Delirious

[Music] hello and welcome to episode 536 of fergo on the freak I'm that from leag Project Andrew Ferguson you can follow me on Twitter at Andrew rlp Jo as always the Glorious League freak you can also find on Twitter League freak how you going there mate I'm going pretty well Andrew I've just watched the penth Panthers win a game against South Sydney got to say you self check yourself there very early why you just you're about to explain how you were feeling and you at pause very well yeah tell us what you really think well normally I'm great but no people always think I'm [ __ ] angry yeah yeah you're angry you're obviously angry what's got your goat if I had a [ __ ] dollar you know what makes me [ __ ] angry is when people say you're [ __ ] angry it's like no I wasn't [ __ ] angry until you started with your [ __ ] [ __ ] anyway um I'm going pretty well how are [Laughter] you yeah I'm pissed off what about um let's see let let's go with the obvious stupid [ __ ] thing and that is Michael chamus article about the West Tigers splitting apart yeah well he did a big uh interview with the old what is he a 79y old dude in the hospital which one was that that's the the uh Bal man dude that he talked to he was in the hospital when he talked to him is this the guy is this the guy who was Harry tribu uh the block who was always sponsoring from meritan apartments no no it was the whoever the balain [ __ ] dude was that sort of was not happy in that article oh Gary Leo yeah might have been him yeah all right yeah shall we go through the article yeah let's go through the well we should give some backstory so the the headline was that b m is no longer happy with the joint venture and they're going to pull out of the joint venture which is like losing a a toenail that you slammed about three weeks ago and it falls off and it says I'm out of here it's like all right so given the status of the B main club in the joint venture I think the entire toenail might be too much yeah yeah you know sometimes you might I mean I get this at work anyway instead of actually just having the whole thing come off yeah I'm talking fingernails now you get a bit of a split down the middle where if it's just a if was just a little bit too long and you just catch it a little bit in the wrong spot when you go to pick something up the fingernail twist you get a little split down the middle it just becomes inconvenient you got to try and cut it back really hard to get to get to the point where the split stops yeah so it doesn't start catching that's kind of where we're talking the clipping that you've cut off that's the bit that's gone now we're free now EXA we're going to create a whole new human being from this tiny little sliver of nail no it's just not going to work um here he is he says the balain board is set to call a crisis me to discuss removing the club from the joint venture with western suburbs in an ambitious bid to go alone they could spill the end of the West Tigers now never has the word ambitious done so much heavy lifting in an entire paragraph that's very good point my goodness um in a move that will send shock W through the NRL it won't frustrated Bain they're not directors are preparing to call a vote no they're not on their involvement in the merger and be concerned no there isn't over decisions being made by the clust majority owner no there isn't the homman barns group now the homman barns group are basically West Ashfield I know they're separate to that but it's basically coming from the same area yeah um I'll stop interrupting the this Artic is just stupid um so B main director and former player Gary Leo told this m head D that's in there see now you know it's important on Thursday that he and his fellow board members had in quotation marks lost faith in hbg and was calling on fellow directors to endorse the end of the trouble joint venture 25 years after it was established to what end well BS yeah like like it's I just don't understand what they are really aiming for here because and look I don't I think that this is just some upset old balain people who just been silly you know um because like if the joint venture split it would be the West Tigers run by West Ashfield which is what it is exactly right now like I think if B main said we want to change the socks the team uses I don't think they'd have the power to do that um they'd probably get approval to increase the amount of black so long as it came at a reduction in the amount of orange on the sock yeah yeah yeah that's about all that's about all they get yeah so um yeah this it say Leo said I really believe the time has come for us to step aside and resurrect the balain Tigers we've got more of a following than the west side of the merger to be honest we have lost faith in them we're getting lart oal upgraded sorry sorry it's been waiting for a [ __ ] upgrade since 1960 I think he's referring to the $40 million that the albanesi Governor is tipping into it let's be clear that's not going to be an upgrade that's going to be repairs and it's not going to be all the repairs let's also make that clear yeah and and as I said with the Panthers stadium which I was right about nothing's happened until they start digging [ __ ] dirt that's right um we're getting lockal upgraded and we could play there every second week now here comes the moment of truth in his quote okay if we can find the right backers you know he'd be a good backer [ __ ] West Ashfield huh we want a shot at returning to the NRL I don't think the NRL will continue to allow the West Tigers to operate with the Tigers name without any involvement from Bain I really do believe the NL competition needs a Tigers team and not the West Tigers so he is if the NRL is going to say oh no that part the token part of the joint venture has decided to walk away from this and the people that always had the money and the members and the Juniors uh they're still there though but we're going to take their IP off them that's been established for 25 plus years because we think this other mob who doesn't have anything maybe one day they'll be in the competition that is so stupid you know that's somebody that that's somebody that is is clinging to something that's unrealistic and if and that sort of person shouldn't be on a board of any sort I think so I think there's still more to the article I think what's happened here is Michael chamus is either bored or stupid well isn't he the one that started writing all the articles about all these nro players that they like oh they unhappy and then the players were like I'm not unhappy I think so yeah right so as I said I'm giving him the benefit of doubt I'm going to say he's either bored or stupid he can pick either one okay intelligent is not one of them though oh no right um good at his job is also not another one no he's journalist he's not good at being a journalist none of them are he's even failed of that yeah so because what he's done here is he's gone right what's what's a non-story I can try and turn into a story and who is there someone who I can find that is disgruntled with an issue you know something old and then he literally called the guy in hospital and then call him up and then have a conversation with them to get them to express their Viewpoint and then and then try and Link in the most feeble way possible any sort of extenuating circumstance stance which might add some sort of validity or Credence to the story and so here's that part now the current licensing agreement between the NL and the club expires at the end of the season if I was if I was the uh West Ashfield Bal main would be out I'd say you Wen out you're out I don't know see I I think it's better to be a massive troll especially when you're the daddy you're the one with the cash I just got if I was West as I just got to and say yeah put us there for another 10 years for the West Tigers what are you going to do about B man look well that's exactly what I would do I would say look I'd relieve BAL of their obligation to them no no leave them in there they like they got no option they have to just come along with it oh yeah so just drag them in but like it it is silly to think that the NRL are going to would would say that the West Tigers would have to change their logo because Bal man wasn't involved in like the the part of the joint venture is so tenuous it is so minute it is tokenism and you know they're just lucky that their logo was the more marketable one it was between a tiger and a magpie and you know you put both of them in front of a 5-year-old and say which one's cooler they're always going to go for the tiger and that's why it was a tiger like if the West magpies were called the wests I don't know frogs like [Laughter] frogs right though but yeah and that's the only reason like you know also especially at the time of the merger and let's not go too bug down and how how [ __ ] the the financial aspect of Balman is now because it's non-existent yeah at the time of the mer Balman were the ones bringing the cush to the table when the merger first began yeah and they had the better roster um and they're looking after the pathways for juniors a bit better than westw at the time mhm um a lot of circumstances out of the outside of the playing football aspect goes anyway B main is what led to them being completely broke in Alli um so that's why they're in the situation they're in now but right now they are in a sh uh position where they don't have a leags club they don't have a reserve grade team in the new sou Well's Cup right they they've got next to no presence as a football club in senior football actually I don't they have any pres of Senor football other than their tenous leers with the West Tigers their whole idea is like but we've got lart oal and you could add another team in [ __ ] in a syney how cool would that be everyone wants that so here's the here's the issue that chamus has failed to consider when writing this article because as I said he's either Bor or stupid and I'm tend to leaning towards him being just stupid is if the West tigers or the West magpies no no no if the West Tigers don't do not get approved for the NRL license mhm the NRL is not going to say okay West magp we want you to take up the license they're going to the NL is going to go you beauty we've got rid of another Sydney team yeah let's get another team we're going to put Perth in now yeah and that's what will happen but the idea that the NRL is the sort of competition where you know a license comes up and they've got currently a 17 team competition that they've got to provide to a broadcaster and the license comes up for any Club could be anyone could be the Panthers and the N goes you better justify yourself or we'll get rid of you it's like that just isn't how the the system works like the licensing system is there so that if you get a team that is in like a crazy D like I think of something like say the Newcastle kns when they had an owner that the NRL understood it was probably best if they weren't the owner anymore yes they were able to transfer the license to someone else yeah it it's or that you know so that's how that's what the license is the license is basically a legal thing that there's an ownership of that license and it can be transferred if needed but it's not an actual like it's not like a car license where you've got to keep going back and getting your eyes tested you know right like year the NRL has to provide broadcasters with the 17 team competition they're not just going to get rid of the West tigers at the end of the year there would have to be something even worse than the West tigers have been which is pretty damn bad MH so this idea that this license issue is an issue at all is [ __ ] ridiculous in its own right correct like it is just a formality and so if the NRL said right if you if the magpies and the targets can't come to an agreement about being the West Tigers anymore then we're just going to say you know what we don't need any more Sydney teams Canterbury can take the western suburbs region the Bulldogs are going go you [ __ ] Beauty yeah and they say we'll let the we'll let Perth be the Tigers yeah and Perth can decide to be whether between being the tigers or the Bears we know which they'll lean there yeah um that's all will happen they'll just go we'll just take another team outside of Sydney because that's what they need to do that's exactly what they will do they're not going to sit there and muck around and just let balain come back because balain wants to be um and you don't even have to understand NRL at its absolute CT I recognize that I speak to people here in Victoria who heard about this being in the news and they said to me what's this all about and so I say to them well this just basically this what I just said there and they go how many clubs are there in Sydney that's what they immediately go to yeah because they they they team they pair it up with the similarities that you've got in Melbourne you know how many AFL teams you got in Melbourne basically too many There's an opportunity to get rid of one and put one somewhere else in Australia [ __ ] yeah let's do that yeah that's what they do they did it with the you know the lines down here moving up to brisman so on so forth you know they just start mve them out where they can um so yeah it's it's utter utter bolics the whole [ __ ] thing yeah um and I think that Bain have anything at all whatsoever to give themselves as you know some sort of [ __ ] massive thumbs up we should be the ones that get the next body license over anybody else is delusion Beyond delusions it's insane yeah it's I mean the but the balain tigers are all but gone yeah and see well this breaks it down say the Bain side owns 10% of the West Tigers through the other 90% owned by the hom and Barnes group of which 30% of that group is owned by the magpies so that means that 60% of the West Tigers is basically owned by the hom and barns groupwest Ashfield hbg acquired 15% of Bain's previous year in 2019 when it agreed to pay off Bain's $3.2 million debt to the NRL you want to go on your own that club that that group that you don't want to be a part of anymore and you don't like paid off your $3.2 million debt yeah how's about how's about hbg the home and bance group go to Gary Leo and say you know what that 3.2 million of the Bain's debt how's about you pay us back for that you personally we've got no issue with the B Tigers if you got an issue with us you can just give us our money back yeah and we we'll happily let you go about your business um now I'm not going to read the rest of that [ __ ] garbage the Bain chairman Danny saon came out the day after this stupid story came out he said that's not true we're not we don't plan on leaving the West tigers at all I'm not surprised um Danny St said I've spoken to my board bman is fully supportive of the joint venture with the H and barns group the West magp group and more importantly the West Tigers we want nothing but sustain success for the West tigers and we have a wonderful working relationship with h and barns I spoken to every single board member and every board member has told me if is not true we are solid as a rock I really believe the time has come for us to step aside and resurrect the B main Tigers said Leo um that's just a mad mad line yeah like with what you know the crazy part is this is crazy bit Tiger's Legend Benny Elias said of Gary Leo's comments that they are Delirious when you can't get Benny Elias on your side on a madap scheme you know it's too far he is Captain Delirious that's right he's even he's going g g just E's up buddy okay just just settle down yeah it's it's uh it was silliness and um you know and everyone pointed that out and I'm sure the journalist involved is very proud to have that on his [ __ ] list of stories that he's made up now the other part of the story that comes out of this and probably linked to it as well was there was a report also during the week that the uh West Tigers chairman bario Farrell would have to reapply for his position and apparently got a bit salty and suky about it and I don't want to be with the club anymore we going to reapply it's kind of how boards work pal yeah they're not jobs for life this isn't politics man yeah this is uh that's that's how the job is and you know so not that I've had any issue with barrier Farrell up to this point but if he's going to car like that he can [ __ ] off as well yeah just go away yeah um you know anyone can be a chairman we've seen that so yeah especially the West Tigers oh yeah spuds hats we we've had them all man like when you think of some of the chairman of the West Tigers I can remember when the worst thing you could say about the chairman it was like that remember the one that used to love just having morning tea after morning tea was that no that wasn't Steve no was it Steve no no no no Steve Steve no wasn't too bad no it was Mariana go oh she used to love a morning tea oh [ __ ] I forgot about it Club was ran into the ground but she would be at every morning tea see Steve O is one of those blocks who um pred himself on his ability to fix a [ __ ] up so he he helped West tigers turn themselves around at the very start when they had the whole Terry land Saga when he was coach there he sort of helped him get back on you know back back heading in the right direction and moving forwards and he moved on from that role I think he went to the roosters when they were struggling I know they went to the sharks during the when they got absolutely pounder ball of the uh um Shan Flanigan yeah you know the ases yep the assada Scandal that's the one he was there when that kicked off and they were struggling like all hell and he jumped in there as an interim CEO to help them get over that process and he helped them through it told them to accept whatever punishment was coming their way just accept it instead of dragging it out and so we can just put it behind us and move forward which is always the smartest thing to do yeah especially when you're [ __ ] guilty of all charges so it was uh he he's he's always been pretty good in that area but yeah is it Marina or Mariana I can't remember I think it was Mariana guy uh I think that was her name she was yeah it's been a very it's been quite a list that the West tigers have put together really yeah it's amazing how people still think you're the angry one you look at all the [ __ ] I've had to doal with from my club yeah it is [ __ ] even when you go back and think of the Matthew ell days you go yeah even they didn't last as long as the [ __ ] that the taret have gone through no it was it was a blip it a [ __ ] blip we come second one year under that goofball do you know what found because I've been clearing out some old [ __ ] that I've been keeping for years and years and when he was the coach I was I used to uh buy and sell a lot of stuff on eBay right yep and one day I saw a thing and it was like a sports fans voodoo doll right and I was going to put together a funny article where I made into Matthew Elliott and uh and I once I got it in hand I was like this feels a bit too real now I feel like I'm crossing some weird line here this is gone too far so I didn't end up doing it but I found it the other day and it it brought back memories and uh so I drank herbal tea I I got bought some we Chimes um I I burned some incense and it was just uh [ __ ] I hated every second of it oh that sounds hard could you imagine me and Matthew Elliott in the same room yeah all of those all of those suggestions that you keep denying about you being angry would absolutely get pissed up the wall yeah they would like we I reckon me and Matthew Elliott would be the complete opposite of things like he'd be like don't you ever think like the world is all connected and we're all one and stuff and I'd be like that sounds like [ __ ] all I could think of if you two are in the same room together yeah it would remind me of possibly a Mortal Kombat uh fatality one of those gruesome ones from the more recent GES where he might be just slamming his head into the ground over and over and over again until his brain gets sucked out cuz it's just into the into the dirt you get up and walk away go I'm done with this [ __ ] thing I feel like it the whole the whole incident would just remind me of a Mike Tyson quoted Prince conference that I can't [Laughter] repeat yeah so go through all of his press conferences you'll eventually find one oh dear uh what else has been going on in the world uh well the panthers run is over I've been seeing a lot of that lately and uh talking about like the the poor I think it's fair to say they've been in poor form recently um they've obviously lost um Nathan cley until the finals and it might be wig to of the finals if they're there so well they' they've secured a top four space uh place tonight night so they'll definitely be there for at least week two of the finals but um it's interesting to see a team at this point of a run like they've had because I I've never seen it so everything is new and you're kind of uh waiting it's weird you're waiting for their run to end and you're always wondering like is this How It Ends like is this the thing and you don't know I don't know I've never seen before so it's interesting to watch um it's sad to watch as well definitely but you know how sad can you get when you've when you've seen all of the amazing stuff they've done and experienced it as a fan so um it's they're it's an interesting point because I think I was looking at a thing where the the Melbourne storm on one of the top sides uh and I don't know how far back they went I think it was only since 1998 random date I don't know why they picked 1998 hang on quotation marks NRL error yeah yeah that sort of thing where it was um their biggest loss was over the whole season had been eight points so far and I think the the top clubs were like penrith had their biggest loss uh in 2020 was like six points which is outrageous and I can't remember if what the top club was are they saying that as in the biggest loss this year is eight points and that's the best that's ever that's the best any club's ever done since 98 no no it was like the third or fourth best I think it was the four best I think it equaled what penth had done over the last couple of years but then penth had also lost by like only six points um as was their Biggest Loser margin in 2020 and but I feel like there was someone ahead of them and I just can't remember who it was though right yeah okay yeah the storm have lost by their biggest loss issue was seven points to the Sharks yeah yeah the Sharks never the Sharks would never be the top eight side the med dropped that narrative pretty [ __ ] fast haven't they yeah that anymore it's it's like if if it wasn't for the Panthers run we'd be looking at this storm run and being like holy crap what a season they're having but because of the panthers run we're not looking the Storm at the storm season in the same way and I find that interesting in itself so and the other thing is I guess is if you look at the Panthers side and who they do have going forward um like if they don't win this year next year they're one of the top three teams definitely to win the Premiership so it's not like they're going to just disappear you know um but it's all really interesting to see because we haven't seen a team have this sort of success for this long really going back to the Paramount eels and I I was way too young to really take that all in so um I was just I'm just looking at the stats for those losses yeah for penth last year yeah the last loss of the year against param was their worst loss for year they lost by 14 points the other five losses that year two were by one point one was by two points and the other two were by Four Points that's crazy that's [ __ ] crazy that's that's the same um but yeah they had other bigger losses in the in the two three years prior yeah but I thought it was 2020 that it had like their biggest loss was six points um yeah they had two losses there by six points which is insane which which also beats that record that they mentioned yeah oh but I lost the grand finals I suppose that doesn't count I was talking about Premier I guess no it was just talking about regular season oh okay so it's happened yeah so yeah okay yeah I mean the last team to do fastly better than that was St George in 1959 yeah where they just didn't get beat at all yeah well that's what it comes down to that's why I'm thinking they probably did the that [ __ ] ridiculous term the NRL era which isn't an error I dare say it's also because they didn't want to go and do any more research than I since '98 going to be too much hard work probably probably I wish I had a dollar for every time somebody talked about rugby league history and they couldn't work they couldn't even tell you what year the NRL started I I like the random comments I sometimes get from people who complain about how the NRL is a different competition to the New South Wales rugby league ARL and how they're not aligned and one's not a precursor to the other and all I say is how do you explain how all the teams that were in the NRL well nearly all of them anyway had also been exactly the same including players coaches and admin ad ministrators the year before when the NRL didn't exist yeah it's a completely linear competition yeah it's kind of amazing how that happens it's almost like it's the same thing but you know what would I know look when I was when I posted a couple of weeks ago about how there is no NRL era and you me talked about this on the website a few months how you've got like the different eras the 10 m era and then you go back to the limited tackle era and but prior to that it's probably World War II for no real reason but you know you can sort of delineate that and then from there I guess it's to World War I and then it's the start of the game really but um like I I would have people say really crazy things like well rugby league wasn't really professional until 1998 I like what the [ __ ] are you talking about the the game was professional in 18 [ __ ] 95 like that's the point it's the [ __ ] point I I tell you there are these are facts okay yes there are four eras in the entire history of Australian rugby league okay right there's what's called Foundation 90809 yes consolidation which is 1910 to 1981 so the way these eras work is about the teams not so much about the rules or the administration in place okay so 9 91 is the consolidation it's where the chopping and changing of teams is reduced we get down to a set competition with set um uh boundaries everywhere yeah and we start moving towards growing the game within that area so that we can start expanding it was only additions then that's right okay um oh there was a few few ins and outs so we had anandale University they both came in and went out and Glee also left in 1929 soit no right and then we had decentralization 1982 to 1996 yeah we stopped being a Sydney comp and then we have rationalization that starts with the Super League War in 1997 and go through till the present day that's where we go from the 370 M million teams we had during the Super League War we got it down to a more feasible number what do we have we had 22 teams yes they wanted to get down to at one point they wanted to get down to 12 that's right and they wanted do they wanted to do the 12th by 98 yeah they wanted to do it overnight basically that becomes silly and so they they rationalized it over a couple of years they were going to go down to 12 they decided on 14 yes and and then it ended up being it was 14 but then it ended up being 16 when souths were added so they knew they 15 no 15 yeah yeah and then that 16th team was obviously the Titans cuz it's better to have even numbers yeah that's why they brought the Dolphins in yeah yeah well you know they're going to sort that out but um but who okay so with the eras you pointed out who sets those that is from a book um that Alan Whitaker and Ian k wrote about the history of rugby league clubs yeah and those are I've seen those mentioned in other books by other people um okay it's not official but that tends to be the way people look at the game so it starts out with how the game started um how it got itself organized in a manner so that it could start moving towards expansion which slowly happened you know we had two teams coming in the 20s yeah we had one leav in the 20s another one leav in the 30s and then that's when the leaving stopped we then had two teams come in the 40s two more came in the 60s um so we started to settled down we started to get ourselves set on that team we had a pretty good spread across Sydney by the uh the 1960s we went down as far as canala we were out to penrith we had western suburbs had Manley and North we covered The Wider parts of Sydney at that stage as well as still Liv teams in the center so all of Sydney was covered nicely um and then yeah during that postor War II phase they they got to those growing areas of the of the edges of the Melbourne um boundaries at the oh sorry Sydney boundaries at that stage and as the population continued to grow during the 60s and 70s I realized that there's more than enough enough teams now in Sydney but there's also all this extra population going on outside of Sydney and we need to tap into that if we're going to start making this game get any bigger but just as they're about to do that when they brought in parents and canala the game turned to like on the field just turned to an absolute [ __ ] dog bre drugs breakfast and they had to clean it up first yeah that's what happened in the back end of the 70s early 80s and they they did a similar thing in 1981 8283 as they did during the Super League War and that is they just came out with a Hardline thing and said right if you are not financially up to scratch you're going to get cut you've got a year to get your [ __ ] together otherwise you're gone but that was but that was really the like you say during the Super League era like cuz there's three different there's three different points that's happened I just say it happened in the basically it was an idea from the late very late 70s early ' 80s where and then it was the early 80s where they really said listen there's going to be some teams that are going to die there's going to be some teams that are added that's going to be a natural process and you either get yourself up to standard or you getting left behind right and then that was carried through a lot through because it was the New South Wales rugby league that was running the main comp and then they went into becoming the Australian rugby league eventually yes and the idea of that was carried through to the early '90s as as well where they were but and they they were very aggressive with expansion and that's where we ended up with Oakland uh North Queensland Southeast Queensland and um who's the other one Western Reds Western Reds that's right they all come in the same year and the idea and they said to they kept saying the clubs listen we're expanding you either keep up or you die off and as just as that happened Super League kicked in and everything just went out the window like there were no plans or anything but then the next time clubs were warned was after the Super League War had happened and they brought the 97 competitions back together again as one and they said look there's too much this all cost too much money we're rationalizing everything and there's going to be 12 teams and then they said 14 and they did get to 14 and then they souths come back in the competition through legal action which actually the NRL went back Court they won could have kicked s out again but realized it wasn't worth the hassle at that point Everyone likes watching sou get big you know oh Andrew your your [ __ ] bias is Shing never forget 1909 um isn't it interesting know that the N went back to couron one and that's a really important court case for them to win because if something terrible happened like I mean souths when they got kicked out were an absolute Basket Case like they did deserve to get kicked out oh yeah and you know if a club Falls to that level where it is just this drag of a team that is dragging down the competition the NRL needs to have the ability to kick them out if they need to I don't think they will need to in this day and age so I think we've moved to a different sort of um era of not only money in the game but Administration and stuff like and we've seen it with the West Tigers the West tigers have being putrid run for so long but you get handed $10 million every year by the NRL you're not about to go broke no it don't matter Cubs aren't going to go broke these days yeah no no you just can't just be impossible really yeah um it do made me wonder going all the way back to what you started with and talking about you know whether penrith are whether they've peaked and now they're going to stop being the premier yeah and how other teams have looked when they had that first year after that run of premierships how they looked yeah so the last run was as you mentioned param so after they won the premiership in was it 86 they won that was their last one yeah so 9 and 87 remember there was 13 teams in in the 80s so where did they so where did but where did paramedic cuz they won three and they had a break and then they won one right so where did they finish from so they they come first three times in a row but then what happened where did they finish the next year when they didn't win it okay so the premier in 81 82 83 they were runers up in 84 okay not in ' 85 they reached the preliminary final yeah so the final three I think that's correct yeah they lost to canb in the preliminary final so can end up playing some George in the Grand Final and then in 1986 they were minor premieres and then they won in the Grand Final okay um and then the following year finished seventh that's a fall and then the following year 11th yeah and then it was over and then 89 and 908 both years keep in mind it wasn't a top eight it was a top five that's right and then it fell apart badly yeah uh second last 9192 and then the 11th in 93 12th in 94 19th in '95 13th in '96 and then it wasn't until the competition fell apart that they managed to get back into the top eight they were uh 3 six six years in a row they were in the finals 97 to 2002 see it's interesting so say let's say for instance penrith lose because they're in the top four definitely y so let's let's say they go out in straight sets um and you would basically say they finished top what would you say you'd say they finished in the top four yep I guess yep um and then they come back next year and they finish in the top four again and then they come back the following year and win a Premiership that would basically be around about what the Paramount eels did yeah um which look it shows how difficult it is like we've seen teams win one Premiership and you get to like this point in their Premiership defense and they just look tired yeah and I I get it every single week you are the team to beat everyone's gone a fire we've seen it very much this year I think more than any year where penth lose a game and the opp and it's like the opposition have won a a some sort of title like last week when penth lost to cber like everyone was out in the field celebrating and stuff like that and I don't begrudge them that like some some people do I don't when you've got a team that's um been as dominant for as long as penth have been consecutive Seasons as well um anyone who beats penth feels like they've just won a Premiership because it's a absolute fit to to have achieved that yeah unless it's the West Tigers who have done it a few times it's just normal like basically that's just Saturday them in param matter them in param matter yeah we just sit there going you know what we don't care about the fact we're coming last and second last we just like to you know just basic Bally mock everybody else and just say penis's not that big of a drama yeah we we can do them pretty easy don't worry about them I don't know what you guys are struggling with it's all the rest of you teams that are the problem they sit back in like first weekend of October and they sit the game see that team there [ __ ] beat them this year beat them that that makes us better than them we're the Grand Premier oh man yeah speaking of crazy terms for for games yes I don't know who started it or where it came from but for the last two weeks we've been hearing about paramat the West tigers being the spoon Bowl mhm I think that's a dumb term a spoon bow basically that's just a a really large spoon that's basically a ladle and ladle is just a big fancy spoon so now we're back at spoon so we've made the bowl part redundant but the spoon a spoon Bowl would be the bowl yeah either way we're making one of the two things redundant aren't we well what would you call it the grand end the grand end why it's at the other end of the ladder the I say I say instead of Grand Final the grand end yeah that's not bad I know you it's also like Peak a Ian sarcasm yeah right we're talking about something being between the two worst performing outfits and calling it Grand we should call it the grand end every year we get an opportunity to have this call it the grand end treat it like a grand final put on some some pregame entertainment but instead of having like some worldclass you know rock band or pop musician whatever come out get a bunch of fifth graders with recorders out there make it as terrible as possible absolutely yeah yep um no sound checks and no microphones for any band out there no amps out there just hear Ting Ting Ting Ting it com through the notes on the guitar and the only song they play over the speakers is Sweet Caroline over and over again I'm fine with that they can do the chorus and just the chorus only just the chorus yeah when they do the national anthem only sing the second verse not the first one see and that would work who would not watch that that would be fantastic the the you know what the real problem is I tell you what the real problem is is with it we have a name for the final showdown between two shitty rugby league clubs it's called the Super League Grand Final should should we call it the grand Super League the grand Super League Grand Final how's about the winner of the Super League Grand Final comes over and plays the the loser of the grand end I just don't want to see them any of them play now instead of having the world club challenge where they play against Australia's Premier side yeah they come around they play against they come come over in they play against their grand IDE yeah why not they love a trophy anything for a trophy at some weird point of the year yeah well they can get a I don't know they can get a chopping board as a trophy just a plastic one from Kmart yeah that would work and just get someone with a text right on their winner what was the trophy that they I think it was maybe the Pacific Championship yeah it was made out of looked like a wooden serving tree yeah yeah yeah that that I mean I get what they're trying to do but didn't look trophy is it didn't workout did it it looked like something you'd seen a hotel lobby on a long table full of fruit it's like you should see the mangoes they have they're quite fresh it looks mango season already I don't know but they've got mangoes here it looks a b like some of those Formula 1 trophies that sometimes just say get handed out yeah some of them are are pretty crook they are not great now um I don't know if you've heard today they brought out the I heard are you gonna say the 2024 Pacific championships draw has been announced yeah have you heard and seen how this thing is structured look I was going to look into it okay but having watched last year's one and not knowing what the [ __ ] was going on yeah look I think the people who came up with the super Eight system yeah they've found new employment okay now I haven't read too much into this so this is this is going to be first for both of us here we go all I heard and all i' all have been told is promotion and relegation plays a part of course of course here we go the National Rugby League today announced a draw for the 24 championships played in four countries across four consecutive weekends in October and November it will see the introduction of promotion relegation with the winner of of the men's and women's Pacific bowls to play off against the third place Pacific cup nations forl in their 2025 Pacific Cup pools are you with me no I'm g i i my name is League freak and I don't care anymore so continue for all of the people that would consider themselves more rugby league fans than I am because if I don't give a [ __ ] there must be a whole world of people that also do not give a [ __ ] but continue FG will host the championship matches for the first time as the event expands further into the Pacific in 2024 uh as well as including Port morby Brisbane Cross Church Oakland and Sydney nrl's token South Africa Andrew ABDO said the introduction I don't know why they put that in there they didn't put that in there oh by the way can go on I got some South African news for you but go on write it down so you don't forget this could be wordy yeah yeah yeah said the introduction of promotion relegation adds extra significance to each contest following the success of the maiden championships in 2023 is his quote the 2024 Pacific championships will be the biggest sporting event in the region this year we have raised the stakes by adding promotion Rel they just said that before yeah across the mum so there is a great deal at stake in the Pacific championships we've just said the same thing three times over it's like going to James Hooper on the sideline when you see player get knocked out leave the field and he says oh yeah Matt Burton left the field it's like yeah we watched that you idiot you bll dope this is the thing I abdos said in the article and then they go to quote him saying what he said abdos said the 224 championships will once again serve as a reminder of the cultural significance of rugby league within the Pacific communities and he's quoted saying as the Pacific's largest sport rugby league is fast becoming the language that unifies the region the Pacific championships is a powerful showcase and celebration of culture connecting passionate rugby league fans in each host City and nation into one pulsating Sporting Community oh I'm throbbing already oh well it's it's fitting that he used the word pulsating because there's a lot of wanking going on here yeah fans will have the opportunity to experience the unique color and atmosphere that the Pacific champ ships brings with each venue hosting doubleheader match days to create a carnival atmosphere with local and visiting supporters I'm going to get [ __ ] shitfaced at one of these games right tournament details the men's tour will once again feature two divisions with top ranked Nations Australia New Zealand and Tonga to contest the cup or FG popping Guinea and Cook Islands will face off for the bowl okay um why can't we just play games what I don't know why we have to have two divisions to me that seems stupid why don't we just play every team that's in there so why doesn't Australia play New Zealand Tonga Fiji popping new guini and the Cook Islands once and we have a ladder and the team that's at the top of the ladder can just be the [ __ ] Champion yeah why not I'd be up for that how does that not seem easier than promotion relegation and two [ __ ] divisions and some some person gets a cup and the other one gets a [ __ ] toilet bow makes no sense why do we have to have Cutlery and Crockery for that's a good question I want a [ __ ] trophy can we have a like it's just a trophy just a good honest trophy [ __ ] oh man it's not the sevens exactly the cup in the ball oh my God sounds like a [ __ ] the start of a nursery Ry exactly where's the moon um sunor Stadium will host the men's and women's cup double header to kick off the Championships on October 18 Fiji will host consecutive double headers on Saturday October 19th and October 26 that's not consecutive there's seven days between those consecutive days yeah but they're in the same year like on a long enough timeline those games are consecutive okay I'm broken why is it so complicated Andrew P BBY will become a will welcome a women's cup men's Bowl oh too many cups and balls what do the women play the women play for a a bowl no they've got cups and balls okay yeah got to be careful there balls New Zealand will host its first double header Clash on October 27 at Apollo project stadium in Christ Church followed by another double header at the Go media stadium for those who haven't been paying attention that's Mount smart Okay um for the final pull match of the men's Cup and the women's bow deider on November the 2nd the Championships will culminate with a quadruple header at Sydney's combank Stadium on Sunday November 10 headline by the men's and women's Cup finals amazing well what's the other game I I don't know um theyve been spoken to some politician from Queensland don't care um and the rest is just words the Pacific bowl is proudly supported by the Australian government through Pacific o Sports excellent that'll show them commy bastards tickets started just $25 for adults and $50 for families yeah I'll remember that when I'm paying [ __ ] 180 bucks um man why is this so complicated Andrew I don't I don't know so here we got the cup for men October 18 Australia Tong at Sun Corp October 27 Sunday New Zealand Australia at at Christ Church November the 2nd New Zealand vona at Mount smart November 10 is the final of the cup and Saturday 19th Fiji PNG in fij and October 26 FG V Cook Islands in fij third of November PNG V Cook Islands in Port morby Cook Islands don't get a home game why not they're the only team in this whole shindig don't get a home game they should get a home game now [ __ ] them that's what the LL said yeah that's apparently November 10 promotion relegation playoff Ah that's a mess it really is it's a this there's six teams why does it have to be so complicated why not just play like you got six teams right just put them in two groups of three they play one another and the winners of the two groups go to the final would would that be really difficult well no but I don't know why it's just why not just just have five games you just play each other once and by the way relegation only matters when it could be for forever and nothing in International Rugby League is forever except for my next bit of information MH South Africa has put its hand up to host a future Rugby League World Cup that's fine I think we might have a spot available in 2127 yeah yeah um I have always said that whenever there's a World Cup around there's some [ __ ] guy in South Africa that says hey I do rugby league and it's always [ __ ] and sorry for buting in is is there a little bit of uh uncertainty around the uh Security in South Africa at the moment or or is that pass Us by now no that's only getting worse that you you're you're correct about that it's getting worse and worse and uh yeah let's have a look at the Smart traveler website this is the Australian government website with information um about South Africa okay okay so smartt travel.gov wau South Africa overall exercise a high degree of caution latest update 30th of August okay this was just today protest and large Gatherings can occur anywhere avoid erors affected by protests demonstrations or large public Gatherings like football games monitor media for updates and follow advice from local authorities use major roads where it's safe to do so and verify that alternate roots recommended by a GPS a safe prior to travel Express Express kidnappings happen in South Africa always be alert to your personal securence surroundings we advise exercise a high degree of cautious South Africa due to the threat of violent crime let's have a World Cup there yeah sounds sounds like a good idea that was uh that was spooked during the week by the International Rugby League that's South Africa have put their hand up and it's just like clockwork so we move on we better we better should we look at the uh the rest of the games this week uh yeah why not because we haven't missed too many I don't think just well we've already missed three of them oh they they didn't matter though they they weren't important matches yeah um let's see they were well the cowboy storm Cowboys are miserable I mean the storm were they were very heavily underman because they chose the restle of the players and still scored 30 points against the Cowboys yeah the Cowboys are a weird team um I didn't actually get to watch this game but you know when I saw the storm lost but they rested a bunch of players I saw that papen hen had picked up a lower leg contusion which should be fine by the finals but um just anytime you see you know him getting sort any sort of injury you worry about it um actually uh earlier tonight we saw the mly seagull defeat the uh Canterbury bulldogs and they defeated them pretty well but Tom trovich picked up a shoulder inj iny in that and it looks like it'll be an AC injury which is the same injury that uh Nathan clear has the problem is that Nathan clear has had a couple more weeks to get over his injury whereas Tom is going to be pretty sketchy to be able to play with that even further finals week one he won't play yeah it' be if he does play he will be straight off the field or you can't you just can't carry an injury like that as a fullback so you're not coming into finals footy either cuz you you can't really be hiding people especially spine members yeah you can't be hiding playing finals footy it's got to be all in yeah um it's okay because Garrick has played fullback a fair bit in Tom's several absences and he's done pretty bloody well back there they'll cover him reasonably well um but it is going to take a bit out of their attack Garrick doesn't chime in in the attack as well as Tom does but his kick returns do tend to be um I do I I tend to think his kick returns are just as good as Tom troes ones are so they don't lose immensely much set by set they just move lose that finishing touch that Tom provides yeah and the support player that he has as well which is unmatched really um thing about Tom trovich is that he's at this point of his career he has never had a memorable moment in the finals yeah and uh how old is he it's a good question I would say that Tom what Tom trovich I would say he's 27 in one just over one month's time he'll be turning 28 there you go he's 27 he is indeed which that's crazy to think man I'm I'm going to assume Matthew Jones would agree with me here that you as a as a fullback he's at his Peak most likely so that's a concern um yeah that that that's got to be really worrying for the for the manly finals run um the Bulldogs defense turned back the clock they were very ill disciplined just in their structure um and and that was all it was they they just I don't know if it was the occasion they had a very very big crowd there for this game um they were missing cryon as well which obviously he locks down one side of the field but the discipline defensively was not there at all and if they and it's not it's not the finals but there were finals implications in this game um and they will not be happy about that sort of performance this close to the finals cuz if if you play like that in the finals you're going to get smacked because everyone steps up in the finals even the bad finals teams step up in the finals so it it might be one of those things where you don't want to go into the finals on a winning streak which is a kind of a weird thing I was talking to uh Jamie about this earlier tonight we were messaging during that game and like you don't want to get to the Grand Final and have a 10 game winning streak you kind of want to have a five or six game winning streak at best yeah you don't want to have the um the threat of there's a loss around the corner hanging over your head because that will cause you to lose I believe that's what happened in uh and I don't think that's what happened it's kind of was one of the things that was there to think about for the Panthers in 2020 for a memory yes they were on a really long wining streak coming in Against The Storm not that I think that that's why they lost um I think their inexperience killed them in the first 10 minutes so down like by a lot very quickly but it's just another thing to be in the back of your head you know so maybe that's just the the Bulldogs getting that out the way um the storm got their one out the way the Panthers in the last two weeks got theirs out the way because yeah you don't want to get you don't want to be in the preliminary finals and it's like they're on a nine game winning streak because it I don't know it's just a thing it's a thing yeah the the pressure of staying on the streak becomes too much and the constant threat of there probably is a lest around the corner starts getting heavier and heavier and those two things start working together to conspire against you and all of a sudden little things where little bits of luck on the bounce of the ball start just going against you and you just go oh [ __ ] here it is and you you've talked yourself into the loss before it's actually happened yeah that's kind of how it does it is legitimately an entirely mental thing but that is how it works um yeah and Panthers Panther's uh St we we were talk about this one before we went on air and um saying sometimes you come across those games during the week where you're watching if someone said to you you've got to pick the three best performers for the game today you go uh yeah do I have to I can't really it wasn't that it was kind of a bit well I I watched it I mean obviously for the most Delan points niiko Hines I mean that was clear right he was Stella but uh and Isaiah yo was also very good in this game uh and the next best guy was probably alamot I would say he's been guy for the Panthers but it was just one of those games where the Panthers um they were pretty good they weren't great they just kind of did the job and sths had their moments but that was really it it it was a bit of a nothing game uh Nadine was at this game and she sent me a video of what must have been 100,000 moths that were attracted to the stadium lights and were just buzzing everybody in the stands yes and so yeah that looked pretty rotten I'm glad I didn't go to that game but yeah it's uh it was just one of those games that it's probably good for penth to get a little bit of a score on anybody but I don't think it really meant much in the grand scheme of DC not at all um pth have now won 13 of their last 16 games against sou going back to 2018 it's pretty amazing when you think about how many of the teams that penrith are facing right now who used to be the teams that they were facing in preliminary finals and Grand finals and stuff who are at the other end of the table yep um with a lot of the same players as well which is kind of strange yeah and something else you mentioned too was the the Panthers defense coming into this match had been very poor for the last three weeks not like their usual standard um in the three games prior to the game today they considered 80 points and the that's their worst three-game defensive effort since rounds 8 to 10 in 2019 and it's also worse in the west Tigers last three games yeah and and we've talked about the Panthers defense how it's the best we have both seen in our lifetimes um and and by a fair margin as well and when they're not at that extreme level they're probably still one of the top three defensive teams right now and on their day they they're probably the best defensive team but you don't want to rely on on their day as well um but I think that their defense at the moment anyway is back to being one of the top three rather than oh my God they're so far out in front of everyone which is what they've been for the last 3 or 4 years and when they're not at that level it puts more of pressure on their attack and their attack has always been a bit sketchy at times and a lot of their attack has rolled off the back of their good defensive pressure and you know they get teams stamped down on their own 20 M line trying to get it out of there in five tackles and they're not doing that as much anymore so it means their attack is having to get the the job done better and their attack is not as good as some of the like their attack has never been as good as the storm I know that they've had their moments but without question even over the last like four years you would the storm's attack is just much more better structured and uh you know better at pulling a team apart whereas Panther's attack is more reliant on we have destroyed you with our defense and when we've got the ball you're just stuffed yeah that that's just the bash him until they can't take it anymore that's just a bellam them all the way through yeah yeah think that it's weird because like one day we'll talk about the Panthers and people bring up their defensive records and and their wins on losses over this period and stuff like that and you're going to have to say yeah yeah yeah but you had to see their fence you had to see him doing it like it's it was they they would have moments where they would shut everyone down every game they played but then they would have games where they would blast you and shut you down as well yeah so yeah it's been incredible to see it absolutely um so tomorrow we've got eels versus dragons here's an interesting start took me a while to dig this one out yeah didn't actually I'm just lying param have considered at least 20 points in all of their last 18 n games M and the dragons have won all of their last nine games when they've reached when they've scored at least 20 points wow Paramount have won 11 of their last 14 games against the dragons I love it where you can find a a really precise Niche stat like that where you can say yep everything in favor here for the dragons to win this game then you go but on the flip side they got no chance yeah yeah some when something is going to break yes um the dragon should win that game and yet still I don't I'm not confident that they will I feel the exact same way they were woeful last week admittedly the Sharks a much better opposition than the eels but still for a team that is vying to be in the finals football they were not even they were not even in the same league as the Sharks last week yeah it's not even a full streak shark side and they still struggled what was that yeah look that I mean the dragons have punched above their weight this year they've done much better than I thought they would do I think I picked them as wooden spooners but um yeah it's it's I don't think anyone's expecting too much of them out of the finals but their fans and I've been there before as a Panthers fan um they'll just be happy to be there and I understand that if they make the finals yeah should we just put an asterisk next to them just because Flanigan oh 100% anything anything he does for his entire career question it yep um Dolphins V Broncos the Broncos have won all three games against the Dolphins so far with each contest producing more game points and a wider winning margin than the previous one wow the dolphin have considered five tries or more in eight of their last 12 games in the other four games they considered four tries the Dolphins feel like they're doing a little bit of what they did last year and that just the steam's gone out of them at the end and um the Broncos should win that's going to be a gigantic game in Brisbane though and it's it's going to end one of their Seasons yeah yeah that's right this this um this this match is do or die for both sides and only one's going to survive um so it's going to be it's one that we have to watch MH because it's going to make help make up the decide who's in the race for the finals yeah um sharks Warriors Kola have won 16 of their last 22 games against the Warriors which goes back to 2012 and they've won 60 of their last 89 games at points bet Stadium which is a 67.4% success rate and that's since 2015 well look the Warriors right now are are basically a 16-man team and they showcas and sha Johnson walking around the field he's been terrible for them this year um one season too many definitely and you know the shark should win that one pretty comfortably I agree um plus there's a fair chance that Hines will be back o I tell you what he better keep them winning because um they've been going all right with the they have they have um Knights V Titans the knights have won their last five games at home against the Titans scoring 186 points at 37 points per game and scoring and reaching 30 points in all of those five games and they've won 12 of their 17 games at home in September now yeah I was going to say I've done a bit more work on this one here this is this is for kns fi okay this is what you want okay okay so then then obviously they need to win against the Titans but they'll also be hoping that the eels will beat the dragons and the Dolphins beat the Broncos and the roosters beat the Raiders and then next week the knights will need to beat the Dolphins while also relying on the Raiders to beat the dragons to help them make it into the top eight otherwise they're done there's a little bit of mathematical about it there is but you know what I like mathematical I'll be going out of my way to not watch this game yeah I think it's going to be absolutely [ __ ] full to watch yeah yeah but I might watching am I watching for the ls if there are two teams that are of zero consequence in the 2024 National Rugby League competition it's these two yeah yeah although I'm I'm kind of going for Knights Dolphins Broncos I don't care I just want to see at least one of them get to eighth so the dragons that make the finals all I know is that no matter what kieren forign does the commentators will say what a great player he's been even if he's been completely [ __ ] and cost him the game yes yes he's been Stellar he's been magnificent over his whole career it's like really what's he done since he left the [ __ ] sea eagles got injured um final game of the round roosters V Raiders the Raiders have won their last three games against the roosters in Sydney The Roosters though had won 18 of the 20 games against the Raiders in Sydney prior to that which goes from 1992 to 2019 14 of the last 20 games between these sides has had a margin of less than 10 points wow well I tell you what the P harded Raiders definitely played great last week against the Panthers and got a really gatsy win so I don't think this is going to be a walkover for the for the roosters I could see the Raiders winning this one I would wouldn't be surprised as well um so interesting one and most importantly tigers have got the buy so if the dragons do beat the eels eels have got the spoon yeah what a turnaround and next week's going to be the grand end did you see the thing this week where was more media [ __ ] because they don't live in the real world right so they were saying no Jason doesn't want to play GTH at fullback which you know if you're a good coach you wouldn't want to play GTH at fullback so they were saying he might play at lock they're looking at him as a lock and it's like do you realize how [ __ ] stupid it is to be trying to shoehorn somebody into a position that they haven't played before in [ __ ] August for footb that you're going to be playing in March next year it's so stupid Oh I so want to see this I think they I think honestly he'll be like Isaiah yo in that he will be a bipedal male and that's it there will be no other comparisons are you sure we can't try and talk it up more try and convince try and try and convince the Paramount higher ups that it's definitely the right thing to do Trent Trent mate you're listening I know you're listening mate I wouldn't just put gotho at lock I think you need to go and put him in the front row can you imagine having that footwork and that silky ball skills in the middle of the field oh mate come on what I would do is I would I would hire out a theater right and I would bring everyone in all the param matter hierarchy you know you got Jason RS got [ __ ] Nathan Brown and his daughter all the important people people are there the bus hey the bus yeah the bus the bus and then I sit them down and I start playing like a v v video on the screen it's like Ray Price [ __ ] Jason Smith Daniel wagon and then that's it and I'd be like end of presentation any questions no just have actually what you could do is what we alluded to in the last episode we could have our uh Mount Rushmore yeah just could be ears locks you just have those foreheads there they're just them yeah who would be the paramedic eels Mount rashall um sterlo Kenny Kenny and sterlo no be Ray Price it' have to be Ray Price Right Kenny sterlo yep Daniel wagon Daniel wagon probably Hindi I guess Nathan H Mar would he get ahead of Eric gr Senor yeah you reckon yeah I don't know I think amongst param die hards absolutely no I mean in people that know about rugby league not parameter die hards oh dick onette th one of those two both of them yep 100% that's a no I'd have both of them there yeah R price can go for walk cuz he played rugby but I think one of the th on boys did too who would be the West Tigers Mount Rushmore Craig field Craig Kevin mcginness Don POI and a there's got to be someone else John bitman John bman that [ __ ] beat that it's hard to beat um the West Tigers M Rushmore is going to be Benji Robbie scando really probably come on who else is it gonna be John Wilson Hodo Bret Hodson Brett Hodson yeah he'd probably go pretty close what about Darren Center he's only there for two years he all right two years scal I don't know about that him or BR Gibbs what about the Panthers one for the Panthers it'll be people who have never been inducted into the Hall of Fame yeah yeah we didn't address that that's a [ __ ] shame Greg Alexander is not in Hall of Fame no neither is Roy Simmons no [ __ ] why Roy Simmons only played for rest of the world yeah but that's not a test match no it's not we know that yeah but when playing against uh Great Britain he was deemed to be the best hooker in the rest of the world yeah yeah no one else not not Benny Elias he's in the Hall of Fame yeah it's crazy that Greg Alexander's not in Hall of Fame I'd have both of them in there but Greg Alexander absolutely should be there abolutely okay here's another one for you I'm just throwing him at you now who's the best halfback in New Zealand rugby league history Freeman it's got to be who else it's not even bloody close H because I was thinking about this as they were talking about Shawn Johnson I saw commentators saying that he was maybe the best New Zealand player ever and just wanted to throw stuff at my TV screen um then they were saying he was the best New Zealand halfback ever and I was like is he top four maybe but Freeman's the best yeah you're right you're 100% right let's see who's the most capped halfbacks of all time let's see Gary Freeman Stacy Jones both played 46 tests yep Bill Snowden played 42 he wasn't too bad Richard wyard as well Ken Sterling was pretty good in the 70s um Sean Johnson's there he's played 25 test s b played in the 50s Not yeah it's it's it's a pretty short list yeah um but for me it's just too hard you can't go past G Freeman Freeman was just a Fant it was a fantastic halfback full stop especially for the size of the man oh God yeah um another player I know he wasn't genuinely considered a halfback he did play there occasionally though was George meny um he played during the 50s when they just had that gold a of great players everywhere um like globally um Jim bond in the 60s you can't really include Benji Marshall no no it's definitely a 58 who else was it only two two or three others I can think of but I don't think they played a huge amount of test there William S you know who you're missing who a dude in Melbourne am I though would you take okay here's the question because I was thinking about all these questions would you take sha Johnson's career over Jerome hughes's career no neither would I would you take sha Johnson in a big game over Jerome Hughes no would you take him in a test match no so who's the better player then to [Laughter] Johnson that see this is what I was thinking about because I was like thinking about players who uh played in the Premiership but maybe didn't play for New Zealand for whatever reason but then I was like okay so if you think Gary Freeman right I still think I'd take Gary Freeman over Jerome Hughes I think he's a a more natural all round halfback um but I would take Jerome Hugh's second I take Jerome Hughes ahead of Stacy Jones and definitely take him ahead of sha Johnson yeah I I think I probably would to to be honest yeah yeah I'm glad we think alike because if we didn't I'd have to get someone else to be on this podcast with me that's fair I will I will say this okay I I do rate Stacy Jones higher than you yeah you do you do not not by not by a huge amount yeah but I do rate him higher than what you rate him I just think that for I know he played in Bad teams and I know that a great player in a bad side you can't just lump it all on them but when you're in a halfback you can't lose that many games no and that's that's fair yeah that's fair but sometimes you can take a a good player in the poor performing team and if you would just say right how would they perform if they had a great team around them what if how would Stacy Jones have performed if you had to put him in the Broncos team at the time yeah that's that's a fair point he'd look like a [ __ ] Immortal there's no doubt about it same goes for what how would Benji Marshall look if he was put in that Melbourne stor side [ __ ] oh be unfair but at the same time there is a level of there's a level of cause and effect as well is is I guess my point of view no that is true that is true um so there was two other player or three other players I was going to mention they didn't have long careers but they were pretty successful um well one was pretty pronominal Lance Todd played in the very early 1900s oh yeah yeah um Fred aoy played in the late 70s early 80s um and there was William sson who played in the 50s um they were all pretty prominent 58s as well um New Zealand did have a pretty good time during the during the 50s and 60s with um skilled skilled ball players but it was hard to be and not just for New Zealand for all nations it was hard to have an extremely dominant footballing career or look like you've been some sort of prolific Point scorer or TR scorer anything like that during the 50s because every team was just [ __ ] insanely good yeah well there was just there was just no walkovers anywhere to to pad your stats so to speak yeah and I think that's why when you talk about like and the podcast we had the other week where it's like Churchill and orar who I had on my Mount rashar of all time and they're from that era but but they like in that era they were Head and Shoulders above everyone else which is just hard to explain yeah um it's like Wally Lewis in state of origin it's like you got all the best players from Australia and this guy was a monster among them and and to do that is incredible in itself and those that's what those two did in that golden era oh absolutely um that's why one of the things I wish I could have seen um in my lifetime was either of those first two World Cups especially the first one in 1954 MH you get to see I mean we might we might go back through some of the matches and stuff like that one day and do an A History episode cuz it's only there was only four games mhm four games five no two four six games are and then the final seventh game um so it wouldn't be a huge thing to go through but there was so many great names in there um just phenomenal Australia finished third in that tournament out of the four teams with a points difference of minor six wow holy crap it was just it was insane but who won the who won the plating the ball who was relegated though that's what I want to know well Great Britain won the won the cup so I dare say well France would have had to play Australia and in the in the games before France beat Australia so they can have the plate and then be left with a vers St New Zealand so they get the bow and New Zeal can have the spoon excellent everyone gets a piece you can all have a picnic together and we can all have cuddles and hold hands and sing songs excellent lovely um what else has been going on are We Do we have any emails uh no we didn't have any emails well that's that's shocking yeah I know our listeners just they don't like to participate very often they just like to hear what we've got to say which is fine oh you know what there was some uh there was there we had had listen we had a listen to winged to us yeah this [ __ ] guy didn't didn't bother to take his [ __ ] name part of some website here he like third in command or something on that website gets carried a lot I hear um be nice if you stop breaking that website by the way just saying is it broken H just breaks all the time so I was like I tell a person that owns it and he's like I [ __ ] tell that guy to stop breaking my website um but yeah he said we should read the YouTube comments soon so maybe we can do that in the next episode okay I I found his comment okay um Sean I don't endorse anything of what L just said by the way don't sack me um you don't normally say his first name you just call him that s guy yeah my Superior my you you always call him my worker my underling you'll change your tune when you see what he's just written he's written quite a fair bit here ah [ __ ] okay and and it starts with I 100% agree with League Fleek on League freak on the exclusivity of the Immortals and I've always felt that way he's a Cadillac amongst men this man you've got to remember that when the Immortals was first done aside from the stuff we do know like it was a magazine that was done to sell booze Etc there was no Hall of Fame in Australia now we do and that's perfect we we can easily identify players who are genuinely great and add them to the Hall of Fame but the notion of an immortal to me should be a player who was so all time so incredibly undeniably great that it's fine if you have a literal 30 to 40 plus you period of History where there were no just where there were just no Immortals at all as League freak said it should be essentially impossible to even get in there gods of league is a great way to frame it and people talking about cam Smith like literally wait 20 years before you even think about it let the history B in over a long period I think the Immortals concept was spoiled from 1999 onwards not because of who they added or why but because they came out and said all right we want to add to the Immortals we don't know who we'll figure that out later but we just want to add someone totally the wrong way to go about it a player has to be so alltime legendary that they fight their way into it I agree with PG or bur too him d m the little Master Wally to me those are the choices that are almost impossible to argue against and if you start to go through more after that you introduce even if it's the absolute slightest hint of potential doubt or challenge Etc yeah and that was my thing with and I I it'll upset some people but that's my thing about Ron coot is that when you say like was he better than Raper no he wasn't but that's got to be how harsh it is like that's lit that's literally got to be how harsh it is that is like devastatingly harsh and that's not to say you're not an amazing incredible one of the best players of all time but that should be the level that the Immortals are at I fully agree and that is what I I said like the system I had there I made it so I was as flexible as possible so that you could have people going to any sort of decade anywhere but once they're in and you've only got two slots that's it there's no wriggle room to put other people in elsewhere and it meant that you were you know if you had a period like like we do with the 60s and the 70s um where there's just a bunch of them that all played around that same period that could just go in there you spread them out across the 60s the 70s and the 80s MH you're weeding out those who you think might be potential everyone was pushing all the time for sterlo to be included but if you've got Wally Lewis and Arthur beatson in the 80s already where does sterlo go in the 90s fine you know he's got Mal maninger and Andrew John's there who pushing out I I see where you're coming from your yours is almost like it's a qualifier on if you if you're that good then you're going to push someone out exactly that's the same thing you're doing but just word it differently I think CU yeah if if someone is that good then you find a way to put them in there well mine's mine's way more arbitary like without question it's and it's it's uh whereas you're one you can quantify in some way because you are going by the decades yeah so I I I I think that look I think both of those ideas are better than the way they do it now um and yeah like it's a it's an interesting argument it's a it's a really interesting argument I think but I think that that was the thing that come out of it for me um was that the the Hall of Fame is it just is not what I wish it was and the Immortals are not what I wish they were and it doesn't matter what I say it's not going to change it so you just got to accept it I guess which is sad but you know what can you do about it exactly um so there we we got all of those uh comments out of the way yeah yeah um I love you Sean Shan wonderful man he he agrees with me so and I knew that the the head the figurehead the owner of rugby league project would agree with me of course great man he is I'm I'm not doubting that I could wax lyrical about the magnificence of of sha yeah yeah he's always saying all the work he's doing on the back end of the site people should see it let's be honest he's not just doing all the work on the back he's doing all the work on the front end and in the middle end yeah yeah I know you tell you say broke another thing today hey [ __ ] yeah [ __ ] Andrew did it again I'm Sorry's he's lovely lovely brilliant magnificent glorious human um we must have talked about International Rugby League history in the last episode for like an hour plus mhm I could literally start again right now hey we probably will what's the time it's not even midnight not midnight yeah no we'll probably just hang this up and then we'll do it for another hour yeah yeah exactly unless you start asking me about who you know who's kicked the most field goals as a as a fullback and then I go [ __ ] around with the script big gr meia wouldn't it so you've already no I'm not going to look at no be Eric seems don't worry 86 you're right you're right you're right could be something like that yeah maybe props go go with props who would be the most fi goals by a prop that's good one that's a hard one John Gray is it how many I I don't know I'll go with John Gray well tell me I want to know exactly who it is uh we W give the listeners everything we'll just do that now and spare time okay we'll see we'll see if that's tease any of them into wanting to know if you want to know the answer to that or other questions similar to that then you're just going to have to uh like And subscribe us on on YouTube and send us comments on the video there and go to rugby league project where the statistics are correct every week no matter what no matter what competition they don't have to make Corrections because they're correct the first time I I'll yeah like that's that's an opinion I guess I I cross referenced this three times and we're still wrong and then someone post the link to rugby league project takes them two seconds and it's correct oh Wells whoops whoops um yeah we got we got some some content coming from Ro League project in the next few weeks excellent added extra content add to the website cuz you know it's not it's not a big enough drain on the world's servers yeah we need to make the thing [ __ ] bigger and so we are yeah um so it's going to be great excellent I'm looking forward to seeing it I'm going to ask you what that all is after the podcast is finished I'll tell you this bit M we've got all the captain sorted out for every single game ever played in the uh you rugby league in NRL oh that's that's interesting every game even got the ho of the coaches upgraded we got more coaching uh more coach records on there and stats upgraded on there MH um pretty sure we've got all of the S bins and send offs that we've been able to find anyway since 8 on there as well oh that's brilliant and we've got all of the midweek pre-season postseason All Those monoc comp games they're all in there I think there's only about three or four games that don't have a lineup that we haven't been able to find yet okay out of out of a few hundred hey when did they bring in the uh sbin and the uh send off sbin I think was 803 84 the S off has been around since 1908 has it really mhm can you imagine what they were doing in like 1908 to get sent off yeah so I think the first one was a bloke got shot in the eye no I don't know I don't know what they were doing back then had to be pretty nasty prop was sent off brought a sickle onto the field I think I think that's those lines you remember when when we did the uh ear park ride episode we had fans com home and just I'll just go home and grab the axe I'll be back in a sec yeah they brought back weapons yeah yeah look up that look up the episode um Earl Park Riot freak episode amazing it's not a long one but it's a it's a fascinating story yeah um I just going to see if anyone got sent off in 08 just for fun don't think anyone did to be honest I'll give you this a little tip though okay round one 908 yeah Del messenger played Reserve grade for East really he played Reserve grade yeah he was he was at the ground yeah to watch his brother play he had no intention of actually playing himself okay and when the club officials saw him there they went oh D you got to come and Playmate he's gone a I think that he said I don't have I didn't bring my togs with me I don't have my my uniform to play he says that's okay we'll find one for you yes you would I put the gear on him then you ran out in the first half and the um a few media reports at the time was saying he was just dominating play he scored one or two tries he set a few RP and then in by the time it got later on in the first half and through the start of the second half he would only play in his team's half oh wow he play up to halfway and then he just stayed back oh wow was there a reason why he wasn't playing like was it cuz he'd come back from the all gold store or something yeah he just he just got back from the all gold store and he just wanted to watch the the first round of footing and he wanted to be there watch his brother play yeah [ __ ] he got roped into play so his first ever Club game in uh strain rugby league is he also his only ever game in reserve grade imagine being on the other side and it's like it's D messenger he just played 40 games over in England I going to play against in my first ever game of this I'm just learning how to play this bloody sport but that must have been what it was like you know the uh you know the Aboriginal knockout competition that they have at the end of the year yeah yeah it must have been like that the first time they got an NRL player into it hey like a current one where it was like oh they they've got [ __ ] Jamal Idris what the hell like I don't know if it was him it wouldn't have been him but you know would have been like I think Chris Chris Sando went over there a few times I think during his footy season when he was actually playing pretty good football in the NRL oh there's been heaps of him I yeah did English go over once what's that did English play it once I feel like he did yeah cuz there was like I've watched it a few years and have been like how does this work in terms of getting the all of the you know just the insurance stuff for it is I I like they might they work it out because these players do play in the competition but like they have literal NRL Stars running around in that competition I think the only reason that there haven't been players like say thir running around in it is because he was always late to the finals when it was on cuz I'm pretty sure it's like around finals time it's on but yeah they've had some like out andout superstars in that competition it's that's why it's so good to watch oh yeah it's bloody gray footy too yeah it's really good really good did you see that uh actually here I just see um Latrell Mitchell Josh adakar Nick hin have played in it yeah there you [ __ ] it's established in 1971 yeah it's been out for a while knock out I used to watch it I don't know what it's on now it's probably on um SBS or something like that but it used to be on I think yeah nitv on foxtail yeah yeah and I used to I I Chuck that on and have that on um and it's like it's like the lead into the finals at night or something like that it's it's fascinating for me I love watching it you don't even the great thing about it is you don't have to support team you just tune in and watch it and just watch just amazing football being played it's kind of like when when we watch International Football between two Nations that we don't really know much about the international history on you're just watching two football teams playing rugby league and it's just there's just something great about it you don't have you don't have anything invested in the result yeah I feel like that when I watch uh like say PNG in the cook Island something like that yeah yeah exactly it's F just it's amazing to watch just watching it and just enjoying it for what it is yeah yeah brilliant um have we I think we've covered everything in this one yeah I think we've done well uh we only had to cut out five minutes of it yeah yeah that was that was a bit of drama there yeah there was a little bit of uh something happened oh well you won't do that again n no no people think that I did something thanks thanks well come on that's what they're going to do anyway yeah probably yeah that's right I can tell you now at least he wasn't angry this time yeah I wasn't angry I was quite joyful yeah that's right it was all good um all right well thanks for tuning everyone make sure you check us out on all of the socials um get over there on YouTube like And subscribe and give comments on the videos there um uh we'd love that you know what go on there this this is because we've discussed on the last two episodes go on there State what team you follow we don't care where and tell us the um Mount Rushmore for your team and when we get a chance we might go through those and find out what people think and we'll discuss those decisions and tell you why you're wrong yeah we will take your we will take your Mount rashall and we'll break it down we'll break you down as a person as a result that's right we'll just put it absolutely just a big you know smashing ball through the whole [ __ ] man and I would say this too if you're a Super League fan an English supporter and you want to do the same thing don't cuz we don't care no no they they can but just know that the correct answer for all four is in strain plays [Laughter] 100% I think we're going to got to make that I you know got to give them a leg up aren't they too busy going to sporting events and singing for two hours and then destroying the rest of the surrounding areas afterwards I'm just going to bite my tongue I fear I'm going to repeat an earlier comment ah good on them now absolutely well they're enjoy themselves yeah you got to be known for something don't you that's right that's right they don't know why there yeah um thanks junor everyone make sure you check us out all as I said all the socials we're over there on LinkedIn YouTube Twitter X whatever it's called now um subscribe like all that sort of stuff that would be fantastic we'll catch us all next time