of big names like Keenan Allen like Mike Williams um had to restructure guys like khil Mack but um I think there's still a lot of Talent on that team what I'm really interested in is with Justin Herbert under center it's still a pass first NFL right and Harbaugh was him and Greg Roman were all always one of the most you know run first tandems back when they had the ners and and when they were with the Niners and then Greg Roman you know developing quarterbacks like Colin Kaepernick like Lamar Jackson Who used their legs heavily you know used the designed Run game a lot and Justin Herbert who's very athletic but that's not the way that you want to build your offense most likely so that's one of the biggest storylines for me is how does Greg Roman fit with Justin Herbert clearly they wanted to rebuild this offensive line Go With Joe alal right at the top I don't mind that as a move I love Joe Al as a prospect could easily become a strength for the Chargers but at the bottom line is I think Harbaugh is going to succeed but I'm fascinated to see what it looks like year one as they transition because there it could still be a bumpy road but I think ultimately he'll get there and they'll start challenging the Chiefs year in year out at least for the division title yeah it's going to be fun or or interesting at the very least to to watch uh Steve thank you so much for coming on what can we I mean I go on PFF pretty much every day if if nothing else if I need a snap count but there's much much more than that clearly and and we put our you know subscription a good use there but what can we look for uh from PFF NFL Podcast you from PFF as the summer rolls on because it's it's not just the season or you know draft season or whatever it's 247 365 over there with football yeah pff.com is great especially this time of year as far as fantasy betting you know looking forward to the season and then the PFF NFL podcast that's where you can hear me two to three times a week you know throughout the offseason and into next season so that's where I suggest everybody goes PFF NFL podcast yep check it out uh he's everywhere uh including their pod so check them out uh Steve thanks so much for coming on yeah thanks for having me that was Steve palazolo with PFF thank you so much everybody for joining us here on the Wolverine podcast make sure to like the video if you're watching on YouTube if you want the Wolverines to win another National Championship you will hit that thumbs up it's fine if you don't want that to happen it means you won't hit the thumbs up but if you want it to happen hit the like button subscribe to the channel as well on YouTube We're hit we're nearing Outro hitting 30,000 subscribers and head to the wolverine.com right now special offer promo code1 gets you two months of Premium access for just $1 so you get behind the pay wall there for 50 cents a month for the next two months so promo code is1 there and check out the Wolverine's 160 page 2024 Michigan football preview magazine you can order your issue at the Wolverine ondemand.com those will ship in early July you'll be at the beach you'll be sipping on uh something good uh at the beach reading your Michigan football preview magazine very soon in just a few weeks you'll have your hands on that if you uh if you get an order in right now at the Wolverine ondemand.com so thanks so much for watching and listening and we'll see you next time