George R.R. Martin vs House of the Dragon

Countdown [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] Introduction hello everybody Welcome to take the black live the show where we talk about all things sci-fi fantasy movies TV horsey Dragon space lasers and authors fighting showrunners my name is Dan sui I'm the editor of winers com.net here with Daniel Roman who has a lot of hair the other editor of w.net I was gone last week glad you guys had a great time without me but I'm back this time and I've come back on what will then what will henceforth be known as drama Wednesday Daniel how are you and what's going on uh I am good Dan I am good and I think what's going on uh you know sounds like people in the chat already know we've got a fair bit of Juicy Westeros tinged drama going on on this Wednesday fully unplanned I I would just like to say we had a whole whole ass show planned that was not this but now we need to talk about this because there's some stuff happening but uh Howard how are you Dan I'm pretty well uh I was out last week because I was seeing the Lord of the Rings a musical tale musical here in Chicago at the how was it Tre Shakespeare Theater it was so entertaining and I'm so glad that I saw it um it was fun it was interesting it was different we'll talk about it later but yeah let's dive into this now so if you guys aren't so this is mostly kind George R.R. Martin's House of the Dragon season 2 blog post of at its roots A Game of Thrones uh House of the Dragon Westerose podcast and there is some drama a bubbling between some of the main players behind the scenes of these shows so George Martin the author of A Song of Ice and Fire and Fire and Blood the show on which Game of Thrones P drag Bas respectively um has been teasing for a while that he's going to share his issues with the second season of House the dragon that wrapped up last month I think um and today he did or he started to quite frankly this blog post sounds like the first Salvo in what could be a barage start um and he's hinted that he's had some problems with it look we reviewed House of the Dragon pretty thoroughly here uh feel free to go back and watch other episodes recaping the episodes reviewing the episodes rather um and look we read Fire and Blood we're fans of the books are you really happy SM I know what's up oh no I'm just looking at in the chat uh tgrl wtfr uh I tell me how to pronounce your name I'm sorry it's just a bunch of letters saying uh hi guys this is insane uh r as o i a That's the Song of Ice and Fire Reddit uh are they're deleting any post that mentions the George R Martin blog post oh he deleted the blog HBO today he deleted it the internet remembers I see it oh wait no I don't whoa that's crazy yeah okay well clearly things are being intense so will go ahead and talk about it so Georg Martin wrote this blog post I think it was called beware the butterflies or something um and he basically uh did what he promised he said he was he has some problems house the dragon he's gonna share them and he did it in in a respectful way it wasn't a complete trashing or anything I don't think it's it's it's it's fair to portray it like that but he basically went over some problems he had with the show changing his book specifically in the first episode of the second season a son for a son which ended with the blood and cheese incident where a couple of hired goons uh decapitate Helena targaryen's Young sanj Harris and look again we read the book we knew there were tons of changes um we were and and we didn't like all of them some of them were good that was kind of my opinion of the entire season I had some issues but I I liked a lot of them too uh this one I didn't love and Georgia and Martin just basically went through all the changes and to him he did not really uh enjoy them he was talking about so in the in the book version of this in the show version of this scene Helena blood and cheese these mercenaries find Helena targaryan of the red keep s by Targaryen and uh they confront her with her two twins Harrison Jara they're like which one's the boy she's like that one they kill the boy she runs away and it took out a lot from George Martin's book where Helena has three kids Jara jaras and malor and blood and cheese make her choose which of the sons to die meor and Jaris she chooses meor they kill Jaris instead and then they peace out after begging that she her instead after kill her instead that's a big thing that they cut in the show she just tried to give him a necklace instead which by the way that to me is the most baffling bit I actually understand when another funny bit is that at the same time this blog post dropped HBO released a yes uh special episode of The House of the Dragon podcast where Ryan Condell has asked questions about adaptation and he kind of explains why he chose to do what he did or why his team did um which seemed pretty clearly like it was timed to um do some damage control because they knew that Georgia or Martin block was going live and they knew that we were going to have to um say something about it uh and I didn't mind his explanation he was saying that you know it's hard to hire these very young child actors at minimum the reason they were asleep not awake like they are in the book is because you're not going to get that level of drama out of like four-year-old actors or just not which I I I do sympathize with I get it I I didn't really mind The Cutting of meor I did think not having Elena react more dramatically was a really weird Choice CU if your son is getting decapitated wouldn't you be upset and that she wasn't because she didn't beg for like take me instead seems like a natural thing to do I didn't understand that uh but anyway jojan didn't like any of this and his main gripe was cutting mord this younger son because how detail do I get here basically uh mayor lives in the book and he dies at a later point and that death is the precipitation of another huge event I'll just go ahead and spoil it you're already talking about in the comments I think we can spoiler this one George spoilered it on his blog today so if you really don't want the spoiler from Fire and Blood maybe tune out for a couple of minutes but we're gonna talk about it perhaps that's why he deleted the post yeah it's weird anyway so Helena Sun mailor sent away from the city as is Jara the other surviving kid Jara gets to safety relatively speaking and uh malor is killed in front apart by a mob who wants to get the reward and when news of that reaches King's Landing it is kind of what pushes Helena over the edge and she takes her own life and that precipitates another big event where the people of King's Landing Riot and they push reneer out of the city broad strug I think it's enough and George Martin is basically complaining about or saying that well if we don't have meor then he's not going to die and that's not going to push Helena over the edge Ed and some whoever said that um we need to stop acting like Helena's going to die in season 3 part of Martin's original blog post was he says that in the outline at least Helena's suicide is in there but uh for season 3 house the dragon but it happens for no particular reason now because he thinks this reason is going to be removed which is probably the sauciest bit of the entire blog post the most snarky um I'm gonna say one more thing and turn over to you so personally I I mean I'm not a rider on the TV show I should be a but I'm not I can imagine other things driving Elena to despair I agree with the commenter who said that yeah it definitely does bother me she doesn't grieve it doesn't seem like a terribly human reaction which is not really touching what Martin touched on or what kind touch on in his response I didn't really get the the way they did Helena this season I I mean I've never been a a parent yet but I don't know if you see your young son decapitated wouldn't you be upset like I I I I can imagine that getting into you and that they didn't really have that Arc for her was weird um saan uh somebody thinks that it was unprofessional of Martin and Petty I imagine that it that probably occurred to him to he did say in the post that you know he thought the EP were terrific he uh complimented the team on what they did but yeah he was also pretty salty he's very attached to this stuff I also agree with Esso what supposed to say say nothing which he could this is a naughty difficult topic Martin clearly cares about this stuff he clearly cares about his work and he cares how it's portrayed and he's invested in it and it clearly upsets him when they changed this much and they have changed a lot so yes K he had a battle in head maybe it wasn't the right decision to publish this clearly again he might have thought so because he retracted it uh it was honest I don't think anybody's really the bad guy here um I will say I don't even really think that that taking out mord need uh [ __ ] the rest of the series and there's that final bit in the blog post where he teased more toxic butter flies to come I Was Made nervous though by a lot of what happened in season 2 and am concerned about uh maybe leaving this team to make changes unadulterated but we can talk about that a little later Daniel what are your first impressions of this whole um falder floop yeah um so I wanted let me see I there were some comments I wanted to respond to and I think have no doubt you guys are it up because you guys are really really active in the chat which we love great to see you here um I so I think I think whoever said in the chat that probably him mentioning the season 3 stuff the season 3 outline that he had seen might have been I think if HBO could have pulled anything on him aside from just like a general disparagement clause or something it probably would be that that would make him because he's been saying he's going to do this for a while so it's not like this is you know it was on their radar I I highly believe it was like he made headlines last week saying I'm gonna talk about this soon and now he talked about it and the post is suspiciously gone and HBO like you said put out an unplanned episode of their official House of the Dragon podcast today and I say unplanned because they had one more final episode they were planning to do and this is not it they say at the beginning we've pushed that one back but we had a lot of questions from book listeners about the changes to adaptations and the book to screen changes so we just thought we'd bring Ryan condal onto the podcast to answer them to me and I don't this is speculation it really reads like HBO saw that George R Martin was saying I'm going to come throw some shade at House of the dragon and they wanted to get ahead of it because when does someone ever expect George R Martin to turn around and publish a thing like three days later that he said he was gonna publish like he was pretty damn fast with this whole Helena melor post that came out today um so I think my read is I think HBO was hoping to get ahead of it with their house of the Dragon put out really quickly you know days after Martin said he was going to talk about this and it made headlines all across the internet um they didn't get of it Martin beat them to it by posting his thing about mayor and I think you know the I thought he was pretty even-handed with his discussion of blood and cheese right he said he could agree with both show Watchers who enjoyed it because on premise it's still a really good scene while still seeing the perspective of the scene in the book was better and he could understand you know it sounds like he he had discussed with Ryan Condell that they were going to push meor back to season 3 Helena would give birth late in the show and she'd have a baby basically um but instead at some point unbenounced to him it sounds like it became the case that they just decided they weren't going to do mord at all and then that obviously has a cascading effect can they still find ways for Helena's ultimate fate to work sure but will it be as compelling as what he wrote I don't know um you know after season two it's I think it's pretty fair to be skeptical about it um so yeah I this is just it is rare to see this level of feuding from authors who are still on good terms with their adaptations like who haven't been like written out of it or something you know what I mean like uh you know like Ursula Kaya Gwinn with that that earthy adaptation which we may or may not talk about a little bit more but there was an adaptation of Earth like kwin's Earth sea books in like the early 2000s and it did some things with the characters like it whitewashed her characters in a way she found really off-putting and she didn't have any attachment to that adaptation so she just said this sucks and I'm free to tell you that it sucks but Martin is still pretty involved um I thought he kind of tiptoed very close to the line of disrespectful with this I don't think it was over the line I like I think he's still supported himself in pretty much the way he always does and he did this with Game of Thrones too where he grumbled about butterflies and whatever but yeah I I so you haven't listened to any of the House of the Dragon podcasts yet oh you listen to all of it yeah okay so what was your take on it because I'm not gonna lie I when it first dropped I was like oh damn I feel kind of bad for these guys and then I listened to it and it just made me mad yeah so your opinion on it first of all uh with with the comments there you guys are being amazing um I I agree it was probably the season three thing that maybe got him to take it down I disagree with you I I do think this crossed a bit of a line I mean's been in TV for a long time like he I sympathize that he's clearly cares about this obviously that's why we love him that's why he's so good yes but um I don't know to talk about what's coming to the third season in an outline that may or may not get published uh seems a little I can I can uh believe that that was what maybe caused HBO to say like hey um agree take that take that down maybe I mean professional unprofessional he has his feelings I don't think it's bad for him to express them I like that he's this passionate I think it's a mess situation I I don't think there are villains and no I I wasn't mad listening to Ryan Condell I thought a lot of his explanations made sense my so he kind of walks through a lot of different uh uh questions about why he changed what he did and the conclusion that I basically Drew from them is I get why you thought you needed to make this change here I just didn't always like the change he made like he talks about um Damon and heren Hall and he's talking about umw in the book it just says he rolls over there and raises an army and we were like well we had to give Matt Smith uh something interesting to do and okay I can see where where you're saying that I think the problem is you didn't really give him anything interesting to do I thought the dreams were pretty shallow and superficial not very interesting I thought it dragged I thought from something else or just don't have him in as much they don't address the multiple alicent Renea me but they do he does talk about well we decided to tell the story from the point of view of Alison andr and viserys's family and I'm like okay I see why you want to narrow down but I I think in in deciding to commit to Alison and rira as the main characters it it probably felt like they needed to get them back together even though they had to like contort in my opinion the plot into weird shapes to make it happen in Psychology there's this thing called functional fixedness where you have trouble looking at an object and seeing it as anything other than its intended purpose so like if you have a box like a box is for putting things in and that keeps you from using it creatively like as a step or something or the mind of a child like a box can be a time machine or a car um I feel like if you decide that Allison and rira are your main characters then you can't continence the big big dramatic pivots of the Season not involving them even though forcing it to involve them feels forced I don't disagree with the logic how they got to that point I just don't think the choices were good like cutting Nettles too he addressed and he's like well we wanted it to be about viserys's family and uh we're going to make Raina an important part of it and SOB Choice he didn't wow you're intense he didn't say he didn't say no it's pretty clear that they repl the character n from the book with Raina from the show which I'm sure could be a good story just um it it felt like because they decided this is about bis's family giving a lot of time to a character who is outside of that family wasn't part of the plan again kind of functional fixedness I don't think it's a good choice but I didn't think his explanations were like incredibly bizarre I feel like some screenwriters get into this like they fetishize Arc you know it's always like what's that character's Arc and no one ever I feel like no one ever says like well maybe this season they don't have an arc like maybe it's it's a long game it's okay for them not to change their entire Viewpoint for a season and just to kind of do some stuff and get from point A to point B in the plot and they can change the their internal lives another time but I feel like it's like a it's like a it's like a Dogma in screenwriting that a character needs an arc every season so Damon has to go from this place where he's against fera to where he accepts her even though the actual journey I I don't think was very entertaining and I think it made him less interesting as a character in the end so I that kind of my read on what happened but I don't it didn't make me mad no it made me think that he's a screenwriter trying to do his best I like some of the changes I liked the Battle of Rook rest change where Aon um blast aan I thought that was fun my and and and he talked about that too but I I I I do think there's a lot of like change for change's sake or I didn't like a lot of the choices they made and some of them I did my main concern now is like do they how do they come back from this are they in a feud is it just a perception they're in a feud and is there much of a difference like is this damaging to be kind of openly online in a bit of a very polite war of words with the person who created the show that you are uh making who wrote the book that you were adapting um I don't think it's a good look although people do love drama Kendrick and um Drake were more interesting fighting uh than they'd ever been apart so maybe this will only be a huge exciting thing people just love to slap up with a spoon yeah I think that will be an interesting thing and time will tell um I do agree that it's not a great look I do agree that it also brings attention I also think you know how much will it affect not chronically online people probably not very much so there are all these different levels of how much of an issue is this really um I imagine they're all having conversations today honestly if he pulled down his yeah there obvious there obviously Communications are happening um but you know I agree with you like a show like this is gonna have to make changes but I course there's just kind of like a con I don't want to say condescending but like the so choosing to focus on Allison and rira like for example that like that's a fine choice but twisting and turning things to be able to make it so they meet every season is just not having confidence in your audience being able to have the attention span to carry through you know Jon Snow and Daenerys and Cersei Lannister were some of the main characters of Game of Thrones they basically hardly ever met until very late in the series you know not counting the time when everyone was at Winterfell where Cersei and John didn't even cross paths so like you know that's kind of the nature of these big sprawling stories is not everyone's going to meet every time um the things that bugged me about the house of the Dragon podcast because it did really feel like damage control to me um it was they got into the yes it was and if you listen to it Ryan Condell kind of stutters over his words a little bit more at the end when he's asked specifically about how he handles things with George uh so this is one of the things that frustrated me and this is a common topic so let us know in the chat what you think about this so Condell said on the podcast unlike A Song of Ice and Fire or a KN of the Seven Kingdoms Fire and Blood is a history book it's not a narrative it's not written in point of view it is a history described by three unreliable narrators there are intentional which is not 100% correct but we don't need to split hairs on it there are intentional holes in the historical fabric that's part of the fun and the way that it was written and I think the other thing to highlight too is that there aren't characters in the text per se but rather historical figures now of course Damon and Allison and reneir are all characters because they occupy a fictional world but the way that they are covered in the historical text is the way that any historical text would be covered or historical figure would be covered in a history book so as dramatists I think we have to approach this history um as though it is fictional uh though it is fictional as anyone would do adapting a chapter from Real History and I think that's just garbage um this this has been a back and forth debate all season long like it's a history book They're filling in the lines and like that is true to an extent George R Martin is never going to write a Dance of the Dragons internal POV book it's just not going to happen so on the one hand that yes this is written as a history book because it is purposely displayed that way with conflicting narrators and and a narrator who was sifting through their accounts but there are also moments where that element Falls away blood and cheese is a great example of this and Martin kind of confirmed this in his blog where he just said this is what happened um even though there are conflict view points there are moments where the Nar that falls away and Martin just tells you the thing that happened or something is such a matter of public record that it doesn't even rely on the three people whose accounts are being told and instead the person just says the the maer who's interpreting their account says we all know this is what happened Lor valaran getting murdered is a good example of that Lor valaran died uh the show was like well what if he didn't you know this is history and who got to write it you know the victors so I think it's taking the this is a history book too literally because these are fictional characters and the only real account we have of what they are like is Fire and Blood Martin intentionally wrote characteristics for these characters in Fire and Blood to convey what he thought the characters were like through a murky lens but to then take you know Damon as a good example Damon goes to the riverlands and immediately starts displaying why he's the most competent battle commander in West Ro and why the greens should be afraid of him and the show does the exact opposite um and I think that that is a pretty good example of like changes where you're almost taking the this is a history book to the extreme and kind of abusing that as an excuse to basically write I hesitate to say fanfic because like no shade at fanfic like it's its own thing lots of people love it but it feels like that when you have like you have a book you could be adapting events from and instead you're really just going off down the rabbit hole on your own thing uh that really does bring to mind the quotes he said about like screenwriters wanting to make it their own because when you're leaving out things from the source material to really emphasize plot lines that are made up that are leaning on that idea of well we don't know the actual history even though like the only history that exists is this book that George Martin wrote so like we do kind of we just don't know specifics like the examples where he gives like these three people said three conflicting things usually it's kind of alluded to that one of them is actually credible so like hel what happens to Helen is a good example there are multiple things where it said this could have happened this could have happened we don't know why Helena made her ultimate choice that resulted in tragedy uh but George just came out today and confirmed there was an actual reason and it was one of the three op options and I think that's a lot more prevalent than the showrunners are giving showrunners giving it credit for so that's one that frustrated me I agree that they they pick and choose I mean in in the podcast he says all the stuff about we fill in the lines we add color but when asked about like specific things he does give specific answers and I I I guess I you could accuse him of being disingenuous if you assume that I don't know they're all back there telling each other like well the book doesn't say that this really new crazy thing happened so it's because it's a history book we can add it in I don't know if that's really happening uh like again like I understood his reasoning for not including malor because of child actor stuff I I even kind of understood their ideas for focusing on Allison or or or or or or for giving Damon more to do in terms of they want Matt Smith to have more to do and they want Damon to have an arc that stuff makesense to me I don't think you need to justify it by telling yourself that well Fire and Blood doesn't say what everything so we're free to add in anything because I think that's clearly like if you read the book yes you know that basically not the intent you're right there absolutely are points where if information is missing he says so and if there are multiple um versions of what might have happened uh he'll enumerate them all yeah I agree that there's one point in in the podcast where Condell says that um we rever we give the book reverence respect there's difference between reverence and worship um I think the show is on the wrong side of of that line I do not think it showed enough reverence I think that they just added things in and they subtracted things that were just too big like you said they too often did the opposite of what was written in the book which is not yes a good adaptation um but again I don't think it was malicious I think they're doing what they want to do not the choices I would have made the choices Martin would have made uh but it's what ended up happening I liked one person up in the chat said that maybe Martin is saying this stuff uh because he wants to affect things while he still can while they're still making season while they're still a chance for them to Pivot at all the question is and I don't actually I mean I I I don't know George Martin myself um my guess is he he's always just an emotional person who loves what he does and loves his characters I think he felt something and he expressed it um the question about that comment though is does this have any chance of affecting things going forward or does this spoil the chance for him to affect things going forward because uh will is is going to make a feud which they can't come back or really could he I remember like a week ago at some conference he said like I shouldn't warp this at all there are plenty of authors just turn over their writing materials and then just don't worry about it clearly it's stressing him out and he doesn't really have any power over this like he's not in the writers room he's not on the staff he has a lot to do he is a he's always a busy bee so if going to do what they're going to do anyway there's probably a good argument that he should maybe just focus on his stuff and let the chips fall where they may in Westeros yeah I think that's a hard I think that's a hard thing I mean I I agree with you and I think that is probably going to be the way this goes um because I think if we're seeing Martin do posts like this it is because he already probably feels like he isn't able to affect stuff as much as he would like um and you know it's important so this was another thing that really really bugged me about the um the the podcast with Ryan condal uh near the end he talks about how adapting T things for TV is different television is a collaborative medium it's different than those mediums where it's just a single person art form like writing a book um and like like look man George R Martin he gets that like he worked in TV for for a decade like if this is not and I'm not throwing shade at Brandon Sanderson here but this is not a Brandon Sanderson Sanderson situation where like sometimes he talks about TV and stuff and I'm like I don't know how well you really know how the whole process works based on the way you're saying things should just be different Martin never gives that Vibe because he's worked in that industry he fully understands that like Condell said you can't have 17 set pieces in a show like this like he gets that like totally but that know it's all about choosing where you are going to have them like they made a choice to make the sewing a whole big set piece that isn't really it worked it's not really the way it's written so they chose to emphasize that as a large set piece rather than fit in something like the gullet which is their choice but that is a choice they made about what to emphasize so it's not like he's asking for too much it's all about where you're choosing to put the emphasis I agree um and yeah I think there's probably already a feeling of things slipping away and I think meor is probably a pretty fair example of that because he was told one thing and then later found out it would be something else and now he just has no freaking clue what they're gonna do with meor and Helena and Rickard Thorne is completely pointless uh you know he I like that he did address like well they could do it with Jara but like she's important down the line so I hope they don't do it with Jara because she's needed elsewhere so I think that yeah I think ultimately he probably will have to surrender some control over this because that is just the way things are going um it makes me really curious for a night of the Seven Kingdoms uh because that's coming out next year and I have heard that there's reason to be optimistic that it will probably be more faithful than House of the Dragon is being right now um and yeah it's I don't know it's it's weird interesting times what do you think is there a coming back from this is this what does this do the future of these things they're all mature adults you can come back from anything like this um the rules are a little different in in fandom spaces there is a bit more open emotion there's a bit more sharing your opinions George art Martin as established as he is I don't think it's ever quite lost the fan mindset where if you don't like something you complain about it um online God knows I've done it um and that might not be like the the the standard operating procedure for someone who's in the industry and and a professional at it but it is what a fan does and he's a fan I don't blame him I don't blame Condell I agree I don't think there are bad guys here I hope they can work it out I mean I think whoever said and you guys are counting so fast I can't keep up so you guys are great um Julie Davis of course of course you understands the process I like Victor's comment I think we should forget about the books and focus on whether they are going to do with the series whether it's consider consistent and coherent ending for the characters I think that's the only sane thing to do sure because it's it's not the book anymore and that doesn't have to be a bad thing again I have liked changes from the book others I haven't but um the show can still be very good and there are problems that go beyond all of this like my least favorite change was Allison working with rira which I do think is just agree a completely against the spirit of conflict in the book I agree but um I probably would like this season a lot more if they had ended on some kind of big climactic event and that wasn't about book changes that was about most likely budget issues which but although you're right they could have saved the budget elsewhere and used it but that's fair it's a messy situation uh I hope that everything goes smoothly and I agree with Victor again that um we should just focus on the show whether it can do good I hope George Martin doesn't stress out about this too much and that he focuses on things that matter to him and is happy and also wres the WIS a winner and hopefully those two things can coincide yes what does yeah yeah I um I I lost what I was gonna say what were you gonna say I do think that now when the writers are crafting things season three and season four they inition everything else they to think they to think like if we do this is George or Martin going to WR an angry blog post about it and uh maybe they will who knows what that will inspire we're going to do it anyway yeah screw him or no we can't do it he'll be mad um and will it be good or bad I don't know nobody knows nobody knows anything we're all spitting in a void of chaos and uncertainty yeah and it is it is going to be interesting to see how that relationship develops I saw someone saying in the chat a while back that he should be you know griping about the fact that they had two episodes cut off not directing this ey toward the show writing decisions and I I'll be honest I don't know what's going to happen now since he's taken this blog post down presumably he's been on the phone with HBO today or whatever I assumed he was gonna get there I assumed that was one of the things he was GNA discuss was the fact that house of the Dragon got two episodes chopped off pretty seemingly late into its development and how that affects things because there there's not to use the the screenwriter term that you dislike D but there was an arc to this chapter of Fire and Blood that kind of fell by the wayside because of the way the season was structured um and yeah whether it will mean that there's more bad blood I hope not I think it's it's so frustrating because like I get the the Ryan condal point of view like they do have to make a good dramatic show totally like George talked about how he had the idea to set um the first episode of season one like 30 years before like riro was even born it would have been the heir and despair which is the it's the story of how King viseris and Damon's dad ended up dying uh and their Uncle ended up dying which is what caused the Great Council of 101 AC was never going to happen so like it's not like this show needs to take the word of George R Martin as gospel but when he points out these things may have cascading effects down the line like that's a gift he's giving you to think about the future ramifications of things so yeah uh we'll see what happens uh I'm hopeful that it will all work out for the best I'm even more hopeful for a night of the Seven Kingdoms but we'll see uh say felt off yeah I agree Chris we didn't feel off but again it's it's hard for us to know what exactly it was or why exactly it happened and all we can do is wait and wish everyone involved the best which I do and um I'm looking forward to Seven Kingdoms which I do hope is a little more faithful so usually uh we spent 40 minutes on the first section in our outline we're probably gonna have a bit of a a shortened rest of the show but while you're here we do this every week everybody at um when every Wednesday at 2 pm Central Standard your time on the winterers coming Facebook page and the winter coming YouTube page um you know what I think you should do I think you should subscribe to us I think you should come back and join us every Wednesday or watch our live streams archived afterwards we make other videos too we run a website wners com.net about all things sci-fi fantasy movies TV books Etc uh subscribe click the Bell um leave a dollar under your pillow and we'll come into your bedroom and take it we won't do that sorry that's just a joke um but I hope that uh you stick around because we enjoy having you and you enjoy having us now really fast uh Game of Thrones prop auction I'm just I'm just going to blast through some of this yes of course before you blast before you blast also I said this in the chat but in case anybody missed it since this blog post is now down there are a few places you can find it one is the Song of Ice and Fire Reddit we also Dan wrote a great breakdown of this post that is on winteriscoming.net so if you uh we have not been called by HBO yet so it's still up so if you want to go check that out um you can go check out what Martin wrote there um and also we're on Spotify all those the typical podcast places too if you're an audio person what if HBO calls us jokes on you I don't get service I live in the farest HBO but yes all right so what do we have to get through in the rest of our show okay really fast just um there's a giant Game of Thrones auction going down October 12 10th to 12th at Heritage auctions in I believe Dallas Texas remotely they're going to auction off 9900 Lots thousands of props from Game of Thrones if I could get one I would 100% get the shame Bell the real shame bell used to shame cerse through the streets in mother's Merc I would ring that thing so often whenever I was even slightly annoyed $3,000 opening bid probably not going to get it but oh that would be awesome if anybody wants to get me a gift from uh the Game of Thrones auction on uh October 10th to 12th Heritage auctions get me the shame Bell yeah they've got what is that I see a wheelchair I think that's supposed to be br's wheelchair I think it's Duran Martell's wheelchair although BR is also on dornish oh that's why I got confused I remember you had mentioned that Brands was on there yeah it's also on sale they everything is dude it's like every if you name it's there yeah look at those there's a Trader uh one of those Trader slips of paper that the knight's watch gave Jon Snow before murdered him um yeah yeah lots of good stuff if you have thousands of dollars to burn and you would like some props from Game of Thrones you can get them I think they even have like the touring version of the Iron Throne I think the bid for that started at like five grand it's like what how can I convince someone that we need this thing obviously that would be cool yeah definitely check it out if you're interested that is it's a rare thing for a show to auction off like 9,000 items nuts 2,000 items from its production uh with like explicit notes about every scene they were in and stuff like that so pretty cool what else is on the docket Dan also really I mean I wanted to talk because the Big Show on now is the Lord of the Rings the rings More The Rings of Power reactions! of power is the uh main program the main fantasy program fker watching and uh I know you guys talked about it last week what was your verdict on how it's going so far the first three episodes um I think it is going fine I think so here's the thing I'm enjoying some parts of this more than I expected to I'm catching myself zoning out at other parts of it I think I think there's some part of me that is realizing and you just have to accept this if you want to engage with the rings of power in a non disgusted way that this is like corporate made to like it feels like it's made by a corporation in a way that not every show does um so I think it's beautiful to look at I think some of the actors are doing really good work I'm really enjoying Charlie Vickers as Sauron Charles Edward as Kell bmore um the dwarves give Duren and daa their own show like I would watch a whole show of Duren and diesa just like go into the market and trying run away is they abs every time they're on screen they are I pay more attention I enjoy it so much more um newor feels a little like I I read somewhere that they had some editing problems with new Manor and I kind of believe it because it doesn't even show up until the third episode and it's a little all over the place um so there are things I'm liking about it and things that are still it doesn't feel like a huge leap forward I guess from season one like it's a little more improved it's a little more confident but it is still very much the same show um but I'm enjoy like I'm happy to be watching it I'm going to watch the rest of the season It Is by no means making me like dispirited and upset by any stretch like I have settled in I I'm accepting the ride I'm excited to uh see people's reactions to Tom Bombadil because I have seen a few episodes ahead at this point and that is coming at some point this season um but yeah what are your thoughts Dan because your thoughts were the ones we really missed last week more or less the same um yeah it's it's I'm glad that to enjoy this show I have to just settle into the fact that it's going to be um kind of mediocre and pulpy fun at its best and it is pulpy fun sometimes it's very heavily um contingent on what storyline we're watching whether I enjoyed or not I agree with everything you said the dwarves are great I like The Hobbit characters I'm not entirely sold on the stranger plot um but I like The Hobbit characters it uh it should have been called um the we folk and it should have been just about the hobbits and the dwarves that's what I would have done if I were making this o o where were you when Amazon was holding their pitch meetings the new manorian are dull I hadn't heard about the editing thing but it makes sense because that was and I keep wondering like that I miss something uh the humans and the souths are boring they all seem to kind of have the same Dow personality and I don't know why but I like to look at it giant spiders are cool I genuinely like the dwarves and the hobbits and I like Sauron I think sauron's being good but yes you're right it's a good season for Sauron I don't know it feels like they look at the story and they you said kind of corporate made they don't feel like they have this story in their bones and they need to tell it it feels like they're how do we get a big hit so let's kind of string together a series of entertaining events and we'll hope to get to a climax that resonates in a way that is beyond our ability to make it resonate uh can't wait see meor and numor says Victor yeah oh my God if you know what if that happened I would forgive everything House of the dragon and the rings of power get meor and numor love it it's fine um I also saw uh oh yeah yeah tell The Lord of the Rings musical impressions us about just for a second the Lord of the Rings a musical tale if you guys don't know there is a full lord of rings musical completely full full costumes all singing all dancing all Gandalf and the hobbits and Saron and everybody it played the Chicago Shakespeare Theater it's going on tour around the it's going to like Auckland and and New Zealand actually I guess is cool um you know New Zealand The Unofficial home of Middle Earth so I guess that's why it's going there has to has to um I saw before it ended I liked it it was fun it tried to fit the entirety of The Lord of the Rings into one three three hour two act play which did not work because they had to cut a lot like I'll just go ahead and spoil it Rohan is not in this at all AO in this at all they c a i know you'd figure like come on you don't want to um I am no man then stabs her I don't know I could lot song with that but I mean I get it they didn't have time you can't do the entire thing in three hours it's not it's not gonna happen um I liked it it was curious It's for fans if I have a chance it was just the novelty was cool like oh saran's dancing and singing okay fun I never expected that to happen um and it's it's very straightforward like it's not like it's it's the Lord of the Ring story but for this production of this place it's going to be Set uh during the bower War like no it's the Lord of the Rings they're all in Lord appropriate costumes like there's a great set for billbo 11th birthday uh they do the sheab and they do the ball Rog and they do all the things you're expecting them to hit except anything to do with Rohan or Helms Deep cut all that they cut Helms Deep they cut billo's birthday and they cut Helm Ran's gone they there is no nothing involving any of the Rohan stuff what whatever they just they lost it they had they don't what how are you going to do it um so it's fair that was I wondered that when you I read your review I was like how are they gonna do Rohan how are they gonna do Helms Deep so I guess that answers that I don't think it's destined to become a giant Smash Hit because it is kind of so it once targeted at fans and also Cuts things that fans want to see but I thought it was fun and I'm glad I watched it and if you have a chance and you're a big Lord of the Rings fan folks my screen they were like in Hobbit cloaks and like with elers so people having fun uh so if you a chance why not go see it there is a worst ways to three hours Victor says token writing an angry blog post right now Victor on fire in the chat love it Leo asked I've been to the Burlington bar and met Sean tanktop Leo I have not been to the Burlington bar although I know what they do there I even think I know who Sean tanktop is they had those great um like live watch videos about the game of episodes back in the day I think they still do House of the Dragon but I don't know it's going to be I'm nervous what if that I show up to one of those House of the Dragon episodes that they live react to and it's people don't like it um I I might be uncomfortable could get real ugly real fast we oh man Nicole in the chat Sauron is turning from goo to man faster than grrm is finishing the Winds of Winter harsh but also true Sauron turned from goo to man real fast I liked goo Sauron I Sauron i i i that whole first part was my favorite part of of the Rings of Power by the way that whole first sequence at the beginning of second episode where Sauron we kind of like have sauron's yearslong journey of becoming of H of being blonde and then becoming a pile ofu then becoming a man again I was like you know what I want to get to know Goose Sauron more I enjoyed that I enjoyed his per form the only thing I didn't love about that is that it it made the time feel a little funky like you said years long journey and I it's not really clear how long it is but like it really made it feel like he ended up floating around and met gadriel like like a few months after he got betrayed or like like it didn't feel like Sauron had been a drift for years or anything don't think about it don't think about it that is the key to the unfortunate thing is and I don't want that to be the key to enjoying a show you fail oh sure on some level if I have to not think of the particulars in order to enjoy a show yes I agree I can still enjoy it but if I have to not think about it I'm not enjoying it on as deep a level as I want and I want to enjoy house with the dragon in particular on a deep level and I want to think about it and for new layers to reveal themselves to me um the rings of power I like it but I've given up on enjoying it on that level House of the Dragon I'm having a harder time letting go of but we'll see what happens in season 3 yeah and to bring this full circle right back around to George R Martin's now deleted blog post that's basically one of the things he said in it was they could still make everything work like with Helena with all those things but it will in his opinion probably be less interesting not being a sequential series of events that logically leads to one another and ties all together that you can think about and it doesn't fall apart after a minute of scrutiny uh that's me saying that last bit but so I agree with what you just said I think if you have to tell yourself just don't think too hard about it a show unless it's like a comedy or show you're not supposed to think too hard about it's failed on some level um that's shame um really fast Dan anything What are we reading & watching? else you're reading or watch you want talk about really quickly hint yes always really quickly uh I started Terminator zero uh that's pretty cool it seems pretty interesting the animation's exciting um it is very action-packed curious to see where it goes um I'm also reading the gods below by Andrea Stewart which came out yesterday um it's the first book of a new series from her Epic Fantasy got some Elden ring Vibes a little bit of body horror and some creatures and altered people with horns and wings and stuff very very cool book I'm enjoying it a lot uh what about you Dan watching or reading anything not much um the rings of power trying to get in industry but I can't find the time I'm indulging my um guilty pleasure for cartoons made for adults like with a solar opposit the sort of Rick and Morty s comedy show that I think is pretty funny I like that um tiit man show is funny I never know if I should feel guilty about enjoying those kind of shows or not so I'll just put it out there and just let the audience decide am I disgusting um finally let's get equivalent to goon goon I'm gonna write a fan fact about Goose Ron uh let's go to what we The WiC News Lightning Round! have at the end of every episode of winners of take the black Wick live which is the uh Wick news lightning round where we go over a bunch of stories we couldn't get to in the main body of the show and give our 20 second takes on them no more no less if we go over we get punished um Daniel shame no order Etc and so forth complete chaos like usual let's get into it okay Daniel Netflix has cancelled the Sandman spin-off dead boy detectives your reaction glad I didn't take the time to care about that show um sorry sorry to the dead boy detectives fans um I'm not surprised by this just because it didn't make a huge Splash it was a spin-off of the Sandman Neil gaman is also a bit of a PR problem right now because he's being accused of sexual abuse by a lot of people so not surprised they asked a mid performing show um this is fun let's talk about a fun thing I guess for everyone except this person who's uh they got refused so girl uh got refused a passport passport right passport because she is named kisi and the UK government wasn't sure if that name was copywritten yeah she did get a passport because apparently um whether it's copywritten or not you're still allowed to name your kid whatever you want like if you're going to name your kid McDonald's go ahead uh they can't stop you but it's just a fun little hold over from that time everyone was naming their children Arya and kisi and daer that comes back comes back to haunt you in some weird unexpected ways yes I came in under all right um Daniel this is a show that you liked House of the Dragon Star Abu bakar Saleem who played Allen of Hull was also in the HBO Max show Raised by Wolves and he wants to revive it how we goingon to do that yeah so he basically said you know let me make a video game out of it I'll do it cuz he's also a video game producer he just released his first game with his Studio but I think the gist is he would be down for any sort of Revival he said tabletop RPG comic more series I think he just generally would like to see the show and so with all of us but yeah he wants to make a video game um oh God all right we're g to get into the political rushes here just a for 20 seconds for 20 seconds uh Starfleet Academy just started filming Elon Musk the guy who ruined Twitter uh tweeted uh on the platform that is not Twitter and said let's make Starfleet Academy real and then longtime Star Trek Star Robert picardo uh tweeted back first step support a leader that embodies Starfleet values like diversity inclusion and ethical Behavior there's a lot to say about that um just the idea that there's actually a lot of tech billionaires who really love Star Trek it's very common and there's also a lot of tech billionaires who build companies that disenfranchise people and do things that are really out of step with what Star Trek is all about and that's just kind of funny and to see a Star Trek person clap back is just amusing that's it I'm not going to spend too much time I mean we can talk about that for ages but let's just move on um Daniel do you know that pirate sites like The Pirate Bay are claiming to have house of the Dragon season 2 episode 9 but really if you download it it's malware um yeah I had heard this uh there is no episode nine don't download it the internet is dark and full of Terrors and they will [ __ ] up your computer uh yeah that that's all there is to say uh Kudos I guess to whatever industrious pirate wanted to go around wrecking a bunch of House of the Dragon fans computers you are evil um all right um which of these do you want Dan skip you want this one okay so the first pictures from Jurassic world rebirth have dropped uh that's starring Scarlett Johansson Jonathan Bailey of Bridgerton Fame and Mahala Ali will he be watching it probably not I meant to put the picture up here but I guess I forgot uh yeah they're making a new Jurassic world movie with all those people uh big famous Jurassic world talk about like a a a really corporate franchise I'm not saying it's bad but like they want to put those out so they can get butts and seats and capitalize on those beautiful dinos um I haven't I'm gonna ask both of these last two of you do you mind I don't mind at all I would love to talk about both of them so exactly I I I I didn't organize this in a way that made things we could both talk about I know that you enjoy this stuff Daniel Dan tract Daniel uh director Dan tractenberg next Predator movie Badlands begins filming as plot details surface you like the Predators I love the Predators and Dan Traen BG's last movie prey was fantastic best Predator movie in years um so this is a rumored thing it is not confirmed but it is rumored that his next Predator movie Badlands which is set in the future Stars El Fanning has apparently begun filming uh in New Zealand Lanning may be playing a dual role twin sisters we're gonna wait till we get more concrete info but it's still exciting um before you ask me this next one okay um Leo Leo says HBO has already responded man so happening so we we are going to pause for just a second or if you want to do the last lightning round I feel like we should maybe find that out sure I mean I'll just ask you and then I'll uh pull it up on my compan sounds good sound sounds good thank you Leo for dropping that the the news is happening so fast we're still in the damn show when news is happening okay but really fast uh Daniel uh check out the cover of Brandon sanderson's next book in his Stormlight Archive series wind and Truth yeah this is exciting so uh this is the fifth Stormlight Archive book from Brandon Sanderson it comes out in December number um that's the way of kings that series and this is the end of the first Arc of it it is a 10 book series split into two five book arcs with a time Jump he's taking a Hiatus after this to work on other books so this one is a big deal and it's also the last cover artwork that legendary sci-fi and fantasy artist Michael wheen is doing for a book period so a big deal on multiple FS okay I am not finding an HBO BREAKING NEWS! HBO responds to GRRM no have a link to this welome speak to variety yeah we are HBO House of the Dragon I mean I see the variety I got it I got it I got it okay uh so what a way to end our show yeah so Martin said this and then an HBO this is I'm going to quote this paragraph straight a variety you have a link HBO put link yes I will put a link I'll put it in oh wait no I found I found I found it I found I found it well too bad we getting it anyway everyone in chat if you are curious there you go uh it's down in there so this is the quote from variety an HBO spokesperson responded to Martin's complaints Wednesday with the following statement obtained by variety there are few greater fans of George RR Martin and his book fire and blood than the creative team on House of the Dragon both in production and at HBO commonly when adapting a book for the screen with its own format and limitations the showrunner ultimately is required to make difficult choices about the characters and stories the audience will follow we believe that Ryan Condell and his team have done an extraordinary job and the millions of fans the series has amassed over the first two seasons will continue to enjoy it so there you go there's HBO's official word on the George R Martin blog post um any closing thoughts that you want to share about this because we're here at the end of our show Dan oh you've made a mess Georg Martin I understand why you did I get it but uh oh you made a mess when HBO is issuing official responses to basically say we see you showrunner you did a good um and you know back them up that is a sign that the uh the hornet nest has been kicked so to speak so I it'll be interesting days to see what happens from here uh not expecting anything tragic or crazy or anything just I don't know what Martin's gonna post next essentially God neither do I um he's made life more interesting for all of us and that's our show everybody watching um sub please please subscribe to us we are here every Wednesday at 2 p.m. Central Standard Time on the Winter's coming Facebook post and the Winter's coming uh YouTube page to talk all things sci-fi fantasy movies TV books so forth and Etc uh come check out our website winners com.net uh I'm going to say it again subscribe to us we're also aable this new at podcast form uh wherever podcasts are available be iTunes YouTube music or elsewhere Victor says Wednesday is coming and gone well Wednesday still a several hours left in it but take the black stream for this Wednesday is over loved it thanks you guys please subscribe to us tell every single person you know to subscribe to us and we will return the favor by providing you with excellent analysis and mouth talking goodbye take care all [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music]