Public Services: Liberty, Equality, Profitability? - Cash Investigation

Good morning. Are you doing well ? No, barrier gestures. Good evening and welcome to the wonderful world of public services. If you were thinking of a job for life and a guaranteed salary, you might be surprised. Look at our survey, we are sometimes very far from it. The State is making savings and even health, one of the most sensitive sectors, is paying the price. The use of subcontracting has become frequent. Before the coronavirus crisis, one of our journalists managed to get hired as a cleaner in one of the largest hospitals in France. And what we discovered raises questions. We will also reveal to you that the State would not hesitate to go beyond the law by massively resorting to civic service volunteers. These young people are compensated half of a minimum wage, but they sometimes do real work as public agents. Public services, freedom, equality, profitability, this is an investigation by Marie Maurice with Manon Bachelot. We'll meet up afterwards to talk about it. From the first moment, we are there, at your side, ready to support you throughout your life. During your first apprenticeships, we will watch over you, attentive to your education and your instruction. When you fly with your own wings, we will give you the most precious keys to move and travel in complete freedom. Sometimes life turns out to be more difficult than expected. Yes, you will experience some disappointments, but we will do our best to support you. In the twilight of your existence, we will still be there to care for you and comfort you. Every day, we put our 5.2 million agents at your service to whom we guarantee job stability. We are the largest employer in France. We are the State. Ah, the State and its public services. We are all so attached to it. Except that in recent years, they have changed quite a bit, right? There is a French addiction to public spending. Budgetary restrictions, reduction of civil servants, 50 billion euros in savings on public spending. The state is constantly cutting its spending. And to reduce the bill, Maison-France is also increasingly resorting to subcontracting. Particularly in sensitive sectors, such as health. By giving the biocleaning market to a subcontracting company, how much did you save? I don't know, several hundred thousand euros probably. A few months before the coronavirus crisis, in a large public hospital, one of our journalists was hired by a private sector giant, as a cleaning lady. Well yes, because cleanliness is fundamental for controlling nosocomial infections, these diseases that you can catch in hospital. Our study clearly establishes that outsourcing cleaning increases infections. And then we discovered that to save even more, the State would not hesitate to go beyond the law. Civic service, mission for everyone, at the service of all. It's work in disguise. What I want is for people to realize that... the young people who are there to help them at Pôle Emploi are people who are underpaid. Cash lifts the veil on the small hands of civic service. Tens of thousands of young people who receive compensation below the legal minimum wage. We crossed a border there. They are outside of labor law, they are below social minimums. Schools, prefectures, ministries, everywhere the State mobilizes its civic services to run its public services. Civic services are not used, I repeat, to replace employment and to compensate for job cuts. Married ? How are you ? Is this investigation going well? Yes, when you work at Cash Investigation, sometimes you have to put on the gloves and grab the broom. You're wondering why our reporter found herself scrubbing toilets. We had to go through this to investigate the subcontracting of cleaning at the hospital. This was some time before the coronavirus crisis. An essential mission, because here more than elsewhere, there are germs and bacteria that can spread very quickly. And the risk is to endanger the health of patients. This is serious. It all started with a visit to the hygiene professionals’ fair. Hmm, it smells good in here. We had come to take a closer look at this cleaning sector where the State subcontracts massively. In the cleaning industry, public contracts represent 3 billion euros of turnover per year. And in recent years, there is a public service that is increasingly calling on private companies. The hospital. We spotted a conference where we're going to talk about big money and housekeeping. This man at the microphone represents a very large public establishment, the Valenciennes hospital center. Fabrice Decourcelles is the logistics director. Turnover, patient experience... This public hospital official seems to speak the same language as this manager of a French cleaning giant. “ONET” This is the company that takes care of cleaning at the Valenciennes hospital. Oh well obviously. Cleanliness is a growing sector. ONET is already present in around fifteen large hospitals in France. ONET is the French number 1 in hygiene. More than 45,000 employees, with impeccable blow-drying and very clean outfits. Hospitals, transport, administrations, the giant is everywhere in public services. Clean, profitable. 2 billion euros in annual turnover. Yeah, life is good when you're ONET. Especially when you make your customers happy. Ah good ? Is cleanliness not a burning issue? Because we noticed that in your hospital, things were getting hot . At the Valenciennes hospital, it was impossible to miss the demonstrations by ONET employees. They have already organized four strikes. In their sights, there is their employer, but also the order giver. The Valenciennes hospital center. One of the 30 largest hospitals in France. So, between the anger of the strikers and the very clean speech of the leaders, who to believe? The only solution is to go see. So we're going to try to get hired. There's just one problem. Hospital cleaning cannot be learned by practicing at home. Nice effort, Marie, nice effort, but no. Before you can join the ONET teams in Valenciennes, you must follow special training. It is mandatory. This is not going to happen on hospital premises. But here, at the industrial training center. Marie, with a hidden camera, is summoned alongside five other candidates. Our trainer is a qualified hygienist nurse, employed by ONET. She must teach us biocleaning. which involves eradicating germs in the hospital. But this training will be done at accelerated speed. It goes by so quickly that to remember the content of the documents, our comrades end up taking photos. Only one day of training instead of two. Let's move on to the basic equipment. For new arrivals on fixed-term contracts, only one outfit provided out of the 11 provided. So that’s 10 saved. With the addition of laundry being the responsibility of the employees. Clever. Come on, the theory is over, let's move on to the practice. Can you guess how it's going to go? Well, as for the rest, full speed ahead. There is a fake hospital room and a brand new fake patient to practice on. But in fact, the candidates will simply watch the nurse play cleaning lady. However, we are here to learn the biocleaning protocol. A set of codified gestures, to be carried out in a precise order. For hygiene in the hospital, this is fundamental. Well no, it's over anyway. Have a nice weekend, goodbye. THANKS. Thank you for this accelerated training. Our journalist will however have to be content with it, because she is hired. In a week, she will be a housekeeper fighting the spread of nosocomial infections, diseases that can be caught in hospitals. This gives us time to go to Bordeaux to learn more about this major public health threat. To do this, we are crossing France from the North to New Aquitaine, in order to meet the health authorities who are fighting against these diseases. At CEPIAS, the Support Center for infection prevention associated with care. A public reference center. Rachel Dutrech, public health nurse, and Dr. Pierre Parneix both stepped up to answer our questions. What is the risk of contracting a nosocomial infection in hospital for patients, Pierre Parneix? The statistics are that on any given day, 5% of hospitalized patients carry a nosocomial infection. So that means today, it's one patient in 20. How many deaths are there in France due to nosocomial infections per year? The last very scientific study dates from 2002. They estimated that there were 4,000 deaths from nosocomial infections annually, deaths for which we were certain that it was the infection that was the cause of death. And today we have no evidence to say that this figure has fallen. Okay, so that means that 4000 deaths per year are more than road accidents actually? Because there are 3,200 road accidents. Of course, it's true that it's a... very high number. Pierre Parneix, in the fight against nosocomial infections, what place does biocleaning have? It is essential in my opinion, since we basically know that if I come after a patient who had particular bacteria, I have two to three times more risk of contracting the bacteria than if the previous patient had not had it. not. So that means that it resists in the environment, that cleaning is complex and if it is not done well. There is a risk for the patient. So we went to take a closer look at what is happening in a hospital that outsources its biocleaning of rooms. To be able to join teams of subcontractors in this hospital, you must of course follow biocleaning training, but in your opinion, how long should this training last? If we do training that lasts less than three days, we will not be able to address all the parameters. So for you, is a three-day training the minimum? I think it's suitable, it's good training. We were able to observe from this subcontractor who works in this hospital that the training we offered, in fact, it lasts a day. In this one-day training, I'll tell you, the people who trained have never even touched a broom. Yes, so there we could only raise awareness, but already, if we don't have the technique, it's hard to see how we could... work afterwards in a correct way. So how do you react to that? I wouldn't want to be hospitalized under these conditions, that's for sure. Bad point for the training we followed. But then how does biocleaning work in practice at the Valenciennes hospital? It's time for Marie, the journalist, to attack her first day as an employee of the subcontractor ONET, and always with a hidden camera. Marie will be paid a little more than the minimum wage. Ah, my only outfit, thank you. Here is Martine, a fellow student no more trained than us. A quick visit to the locker room, to make us an ONET woman. Then you have to go to the store to pick up the cleaning materials. And there, first problem with the broom to decontaminate the floors. Ah, no broom, that's stupid. Another option is to make your own broom. With the broom ends lying around. After an hour, finally, a colleague saved us. The car key? Why not ? Another experienced colleague kindly warns us. Translation of the translation, here, you have to fight to have the basic material necessary for the protocol. Then, the bands that go on the broom, the essential element that allows the floors to be disinfected. Except that most of the time, according to our colleagues, there is not enough to wash all the rooms. Next problem, cloths to disinfect toilets or furniture. Every day, we can use almost a hundred of them. Washcloths worn out on the rope. Reused until exhausted. How did we get here ? The oldest have become accustomed to this shortage of equipment. Savings which would have started, according to them, with the arrival of the subcontractor. Previously, it was the hospital itself that took care of its biocleaning. Do you think this colleague is exaggerating? No way. At the origin of these economies, there is indeed a State strategy. To explain, let's take a breath of fresh air. Guaranteed bacteria-free. These money stories appeared 9 years ago, in 2011. At the time, the Ministry of Health ordered a radical change of course. The flagship program! There you have it, the flagship program. So you understand. Phare means Hospital Performance for Responsible Purchasing The ministry's objective, simple, is to save money. The magic word in his program is gain. Even if it means writing it... 42 times. And where the ministry plans to reduce the scale as a priority is in cleaning. With a ready-made solution, outsourcing. In other words, subcontracting, as in Valenciennes. Valenciennes, rightly presented in Phare, as a model student with its choice of total outsourcing. How much did the hospital save on cleaning products with its subcontractor? The total outsourcing of the Valenciennes hospital center enabled a 45% saving on the purchase of products. What if it was linked to this, the shortage of equipment? In any case, Valenciennes is today one of the rare hospitals in France not to lose money. He has even been a beneficiary for 8 years. On average, 5 million euros surplus per year. Wouldn’t these savings come at the expense of patients’ health? Several European countries have ended the outsourcing of cleaning in their public hospitals. The first was Scotland, in 2008, after a series of nosocomial epidemics. The Minister of Health promised more resources after a series of deaths in hospitals at the start of the year. From today there will be no further privatization of biocleaning in hospitals anywhere in Scotland. Wales, then Northern Ireland followed. Our British neighbors had some flair. In 2017, researchers at Oxford linked outsourcing to an increase in hospital-acquired infections. To meet them, head to Marseille. At least on the weather, we are in agreement with the British. Every year, in the fall, the European Public Health Conference brings together the best international experts in the field. Hey, cleaning here too is ONET. The French number one is definitely everywhere. Good morning. Can we start right away? Between two round tables, these researchers from the University of Oxford will talk to us about their discoveries. A quick comb and off you go. Some time ago, you published this study which caused a lot of noise. What made you decide to do it? In the early 1990s, we began to observe an increase in nosocomial infections. And some have started to say that this may be linked to the outsourcing of biocleaning. You know, 10-15 years ago, we wanted to outsource everything. The idea at the time was for hospitals to refocus on their core business, care. So, in more than a hundred hospitals, researchers calculated the rate of nosocomial infections caused by a famous bacteria, Staphylococcus aureus. Result ? We calculated that hospitals that outsourced their cleaning had a 15% higher rate of Staphylococcus aureus . That's a lot, right? Yes. Does that worry you? Indeed. Indeed, it is very worrying. It is. But how do you explain that there is such a difference in rates in hospitals that outsource their biocleaning? Well... You have to look at the costs. We found that costs were lower when this biocleaning was outsourced and there was less cleaning equipment for staff. In other words, to fit within a lower budget, we reduce the level of equipment and therefore the level of cleanliness. In view of their discovery, we ask them for an expert opinion. Should subcontracting of biocleaning be banned, as in Scotland and its neighbors ? This is what I would recommend for several reasons. First, there is our study which, although we cannot extrapolate beyond the UK, clearly establishes that outsourcing is linked to more infections. And this is undoubtedly the case in other countries. And there's also the fact that by keeping cleaning employees in-house, you make them part of the hospital team. They will be more vigilant. And we hope better paid. They will feel like they are part of a team led by caregivers, and not by an office manager somewhere. We will see what these researchers say about the working conditions of subcontractors once we are on the job at the Valenciennes hospital. Here, we would not only save material. We would also do it on the time spent cleaning the rooms, even if it meant breaking the rules learned during our training. Back with Marie, our journalist. During their day, ONET cleaners must follow a schedule. With a room objective to clean. To which other rooms may be added along the way. At the end of the day, you have to have everything finished. Except that by respecting the protocol, our journalist wonders if she will be able to finish her program on time. I don't know how this is possible. How do his colleagues manage to meet ONET's objectives and respect the recommended duration of biocleaning? 15 minutes per room minimum. A rule stated very clearly during our training. We will find out by following Mélodie, an employee with several years in hospital under her belt. To keep pace, the secret would be to do everything quickly. Demonstration with daily cleaning of a room. And there you have it, a room made. From the entrance... ...Until the final hand wash, we timed this employee. Result, 6 minutes and 50 seconds. This is less than half the time recommended during our training. Mélodie is not an isolated case. To meet ONET's objectives, many employees also tell us that they do not respect this rule. An obsession with performance which directly impacts its agents. Crossing the parking lot... We meet Martine again, our training friend, already knocked out after only 4 days of work. How many rooms did you have? Worse, because of these paces, some ONET employees have difficulty respecting another fundamental rule of biocleaning learned in training, always changing their gloves after cleaning the toilets. Here's how these ONET employees risk spreading germs throughout the hospital. Take for example room 5005. Geriatrics department. Even if it's not visible to the naked eye, toilets are a breeding ground for germs. So, when Marie cleans them, some of the germs get deposited on her gloves. If she does not change her pair of gloves, due to lack of time, when she continues cleaning with her broom, she contaminates the handle. And then everything she touches next in the bedroom. The problem now is that even if she puts on new gloves for the next room, this time it is her contaminated brooms which contaminate her new gloves. which contaminate the furniture, which she moves to the next room. And so on, from one room to another. In short, you understand the principle. OK, we didn't see anything, Marie. Do not worry. In Bordeaux, we are submitting these new elements to the opinions of experts. In the hospital where we investigated, there were apparently serious equipment problems for biocleaning employees. These are the rags or cloths that were used to bioclean the rooms. I think it deserves to be thrown out straight. Garbage can ? Garbage can. You can't clean a hospital room with... I think that even for the professional, I think it shows him that we don't have consideration for his work. I believe that if we want to show him that his work is important, he must still have decent things. I mean we wouldn't use that at home. How do you want the person to say to themselves: “It’s important what I do, if I’m given this material to do it”. This is also what we must keep in mind. So to be even more precise, I will show you some scenes from the daily life of the cleaning employees of this hospital. This was filmed a few months ago. Look at this. So, what does this inspire you? Everything has to be reorganized. We are not in professional health establishment work. Without organization, you cannot be operational for prevention. So here we already see that there is no organization. It's disorganization. This is total disorganization. And what's more, all the time these agents waste doing that, they won't have it to do the real interview afterwards. I have never seen that in my career which is already quite long. Have you never seen that in your career? No. Is there a minimum time beyond which you cannot go down to clean a patient's room? For me, it would be 20 minutes, 15 minutes, but it's getting difficult. 15 minutes, for you, is truly incompressible time. Otherwise, what is the risk? Simply, if we have less time, logically, we will forget places in the environment that will not be done. When the next patient arrives, there will be certain bacteria remaining, he will have a greater chance of becoming contaminated. The difficulty in our systems is that each lack of care or organization does not result... Well fortunately... In serious cases. But in fact, once we accumulate them, at a given moment, too much, it produces an epidemic. I will continue to show you the daily life of the staff who do biocleaning. We'll watch together. Here for example... We followed the ticket to cleaning a room. There you go, we did the math. In total, she spent 6 minutes and 50 minutes in the room. What do you say about it ? What shocks me the most is leaving people “abandoned” to fend for themselves by saying do all the work as best you can when we know in advance that they won't be able to. do it. But I think that we come back to the cost of the service that is paid, which must be paid too little compared to what is necessary for a quality service. But it is also the hospital’s choice. The hospital has long been in the lowest bidder procedure. We put out a call for tenders, we take the cheapest. And the cheapest in this type of market, if we have not made our specifications well and we base ourselves only on the price, the cheapest is the one who wants the market and who will inevitably under-perform. evaluate the performance and the consequences, that will be it. All right. And I would say the poor. You would say the poor. I pity them, yes, really. I pity them because working in these conditions is really a shame. It's disgusting with a job when it's an exciting job to maintain premises. Because that's where we are closest to the patient and we are also useful to them. Would you accept yourself in a service for which you would be responsible for biocleaning to be done in this way? I think I would kick the anthill. By saying it's no longer possible. What you saw there, in our videos, what you saw in the testimonies that we showed you, Would this give rise to the exclusion of a subcontractor on your part? If he is not able to rectify the situation and propose... If it continues in this same way, I am sure that this is a subcontractor that we do not want in health establishments . In this situation, afterward I don't know the rest of the time and elsewhere what he does, but in the situation presented on this screen, obviously we would rather be in the category that we do not want to see in our establishments. At the Valenciennes hospital, does the subcontracting of biocleaning have an impact on the number of nosocomial infections? We ask the establishment to provide us with their figures for the most serious infections, repeatedly . But no data, no information will be transmitted to us. What we can tell you is that there is one that the subcontractor ONET no longer wants to see in Valenciennes. Marie, our journalist. Yes, at the end of her fourth day, she is summoned by her team leader. Speed ​​is the word. Fired in 4 minutes and 38 seconds. Could it in fact be because the hospital noticed, but a little late, that Marie was a journalist? Anyway, the following month we received this photo of an internal memo from ONET. Maurice Marie, do not call back, even if you are short-staffed. A doubt remains. Or not. Or maybe. Farewell Mary! As for Martine, you remember, the training buddy we left, slammed by the cadences of ONET. What happened to her? Despite the exhaustion, Martine held on. A month and a half of stringing together a series of very short fixed-term contracts. Well Martine was also thanked. Overnight. And who told you And wait, because this contract thing, because you had signed... Before closing the subcontracting file, it's time to go and see ONET. Here we go again for a Valenciennes-Marseille, this time with a time to sunbathe the seagulls. We're going straight to the point, Boulevard de l'Ocean, ONET's stronghold for six generations. We asked the group for an interview, but they preferred to write to us. A polite response goes everywhere. To develop our activities in the healthcare sector, we have invested massively in the training of our teams. We continually develop our know-how in order to guarantee the best quality standards. Okay, but what if we want to discuss it in person? We will not respond favorably to your interview request. Signed by the president of the board of directors. Émilie de Lombarès. In the family that runs the French number 1 in hygiene, it's the daughter. We had already seen the son, the person in charge, at the start of our investigation. We still have a chance, mother. Elisabeth Coquet-Reinier, president of the supervisory board. Our values: Listening, respect and audacity. are at the heart of each of our commitments. This morning, the boss of ONET is expected at the Marseille Chamber of Commerce, of which she is vice-president, to inaugurate a culinary book fair. Oh well yes, just say, she's right there. This lady who smokes her cigarette peacefully is with her family the 168th fortune in France. Since the entrance to the lounge is free, we followed it. Excuse me, hello. Madame Coquet-Reinier? Yes, hello ma'am, I am a journalist, I work for the show Cash Investigation on France 2. Yes? We would like to talk to you about the working conditions of your biocleaning employees in hospitals... So I will tell you, today I am not here to talk about that. All right. You asked us questions, we answered you in writing. And today, I'm not here. Very well no, but indeed we sent you a request... It's important all the same, I would like to ask you your feelings because there are some of your employees who complain about degraded working conditions, a lack of material, lack of time... Sorry, we responded to you in writing and I will stop there. Today, I am a representative of the Chamber of Commerce... Can we possibly see each other at another time? No. The answers you gave us do not specifically answer our question. Well, ask the questions again, we will answer you. Can I take this opportunity to ask you one? I won't give you an answer. Because there are some of your employees who feel that they do not have the means to correctly apply the protocols. They are worried about nosocomial infections, they are worried about the health of patients. What do you answer them? Ask the questions again. But what do you answer them? I do not respond to Cash Investigation directly. But on a subject as important as patient health, don't you think it's necessary to respond verbally? This is such an important topic that I will not answer it lightly. But that’s precisely what I’m offering you. To sit down for an interview and you will have plenty of time to answer it ma'am. You understood ? So it's a definite no? It's no. A few minutes later, Madame Coquet-Reinier disappears. in a broom forest. Fortunately, there is always a hospital director around the corner. Paris 5th, December 2019. Rodolphe Bourret, the boss of Valenciennes, arrives for a conference. Hello Mr. Bourret, Élise Lucet, Cash Investigation. We have been contacting your hospital in Valenciennes for a long time. We wanted to ask you questions about how biocleaning is carried out in your home. Can you assure us that the health and safety conditions for patients are respected by your subcontractor which is ONET? Can you answer me? Can we have an interview with you quietly? There have been strikes four times by the ONET company at your place, in your establishment. And staff do not actually feel capable of doing their work properly. People who use this kind of thing for cleaning, for example, you see, these are rags that we collected from your home. These are the kinds of things. You are aware, I imagine, of these working conditions for biocleaning teams? What I know is that we actually work a lot with the ONET company to provide the best working conditions for all agents. We're not... Wait, we're going to move away a little because I have my colleagues arriving. Oh sorry. And so, Mr. Bourret grants us a few minutes of interview. We have seen rooms cleaned in a hurry, we have noticed this type of thing, and the staff themselves, the ONET staff, complain about it, and you know that. You know very well that we do not know the social policy of ONET. We, what we do, it is that in our specifications, we respect them, that is to say that we provide the means necessary for the ONET company to work correctly. But you are the order giver all the same, it is you who decides. No, no, we check the conditions of exercise are respected in our specifications. We didn't see any anomalies, we saw... We did. You, perhaps, but us, quite honestly... It's strange that we don't see any and you don't... You, it's your job. You too, it’s your job. You are the general director of the hospital. It's more yours than mine. I tell you that our hospital is well run. Why did you choose subcontracting? Is it for economic reasons? Do we subcontract the biocleaning of a hospital which can still be at an extremely sensitive time for patients for economic reasons too, because it costs less? So I can only answer yes. There are economic reasons in the choice of subcontracting. But it may be true for biocleaning, it may be true for other services that are used in the hospital. But when you hear that a room cleaning takes between 6 and 8 minutes, that the brooms are in a pitiful state, that the equipment is like that, you cannot be satisfied with it. We are not satisfied with it. And if we actually notice this situation, we have regular meetings with ONET and we report it to them. ONET's social policy is not our subject. Our subject is as you said... A little anyway. No no. If it degrades biocleaning in your own hospital, that's your issue. No, ONET's social policy is not our subject. Our subject is cleanliness. We created specifications that are honest within the standards of public establishments... Honest with an H? Yes, honest to an H, exactly. How much money did you make by giving the biocleaning market to a subcontracting company? How much have you saved? These are relatively substantial sums. That's to say ? I don't know, it's probably several hundred thousand euros. but perhaps at the risk of the patient's health. Honestly... no, no. You are not going to succeed in making me say that by saving on biocleaning personnel, I put patients in danger. This is not true. So are you going to change subcontractors or bring biocleaning back in-house? Or are you going to change your specifications by being more severe? We are going to talk about reinternalizing biocleaning. So is everything okay, Madam Marquise? No, I didn't say everything is fine. The proof is that you have noted a certain number of malfunctions. I tell you that the Valenciennes hospital center is a very good hospital center, a public establishment which has a reputation and which works properly. Bye. See you soon. See you soon. I think we need to press. So. Three months after this interview, the Valenciennes hospital center renewed its biocleaning market. Here we go again for four years with ONET. Let's leave the world of subcontracting. But let's stay in public services. Because the State would have found a way to make even more savings on its personnel. Even if it means putting yourself outside the law. Yes, you heard right. Standard of suffering. Standard of valor. Initially, we just wanted to return to more essential values. That's good. This month of July 2019, there is French Republic Day. The military parade on the Champs-Élysées. As usual, we admire the pioneers of the Foreign Legion. A convoy of motorized vehicles and a dog unit with men on leashes. But this year, the highlight of the show is these young people in blue, white and red around the flag. civic service volunteers. This shows the pride they inspire in the Republic. How so ? You don't know about civic service? But wait, civic service is... “Great.” Exactly. We'll explain it to you. Thank you for being there. Civic service has existed for 10 years already. Originally, it was Nicolas Sarkozy who created it so that young people could get involved with associations. François Hollande then expanded it to public service. Young people will now be able to get involved in administration. Emmanuel Macron, for his part, hopes to reach 150,000 volunteers per year. Get involved, he said. You will please the president. Hey young! You are under 26 years old, you are ready to give your time, 24 to 35 hours per week, for 6 to 12 months, the Civic Service is for you. The goal is to reinstill values ​​in youth, solidarity, citizenship, Hashtag, “the power to be useful”. Civic Service, a mission for everyone, at the service of all . So young people, happy? In any case, civic service allows us to be able to invest in this society, to be able to shape this society a little, and that's what is extraordinary, I think. Important clarification, civic service is not a job. So, volunteers do not receive a salary, but what we call compensation. Whether the young person is on a mission for 24 or 35 hours per week, the compensation never changes. It's 580 euros per month. It's still several hundred euros less than the minimum wage at 24 or 35 hours. But where is the problem ? Since it's not a job. We tell you about the beauty of committing to France. In the government, there is even a special civic service minister. Until July 2020, it was him, basically, at the very back of the class. Gabriel Attal, Secretary of State for Youth and Engagement, 30 years old and a mantra hammered to all desks. When we get involved, we change the world. And when we commit, we also change ourselves. It is by committing that we become a nation. This is why I believe a lot in commitment. And getting involved is good for others, but it’s also good for you. When we commit, we do it for others, but we also do it for ourselves, because we develop skills. To supervise all these battalions of enlisted personnel, the State even created a special law. With these volunteers, we can't do just anything. The law is very clear. A civic service contract cannot be subscribed to when the missions entrusted to the volunteer were exercised by an employee or a public official less than one year before the date of signature of the contract. A civic service cannot therefore replace either an employee, a civil servant, or a contract worker who previously handled the same tasks. Otherwise, it's illegal. However, the State does not respect the law in some of its administrations. Somewhere in France, this is what a man at the heart of the system denounces. We will call him Bertrand. Bertrand is a trainer. His job for 5 years has been to train volunteers in the values ​​of civic service. He met more than 2000 young people. According to him, some volunteers replace staff in the public service. There are volunteers in the police stations who take the place of police officers and who are at reception in the evening, at the end of the day. There are young people who end up in offices like the immigration service. They were civil servants before, but now they can be volunteers. Have civic services become the stopgap for public services? Clearly, they have other roles. It is reality. Volunteers come to fill a gap. That is to say, they are there , we hold, it holds. That is to say, you put the lid on, and if you take the lid off, it's there. I think that in public services, it is exploding, even more than it is currently exploding. According to Bertrand, civic service volunteers have become essential to the functioning of public services. However, the law on civic service prohibits this too. A contract cannot be signed when the missions relate to the general functioning of the host organization. Clearly, these battalions of volunteers should only be a bonus. They should only be assigned incidental tasks. But in reality, we will discover that they have become much more than that in certain public services. It's well known. The best sources are made from old pots. We got our hands on the Civic Service Agency database, which contains the full list of volunteers. And we counted. In 2019, 82,866 young people signed up to get involved. We did another calculation. Among them, 36% were employed in public services. Pot, my beautiful pot. Now tell us, who are the champions in all categories within administrations? This evening, CASH reveals the top 3 for volunteering. On the third step, the prefectures, with 857 recruits. In number 2, Pôle emploi and its 5,003 volunteers, far behind the 13,568 from National Education. We decide to focus on the second, Pôle emploi. In proportion to the number of employees, it is the administration which recruits the most civic services. They now occupy an essential place in agencies. In the central region, a former volunteer wants to testify. Romain Sauvion In 2016, in this agency, Romain joined the first batch of volunteers at Pôle emploi for 8 months. At the time, he was finishing his studies in computer science and had no job. I've been told plenty of times, but look at civic service, etc. So I ended up looking around for a bit. I just told myself, I'm going to help people as best I can to regain some confidence in myself and to have contact with people on a daily basis. I saw the offer and it seemed that I liked the computer. And I went like that actually. But what does this volunteer mission at Pôle emploi officially consist of? To understand... Let's go back to 2015. That year, Pôle emploi reorganized its general operation. From now on, job seekers will have to register on the Internet to obtain an appointment with an advisor. All administrative procedures for applicants will be carried out online. And online only. This is called dematerialization. And for those who don't have a computer, Pôle Emploi has thought of everything. Computer terminals under the responsibility of salaried advisors, with technical support from civic volunteers. Except that in real life, Romain Sauvion saw this blue vest as a completely different symbol. It was a nice overall, it was very beautiful. It's funny you say overalls. Looks like overalls to me, that was it. It's not just the outfit. This is the mission sheet. The young man claims to have taken on responsibilities that go beyond the official content of his mission, simple digital reinforcement. They said “the new digital services to support employment center facilitators”. But that's the reinforcement side in fact, we were all alone. And we weren't trained for that. It wasn't fair we're going to help them click on the things and that's it. We were really there to support them, for registration among other things. And in the end we ended up doing a complete job. That is to say, it was really supporting them from A to Z. People who were sometimes a good fifty years old, who had worked all their lives in a company and who suddenly found themselves at the unemployment. who needed to find work. In the agency where you were, what if we removed the three civic services overnight? They would be overwhelmed, that’s clear. And if there are no more civic services, they can no longer manage the way they are functioning now. Because there aren't enough of them anymore. At the time, Pôle emploi also launched CV writing workshops. Here again, Romain, the volunteer, inherits this responsibility. How many participants are there? It was between 3 and 5 in general. And I found myself doing this really off the cuff. I didn't know what I should put exactly, should I put the skills, this skill for this thing. I had to see with them what job they wanted to do. But what you are describing to me is the work of a counselor. Overall, yes, I think so. It's not normal in fact, it's work in disguise. What I want is for people to realize that... the young people who are there to help them at Pôle emploi are people who are underpaid, who are there to replace people who are qualified for this. That's how we can say things, it's really, they're saving money. They are saving money with people who will cost them 500 euros per month. 580 euros, precisely. Since Romain finished his volunteering in 2016, things are still going well for civic service at Pôle emploi. Except that the phenomenon has grown further. We stay in the center, but further east, 150 km away, the town of Bourges. His house of God and his house of unions. We have an appointment with two Pôle emploi advisors. No need to draw a picture, it's written red on white, they are CGT delegates. Since the launch of the system, they have kept a very precise account of volunteers in agencies in the central region. That is to say, they are everywhere. Currently, 101 across the entire central Val-de-Loire region, which, I remind you, is the smallest region in France. 101 agents in civic service today in Pôle emploi center Val-de-Loire. 101? This is three times more than at the time of Romain, the volunteer we met. And that’s the central question. Could Pôle emploi center Val-de-Loire... work tomorrow if we removed the 101 civic services? There is a big problem. Why have volunteers become so important at Pôle emploi in just a few years? Well in the meantime, there was the disappearance of another device. You remember ? Aided contracts. Gardener, home help, or cook subsidized jobs, subsidized by the state... Contracts subsidized by the state to help people in difficulty to get a job insert. Employees who were paid a real salary, a minimum wage. At the end of 2017, the government put an end to the system. Gentlemen of Parliament, 1. Subsidized contracts are extremely costly for the nation. 2. They are not effective in the fight against unemployment. Problem, at the time, 1,380 subsidized contracts worked at Pôle emploi. The solution is found. Replace part of these employees with civic services, paid below the minimum wage. No, no, you're not dreaming. The general director of Pôle emploi himself assumes this in front of the deputies. We have 1,380 assisted contracts at Pôle emploi. We will have much, much, much less given the decided developments. This will be partly compensated for digital reception tasks on civic services. Remember, replacing employees with civic services is prohibited by law. However, these things were done the following year. Hop, Pôle emploi is recruiting 1,285 additional volunteers. Can we make it clearer? There is nothing to recruit. So there you have it, subsidized jobs have been replaced by civic services. And regarding the famous CV workshops, Pôle emploi agencies would continue to call on civic services. There you go, that's a summons. In official letters, some are now even presented as Pôle emploi coordinators. You have an appointment on Wednesday April 3, 2019 at 1 p.m. with the facilitator. We have hidden the name, but we know that he is an agent engaged in civic service. You imagine ? It is an agent in civic service who will contribute to the placement, finally, to the future of a user. But where are we going? But can you imagine the weight that is placed on an agent in civic service? What does the person concerned say about these workshops ? Job center? Let's check his website. On the page of its CV workshops, officially called Focus Compétences, it is specified that its workshops are led by an advisor or a work psychologist. Eh ? Cécile, the operator, will undoubtedly be able to help us resolve this misunderstanding. Hello, I am Cécile, your Pôle emploi operator. What can I help you with ? Hello Cécile. Are the Focus Compétences workshops led by counselors, psychologists or by civic services? Please excuse me, I didn't understand what you just said. Damage. Let's summarize. Civic services presented as advisors, whose missions sound like advisor missions, but who are not advisors. It reminds us of that good old ad. Canada Dry has always been golden like alcohol. Its name sounds like an alcohol name, but it's not alcohol. At the University of Paris-Nanterre, this is the finding of a survey carried out for the Civic Service Agency by a duo of sociologists. On the left, Maude Simonnet. On the right, Florence Yadaden. For their report, which has not been made public, these labor specialists were able to study the daily lives of volunteers at Pôle emploi. After several weeks of immersion, their conclusions are implacable. At Pôle emploi in particular, they are completely integrated into the organization's policy. That is to say, will turn the question very simply. If today at Pôle emploi, we withdraw the thousands of civic services that are in the agencies, what will happen? Well, we already see it because we, in the agencies we investigated, in the interviews we did, we are told very clearly that when they are not there, the advisors replace them. There are emails circulating in the agencies saying, oh well, the civic services will not be there tomorrow, we have to organize ourselves to replace them. There we have a very clear indication that if the volunteers do it and the advisors have to do it when the volunteers are not there, it is indeed work that is necessary for the functioning of the organization. Pôle emploi agency. We don't even bother to hide it or not recognize it because... That's really the way it's thought of in public service. At this point, we contacted the management of Pôle emploi, who arranged to meet us in the town of Arras, in the parking lot of an industrial zone. The head of the press service made the express trip from Paris. The management agrees to open one of its 900 agencies to us, in a brand new version, with beautiful computer terminals, and alongside the applicants, civic service volunteers. There are five of them wearing the blue vest, closely supervised this morning by a host of advisors. For the presentation, here is the deputy director of the agency. That's it, so we have different areas in our agency. Right away, she wants to give us an update on the role of these civic services. It's always support, it's not, we do it instead of them. There we see clearly, our colleagues are next to the job seeker and are not in their place. To be clear, the colleagues here are these volunteers. Let's move on to the substantive interview, but this time with their big boss, Jean-Yves Cribier. Hello... The HR Director of... Pôle Emploi. We attack the heart of the matter. If tomorrow we withdraw all civic services from Pôle emploi, how will Pôle emploi compensate for the loss? Pôle emploi will do what it did previously, that is to say it will mobilize its own advisors to support job seekers who actually need assistance. in the use of the digital services that we make available to them. But so if you need to mobilize advisors to replace civic services, does that mean that these civic services have become essential to the functioning of the employment center? This does not mean that they are essential for operation. On the other hand, we will indeed have to reallocate resources, advisor resources. Forgive me, I insist, because in fact, if tomorrow you have to replace them with advisors... It is good once again that civic services occupy tasks essential to the general functioning of Pôle emploi, this which is against the law. They are not essential to the functioning of Pôle emploi, I say it and I repeat, they are there to provide an additional service. If tomorrow we did not have these young volunteers in civic service, we would have every capacity to fulfill all of our missions by redefining what our priorities are. So by replacing them with employees. I believe this is what you have said several times and I confirm it. Next workshop, the CV workshop. You are in contact with Pôle emploi. Officially called Focus Skills. What are the Focus Skills workshops at Pôle emploi? I do not know them. Maybe we can ask the deputy director of the agency? Mr. Criby doesn't know them, but maybe... It's over in any case. Focus Skills workshops. I did not understand your question. Focus Skills workshops. It's not Focus Skills workshops, it's the skills profile. These are truly Focus Skills workshops. No. There are two of us who don't know each other. No. It's strange though. No, there is no Focus Skills workshop. We agree, that's for you... This is the Pôle emploi web page. The Focus skills workshop, with the help of an advisor or a work psychologist, you benefit from the necessary support to identify and formalize your skills. Yes, I know this type of workshop, I don't think it's called competency focus. No, but it's not me who calls it that, it's the employment center. Sorry. Here too, we are not contradictory. I tell you that the civic service can absolutely participate in this from the angle of the support it will provide to job seekers. It is not the civic service which will determine which skills you have and which could be transferred to another job. You are sure ? Because here, I have a summons in front of me. Convocation and services, skills focus workshop. We checked, the facilitator is a civic service. It's a mistake. It's a mistake. Yes, but it's a mistake. civic services are not intended to run this type of workshop. And we're going to investigate to find out what's going on. It is not normal. But you would probably do well to investigate in other agencies, since a priori, it takes place in other agencies. Thank you for this alert. We will indeed conduct an investigation. Oh well, nothing! We know when we can be of service. Thank you very much, goodbye. Goodbye, Mr. Cribier. We have one question left. Apart from their civic service at Pôle emploi, what other point do these volunteers in this agency have in common with Romain? Well precisely, Pôle emploi. Most of these young people were unemployed. And it was their Pôle emploi advisors who suggested they do civic service. A common practice, according to the sociologists of Nanterre. This reveals that civic service is also one of the proposals made to job seekers. If you are a counselor and you have a young person between 16 and 25 years old who does not know what to do in the next six months, one of the solutions you can to propose to him is to perform a civic service. And you can in particular offer to do civic service at Pôle emploi. So it’s also an employment policy in fact, very clearly. Young people who are in civic service are removed from certain categories of job seekers and therefore partly from the unemployment figures, that's for sure. We have crossed a boundary there which is that we are no longer in employment. They are invisible workers as workers. They are outside of labor law, they are below social minimums. I mean, when they do civic service, they don't contribute to unemployment. How ? When they do civic service, they do not contribute to unemployment. Ah OK ! Wait, we'll check right away on the official website of the civic service. In the volunteers' frequently asked questions. Well, the question is simple. Does civic service entitle you to unemployment? No. Civic service, not being salaried employment, does not give rise to unemployment rights. Well, there it is ! You are probably wondering what happened to Romain after his civic service. Well, he now has a job with a salary and no longer an allowance. He is a cashier in a large frozen food chain. A job that he found on his own, without help from Pôle emploi. Back to Paris. In the ministry district. In this spring of the pandemic, Masque Investigation is arriving at the National Education headquarters. Meet with the government's Benjamin. This way, Gabriel Attal. Good morning. At the time, he was Secretary of State for Youth and Engagement. You have completely revised my... Yes, are you okay? No, barrier gesture. Barrier gesture. Come on, let's settle down. You can sit there. The communications advisor on the corner sofa and his minister on the corner of the table. This position is quite unpleasant. Without transition. Gabriel Attal, the civic service has just celebrated its 10th anniversary. Can you give us an overview of this device? First of all, it's a very nice device. It is a system which allows young people, which has enabled more than 435,000 young people since 2010, to engage in the service of the general interest, mainly in associations, also in State services, and therefore to discover things about themselves, things about others, to sometimes develop skills that were useful to them later. You use the term engage and you do not use the term work. Yes. For what ? Because we must be very clear on the fact that a civic service mission is not a job. It's not an internship either, it's a civic service mission. And all of this was framed by a 2010 law which created the civic service and which explains that it is a mission of general interest which must contribute to national cohesion and social ties. Okay, so we'll take the example of Pôle emploi. 5,000 volunteers engaged in 2019, this represents the equivalent of more than 9% of Pôle emploi staff. Today, is the public employment service capable of functioning without civic service volunteers? I hope, because otherwise, that means that we are not in the civic service arena. What do you mean, you hope? You take the example of Pôle emploi. I have several reports that have been reported to me. And so I initiated a check on young people in civic service, not on young people, but on Pôle emploi, and on the way in which they welcome young people in civic service and on missions. This is a check that has taken place in recent months. We are in the process of receiving the results and discussing them. I believe there are 14 agencies that have been audited. I hope that's the number 14, I turn to my team. The team says yes. Do you find this? Yes that's right. In fact, the question we ask ourselves is whether the implementation of this new organization at Pôle emploi with digital terminals would have been possible without the deployment of civic services. And the IGAS, for example, therefore the General Inspectorate of Social Affairs, says that “the new organization of Pôle emploi was made possible by the deployment of 2,200 civic services”. 2,200, we were in 2017, now there are twice as many. So we see that civic services have had a very important contribution, which is important to underline. Yes, it's even a little more than that, what he says. Of course, I discovered this report that I didn't know about. But precisely... Well, hold on! THANKS. Precisely, if I wanted there to be a check at Pôle emploi, it is also to look at all these subjects. Your government decided at the end of 2017 to eliminate subsidized contracts. There were 1,380 of them at Pôle emploi, so it was still quite significant. Subsidized contracts have mainly been replaced by civic services. What does this inspire you? I have already heard this criticism about the fact that civic services have finally taken over from subsidized jobs in state services and in associations. I do not agree with this observation. The general director of Pôle emploi in front of the deputies, not just anywhere. said he would compensate for the elimination of contracts aided by digital services through civic services. It was at the end of 2017, it was in front of the deputies. As it happens, I was aware of these statements and the messages were passed on. At Pôle emploi at that time, telling them that there could be no replacement for employment. But in fact it happened, in fact it happened, subsidized contracts were replaced by civic services. That's why we decided to re-examine the approval of Pôle emploi, young people in civic service at Pôle emploi, and that's what I told you earlier about the control and the decisions that can be taken. So I would like to show you the video, the testimony of one of them, his name is Romain, this is what he says about his experience of civic service at Pôle emploi, I will let you listen to it. We were really doing the job of an advisor, to free up the advisors’ time. And that's not normal. It's work in disguise. You talk about drift, he talks about disguised work, the real term is hidden work, do we agree? This is a distortion of what civic service is. So if a state service and not just any one, Pôle emploi, massively uses civic services instead of recruiting real employees for such important tasks, we are in massive hidden work. This is what we are looking at, this is what we are assessing. These thousands of civic services, I ask myself a question, do they contribute to unemployment? They contribute to retirement. That I know, and they contribute, I don't think they contribute to unemployment. No. But they contribute to retirement. There are no unemployment contributions. There are retirement contributions. Yes, because we say that young people paid below the social minimum, who in addition will not be entitled to any unemployment compensation over this period, in this case this allows the State to make significant savings. I do not believe at all that it is an objective of the State to save money on this. You know, we have an objective for young people and young job seekers, which is to allow them to train to find a job. We must not give the impression that we are trying to create precariousness among young people. This is not true. We have done the calculation, there are nearly 33,000 young people per year registered as job seekers who engage in civic service. Are these young people included in the unemployment figures? I don't know how they are counted in the unemployment figures. They are not held accountable, at least in the category that the government gives every month as an indicator to the general public. What I'm telling you, Élise Lucet, is that these are young people who benefit from an experience that is extremely positive for them. What I don't want, and what I'm saying again, and I hope you keep that in the edit, because I know there's an edit, what I don't want is that we throws clean water on civic service as such, because there are abuses. So. Let's take a breath. I... I got hyper... I'm too used to it, so I'm sorry. Sorry, Minister, but we will still have to sit down again. We will have other questions on the excesses of volunteering. In the administration, several thousand civil servant positions have been eliminated in recent years. And imagine that some would be replaced by civic services. This time, it is happening in the public service which embodies the heart of the State, the prefectures, in third place in our top 3. Initially, it started as an employment center, with the total closure of the counters in November 2017 Saône-et-Loire will no longer have any employees at the counter of its prefecture and sub-prefectures to deliver your... What concerns the car switches online. The registration counter is permanently closed at the prefecture. And here too, there are computers for the public run by civic services. The reform even has a name, the new generation prefecture plan, the PPNG. Except that this plan, the State makes no secret of it, is to eliminate civil servant positions. 1,300 positions precisely. However, in 2018, in its general report on public policies, the Senate Finance Committee warns. In total, the prefectural network will have lost 11% of its workforce in 10 years. Today, entire sections of this network find themselves in a situation of shortage of resources. Would civic services be used in prefectures to compensate for staff cuts? We decide to go check it out in the field. That’s good, at Cash Investigation, we have the ideal candidate, Manon. This journalist is under 26, the age limit, and she is a contact woman. Perfect for slipping into the shoes of a civic service volunteer. A mountainous department, somewhere in France. a sub-prefecture of 10 employees or less, like a third of French sub-prefectures. The volunteer was recruited there for 10 months, 35 hours per week, the equivalent of full time compensated 580 euros per month. With a hidden camera, the journalist presents herself at the sub-prefecture. First, its official mission, to take care of the digital point. That one. Like the counters before, but in a virtual version. And in the morning, there are always people parading. Users who do not have a computer or who do not have the internet, to whom Manon must provide a public service. Hello sir, hello madam. And then there are those who have a computer and even the internet, except that it doesn't work. The site to which you must connect is that of ANTS, which you can also use at home. For its permit, registration and registration procedures, when it works. Ah incorrect password. A civil servant comes to Manon’s aid. What code did you log in with, Amélie, taxes, ANTS? I don't know, but I have my tax return in my bag, but then I need the password. And how do we get the password? It's up to you to create it, but you need three codes that you request from the tax office. And once connected... It's long. What are we waiting for ? Access denied. What does it mean ? This means that Manon, the civic service, must take care of a digital point which is an IT nightmare and for her colleagues at the sub-prefecture, an overload of work. There, a simple file, you have 3 minutes, a shitty file, you have 2 hours. So we, you see, this kind of problem with all the work we have on the side, the digital point, you know what I mean. Manon will also discover that at the digital point, there was previously an employee on a fixed-term contract. In the public service, this is what we call a contractual contract. There was a contractual employee, and she did not renew her contract, and as a result it was she who took care of the digital point and she had other responsibilities. When did she leave? She was arrested on December 8. Oh yes, so you've been without it for 5 months actually? Yeah. 5 months. So, less than a year. Is that legal? Let's reread the law. A civic service contract cannot be subscribed to when the missions were carried out by an employee less than one year before the date of signing the contract. But why would a sub-prefecture take the risk of going beyond the law? Could this be to fill a chronic understaffing? We're 5 for 9, so... But how come you're 5 for 9? That is to say... Six now because J. came home this morning. Because he had sick leave, there were positions that were not replaced as a result. There, there is one who just broke his leg 15 days ago. The sub-prefect who hasn't been there for three months. but how do you do it? Because you have the same needs, but fewer people. Well, we do what we can. And there is no replacement? No replacement planned. If you want, they opened a civic service post to give us a little breathing space; it was the only solution that allowed us to actually have someone. that is to say that instead of taking a contract worker they take a civic service. Yes. We are delighted. The following days, while the city passes peacefully, at the sub-prefecture, the civic service compensated 580 euros per month to replace a real employee will also take care of secretarial work. Receipt, declaration, to relieve the agents the journalist is entrusted with official letters, while taking care of archiving several years of regulatory files. Did you see the size of the files? Look at this one. Alongside another daily task, the telephone switchboard. How do I introduce myself? As a civic service, or as an agent? No no, you say: “sub-prefecture, hello”. All right. And you're not talking about civic service, that's none of their business. You're there, you're an agent, they don't have to know your contract. Hello sub-prefecture, I have a small problem with dogs that bark constantly. And what can we do about that? Look, I don't know anything about it. Thank you, have a nice day. A civic service that finds itself helping out for civil servants in need of help. Do you think this only happens in a sub-prefecture of a mountainous department, somewhere in France? Well, not at all. Let's look on the civic service website, in the mission offers. In Lille, for example, the prefecture is recruiting a volunteer for its office to combat illegal immigration. As an agent. Oh well, absolutely. In Vesoul, we are recruiting support for event management. This time, the volunteer will support the preparation of the events and will also be able to assist the communications officer and the prefect's assistants. But it wouldn't feel like a real job. Let's call Vezoul. As you know that the State is no longer hiring permanent staff, we have to go through this. Ah by civic services, you mean? So. In Paris, it is time to submit our discoveries to a government official. My name is Alain Régnier, I am 60 years old. Including 30 years at the Ministry of the Interior, as prefect. His words are rare. Prefect Régnier is still in office. Today, he is worried about the abuses of civic service. Between 2015 and 2018, however, it was he who implemented it in the prefectures, as part of the famous reform of the new generation prefecture plan. Alain Régnier will start by making a revelation to us. Civic services at the digital point, this had to be temporary. The idea was in particular to set up digital access points with young people in civic service, because there are a certain number of French people who do not master computers. So the idea was to be in the transition phase. By the time these digital points are installed and the public is acclimatized, did you set a duration? We had decided that it would stop a few months after the changeover. What should it stop? Current 2018? Yes that's it. All right. The volunteers at the digital points should have stopped in 2018, the year when Alain Régnier left to take care of other missions. We show him that the temporary seems to have become permanent. Today, we have done the calculation, there are 93% of digital points which are supported by civic services. So we are not talking about temporary. Does this figure inspire you anything or not? Since it still exists, it means..., apparently, it would be something lasting. So if it is something lasting, if it is a lasting need, it must be covered in a lasting manner by public agents, in terms of employment, we are no longer borderline there, we are at- beyond the prefecture numerical points. We can't make this work only through young people in civic service, that's not possible. I'll show you things and you tell me if a civic service can do it or can't do it. General reception, that? Yes. Pre-welcome. Not to replace a counter agent whose job it is. No. No. Archiving, secretarial work, right? It depends for what. Basically, do the standard. No, make standard, no. All of this is job descriptions, it's not a volunteer mission. And for the classified ads posted on the website, those in Lille, for example? No, for me, it is not a civic service mission. It's just administrative tasks with no connection to the public. This does not correspond to a civic service mission. To finish, I'll show you one last one. We wanted to show him Vezoul and he saw Vezoul. Support for event management. There, we are in a mission which is not... which is really very far from a civic service mission. I wouldn't validate it if I had to validate a mission of this type. Civic service was not designed to compensate for reductions in public employment. If we consider that this is a structural mission, we must give ourselves the means, with public taxes, with French money, to ensure this mission through public means. So, let's summarize. In the sub-prefecture of Manon, Manon who takes care of the telephone switchboard. “Hello sub-prefecture”. No. Manon who takes care of the mail? No. Manon who takes care of the archiving? No. Manon who takes care of the digital point? Well, because it replaces a contractual one, it's still... No. But that's not all. The journalist will now be entrusted with part of the missions of a civil servant. Yes I'm coming. Manon is summoned to the general secretary’s office. I'll leave you the standard? Obviously, with a third of its agents absent, the sub-prefecture is falling behind in processing administrative requests. I don't know where to start anymore. Maybe you should start by archiving your desktop, right? In fact, the situation is reaching a critical point. For a month, a civil servant has been on sick leave and has not been replaced. Due to lack of resources, all his files are in arrears. So the general secretary discussed it this morning with another official. Do we agree to work with you on ordinary assignments? That, with a two, might be easier for both of you. So we would divide the allocations of the lines between two? You work together on his attributions, that's it. That works. Okay, thank you very much. You are welcome Thank you. This is how Manon inherited part of the functions of a civil servant, responsible for relations with local communities, elections and tourism. A position that may never be replaced. In any case, according to the message from the prefect two days earlier. It was at the department prefecture, during a general staff meeting, to discuss future reforms. In the room, around fifty agents. There's the prefect. And to his left, his right arm. On the agenda, bad news. I have a question regarding the replacement of staff, particularly temporary workers and contract workers. Because we are very worried. We have difficult choices to make, I know that. These choices are likely to be even more difficult, during this year 2019 and then in 2020. We will not have any additional contractors in 2019, and we will no longer have any additional contractors in 2020. So we will have to manages in another way, that is to say accepting that there are vacancies in the positions. I'm sorry but that's the only answer I can give you today. No replacement on the horizon. An austerity cure which would not only concern this prefecture, but the entire territory. There, in fact, on January 1st, we cut all vacation credits. So colleagues are in an impossible situation. So there you have it, it's not even the question of public service, it's the question that we don't want to recognize, that we cut off and we tell you to manage. People are exhausted. And we tell them that it doesn't work because they're not good, because they don't work enough. We tell them if you're not capable, it's because you're not the right person in the right place, so that's the current management. There is this general pressure on the system. And where people are burned out, are very fragile. There are no more means, so there remains the decor. But no one dares to say that the king is naked. But at some point the thing will fall. A decor that flickers. Agents who are already collapsing. After 15 days of civic service, our journalist resigned. Hello, excuse me for disturbing you, I'm a little late. In front of her, a human resources manager in complete disarray. I have the impression that civic services are used a bit like low-cost contract workers in fact. It's not normal because we use you as if you were a temporary worker and we pay you... bah! But hey, normally, a civic service shouldn't have to do all that. You're there to plug a hole, that's for sure. In my department, out of five, there are two who have been absent for more than six months, who have not been replaced. So we work independent hours, which are not possible, which are not paid. I lose more than 40 hours per month, which I am not paid for. So you break down, you go to see the prevention doctor, he is ready to stop you. If you stop, it's your colleagues who suffer. If you don't stop, you'll break down. Me, you see, people told me I was strong and then I broke down. There are nights when I cry. And yet, we don't cry about work. Civil servants in distress and volunteers who would compensate for staff reductions. What does Gabriel Attal think? At the time Secretary of State in charge of civic service. With the new generation prefecture plan, 1,300 positions were eliminated between 2016 and 2018. So of course, we wonder if these famous civic services were not a means of counterbalancing these job cuts. 1,300 positions eliminated on the one hand, for the counters which have been closed, and civic services which arrive en masse in the prefectures. Civic services are not used to replace employment and to compensate for job losses. You know what ? One of our journalists was recruited as a civic service in a sub-prefecture. She worked 35 hours a week, paid 580 euros per month. She replaced an absent civil servant and contract worker. Typically, we are in a drift. There you go, and that is not the mission of civic service, and it is a misuse of civic service. It's not legal. No, it is not legal, and it is a misuse of civic service. You know, we discover deviations through regular checks, and we withdraw approvals. When there are obvious shortcomings at work and there is a misuse of the system, approvals are withdrawn. Have you withdrawn approvals from prefectures? In the prefectures, I don't have an example, we have withdrawn approvals. Are you sure there are examples of this? How ? Are you sure there are examples of this? Regarding the prefectures, I'm not sure, but we have already withdrawn approvals. Do you have the controls? Have you withdrawn approvals from public services? I don't believe that a public service has ever been withdrawn from approval. I have to check. And why ? Because there was no obvious breach detected. Well I don't know what you need? I'm asking you the question again because it's still important. The agents of this sub-prefecture say that they had no other choice because the credits for recruiting contract workers have been eliminated and that this concerns all French prefectures or sub-prefectures. So basically, if you like, we don't have money to recruit a civil servant, we take a civic service and we make them do their job. What I'm telling you is that there is an agreement between the civic service agency and the Ministry of the Interior so that young people in civic service can work with prefectuaries on digital mediation. That's what I'm telling you. I understood that well. There is no approval, hidden approval, or hidden desire to say, you are going to recruit young people in civic service to replace contract workers or replace civil servants. That's not the case. No, but I'm not talking to you about hidden pleasure, I'm talking to you about reality. Are these abuses linked to the fact that in the prefectures we can no longer, for financial and budgetary reasons, recruit contract workers? What I am telling you, from my point of view, as Secretary of State in charge of civic service, in charge of youth and associations, is that if we make young people available to the prefectures in civic service, it is for digital mediation and not anything else. I understand correctly, forgive me again. If tomorrow, we removed the 30,000 civic services which are in public services, could these public services continue to operate normally? They could continue to function normally. Without a doubt. Are you sure ? No doubt with more difficulty, because the civic services provide additional things. Obviously. When you have a digital terminal, if you remove the young person in civic service, the terminal, it will continue to work. On the other hand, for vulnerable people who are not well versed in digital technology, who need support, it will be more difficult to access it. That's it, it's obvious. And sometimes there can be deviations. And we have to fight against that and it has to stop. Two months after this interview, Gabriel Attal was appointed government spokesperson. Despite his promise, the results of the survey on civic service at Pôle emploi were never communicated to us. Pattern ? This report is confidential.