Molly Jong-Fast and Mark Leibovich on The Democratic Convention

[Music] hey everybody we got a great one today you know for a change well actually not really because we have Molly Jong fast and Mark liovic who are always great together I caught up with them the day after the Democratic Convention they were both traveling but Peter managed to capture them both for this conversation you may remember I had spoken with them not long ago after the Republican National Convention where the Republicans were cocky as hell coming right after the assassination attempt and of course with Biden still in the race and we were depressed as hell because Biden was still in the race but of course the Trump team was kind of fooled uh by not anticipating what Mark calls an 80% chance of rign that Biden would most likely drop out and everything would instantly change the Trump team had everything in the Biden Bass and got caught flat-footed because if you watch the Democratic Convention in Chicago this past week quite a contrast to the Republican convention in Milwaukee where former president Trump confidently improvised a 90 some minute monologue that passed as an acceptance speech we had our former and current president speak Clinton Obama Biden uh former President Carter couldn't make it but he had a good excuse and Hillary gave a brilliant speech about all the cracks in the glass ceiling that vice president kamla Harris will smash on November 5th if we all do our jobs as vice president Harris implored us fellow Americans this election is not only the most important of Our Lives it is one of the most important in the life of our nation yike oh boy not one of those again you know the last one was pretty damn important too I feel like if we can just beat Trump one more time we just might be through with him and our democracy Will Survive well let's get right to Molly and Mark and a great one as [Music] usual you were both in Chicago for the whole thing right yes but I think we both had very experiences there you were doing a lot of the more writerly stuff and I was actually doing a lot of of podcasting and video and so even and I mostly was doing interviews so and I think you were doing like just a sort of different thing so I think it's probably pretty interesting the differences too if that makes any sense well Mark you're you're a journalist and Molly you're the host of your podcast and a writer also for Vanity Fair and Mark you're for the Atlantic and it's not even the Atlantic Monthly anymore it's the Atlantic because it's it's constantly changing NOP no it happens all the time and you you had an article in there on Tuesday which I missed but uh so what did you write about yeah you got to read the article out no I basically I it was an article this is the problem with writing during conventions I mean it was a story about the mood of the Convention as of say Tuesday morning and it's really no longer operate because you off Monday right well yeah there was I mean Monday was kind of a messy day and in some ways in that yes there's a lot of momentum in the Democratic party and that was displayed in many ways but I mean the Biden situation remains kind of awkward a little Messi there was a lot of speculation about you know oh how is her how's his relationship with the Pelosi with the Obamas even with Kamala and that kind of C thing and then you know Biden gives a speech it starts and ends very late and then he kind of Skips town and what you write about is is by the time you get it up a day old yeah I mean it was actually fresh for a few hours yeah I was me I wrote a similar thing and I had a similar experience I wrote the pre mood and by Tuesday no one cares because right it's over yeah and and yeah and then the speaker I mean OB the Obamas on Tuesday night kind of you know res didn't reset the those were good speeches the Obamas those were amazing the thing with the Obamas that I think is interesting is they're so singularly I mean they're different they give different kinds of speeches but they're so good it's almost like they're such they're so gifted that it almost makes everyone else seem bad well uh the Democratic Convention made everyone in Milwaukee seem bad I mean how was your contrast your experiences in uh Milwaukee now to be fair that's a republican convention and you guys I suspect I don't know officially but I suspect you're progressives well I don't think Mark is registered anything right yeah you know Al I I um I have common cause with many conservatives I mean yeah I mean I I'm progressiv on some issues I'm I'm pretty independent actually I don't go there because they scream at me but what I think is interesting about that Republican convention and I didn't go but I did go to many cacs so I feel like I've done it they really did do a whole ition against Joe Biden and then Joe Biden immediately dropped out and but they were so cocky yeah so Co that was your experience wasn't it Mark yeah and with good reason I mean the polls were were great and the Democrats worked truly in in it was a really messy time because Biden hadn't gotten out yet and Not only was Biden a weak candidate he hadn't gotten out yet and there was a camp saying you know he's earned this and blah blah blah and you know we all we're all there I I was basically saying after the debate that it's he shouldn't be there yeah and I took a lot of heat for that yeah you were right a lot it's interesting because they probably also anticipate it's possible that he'll get out and if he does uh it won't change that much they were caught so flat-footed and it speaks to so how ill-prepared they were and you know I think really is a tremendous error on the part of his campaign or you know just their complete lack of it's not even lack of imagination it's like hey there's a 80% chance of rain let's um right bring an umbrella right oh no what could Poss go wrong let's just proceed like there won't be an 80% chance of but they still are they still haven't figured out how to do it they they keep wanting to Define her so he's going to Define her as not being black I mean you know he can't he can't get a message that sticks yeah yeah what but is that is that's him that's not his his campaign right I mean I mean it's all of it I think they're just not prepared is sort of they just can't get their footing is what it seems like to me well let's talk about uh kamla because how did you view her her uh Speech I thought it was a pretty masterful speech you know I actually I've always thought she was good and I just at some point I decided that the world was just so sexist and so racist that she was never going to get a shot but I have always really thought she was good and like I've interviewed her I interviewed her in 2022 and 2023 and I've always thought she's really smart you know she's one of those people whose whole life has been about running for office so she's almost always made these you know these kind of decisions where she's sort of been very careful and I just she's sort of this new generation a politician I've always felt that she has been very much underestimated I mean the fact that she's done these kind NE Gonzo fundraising numbers $500 million she's got this like Army of volunteers she has this virality on Tik Tok which is you know things that are sort of inexplicable or not inexplicable because I think I actually right but not anticipated by the hive mind makes me feel that she was always like the perfect person for this and she was deeply underestimated and I've always felt like she was much much much more talented than anyone gave her credit for so so for me I'm pretty thrilled for her and I you know and as a woman I feel very like when you see Hillary and you really see that like you had to have Hillary before you could have her she did actually change the calculus of what of what we look for when we look at politics and Hillary gave a hell of a speech I thought she was great yeah I mean I guess I would say on KLA I I I would plead guilty of being someone who underestimated her um and I served with her and uh I didn't see this yeah I mean I I was going by her her presidential campaign in 2020 which wasn't great and then her you know her vice presidency which is you know it's a pretty thankless job and and I think it was made pretty thankless for a lot of reasons I mean given the Border things like that she wasn't given the Border she was given Central America the three countries in Central America but one of the things that's interesting about her um two things that I think about a lot is when she was given Central America the president of Mexico ubar Oar I always get it wrong I always mispronounce it he really didn't like Biden and and really did adore her and so in certain ways there were like these little stories that if unless you were like really paying attention to her you might not have gotten but you know like when I interviewed her I talked to her staff about that I mean she got she did a couple of really good things she did two Munich security conferences where she was like a Superstar unfortunately the third one she she was like don't worry about Trump and the Europeans got really mad at her but you know because the Europeans are very serious and worried worried about Trump because he'll withdraw from NATO NATO yeah yeah deal is a big deal no I know but she did not they got they sort of took it out on her a little bit but I I have seen her do some pretty masterful stuff as vice president but again vice president is totally you know whatever job yeah I mean but having said that I mean you know there's nothing like the present and I think she just had such a glorious what five weeks or so um and I think that basically continued through the convention I mean you know the question is is this the end of the beginning or is this just going to keep propelling her forward through November having said that I was not as Blown Away by the speeches some people apparently were I mean there were people who immediately said home run I I thought in moment it seemed more like a double well compare it to Trump's speech right well Ruth and um you know Aaron judge and Barry I mean no it was that's the thing I mean if you were GNA grade it on that curve I mean how odd was that how odd was an hour and a half uh he's always like that what's odd is that we keep thinking he's not going to always be like that like but I but he's always like the thing was he a moment there where he could have not been a complete but he always is but the thing I would say about her which I thought was interesting about that speech that was a speech about her running against him right that was a speech and it didn't it wasn't like a normal speech it wasn't like I'm so great it was literally like this is what we're going to do that's not him and I actually thought that was pretty smart I mean again well she also had to introduce herself I mean people don't know her so she she started with her you know you know who her parents were and uh what it was like growing up and I mean that we got we got a lot of biography there at the beginning also a short speech too yeah she managed to keep it less than an hour and a half well she actually stuck to the uh you know she could read it off a prompter if she needed to but she really had digested that speech yeah yeah no I agree I mean also the shorter those speeches are the better everyone thinks they are you know like nobody is good for an hour and a half but some people are good for 45 minutes or something like how how how long were the Obamas H well they weren't that long they're just but they you can't they're not it's notri is not normal yeah they're so good but there were a lot of people who spoke and you tell me if you think this is wrong but where we did not need to hear them like Cathy hokel who is that for that jumped out at me when I heard that I went why she running 20 points behind the partisan lean I mean 15 points behind the she dragged down the whole ticket she's the reason the Democrats lost the house and we're gonna highlight her screaming at us I had some of the very very same thoughts and but they do have to fill up the night I guess I guess no they don't you're right and they ran late didn't they they BC J Taylor they bounced if you want to choice between James Taylor and Kathy hok who would you rather hear well they bounced Taylor Swift and Beyonce last night in favor of Leon Leon Panetta what was why did they have Leon Panetta can you make that make sense he he added heft I mean there was real seriousness there his speech was good right but he's not Beyonce speak for yourself so what is going on with Trump I mean he's completely unfocused he steps in at right and left dissing our troops he really doesn't like people who've been injured serving the country yes which I think is an odd choice for a president but odd choice although I do think that while his Tweeting or whatever he was doing what's the word Tru thing during kamla Harris's speech last night was in the middle of the speech said where's he was I think it was malfunctioning can we talk uh just about your experiences there what is it like dayto day what are you doing dayto day when you're there before and after the session uh I would say that day-to-day I mean nothing really start I mean there are day sessions but the key is and their delegation breakfast Al you live through this if you're a politician you just got you usually just you go to the delegation breakfast go a bunch of them yeah and you speak at it yeah you speak at it and then you also go to breakfast with donor yeah exactly and by the way I think Al I think I first kind of met you at the Democratic Convention in 2016 when I was writing about you and you were going to a bunch of Delegation record so there's that during the day but things don't really start until the evening which is maybe 5 o'l when people start showing up and there are some early speeches the delegates file in Let Me project 2025 came up and your series on on them on your podcast are just exemplary oh thank you yeah they really are I mean the whole idea was remember this comes from Reagan right Reagan had done this he'd written up a policy proposal published it and it had become you know sort of this thing and I think they really thought that they were going 1981 right and he won and it anyone and and I think they thought they would they were being so smart but actually the problem also is when you go through it it has so many different organizations that are involved in the writing of it and of course Trump's name is mentioned more than 300 times what what are some of the highlights of it in terms of like putting the justice department under the president yeah the larger thing is this idea that basically the executive branch controls most of the federal government so the doj you fire how many civil servants 50,000 or something well you fire a huge quantity of civil servants which is like that is I think probably the most problematic part of it because they just don't have the numbers to but they want to replace everyone with loyalist the other thing is I know why they want to do this but like the Department of Education they want to dissolve the Department of Education which is like largely responsible for like pel grants and also like juicing up education in red states where there are lower state taxes like a lot of this stuff will actually ultimately really hurt people who live live in red states with low state taxes and things like they'll raise prescription drug prices you know anything that the federal government does they would like not to do Homeland Security right but then they have this thing this was actually interesting yesterday so Harris talked in Her speech about this sort of abortion Master General which then got fact checked because you know it's not technically an abortion Master General but it kind of is which is someone so they're going to change the Department of Health and Human Services to like the department of life and something sort of very orwellian life and living and then they're going to have someone who's sort of has a FAL abortion perview who will you know I don't know if they're going to exactly monitor women's periods but it certainly it sounds very you know it does not sound I think they are all of this is um is about this supposition that life begins a fertilized egg so that is life begins a conception because it with IVF there are these eggs that are fertilized and that's right they're all technically live according to them wait can I ask you a question question Marley is there actually a term someone like an abortion Master General like is that actually a thing no I mean that she had said there was going to be like a an abortion something to the extent of but I made that up you made it up but she didn't she said something to that effect okay but it is an I think we can all agree that it would hypothetically be an interesting job title yes I mean you know orwellian but disturbing but yes yes I'm Kidd and also possible in this weird I mean they're so obsessed with abortion and it's such a loser for them I mean and you saw even today Trump truthed about how he's Trump yes yeah talk about that that's so interesting he's a hero of reproductive right what did he say yeah I mean he's gonna protect women's Reproductive Rights how is he not facing unbelievable backlash among the pro lifers on the right which is as hardcore a constituency you know on the right as there has been over the last however many years right I mean I I mean yes Pence has spoken out about it and some others have but how is this not just like a a tan alarm fire for Republicans I maybe it is I don't know yeah I mean I think ultimately that will backlash against him and also the other thing is nobody believes that well does anyone believe anything he says including him which would think to be a pro you'd think would be a problem for someone running for president it only makes him stronger oh my God uh he uh we speaking of which they're going to be the when's the first debate um September weeks September 10th I think so that's the next stop in this uh this campaign really this is the fundamental posttruth problem of Donald Trump is that I mean even his supporters don't believe him that's a problem one would think but it isn't but it isn't for him what were you would you say and and you guys have different perspectives because Al was you watched all this and Molly you watched some of it you were in the hall for some of it um top three speeches if you had to name them you know who was really good and this is was a shorter speech as it should have been Steve Kerr oh terrific wasn't that a great speech yeah I love Steve Kerr's speech and I thought walls' speech was great walls is really good I thought walls' speech was the best yeah walls Obama's uh Hillary Hillary when we talked earlier Mark you mentioned the moment where they started yelling lock him up oh yeah yeah this was one of my top three favorite moments of the whole convention so Hillary when she was speaking she mentioned Trump's um legal issues criminal issues and a lock him up chant went up from the crowd and you could see her initial instinct is to be responsible which is that no we don't do this this is not our thing it was very wrong eight years ago and it's very wrong now and after about two or three seconds you could just see this thing come over her face where she just decided to go with it and she nodded and she smiled and it was like yeah you know what okay and there was it felt like a Rubicon of some kind was passed both not for not just for Hillary but for the whole party and I think you know then you had the next night for the Obamas you know especially Michelle with the we go when they go low we go high thing which he basically disavowed and and with both speech I mean those are tough and but also joyful and resonant you know historic speeches that I thought you know just really nailed it what were your okay so we think walls Obama's uh Al you said Hillary what would you say Molly would your third be I mean I like I I love wall I mean you know I've known I've interviewed walls a bunch of times yeah well Al knows him right yeah I'm from Minnesota and uh yeah when he first ran in 2006 I was uh a big supporter of his and campaign with him uh all over southern Minnesota and he was and I kept telling Rah Emanuel who was head of the DC this guy is great and he said he can't win in the first district and it's a rural District no one had ever won since like sometime in the 19th century No Dem didn't Ram say this guy's got no money well he had no money and so I was asking Rah to give him [Music] money said no he can't win he can't win and then finally at a certain point I got a call from one of rah's people who said we're going to put $50,000 in the mon and I said it's Mano and and he said well okay we're going to put 50,000 in the man I when thanks so you can call Mono put as much money as you can put in it and he uh they he started winning and he won wow and that was that was 2006 when the Congress went when the house went for uh for Democrats so he was part of that wave so what else did you want to talk about Mark no I look it was an incredibly Rich week I mean we're all I mean Rich there was so much material I think we're all digesting it it was a bit of a blur if you were there I'm sure Molly would attest and as you would attest been do a million of these things but I just thought that wow I mean it was a real I think a great kind of display of the talent in the party I think it was kind of near perfect convention I guess I would say near because I thought the timing was was kind of an unforced error just all the the spe speech is going late and so forth um and I think the Biden situation was kind of awkward but that was kind of put to bed early in the week but I I also think ultimately people will remember this convention by what happens in November I mean the end this story is not yet the ending of this story will be the whole story and I think that will sort of retroactively define whether this was the ultimate Fool's goals or well there's also just events worldwide and what's going to happen and you know with Gaza and Iran and yeah one of the things that that I think the Democrats did in this convention was talk about Ukraine and I think that is I I there are certain issues that I think that that we are underwater on which is the border and couple other things but uh I think on Ukraine I I think we win on that I think the American people support that war they do po I mean the polls go sure I mean although it's it's kind of number it's not like a top five issue by any stretch I mean certainly immigration is no and by the way I thought in con Harris's speech on Thursday I mean the Border stuff they handled pretty mely I mean they focused on the bill and Trump's refusal to sign it and you always bring the the bipartisanship of it and like you know we want to do this put it back I mean it was I mean they have no answer for that and by the way I have been I interviewed Murphy again to talk to him about that and that's such an interesting thing because you know Murph Chris Murphy of Connecticut Connecticut who who was really the lead Democrat on the bill yeaha and Langford and he said and you know he spent Thanksgiving and Christmas negotiating that bill and he said you know we had Mitch's people in there we knew that it wouldn't get done without Mitch but the problem was Mitch couldn't deliver the Senators once Trump said that he told me that he texted Cinema that night and was like they're going to the bill is going to be dead by morning and it was but but that was a Nifty way to talk about it yeah I mean he did it they really did it because they thought it would work they didn't do it as a stunt hey uh guys I'm I'm just seeing on Twitter I hate to be one of these people but RFK is in fact endorsing Trump and what is he getting in exchange we don't know what do we think of this well I think this is a huge blow to one of the campaigns and I can't figure out which one I think this is potentially hurtful to the Democrats I don't know I mean I I just don't I don't know what kind of people out there exist who were voting for RK and say okay I led him so much I'm gonna follow his lead support a guy that I never liked at all before did that really work that way I think there weren't a ton of Democrats who are voting for him at this point wasn't it like young people who couldn't bear the idea of voting for an 82-year-old and now they don't want to vote for woman I guess I I mean I don't know it doesn't make any sense I I agree with you I think the mostly RFK had been sort of hemorrhaging in the polls because people had figured out that he's not his dad but I do think yeah I mean I think because originally people were like RFK and remember that ad he ran where it was like meant to evoke the 60s so I don't think he picks up a lot of Democrats but you know in a in election that's very it may be enough so uh basically the next big event is the debate yeah on September 10th but we don't know that yeah because uh the way this season has gone this political season has gone there's a huge event every I mean if if there's a development in the war if Iran enters the war if yeah I mean and also it does seem like Trump is really freaking out that's that's what we'll end on what is going on with this guy it seems like Trump but much worse like he sort knows he's in trouble but I don't know Mark thoughts yeah I don't know I mean it's just part of a a spiral that's kind of gone for eight years well he's he's 78 maybe we're experiencing some of the same stuff we experienced with with Biden yes although very different right very very very different let's let's disting let's let's point that out yeah this is just weird I mean I don't know I I just have to say I'm just burned out on trying to like figure out you know whatever is in his psyche right now yeah he's he's acting strange and weird and racist and anti-semitic and also emotionally exhausted by him I mean that's part of it uh but so so the American people are and so that exactly that is uh actually very helpful it is you have to think there's some exhaustion factor I mean right well that's the lawn signs you know like I've been asking people who have been driving through because the thing is like we just have so little data that we're basing this all on right polls maybe right so part of me I've been asking like everyone you know are you seeing the same number of lawn signs are you you know I mean again we don't know but it's just hard for me to imagine that he can muster that same turnout even if it's just like from the number of people who' have like gotten Co well didn't we uh basically see the focus completely off him this week which had to drive crazy yeah and uh really the week before and I mean this is the first time since 16 or since 15 where the focus hasn't been on this guy for every day yeah so I think that says uh something about what what's really going on in terms of his support so let's hope I'm right on that yeah oh and by the way he could still win oh he could still win definitely he he has a really good chance of winning oh yeah that was the main note I want to end on yeah he could still win which is that uh you know looking at that convention and all the optimism and all that stuff and and a what a threo lead in the National pole which is we do we lose if we have a three point if it's not I don't know if it's enough is it enough the thing is actually that whole electoral thing about where you need a four-point win in order to win the doesn't necessarily track anymore for some reason um partly because in a lot of these same polls I mean she's actually up by a couple points in Michigan Wisconsin I mean tied in Pennsylvania tied in Georgia yeah but if you're tied in Pennsylvania and you don't win it you lose no you have to win it the idea is yeah but well but if you win Georgia and then and let's face it she's enjoyed a very big upswing in the last few weeks so and also North Carolina's think North Carolina might even be more flippable than Georgia than Georgia here I mean one thing that I have kept I have thought about and this kind of I it came into my mind last time as I was trying to make sense of the convention it was a really depressing thought would have been what if this week we just experienced were the Joe Biden convention I mean you know which is what it looked like and look was headed towards right um and you know know uh as of four or five weeks ago it still kind of looked like this was going to be the Joe Biden convention and when you mentioned that possibility to people as I I was when I was leaving the arena last night this look of like oh yeah I wouldn't say horror but but can you imagine like everyone knew how that would have looked compared to what the look and feel the Democratic party is in the wake of this convention and that's how the Republicans left their convention thinking that that was going to happen and uh I don't know know quite why they were so sure of that no I mean again like it was an 80% chance of rain right but you know what the two conventions did have in common is that we had a really smart tight and original wrapup of it as the three of us did on the AL franking podcast onid a very good point well thank you guys always a [Music] pleasure well I I hope you enjoyed uh listening that beautiful music music is by Leo Ki The Great Leo Ki I want to thank Peter Ogburn for producing this podcast we'll talk again next week [Music] a [Music]