SWT Podcast #5, Coach Jeff Choate, University of Nevada-Reno Wolf Pack

all right hey Jeff it is a uh honestly just a huge honor uh means a ton to be able to connect with you and and just talk about your optic on leadership on culture you know we've known each other for I don't know seven seven years or so now and uh excited to see what the future goes but when it comes to leadership and culture I've I've taken a ton from our engagement so I'm just uh so be able to share that with our listeners and other people out there who are working through similar problems in different environments um yeah before we get going man I just GNA see do you do you mind just sharing the the five minute Jeff Cho story yeah yeah well Phil I appreciate you and everything you do I know we've been Partners now for for a while a couple of different Endeavors we're starting this new launch that we're doing here at the University of Nevada and so um I I just like I said I've always felt like we kind of have a a lot of similarities in terms of how we look at these things and and uh and I know that just interacting with you a lot of times fuels my fire and hopefully you know anybody that that engages with this opportunity on this podcast they kind of get the same thing it's not always something that you learn it's that reinforcement of the things that you're doing well that can really drive you forward so um yeah I've been I've been doing this a long time I started out as a high school teacher and Coach I'm from a small North Idaho logging Town St Mary's Idaho population about 2100 and uh went to directional Montana Western Montana college and Dylan Montana and so I'm not I'm not ID League educated by any stretch of the imagination that's why we get along you realize it yeah yeah yeah so uh I was very close to dropping out myself Phill and uh um that's that's kind of I think a lot of the uh I take a lot of pride in that I say that not not you know it sounds self-deprecating but really I take a lot of pride in the fact that I I do feel like I've kind of come from the School of Hard Knocks and educated myself in a lot of ways and didn't come through this in a way that you know was handed anything uh like I said I was a high school teacher and coach for nine years I got into Administration that drove me directly out of public education and so I GA at Utah State University when I was 32 years old had a wife and a young son at the time did that for a year got hired full-time at Utah State two years later as what happens in the coaching industry our staff got let go and it was really my first encounter with anything like that and it was a lot of it was beyond my control as kind of underling there and that was kind of a one of those first Forks in the road where you're like okay I bet on myself to go do this college football thing and it hasn't really worked out up to this point and I remember my wife was like well hey we you're not going back and coaching we made all these sacrifices you go find a job buddy and so that was uh how I ended up at Eastern Illinois for a year and uh had a really good experience there won a lot of games uh took a program that had been struggling into uh the second round of the N FCS playoffs and subsequently got an opportunity to interview at Boise State University and that was kind of where my career took off in 20062 2007 we ended up beating Oklahoma in a really really cool football game in the Fiesta Bowl that year and in pretty spectacular fashion and um from that point on you know the trajectory of my career especially there at that place took off and so um was there at boy state for six years won a lot of football games I think four conference championships two BCS bulll games uh kind of reached that point where I felt like I I was kind of maxed out with what I could do there and took a job with Mike Leech of all people I went from working for Chris Peterson who's about a Straight Arrow communication detail Precision uh you know as as you can get to a guy that was like free form football working for Coach leech and so uh that was an interesting experience in of itself I did that for a year went to University of Florida did that for a year and then Chris Peterson finally left boisee and there was opportunity for growth that you dub so literally in like about a 18mth period I went from Pullman Washington to uh Gainesville Florida back to Seattle Washington and so that was you have a lot of you have a lot of pins in your family map of places that CH Liv then yeah yeah yeah not not as many as you I mean even though some of those were you weren't there for long but uh yeah definitely we put some miles on for sure and so that that kind of I I kind of talk about that as kind of like almost being a sabatical in my career I went out and had the opportunity to you know after working for Chris for six years go and see how a guy like Mike Leech who's kind of this mad genius does it and then go work for a guy like will muschamp who's kind of a Mad genius in his own right and um really gave me some perspective and I think brought some new ideas back when I went to work for Chris again at the University of Washington that um a lot of that staff had been very homogeneous and they hadn't gone a lot of places and I was kind of the outlier I'd gone out and seen things and done things and brought some different ideas back and so I think that was valuable for me but it was also valuable for our organization and then um from there I I was there for two years kind of helped get that thing relaunched at udub and then I took a job at the Montana State University and that's where you and I got to know each other first and took a program that had had uh you know three cons of losing seasons and within four years there we were competing for a national championship we were in the National semi-finals and couldn't get past the North Dakota State Bison but nobody else could either and uh then we hit covid and uh you and I did some creative stuff to keep our guys busy then and that was a frustrating time for me and I kind of made a took kind of another calculated decision I I tried to get some FBS head Jo coaching jobs and kind of got put in this box as I'm an FCS coach so I took off and went to University of Texas and stepped into a program that was on The Struggle Bus and three years later we were in the in the cfp and uh that led to an opportunity to be here at the University of Nevada so kind of maybe have developed a reputation as being a guy that's not afraid to take on challenges and uh certainly this is one um but so was Montana State when we got there so was Texas when we got there and so I feel like I've got some perspective on that and uh I try to surround myself with really good people including you to help uh to help us take this thing where we want it to go love it I I mean even just hearing you share your story I I wrote down a bunch of notes because there's stuff I want to dig into later but I realize you only have 12 hours for this podcast so I don't want to go long on it but um I something that stands out to me and I don't know if I realized this about you that you said you were 32 when you started coaching at the Collegiate level when you when you were a ga you were 32 and already had a kid married that's pretty different than the traditional GA coming on board right yeah very much so in fact I think when I go and talk to high school coaching groups at clinics or whatever that's one of the after after the fact a lot of people that know my story that's the biggest thing like how did you do this like how did you take this leap of faith and and it really was I mean basically went from you know having a pretty comfortable lifestyle uh to uh to working for next to nothing and um there were some sacrifices that had to be made but I think that's true anytime you know anything that that you're going to do that's worthwhile you're going to have some pain and sacrifice involved in that I I absolutely love that because I think so many people get lulled into this this comfortable life like it's good enough but they're they're not fulfilled they know they're missing aart there's just they're being called a different direction and I feel like I've worked with so many people that just kind of M down and they're like oh well it's too late it is what it is and so it it was really neat heing you say that and as I've gotten to know a bit more about football realizing like oh that that's late in the game to jump over especially with you know the responsibilities you had so that's uh that's that's pretty rad um and it's it's something I've seen people will do that that I just have mad respect for so something you taught me that I found really powerful and I've taken with other groups and so I want to hear your take on it is is your 4's question you really want to get to know someone and I think this is a great tool you know for leaders you know trying to get to know their team I did it with a a recent business group and these are people that some of them worked together for 13 years and they heard things they' never heard of so i' I'd love to ask you you know the 4 exercise for those the listeners who haven't heard it before it's hey tell me about your home life uh tell me about your hero a hardship you've overcome and then what's the greatest honor you've ever received it just kind of gives Insight with with how we're wired so I'd love to hear your answer these questions yeah so I think that's it's it's you're right it's it's a a snapshot into somebody's life and who they are and kind of a lot of a lot of the self-exploration and and you do a lot of this you do this with our our current players and our staff is you know what's your why and what wires you why do you do what you do and I think this is kind of a a Bas level way to kind of find some of that stuff out and um you know I'll give you the Reader's Digest version because I know that uh you know as you get older you get a your your your home life your stories get longer as you get older right for sure so um you know I'm 53 years old I I've got I've got two kids that are really really important to me my son Jory is a Montana State grad you know Jory uh you got to work with him a little bit when he was playing football at Montana State uh my daughter ja's a sophomore at uh the University of South Carolina and my my wife Janet I'll be married 29 years in uh in June um is the back bound you know like I told the story about her pushing me to keep going in college football and so that's uh my home life my family is very very important to me I have two brothers that I'm very close with uh my father's past my mom is still a big part of my life as well so that's kind of that's kind of my my inner circle so to speak that that that big why for me um you know some of the some of the things that I've been through um you know the hardship piece it's funny because as you get older I don't think you look at it the same like some some of the things that I thought of as hardships I look at as such blessings but there was a time um after my sophomore year in college I was in a in a pretty significant car accident and spent about 14 days got a helicopter ride out of it got a spent about 14 days in the hospital in Spokane Washington and uh was no longer able to compete at the Collegiate level in football went back and tried but you know ended up back having another Sur and all that kind of stuff and so I really kind of was at that crossroads and had to you know this old outage of football is something that you do it's not who you are well I wasn't ready to hear that at 19 20 years old and uh ultimately decided that I was never going to work with day in my life I was going to get into college coaching eventually and that took me nine years down my path as a as a high school educator and teacher but I I do think that that hardship and again I think it's about perspective right I look back on it now and I wouldn't be where I am today without that incident taking place in my life and so uh while it was very challenging in the moment moment it was uh it was in a weird way a blessing and uh I think that that we can probably all look back on tough circumstances that we've been through and and think about the lessons that we take away from those and that's really can turn into a positive as we get older it kind of makes us who we are 100 perc I mean that's you know literally ston waterer half the model is built around engineered adversity with the assumption that hey when when we're in those toughest times is when the real loss is exposed right it strips things away and you see who we are and and yeah it hurts but I think after fact you realize you're like hey that's that's where I grew that's where I moved that's where I learned so love it what about uh I'm curious like who who's Jeff Cho's hero and and I know Phil cornu is like one of the top three but we don't want to go into that that would seem self-aggrandizing so we'll just we'll take that as a given who's number two yeah I I would say my honestly my my kids are I me I'm just so proud of my my son and my daughter and I kind of told you my story if you can imagine you know like my son Jory goes from being you know uh uh a six years in the same Elementary School in in boy Boise Idaho you know pretty homogeneous Community we mooved him to Pullman nine months later we moved to to Gainesville Florida you know this kid just never missed a beat you know he's very stoic very very tough-minded um is a phenomenal human being I mean I'm just really proud of my kids and really in a lot of ways those guys are my heroes because I know how tough it would have been it was for them to move around and it kind of came out of the other side of it through the smoke and it's just like wow how did they become so so well-rounded and and open and um you know understanding and appreciative of other people's challenges and I think a lot of it is all that moving around but that isn't easy and so uh I really look at them as as two of my heroes um and then as far as the honor piece you know I I think about we're all put on this Earth to do something right and I know that my my purpose my calling is to serve young men through this game and so I'm honored to be the head coach at Nevada just like I was honored to be the DC at Texas or the head coach at Montana State and I think that you know every step of the way I just pinch myself and think well I got this great platform to do things for not just these young men but this community and the more I think about having a service mindset the more comes back to me yeah yeah I I I remember several conversations we've had where we talk about hey what what's the why we do it at the end of the day it's not about X's nose or or the scoreboard like it's about you know pursuing Excellence transforming lives football for you just happens to be the vehicle for it uh but such a such a powerful lens and I mean I even think back some of the athletes you know that I got to know uh back in Montana State you know fast forward 7 years later seeing where they are and what they're doing and and not not even like hey just the ones that went pro but you know DK marks is an example like I see some of the impact he has now you know he's he's leading his realm other people and it's like oh you know that was definitely part of the you know he was awesome on the football field on Saturday but that Excellence transferred to pass that grit that impact uh you imp parted on him um carried forward you know and I know he had a bunch of other influences too but is just super cool to see that um no I appreciate you sharing that and like I said I I love doing that exercise you're the one who kind of got me hooked to it the first time I saw it I was like this is gold because it's those it's just those powerful questions right that that seem to go so much deeper and um yeah having people share those like I said the last time I did it just watching people have known each other for 13 years go I I never knew that about her I never knew that about him and moving forward I think once you get that vulnerability and trust you know performance comes comes close behind um you know with a few other key ingredients so and on that note SP talking about key ingredients we both geek out about leadership and culture um I still use the definition of leadership that you dropped on me out in Yellowstone when we were on you know a trip uh this thing is 2019 but I'd love to know from your optic leadership what is it why does it matter how the hell do you build it you know players teams whatnot yeah I think um one of the things that I think is important to do without not trying to skip around here but what the hell skip around all you want is kind of have this personal statement and I think that part of that is for me like I'm looking at my personal statement I have it over here on the left hand side because I want to be true to me and when you take the time to put these things down I think that's important like you know who am I why am I here what is my purpose right what can I do that nobody else can do better how do I lead what my coaching philosophy is what I believe about culture and then kind of a a wrapup right so like and and I do this probably once a year maybe a little bit more depending on what the situation is but oftentimes around events like like interviewing for a job okay I got I need to I need to revisit this or there's a life-changing event I need to re visit this but the thing that it does for me is it like I I try to tell it like my players too when you think about your core values that's like your road map like who you are as a man should never change right and I think that kind of to your point about leadership at its core that what you believe about leadership really has to be pretty steadfast right you can't just say well that's not leadership or that's leadership or this is not leadership but this is it kind of has to have that that common themee and there's a million different ways that you can exhibit leadership but I think the if I recall correctly the definition that we talked about was helping a group or individual accomplish their goals right something along those lines and and I think that's where um by that I'm pretty sure I'm pretty sure this is what you said I hope it is because otherwise I've been lying for five years but I'm I think you said hey at the end of the day it's about leveraging influence to achieve an impact and I remember you saying you're like it's independent of position you're like the the walk-on freshman you know because you're you're coaching at that point to the head coach because they all have a platform but I mean it's it's essentially also to what you said no and I think that that's that that framework of by by those definitions anybody can lead yeah but your status your stage where you are on your leadership Journey as you like to call it like that's that's all that's all relative to your circumstances and your position in life but that doesn't mean that you can't practice this skill and I really do believe it's a skill and I think that the the thing that a lot of leaders especially in my profession and coaching everybody complains about leadership I mean in almost every well we don't have very many leaders we don't have a lot of good leaders I don't feel great about our leadership is this Co coaches complaining about athletes or athletes about coaches like when you say everyone complains who's just I would say often times it is a two-way street but generally speaking that's that's the coaches talking down to the locker room right it's like where are our leaders where are they going to step up when are you going to start leading gotcha and it dawned on me you know during the time that I was working for Chris that he was one of the only guys that that really invested in leadership and that was something that I took with me and that that you know having a curriculum and investing in leadership whether that's engaging with stone water or building out my own thoughts on it or taking time to talk about those things on a on a Wednesday morning with our team you you can't really complain about it if you're not investing in it and so uh that's what I want to do is I want to make sure that we consistently invest in that leadership skill um and give kids opportunities look for kids opport opportunities for kids to be in leadership positions I'll give you an example we have a a charity softball game that we're doing in June and part of the part of the task is yeah some of the guys are going to play we're gonna we're doing it for a charity in Northern Nevada and we're doing it against First Responders so the First Responders are going to have 20 players and the football players are gonna have 20 players well that's great mean those guys can go play softball but there's all these opportunities we've got marketing we've got somebody that's got to go out and find resources to buy uniforms we've got guys that are going to do concessions guys that are going to do the announce ing all these different opportunities to provide leadership and step into that role and then they're going to have subordinance they're going to have their lieutenants that they've got to say hey I need you to execute this task and you know we'll find out what kind of leaders they are right and uh you know we did the scavenger hunt exercise that kind of puts different guys in different positions where they've got to make decisions and you find out a lot about these kids through those through those opportunities but you also find out what the holes in your game overall are you know um and I think that barking orders is not leadership you know and yelling is not coaching screaming is not coaching or teaching and not to say that those things aren't going to happen but they are I think it's important you got to Pro look for opportunities and say hey let's debrief on this and let's talk about why did you react in that that way in that particular situation or how did you try to get to the outcome that you wanted could you you know articulate that or tell the group this and you'll see like the light going on in their head like yeah that was stupid or they'll know exactly why they did it and I'm like all right Bingo that's awesome that was intentional you did that with purpose that was a really wise decision hey even if the outcome wasn't what you wanted you made it without you didn't hesitate you took initiative you stepped into that role you took the bullets for the team whatever it was and I think that that's a big piece of this is like it's not just the idea the concept of what leadership is but it's what are you doing to provide opportunities to put kids in leader in my case kids into these leadership positions and then examine what they did well and what they need to improve upon I love that so this is what I'm hearing you say so first off leadership I'm going to butcher the the the definition you gave in this but you're like kind of being able to synchronize and coordinate a group to accomplish a given Mission or task uh and then you know I brought up hey leveraging influence to achieve an impact which I still give CR credit to you and I'm going to until you tell me I'm wrong because I like it and it's easy um I I think why it's important it doesn't matter whether it's it's football or business or military uh if you want to have sustained high performance over time in in a culture of Excellence leadership's critical I believe that's a given I I know we both think that's a given because we we live it and strive for it but what you said that I think is really powerful is I think this relates to to people out there listening is hey if you want to build it like that's the magic thing right like we can Define it all day long there's millions of books uh we can talk about why it's important there's another million books about that I mean I have half of them behind me that's less than half a million but you know four uh but that hey how do we do it and and I love what you said like first off like you have to focus on it you have to talk about it if you want to build it you have to has to be at the table and and at least address it and acknowledge like this is relevant and this is important and then the second part you said is have a structure whether you're leveraging John Maxwell or Stephen cvy or or Jeff Cho's framework that he's seen work through the ages or you know Stone Waters what whatever but you've got a structure and an a way is not the way and there's multiple paths to the top but you got to have something so number one we recognize importance number two we have a vehicle for growth is it the best no is a Ford one F you know F-150 and outrun a Lamborghini maybe in a muddy field but probably not on the road and then I love you okay so we've got the focus we've got the structure which tells me there's a formal mechanism to to to teach leadership and now we've got the opportunities to test themselves and and even the examples you gave you know a softball game concessions marketing things that have nothing to do with what these athletes are going to do from August 24th on or I I wouldn't say nothing but no direct correlation but you recognize them having to communicate reflect you know debrief go what worked what didn't how do I improve next time that applies to everything whether it's fourth in inches and they're getting ready to go going okay how do I do my part now or yeah running concessions for a charity softball game I I love that man that's a really good way to put it I'm probably going to steal that and trade market for ston waterer just you know so I'd ask you to never say that again all good we're gonna be part someday anyway Phil it all be you know we'll be good there's a there's a there's a G4 out there with corach Cho on the tail on the tail thing we might have to change change the name to choa Chuck I don't know which works better yeah there's a lead there's a leadership culture com into making um you know after you uh you know wi win a few more bowls under your belt and decide you want to change a pace but no I I really appreciate that um so I'm curious like you brought up mad genius leaders Straight Arrow leaders like I love the picture because I in my head I'm going oh yeah I've worked for a mad genius I've definitely had the the Straight Arrow types um who's you know what's one or two leaders it just left a hell of an impact on you that you're like man this person I learned a lot about leadership yeah I think uh yeah I think Chris because I worked for him the longest um that's Chris leech Chris Peterson I'm sorry sorry Chris Peterson and and and I got to see him in in a couple of different venues right where stepping in as a first-time head coach at boisee state in 2006 and then seeing him kind of take that step up to the power five level and take over a program at Washington and the growth because I I stepped away and went on kind of on my own little journey for a couple years before I rejoined the band so to speak in Seattle and so that was really fun to be able to see kind of where he had grown and where he had um had kind of evolved I think that the thing that I I can speak to about leadership is I think you know certainly being a charismatic person can help you but I think consistency is probably one of the one of the more important things um I I I did see a lot of that Chris was a very consistent person uh in terms of his day a day he was not what I call the roller coaster guy or you know the guy that gets his Starbucks on Monday and everything's great and then Tuesday he's late to work and pissed off the world uh because you know his kids made a mess and I'm I'm right here like I can hear you say that but uh but I think he was good at that you know I think Steve sarkeesian was good at that I think he had been through his kind of personal struggles and was very consistent in his approach to a on a day-to-day with us as as as the assistant coaches but also with our players and I think that's there's a calming influence even if you're high I'm a high energy guy but I try to bring it every day yeah and I think if the kids know what they're going to get or your subordinates in the office know what they're going to get it's a lot easier to give it to you um when you're when you're kind of all over the map and and a little bit of that that stock market boss uh that has those highs and lows I think it really makes it difficult for the organization to to kind of gel and Co colus because they don't know exactly what's expected that it kind of comes out of nowhere so I think like those are some of the qualities that I think are really important I think that um that calm consistent demeanor is really is really valuable but also having really high standards I mean that's one thing you know you might think Chris Peterson because he was a Straight Arrow nice guy that he didn't have high he was the most demanding guy I ever worked for um but sure as heck didn't want to let him down love it yeah when I when I reflect back on like leaders who made me better it it was never just the nice guy it wasn't the one who yeah the Starbucks on Monday one it was the one who was like Hey that that was good or maybe that was bad but you can do better let's bring it up bring it up bring it up I mean I I would have you know been happy to stay as a lower and listed guy for my 20 years uh in just a a line unit and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that but like that's where I would have been happy but I had people who were like hey man you got more to give um you can do better you know or you can do more um that's huge I love that you brought up consistency because that's like wildly unsexy in leadership but so key and I you know I worked with a few of the roller coaster types worked under them worked alongside them I had a few of them under me and one of the parts like I've kind of got these three basic rules when when someone ambushes me goes how do I be a good leader and I got to leave in 30 seconds I go okay three things uh number one show up so show show up you know right place right time right uniform number two look the part meaning even if you don't feel consistent you bring your energy levels like yeah you you talk and there's amp to it um I'm sure there's days or you're like dude I just dragging head's killing me didn't sleep last night but you still go hey this is who I am let me let me fill this role until I actually feel the role and then um you know number the third is is being able to listen uh and really read what's going on in the room or the situation but yeah that number two look the part kind of lends itself to consistency quite a bit meaning be be that consistent high standard leader so love it and uh yeah it's it's cool to hear you share like Chris Peterson you know kind of his journey and then you know Steve sarcassian is another great example because I mean his he sort of embodies that hey I'm not the person today that I was yesterday we all change we all learn we all grow um whether you're a hero or zero there's you know don't rest on your laurels if you kicked ass yesterday and conversely if you tripped and fell get yourself back up and get into the fight people judge you based on yesterday but that doesn't mean that's who you are today um so I love that so what what are you looking for it's you know you you recently took over Nevada Wolf Pack uh you brought in you know a ton of Talent on the coaching side uh you guys just went through you know or are going through the the the portal piece where players are coming and going who does coach choke like how do you select and identify like this is this person's gonna be a leader gonna be a force on the team what are you looking for yeah well college football is extremely different than it was even three years ago and it's like it's such an evolutionary deal that one of the things that was so easy to do is get emotionally attached to people you know hey this is my recruit this is my favorite player I love this kid or whatever and and you don't want to lose that that ability to connect with people on a viseral level but you've got to take a motion out of this now because it has become so much of a business and the guys that that you go through those those that smoke with um a year from now this team's going to be a lot different we're going to be a lot tighter the trust is going to be codified because of what we've gone through together right now none of us have ever been through the smoke with each other right so so that part of it is tough but I I can tell you this cons consistantly 100% of the time select on character first it's not about ability it doesn't matter how fast a kid is if he's not going to lay it on the line for his teammates Because he believes in the cause um it it doesn't matter how how high their football IQ is it doesn't matter you know how much they bench press or squat like ultimately whether it's my support staff our coaching staff or our players you always select on character first a five-star player that's a two-star person will get you beat a two star person or two star U player that's a five-star person will surprise you and help you win and I guess the inverse of that is especially as you're taking over a program or you can bring someone on board that seems like they have a lot of character if there's a breach or violation of character that that's your ticket out the door I'd imagine I mean I'm I'm sure there's certain hard lines that you're like hey this is not tolerated within our organization and when I look at the organizations that have failed you know a lot of times it's not a they failed to perform it's not a their product was garbage it's not they weren't they didn't shoot tight enough as an elite unit it's when it is catastrophic failure doesn't take very long to go down to character even the ones that fail to perform you dig down a few layers and you go oh they had double standards they had this they had that um I mean is that something where you're you're comfortable on on your team like if someone has a breaching character that you're like hey I love you a star athlete star coach but there's the door is that the situ you've been in you almost have to have those moments in order for everybody to take you seriously you you got to draw that Line in the Sand and you know leadership is about what's tolerated to a certain degree um I will say this about the character piece I think there's two types of character in my world right there's there's personal character who you are outside the white lines right and then there is competitive character and I've got to measure both of those I I can't take a bad person into my organization but I that person still has to have that competitive character that means that you know when the whistle blows man they've got a deep desire to go you know do what they have to do to to own their 20 square feet and win that moment yeah yeah it's it's War yeah they gotta that switch and I think so so I think that sometimes people you know will misinterpret well select on character first everybody's got to be a nice guy no hey I want that guy that's a nice guy and opens the door for you know the elderly lady walking into the supermarket but I want him to to be the guy that's going to take care of business on fourth and one yeah yeah yeah put a put a hole through the the other line um yeah absolutely it's interesting I think back so we used to you know within the Special Operations Community I think selecting on character uh in on attribute versus skill is something that's often said not always executed by all organizations but the ones that do it and do it consistently and I mean there is a certain Baseline of physical ability and skill I mean sure which a lot of times is a reflection of character meaning if someone sets their mind on a goal and they do the work and they they they build their skill and capability to the point that they can go to a screening process they've usually demonstrated that so they show up but um but yeah there's a lot of skilled liabilities out there that you can bring into your organization because they've got all the bells and whistles and next thing you know your your front page news and you've got a lot of rebuilding to do so I I love that you identify that I think that's where we connected is seeing the connection between character and performance like it's not just this is the kind of environment I want to have independent of the of the W's at the end of the season it's like no no because long-term Legacy of performance character is at the root of it I I I believe 10 out of 10 times um you know which which kind of ties in the next question we're we're both culture Geeks I mean I think I've got like three or four culture books you've given me or referred me to uh sitting around me right now and I think I gave you one so you're you're winning good job that's competitive character but um I'm Gonna Mail you three tonight so we'll be even but I'm curious culture what is it how do you why does it matter how do you build it I mean like said we got listeners from all different spectrums here but I'd love to hear your take I've SE I've seen you do this you're you're on your third iteration that I've seen and I'm I'm excited because I know where this is going you know um how fast that that's where I'm I'm really excited to see but yeah what's your take on culture yeah I think I think it's a buzzword that's maybe overused now I everybody has culture you know can be good can be bad um that's that's part of you know what I think people forget about that they talk about oh well you know we have a great culture here we'll Define it for me right and and I and I think that's why it's hard to Define it's it's this it's kind of Morpheus in that you know it's not something that you gree Out and Touch or or or or way you know it's it's you know to steal a phrase you know it's not what's spoke it's not what's written on the walls it's what's spoken in the Halls it's the talk track it's how people treat each other it's the expectations it's what's allowed or what's not allowed the standards that you operate by on a daily basis right it's those as you have said many many times when I've been around you it's not stated values it's live values that's what your culture is it's what you do on a daily basis within the walls of that organization and um so when you walk into our facility you know um the Patriots forever and ever anybody that's been a patriot somebody out there's probably watching the Tom Brady roast on Netflix right well it talks about Julian edelman's up there talking about do your job well that's the huge sign when you walk into the Patriots facility says do your job well that's that's what that culture was really founded on was like when you walk in these walls you take care of your 20 square feet you be responsible and accountable for you right and so I think that's a huge part of culture is is not it's culture isn't what the organization represents it's what the individuals within the organization live tolerate and abide by on a daily basis right and so when I think about that you know like like I said it's not it's not that it's not that slogan and the thing about culture that's really interesting it is freaking hard to build you know that old you know H gained in inches lost in miles right I mean it's not you don't just print out a few slides and tape them up in the bathroom and locker room and hope guys get it yeah got it we're gonna win games this year yeah so check check out the new kitten poster just hang in there we got it and I think that's true uh but I think for me what I've kind of driven it down to is like when I think there's there's two phases there's what I call building culture and then driving it right when you're building the culture it starts with the vision and really that's done in a vacuum the leader can't go in and say what do you guys think our vision our culture ought to be around here I mean the you know the vision for the organization that's not going to work right he's got to go in with a pretty clear idea about this is who we want to what I want this organization to be about and how I want this to look right and then and then you start to dig into hey our core values and the individual team goals which for us like the value shouldn't change like I said earlier that's kind of a road map for us uh both individually and collectively for an organization for us here it's Pride accountability character and Killer Instinct pack right and so and then you drill down into those and you kind of use that as a teaching model both for me as the head coach but also for our assistant coaches so those are like I tell them every day it's like your fundamentals you know you're going to do footwork every day you're going to train your eyes every day you're going to use talk about hand placement body position every day you need talk about Pride accountability character and Killer Instinct every day and some way shape or form that's got to be a part of it that it's got to be clear concise and repetitive it's got to be in front of these guys every day and so those are the things that I try to make sure that we're doing when we're trying to build the culture right so you've got your vision formed primarily by the by the leader your values that should be collaborative and Collective but consistent and then you've got these individual team goals so team 118 at Nevada we have our our set of goals that are unique to us because our team's going to change every year and our goals are going to change so this year our goal may not be to win the national championship because that may not be attainable for a team coming off a two and10 record and that wasn't what I had on on the top of our pyramid at Montana State year one but by the time we got to year four it was on the top because it was attainable and possible and so I think they it does need to be realistic so that's kind of how I see the building of culture and then this idea of driving it forward like we framed what we want our culture to be and now how do we keep moving it Forward every day and for us that starts with selection and I talked about selecting on character first but that selection that's an ongoing process for us that's recruiting high school student athletes excellent coaches amazing support people that are that are a players and five and give festar customer service but that's also identifying guys in the transfer portal and Junior College transfers and so it's gotten a lot more convoluted than it used to be so it's kind of this big in the selection process the analogy I use it's like you know I'm going to take a little bit of this and a little bit of this and a little bit of this a little bit of this and we're going to shake it up and that's going to be team 118 and every year is this big you know cocktail of you know a culture experiment and so um sometimes you have a really good recipe and sometimes you don't but that doesn't mean that you're not going to keep trying to make that that cocktail as good as you can make it and so the selection process is important for us then the second is the indoctrination phase to me um so once they are part of our organization how do we help them to understand hey this is who we are this is how we do things around here you're a part of our tribe now we want you to understand our language and our Traditions um what's acceptable what's not acceptable that Baseline entry into that freshman walking into the locker room going okay what the hell am I supposed to do today and that senior puts his armor on him and says that's where your dirty laundry goes this is your locker don't put your shoes on the floor take your necklace off when you go into the weight room follow me today stand stay right on my hip we'll be fine right so that's that indoctrination process and sometimes that's the Big Brother program but there's more to that right that's coming over to my house and breaking bread with me and them getting to feel like they're a part of my family different things of that nature and then last but not least um is this sense of belonging and and I talked about you know you're wearing a Nevada a Nevada shirt today that that you know when I walk through an airport and I see somebody I know they're part of my tribe right we're we have something in common we have that unspoken Bond so to speak because we're we're in the same colors right and I think that sense of belonging is really important but I think in our sport one of the things that is the most meaningful and impactful is the idea of a future orientation helping a young man see not what he is today but what he can be in the future and that you let them know especially me as a leader that you know well hey you're screwing up right now clearly you're a mess you know you're a freshman and you've got 2DS and and in a c in these classes and you can barely get to time to workouts on time and you know but man you have flashes and I can see it I to I brought you here because I believe in you and I know your future is going to be great and get through the tough times we're here to support you but your Future's bright and here's why I think that and that that sense of future orientation can change your outlook dramatically and I think that's been one of my secrets with developing players is they will they if you take the time to show them what they can be instead of letting them mire in the the misery of what their MO what their life is in that moment where they're getting their butt chewed for this and that and can't get this done right or that done right you know then they're gonna fail but if you can show them what what's out there for them what that that that Brass Ring that's out there for them to grab I can't tell you how many times that's been the key and and young men have come back to me you know I've been doing this long enough now that I've had guys say do you remember when you sat sat down with me at lunch at the boisey River Cafe and I was about ready to quit and I didn't and all you did was just have a chat with me and tell me I was going to be good you know I don't know if I believed it or not but you know what the heck it kept him there yeah I I love that future orientation piece I was talking to someone this morning and we were talking about leadership and impact big surprise I was talking about leadership with someone over coffee I know you can't imagine what that would be like but it it one of the things that came up is like hey As Leaders we're ERS in Hope like hope that you can improve you can grow you can get better organizationally we can make a difference we can get better you know 2024 is better than 2023 and how do I implant just and it's not hope like oh I hope this works out or I hope we win but no I I have hope that the future will be better than today if we put in the work if we have a solid plan you know we got a good chance and if it doesn't you know what we'll get back at it tomorrow we'll change things we'll try again and we're going to we're going to stay after that combination of consistent persistency and hope uh but I love how you tie the the leadership mindset of of future orientation you know to that with the athletes uh so that that's pretty gold I'm G to trademark this stuff all for t uh Stone water as well but just that that culture piece the vision the values the goals very similar to how we look for it uh and then I like you know for the building piece and I like the driving piece you know number one who are you bringing on board how do you indoctrinate them how do you build that sense of belonging and yeah what what a great example because I like how you you talk about it as it goes on in Rena and and as it's going to go on through the summer as as you guys build the Army you're going to war with but to anyone out there running a real estate company or a nonprofit or you know taking over command of some unit they go you know what yeah it's all about who do I bring in you know and then the indoctrination how my culture shapes them and oh by the way the people who come in are going to shape your culture to degree now the beauty of your population 18 to 22 year olds they're a lot more malleable so if you have a culture set and articulated they have something to migrate to you said something else I love too that hey for organizations building their culture you know make it make it clear concise and repetitive I've worked with teams that have like an essay on their culture statement and like here are 27 core values and I'm like you give me 27 you might as well give me zero I can't remember that I'm an army guy limited to three if I was Navy you could do four Air Force you can give five no more than that but you know when I see nice tight ones and if you can make it an acronym even better because now I'll really remember it um and I have something you know and I sort of say that half factiously but it it lets you go okay this is right Pride accountability character Killer Instinct like that says so many things right there like Killer Instinct okay on game day you don't want to be across the line for me because you're go like it's going to hurt I'm going to make it painful for you you know but at the same time character tells me like but I'm a good person just just not for these two hours these four quarters you know it's a different story um you know the pride in community the accountability like it's it's my 20 yards do my job it's so many things wrapped up so man I I love it is there you brought up the Patriots is there another organization you feel that that is a a good role model for culture like in in Jeff Cho's library of teams and organizations and again Stone water is obviously a given so we'll put that one off the table um don't want to be too self-aggrandizing but outside of stonewater and the Patriots that well I think you know this that the All Blacks of New Zealand man Legacy it's my favorite book and uh you know I mean I've I have literally summarized it and and used it as a as a um a part of my curriculum for for many years now and so um I feel like if you do the homework and you realize like these are the New York Yankees of International Rugby and you know they they took this this nose dive and uh and then really the book is about the journey that that led them back to prominence and the changes the tough decisions that had to be made the changes that were made how they became more collaborative um and uh you know really because the idea the really the the journey in the book is about a player-led organization right and and I know that was really what I tried to create at Montana State and what we push for every day getting to that at Texas and that's the journey that we're starting here at Nevada um you know when you went in the locker room first and when those guys are taking ownership and control over things it makes your job and your life so much easier and I'll know when we got to that point where I'm not having to the balance Chris Peterson used to say this a lot he talked about the balance between how much time you spend teaching and coaching and how much time you spend as a disciplinarian that equates to your success so you gotta get that right you know if you spend all this time up here on discipline and only this much time on coaching and teaching you're not GNA have a lot of success well if those guys are policing themselves and handling all their business and you're spending this much time teaching and coaching and hardly anytime on discipline you're going to have a lot of success and that probably carries over to any organization 100% yeah when when it's self- policing absolutely yeah I still remember two quotes because you gave me Legacy I hadn't read it until I think 2017 uh you gave me put a note in the cover but two quotes I remember from it were okay number one just a con it's a concept not a quote but sweeping the sheds right the leaders the people at top the organization can you know they're seen and and they're they're seen in in the trenches with the people doesn't mean that's where they spend all their time but we're not too good to do the base tasks and then the other piece was you know find find something worth dying for and pour your life into it you know find your passion find your why the brothers and sisters to your left and right you know whether it's on a team or a business or a unit and and just go hold nothing back we got one life we don't know how long it is just full send uh people I've seen you unlock that whether they're 32ye old school administrators that pivot into football or you know Pas and Boseman who are parents of eight that go to med school is's a 41y old but like you get one story right the hell out of it no one wants to read a boring book make yours well worth it or meaningful um yeah it's so good man yeah we could we could spend the next 10 hours on culture and would still have stuff to cover but that you I like how you don't just talk about it but you have great structure uh to communicate again that clear concise repetitive even in how you talk about culture I'm gonna steal it package it sell it as Stone water make jilli here and then I think our first you know when we're partnered up doing this leadership thing our first trip in the G4 we should go to uh New Zealand and meet the All Blacks and say agre we we we probably I know I definitely sold a few books for them and because I bought a bunch of them I kind of try to give them away as much as possible just to to one thing on the sweep the sheds you know you talk about that and that was so that's there's a huge mural now in our locker room as you walk out it says sweep the sheds and there's a janitor you you know sweeping sweeping a floor and it uh but the but the gist behind that was obviously nobody takes care of the all blocks the all blocks take care of themselves resonates that's that goes back to that accountability piece owning your 20 square feet but how we become that player-led program and then one of my favorite chapters I thought you were going to reference it actually was it's it's I'm gonna paraphrase it it's no jerks right yeah and that's where uh I think they word though yeah I think it's a different word and uh but uh but basically that's the idea of selecting on character first right right and so that's what I love about that book I mean it's just like okay this is this for me this is this for me this is this for me I can just draw so many parallels and uh and it's gold so but I mean to your point on both leadership and culture it gives you a structure right are there other great things out there you know Edgar shine and these different academics to talk about culture all good but that all blacks one is so tangible concrete and it's such a great story that we can retain it again I've read I don't know how many Harvard Business Review articles on culture don't remember them but I remember the no the no and I remember uh sweep the sheds and find something worth you know dying for and pour your life into it um awesome so talking about culture and Leadership and experiences I'm gonna ask you to go back you know five years Yellowstone the lead 406 you know back back when you know Proto Stone water organization uh you were on one of the first first trips we went on and I'm just curious you know do you have any memories from that any takeaways from that experience other than you had to leave in like the last two hours because of covid stuff happening but outside of that I you know I would say this I think that the coll when you get leaders together and you can collaborate there's there's nothing more valuable than hearing somebody else's either sh struggles that you share with them because then you start to you start to extrapolate ex opportunities or or or ways that you can deal with those struggles and I felt like it was interesting it didn't matter if it was you know maratus that's you know got a Fortune 500 company that basically runs 90% of the NCAA now I mean this guy's got a you know this going on or these former military people or you know a a CEO doing a startup or whatever the case may be everybody had similar challenges really in their leadership journey and I thought that was super valuable to be able to to recognize that and uh the other thing was so interesting was seeing how other you know when put into uncomfortable situations how these Alphas responded differently which was really fascinating and I what was interesting remember I kind of pulled back I remember because I was right there beside you going yeah I'm not doing that and and uh well not it wasn't even that I was like you know follow the game Trail and we're there but uh um yeah I tell you what I thought that was one of the more valuable experiences for me especially I think it would have been fascinating to do that when I was in my 20s or 30s and then come back do it again when I was 50 you know just to to see the balance of like the growth that you have because I'm sure that you see that when you look at young leaders that are go-getters and they're alphas and they're doing all this and then you got these old dogs that you know they kind of you know all right I've been there done that um but I I I gained a ton from that experience not just the um the camaraderie uh but also you know just watching and learning other from other people and the debrief that you sent out was gold man I mean it was like you know I learned as much from what you had to say about John or about about Zack as I did what you had to say about me and uh and I thought that was super valuable because we did the peers and we kind of critiqued one another and uh there was a ton of value where else are you gon to get that kind of honesty like you know Danny had no no skin in the game with with Zach maratus I mean what the heck you know so he's gonna say what he really thinks about well nobody else in that organization is probably going to be 100% transparent with the CEO and so I thought that was tremendously valuable no that that's that's why you brought up a couple things it's funny I got the picture behind me and Emil who runs Yellowstone wild who was our guide for that saw a podcast saw that picture and he's like hey is that that picture from that trip in Montana um so yeah for people who are like what are you guys talking about it was it was actually a trip uh behind us right there um when you say like talking to other leaders and seeing like oh so you're struggling with this same thing in this Fortune 500 company or this Special Operations Community or this standup or this leader ERS ship development company out in Fargo uh that's one thing I The more I've done this the more I've seen like we all Think We're Alone we're all think like man I'm all I'm all left up like man I'm I'm I'm an impostor I whatever it is and I have the same conversation over and over with different leaders and you're like yeah I can't believe I'm telling you this but blah and I go yeah welcome welcome to the human race you know I'm right there with you they're like well yeah you know I'm paying you you got to say that I'm like no first off I'm dead serious second L like the you're the third leader I've talked to today that is struggling with this you know difficult conversation with someone that you know you got to make a hard call and you're nauseous about it you'll feel so good when it's done let's walk through it but you're not alone and so I think yeah the lead 406 piece is so good when people are people are uh just lay it out there and yeah there's no skin in the game you're not going to fire me when I tell you like hey man you're a little over the top or you're a little too reserved you got to step up and share some of your good ideas so love it um real quick you you term as you come into Nevada you know two and 10 for the past two years you're not doing a rebuild you're calling it a launch what's the you know I think I think words matter Bruce uh Bruce Lee calls it spelling he goes you're doing spells with your words he's like so words matter um why launch versus rebuild I'm curious on that because I know you're intentional about it yeah I think the connotation is very different I mean I think that you know when you think about a rebuild it's a step-by-step process which certainly what we're doing is a step-by-step process but I think there also the implication that it takes time right well nobody has time in our industry anymore um you know and and ultimately uh I think the idea of a launch is to hey we're taking off and and I think it really resonated honestly in recruiting and um that kids were fired up about that you know my my daughter's funny I mean I don't even know what a hard so she's like oh yeah when you guys beat SMU you can text hard launch out there and I'm like I don't know what that means but that means we did a really good launch you know I Google it on Urban Dictionary before you put it in the socials I'm just gonna say that out there if it's coming from a 20 but I think that that's that was you know as far as being intentional that was the purpose was to create the the vision for I mean nobody here at the University of Nevada they didn't make a coaching change after two seasons because you know they wanted to get the same result they want us they want to know that there's a purpose behind what we're doing that's going to be different and that idea of a launch definitely I think created that energy that we wanted and and so far it's um a lot of people kind of grabbed onto that I I really like and you know I'm thinking like launch and you know it's like off I'm just looking at the resources and the focus and the intensity and putting everything in that tank to like what can we get out of this and you know been honored to be a small part of that but like excited to see we had an early conversation like how can we do what we've done in previous places but do it quicker and and that's the challenge so we'll you know we'll get some feedback here in a few months for sure but excited to see where it goes uh you talked about Legacy anything else out there for for for leaders who are like man your your style resonates with me what what resources or books you know you recommend I check out and read anything like what's on your go-to yeah so let me let me look around the room here you know I'll tell you one that I do like that's a little dark is uh is uh Relentless by Tim Grover okay it really talks a lot about kind of this the different personalities especially in a competitive environment and uh I and I I hate I don't love it because it does tend to label people a little bit and you and as you read it you'll start to walk around and go yeah that guy's a cooler and that guy's a cleaner and whatever but I do think there's some really good stuff in there because it makes you examine some of the decisions that you make and why you make them when you get into ultra competitive situations and um so I I that's a book that I I lean on here and there um you know the the probably the other one that and this is going to sound funny but there's a book called persuasion that has been very very influential for me in recruiting uh and it's the idea of basically planting an idea in somebody's brain before you want them to do what you want them to do and then letting then when you present the idea to them they're already open to it and uh I found this is like military leadership 101 let them think it's their idea and they'll do it way better that's right yeah love it and then kind of a daily uh um you know you've given me the daily stoic and that's kind of like almost a daily meditation which is really I think it's quick it's easy it kind of centers you a little bit but another one like that's called the champ mind and there's some uh there's a lot of parables in it and there easy quick stories that are pretty good um so there's a couple there's a couple of my go-tos I'll tell you the easiest one ever like if you want like the most basic and I've used this since I was a high school teacher and coach in the 1990s and it's called the team captains leadership manual and it's it's like the most it's got the curriculum built into it it's like a workbook within a book and you can just kind of take it chapter by chapter and it's it's the same stuff that every other book's going to talk about about it's just very watered down and I use that as a baseline curriculum for a lot of my like in my in my freshman transition type of groups I use that a lot too and that's always been really good I love it man so relentless from Tim Grover on why we do what we do in intensely competitive situations persuasion how to get you to do what I want you to do without know you knowing that I want you to do it that's right yeah Champions mind is the daily stoic plus one with some Parables and then team Captain's leadership manual is leadership for 5y olds which like I have seven habits of highly effective people up here but I like reading the one for elementary school students even better because it's got pictures um and it's easier to retain all right man hey last question is you're you know you've been out in Reno now for five months and some change maybe right around five months uh you're you're going through the launch you're pouring all the the fuel and whatever makes spaceships go up into space into that machine uh you're you're loading the crew you're you're getting her ready what are you learning in all this man what are you taking from this like right now May 7th what's like Jeff's like pause reflection like yeah biggest takeaway you better have great people around you man you know um especially in this situation when you know like one of the analogies there's a another book but not to quote it but this book called adversity Advantage one of the analogies they use in this this is like hey if you're going on a Day hike you got to take your backpack and a water bottle if you're climbing climbing Everest you need a you need a great team you know you know Sherpas and helicopters and base camp and resources and all this stuff and you know we're trying to kind of climb Everest here I mean we're trying to turn a program around that's been on The Struggle Bus for a little bit and um you know I think that's the most important thing is like when you you know look for people that can accentuate accentuate the things that you do well but also fill in the blanks of the things that you don't do well and uh good people there's no there's no substitute for it man and so um that's that's probably been the biggest takeaway and and then the other thing is man as a leader you're not gonna fix every problem every day you know like there's so we have a lot of holes in the dyes here I only got 10 fingers right I can't plug them all at once and uh I think having the ability to kind of to kind of compartmentalize things on a daily basis and and say even if it's over A month's time I'm gonna attack this problem and we're going to address it we're going to get this thing in a good place and then I'm going to move on to the next one because uh while you do have to the juggling act a little bit um I think especially on the lwh hanging fruit things if you can show your organization that you're doing tangible things to make them better on a daily basis that's going to resonate throughout your locker room or your boardroom or wherever your you know your office space and uh people will recognize yeah you know like I have kids come into me and say yeah man I know you got a toaster for us for the fueling station that's awesome we got a digital clock in the locker room like these are easy things that I can go down to Target and get yeah but they notice them Stone water this podcast is not sponsored by by Target for the record Jeff mentioned um yeah yeah I think I think there's so I I love there's two sides of that or there's actually three things about that that jump out is number one just accepting like I have limits and you got to have priorities you know organizationally that's one of the aspects all including culture is hey priorities how do we allocate limited time and resources because we're all limited to some capacity so what's what's the most important you you've emphasized people and character over and over so I go I know Jeff in the hunt for good bodies and other things will come afterwards but then I also like how you're like but do the little tangible things so your team recognize is like hey I hear you I see you again it's you know it's kind of my third leadership thing it's like listen it's implied that you'll listen and then act when it makes sense um and then being able to just give yourself Grace and have boundaries like you know what at at 5:30 tonight or whenever whenever you close your office door it's like I put my a husband hat on and and my dad hat and my just me hat and let me just let it go because it's going to be there tomorrow and I can re attack and I think a lot of leaders really struggle with that you know and you know now their sleep sucks and they're not working out they're not doing the things are necessary because they're like I got to do it all which makes it harder to do to do anything so I I love it man and yeah uh great people around you I don't think anyone will argue with you on that and it's it's not a Day hike you're not even I'd say you're not even just climbing Everest you're trying to climb Everest without O2 and set a record for it uh so it better be a good freaking team and a lot of prep and you know I'm honored to be again a small part of it um man Jeff this has been so good and like I said we could go on for a long time but I won't I just sincerely want to say thank you so much for sharing your time uh those resources those comments on leadership culture the examples you had so so awesome so appreciate the heck out of you likewise man I appreciate our friendship and our partnership and I'll see you in Reno in a couple weeks all right sounds good yeah we we'll tea up this launch thing so awesome Jeff thank