Exit Philosophy with Griff and Scotty Mac - S2E34 "The Belated Bowden Bounce"

[Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] we welcome you to Episode 34 of the second season of the exit philosophy podcast Rich Griffin and me Scott MacArthur and Griff we we all the the world's problems are solved we've got to talk to commissioner Rob Manfred and get the Blue Jays playing nobody but the white socks and the angels next year and if that happens if that happens the previously Unthinkable Could Happen which is a major league baseball team going 162 2 and0 I know the Jays were 5- one against the white socks but could just eek out that extra game I mean he could go perfect you go perfect yeah there I mean 12- one against those two teams 51 and 67 against the rest of baseball and then they've got three National League teams that they haven't played yet that they're going to play on this current uh series of 16 games coming up the stretch of 16 games that's really going to make or break uh the perception of what this team is and and remember last year they had a they came off losing four in a row to the Texas Rangers and then had a series a streak of 16 games that they really needed to do well in and they were 10 and six but the difference between that 10 and six and it was basically the same uh teams that they were playing that they should beat and that was the that was the positioning in 2023 is they need to beat those teams if they're going to the postseason and they did the 10 and six stretch they just came off of included seven and0 against the angels as you point out as you pointed out and then series losses two two games to one series losses against the Cubs the Reds and the A's and so like there was the record looked good but if you scratch beneath the surface they still have a lot to prove and I think that this next stretch of 16 games against five teams all of which are contending for the playoffs is going to tell a lot more so they set a floor for themselves of this is what we can do against Bad teams and so there's there's a record now to go on for guys like Leo Jimenez uh Addison Barger guys like that but let's see what they can do against teams that are good and are contending that Angels team is awful like they're they're bad I'm not taking anything away from the Blue Jays wins and and yet Perry manian who we both know uh former assistant general manager to Alex anthopoulos for a period of time with the with the Blue Jays got a contract extension so his four-year original deal is coming to an end and he got a two-year extension and Arty Moreno the owner of the team who is widely viewed as the problem in Anaheim am I allowed to call it Anaheim I um in a in a statement said look we really like some of the work Perry has done in building up the farm system Etc and some of that is starting to bear fruit Griff um you know sha ell at first base oh hoppy was a trade with the with the Phillies I think for Brandon Marsh and and he's up now and and seems to be the catcher of the not just the present but but the future there uh Neato at Short like they or Netto they they have they have some guys and I I also don't think that they're just a Mike Trout healthy season in 2025 away from being a good team there there's a there's a lot of work to do there um but man uh that I I was happy to see some jays you know Barger with with the the walkoff after ler fedo tied it so the back-to-back home runs uh to turn a one run deficit in the ninth into a one- one run Victory easy for me to say uh on on Friday night like good signs and I I don't take anything away from from what the Jays got done this weekend but that Angels team man oo that is that's a tough watch yeah and I again going back to the GM Perry manasian um just the logic of why they chose this moment to give him an extension when you look and they've got Kevin po batting top four the entire Series against the Jays um and and they've still got Brandon Drury playing multiple positions and almost playing every day and their pitching staff is not good they got some good young arms out there but you know is it is it extension worthy for your general manager I'm not so sure but well who hold on a second hold on a second you're are you suggesting that after four years only four years uh oh it's time to move on in Anaheim um I just I'm I'm not yeah well you're talking about a comparison with the current Blue Jays am I but you're putting words in my mouth r Atkins and Mark shapy will be going into their 10th season next year and if unless something unto happens after this current season and uh you know the the way it's trending they're going to end up between 75 and 80 victories for the year so you know 75 to 80 after where they were they could have been a 90 lost team but are going to be better so that is that enough plus the Houston Astros trade where they seem to swindle Dana Brown who is another former Blue Jay's assistant did they Swindle him because kikuchi's pitching well seem to because and I'm trying to make a case for hanging on to Ross Atkins and so I'm I'm using that word to explain maybe what the Blue Jays will say is that they made a great deal for Kikuchi who was only going to give them 10 more starts before a free agency now they got three players that that can that can contribute and it reminds me it reminded me recently of the rusty stab trade in 1972 that the Expos made with the Mets where they brought back three starting players Ken Singleton Mike Jorgenson and Tim Foley and you know you could say that that helped a young exposed franchise stabilize over the next several years but they didn't win anything again you know they didn't move forward and win at that time and again they were only a fourthe expansion team but uh yeah it reminded me of that because it looks like there could be three players coming back for Kikuchi that all will be on the roster in 2025 so we'll see how that turns out but it doesn't necessarily mean that you've built yourself a winner or that you you should keep your GM I'm too cheap and I'm too lazy to have gone out and bought balloons but I I feel like feel like cake and balloons would be appropriate cuz Griff you and I have been on the Bowen bandwagon from the start and I I remember I remember was it his first start of I think it was his first start of the year in Houston it did not go well right that first road trip of the season and he gave up like three or four home runs in that start yeah and yet and yet I'm watching no hit them so that would have been the first time that a player had been been no hit and thrown a no hitter in the same season much as we're looking at Danny Janson going this is history in the making that would have been history in the making yeah right but I I remember watching covers up the fact that he was so terrible that that Bowen Francis in that first start coming out of spring training where he basically won the fifth starter role because Alec monoa was hurt again um yeah and then he he just fell flat on his face at that point but I I just remember in that Houston game and and maybe this is true for every baseball game that's ever been played like as bad as a start can go for a starting pitcher every now and then it doesn't mean that there aren't good pitches I mean you may throw 65 pitches in an inning in two thirds and give up four home runs and walk three guys and it all looks horrific on your stat line but there might be a good pitcher three sprinkled in among those 65 pitches I I just remember watching that game going cuz to me he's got some life on his fast ball when he's up in the zone with it and and stuff like that and I I would watch and you know the Astros were teeing off and I'm thinking if if you locate locate because you and I had just talked about Bowen I think on the episode before and so the next episode after he got to use the keither herandez phrase after he got his tits lit I was all kind of sheepish to talk about the fact that I I I kind of have always liked Bowen Francis whenever I've watched him pitch and I should have reminded myself at the time that April the 9th is not the end of the season that there was more to go but it didn't really get better immediately and then he got hurt but now he's come back and look I you know Angels Cubs like we're not talking Elite of the elite offensively but we got close to a really special moment on Saturday and we're talking to you I I usually timestamp this and I don't think I did off the top we're talking to you on Monday August the 26th I I I really hope that he can parlay his last few starts including Saturdays into effective performances going forward against the better teams that they're going to see over the next three weeks because then to me it would really mean something and send him into the off season feeling feeling really good about where he's at yeah and you talked you you touched it briefly in his first few outings and especially his first start where you can throw good pitches and then still end up with a bad record because you throw some really bad pitches and and this is the major leagues and and people pick on that and I think what people were picking on was his curveball which he thought was an essential part of his repertoire and it turns out that he's pretty much abandoned the curveball and it took this long to figure it out it took another stint in Buffalo where they knew they were going to be trading Kikuchi so they were stretching him back out to be a starter and he sort of abandoned the curveball he used it against the Angels uh very carefully in his last start and he dropped a couple of curveballs in one of them for a strike three um and that's the way he's he's just figuring out now what we saw what you and I saw in him much earlier in the season but it it's funny I I talked to him on on Thursday before his start and I wrote a nice piece on him uh off of that and including the game again the one hitter against the uh against the angels and it's on griffs theep pitch.com it's my latest column that I wrote but he's gone through a roller coaster of his career I mean he went he left High School wasn't drafted thought he should have been he was throwing 89 to 92 as a 17year old so or an 18yearold he thought he should have been drafted went to Chipola which is a baseball Factory as we know with Jose Bautista Russell Martin Buck show Walter um and was drafted twice in two years at Chipola and so it hasn't been an easy Road for him but like you mentioned if he has found the right combination and he says he studied the three veteran pitchers ahead of him and we all know how much Chris Basset helps the other pitchers on the staff because of course he knows it all right um but but he studied Gosman and the way Gosman approaches hitters and the way he attacks hitters and he's learned from that and he learned uh to refine his grip from Basset and he learned work ethic from bos so if they do have something and we will find out as you mentioned earlier and they need to find out over a stretch of games against good teams you know they need to find out over the next 16 games which in which Francis will have restarts they need to find out what they have and if they do have something it will allow them flexibility and optimism going into the offseason heading into 2025 that maybe they have three or four legitimate starters and it limits what they need to do to the rotation uh when we discuss this next part of Bowen Saturday it's going to sound if you watch Sunday's broadcast like I'm ripping off Joseph I I I guess in a way that I am but I also swear to you I'm not because my first reaction to Taylor Ward's postgame comments on Saturday this is the angel in the Outfield who had the home run in the ninth that broke up the no hitter and who essentially to paraphrase called Bowen Francis basic you know it was a lot of hitable stuff nothing special and Chris Basset with Bowen on the headset on the broadcast on Sunday snuck in with the yeah the sign he'd made behind and whatnot in support of Bowen my first reaction was holy crap on just a simple level that's disrespectful you know don't don't scrub the Shine off a guy's special day number one especially a guy who's grinded like Bowen Francis has 28 years old it's not like he's some 21-year-old C Miss kid getting his first crack like he's he's he's grinded it out number one number two and this is where it's maybe going to sound like I'm copying Caleb but I swear to you I should have tweeted it when I but I don't have the app on my phone because I've chosen sanity over whatever on musk has turned that bloody thing into um my my reaction was Taylor is essentially telling the world that he thinks his team sucks now he's right but I wouldn't say that out loud if if it was also hitable and also basic a not shitty team would have done more than the Angels did right Taylor more than you did took you until the ninth inning right I I just thought it was I I'm like come on you know don't diminish another guy's shine in a moment like that yeah I I agree with that but I also you know it's not like it was a confrontational thing uh like the Alec Mano Garrett Cole Type Thing where both sides are involved in a give and take this was this was being sort of ambushed by a quote out of the losing Clubhouse by the only guy who hit who got a hit off you and and I reached out to another uh Blue Jays Insider and I said my concern was that Bowen would look at this quote and it would take some of the like I'm not saying that he's got a fragile confidence level but it might just take a little bit of Shine off of that uh like I I pointed out in my uh text message to this person that I thought when Joe Madden said about Ricky Romero uh I only had five left-handers in the lineup because I didn't have anymore and then Ricky went into sort of a a slide a dip and it may have been a natural part of what Ricky Romero was and what happened to him but I just thought thought that it was unnecessary for Joe Madden to say that unnecessary in the same way for Taylor Ward who's like just a routine run-of-the-mill player just like your buddy Joe Madden other than the the aura that he had about him as as the smartest guy in the baseball if he's the genius the Gen he managed that seventh game of the 2016 World Series impeccably they won because of him didn't you you didn't you didn't know that so the reaction I got was that he didn't think that that Bowen would react negatively to the Taylor Ward comment that it was just you know it would be a part now we'll we'll see whether I was sort of right in a way we'll see how he pitches his next time out and the time after that and hopefully it won't affect him at all moving forward and he will use what been successful with recently which is the splitter and the for seamer and uh mixing in his two other pitches uh less frequently we'll see if that is the answer or if it's a little bit of it is mental well you know for Bowen and if if the Jays have announced how the week's going to look they've got the as we talk on Monday August 26 they've got this weird double header and we'll get into this in a a second because it involves the Danny Jansen thing that everybody's talking about a little bit of history is going to be made in baseball today and that's the cool thing about the sport it's been competitive for like a century and a half now and there's still something new you could possibly see but the way that it goes it seems like the Jays are trying to give the extra off day now to their starters which would have Bowen open the series in Minneapolis on Friday night if because they're playing two on the Monday they decide to bump him up and keep him on quote regular rest then he would pitch the finale in Boston on Thursday but either way Griff it's a good opponent who has playoff Stakes on the line as we enter the stretch drive here and so there's going to be more of that for him as we talked about a little bit earlier and it it it can only be a good thing and we know certainly Fenway p and I would even argue we're still in summer uh Target Field uh very reachable bleachers like hitters can do damage in those Parks so you're facing a good team in their park in a hitters friendly environment in your next start go out and have a good outing there and you back up everything else and and that's what we're hoping for and the other thing that you need to see is whether teams that have now have more more video of the new Bowen Francis use that video to catch up with the adjustments that he's made to his own repertoire and to see if if they can adjust to him and how he then adjusts to that it it's like a cat and mouse chess match down the stretch and uh we'll see how it turns out but you know it could have been worse it could be worse for the Blue Jays right now they could be staring at 90 losses but right now you're looking at a bunch of young players who have excited the crowds a little bit you know Addison Barger never gets cheated on a swing I I remember even when he gets even when he pitches out of the zone and he's reaching for it it's a hack he's hacking and uh you know that's the sort of guy that that sort of excites the crowd and he's hit two big home runs and we'll see you know the entire roster has demonstrated enough on that last home stand and that stretch against Bad teams that it'll be interesting to see how they perform against better teams bar Barger also looks like a linebacker yeah you know like he's he's he's he's put together so you combine that with not getting cheated on your swing and every now and then you're going to get into one and hit it 430 ft so so there you go as we but they Ahad just to the just to the extra day rest that you're talking about that would seem important to um a lot of these pitchers down the stretch and it's not just trying to save your innings for yiel Rodriguez and trying to make sure that Bowen Francis isn't overworked it's the veteran guys who are expected to come back in 2025 you don't want to overextend them and so there's easy ways I've got two six man rotation set up for uh September that I offered to show to John Schneider but he said he had three so he's ahead of me but couple of them probably overlap I mean it's not rocket science it's just building in off days and six men and a six-man uh to make it work but I think that is definitely going to be what they do down the stretch and it's not aad thing because then you'll get a chance likely to see what Jake Bloss can bring to the table for three or four starts the rest of the way and see if he can fit into the picture for 2025 now as we as we sit here we acknowledge lunch hour Monday August the 26th it's a work day so chances are when you're listening to this this bit of History has been made where the Blue Jays are kicking off what what is it Griff it's is it a four and a half game series is it a 4 and seven8 series with theace tried to Define that but a half inning there's been one out in the top of the second so I don't know how to label that five six of a one and one and one six inning have been played so far it's kind of like a five game series with a little bit shaved off the top bot the bottom line is that the pitcher who goes into the game for each team will not be credited with a start and we'll get into that shortly but you're talking about Danny Janson right so the history is is that Danny janson's actually up at the plate right now well not right now if you're listening say Monday evening Tuesday morning but as Griff and I are talking Danny Jansen is the hitter for the Toronto Blue Jays right now with one out in the top of the second inning of this suspended game just one slight complicated detail of course he was traded to the Boston Red Sox ahead of the trade deadline so he is going to play in this game for Boston according to Red Sox manager Alex cororo we've known that for a few days now because cor shared it late last week so Danny Jansen is going to become the first player to play in a game rostered for both team teams cuz this game was suspended by rain in June actually I think it was my birthday June 26th it was it was suspended it was suspended so so so a little bit of history is going to be made here it it's kind of cool reys Maguire was the starting catcher for the Red Sox in June in this game but as we know Griff they're definitely not yanking him back up from the miners after DFA him I jeez I just I can't be mature about it I Kell quantril shout out to you for keeping it alive brother um so he's he's gone so Danny Jance is gonna catch and then I guess it's Connor Wong in the in the night cap for the Red Sox explain I explain the catching difference in my column online as the the difference is that Danny Janson has never shopped at Dollar Tree so he made enough money in his career that he doesn't have to but what would be to me great is if that first Blue Jays hitter was drilled and started a brawl and Danny Janssen is fighting with a guy who's hitting for him in the Jay's lineup That would be beautiful that would be symmetry that would be my dream because I love baseball fights that's just got to take notes Here Richard Griffin is advocating for throwing at people all right no I'm kidding um yeah I I it's just one of those cork gri where you you know you've been a fan of the game your whole life you've watched a lot of baseball you've been in a lot of parks for me it's the same and here we have a sport that's existed in a professional form for about 150 years and on Monday August the 26th of 2024 we're we're going to get something that's never happened before it's it's total happen stance I mean Danny Jansen could have been traded to any other contending team in either league in Late July and and today wouldn't be happening but he got traded to Boston and so it it it's G to happen it's it's just it's kind of cool it's a you know it's an old sport yeah here's something new almost the same as when Joel Youngblood got a base hit at Wrigley Field and then got traded to the Expos who were playing at veteran stadium in Philadelphia and he caught a flight as the game was ending in Chicago and he got in uniform and was on the lineup and got another hit for the expose that day so that was pretty cool and I was there to witness that uh a base hit for two different teams on the same day but in this case it's like being in both lineups in the same game which is is also unique but in a different way and and I love it you got to love things like that happening um and the one thing that I thought was going to happen that the manager said was going to happen was that Jose BOS was going to start the suspended game which would not count as a start which would be a relief appearance which would have been Brio's first relief appearance even if he pitched seven Innings it would have been a relief appearance would have been his first relief appearance since September 29 2017 so it would have been 220 consecutive starts uh being broken and I I think that because John Schneider said that this was going to happen that buros was going to pitch in the first game the suspended game I think that they then talk to Jose BOS and in his status as a veteran as as the highest paid well not the highest paid pitcher on the team but as as one of the veteran leaders on the team they gave him the option and he likely chose to go in game two and get his own start because he's got a streak of six straight seasons of 32 starts six straight full seasons is not including 2020 the the the pandemic shortened season but that's impressive and he will have 32 if you include this one game two of this double header and his final five starts which he will get if he's healthy and why wouldn't he be healthy because he's been healthy every day since he was called up to the big leagues and he has the right if he if he did in fact have or offer his opinion in this I I think he's got the right to make that call flying into Boston and then being asked to pitch a day game for a veteran pitcher who's used to uh his his personal preparation that the second game would have been more appealing to him and if offered the choice he would have taken that game so right were you down with me bringing up the Mike Tomlin Pittsburgh Steelers comparison that I shared with you off air definitely it's just it's just me being me but I I look I I think nothing the the the best one of the best traits is availability and reliability and and Jose BOS has that um and he's made all these starts he's he's always makes a start day I mean you counting on that is a huge thing for a major league baseball team all I said off a before we hit record was you know Mike Tomlin and the Pittsburgh Steelers have never had a losing season while he's been head coach you know he play play 17 games in a season now so somehow they snuck to a 10 and seven record and then we're just you know Chum in the water for the Buffalo Bills in the first round of the playoffs last year nobody thought the Steelers were really all that good um Jose BOS is a good pitcher he's just not I I would trade the streak of making consecutive starts not for like a two-month long in y but I I would trade this streak for a more consistent year-long performance more often because he was our sa Young Award winner at the end of April Griff and then the numbers like an ER north of five over a four-month period since that it's just they need more it's not like B Francis where you you hope that he's working on something and will'll discover something because Jose BOS is what he is and he has been since he was with the twins and he had that aberration of a year for the Blue Jays but they were 20 and 12 in his starts that year even when he was not pitching well but you get Jose BOS which is your point I mean like God bless him for wanting to extend his streak to 221 consecutive starts but like what comes with that when when is there a payoff of a a postseason run that takes his team deep into October well I think that sort of your Tomlin analogy is you love that win stat from 2022 oh yeah yeah I use it as often as I can but but yeah and and and you were on the pr side you did not John Gibbons used to sit there in 2015 with Drew hutchon Hutchinson and we'd be like man it's not not going well Gibby and he's like last record Hutcherson was like 12 and two or something but he had a like erra of five and a FIP of a billion and it was like yeah well the reason he's 12- two or whatever it was is because you guys are scoring nine and a half runs a game because you're an elite offensive team and the Jays were a very good offensive team in 202 22 I remember as a PR guy bringing Jose buos out to the media scrum in front of the screen after every start and no matter how poorly he had pitched I would go to his locker and I would say Jose are you ready and he go yeah and I would remind him the team's record when he pitched every start even if he pitched crappy I would I would say you're now 17 and eight in games that you start started and he'd look and he said he'd say thank you Poppy and then he'd go out and do his thing you know so he appreciate the like just even that little bit of positive reinforcement probably was and to that same point when I was coaching uh Oakville Juniors I had a pitcher who had reasonable stuff and he was a starting pitcher and he couldn't get good teams out so I pitched him against teams that we could beat and there were always teams in Koba that you could beat so he compiled like an 8-0 record and his ER was sitting at a pretty reasonable number and he couldn't figure out why when it came to Koba playoffs and and the obas that he wasn't one of the starting pitchers he couldn't figure out that he had only pitched against scrub teams the whole season but that's what you're talking about you can you can manipulate stats and and talent uh if you're good at what you're doing did you ever give him the reason later or maybe he's a listener to the podcast and he's gonna find out right now knowing that you're talking about him I had to give his father the reason ah yeah okay I was cornered I because there's a lot of ways that could go with you there's nice Griff and then there's I don't care Griff where you're just Griff gets Gruff that could be I'll just I'll just tell you the the honest truth in my coaching career I have been ejected seven or eight times and been in two or three fights and so it's not on the surface is not what you get when you put a uniform on you know the calm Griff is not what you get in a see I would have had you at way more than seven or eight yeah yeah that might yeah that might be just I kind of felt let down I I thought you were going to be like I've been run two dozen I think it adds up more so yeah I just I as I said I I umpired a handful of your games when I was a teenager and you were coaching the 1983 born select team and I'm just disappointed that that I never ran you but you gave me no reason to run you but I just think it was be such a fun story if something had happened and I'd run you way back in the mid 90s I've been following the career of Chris Marco who is Burlington product umpire and he's tossed me he's run me and he's now at triaa I saw him in a buffalo bison's box score so I've told John Schneider I want him to come up and I want you to get tossed by him so we have that in Comon you know and he laughed he thought that was hilarious oh that'd be great that'd be that'd be great so Joey vad retires Griff and he will never take an at bat in a Toronto Blue Jay's uniform I've got thoughts on this and how it was handled but I will pass the Baton to you and then react off of what you say [Music] um I thought that he had a lot of in put into cuz you know that he wanted to come up and be here for the Cincinnati Red series uh that's his old team the only team he's ever played for and playing for the Canadian team the team he grew up watching as a as a kid um so you know that that was the goal and when that didn't happen and apparently Scott Mitchell said that he found out that Ross Atkins had driven to Buffalo probably to deliver the news to Joey V that he wasn't going to be called up and some of it might have had to do with the the luxury tax and the and the pro-rated portion of 2 million uh that they would have had to pay vad for the rest of the season that might have put them too close in their mind to the uh to the threshold some of it might have had to do with that but that's not what we're here to talk about we're here to talk about the humanity of it and to me they blew it the BW Blue Jay's blew it by not coming up with a plan they never even issued a statement when he when he retired from the parking lot at Sal and field and sent out the Instagram and then drove home and took an Uber to the ballpark and held his own press conference uh in the tunnel outside the Red's Clubhouse because he wanted to say goodbye to his friends in the Reds Clubhouse so so the you know as they've done many times the Blue Jays blew that situation they could have he they could have said what are your plans he says I'm going to retire and then they could invite him up you know maybe bring him back throw out the first pitch that game I because there's two it's two complicated to put him in uniform for one at bat because now you got to pay him the rest of his salary you got to it goes on his book as the pro rated of 2 million so but they could have done something more gracious and more human than the way that they handled it what are your thoughts on that well as as it was unfortunate that he stepped on that bat at spring training um he would have yeah been taking the place of vogelbach and then when Justin Turner was traded he could have been that guy except he never really recovered to the point where he himself felt he should be and deserved to be back in the major leagues and I think that he had a lot of input in that yeah I I I know I get the reputation of of being critical of this front office and and that isn't going to stop I but I won't I won't be critical here um I I just you know the whole thing has been unfortunate the way that he stepped on that bat after hitting the home run off of Zack Wheeler like for that Split Second in Spring Griff like you're not taking some minor Leaguer who's pitching the eighth inning and will end up in single a deep you're taking Zack Wheeler deep now he might be humping up straight shot fast balls with no movement it's early March whatever but it's still Zach wheeler and so there was this moment where we thought gez maybe Joey vad can come up and be a contributor to this team in a in a not dissimilar way to a Brandon Belt last year and then he steps on this bat nobody in the viewing audience Witnesses it you hear he rolls his ankle you're like okay if it's a high ankle sprain it's going to be a while but he'll get back and then he just never came back and we didn't hear a whole lot about him for a period of time and blah blah blah all of that was unfortunate I just think to your point about the the the money and the CBT extending it further you know rosters don't go to 40 anymore in September they only go up by two from 26 to 28 used to be that it was from 25 to 40 so money aside a roster spot for Joey vad could have been accommodated in September in a different time but for where the Blue Jays are right now the two available roster spots or two additional and available roster spots that come up on September the 1st can be put to much better use and need to be put to much better use VTO has kind of a quirky personality a different personality there was a lot that he did that you know got captured by by cameras and then shared on social media the Sation with kids in the on Deck Circle uh throwing the foul ball onto the roof of R Wrigley Field and watching it trickle back down and land in a Fan's hands down below like cool moments like that that got shared after he retired and there's a there's a whole lot more there's a lot that he does that that goes unseen but I'm not sure he was up for the dog and pony show and I would I take what you say and I I don't totally disagree with what you say but if this series if that Jay's red series was in Cincinnati and I know Joey's a Toronto guy and I know the Blue Jays are Canada's lone major league baseball team and the Reds his only major league baseball team were in town but I I feel like I just I I don't have a problem with this I mean he never he's a Toronto kid but he never played a game in the Jay's uniform like I I I I think you sort of bring him into the conversation what are you comfortable with and his comments to me sort of rang as a guy who didn't want too much made of it given where things were this season for him if you follow me well summer Macintosh never played for the Blue Jays yeah National Sports treasure and threw out the first pitch so that could have been the reason to invite Joey V to throw out the first pitch at least of that game with his team in town but to not even issue a statement to me was was a an insult to uh not Joey vad but to a fan base who had been sort of hanging on his what was going on with Joey vad all season from the time he first signed a minor league contract with an invitation to spring training so I mean not so much and I agree with you that he doesn't want to be part of any uh like look at look at me sportset daily feature you know following him around town and yeah he doesn't want to be a part of that he wants to contribute on the field and when he couldn't do that it was time to pack it in what what are you're what's your thought on whether Joey vad is a Hall of Famer I I I don't think there's a question he's a Hall of Famer and I I did catch a clip of foul territory uh the podcast that Ken Rosenthal is is occasionally a guest on it's it's Scott Braun it's AJ pinski uh our buddy katzy Eric Kats and rotating cast of co-hosts sometimes and were going back and forth and pinski was saying well you know if you look at like a lance burkeman there are a lot of similarities in the Lance burkman numbers to Joey vad and Rosenthal was bouncing back and saying yeah but you know Joey vad led the national league or baseball in on base percentage seven seasons and was listing the accomplishments and I don't think pinski was saying that VTO was is not a Hall of Famer the question was when does he get in and Rosenthal was saying no question first ballot he goes in first ballot and I I just think there's a lot of stuff like and and this isn't sexy this isn't like 780 home runs to set the record or you know nobody you know nobody re Maguire's over a walk and and he had a handful of those in his career but the fact that he went how many plate appearances and how many seasons without fouling out without without popping a ball up to the right side of the infield and committing an out like the bat control the Zone control being that geared and that consistent with your hitting mechanic and your ability to read the strike zone and understand what the pitcher is doing to you this guy in many ways was on a completely different level I I I I I think it's not only inarguable that he's a Hall of Famer I I would argue for him going in in five years when he's first eligible yeah I I think that first ballots used to be very rare but I think voters there's 500 voters approximately that cast a ballot every December um I think that voters have been intimidated by the Nerds and by social media and therefore you can't say just before votes were before the before each voter's picks were revealed you could say well I know he's going to be there in the Hall of Fame eventually I'm not going to vote for him the first year I'll just I think he's a third or fourth year Hall of Famer uh that doesn't happen as much anymore you get more first ballot Hall of Famers but to me Joey vad other than the fact that he's such a good guy and and has those numbers of on base percentage and whatever 409 career on base average um I look at a guy like Carlos Delgado and I say how did Carlos Delgado slip off the ballot maybe in the first second or I forget I haven't looked it up but I know I will vote for Joey vad however long it takes to him to get in I voted for Carlos Delgado um I even voted for Mark Burley for two or three years just to keep him on the ballot and and others were doing the same thing knowing that he eventually wouldn't uh make it to the hall of fame but Joey vad as a a first ballot Hall of Famer I'm not so sure T um I look at Delgado 294 average for V 280 for Delgado uh 409 on base for Votto 383 for Delgado but the Ops of combining on base and slugging is 920 for VTO and uh 929 for Delgado Delgado had 473 home runs to 356 and to me if Delgado can get bumped off so quickly um I'm not so sure that that that vad deserves to be a first ballot Hall of Fame but you know why Delgato got bumped there well actually to me there are two reasons neither of them are neither of them are legitimate so I'm giving you reasons give me your two and I'll I'll the two reasons are There's the link to the steroid era so there's there's the stench of that the one that I think is actually more harmful to Delgado is that he pissed a lot of the freedom crowd off when he took a principled stand and wouldn't and would not stand for the dog and pony show in the seventh inning stretch at Yankee Stadium so soon after 911 and that was actually a couple of years later because he was protesting the United States and the Bush Administration going into Iraq it had nothing to do with 911 but you know you and I have been in stadiums Griff um if you know for example at Tropicana Field you can be in the media meal room not even overlooking the field in the Press Box in the back in the media meal room and they blare the anthems through the speakers in the meal room and if you don't stand you get looked at like you've affronted Kim Jung Un and the North Korean poit Bureau so I think the political stuff and isn't it interesting that Delgado probably gets snuffed out by the people who today scream loudest about keeping politics out of sports as if that's possible and if it's a reality I think Delgado got I I think Delgado had that held against him inappropriately but he did I I disagree on the steroid uh Shadow part of your argument but I will say that the political and part of it was the the the testing of bombs off of the island of Puerto Rico that was part of why he wouldn't go on the field for the God Bless America or whatever it was um and then very quietly he hadn't been going out for the anthem and nobody noticed until I forget how it came up but that I'll agree that was a part of it I was at the winter meetings when he was into his free agency when Delgado was into his free agency and the Scout with the Baltimore Orioles who was a former Major League relief pitcher uh he said I said are you are you guys interested are the Orioles interested in Delgado and he said there's no way we would sign that guy he doesn't stand for whatever the answer God Bless America and God bless the Orioles but that was a stupid reason not to sign one of the best hitters of his generation the other the second reason that I believe that he got bumped so quickly off the ballot was that unlike the annual Awards where there's two votes from each American League City two votes from each National League City for each of the awards annually the Hall of Fame goes with 500 to 550 voters and there's so many of them that are retired and living in the New York area New York Philly that that Northern Northeast Corridor that when he show when Delgado showed up and played with the Mets he was no longer the Carlos Delgado that we remember playing at Skydome and Rogers Center he wasn't that guy he was at the tail end of his career so all the all these voters on TV see a washed up Carlos Delgado and when his name comes up on the ballot they go oh yeah I saw him play not all that great he had a couple of decent RBI years a couple of good home run years um once he left Toronto but I I think that that was a big part of it because of the imbalance of geography when it comes to voters for the Hall of Fame yeah no that's an interesting point and the hip the hip went on him too right I mean that's tell me about yeah yeah geez you'd always come to the ballpark and you'd be like yeah I had to do my hip exercise routine in the hotel room this morning you had these bands and it was just you made it sound like you were God it was like you were training for the gymnastics and the Olympics or something it was was when one of those bands shot me off the wall of the hotel room quit wrecked your other side wrecked your other hip so bashet rejoins the team in Boston and and then he'll be out and play some games for Buffalo before um before he's back and Griff it's gonna kind of line up with September and and what have you um you know there will be an extra roster spot available on the active roster B was never taken off of the 40 like he wasn't placed on the 60 deil or anything but so he'll be back in September and in in in the struggle to come up with something new to say about the bo bashet situation it's been a bad season for him on the field and then it's been an injury riddled season as well so it hasn't gone well when he's been available and then you double down on the problems with injury you and I have talked consistently about thead aiv that he used to play baseball with and how that had very clearly eroded and and to the point of essentially evaporating not existing anymore that they're just where's the joy where's the flare that we got to know from Bob bashet and then we both reference the column in the Toronto Star that that is at least a month and a half old maybe better than uh better part of two months now that Rosie Deano did she sat down with b and one of the things he acknowledged was that he's got to find his fire again and and so here's here's the thing because who knows how the performance is going to be in September he certainly would like it to be good he'd like to salvage his statistics as best as he can but but here's the thing Griff because Bose acknowledged it and it was just so obvious to observers because he played the game a certain way body language and everything else suggested it had gone the other way for him he rejoins a team that is very different than the one he played with up until he got hurt and you've got names like Wagner and L peredo and Barger and Horwitz you've got uh baroa um and you know Bo if he's not back till September it might not cost a guy like broa a roster spot uh broa and he menz you got these guys but those last two guys could be the guys to go because if Bo comes back broa doesn't really have a role in this and and Herz would have less playing time so that's not a problem but continue but but so my point is you got a bunch of guys who are getting their feet wet in the major leagues experiencing varying degrees of success all have experienced some success at times they're excited they're having fun they're competing you know they sweat the Angels yes but even it's not like they're getting their asses handed to them when they lose I mean they are competing and so Bo bhett comes back in and I wonder if just through osmosis and by being around New Blood and excited young players if that doesn't help him in some way recapture that feeling for three and a half or four weeks leading up to the end of the season i' i' just like to see him enjoy it again because it I'm not saying he didn't enjoy it because I haven't asked him but it doesn't feel like he's enjoyed it like he used I think that the month of September or whenever Bo arrives back in the Major League Dugout is going to be more important for Bo than it is for the Blue Jays so it won't be as much about Thea as it is deiv because he needs to look to the rest of his life moving forward the rest of his baseball life so he I'm not saying he'll have tunnel vision in that Dugout but I don't think that his goal will to be will be to to join the party of the young guys I think it will be to reestablish himself and maybe even in doing so being the role model for the younger guys and they're they're all about the same age but in terms of experience we're talking younger guys as as a role model of work ethic and how to go about your job every day and you could see that before he got hurt the second time I saw a guy who previously didn't give a rat's ass about his two strike technique anymore he was he was going for all or nothing and most of the time coming up with nothing he was he had the leg kick on strike two strike one strike two strike three and and just before he got hurt he was going back in fact more of the time before he got to two strikes he was on the toe and and and just making sure that he could be there for good contact and he still has the the bat to ball ability to do damage when he does that so I saw that before the injury I think that when he comes back he'll show that again because he needs to even if he's with the Blue Jays in 2025 he needs to reestablish himself not so that he can beat out Leo Jimenez or Ernie Clement but for the rest of his career 26 years years old he's got another 10 years at least of of optimum production theoretically so he needs to do it for himself not for this team not for the youngsters around him if they pay attention if they all contribute and the team ends up playing close to 500 and and looking good down the stretch that will be enough um I don't think that he will be affected At All by new players new teammates new surroundings new attitude in The Dugout I think he just needs to beat both well we'll see how it how it plays out it's it's it's an Uber important time for him and I I really don't think at this point there's anything he can do to salvage his season um but he's got to put himself in a in a position physically and mentally to feel good going into this off season so that wherever it is uh he is playing in 2025 he is primed to per form and secure the long-term deal that that he'll no doubt be after right before we wrap it up and I think we're going to end with a little NFL at the end of this of the baseball talk but I I just want to make a case and I've been I was on the field in the angel series and I was talking with Perry manasian and I was talking with Bill Stoneman Bill Stoneman deserves to be a Canadian based Hall of Famer I campaign for him every year I'm on the voting committee um he always comes up a little bit short but if Jimmy ke got in this year I believe that bill Stoneman has deserved to be in for a while here's a guy who from 1969 to 73 was a Mainstay of the expansion Montreal expose pitching staff 13 days into the history of the franchise he threw a no hitter 13 days in to the 1969 season through another one in 1972 through 295 innings in 1972 that's unheard of in this day and age um he was 51 and 72 with a 3.98 ER for a team that was bad for four years when he was there he was traded he was sold to the Anaheim Angels on opening day of the 74 season and his first paycheck arrived and he filed a grievance because he wasn't being paid in Canadian funds you never see that anymore Canadian dollar was worth more at the time and he a major league grievance he's a GM he after he left after he retired as a player he moved to Georgetown Ontario and he went into the financial business came back upon request to be in the front office of the Montreal Expos and was there during the 94 season was in charge of the payroll of a team that dominated baseball and should have won and was also an interim GM during that period when he was back there uh had the blueprint of a new stadium that would have saved the franchise downtown this guy has done it all for Canadian baseball for the Expos was the first was the only GM to win a World Series for the Anaheim Angels and so you know I talk about him every year should be in the Hall of Fame Canadian Baseball Hall of Fame I'm hoping that it happens this year especially after Jimmy key winning well put and uh we'll keep an eye out for that that'd be that'd be that'd be great I obviously didn't get to see Bill pitch uh but I definitely remember that 2002 Anaheim Angels team they were called the Anaheim Angels at the time and yeah I mean they they were the best team in baseball right that was a great series it was one of the best World Series the Angels were down five in the bottom of the eighth of game six trailing three games to two Barry Bonds was like five outs from the World Series and the Giants blew that game the Angels Came Back won it and then took it in seven and I believe correct me if I'm wrong a rookie by the name of John Lackey started game seven for the angels and and it was uh Dusty Baker's son being saved at home plate by JT snow and Dusty's boy is early 20s now and I was he a Washington Nationals minor leager yeah yeah he Darren Baker right yeah good college career and he went on and he's he's I think he's playing a little pro ball now but uh yeah it was a terrific series come back in all West Coast so the games were ending at 8 and the bar State open till 3 in the morning it was fabulous yeah and I and then I remember Griff the very next year Dusty managing the 2003 All-Star game because he was the Giants manager in the O2 World Series but he wore a Chicago Cubs uniform because he had the falling out with the Giants and the contract came up and he moved to Chicago and I was I I remember watching the 03 All-Star game going that's probably the only time the national league manager is going to be wearing a Cubs Jersey now the genius reprised the role in 2017 legitimately but uh at that time it was and said we are so proud Joe so we are so we are so proud all right NFL you want to have a little fun with this so I'm I'm clearly getting amped up um as we sit here on Monday August the 26th I'm two weeks away from my first panic attack because the Niners don't open until Monday night September the 9th against the New York Jets at Levi Stadium your Bears I think open against the Titans if I'm not mistaken right there yeah okay all right so confidence I like that yeah I I just don't understand the second game of the season being played in Brazil like I think on the Friday they're playing in sou Paulo the Eagles it's a home game for the Eagles hosting hosting in air quotes the Packers in Brazil yeah yeah seems weird yeah so this is the year where the NFC has the extra home game in the 17 game schedule so what ends up happening is some NFC teams will trade a home game at their place for an alternate location London Germany yeah so like other than the Jacksonville Jaguars who play a home game in London England every year I think every Europe an based game this fall will be hosted by an NFC team and like last year it was an AFC team hosting so I I I think that that's part of it um they've never played a regular season game in Brazil the other thing and I I don't know what the Eagles situation is Griff but a few years ago each NFL team was able to take a so-called International Market so like for example the 49 ERS took Mexico and they're not the only team but so a lot of their International uh advertising and international Outreach is in Mexico which makes sense because uh a lot of people have moved from Mexico to California cheer for the 49ers Niners played a road game in Mexico City against the Arizona Cardinals two years ago and 90% of the stadium was cheering for the ners so there's that sort of thing I don't know if Philadelphia claimed Brazil as one of their International markets but if they did this would make even more sense I got a surprise team and a disappointing team and my surprise team is going to be the Miami Dolphins I mean everybody likes their offense I think they're going to win the division wow okay my disappointing team is the Atlanta Falcons and Raj madani will be pleased that I'm picking KK cousin's new team as the big disappointment maybe he would be happy because if the Falcons were to make the playoffs they'd win their division and be the fourth seed and if the Vikings could be a wild card team and play Atlanta in the playoffs he'd like a shot at kind of a long and win um my surprise team is going to usurp your surprise team because or no sorry your no you and I are on the same page let me correct that my surprise team is going to do to your disappointing team what it needs to do in order for you and me to be right the New Orleans Saints and why do I think the New Orleans Saints are going to win the NFC South Division because a kubak not just because he's Gary's son I don't care about that but one of the two kubak boys who were both on Kyle Shanahan's offensive coaching staff last year kubak is the new offensive coordinator of the New Orleans Saints and whatever is left of Derek Carr will be maximized Elvin Kamar they've got weapons Chris olave is a hell of a young wide receiver they've got weapons and they finally have an offensive coordinator in my opinion who stands a chance of maximizing that and my my my disappointment I don't know if this qualifies but it does for me because I'm sick of them already and I'm tired of hearing about him and I'm tired of hearing about them and I know that they've got six Prime Time games in the first half of the season so just please bullet Temple send me send me send me to the graveyard now the New York Jets oh okay I just can't I can't with him I can't with them you know who him is the quarterback I can't with him I can't with them um I look at that logo Griff and there are some of these littered throughout Pro Sports in the different leagues that Jets logo equals failure for me now I wasn't alive when namoth won and shocked the world in January of 69 and they beat the Baltimore Colts Baltimore Colts and it was a big deal the an AFL team beat an NFL team back then it was is very different but ever since then so I just I wonder how a 40-year-old quarterback coming off an Achilles tear who traditionally was Elite because of his ability to throw dimes well scrambling I'm not saying he can't he can't he can't run a pocket based offense I'm just wondering if Aaron Rodgers has the mobility that he used to have I'm betting not and he's also got eight games on that crappy turf at MetLife Stadium that he's got to get through so we'll see I'll tell you this I'm not cheering for them he uh he's following the path of Brett Favre you know it might end up in a similar situation um yeah I'm Broadway Joe became my hero at poolside that 196 if he follows the path of Brett Favre all the way to Minnesota next year Griff we need to be in the same room as a rash madani when that news breaks and then we need to have him on this podcast if you want to actually see a guy's head explode and brain matter land everywhere that happens it'd be a thing anyway I think it's time to to wrap this baby up so uh what do you got let's let's end this all right well we'll put a wrap on it Jay's as we sit here on Monday August the 26th are about 45 minutes away from starting this unique and interesting double header so we'll recap that next week they've got fiveish with the Red Sox and three with the Minnesota Twins and then we'll be back at you uh next Monday with the next episode of the exit philosophy podcast Griff's the .c is wherever you can get uh or is where you can get all of Griff's work uh that includes multiple weekly columns a weekly MLB power rankings column conversations with current and former Blue Jays and former Montreal Expos which are all archived so they're all available to you you can also get the exit philosophy podcast there we are also on YouTube at youtube.com exit philosophy we'd appreciate a subscription uh please like rate write a review wherever it is you've listened to us wherever it is you get your podcasts and we'll be with you again next week thanks Scotty and have a safe trip back to Australia Oz Rob enjoyed meeting you thanks and uh we'll talk to you next week