Doris Kearns Goodwin, a Pulitzer Prize-Winning Presidential Historian, on Biden’s Historic Decision

I read that you were also saying that when Johnson going into that speech he had this very high disapproval rating and almost overnight it changed and I was watching all of the reaction to the president uh yesterday right on Sunday when he delivered his letter that caught seemed to catch so many people off guard all of a sudden people were a heartbroken they were oh my gosh this is one of the most consequential presidents of our lifetime I'm so sad to see him go but I also understand what do you think it did to the American public about watching this man that Millions had voted for to be reelected that people um who had a you know High disapproval rating but also that people knew and I think expected on Friday he had said I'm GNA stay in this race and I'm going to see you out on the tray and all the feelings I think before the speech were mixed together with wanting him to stay some of the you know fervent supporters but others being upset and even angry and feeling he was being stubborn and preventing a real chance for the Democrats to to even begin to win win the race so once he makes that decision and he then people begin to change their feelings back again and realize that he had done something for the good of the country that might be hurtful to himself it's almost like a little retirement for many people is like a little death right but in this case as as was said of LBJ it seemed political suicide to retire because he'd been in public life his whole life as had president President Biden so I think we're going to be seeing you're already seeing among the people talking on television editorials now the New York Times that had editorial is just weeks ago it was time for him to get out of the race Now talks about it as a principal decision and the stock market went way up when Lyndon Johnson made his decision to withdraw because it made the possibility of Peace we'll see what the stock market does now but it's it's a feeling of empathy that I think a lot of people will feel for the decision that he made what what happened with Johnson because that's the most recent example we have of someone giving it up not of losing because we have President Bush and Carter who weren't reelected to another term but what was their reaction to staying in the office even though in some ways they were lame duck so what what can we expect with Biden staying in well you know the interesting thing about LBJ was the reason he said he was withdrawing from the race was that he wanted to concentrate on bringing peace to Vietnam and for a moment it seemed like that might be actually happening he withdraws on March 31st and then on April 3rd North Vietnam sends a message that they'll come to the peace table he said it was probably the happiest day of his presidency he fills a plane with all the White House people and the state department people that are going to go to Hawaii on April 4th where he's going to join later that night after a congressional dinner and then at 5:30 he gets the news that Martin Luther King had been shot so everything changed after that riots happened in the streets two months later Bobby Kennedy was killed the peace talk stalled and then the Democratic party comes together in Chicago again as it was is it going to be this year as well and there's still chaos because the war is going on the anti-war activists are there they fight with the police and then Teddy white the same journalist I mentioned earlier predicted that the Democrats had lost the election that night but fate had intervened who knows what would have happened if King hadn't been killed if Bobby hadn't been killed if Bobby had won the race the Democrats had won then his decision would have been a Continuum to keep going the liberal philosophy that he cared about so we'll see what happens with Biden you know it will make a big difference if whoever the nominee is wins the race that he will have helped that happen if that person loses then people might question could he have done it earlier should he have done it earlier um so we've got Fate that we're we don't know where we're going on this we can clearly know that we didn't know where we were a month ago to imagine that this could be happening but what does he do now does he just say I'm going to keep my eye on some of my pet projects does he go all in in this race to help elect the Democratic nominee or how does he continue to wrap up his own presidency and will people help him do that it's a really good question Maria because in part in his letter he said he wanted to focus you know on the presidential duties and that would mean helping to bring peace if he could to to the Middle Eastern situation supporting Ukraine in the war of aggression against them by Russia and and knowing that those are the kind of things that would help in the long run anyway not only for himself and the country but for the election but it's hard to imagine that he'll stay away from the campaign Trail as well I mean he's going to be endorsing as he said his vice president and I imagine he'll get it's not like 68 where there was a primary campaign still going on so President Johnson couldn't endorse anybody still um until it was resolved in the nomination but I might suspect that he'll be focusing on presidential duties and the presidency will be using whatever resources it has she has control of those in some ways the money that was put put into the campaign the staff that would have been there for the campaign she will already have if she is the nominee she will have access to those but will will people take a quote lame duck president seriously does he really have the power to get things done in this limited time I think on foreign policy he may still have the power I mean it's certainly gets diminished when you're not going to be there much longer but given that it she's going to be fight that's why maybe the answer to your earlier question is he almost has to do both because his power will depend in part on how the Democrats are doing in the election if they're doing better and they look like they might be winning then his power ex ex you know exceeds itself if not then it probably will be lessened if it looks like it's going to be a blowout so maybe he'll be doing both at the same time hoping hoping that it helps the country this is conjecture but what do you think changed for him as I said you know Friday after the Republican convention he was like I can't can't wait to get back out there and make my case I can't wait to get back out there and you know 30 some hours later he's like I'm Gonna Stand Down what do you think made that happen because you also talk about Johnson up until the last second uh you know there was vacillating what do you think pushed him over you know I would guess that the conversations that he was having with his fellow congressmen and Senators who were talking to them not only the ones who went public in saying he should stand down but many more in private who were saying that and they were telling him not just that they thought he should stand down but they were hearing reports from his constit from their constituents you know 90% of whom said he should leave the race and having been a man of Congress for such a long period of time these were his colleagues that had to finally get absorbed by him even more important maybe than the polls to hear those reports from his F from his fellow colleagues and finally realizing that as much as you can change you know the way the debate was viewed as much as you can come back from so many other things that you have in your life it's hard to come back from the perception that you're too old for this and that you may not make it through the next four years with the kind of strength you would need to have don't you think this this must be so heartbreaking for him on a personal level as you said this is a man who's really given his entire life uh who prides himself also on the relationships uh that come from politics right you know of being that kind of standup guy um to see people turning on him in these last uh couple of weeks um publicly privately what do you think that did to him it must have been really really hard and I and you can see that there was a range of emotions that had provoked even more stubborn I'm going to stay in this race feeling he was being betrayed you know saying I'm going to show you in a certain sense and and making the people themselves feel guilty you know the donor or Elites you know these are not the people that are speaking the people still care about me I can imagine that whole range of emotions that he went through and that's why I'm imagining that maybe there's a relief now that having it's so hard when you have a decision you're anticipating making and it seems so hard to make and then finally when you make it there's a release from that tension and at least he knows now that those very same people the editorialists the donors the colleagues the Senators the congressmen are praising him for what he did and also praising him he's luckier away than some of the other presidents who've had only one term you know people are saying pretty generally that he's had a very good presidency a a consequential presidency in a recent poll he was R ranked number 14 that's in the top third for what he's already accomplished sometimes it takes much longer for that Lyndon Johnson hoped that he would be in that group and he is in that group now but it's taken years for the domestic enormous accomplishments to to come into focus with the war in Vietnam having seared that Legacy in too so Biden got that going for him he can feel like he's already got a legancy and he can just hope that that this is the right decision who knows whether you second guess it as time goes by Johnson began to second guess it in the summer after 68 when Humphrey wasn't catching on and some of the Senators came to and said you should have stayed in then for a few minutes he thought oh my God maybe I should have and he was very um jealous of of Harry Truman's temperament because Harry Truman once he made a decision never went back he never walked the carpet at at night and Johnson used to say wish I could be more like Truman so we'll see what happens with with Biden whether he second guess this or whether this gives him a piece to go forward from the tension which much as you say it must have been terrible these last three weeks some of the worst weeks aside from the personal traumas that he experienced in his life youris how will history treat him how will you treat him because you're the one that people look to like to put it in context how will you treat him well I think history or me writing about him some years lat L it takes it takes a while I mean even right now as I'm saying the domestic accomplishments that he was able to achieve in a very closely divided Congress and he was able to go across party lines and make compromises that made the infrastructure possible you know the prescription drugs the chip act all the the acts that have helped families and Veterans over this period of time and I think putting NATO expanding NATO and support for Ukraine will be viewed well in history um again it will depend in part on what happens in this election because whether he waited too long to to let go and and it could have been a wider race among the Democrats if the person wins that he is supporting if if Harris were to win then that would give him a leg up I think he'll be remembered for having beaten Trump in 2020 and for you know for having if people believe that so save democracy um so there's a lot that he already has going but it takes a while for presidents it takes Memoirs being written it takes time it makes light letters Diaries coming out to see what kind of a leader was he um we know about his empathy we know about his humility some of the qualities we know about leaders we've already seen in him but I I wish I could come back 50 years from now and I I'll tell you much more about how he's regarded than I can do today