Voices from State College for Colored Students of Delaware Graduates

any questions before we start okay ready to go all right well I'll go ahead and open it up so we'll give people a couple of minutes to log in once we get started and then I'll I'll get us started very good are you still hot l minut passed that's what happens what happens well I I don't need to go do I need to just review the um description of um you know what we doing or just can we get just right into it because the description is is post yeah I if you wanted to go over it quickly before you start you could otherwise you know it is on the on the website so hi everybody thanks for joining us we're just going to wait a couple of minutes to let people log on and get settled and then we will get started my interview from way back 202 yours [Music] you've got yours too because I gave it to you no this her whole interview 24 pages long oh maybe she just want to let you know ladies we're live right now all right we're not gonna say anything that's going to embarrass anybody they're listening to everything you're saying that's all right well let's go let's go ahead and get started here hi everybody I'm Alex Tano I'm the PDI education chair um thank you for joining us want to give a big thanks to our 2023 conference sponsors um I'll just go over a quick few Zoom um tidbits here for our attendees so um all attendees are muted but you can use the Q&A function at the bottom of your screen um to put in questions and then we'll take audience questions at the end um the chat box is also there if you're having technical difficulties you can get in touch with with me and I'll try to help you out we are recording um all of our conference sessions so they'll be available in a few weeks on preservation Delaware's YouTube channel and if you aren't already a member of PDI I want to invite you to consider joining us because your support helps us keep events like this one free um so thanks in advance for that and then I just want to go ahead head and introduce our moderator today so Dr Abdullah Muhammad is one of our PDI board members um he spent his formative years in Baltimore Maryland where he lived for 38 years he graduated from Baltimore's top College Prep High school and then rode at Bowden College in Brunswick Maine um after only three years he graduated Kum L as an early graduate after that he went back to Baltimore to teach English at his high school on the moer and then from there even as he uh spent 17 years working in the insurance industry he still maintained his commitment to education so he was PTA president at his daughter's middle school then became Regional PTA coordinator president of Baltimore's ptas and PTO and then finally parent representative on the superintendent Advisory Board in 1993 he moved to New York City where he completed his master of arts degree at Teachers College Columbia University uh he graduated with honors in 1996 while working full-time as a special education teacher for middle school students in Queens then he moved to Delaware in 2003 after spending 10 years studying and teaching in New York City where he successfully completed two master's degrees in education and served as a principal for one year so after he came to Delaware he served one year in the colonial School District uh where he discovered a need for a new kind of history book and began by publishing a number one selling Delaware history calendar followed by his reader-friendly history book um which is called the making of Delaware one day at a time lastly he served as an Adjunct professor in the history department at Delaware State University where he completed his doctoral degree in under three years and his second history book Africans in New Sweden the untold story prior to joining the teaching staff at DSU he was recruited to serve on the board of the Delaware preservation fund and while on the board of DPF he served as both vice president and president before joining the board of PDI and he is still one of our board members today so in addition to U being the Project Director of the DuPont colored School oral history project he serves as chairman of the Newcastle County Library Advisory Board vice president of old swedes historic site and the in-house historian for the new Sweden Center so Dr Muhammad is a busy man and we thank him um and appreciate his help for this so welcome Dr Muhammad and welcome Dr Hollingsworth and Mrs Brown we're so happy to have you thank you thank you and thank you for that um great introduction I I guess I got to pair that down a little bit so we don't spend so much time talking about things I've done and let's talk about some of the things that these uh uh luminaries here I have to refer to them as luminaries because uh there there literally only a handful of graduates from Delaware State College for color students uh that are still alive and we have two of the most prominent members of that uh unique group um and when I say handful I mean five there are only five so our two speakers for the day uh will be Mrs Susan young Brown at a young age of 105 and Dr Reba hollingworth who will who has turned 97 today and before we leave you all we are going to uh do a little special tribute to Dr Hollingsworth and I I hope she doesn't get too embarrassed um so I thank you all for joining and please you know stick around so after we have our Q&A we have our tribute for Dr Hollings work um I I did want to go over the fact that um uh some of the information about the uh Dupont this uh this is a dupon school that was constructed in 1922 um as you know well you'll find out as we go through the um uh The Talk today that uh Mrs Brown joined and um the the uh student body there in 1937 and Dr holl came a few years after that um but the school itself was a two room two room brick School building um and it was near and associated with the the state college for college students that were was first uh organized in 1898 so uh 92 I'm sorry [Music] 1892 is that correct 92 91 oh it's 91 yeah okay all right so um that's a little bit about the and it only became the second High School in Delaware where uh college students both African-Americans and Native Americans could attend if they wanted to complete high school so I want to begin by U just uh talking about Dr hollingworth here for a second um I introduce her with her reading her bio uh Dr Reber Ross Collingsworth is a dedicated educator counselor and Community activist born and raised in milord Delaware she's a lifelong advocate for Education Dr holl overcame the obstacles of living in a segregated society and we will find out more about that as we go into the uh discussion after attending milrey college school number 3C and Booker Washington Middle School she earned her high school diploma in 19 1945 from the Delaware State College High School for college students in Delver which was then the only educational institution in Kent and Sussex Cy that provided High School instructions to African-American students and Native American students she graduated from Delaware State College in 1949 with a BS degree in home economics and became a teacher uh even still Dr Hollingsworth continued to further her education despite being shun and ignored as one of the only of only two black students in the school of home home economics graduate program at the University of Delaware she attended summer school there in 1952 she also earned a Masters in Education and guidance and counseling from University of Delaware in 1970 and a PhD in counseling from Pacific Western University in 2001 after after starting as a teacher in South Carolina she was hired to teach home economics and science at William C Jason Comprehensive High School in Georgetown Delaware in 1954 in 1966 she took a new position as a guidance counsel at do high school in do Delaware where she was the first black woman counselor at the school Dr hollingworth retired in 1988 and that was a long time ago go as well Dr Hollingsworth has served her community in countless ways both as an educator counselor and advocate for civil rights and she has been recognized and honored in Delaware and abroad she has served on a number of boards and commissions uh including as Vice chair of the Delaware her Heritage commission a Lifeline member of the NAACP and as the first black president of the Delaware School Counselors Association and in 2017 Dr Hollingsworth uh the doctor pworth Center at the Early College High School at Delaware State University was renamed in her honor uh for her accomplishments and Legacy at the school additionally Dr hollingworth was inducted into the Delaware Women's Hall of Fame in 2018 in 2023 she remains very active in state and local Affairs and shows absolutely no signs of slowing down at the young age of 97 so again welcome Dr hollingworth and I like to introduce our next guest uh Mrs Susan Brown uh who is a young age of 105 years old when she was born in hon Delaware in 1918 she started first grade in 1924 at Williamsville College School located in hon Delaware and left in 1932 after completing 8th grade her formal education was completed at segregated schools in the state including her graduation from Delaware State College for college students High School in 1937 and then later from the college in 1945 while at the State College both for high school and college she lived on campus and paid a total of $25 per year which she says was a lot of money back in those days after finishing high school she took a year off to work and make some money to complete college she returned as a day student and graduated in 1945 with a degree in elementary education while attending college she took a little bit more time off to get married and earn enough money to stay on campus and graduate Mrs Brown took an interest in elementary education after being influenced by one of her Elementary School teachers Mrs Elizabeth shley after graduating with her teaching degree she started as a third grade teacher at John Wesley elementary school and then Lockwood Elementary School where she taught grades 1 through six she went on to teach at Booker T Washington School and Fairview Elementary School where she retired after 30 years as a teacher so to the both of you welcome so happy to have you I hope that the audience will appreciate all the years that you put into being a part of Education here in the state of Delaware um I want to um just acknowledge that Dr Hollingsworth did turn 97 today so just want to reiterate that we have a special uh announcement and uh treat for her at the end of this so stick around folks don't go anywhere and um I'm going to get started with u my first question and I just uh uh want everyone that is on the line if you if you have a phone if you can mute the phone so that we don't have to get uh Disturbed um by any ringing of the phone and I'm doing that now just as I'm talking to you so I want to get back and get started ladies are you ready yes sir okay um uh Dr holworth you're a little cut off from your screen you need them yeah there you go now we got both you in full View and um um uh Mrs Brown I'm going to start with you first um the question will be the same for the both of you but I will repeat the question for for you each time um what can you tell us about your first year at that school and how and tell us how you felt about having the opportunity to attend the school do you me yeah oh looking I My First Year talk Lou I was so happy to be there because I live talk louder or we can hear I was happy to be able to continue my education because I lived on a farm and we didn't have uh we didn't have the uh things that we that I could get at Del State and in fact I say we didn't have electricity and we didn't have running water so therefore my first year I was just so happy to be able to tend do you I also want to mention that we have Dr Overby Lynette Overby with us as well can you just peek in so we can hi Dr Obie uh this is this is U Mrs Brown's daughter uh Mrs Brown has um you know how when you get older those those little hairs that you have in your middle ear when they uh die off they don't grow back and a lot of people don't understand that that there is no regeneration of those little fine hairs hairs that help you to hear so thank you uh Dr obbe for being here with us to assist your mom make sure she uh hears everything and she's able to respond thank you thank you for having us and also Rea Hollingsworth is my cousin so we're all related here happy to be here to help oh see you took that away from me I was getting ready to mention that after anyway thank you for you know introducing that all right now Dr hansworth we need you a little bit more in the yeah there you go but before I ask you the same question uh m brown can you tell us how old you were when you started at uh Delaware State College how old were you how old were you oh oh I was 15 when I started delare State College because I had stayed out a year between elementary school and high school and I uh I guarantee my sister was a boarding student and she gave up her spot so that I could attend boarding school is a that a nice CEST thank you thank you Dr H you want me to repeat the question or you well I I have a question you know what can I tell you about my first year at the school at Delware State and how I felt about the opportunity to attend well first of all the opportunity was that I would be able to have a bed to myself and be able to take a shower because uh as Susan mentioned uh during the years that uh late 30s and 40s we did not have running water electricity and and indoor plumbing and so forth so when we got to Delaware State College High School uh that was the first year I was able to take a shower but um that was one of the things that I remembered that I thought was cute in addition to the fact that I you know Shar to bed but being away from home and being able to attend the same school that my mother had attended and to kind of complete her goal a little bit uh was really uh the first thing that was I guess first in my mind about going to Delaware state in addition to the fact that I did not want to work in the chicken fa Factory and the bean factory all my life and so I needed an education and always wanted to teach thank you how old were you when you went there I I was 16 because I had um had to repeat the second grade because that was the year that all of the brothers and sisters and our family uh had all the childhood communicable diseases and at that time you quarantine so we only got to go to school three months out of the year so uh we had to repeat the grades that we were in at that time which made me a little bit more mature than most of my classmates well thank you for that um we're GNA move on and um I'm really interested um Mrs Brown I'm interested in um you know what was the typical daylight when you were at the high school and and how did that day the routine of the day changed when you were in college at Delaware State well now when I was in high school I was a boarding student and we we had our first meal at uh 8 o'clock I think that's what it maybe it was seven because the the classes started at 8 o'clock and you had to be in Delaware hall for your first class at 8:00 so that that was my first year there what else did you do during the day what else did you do that day a typical day well um let see oh I know our first year we used to we had to go to uh Dr Jason was the religious leader at that time so Dr Jason on Sunday you had to go for uh well in the morning for Sunday school and then at 2 o'clock in the afternoon you had to go back and listen to Dr Jason talk and that was my first year but after that he left and we didn't have to do that anymore so what were your studies like what what was the rest of the day like you know your classes the what classes did you take oh um I think our classes start started at uh I'm trying to remember Engish at 8:00 in the morning and uh somehow uh you had to take uh English and science and math and social studies those were the four required that you had to take and uh I think my first year I I made my schedule so that all all my classes were in the morning and I think after after lunch we had lunch from 12 to 1 at 1 o'clock I think I had one class and then my day was through and uh by me being in class along I decided that I'd like to uh in delare Hall you gost there I would go upstairs and walk across and come back so the dean decided that I didn't they put me out for a while I had to go to the DOR and that was my first year so how did how did your classes I mean I'm I'm just really you know uh amazed that what you can remember from that far back because I wouldn't want to be the one to try to describe what I did in when I was because I I don't remember a whole lot I guess I just let that go but how did your dat did class well you see at that time the teachers taught in a high school and they also taught in college they were had they did they were double had to do double work and uh but um of course my classes as I said I'm I tried to get all my classes in the morning and have my afternoon free and uh I guess that's about it I just I enjoyed being there because as uh I guess I said before I I never had a bed by myself and and to be there with the running water electricity and well I just enjoyed being there did was the day any longer for you when you went to the college versus the high school what was your day like in college in college it was a little different it was a lot different I was day student I couldn't afford to stay on campus so I uh it was a man that uh lived in do that would pick up pick up children uh students and take them to school so he pick up the high school and the college students so that's I stay my sister lived in do so I stayed with her and I became a day student and that's how I got back and forth okay thank you because I my next question was going to be about uh how was the travel like to go back and forth school but Dr hollandsworth I noted you um the same question for you like what what was um High School like and how did that differ when you started at the college level State well as a as a high school student um we we lived in the in the high school D girls dormatory uh which was lockerman Hall the oldest building there on campus and the college students girls lived in lure Hall next door the high School building was a twoe two uh room dupon school behind low Hall I didn't have any classes at all in the high school building all my classes were in the college departments because I was a home economics major with a science minor so rather than having duplicate facilities on one campus and all of us actually attended the college classes though we had high school teachers at the time um interesting it was it was uh quite interesting actually going to to college because uh as Susan said you had to get up early in the morning make your bed clean your room and be ready for breakfast at 7 o'clock and classes at 8 and you only went back to your dormatory if you happened to have a study period in between which were very few and far between so you actually were working the whole time in classes and you had the academic classes with the home uh mik major I didn't have the business classes and those kind of things because I did not have enough room by taking the science laboratory classes as well as my science home economics classes so I just had a full day all day um so when did your typical day in classes when oh for classes usually at four o'clock but uh if you happen to need to uh go to the library to make up some work something then that was added to the day but our day was from 8 8 until 4: in the high school department um you also had if you didn't have a class they had a room they call the study hall and you could go there in between classes yeah but you know you were living on campus taking uh campus classes but it was almost like being at home as well um the thing that that I did after my classes were over of course was uh we had dinner usually at 5 o'clock and then you did your homework whenever you got an opportunity usually at night but because I was a hairdresser also I used to have my hair appointments after the classes were over so I made 25 cents for a press and curl and 35 cents for a shampoo press and curl and that helped me to buy my school supplies and my books and so forth that I needed um so you know I I'm just amazed when we're talking these these prices that so long ago I mean like it it's not even within the realm of reality in this time period to be talking I mean I I think now you know what women are paying 800 more for getting their hair done for what they were paying 25 and 35 C well I I actually did scheduled my faculty women's appointments uh after mostly after the S o'clock hour because we had to be in the dormatory at 7 o'clock when we were in high school oh and so if I had an appointment across campus to do one of the faculty women's hair then I got an excuse to be out on campus after 7 o'clock uh even though I was a high school student so I what about college oh the college we had to be in in the dormatory by nine o'clock and we had to stay on campus you could only leave campus uh on Tuesdays uh in the evenings and Saturday mornings to go if you had to go in town to shop or anything so you stayed on campus and campus was from the river the bridge there on State College Road out to the DuPont Highway if you went farther than that and got caught you likely would got expelled from school so you stayed on campus and followed the rules and did what you were supposed to do my my my I'm telling we're going to wrap up a little bit afterwards uh but I I'm just really amazed at the memory and what you all can recall on telling because I I just think back to my Jor High years and I can't even remember very much about that so um tell us what was um your travel like I mean I know you're on campus but I knew I know that you have to leave like for did you go home for holidays or I we could go home once a month actually we could go home once a month so we took the Short Line bus for 35 cents to go from Dober to Milford and we'd walk out to at the end of State College Road and the bus driver would pick us up and take us to Milford that was for you that was for me not for Susan not for me but uh we would go home we could go home once a month but usually we would stay on campus unless because campus life was a little bit more exciting than being at home and having to share a bedroom with your brothers and sisters and you know all those things you had to do but you went home as often as you could and on holidays always if you had to go home with one of your roommates or a friend you always have to have an excuse whether you that's right a letter from your mother saying that you could come go with that student and a letter from your friend's mother saying you could come to their house and even when we went home once a month we had to have a letter from our parents saying that we could come home so you know it was just like a different it was lifestyle when they were were on campus and well of course I only went home on holidays I never went home in between but the whole campus was a family because there were only about 200 people on campus including the custodians the workers the teachers and everybody so it's like a big family all right well I have some more questions and I get into a little bit more of that detail and so I want I want to ask both of you and either one of you can go first but uh um since we have uh Mrs Brown is a senior maybe I'll just let her go first uh can you tell us about your teachers and professors that you have when you were at the college you know what do you remember about them at the college said oh no at the high school and the college oh high school and college the teachers and professors at the high school and the college well the high school uh I guess I thought my math teacher Mr biley and uh I think Miss Clark taught us French those are the only two I can hardly remember and but still any from college any from college you yeah well as I said they taught high school at time I the teachers taught high school and college students so uh is any favorite teacher did you have a favorite a favorite teacher a favorite teacher favorite teacher who's your wait a minute that's that's my next question you go ahead you go ahead talk about I wanted to ask you favorite teacher no I wanted to you did you know were any of your teachers did any of your teachers you know like leave an impact on you um something that they did or said or the way they were that that really impressed you and and stuck with you and why why did that stick with you did any of your teachers impress you or have a good impact on you let me see maybe I think I I think the um the teacher one of the home economics teachers was very nice to me and she did have but of course she didn't have an impact for me to take home home economic stuff and I had uh for elementary we had a teacher that taught Elementary subjects Mrs was it violent see and and I guess she impressed me more than because I that's what I wanted to be in elementary teacher and the courses that we took on the elementary I think her name Miss Valentine I think it was her name I tell you you're doing a lot better than I would be doing right now Dr hollingworth what about you well as I said I was a home economics major and since we I was a home economics major all of my professors taught both high school and college and Dr Ruth laws was the uh chair of the home economics department and she also taught college and became my sorority sister as well or I became her sorority sister want but at any rate uh they took uh taught us like we were theirs their children and so they were really concerned about us getting a quality education because um at that time the folks used to think that because you were going to a segregated School you were getting an inferior education and that was not true with Delaware State College and I found that out when I went to University of Delaware but as as far as um as far as what they taught us and so forth actually I think Vinnie Winder who's also my soror sister eventually uh had the most impact on me because uh she had a sister who lived in asbery Park New Jersey and she told me that I could make more money if I went to Asbury Park and worked in the summer instead of going to rehov with beach to work and I did and I went there in 1956 and that was when I met my husband to be and we married while I was a junior in college so that was one of the and we were friends and instead just being teachers and so forth we became friends and I was her hairdresser of course and so we just became a part of the family right that helps being a headdress to your teacher I would expect well I certain made sure that I did a good job and I oh yeah you know you had to do a good job otherwise your grades were impact well I don't well I well speaking that I actually did have uh uh one teacher who actually Ruth Law who um caus my teacher who did when I did my student teaching uh my student critic teacher had given me an a for student teaching and Dr law has told her it change it to a b oh um I was a little bit perturbed about that but there's nothing I could really do about it except get upset but I did challenge her about it after I got out of college college and started working and course she had forgotten that she ever did that but I did because I had the results you know but you know when people do things like putting stumbling blocks in your way I always use them for stepping stones to do better so oh what a great thing I have to remember that one um so let this is a this is a a question I need both of you to really think you know really hard about you've been doing absolutely fantastic with your memory thus far and with what you can uh say about these things so um uh this is a little more mey questions so since you were attending a segregated School uh and it was doing the most formable Jim Crow years meaning that this is when Jim Crow was at his its peak um was there anything you can remember that was particularly difficult for you to deal with as a result of that period and why okay go ahead you say during the Jim Crow year that uh since you had been raised that way u i I really didn't have any problems with it because ever since I had could remember that was a part of our lives so I mean you learn to accept that and go on and that's what that's what I did right so you you didn't have any like really upsetting moments with dealing with uh the the laws that kept you at a second uh you know a second class citizen uh do you have any problems with the laws that kept you as a second class citizen the law did you have any problems with those laws no as a child no well as a child you know you accept what your parents accept so therefore uh of course as I say uh my father was a farmer and at that time there weren't many black Farmers so most of our neighbors were white so and we had no problems there okay Dr Hollingsworth what about you well for me I I because I'm a little bit younger than she is and I lived in in the town of Milford and I could actually walk from my house to Milford High School but when I got to the door I was a little bit too Brown to go inside the building so I had to make arrangements to uh get my education by leaving Milford coming to Booker T for 10th grade and then later at Delaware State College High School for 11th and 12th grade and the thing that really bothered me most about all of it was um paying my bills because I had to pay for transportation and um had to pay um my college bills and that was really very very difficult but I know that it was less than perhaps I would have had to pay if I had gone to the University of Delaware uh at the time I was in college my bill was $30 a month and I had a job in the dining hall and one of the offices that paid me $20 toward my bill which left me owing $10 every month so at the end of the year when it got time to take your finals I had to get special permission from the president in order to take my final exams even when I graduated I had not I had a billund and some dollar that I had to pay during the summer before I got my degree after I had paid my bill but I was able to participate in graduations but it was embarrassing and you just thought that you were the only one who was so poor you couldn't pay your bill and you couldn't do a lot of the things that we thought should have been done but of course later on we found out that we were just one among the number so um it it really did not hurt us in a way because it it teaches you how to sacrifice but it also teaches you how not to as my dad used to say you don't have take it low for anybody that you're as good the folks are as good as the people was what he would used to say so when I went to the store somebody didn't treat me properly I didn't buy anything from them I I wouldn't wear what they sold I wouldn't I wouldn't go back into the store and so forth so that was just my attitude about it and still is all right so um a lot of what has been said was um I guess U related to being on the campus but you know what was life like for you when you left the campus and had to go into the uh town I know you said that you had to stay on campus and you had to curfew at 7:00 when you were in high school and 9:00 when you in college but you know how often did you and the other students get to leave campus and you know did you leave campus and what did you do when you left campus well we left campus on Tuesdays and and uh Saturdays the school provided a bus trans the school bus to take us into Dover and you had an hour or two to do your shopping but you you went to the stores that catered to you uh rather than those who insulted you because your our dollars look the same color as everybody else has did and I can tell you an experence that I had as an adult here in do um that kind of stung a little bit I like hats and so I had gone to the hat store there on State Street to try on a hat and when I walked in the lady gave me a little skull cap and I told me to put it on I said what's this for and she said well I started stammering but you know that time we were colored folks colored people have oil in their hair and U you might get oil on the hat and if you don't buy so I said well since I'm not going to wear this I asked her first of everybody who came to the store had to do the same thing of course no they didn't only the black people had to put the skull cap on I said well since I'm not going to wear the hat with a skull cap on it I'm not going to buy the hat so and I'm G to tell everybody that I know not to not to patronize your store because you're insulting to your customers so that was just my attitude about it I did without a lot of things because of my mouth and stubbornness and all [Laughter] that yeah you told me about the the the expression your neighbors had those blank blank Rosses well that that was a family thing you know from my grandfather and all the way down we were known as those oh I can say that because it's also in the dictionary those damn Rosses and so we we were known of that but my grandfather said they always talk about the Dam Ross is this and damn Ross is with that you can't do anything with them he said but you do precious little without us so no that is great to know so you know you you develop confidence when you when you have parents and grandparents who help you to develop who you are and uh so were there students other students that since you the two of you did not go to school at the same time I guess you weren't even on campus at any point I was there during the time Susan was in college because she graduated from college the same year I graduated from high school oh that's correct right right she graduated college in for 1945 and you were in high school yes in 1945 see she took off years so that like kind of gave you chance to kind of catch up a little bit Yeah on those eight years difference that was there oh okay well we we're running late on the time and there's some other question I really want to get to uh one of them actually being you know were there any students that you befriended on campus that that uh were your friends then and and you all remained friends long after leaving College oh you want s to answer first oh yeah she can go ahead No I um well the friend I did I did uh have a friend from Louis that was that we were very clothes and um but she was my roommate and then I had another a lady from Milton was my roommate and but both of them are deceased and but I was older than both I was older than they but they they had passed on now one was from uh Milton and the other was from Louis Delaware were they Elementary School teachers or were they in a different different discipline did they become Elementary School teachers no no they they didn't now these were high school they uh in no see I was a day student in college but uh no they they didn't even they didn't go to college oh they didn't go to college those were high school friends but uh no they didn't go to college okay yeah but I had friends in high school who also were were my roommates and they also went to college with me as well and uh one of them remained we were both in the home economics department so we actually ended up teaching in the same school at William C Jason together and we remained friends until she passed away so uh she was from uh U Seaford Delaware and uh we all of us were friends everybody on campus was friendly with everybody else and everybody was supportive of each other if you needed some help from anybody everybody was willing to to give it to you and whether that was instruction or sharing something that they had it that was just like a big family and yes those those folks were were our friends and and stayed that way until until the end yes well I'm GNA ask you now a very difficult question for the two of you okay um have you ever thought about what you would have done with your life had you not been able to attend no Delaware State College no sir have not because I'm not going to pick chickens and pick beans and so forth I knew from the very beginning when I was actually about five four or five years old I knew I was going to be a teacher one way or another so it was a goal that was not going to be interrupted but some other stuff I mean even though I had to you know work and save money and pay and all that it was that was my goal rather than thinking of something else as an alternative career no I never I never uh well life would have been like I never thought about that because as she said I got to continue my education and oh and I'm just happy that we could could do that well I am certainly happy that you two were able to do that because look of how much of an impact you've had not only on probably your other family members but the state of d and and we're just that more fortunate that that has been your claim to fame and your your your value that you have contributed so only uh a few more questions and we can U rrap up here um what would you say Dr hollingworth was the most rewarding part of attending Delaware State College for color student and tell us also when did the uh the name change from Delaware State College for color students to just Delaware State College well but the the fact that as I mentioned earlier um we were known as the colored school and we were not supposed to have um sense enough to do a lot of things that whites thought you know we were put down as such even the state of Delaware had a law until 197 three saying that blacks only need enough education to read write and count a bit and my response to that is if that's all the education that I needed I didn't need to go to anybody's school because my parents had taught me that before we were five and six years old so but you know that was the most important thing and then of course when I went to the University of Delaware in 1952 and again 54 when they did not really want us there on campus and made no bones about it um I remember very well that uh when I went back in 1954 one of the people who was in a class in 52 too had gotten a job at the campus and had become my advisor in home economics and of course had access to my records and when she saw that I had made well she first told me that no matter what I did I couldn't get anything more than a be out of her class and I want to know why and she said well she had gotten B's in the classes that we had in 1952 and I had gotten A's and we were competing there with people who had gone to Cornell NYU and all those other places which let me know that Delaware state had prepared us well to compete wherever we went and so I found that to be true throughout I mean I don't have to stand back because my undergraduate education came from Delaware State College For Colored students of course it later Chang to Delware State College and late University so no I just don't think that um you know we were anywhere near as illiterate stupid dumb and we are not even today as some people think that we are Mrs Brown what was most rewarding for you attending the high school and the college it what what was most rewarding oh the most rewarding was uh in in um high school was being away from home and because as said live we lived on a farm and I wasn't very good doing farm work so that that was the most and then as a you know to be uh around of students my age and and to make new friends that was really important socializing all right um I'm I'm going to go back to a question I wanted to ask but um I I I just want our listening audience to really you know take in the fact that these are not just two um luminaries that have lived along long life and they're not just alive they are actually Lively I'm sure you can see that these two women are not just alive at this age they are Lively I I stress that because you know I know older people and and and they you know they've lived to mid90s and even 100 and they can't do anything for themselves they're just alive they're not lively at all so I hope all of you have appreciated this Lively conversation with these two uh uh seniors that really make us re rethink what it means to get old and and uh if you're in your 70s or your 60s and you're talking about you old just think about who we we're talking to right now my last my last question is having lived as long as you have what words of wisdom can you give us about living not only a long but a long active and healthy life well Brown uh with me I always feel as though you need to keep you active your body as well as your mind that is because of course I'm a reader I love to read novels and I read anything I get a hold of I just I'm just a reader and therefore I and then uh also believe in exercising so I do exercise every day and and I um always tried of course I'm I'm still driving so I so therefore I um alone I go somewhere every day get and then some I well I had the modern maturity that I go to and then I go and I go uh in in do and I walk sometimes I walk around there but most of the time I I do believe in exercising your mind and your body before before you before you answer Dr H I just want to you can pull that screen back over to Mrs Brown um I do want to say that I remember when I first met Mrs Brown she was 102 years old told me that for her birthday present she got a new car and I don't know how many people would be getting or even thinking about getting a new card did they offer you a fiveyear repayment license how many how long is your license for my license no no no not the license did you finance what did you finance the car when you bought car fin the car he's asking something else did you finance the car did you buy it oh oh no I paid cash for my car I got a new car and it's what 2018 and I paid cash for it yeah I no no financing no financing yeah no financing and my license are until 20 what is 20 what is this this is 2023 yeah LIC when when do you LIC I think they in 202 I think that's what they are still got a few more years a couple more years when you went to renew your license did they ask you did you make a mistake in the year you put down when you were born they ask you were you really the age you are no no they didn't I was surprised they didn't say anything they just really looked at my old license and what whatever do yeah gave me my new ones and I was shocked it was for nine years I for that long W it's just amazing um you told me that you used to drive to the Dover Mall and walk around the do Mall do you I do walk around do mall and and um you know I want everyone to know that not only that she drive but Mrs Brown backs into her driveway so that she can just pull out straight when she leaves from her home and I guarantee you there are a number of people who would not ever challenge the fact of their abilities to back into a space as opposed to just pulling right in so you know these are just some things I know and I when I asked Mrs Brown you know what was her Secret for being so Lively and healthy at at 102 103 she turned 103 like a couple months later but you know uh and I went to the birthday um it was like a a a caravan um that they had for her in in the in do around her neighborhood which was really F I was I was fortunate then uh to be a part of that and take uh you know several pictures but when I remember that you told me when I asked you what was the secret and you said keep it moving and that's essentially what youve had to say again today so Dr hollingworth now we want to have you give your words of wisdom to these youngans young well Susan of course has said the same thing you have to stay active you have to keep your mind and your body active that's true and you have to eat properly and keep your weight uh under control so that you don't get big and fat and sloppy and the other thing is we grew up in our household my dad and mother would not let us say the word can't because they said can't means can try so until you tried something you don't know whether you can do it or not so you just keep on trying and that's why now I'm still doing workshops and parliamentary procedure and workshops on how to find your genealogy and whatever else somebody needs me to help them with and you know I do what I can and I'm not exercising quite as much as Susan is but I do keep it moving well I think both of you are doing tremendously well and uh again Dr Hollingsworth you know um congratulation and thank you you know happy birthday we will be getting to that a little later but you know it's just hard to look at the two of you and actually think of you as is being over 80 if even that old and and I tell you I I had a I clipped a news article out of the do is it the do post that the newspaper uh of Mrs Brown standing on one leg to show what balance and one leg one leg can you imagine how old were you in that when you did that article can stand on one leg still such you can still stand on one leg you can still stand on one leg oh my good you know I hope that's my my daily exercise is standing on one leg I hope those of you are listening into this webinar that you are gaining some real wisdom and knowledge and to really appreciate that you know I guess you got to just come from good jeans to be able to be as healthy Lively as these two women are I'm telling you it's it's a lot we can learn and it's a lot you have given to not only uh to your family and friends but to the state of Delaware um so we're g we're gonna pause now and kind of not pause actually but we're going to like switch uh I'll strip a little bit and and go to some questions from the audience and we have a few and uh hopefully we can uh get to them and uh everyone can be uh satisfied hopefully with your your responses so we're going to start with the first question it says uh did the rest of your siblings attend high school did the rest of your brothers and sisters attend high school no no one I I thought you see I'm I'm the only of high school I'm the only one I had a niece that they your sister got to her high school diploma oh that's right my sister didn't finished high school didn't they yeah they finished and that's right Geneva finished and Florence finished high school and uh but U I was the only one to go on I was guess I'm the only one in my intermediate family that finished college so um my niece uh before I leave you um I I did want to ask um oh I first let me just State this well I guess I do have to add are you the last of your family your living um last living I'm the last I'm the last uh of my Living member of your last one yes I had two younger brothers and uh I think I was number 10 or something right there because my mother had 12 I came from a big family yeah no one of you was so happy to go to delare well I have one sister who's still living yeah and uh but she she has Alzheimer's and so she's in a facility but um and there were how many yeah but uh she she's my youngest sister I'm 10 years older than she and I did have one brother who finished college with his uh he ended up with a master's degree and another sister who ended up with a an associate degree um but all of us had businesses that we could take care of ourselves so we didn't have to depend on somebody to take care of us okay I I do want to say something about Mrs Ross's uh family and and just her um her lineage here um her ancestors were slaves in doorchester and Caroline counties in Maryland and there were distant relatives of the fame abolitionist Harriet Ross tman so you all need to look that up as well uh rea's Mother's ancestors were free uh Africans and their ancestry can be traced back to the 1790s imagine that how many of you can trace your family Roots all the way back to the 1790s and I also want to say that uh uh re and her siblings were taught values that governed and United the family and the family always ate dinner together and I I think that's one of the things that a lot of black families you know we were told you got to eat together I mean everybody got to be there for dinner otherwise you may not even get any dinner because once they finished you know all of the rub is gone re and her siblings were taught as she said to read to write to count before they even entered the first grade and she went to segregated schools uh in Milford and not only were they taught to count but Reas said they were taught to count forward and backward to 100 yes I I don't know too many people that teach their kids to count backwards but we say our ABC's backwards too we had we could say we had to say our ABC's backwards too from Z A to Z and just as fast one way as the other so you know and I do want in our heads you know we couldn't use a pencil and paper to do figures so you had to do it in your head yeah okay and uh another thing that I want to say about Dr Hollingsworth is that you know she's the second eldest of seven children and she was always expected to take care of her other siblings and um she help instill in her siblings the beliefs and the values that the parents taught so she was like the I don't know what do you call it like a a supervisor over a kid the secondary parent or you know uh but she was there to uh to do that and even at an early age she was encouraged to become a responsible individuals to do chores and once they reached certain age they had to own their own business so I yeah I don't know a lot of parents that teach your kids to to try to to to get a business and to own a business so anyway let me go into the questions right now I just want to mention that in case that uh primes any questions in anybody's mind you know in knowing that information so um to to both of you did any of your friends have to stay home and work rather than pursuing a college degree and did some African-American students from Sussex County have to work on their fam's Farm instead of going to college during the 30s and 40s yes uh there were some students who only completed the education that was offered in their in their area and in Sussex County and Kent County most of the um schools for blacks ended either at sixth grade seventh grade there were only two schools uh that I can remember that went to the 11th grade in Sussex County and the rest of them went to the 10th grade or nth grade so when they completed the education that was offered in their Community their parents really could not afford always to send them away to college or to finish High School somewhere which meant that when I was teaching at Jason I had some parents who came over and I encouraged them to actually come back to William C Jason and finish and get their high school diploma and uh so some of actually parents graduated with their student with their children same time daddy wasn't able to go to high school oh yeah so or your brothers your brothers had to stay and work on the I was the only one you were the only one who could you and this the girls and and then I had a niece [Music] thater but all your friends and everybody else that you knew also was doing the same thing yeah so wait a minute Mrs Brown you had uh indicated to me during your interview two years ago that two of your sisters had attended Delaware State College for color students so neither of them finished was so that so A Geneva finished lawence and I had two sisters that finished at the high school but they didn't go to college okay so they did toool well my older sister went to nursing school she became a nurse okay okay uh next question is were there blackowned businesses in do where DSU students could eat do you remember the name of those restaurants in do were there places where black students could eat in do was it business but downtown do there were you know the black beer gardens and no like I said I went down a place with uh a person that a black man that had a restaurant and that's the only place at that when I was coming along that was the only place for uh black people we could not eat in any restaurant except in downtown or any other restaurant at that time there was one restaurant that was near Booker te school that U we could go into and get a sandwich or candy or something like that but no we had to depend on whatever you cooked for yourself or you got delare steak yeah well one ask a question for you Dr holling were um uh this person asked um they graduated from University of Delaware in 1972 in hch and she says my in my area of Interest was textile science I'm interested to know more about your homech curriculum and if you had a major Within homech I did have a major within home economics as a matter of fact when I went in 1954 it was to try to get my masters in home economics that was before I got the job as a guidance counselor and this woman that I told you who became my advisor uh would not read my thesis after I got the job as a counselor because she said I was deserting the FI so even though I still have my thesis completed she would not read it and give me my degree in my master's degree in home economics but what I did as a result of that this was another stumbling block that I used as a stepping stone I was going to lose all the credits that I had earned when I was working on both my MERS in home economics when I went into counseling and I was going to lose those credits because I had to then start working on a masters in counseling so I went to the Department of Education and Dr Elizabeth Lloyd was the chair of the department and I explained my situation to her she said I don't I said I don't think it's fair she said I don't either we're having a department Al meeting this afternoon I will take your case before the board so they changed the law as a result of my running my mouth again so I got when I got my masters in counseling I got a masters plus 30 so I got a dual salary increase at that time and changed the law for everybody else who came after me isn't that great isn't that great but this question is for both of you and Mrs Brown wanted you go first you probably have touched on this already but this person asked uh well let me um I'm trying to I'm trying to um to see whether or not I mention the person's name when I'm asking a question Alex are you still there can you uh give me some guidance on it I I am here um I don't think there's an issue people are allowed to um ask questions anonymously so I'm hoping it's okay um if they have put their name down to to say who asked the question okay so um the the last question that I had U read I'll come back to the but uh uh Jean asked what gave you both a love for learning we didn't want to be dumb stupid and then our parents had really yeah our parents really you a love for learning our parents had really started teaching us from the time we were in the Cradle and so we knew that um you know you had to read and write and count in order to be able to Pro progress in this life and you know you had to learn how to count money uh even if you didn't go to college you know you would be Mighty stupid if you got somebody would hire you out and not pay you what they were supposed to so you had to learn how to count money so it's you you needed an education and so I've always known from the time I could remember and I can remember things back to the time I was three years old but uh you know education was a part of our our life expectations that was part of the upbringing all right Mrs Brown what about you well I had a teacher that I admired and uh a after she taught that was I decided that I wanted to be an elementary uh teacher so that was really what uh helped me to uh want to continue my education because as say I wanted to be an elementary teacher you work that works okay um someone asked anonymously have you recently visited the campus of um Delaware State College and now University and if so what changes are you pleased with what you seen and what changes concern you that has been made to the school well yes I go to out there all the time because I uh Delaware state is still within walking distance of my house and so I go out there and I'm active with the Alumni Association um as a matter of fact I'm a parliamentarian for the National dsaa umni Association and so we go out there and do whatever it's necessary you know to speak to the classes and help the students the thing that bothers me most though is that uh they don't seem to have the same rules for developing personally in terms of what you dress how you wear what you look like and things like that and I realize those things have changed but the old home economics teacher in me said that if it's you can't P pinch an it if you cannot pinch an inch it's too tight and you don't expose anything that should be covered up you know so unless but anyway those are just my biases uh Mrs Brown have you been back to the campus recently because I mean you don't live that far from the campus I haden't been back to the campus where did I go well you went last year went last interviews because I can say I don't visit the I don't go to any thing they have on the campus now of course one reason is uh I'd have to hire a driver so and the campus has changed so I'm lost when I get up there so therefore I don't visit the campus oh anymore you go don't go for any uh things they have [Music] there okay um there's another question here that's anonymous uh were there ever racial incidents with DSU I mean with the the students at the uh uh College in high school when you were there uh that involved the do community none that I know of I was never involved with any of them and I don't remember anybody being involved with them because pretty huh they kept you on campus it kept us on campus for one thing we only when we went on campus we often had the bus the bus driver there you know so and then you didn't want to do anything that's going to uh put you in a bad light with you know you wanted to be safe respected and respectful and so that's how you carried yourself and you know if you had to have a conversation with somebody for me anyway I would say what I needed to say but I tried to smile when I said it so that took out some of the sting okay okay uh another question here um um Alex if you can just jump in a minute because um I'm looking it seem like we had more questions and some have come falling off can you tell me what's happening with that yep so once we I've been keeping track once you have asked a question and it's been answered it's just been moved to the answered tab so if you kind of see so the ones that are open right now are the ones that we haven't gotten okay okay so was there a neighbor this is another question here was there a neighborhood or subdivision in North over near the campus where DSU professors and faculty lived yes uh there are faculty um buildings uh houses all on State College Road from the uh Bridge down to almost the railroad track before they built the apartments there those were the faculty houses and they also had the faculty houses on campus and so uh in both places they yeah we could go there if we had a reason to you know we could go to a faculty person's house to do hair or something of that sort but um you always have dinner have permission yes to have dinner and the president would Al when I was there if you'd go over there uh he would also say give na me give re something to eat so you know yeah um m were were you aware did they have falcony buildings um buildings on the campus for the Falon they had faculty building huh yes but of course I never visited them but well you never got invited for dinner and they had the faculty I guess most of the faculty lived on the campus didn't they yes or in in or live near there oh okay you said that Dr uh uh Jason um was the president of the school when you were there Mrs Brown was Dr Jason president when you were there no look who was your president when you were at Delaware look look what what I'm trying to say now Dr Jason was a little bit before my time there my mother was there Dr grle was there one I think my first year when I was in the ninth grade Dr Jason was our religious leader and we had to go to uh uh services on Sunday afternoon but that was only the first year after that we didn't so said president G Dr grle was the president when you were there yeah Dr grle was the president yeah where grle Hall comes from huh uhhuh name brly H yes okay and is that William C Jason library for Dr Jason yes okay and and dror who was president when you were there when I went there was Dr Greg Howard D Greg Greg okay no buildings on campus I buildings on campus in named in his honor uh there may be I don't know of any that I can think of right off hand no well I've been all over the camera I don't remember seeing a building this name but he was he and his wife were pretty you know they did all right with me okay okay well I I just uh uh Alex does that uh conclude with the audience questions I think actually so we've got one more in chat um two in the Q&A I'll just acknowledge so um less questions but but more comments so so Darlene is saying thank you for an informative discussion um and then and then Carlton is impressed that you know that y'all are still driving and staying active so that's it's it really is it's it's great great to hear um and then so in the chat here the question is um well wait a minute before you get before you get be uh beyond the the driving I want to say that both these ladies not only drive but they drive new cars they're not old cars like they are they are new car I mean you know Dr houndsworth drives a BMW uh what is it a SUV SUV yeah BMW SUV and I mean she can handle that car too and um and then Mrs uh Brown she drives a subar subar and what year is the Subaru what year 20188 so look these these women not trying to just put put around they they really on the drive they they're doing serious business with their cars well you know we can't depend on the young people they're too busy doing all the stuff they want to do so you take matters into your own hand okay we are coming down to that matter go ahead Alex I sorry and apologize for interrupting but you can go back to what you're about to say sure thing so the last question I'm seeing here is um did either Dr hollingworth or Mrs Brown attend the William C Jason School in Georgetown and if so can they talk a little bit about that experience I didn't attend I Tau there yeah they both went to the uh you know Delaware State College for color students for both high school and college so no they didn't you can talk about your time teaching at William C Jason William C Jason was not built until 1950 that was the first High School South of Wilmington for black students in 1950 and William Henry opened in 1952 and lisis L reading in 1953 and so by that time I was already out teaching working and so forth so uh but I did get a job teaching at William C Json in 1954 and I taught there until the schools integrated in ' 66 when I got a job as a guidance coun well since sorry go ahead um at williamc Jason actually it was the only School in all suex County where all of the faculty had degrees because we found that the a lot of the white schools had people who were teaching on um associate degrees and some of them were even teaching with a high school certificate but at William C Jason every faculty member there had a degree or master's degree and our curriculum was actually broader than a lot of the other white schools in the county which meant which is why when I was president of the faculty before they were integrated that I suggested that instead of having William C Jason become Deltech uh that they become it become the high school for the fex county in that Central Area because we were a better school than others were so did they happen you do know it didn't happen because they had already made they had already made the agreement before they brought it to our attention that that this was going to be the uh the school that would be the first um Technical College in the state of Delaware and it's was kind of like a we'll see how this works before we open others in the state so they had already decided that the only thing that we made sure that they did not do was to tear down the old William cjon school and change his name because uh even though it's Deltech the main building there is the William C Jason High School good good all right well we're at that magic hour where we need to close out I've been having a lot of fun I hope you all had fun because I tell you it's been a pleasure to have have you reminisce it's been a pleasure I I just want everyone to just really focus on the fact these women are not just a liing they are Lively they are they have a memory like a an elephant and telling you I I I I am just so overwhelmed with what they're able to deliver today and uh I just want to remind you all let you know that uh the oral history um project that I completed in 2021 has their Auto um interviews online as well as a transcript of that interview so I encourage you all to go to the U uh state of Delaware the um site that they have uh and matter of fact um Alex are do you have access to that site um for the um that's going to be one of our presentation at 3 o'clock today do you know whether they will be posting that or uh should we just invite everyone to come back at 3 and listening to the uh story mapping for the uh Duan College schools yeah absolutely I hope I hope you all can join us at three for that presentation and I'm sure yeah if there yeah I'll make sure that if we can share links and things like that well we will absolutely do that and you can listen to these young ladies again and and and so much more that they can tell you about not only their time as students but also their time as teachers and I think that's the the the number one thing that they talk about the years uh teaching which which is an exciting thing for all of us to uh hear about so uh Alex I think we're ready for that special moment here okay that sounds good so we just wanted to take our last few minutes to wish Dr hollingworth a very happy birthday so first what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna play a little song and then while I do that I think I actually have found a way I'm going to um give our attendees the opportunity to unmute themselves so after we play a song um we would like to sing Dr Hollingsworth happy birthday so give me one second here oh what about the big band yep that's gonna come first okay so we just wanted to kind of share our little thank you thank you so much thank of course okay so now we're gonna play our special song and I'm going to work on giving folks the opportunity to unmute so we can sing ourselves afterwards that's it 24 people am I able to share screen if so I can um I guess I can U um play that here we go okay so I should be folks happy you should be able to unmute yourselves now if you'd like to join us in singing happy birthday to Dr all right ABD do you want to kick us off that it I'll play it again because uh Alex were you aware that I was playing it oh I just played it myself but do you want to I think we should be able to sing ourselves now so those muted can sing so do you want to start us off with happy birthday and we can't hear the music and did you share sound Oh I thought I did oh geez look at me and now I can't even share oh my gosh I didn't okay oh wait you said you can't hear the sound we couldn't hear the song oh wait a minute all right so let me let me uh see what H I think I have to put in here um how to share that oh share sound okay there we go okay okay it's not letting me why it's not it's not letting me click on same here not letting me hit on share sound yeah I'm getting the [Music] same I'm getting the same notification it's very strange oh wait minute okay I got is it working okay yeah yeah okay let me move this one of my classmates was Grace Bell but she died see her name is up here so I don't know somebody else in not is it working for you Aba yeah it's PL did did you get you said you you disabled the link no disabled the link these professionals have technolog fine no all right well how about this let's why don't you play it well let's I think I did but I guess nobody heard so um let's sing happy birthday I know a couple people are unmuted all right okay on on three everyone on a one and a two and a threey [Music] birthy birthday toy birthday dror be many more thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you than you happy birthday thank you all right well we are I think that wraps us up here thank you so much Abdullah thank you so much Dr Hollingsworth Mrs Brown and Dr Overby we really appreciate you being here and thank you for being willing to share your stories and experiences with us I think it's it's just a really special opportunity so we're so grateful to you for your time thank you so much for asking us it was our honor to be ask thank you glad thank you very much all right well I just want to invite everybody our next session starts at45 so we're gonna just shut this room down give our next presenter um a chance to get on and get ready and then at 1:45 you can use the same Zoom join us all right thanks again thank you I guess I'll close it out