Israel at War: A Conversation with Meir Finkel | Battlegrounds w/ H.R. McMaster

America and other free and open societies face crucial challenges and opportunities abroad that affect security and prosperity at home this is a series of conversations with guests who bring deep understanding of today's Battlegrounds and creative ideas about how to compete overcome challenges capitalize on opportunities and secure a better future I am H aricm this is [Music] Battlegrounds on today's episode of Battlegrounds our focus is on Israel and the war in Gaza Our Guest is Brigadier General Reserve mayor fle of the Israel Defense Forces a soldier scholar who holds three phds fle is the head of research for the doo Center for interdisciplinary military studies a think tank designed to further the success of the IDF and its military and political strategies vle served for over 20 years in the IDF armored Corps including as the commander of the 847 armored Brigade during the second Lebanon war he also headed the idf's ground forces doctrin and concept Development Department for 7 years on October 7th 2023 Hamas terrorists conducted mass murder attacks against Israel which included heinous acts of infan side rape torture and kidnapping Hamas shares Iran's professed intention to destroy Israel and kill all the Jews Iran helped Hamas build its terrorist infrastructure increase its capabilities and plan and prepare its assault Israel launched military operations against Hamas and Gaza on October 27th 2023 since then violence has intensified in the West Bank and along Israel's northern border as Iranians supported Lebanese he has launched multiple attacks causing 60,000 Israelis to evacuate the Border region Israel has intensified security operations in the West Bank returned fire against Hezbollah and conducted strikes in Syria against Iranian proxies the conflict has spread across the region as Iranian proxies in Iraq Yemen and Syria have targeted us personnel and Facilities as well as international shipping in the Bob al-mandab on January 28th 2024 three American soldiers were killed in a border Outpost in Jordan us retaliation included killing the leader of K Hezbollah in Baghdad on February 7th on April 1st 2024 Israel attacked Iranian Islamic revolutionary guards Personnel in what Iran claims was a consulate in Damascus killing 13 on April 13th Iran conducted an unprecedented massive missile and drone attack against Israel from Iranian territory the US Allied Nations and Israel def defeated the attack destroying 99% of the 150 missiles and 170 drones launched on April 18th Israel retaliated using missile strikes to damage an Iranian Air Base in Isfahan an Israeli raid in the densely populated newat refugee camp on June 8th freed four of the remaining 120 hostages still in captivity which include five Americans we speak with General finle as the IDF closes in on Hamas leadership in Rafa and calls mount for Israel to Halt the offensive and make greater efforts to minimize civilian casualties and ensure Palestinian access to humanitarian assistance Hamas has rejected recent calls for a ceasefire and has refused to release the hostages as it continues to use the Palestinian population as human Shields Hamas leader yahia sinir who is still at large in Gaza described October 7th as just a rehearsal and Palestinian civilian casual as necessary sacrifices we welcome General finle back to Battlegrounds to analyze the Israeli campaign to destroy Hamas and Gaza the broader regional conflict and how the wars in the Middle East might evolve in the coming months and [Music] years General mayfl is great to see you welcome back to Battlegrounds thank you so much for joining us thank you for having me General Reserve in reserve I you're a full General in my heart you know so so it's it's great it's great to see you and and uh obviously we're all send our best to you and and your family which I know has been affected in a profound way by by this war you know and I thought the best way to start is the way that we learned how to start when we were lieutenants right to start with the Enemy and could you maybe tell our viewers a little bit about the Hamas enemy I mean Israel has many related enemies uh but but what were what was SAS trying to achieve with these horrific uh you criminal attacks on October 7th what did they want out of that operation and maybe talk a little bit about the organization itself its Charter and what it what his overall mission is so Hamas it's the combination of a religious entity which belong to the Muslim Brothers which is I want elaborate about this part but this is a kind of a I would say not the most extreme but somewhere in between between the moderate and extreme Islamic agendas which we have a variety of and specifically in in our case they took over Gaza Strip after we um disengage from Gaza in 2005 a year later later they we gave Gaza to the Palestinian Authority to remind our audience in a kind agreement and Hamas practically ER killed Palestinian Authority officials and took over and since then immediately following this decapitation of of Palestinian Authority government there they be began shooting Rockets Mortals short range missiles on Israel and since then and and I would add and I would ad there there also diverted tens of billions of dollars of assistance over those years you know in into away from the Palestinian population and into the terrorist infrastructure that they began to use for these attacks yes they they practically it was it was understood ER as as early as 20 8 that Hamas way is not to build a new state in Gaza after we disengaged after many years man from 67 2005 and in as early as 2008 we understood it they are building the the division Commander then called it they are building an an a a Commando ER division Iranian Commando division in Gaza okay and it from the military point of view It's a combination of of a of rockets on Israel rare which is in any terminology terrorism against civilians and ability to enter Israel through tunnels and later on we'll talk about it above the ground H through the sea with they've got their Navy Naval Commando Navy seeds through the air and they we between 2005 2006 and October 7th 2023 they um they buil the the their army we had few uh rounds of limited War confrontations with them okay 208 2012 2014 2021 each time we tried un under then you during their very understood political decisions not to conquer Gaza again right these were essentially extended raids into Gaza to to to U reduce the terrorist infrastructure and their capability and they all each of them followed pretty significant rocket attacks coming out of Gaza we which r a long the time ER with masses and and with range the last one in in in 2021 was a I was sitting in my office in near Tel Aviv and getting Rockets from Gaza so the range grew all the time the amount of of missiles grew on the time it was always a combination of rockets on our civilians and actions on the border and the major issue is is that a along those two decades almost two decades the the the the concept basic strategic and political concept was that we we have to learn to live with this growing monster right we hit it each time that we can but we don't want to get inside again and Rule Gaza after we did it from 67 to 200 2005 and this this thinking which looks fine along the ears but looks wrong now yeah kind of limited limited our military thinking because as you said we we we we we hope that the civilian and economical part of their development their development that they would H this was there was this idea that that Hamas really did want a better life for Palestinians so you had the you had the you know the the work visas or or the ability for Palestinian workers to come in there was an idea that you know that over time Hamas could evolve into less of a terrorist organization more of a political movement right but this was all a pipe dream it was a pipe dream and I think there were some too mayor you know who thought that Hamas could be a balance to the Palestinian Authority which was wrongheaded so these were all as it turns out as you mentioned in retrospect you know that was a bad assessment right but you know uh Zachary Shore who's I think somebody you're familiar with too he wrote a great book a sense of the enemy in this book he said that you have to be able to see not just patterns but especially pattern breaks and I guess I think what we saw on October 7th was a pattern break but could you place that pattern break in context of what is hamas's overall objective why does the organization exist what do they want to achieve the Hamas we thought that they are you know in a slow process of developing from a terrorist organization into a semi State this is was the I think the Israeli way of thinking and and the world okay and that's the reason that we try to you know as you said to to give a at least economic you know Horizon through through through all kind of issues including the katarian money etc etc but Hamas apparently was still holding very tightly the idea of a terrorist organization that wants to to eliminate Israel and go back to the places that many gazans left in 48 and fled from Rafa and and and Israeli cities today and they still held this idea of throwing us us out of of Israel we we failed at understanding that the basic ideas are are still there and are and and and and we fail to understand that although we s we knew that a lot of the the resources that they get are spent on on building and you know the the the amazingly huge and complex underground facilities I would say the what is called the metro in Israel but we thought that that they will balance between the you know civilian and Military party and the they didn't sinir and so did your International organizations right who and and and countries who were donors who wanted that money to go to the Palestinian people but you know everything everything in Gaza is controlled by Hamas we talk about hospitals we talk about schools we talk about a police a police force but these are not normal hospitals and schools and police forces there there are some good people in there there's some good Educators in there there's some good doctors in there but the entire infrastructure has been turned toward hamas's overall purpose right I mean yes yes yes yes and it's it's you can see it until now because because our soldiers now when they enter hamas's Apartments you know Fighters apartment they see the the bags of humanitarian Aid in they don't spread it within the population it's a kind of a it's it's a unique I I I won't say it's I don't know if it's Unique I have to think about it but it's May it's not unique when we fought al-Qaeda in Iraq right we were we were trying they took they took over a whole city much different situation but very similar tactics they control all the aid we tried to get to the civilian population in this city was diverted to al-qaeda's purpose the hospital was used mainly to murder people who were not supportive of al-Qaeda you know the the schools were shut down and turned into education for you know brainwashing or classes on how to conduct kidnapping and murder put an ID so I think what happens is good-hearted people good-hearted people want to alleviate the suffering of of the people of the in this case the Palestinians in Gaza but don't realize that a precondition for improving the the population's lives is to destroy the terrorists who are actually ultimately responsible for the suffering of the people yes yeah the the the the political organization is a terrorist organization that hold in the throat the whole population and of course the population is is a is a you know you cannot really it's a real problem to explain usually and maybe you know it's a kind of common mistake that we separate between the Hamas organization and the population which support it it's a you know the Hamas operatives and and the and those who build the infrastructure and but but yes they they're terrorizing their all their own population during peace time and during war time and they are holding the the the humanitarian aid from the population and this is something that you know this is first this is the fact and second it's almost impossible to to explain this to to the world well and one of the key one of the key mechanisms right one of the key mechanisms for Hamas is is to keep people destitute while as we know they're lead ERS live in these big Villas on on the on on the beach right or they live in festar hotels in in Doha yes but their people are suffering horribly because they want them to suffer so they can direct their anger at others at Israel yes and I must say but but without you know going to to to the to the North theala in Lebanon with its you know arms are are it's not it's not similar but there is a similarity in in that that the is the strongest organization in with its force is enforcing his will on the whole Lebanese population if somebody today in Gaza said I'd like to form a political opposition against Hamas because I think the Palestinian people here need an alternative how long do you think he would live mayor I mean he'd be shot immediately it it won't we are trying this on the north on the northern part of Gaza we are trying it's in the papers we are trying to eleviate the know the heads of kulas in the north that that give them the aid so they will give it to the to to the population to to replace Hamas Hamas is killing them you know we cannot protect them to put the Israeli bodyguards to to those hamula heads and practically they are killing them so they are terrorizing them and I don't you know the the the the issue is very sad because I I'm not sure that we can create any kind of a substitution to Hamas because we tried it in 2005 when we disengage and gave GAA to the Palestinian Authority the Palestinian Authority was too weak against Kamas in 2005 and 2006 okay nobody I think in Gaza will you know rise in his head and say I'm opposing Kamas and give me he will be killed immediately it's the same I must say in the northern cities of Judea in Samaria the Palestinian Authority with its police and the Small Arms is not can can is not succeeding in fighting Hamas operatives and Islamic Jihad operatives and that's the reason we are getting inside again and again and to kill them because the Palestinian Authority policeman too weak for that it's it's a we will have to do it for we are doing it for decades and we will practically I think we'll have to continue to do it because there's no other I see this is what I don't want to get into a high level political discussion but this is a really important point there are those who and you know me included lots of people who are lamenting the fact that an enduring peace seems much more far away distant a distant dream than ever because it's hard to imagine right the the any kind of a two-state solution or Israel being comfortable with any kind of a two-state solution because of the example of post 2005 in Gaza because of what's happening in the West Bank and lesson of October 7th which is you cannot allow a a a terrorist governed entity to be on your border and to be able to commit those kind of horrific attacks so I see mayor a prec condition to any kind of enduring peace the destruction of Hamas and and an alternative political entity taking over who could you know actually entertain a two-state solution Hamas in its Charter is determined to destroy Israel and kill all the Jews that doesn't sound like they're willing to entertain a two-state solution to me so I just think what is missing in the public understanding is how the destruction the defeat of enduring de feat of these groups is a precondition to any kind of enduring Peace So what I'd like to what I'd like to ask you is you know is there a path forward to that I mean I as you mentioned there have to be Palestinians with guns who are stronger than a group like Hamas for that to be for any kind of a political entity to emerge or for the suffering of the Palestinian people to end yes I agree or something with which I cannot see how it's being you know brought up but but practically other Arabs for moderate state that will take a kind you know you know kind of responsibility right there has to be a peace enforcement mechanism not not a weak not a weak unifil like the like the UN force in southern Lebanon that has no real fighting capability no mandate No Authority right there has to be a real I I agree I I I agree but then want to do it nobody wants to do it mayor yes exactly so so at the end if there are no heads of hamula can stand up and say okay we will replace yeah no Palestinian Authority is strong enough no outer combination of Arabic moderate Arabic States kind of policing we will have to fight there until I you know I don't see I'll tell you this is this is not analogous this is only just analogous at a very high level of generality but you had you have ha you have Haiti in chaos and and really it was it was it's a it's a you know it's a an African Force that's going there but there has to be some kind of force in place for this suffering to end I I agree I agree before that I I want to add another thing with and this is the the humanitarian organiz organization in unra which is practically I think you know I'm not you know I'm serving in the military so I I can't talk about I'll say it it's compromised it's a compromised organization it's like is sustaining the refugee problem the problem major problem as I see it is that you know when when people fled in in in 48 okay yes yeah for from Palestine after the war after the initiated initiated against the Jews in 1948 yes yes because yes we and then you you delivered an unexpected defeat against them the many many of those populations were displaced by the by the Arab forces and under the belief under the belief that uh that that they would then return to those okay but there's a whole history there but go ahead yes and then there are still refugees in in Gaza in in Jordan in Syria and in Lebanon still refugees after you know from 48 75 76 years and this is an issue which is which is tied to the idea of the right of return which is tied exactly other other ideas right so this is they're a the same there we know what the problems are to get to a two-state solution we know what they are the question is are they insurmountable I mean they might be I hope they're not but they might be insurmountable I mean but in in the meantime what we need is we need a better life for the Palestinian people we need to end the suffering and we need to ensure that that Israelis are never again subjected to the kind of horrific attacks of October 7th that's kind of the near-term goals as I see it mayor and and what I'd like to ask you is is is you know there's a lot there's a lot more going on I mean I want to talk about the war itself in Gaza but I'd like to help ask you to help us place the war in Gaza in a broad perspective you've already mentioned Southern Lebanon and Hezbollah we' you've already mentioned the West Bank and the degree to which P Palestinian Islamic Jihad and and uh and Hamas are growing in strength there we haven't yet talked about the the Iranian proxy Army that is forming on your Border in Syria or the use of more distant proxy forces in Yemen and even Iraq uh for attacks against Israel and we haven't talked about what the return address is for all of this which is Iran uh which had made an unprecedented attack against Israel with hundreds of of missiles and drones from its own territory so I'm G to ask you can you place this war in Gaza in the broader perspective of all of Iran's proxies what are they trying to achieve and how does the Gaza operation now War fit in to the four decade plus long uh war against against Israel by these various groups so you covered you listed all the enemies that we are fighting currently and probably a lot of of the audience is not aware of because you know it's kind of you know what's going on in in in our northern border it's another War a limited kind of War but with about 60,000 civilians that were evacuated and still not there a lot of villages ruined we are fighting you know killed around I think until now 500ah operative it's a limited War and the issue is this is is that we I think we we were thinking about what we called in Israeli military terms a multi- Arena War okay led by Iran but I think that in our military thought we we we we thought that they will try to coordinate it of course okay with by Iran which is leading it and H sending Munitions from AAR from not from Iran we thought that they won't interfere directly but surely from Syria and Iraq because we we've got before the war already all kinds of drones and missiles from there and the combination of what we call the the first Circle hamasa and the internal Circle which is the the the Hamas and the Islamic Jihad in in Judea and Samaria and also maybe what we have in 200 2 221 Israeli Arabs maybe some of them so we we we we thought about this idea and practically I think that the reality was moving much more was you know it's it's it's a fast forward we we thought it will um become a reality within new the next few years and we were beginning to prepare for this may I I might be wrong about this but I think Ayatollah hame in tran you know he's in his late 80s now I think he was looking at his to-do list right and at the top of his to-do list is destroy Israel and I think he may have thought this is the right time to do it because of political divisions in Israel because of maybe the US Israel relationship because of the degree to which the United States was having difficulty sustaining support for the ukrainians all of this I think in his mind he thought this time to do it what do you think I agree I think there are three time time time time frames that we can talk about the the first one is the longterm meaning that we are we have we have the the our time and our plan is to destroy destroy Israel until two 202 I don't remember 2040 there somewhere in Teran I think counting down I don't I don't remember 2040 but I think like that so they were preparing for for elimination of Israel in in the long R second the second time frame I think was the the the something that that happened because of of few issues and that the war in in in Ukraine when they began to think as a global power I mean Iran okay we are aiding the Russians we are we are much stronger than than we thought we we this our our viewers this is the provision of Shahed drones missiles other capabilities from Iran to Russia yeah it's amazing for them to be then you know they are a global actor so I think that's enforc their and hey hey mayor just quickly on this I don't think it a coincidence or or just really Adept Russian propaganda that immediately after October 7th the Russians helped Iran in this on this battle of perception I agree invited the hamash leadership to Moscow right un unbelievable uh in terms of yes I agree but I think that what was um in the time frames the big the big idea was to destroy Israel in the future now is the war in in Ukraine and and what what's going on in the Israeli society and etc etc made it kind of they they began to so maybe we can do it earlier than we thought and I want to add the Biden Administration relieved sanctions on Iran that resulted in the transfer of maybe about 80 billion dollar into Iran's coffers at the same time maybe that but the third Factor beside the war in Ukraine and the situation in Israel was that it seems that the American are withdrawing from the from the area I think those three issues was was you know making the pace of their thinking you know from the far future to the near future what what what sin thought and this is the third time sinir is the military commander of Hamas who was probably hiding in a tunnel in Rafa at the moment go ahead mayor yes Rafa ever but yes and he he thought well maybe he he was mistaken on thinking hey we we coordinated this and we should prepare it now and that so within those three time frames they thought okay we are we are getting near because the the global situation and internal and he thought it's now it's now we we we we can do it now and I think that he thought that theala will enter because they coordinated and and and Iran will ENT enter the war but he misunderstood the the the coordination so so he began it now the the war to for the destruction of Israel fortunately theah was not prepared coordinated on tactical on operation level but still on the Strategic level on the Long View and same is as Iran but then we got to the situation that we are now in that we are fighting mly Hamas but still we are have a fight in the North in another four five Arenas that that you listed because they entered this and we are now in a kind of attrition War of Attrition in all fronts yeah which is very demanding for in all you know asons from the national level to the Tactical level and and it's and is demanding on the international front in in the re of public opinion which we want to talk more yes yes yes but mayor here here's what I'd like to ask you then I want to come back to Gaza because I think our viewers would like to hear your assessment of the military campaign may maybe a little bit about how it evolved where it is but what's what's next what's happening there whatever you can talk about I know you can't talk about any any details but what I want to talk about first is the big lesson of October 7th is you cannot allow a terrorist organization to be on your border with these kinds of capabilities that lesson applies to Southern Lebanon and to Hezbollah there's a lot of talk and actually we talked about this months ago I can probably say now uh you know about the the the very high likelihood of the IDF feeling and and and Israel leadership that a ground operation into Southern Lebanon is essential to eliminate Hezbollah infrastructure as a precondition for uring security and for bringing back the 60 to 80,000 displaced Israelis uh from uh from uh Northern Israel can you talk to us a little bit about what is the nature of the discussion first of all you are to totally right we we understand that we cannot live with the kind of threat on our borders okay this is not acceptable so so the situation in the north is is is can can develop into two two lines one of them is theah will say okay and the at the end of the day I want I don't want to go to a to full war with Israel okay from some reason and I understand that I am I am there is the UN resolution after second Lebanon war you know 1701 that restrict me from being on the Israeli border which ialah had agreed to this is the buffer zone uh you know behind a certain line that they have to pull back yes and I violated it so I will go back and in in this case if I think he will go back and the Americans and the French will give guarantee there will be much stronger um Lebanese aramy maybe you know I've seen that see European more European countries are donating to the Lebanese Army now you have also big diplomatic effort I know that's a contentious situation but go ahead I mean okay so so this is this is one option this the next option is to do what we did four times in our history for our audience in for and I wrote about it in it was published in English Okay we ined 14 villages in Lebanon in 48 and we gave them back only after half a year after a kind of agreement okay in 48 and then we conquered South South Lebanon in 78 in thean operation until thean and then in 82 first Lebanon war and then in 2006 the next time we are entering Lebanon I think we will have to create a sterile Zone within at least at least 10 kilm is nobody returning then there forever something like this I will be very you know brutally with what I'm saying because there will be no six time six event six event number six in which along our history that our Villages and I live 5 kilometers from the border will be under threat of of of forces waving from the other side of the board this is unacceptable and if there will be no solid diplomatic solution We Will Conquer South Lebanon and we will destroy everything I hope everything there and nobody will get there because we cannot stand again this situation and we learn it's it's important for our viewers to note that the most the most recent Israeli uh casualty suffered were from including anti-tank weapons that were fired within visual line of sight uh directly across the border so there are H hundreds of of of ruined houses along our northern border okay H the there there are lots of villages and two cities what not cities Big Towns K and schom who are not returning back until now it's we cannot accept this situation at the end of the war or at the end of the conflict if there will be no war but we want we won't agree I think the government and I as a military you know practitioner and theorist I don't think that we can live with with something which is less than 10 20 kilometers of area clean without Anya operative because as you said we learned from what happened in the South we learned from what we did in the north and we will have create totally new condition in the norm so for our viewers what what just want to point out is this this war is a multi-front war as we mentioned at the beginning and it's a war that I I think May is going to go on for years I mean I just don't see how it's going to be resolved uh in the near term uh there's a lot more we could do maybe I think to expedite the end of the war from an international perspective by doubling down on our support for Israel by really focusing as as as a b demonstration is on trying to get a peace enforcement force of some kind you know ready for for a Gaza operation but I think you know really this war continues until we act like we know what the return address is which is Iran and what we haven't done is really impose any cost on rent the Iranians mayor I believe are willing to expend every Arab and Palestinian life to destroy Israel and and it is a cynical horrible strategy that they're pursuing and you know they get away with it because we keep talking about deescalation and managing the war and and instead of imposing costs on Iran so mayor what's your vision of of what happens with Iran who we know is accelerating uh the course toward a nuclear weapon which uh which I know Israel will not tolerate under the bean Doctrine H how do you see I mean do you have in your mind an end a vision of the end of this conflict uh and unless we deal with uh with without dealing directly with Iran at some point the only option is the regime change in Iran which I don't see how it happened but you know long day the many lowest turnout ever in their elections that just happened for example people are very discontent there but of course as you know for a totalitarian regime like theirs this Theocratic dictatorship you don't have to be strong you just have to be stronger than any organized opposition right and they're great at repressing their yeah yeah and it's in this in this sense it's it's similar to Hamas in in Gaza you know it's the government is terrorizing it civilians yeah this is the it's hard to perceive it but but that's practically what what's going on in Iran like like and it's terrorizing and it's brainwashing and indoctrinating it's the whole it's the whole cycle of of ignorance which leads to to hatred which which is used to justify violence you know but you are you you are right in saying that that Iran is the head of of the octopus as we call it or whatever and unless it is badly harmed or or changes it its mind it won't over now you try to change it with sanctions I I I'm I'm not in the details of what worked and what didn't exactly along the ears of sanctions there is the military threat which is Israel can do you know then can impose harm on on on a military infrastructure in Iran but we've got our limitations okay and we need in order to do so it we need that the West will will be and especially the Americans will be part of the issue we can do what we can do again the the nuclear but but it's still it's a huge country and it's quite far etc etc so it must must be a you know International effort and U so sanctions a military milit war war against Iran which will be you know we will be I don't know how to phrase it okay maybe we will have to do it and we'll hope that the rest will follow I don't know yeah we certainly need a more Resolute response so that Iran recognizes that they that they'll suffer severe consequences you know if they continue yes to to to use these proxies uh in an effort to push the United States out of the region which is what they want that's step a uh so they can pursue step B which is the destruction of Israel but hey mayor I want to bring you back down back down into the back down into Gaza for a moment and maybe drawing on your books uh on flexibility on agility assess the assess the Israeli campaign so far and maybe maybe summarize for our viewers you know what remains to to to what what what what remains in the operation I know that there are operations going on simultaneously in in Northern Gaza in conun we just saw the the the liberation of of hostages in in a dense uh dense urban area uh and then and then then also uh in Rafa where we think uh where we're at least from those of us who are reading just from the outside here that there that there's the most critical command and control and Leadership infrastructure uh for uh for Hamas but can you explain the campaign to date and then and then really what's next yes the campaign has practically I think maybe four faces but I I'll put aside the the initial you know immediate response by by by air power which I think it was quite short between the sth and the 20th of October I think when we or something I don't remember exactly when we began the maneuver we did something that we thought that will never happen as we spoke in the beginning that we after we disengage from Gaza ruling it for for decades we will have to conquer Gaza and practically it was in three in three stages ER and and this relates to our know our adaptation and the enemy I think surpris I don't think that sinir and kamad saw that we will get inside the the you know this one million civilian city with the huge underground infrastructure and we get inside I I think they didn't believe it they so that we do something in the periphery Etc and I think that we didn't believe it before the war but we had to do it and we found ourself there you know in a situation that we didn't imagine and from all levels it was kind of a the maneuver miracle I don't know how to call it okay we after Decades of not maneuvering with you know with with a lot of forces in all formations right you know most brigades it's very complicated absolutely yes yes very complicated and and it's not fighting only above the ground but also under the ground but we we we did it quite good I think it was the preparation basically from a military perspective what was done in the IDF from 2006 second Lebanon war until now proved it itself combined arms very good now I remember I visited with you years ago uh the training area in the North that has all that Subterranean infrastructure um and so your small units were well acquainted with this kind of you four-dimensional fight above ground below ground yes but but I think that we didn't plan to the end to to put soldiers into the infr into the tunnels but we did we we I would say that there was kind of a adaptation in few levels first on the Strate strategic level well after Decades of not thinking about okay we'll have to conquer Gaza we decided we have to do it we plan we we we plan PL that we in two weeks that we didn't have to conquer Gaza we I must say that in the north the the the the time that it took our forces and mainly the reservist to get to the North and to surprise I believe theal was surprised Twice first from the fact that Hamas entered the war you know much ear thanis balat and second from the ability of of the IDF to spread the forces along the the border to practically to neutralize his capability which our audience have to know that is based on about all alog together 6,000 raduan forces okay Commando forces out of them about ,500 are stationed on the border on immediate alert okay okay more forces than we had in in in peace time along the border so we we mobilized the nation very very quickly so we stopped we we we freezed the situation in the North in the situation that they cannot surprise us and then there was practically we got into Gaza and I think Hamas was surprised from from the fact that we are going inside I think the the main issue was shifa hospital they didn't believe we are going to get to the heart of Gaza we did that and then they didn't believe we are going to kanun and hey could you could you just for our viewers quickly talk about what you uncovered in Shiva Hospital right I mean I from my experience fighting al-Qaeda in Iraq one of the first things that they do is they take over hospitals because it gives them a big building for command and control but it's also as I mentioned they they would use it as a place to torture and kill people as well as for their own people they would provide medical assistance but for others who were opposed to them they denied medical assistance so you talk about the hospital a little bit I I think that the hospital's um main the reason they they they they use hospitals is not for for what you you you you just said but because it it's protected it's protected it's taken as limiting limiting our ability absolutely to fight because you remember what happened in shifa when the whole world said okay they are entering the Israelis are in in hospital okay but practically it's not in hospital there are there are people hospitalized there but it's in head it's in it's in headquarters it's a it's a it's a weapons cash it's a munition absolutely and the same thing with masks they do the same thing with masks absolutely yes exactly so so I think that they build on the on the perception that we won't enter them there because of what we it will how because it will damage our How the West is is looking on us I think this was a major issue and we enter I I think that the idea along the old way succeeded in something which is almost impossible really to separate all the time on the Strategic level by calling the population to move to specific areas you know with detailed maps you know that show you you have to go to this sector and we because down to the Tactical level how to fight in a hospital you know when there are doctors there and and people injured that are being taken care and Kamas operatives in the same I would say in the same in the same room and we succeeded in doing this in including aiding the hospital with all kind of Machinery you the fight so the the hospital will continue to work and we did it on strategic operational with all kinds of humanitarian roads and with your head with you know all kinds issue to the Tactical level we are trying not to hit civilians although they are part of the you know of the again as I said in the beginning there are enemy civilians there's no differentiation it's not you know civilians that landed from the Moon and the Kamas okay they st stop supported Kamas at least part of them otherwise I don't it's hard to say it I think that in I would just say I would say and and you know I would just say that it's hard to differentiate because of the fear the fear that Hamas imposes on the population between those who were who were in their hearts homas supporters okay there are polls there there are indications that that a very large percentage of of of the of the Palestinian population want a change one out but agre but they're powerless they're powerless they're power I I agree okay okay the fact is I think that in every second house we find you know weapons every second third house but but let's put it aside so the the first phase was Northern Gaza and the Heart of Gaza and chifa and second phase and then there was a kind of hostages deal okay I don't remember the time but we stopped practically yes and then we entered kanun which is a big city again we tried we try to C to catch senoir and we thought that we'll be able to catch the the seniors of Kamas we didn't succeed with that but practically inun we cleaned the the military infrastructure okay in in in the B sense okay I think operational level tunnels not every tactical level but the major tunnels when the the the command and control tunnels and the the factories that they have spread in all Gaza you know missiles factories and RPG factories this is the major issue in eliminating Hamas ability to fight in the North and then we were waiting for months I think I don't remember what was the time until for another hostages deal and then we entered Rafa practically when we finished with Rafa there's we finished with with fighting the Hamas military there are where wherever we get inside where they spread from a kind of semi military organization into guilla meaning that they are fighting with small arms okay they don't have much more we are we are booby trap houses they use IEDs other explosives this these are roadside bombs or uh you know they they put trip wires in buildings so when you enter a building that sort of thing yes yes yes yes yes and I think that the the major and snipers and snipers snipers yes yes yes yes I agree the major issue in Rafa is is not the Raa City although it's important but the Philadelphia line which we have to explain to our audience that Israel the Gaza is not bordering only Israel but also Egypt no I don't think that the many know that that they've got a a few kilometers border with Egypt it's not only us surrounding them it's the Egyptians that doesn't like the Muslim Brothers Brothers at all okay also also doesn't like Hamas so the pro and the problem was that most of the Iranian assets that that were getting into into Gaza was getting to smuggling through Rafa know border control facility and under the ground between Egyptian Rafa and gazan Rafa and the most important thing that we are not doing now is cutting the tunnels and holding the line now within this situation Hamas capability to fight is I think I know go got down to 10% to from what he had okay so you had you had 24 battalions or so of Hamas initially in your estimate you know and then and then what do you think do you think they're down to what do you think they're down to like four battalions or something remaining yes but this is not the only perspective that we should look through it's we we killed about half the of the operatives but this is not because they can you know they can recruit more but they can regroup they can right yes yes but but one or two think that they cannot is that building the material the material yes because in order to to generate the ability to to shoot on Israel civilians they they need all kinds of of Iranian Aid yeah which they cannot get now because we are on the Philadelphia and materials and factories that they had a lot in Gaza which we ruined I think to the end and these factories and we should just tell our viewers this is where they would build Rockets so components for Rockets come in and they would they would build the rockets in these factories and then disperse them out to the uh to the exactly yes so they if they have no capability to produce their rockets and to get new ones from outside so their ability to hit Israeli civilians is is got down I think to few percent their ability to attack Israel like in October 7th is getting down down very dramatically because their ability and because now we have a white perimeter with forces around Gaza so what is left for them is to survive they move to guilla against our forces so from military point of view I think we call the we call it in Israel terms Battlefield decision they are not able to fight as a military machine anymore they can fight in small groups against our for against our forces and not against our civilians so we will have to mow the grass there like we are doing in Judea and Samaria unless and we are getting back to the you know to the beginning or middle of our discussion a new Arrangement on the political level will take place instead of of the Kamas and we will continue fighting Hamas but still the major issue is is a political institution that will take place and replace them this is the main issue ER and I don't have any good idea how what form it will take but it should take a new form absolutely I mean security is a precondition for any any I think political alternative toos emerge as I mentioned because you know again who wants to be the mayor of Gaza well as soon as you put your hand up you're you're dead hey we we're we're almost out of time I mean this has been a fascinating conversation and I know that our viewers are much better informed now but I want I want to I want to ask you um a question about civilian casualties right and and of course it's heartbreaking for anybody right to see Innocents suffer right women and children or you know non-combatants and so forth there have been a high number of Civilian casualties we don't know what those are I of course you cannot believe what you hear from the from uh you know the Hamas controlled you know Health Ministry I mean I think that's all you know you know obviously something you you can't believe anything anything you know from anybody tells you from Hamas but of course we've all seen the images of of of Civilian suffering and is heartbreaking can you talk to our viewers about you know why in this environment it's very difficult to prevent civilian casualties what the IDF is doing to prevent civilian cas casualties and try to alleviate human suffering broadly and then what more can be done mayor I mean what more can be done to to uh address this humanitarian concern uh that that is is widely felt you know I I think in Israel you know but but across across across the world okay so I'll begin I think getting back to Kamas military Doctrine and Kamas mil military Doctrine is he Israel and then fight or survive under two basic condition first I hide behind the civilians okay fighting within civilians and second I'm F fighting under the ground okay under under the ground meaning not under the sand but under the the houses where the civilians are living okay that was the their Doctrine and what we had to do is to break apart this Doctrine meaning that first we we we tried to as as best as we could you can call it operational level method is to basically move the evacuated evacuate sorry the population out of the areas that we are going to maneuver into okay and that's what we did we told the the civilians in Northern Gaza which is a million civilians or more to move South okay it worked it I think it basically it work okay so that was on the operation level on the Tactical level the idea was to check and we are trying to check although it's not a it's a different method that we did in previously in more limited conflict is right to to see that there are no on the Tactical level when the unit is entering to to see that there are no civilians there that they are fighting only the enemy it's we with a leaflets that I don't know how many thousands or or hundreds of thousand Millions we calling the population on the Nets practically maybe you can show it during the podcast we've got a map that that divide Gaza into very small sectors and we call the population on a very specific calls to move from one sector to another sector it's not from North G to South G it's from one neighborhood to another neighborhood and and we try to guarantee that if you move to another neighborhood you won't be hurt because we are going to fight only in the next neighborhood and on the most tactical tactical levels is to try to discriminate as as hard as we can with the two Rules of Engagement okay and not not hitting civilians and we are but but we our audience have to understand that what you are fighting and this is a a major issue I I I remind that we killed three hostages our hostages that were that were succeeded to to to to run away from Hamas but was K were killed by Israeli soldiers because it's hard to explain to the audience in in this kind of situation what's going on in the mind of a soldier that every day for for many days is is being shut from booby trap so everything looks like a threat so so so on the Tactical level we are trying to keep as hard as we can the Rules of Engagement of shooting only enemy but this example this incident exemplifies the the the complexity of of of differentiating between between enemy operatives which we killed a lot and and and and Military and and and civilians who are within the area and and and there are times I must say that when we got information about Hamas senior leaders who are still hiding in a place in Gaza with civilians we we are trying to kill them we we cannot you know it's it's it's a complex we we cannot say like there was a there was a you know media issue between the IDF spokesman and somebody I think in the BBC that asked him why did you why did you didn't you tell when one of the targeted killing that we did why did you didn't you you know call the civilians and told them that you are going to hit because we had to surprise the senior Kamas official otherwise he would again this was like the coverage of the of the of the uh of the hostage rescue recently you know it was EST no yes yes you're right you're right it's my mistake yes exactly yes a lot of a lot of the press reports were they were released no they weren't released they were they were rescued and they were being held in civilian you know in civilian homes in a very densely I mean it was it's just astounding to me the degree to which the reporting much of it does not capture this complexity and does not place the primary blame on the perpetrators of these crimes yes yes refusing the the civilian population to to to uh for their for their criminal acts of of holding these these hostages yes and I must say that that Rafa shows that we are succeeding on the operational and tactical level because the the the world told us don't enter G Rafa because the civilians are there the Egyptians they will starve and and practically we manage to evacuate again this is what people don't understand right so when you have the state department spokesman which is almost laughable to me saying we it doesn't make sense to do a big operation in Rafa there should only do raids it's raids that cause more civilian casualties when you have a major military operation and you've trained soldiers as you're saying to discriminate to overwhelm the enemy in tactical engagements but apply that Firepower with discipline and discrimination you take far less casualties and when you see tanks may we both I know have a strong affinity for tanks people think well tanks they kill a lot of people no actually a tank allows you to take more personal risk so you can force the enemy to reveal their hostile intent and protect civilians so a major operation is what is needed in Rafa to not only to accomplish the mission but also to reduce civilian casualties yes I agree and we did not only that we opened new humanitarian road that that bypass Rafa to the area where the the the most refugees are there so so we did all kind of things and a miracle we fight in Gaza in Rafa sorry and it's okay so so we we are I think it it's you know we are doing our best and most of the population in the west doesn't understand what we trying the efforts that we are trying to do after a lot of talking about the starvation in Gaza etc etc well there's no one it's it's okay they're not starving there are you know there's no humanitarian crisis it's you know all the all the you know the issues that were in the beginning that there we are you know all kind of things that we we we are fighting along I think most human you know the military code of the IDF and and and the way the conduct of of War of the IDF is is is the most um in in the complexity of War I think not not many armies in the world can do and do what we are doing and still the the the the the shame is that we are not appreciated for for those efforts of course you know I think that any any any suffering of innocence is is uh is terrible you know and and there have been a high number of Civilian casualties but again you know I I think what we've tried to do is explain today how difficult it is when you have an enemy organization that instead of protecting the population right our militaries we exist to protect our civilians part of hamas's plan is to get as many of their own people killed as possible they've said as much right and and and uh this is what sinir has said I we want more we want more what he calls Martyrs so it's really it's really difficult to understand that kind of a a death cult is what I would call them and the degree to which uh you they're they're perpetuating this but I must say that you know the F uh the US forces we have to always do everything we can and do more to prevent civilian casualties but mayor the last question I want to ask you is why is Israel having such a hard time on the battleground of perception I would call it you know the we have this kind of crazy situation where uh where Hamas has created this whole situation that has resulted in so much human suffering but but instead of holding Hamas responsible you have many uh who are you know calling for ceasefires or putting the blame on Israel and and and and uh you know almost you exclusively for what's happening in Gaza what more could Israel do on this battleground of perception I I was thinking of like a show like the lifestyle of the Rich and Famous that would go into all of the the Villas that are owned by Hamas leadership and then do a quick cut to the destitution of the Palestinian people and place the blame you know on these Terr who have created this situation I I I won't get into you know practical issues but I think the answer to your questions is you you begin with why why we are not winning in those this perception War so I think the first part of the answer is basically historical ignorance of people in the west they're not interested in anything except for know know they no when you see these students here in the States and they're chanting from The River To The Sea which is essentially a call for genocide they don't even know what river they don't even know what see many of them so so this is the first half of the of the answer is is this one and the second one I think that and this is much Bader issue than what we are talking is is a kind of you know philosophies that are growing in the west sort of the the postmodernist postcolonial theories in which everyone in the world is organized into oppressor and oppressed and because the Palestinians are oppressed that Israel must be the oppressors when in fact oppressor Palestinians in Gaza is Hamas right I mean they missed the whole point yeah right and and and the Israel is the last Colonial you know colonialist and so it's it's historical ignorance right and and and and this way of thinking that you know you know differentiate betweeness and oppressors and we are on the wrong side of History Israel are settler occupiers when Israel left Gaza in 2005 control of Gaza after it was attacked in 1967 exactly it's like there's no there's no historical understanding at all yeah yeah yes so it's a combination of of of those those two big ISS issues that I think limit it's a kind of a ceiling to Israeli perception War we cannot penetrate with your ideas those this combination of ignorance and and thinking about okay they are the the pal no and that create a kind of of of a a you know unimaginary ideas of of transexual you know saying we are with Gaza not understanding that that we be they will be killed Hamas Hamas Hamas is not going to respect your pronouns you know I mean they won't yes yes the Lev it's in congruous it's it's it's nutty it's nutty it's nutty yes so so so I I I don't have any good suggestions for you know how we can win such a thing when when the situation of well well you know that I think I think one of the ways one of the ways is to invite mayor fle onto onto Battlegrounds so I'm hoping that people will watch will watch this and uh and understand better so hey can I just say this is an episode to be continued and I hope that you will join me again in a few in a few months there's so much more to talk about um but I I I I'd like to thank you on behalf of of of the Hoover institution and and all of our viewers for helping us learn more about a real Battleground in this case uh that is critical I think to the security not only of of Israel but of the Palestinian people uh and I would say because of the threat associated with you know the ring of fire the various proxies the role of Iran important to the security of all Humanity I mean it's important I think May to remember that half the Syrian population is dead wounded or displaced because of Iran's support for the murderous Assad regime where are the protests about that you know so I I think that that we that that clarifying the nature of the war in Gaza and the broader war is really important to Security in the Middle East but I think to the security of all Humanity I totally agree and I think that after a few Decades of apparent peace and you know what's going on in Ukraine and what's going on in Israel is a wakeup call and the problem is I think it's a it's it's taken as a wake up call for the Govern but not for the population not there's a big you know the governments in the west understand what's going on I think but there there are there are their civili the population in in the west is still living in a dream not understanding that he is he should be interested in what's going on here for for for his sake and I hope that this this episode will H do something well what what I think we can all agreee on is is that what we need is peace and sadly oftentimes you have to fight for peace you know and I think that's what that's what we're we're doing today so mayor hey thank you again and uh it was wonderful to be with you and and on behalf of all of our viewers in Hoover I really appreciate it Shalom thank you Shalom toada thank you and H thank you for inviting me and bye bye Battlegrounds is a production of the Hoover institution where we generate and promote ideas advancing freedom for more information about our work to hear more of our podcasts or view our video content please visit hoover.org