Battlegrounds w/ H.R. McMaster: Tibet: A View from the Top of the World, with Lobsang Sangay |...

America and other free and open societies face crucial challenges and opportunities abroad that affect security and prosperity at home this is a series of conversations with guests who bring deep understanding of today's Battlegrounds and creative ideas about how to compete overcome challenges capitalize on opportunities and secure a better future I am HR McMaster this this is [Music] Battlegrounds on today's episode of Battlegrounds our focus is on the region of Tibet Our Guest is lobsang sang the former sikyong or prime minister in Exile of the central Tibetan Administration from 2011 to 20121 prior to this role sang was an academic at Harvard Law School where he organized multiple conferences between Tibetan Western and Chinese Scholars which included the Dal Lama he was selected as one of the Asia society's Asia 21 fellows in 2007 S holds doctor of judicial science and master of laws degree from Harvard Law School and a bachelor of laws degree from the University of Delhi he served as senior visiting fellow at Harvard Law school's East Asian legal studies program in Fall 2023 King nry ssten United the central Tibetan States into an empire in the early 7th Century until conflict with tibet's Buddhist leaders fractured the kingdom in the 9th through 11th centuries Buddhism spread throughout the western part of East Asia in the centuries that followed and Mongol Invaders placed the sakama or Buddhist spiritual leader in charge of a relatively autonomous Tibet in the 13th century Tibet regained effective Independence after the Chinese Ming Dynasty drove the Mongols out of Tibet in the 14th century by the mid-16th century the resurgent Mongols invaded Tibetan territory and reestablished influence over Tibet in the late 16th century Mongol leader Altan Khan made Sonam gatso who was the Great Master of the Guk sect and the third Daly Lama the preeminent religious leader of Tibet Tibet was strategically important territory including to Mongol and Manu factions in China for the following two centuries British forces invaded Tibet in the winter of 1903 as part of efforts to shore up British positions in Central Asia relative to Russia in the aftermath of the British seizure of Southern Tibet the doy Lama fled to Inner China two years later Britain and China signed a treaty granting Chinese sovereignty over Tibet which the Chinese enforced militarily until the fall of the Ching Dynasty in 1911 prompted Tibetans to expel the remaining Chinese soldiers the Del Lama returned to Tibet in 1912 and the Tibetan people established an independent government that lasted for decades in 1950 communist Chinese troops invaded Tibet and in 1951 the Tibetan government signed the 17-point agreement to make Tibet an autonomous region of China China's religious suppression in Tibet created civil unrest and conflict forcing the Daly Lama and 80,000 other Tibetans to fle to India in 1959 ma Dong's cultural revolution continued to destroy Tibetan religious and cultural institutions in the 1960s and7 70s but it largely subsided following ma Dong's death in 1976 subsequently denel ping allowed negotiations with the Tibetan government in Exile which mainly failed and Chinese repression of Tibetan citizens intensified in the following decades civil unrest in response to Chinese forcible subjugation of Tibet including during the 2008 Beijing Summer Olympic Games heightened International attention concerning the plight of the Tibetan people after 2008 the PRC pursued an aggressive program of Cy azing ethnic minorities including inin yangang and Mongolia the PRC tightened its grip on Tibet due in part to beijing's insatiable appetite for critical minerals reserves until 2011 the 14th Dal Lama led the Tibetan government in Exile the central Tibetan Administration which is headquartered in darum Shala India that year the Del Lama relinquished his political power over the central Tibetan Administration and labang S took over as song the united states recognizes the Tibet autonomous region as part of the People's Republic of China but it has called on China to respect Tibetan religious freedoms and civil rights in 2020 the United States Congress passed the Tibetan policy and support Act of 2020 emphasized the Dal Lama's religious power to appoint his successor promised sanctions against Chinese interference in that process and called for an American Consulate in Lassa the capital of the Tibetan autonomous region we meet with lsen sangay soon after President Joe Biden signed into law the bipartisan promoting a resolution to the Tibet and China dispute act which is meant to counter the Chinese government's disinformation campaign against Tibetans condemn beijing's human rights violations towards the Tibetan people and promote negotiations between the Daly Lama and the PRC we discussed China's repression of the Tibetan people efforts to advocate for freedom and rule of law and prospects for the future in Tibet and in East Asia prime minister lob sangi welcome to Battlegrounds hey let me Begin by saying what an honor it is to have you here you've been a a courageous advocate for freedom and democracy and and I know that you have my respect and I'm sure this respect of all of our viewers welcome to Battlegrounds oh thank you AA for inviting me to the Battlegrounds and it's a real privilege uh to be you know on your show well you have such a unique perspective I mean you ran a government in exile for fif for 10 years uh you've been studying uh authoritarian regimes opposition to authoritarian regimes the establishment of of governments in exile for 15 years working on a book could you share with our our our viewers the challenges that governments in Exile like the central Tibetan Administration face and and ways that that uh you know that that uh that you can advance uh your interest from from a government in Exile and what lessons do you have for for other opposition movements uh thank you you know uh I spent 15 years doing academic research on comparative government Exile and uh case study of being the Tibetan government Exile you know I just thought we I should understand about Tibetan government Exile by doing comparative studies and then I actually ran uh Tibetan government exile for 10 years you know and after coming back to Harvard you know I have to reflect a bit and I felt that you know perhaps if I could turn my visitation into a book with my colleague then it could be helpful for other Exile movements because I've interacted with many and you know they all go through same challenges right number one being who's your host country in host country can determine help a government Exiles right uh and then you know the infighting the challenge disunity uh and caused by again the trauma it's not necessarily their fault right and then the instigation intimidation cooptation assassination divid and rule by the authoritarian regimes or the dictator regimes right and funding issue how much funding you can get internationally will determine again the function and efficacy of your organization or your Exile Community right and how much you can raise domestically right when it comes to funding again there's issue of corruption right and then some of the government's Exile have failed because of corruption so and then functionally um you know how you define democracy by you know from Robert DAL to angelart all all the gies essentially the conventional definition is no State no democracy no territory no democracy but then you're in Exile you don't have territory you know you don't have a state and how can you define democracy in a new way right so when you say in Exile movement Unity single leadership single voice is very very important because you have one voice and one leader and unity but then when you say democracy instead of unity there has to diversity instead of single leader there has opposition parties you know instead of single voice there has freedom of speech so there's a philosophical contradiction between the two so that's why how you come up with a new definition of democracy that is applicable to Exile communities why I say Exile communities is in the last 30 years there has been you know uh decline or what they call backsliding of democracy but then increase of funding for democracy you know and then that in the last 30 years there has been increase of funding for election reform billions of dollars we are talking about and then those who organizations individuals Consultants who are engaged in this election reform or democra reform have multiple by multiplied by like thousand folds yet democracy backsliding and the election is not functioning well and what is the reason and then here I make the argument that Exile Community because they've been they have been the victims of autocratic and dictator regimes will be the perfect the strongest agent to bring democracy back home to do that they must practice democracy while in Exile so that's essentially ISM argument well it's a really important argument and it affects as you as you've mentioned really how we understand democracy and and uh and I think you know we have a a great great colleague and friend of ours mutual friend of ours Larry Diamond who's worked on Democracy for a long time uh so I I think that your scholarship is going to help I think evolve that school of that school of thinking but also as you're mentioning how you deliver assistance in Doc in in democracy promotion and uh L say I'm just going to say I mean I I you this is a huge problem right there are 124 million refugees 35 million political refugees and could you talk more maybe about the human dimension of this you mentioned it right you mentioned you know how people can become disillusioned and and what I wonder is how you how you restore a sense of agency among people who uh who may be you know so frustrated and traumatized you know when my when I finished my doctor dissertation in 2004 I did write this a crisis uh of democracy and hopefully Exile Community could contribute this is 2004 you know this is like again our common friend fukuyama of you know Sanford wrote this book end of history and everybody said no democrac is thriving everywhere L sang we don't see this Democratic backsliding what are you talking about why are you writing this dissertation you know so I wrote that at that time if I'm not wrong uh they used they as per uncr around 24 million refugees uh people displaced people of which 9 million were refugees right political refugees now as you mentioned is 130 plus million refugees uh and then 20 almost 30 million political refugees you know of PE displaced people so you can clearly see in the last you know uh 20 years that refugees have increased by more than 100 million and then the political refugees inre but two or three or four times now so this is a serious problem these dictators you know the auto autocratic regimes are suppressing denying Freedom so much that people are forced to go into Exile and it becomes a global problem with all these refugees around so and while in Exile often you know disunity is one of the reasons there are several other reasons right one and then I till now even I used to think why you know and people blame ourselves right we just don't get along even the funders and the supporters say why don't you get along all you need to do is unite and remove Maduro or Assad or challenge Shin ping right so Unity you know uh kind of a it's a just a common sense but then people don't understand is that they are coming from different parts of their own countries strangers coming together right and they different personalities and primary reason why there's disunity is because they went through a trauma they lost their country they lost their homes families everybody and once you go through this trauma now many psychiatrists and psychologist who study this they say that people who go through trauma are more emotional uh less rational more stubborn uh than reasonable because they see World in black and white there is dictator I lost my freedom I must fight for my freedom right and then I have to work hard to make this possible so in that context you must understand the blame for this Unity is partly because of dictators and autocratic regimes and also the funders so we have so many funders when they fund 10 different organizations of let's say Venezuela or Hong Kong you know or Chinese dissidents what do you expect 10 different organizations with 10 different leaders speaking 10 different voices and having 10 different events you know so if you fund one organization primarily and give limited funding to other organizations even through funding you can bring Exile communities in a bigger platform stronger platform so there are like three ways why you know there is uh you know kind of trauma and disunity you know among Exile communities yeah this is really important because you're pointing out that there are very practical policy implications for your observations about about dis unity and the delivery of of assistance and and I think this gets to your to your observation on the definition of democracy right we tend to think of it as pluralistic and many different groups but of course for authoritarian regimes they don't have to be that strong really they just have to be stronger than any organized opposition so can can you share some other ways that you would Foster you know Foster unity and and try to strengthen uh a movement in Exile you know uh when we Define in democracy generally when we Define freedom of speech we Define terms of absoluteness right so you can say whatever you want you can do whatever you want that is essentially the definition of freedom of speech in America now again I'm a student of democracy and freedom of speech so I might you wearing into some controversial area having said that let's say a small example in America you can uh wear American flag anywhere you want you can wear is a t-shirt or a shorts or a socks uh you know and you can burn American flag you know the freedom of speech covers it right but now for Tibetan if you say Hey you can wear your make a Tibetan flag as your shorts and socks that's like sacrileges you know because for us we are fighting for our nation and freedom and flag is sacred right so we can't accept that you know so that's why I'm sure you know because because you're an exile you lost your country you lost your your your dignity is being challenged here and there are certain symbols that you cannot compromise so it's one example where freedom of speech defined in America might not be applicable in other countries especially in certain Exile communities so we must understand that right so now if all the common friend Larry Diamond I made a presentation Stanford he was in presence as well I said the same thing all of you study democracy assumes State and territory but then if you go with that definition of democracy and advise Exile communities this is how democracy define in America this is what you should practice in Exile they will say it's not applicable to us you know they need a different definition of democracy you know which is unique because all the 10 challenges that they face is it's like a you know do or die kind of situation you know uh in America you can afford to have one president elected and after four years you can change the president but in Exile you get a wrong leader wrong movement your Exile movement or government will collapse and it will take long time ever to come back and then the autocratic leaders will exploit the freedom of speech in your community to create divid and Rule more voices more differences more division the better so they use cooptation they buy you off they silence you and then they divide you so dividing rule you know is their main strategy and then they murder you as well right they go from Russia there's so many examples China there's so many examples where essentially murder you so they use all this tactics so we should be aware of all this reality and take into context and define democracy coming with a strategy which is unique but very effective in challenging autocratic system these are really important points and you know I'm thinking of the work that uh leopo Lopez is doing in the world Liberty Congress and and some of the some of the the the uh the tremendous guests that we've had from Iran uh Mongolia Venezuela and China could you maybe talk more about these mechanisms of authoritarian control what did you what are the Tibetan people encountering now I'm thinking of some of these heinous practices you know like the like the colonial boarding schools and and the degree to which you know penetration into everybody's home with their with their phone which is kind of their their their little um CCP minder that they have to carry around with them all the time could and and of course what they've done to to subvert uh Tibetan Buddhism I mean could you share you the experience of the Tibetan people and and how the Chinese Communist party uh is is is subjugating the Tibetan people yeah this a very good question you know so I think it's comparable to other Exile communities as well what Tibetans are going through so there is internal repression external repression and transnational repression now right so internally you're right 1 million Tibetan students children uh from nomadic and you know farming areas are forced to send to boarding schools where they Tau about communist Doctrine not Buddhism right Chinese culture not Tibetan uh Tibetan culture we're talking about six year olds right sixy old sixy old seven years old yeah from kindergarten all the way to high school so they forc otherwise the incentives are taken away Tibet has six million population when you take one million children from the families and force them in the boarding school and salute to you know uh Maat and shinin ping and insult and you know uh protest against dial Lama and you know religious leaders and young child you're trying to brainwash them into making them think they are Chinese and not just Chinese they are Chinese not Tibetan but they're Superior civilization as to inferior uh Tibetan civilization and then more advanced you know values which is Chinese values to backward values so that's how they try to indoctrinate and try to influence having said that uh I do believe Tibetan civilization is very old Tibetan identity is very rich and TI sense of Pride and nationalism is also very strong so I don't think they will succeed but that's how they are trying now monastically they are shutting down even a private you know schools run by monasteries just to teach Tibet language and culture so I came across a data where Ina the capital city of Tibet 93% of the publication and printing press that publishes books and articles and journals take place in Chinese language 93% can you imagine when you know population in Tibet is Tibetan so that's how they try to influence Tibetans inside Tibet now externally what they do is for example if I want to go to Tibet I have zero chance I'm banned from going to Tibet or any of my family members any Tibetan you must be sponsored by a Communist Party member in Tibet full-fledged Communist Party member in tiet you don't get sponsorship you are denied Visa so what it does is that if you go to Tibet because of a favor by a Communist Party member and that person will control you even you are American citizen in America because that person will have all the data and facts about all your relatives and family members back home and whatever you do or say will impact all your cousins not just your siblings you know and then your promotion jobs you know uh and then even voting even go to school anything that's that's how they control your life choices is what the way uh Stephen cockins says it here right yes and when you apply for Visa if you go to Chinese Embassy they will say so do you go participate in protest if you say yes you're denied Visa H so do you contribute we have this Freedom Tax TI Identity book which is the $6 or $100 a year if you pay that you are denied Visa so they ask they go through this checklist just to deter you intimidate you and to overwhelm you into not doing anything when it comes to Exile movement and then make you in know hostage even while you are in you know Exile so this intimidation that they use is very common for example uh is it October November I was giving a talk at Cornell uh so I late evening uh um uh flight as I landed at IA airport uh there was one uh Chinese person speaking Tibetan and few few words he greeted me and he said oh I'm a big fan of yours I want to take a selfie and all that I said okay uh we took a selfie then I went to give a talk the next day he was there in the auditorium you know taking video and then we had a dinner at a faculty uh with faculty members at a restaurant within the campus he was there with a Chinese student now more surprisingly early morning I had like 7:30 a.m. flight or something so I was there at the airport at 6:30 and he was right there at the Gate of my flight you know then I then I when I saw him at the talk at the dinner and I suspected he was sent by Chinese Embassy you know so and then uh at the gate I said hey now you took my selfie yesterday and now I would to take selfie with you today and then he ran away he didn't want to take selfie so what they're trying to do I they literally track you you know uh your flights and literally wait you outside the gate when on your arrival and then you know at your Depo and this is happening in the United States right it's happening all over the world these these illegal police stations that the CCP set up and lob say I don't know if you've seen this at at Harvard but you know this China Chinese student students and Scholars Association which is a front for the ministry of State security this is China's spy agency to keep tabs on students I mean I think every University President should vow to insulate their campus from that kind of intimidation what can you tell our viewers more about the experiences that you've seen of of your Chinese students and others who are intimidated by the Chinese Communist Party abroad now I was giving a talk at University of Toronto when I was uh you know holding my official position uh 50 Chinese students uh came with the Chinese flag and started singing national anthem outside the auditorium you know and surprisingly I was giving a talk uh at a law school in South Africa ktwn uh um it's a private university um and then they announced it and what happened 100 plus migrant labors hired by Chinese Embassy and 30 plus Chinese people came storm the auditorium climb on the stage with big banners and then essentially drown out and chase away the uh audience right so I had to speak at an alternate uh classroom where maybe half the people came and now in America they tried intimidate You by holding protest outside but in South Africa they were holding protest inside the auditorium and then shouting slogans and making sure there there are no attendeers so and and then the Chinese Embassy issued a press release um about my visit in Lithuania also they issued a press release so I have encountered several you are a a general uh uh you know and fought many wars but when it comes to political activism I have had small battles with these uh protesters as well I'm quite used to it right you know we have a colleague stepen cockin I mentioned already who studies Stalin and and from his study of Stalin he's concluded that authoritarian regimes really need five things to stay in power they need they need cash flow they need Security Forces they need choices you they control your life choices which we've been which we've been talking about uh they need stories to tell their people right to create this narrative that everybody's out to get you but the the Chinese Communist party orever it is is going to is going to protect you and make your life better and and then and then finally they need an intern AAL system that's benign you know that doesn't that doesn't challenge their authoritarian rule could you maybe talk about what you think are some of the critical uh critical initiatives uh efforts that could be made uh to to weaken uh authoritarian regime's grip on on on uh on people and and and their ability to to stifle human Freedom you know you mentioned that International organizations you know of the 15 un agencies uh last I check four or five are headed by Chinese officials right of the remaining 10 I think either the senior director or the vice chairman are Chinese uh now um after America China has become the second largest donor third is Japan and Japan used to second now when they donate uh it's like in know quick proo it's conditional so we give this much of money to this agency but we demand that head of the agency be our person right so there's this huge the UN agriculture related agency approve all kinds of fertilizer and chemicals to be used in African countries because these were the countries where agricult products were exported to China and they didn't care about the erosion of soil and after two years of using that kind of fertilizer that that soil will be useless for three or four years what happened to these Farmers they income right but then the UN agency is approving that fertilizer to be used in that country and then you find that head of agency is Chinese and the export of the agriculture product goes to China and that's how that's how they use it right so you know we should be very aware of how International agencies are infiltrated and and then misused by you know Chinese government and in collaboration with other uh uh uh communities as well for example there you know the uncr uh the UN Human Rights Commission came up with a report saying that there is crime against humanity in rur region and it's a fact America says so Canada says so even un uh Human Rights Commission came out with the report and then this was tabled to pass a resolution at the UN General Assembly only 51 countries voted with wigor more than 150 countries didn't vote with with BS can you imagine UN Human Rights Commission is saying there is crime against humanity support this and 150 countries don't agree with you and don't support you so that means even the UN bodies are very much compromised and weakened uh by you know China and other countries yeah love saying it's even worse I guess when you consider Chinese China's allies you know for example Russia is now the chair of the the rotating chair of the Human Rights Council for example and you know I I wonder also if you might if you might comment on on uh on how to Advocate within International organizations you know I think that oftentimes you know people think there's just a prize for membership you know if you're me if you're a member of international organization but as you're pointing out they're really they're really a Battleground in themselves you know a contested space and China's been very very successful in in promoting uh its authoritarian model and it's it's meranol status economic model in various International fora yeah I mean you're right and it's a fact that there are more non-democratic countries in the world than Democratic countries right in that sense we are losing you know uh so and then yes China has allies all this autocratic non-d Democrats what they say is look we will not tell you how you run your government and you know no matter what kind of corruption repression you have as long as as you we have this business deals we give you a loan with high interest and then you you can't pay back we take the ownership of your cport or airports you know and all kinds of uh even agriculture land right so that's their uh strategy and then unfortunately it seems to be working so we have to use I think all International you know forums including United Nations Human Rights Commission you know I know uh on the one hand it's an uphill battle uh they have the majority if the chair is you know a Russian kind of Representative what do you expect from Human Rights Commission you know having said that we must use every Forum possible and maximize uh our you know uh the uh time and then speak out um so that's the only way you know so that's the only way we can fight so at the public discourse private discourse and then coordination and collaboration with like-minded countries don't go alone take as many countries as possible with you and speak in Unis otherwise Chinese government again Russia also they divide in rule right so fewer representation there fewer voices are there for freedom and democracy good for them so I think coordination is very very important and then we should keep pushing back at every uh International forums you know love saying just uh I think two months ago about two months ago Congress passed the promoting a resolution to theet China dispute act it calls uh I think for resolving you know the the dispute I think the languages in connection with international law including the UN Charter uh and highlights the distinct Tibetan religious cultural linguistic and historical identity what what China is actually trying to uh you know try trying to trying to extend you know and it accuses that accuses China rightly accurately of violating International legal obligations by denying the rights of Tibetans to self-determination and President Biden recently signed that act but when he signed it you know he issued what I think is kind of a weak statement you know that that that diluted the impact uh of the law could you maybe give us your assessment of the Act and the president's letter and and what more what Can Can America do uh to advocate for the rights of the Tibetan people you know I was in India uh when the uh bill was passed uh Second and then I and then the US congression delegation was also there you I really welcome the Act passed by the Congress as you rightly said it talks about one that uh China claims Tibet has always been part of China since ancient times is wrong and based on international law Tibetans are enti have self-determination and then US government is for negotiation between daal Lama or his representative and the Chinese government so they they be a mutually agreeable solution so this was as far as negotiation is concerned you know this was mentioned in previous acts as well the historical part was very new so we all were very excited but then when it was signed President Biden you know clearly said that this act does not change the fact that Tibet autonomous region and Tibetan areas of China he already acknowledged Tibet autonomous region and Tibetan areas as China of China is part of PRC so we were very excited about the historical part and that was uh very much diluted uh with the statement of the President right having said that we really appreciate what the US Congress has done we really appreciate the American government continued support for negotiation and to resolve the issue of Tibet and their support yes but uh uh to see that historical part uh being taken away and to recognize that Tibet autonomous region and Tibetan areas of China is part of PRC um that defeated the historical element of the Congress act so that I think you know many Tibetans have expressed their appr renson and disappointment I think it stems from this idea that you that we should manage you know the relationship with China instead of win the competition with the Chinese Communist party which is actively undermining you know your sovereignty our sovereignty through its various programs from you know belt and Road and the global development initiative and the the Global Security initiative and the global civilization initiative right so I I I I uh I agree with you that we should you know probably uh we should certainly you know stop trying to qualify these kind of these kind of statements if I may I want to acknowledge because you were part of the you know previous administration Tibetan policy and support act uh of 2020 was clearly passed in 2020 right and in that act I think we got everything what we wanted right uh when it comes to you know uh uh the Tibet being very important from environment Al point of view uh natural resources point of view Reincarnation of Dalal Lama is very important it is for Dalal Lama to decide and no one else you know and uh to set up and Chinese counselor no I mean American counselor in Lassa uh and funding including Twan government Exile in my office was acknowledged in that law and it was signed by President without any uh condition or you know um uh any uh of you know his own uh opinion statement so uh we are very appreciative of that act and then Tibetans in general have you know really uh welcome that inside and outside Tibet that historical part was not dealt with at that time and so this time the historical part was dealt with yes lank could you uh maybe share with our viewers your your assessment of the general geopolitical situation of course you know really tibet's had uh right in the center of a lot of uh a lot of conflict obviously the the internal efforts by the CCP to suppress the the the uh the Tibetan people you have this genocidal campaign against the the Wagers in uh in East turkistan uh xinhang you have um you've had B the Border dispute between India and China the bludgeoning of Indian soldiers to death on the Himalayan Frontier uh and more broadly you have it's what I what seems to me to be the emergence of kind of an axis of aggressors who are engaged in what we might view as cascading crisis from Europe to the to the Middle East and these looming crises in the Indo Pacific how do you see the world today uh how concerned are you about these these geostrategic Trends uh that we're witnessing yeah it's quite disturbing you know obviously uh that now great power rivalry is on and China wants to be number one they have already said so uh in you know 2049 at the uh 100th anniversary of Communist Party of China they want to be number one in the world militarily politically economically they want to be the numeru Uno as when it comes superpower uh so hence you know it's it's bound to have conflicts but I just want to touch on like you said how important Tibet is or the Dal Lama is for example in the Tibetan policy support act Reincarnation of Dal Lama is clearly defined and it is for the D deci side and no one else now imagine okay how important that is whole of Himalayan belt of India they largely follow dama as a spiritual leader then up north it's all Tibet right so they follow diama as the leader then then up north of Tibet is in the Mongolia it touches inner Mongolia a large number of Mongolians follow theama and then up north of inner Mongolia is out Mongolia or Mongolia again there they follow dalama and up north of Mongolia is buret and uh uh you know uh tuba uh two republics of Russia they also follow uh dial so can you imagine from all the way to Himalaya him the Himalayan region to Tibet to Inner Mongolia outer Mongolia to Russian republics right and then on the east side of Tibet or the South uh uh side of Tibet or the east side of India is Burma Cambodia Laos Thailand Vietnam all Buddhists and further down Singapore uh you know South Korea uh and then you know Japan so you know when you in terms of we talk about Buddhism you can clearly see the huge territory of that area and major many of the countries southeast Asia they follow Buddhism as the religion so Tibet sits right in the middle when it comes to geography territory and then most importantly water Tibet is the source of major rivers for Asia of the 10 major rivers of Asia six flow from Tibet yangi and Yellow River credal of Chinese civilization right Lifeline for China That's where 90% of H Chinese people live between you know Yellow River and yanga you know and rest of these uh 60% of territory of China belong to Tibetans and wig and Mongolians and manchurians and other quote unquote minorities was always 40% and then uh brahmaputra River Lifeline for uh you know Bangladesh and Northeast of India maong River we all read about Vietnam War and maong River it starts from Tibet uh and then you know Ira the river so and then on the this side of Pakistan India indas River you know uh satas River all flow from tiet so so Tibet is the roof of the world and compared to antic Arctic when the ice of antic Arctic well it goes to Ocean becom salt water not drinkable when the glaciers of Tibet melt it becomes streams and rivers drinkable you know so hence it impacts 1.4 billion people in that part of the world so China sits on top of the roof which controls the flow of rivers so that's why it's so important and then from natural resources point of view you just uranium gold copper you know lithium 70% of lithium reserve of China is in Tibet so you can clearly see So geopolitically speaking geographically speaking and from resources point of view again which as strategic implication uh Tibet is very rich you know it is such a critical critical place in from a cultural perspective a religious perspective as you've mentioned from a resource perspective and you know we have kind of limited visibility into what's going on these days and and you know we for example we closed uh the uh the consulate uh in China's chenu region uh and so I think Americans have a hard time understanding what's really happening uh in in Tibet how do you stay connected how do you get around China's great firewall uh to remain connected to the Tibetan people can you share some of what you're doing to tell Tibet story story to the world make sure Tibetans are not forgotten and and also to to reach back into Tibet uh with with real information uh information that's not controlled and manipulated by the Chinese Communist party on the one hand you know China has created this firewall you know uh you know 99% of Tibetan people in Tibet are denied passport to travel even those who had passports were taken away now so they are really shutting down Tibetan movement because more they move out means more information and more reality about Tibet will be uh shared outside and the criticism against Chinese government will increase and then uh every kinds of firewall media firewall you know internet shutdown all this are taking place into and then uh uh the check post and high uh Tech ID being issued so each time you swipe it your movement is track so all that is taking place having said that 30% of exiled Tibetan population were born and brought up in Tibet in 80s and 90s and fled to India so they still communicate with their families back home lot of challenges lot of intimidation a lot of listening going on so that's how we get our information now most importantly they essentially shut down the border between Nepal and Tibet so normally thousands of Tibet used to flee from Tibet through Nepal to India so that is shutdown so Chinese government is doing everything possible to shut down physically and technologically and you know so that we don't have access but fortunately we still have 30% of exiled Tibetans you know who were born in 80s and 90s and fled to India and through them uh we get information this is really uh Illuminating you know could you maybe uh tell our viewers just kind of maybe we can end on a on a lighter note what they might know about the rich Tibetan culture uh the you know the tenants of of Tibetan Buddhism uh and uh and what what they might read or follow to to learn more about Tibet um the general public you mean to say right yes general public yes right uh I think his Sol is you know uh often quotes him a great scholar of Nanda called Shanti DEA and he said if you can solve a problem why worry about it if you cannot solve the problem what is the point of worrying about it you know so if you can solve the problem you should not worry if you cannot solve the problem what is the point of worrying about it right so the world the challenges that we are facing we must make efforts you know so on the one hand we should worry yes but then work more work harder to bring changes and maintain equinity because you know eight Empires collapse in 20th century right in 21st century also some of these evil autocratic regimes they come and they go and Buddhist notion impermanence one who's born has to die all these dictators will die anyways one day right and the good guys will you know win ultimately you know so democracy will prevail so we all must uh make efforts and don't get overwhelmed intimidated by oh my goodness there are more undemocratic countries than Democratic countries they less Freedom which are all true but you must face it with Shanti dea's quot and keep marching forward to make this world a better place more democratic more freedom that's where we are Marching towards and we will prevail I can't think of a better note to end this on but I do want to just ask you one final question is there anything else you want to share uh with our viewers maybe about the cta's goals and and objectives and anything anything you'd like to impart yeah I think yeah we started with that I would like to say CTA or the Tibetan government Exile is the uh most functioning Effective Government Exile there is and I would urge all the Exile communities yes I'm giving you know many workshops to Exile communities now that they should study this um and then replicated which would be good because we the Tibetans have been in exile for 60 years now we are the you know elder brother so to speak of all the exiled communities and we have faced so many obstacles and challenges along the way and through the Visionary uh leadership of solist dama and with the support of Tibetan people we have created something which is in Exile but a democratic functioning government and a movement and we would urge you know other Exile communities and other those who study democracy to study this um and then you know uh and then share it with others and encourage others to follow suit love sex s guy thank you for for joining us uh on behalf of the Hoover institution I just want to tell you how much we admire uh your courage your determination and appreciate you sharing your your invaluable perspective uh with our viewers on Battlegrounds thank you so much thank you HR you know so for your great initiative uh in you know Battlegrounds at Liberty games and hope you a great success and then through your project and our collaboration you know uh we will see more democracy and freedom around the world thank you L Battlegrounds is a production of the Hoover institution where we generate and promote ideas advancing freedom for more information about our work to hear more of our podcasts or view our video content please visit hoover.org