Bonus! - Pt. 2 - The Damned United (RT)

I soak those boys down with my own hands you just went to leads with no thought for the club no thought for the players just on some mad personal Vendetta against me well are you surprised what else was I going to do after what you did what did I do come on Don you know exactly January 27th 1968 see I even remember the date you came to Derby County third round of the FA Cup and you refus to shake my hand never no my matter of principal I always shake the other manager's hand no you shook Peter Taylor's hand and me trainer Jimmy Gordon I probably didn't see it no you saw me Don but considered me beneath you look down on me and dismiss me just like you did every other club and every other manager in the country never would I knowingly refuse to shake your colleague's hand no but the truth is you were down in the second division at the time H you I probably didn't know who you were welcome to part two of our the Damned United episode uh but before we go into real talk we are going to do a little bit of PPR our Patron pitch this is where we let our patrons know what they can expect on their exclusive Patron Channel and also let non patrons know what they're missing out on also Alex this is a this is one of those weird Twilight moments in podcast recording because we're recording way in advance which means that as we record we are about a week away from the live stream for the Cure starting but this episode when this episode drops the live stream for the Cure will be about a week past yeah so what this means is that uh as you are listening to this hopefully you are remembering how well our segment went and how much money we raised for cancer research we're going to join you with that happy reminiscent now let's just celebrate another live stream for the Cure that went well a success yeah another success hopefully uh we we hit all the all the goals and we're just going to be proud of it for the next year until the next uh live stream for the Cure so thank you for tuning into our segment thank you for donating thank you for supporting the CA and uh and the contrarian little part in it and if you are somebody that just discovered the show because we did that segment the live stream for the Cure uh hey good to have you oh yeah kind of a an odd episode to join us though definitely not the strangest we've had but you know British sports movie is not usually what we tackle on the show even though we're clearly more than happy to do so especially when a patron is the one demanding it speaking of set Patron Alex kind of mentioned it on the on the first half in trainers corner but uh this is not the only demand from Ben Murray this this month so he made us watch the Damned United for the main feed and for the exclusive Patron feed this is going to be our first ever TV review on on the patron channel uh we're going to watch breaking ground but we have to do it for our patrons yes yeah it's not it's not a random request either I mean sex in the city has come up on the show time and again because you're a big fan of the show not so much of the movies putting it lightly yes and I enjoy teasing you about it and I kind of admire the phenomenon of Sex in the City from afar but uh I'm about to get my hands dirty with it along with you because Ben wants us to watch the first two episodes of and just like that the The Sex in the City relaunch is that even a no it's not a relaunch right it's just like a continuation it's just like a a new show what you call that you could use the term relaunch with that I guess it is relaunching the franchise in a way yeah um it'll be very interesting to see how we experienced this Alex because I've seen the two movies and that's it so I'm going in with a lot less mythology in my mind and uh I'm I kind of get the feeling that you'll be a lot more nitpicky about this than I will I don't know about that I just already feel bad for Ben I'm going to have a really hard time caring uh I'll care Ben don't worry that's not true I'll care because I want to care to deliver the goods to Ben but it's like it's just one of those things of it already is broken to me the movies happened it's just like let it be broken it this is not the grand gesture this is the vague gesture which is truly worse than no gesture at all it will be a good time uh just like the rest of our our just like the rest of our our Patron offerings we put up uh clips that didn't make it into the into the episodes our Cutting Room floor segments we also put up our pre-recording notes where you get to see a little bit of uh the behind the curtain like what are how our mind works while we're watching the movies and taking notes we also have quick video reviews this month Paton Curtis he he continues his quest to make us watch more uh Indian movies so this time they're not part of the same franchise like he did last time uh so Alex he gave me the movie Minal murali which I it's on Netflix and I just looked it up and the the the screenshot like the the thumbnail it looks like a superhero so I guess he's giving me an Indian superhero movie that is uh 2 hours and 36 minutes yeah I've gotten two .0 which is build as a uh South Asian film it's on Amazon Prime Dr vas Garin and his Android assistant Nila are called in for help after mobile start mysteriously flying out of hands of users so that sounds amazing I mean he's he's one for one like that's true I wasn't a big fan of Singham but Singham Returns [ __ ] ruled so we'll see uh we'll see what we got going here I'm looking forward to it all right well hopefully you dear patrons are also looking forward to that even if you don't want to watch the movies themselves you get to watch our reactions to them uh you know in condensed form and then of course we have contrarians after [Music] hours now over the last couple episodes uh as part of the friend traga the after hours segments were tying in to whatever actor we were talking about uh so we did uh Charlie's Angels for Matt LeBlanc and we did 3,000 Mi to graand for courney Cox here this is not a friend traga episode so we're back to plugging things that we've read that we've watched that we listen to so Alex what are you plugging on the after hours this time I'm not plugging but definitely discussing we got some catching up to do here mhm so the mystery of Marilyn Monroe the unheard tapes which is a new documentary on Netflix that was I have some conflicted thoughts on not conflicted it's just it's kind of an okay movie um the gentleman guy Richie movie from a few years back have you seen that with the yeah uh I wanted to I haven't seen it yet that's uh Matthew M that's in it right it's the mahay Colin Ferrell um Charlie honam and [ __ ] Hugh Grant man Hugh Grant's excellent in it so we got those and then I will briefly bury the Texas Chainsaw masacre that was the Netflix exclusive this year I'm so happy that you watched it yeah I'm so happy I'm so happy that I get to hear your take on it that's that's more like it oh and continuing with the Batman animated films that I've watched I I did get another viewing of the Gotham night in recently I'm just going through my letter box and things that I've watched since the last time we had a full after hours episode so uh it's not going to be a 7 hour after hours episode I can uh I'll bullet point I'll bottom line all my thoughts on these movies so we can get through it quickly sounds good sounds good uh on my end I also have a documentary on on my list it is uh the alpinist is uh another Netflix documentary that is this would conclude my Trilogy of uh documentaries about people that climb mountains finally yes the long awaited conclusion ready to move on to other type of sports maybe I'll start documentaries about soccer players uh but yeah I'll tell you about the alpinist it's only like 90 minutes so I figure why not but then more importantly and also tying into you know this episode to uh to the dam United our friends at film Busters have been talking about the movie boiling point for months now and I always say okay I need to watch it I need to watch it and it stars Stephen Graham who you know plays uh what's his name Brer the the captain of the of leads in this movie and uh I always know him as the guy from as the guy from snatch um it's Tommy Tommy is his name right in yeah snatch from Who Tommy the Germans sorry I love snatch anyway step he's a he's the main guy in this one he's the lead and boiling point he plays a chef and uh we'll talk about it in after hours I I finally the main thing is that I saw this as my excuse to finally watch the movie since you know has the Steven Graham connection and the film Busters connection so H did I like it as much as uh B Adam Paul did well you'll find out on our after hour segment uh so if any of these things that we just brought up sound interesting well you need to go to our Patron page and sign up uh that's patron.com contrarian Prime you'll see our four tiers just pick which one you want to join and become part of the contrarian supplements $1 $3 $5 and $10 we have our varying uh ranges of tiers a $1 subscription will'll get you on the ground floor give you access to all the things Julio mentioned as well as our Rock Cena miniseries our 10year retrospective that we've got going on right now um with the most recent episode that'll be up this month part four on the actual match I think we're like over 10 hours of content pertaining just to the Rock Cena story so $1 will get you 10 hours of content on that all you could possibly need to know on the Rivalry of The Rock and John Cena leading into Wrestlemania 28 as well as their respective movie careers so got a lot of good [ __ ] on there we always get some good feedback on what we do we love our patrons that we have right now we're accepting applications I mentioned that email address as well it is we areth contrarians gmail.com if you don't want to engage with us on Twitter if you just have any general questions as well head on over there we will look at it we'll discuss it we'll uh tender our resignations and then act like we didn't mean to to begin with so just G give us 44 days to impress you there you go so what you want to do about that it's not [Music] working we have to park comp fine it'll cost you 25 grand for 6 weeks work three and a half grand for Jimmy Gordon and an agreement that lead United will pay both our income taxes for the next 3 years that is bloody criminal and you can throw in the MK and all what might be a bit flash for a man out of a job but the truth is I've grown to like it who do you bloody think you are bran clo all right Julio the Damned United it's damned good I uh I'm sad you didn't find that review because it is it's damned good uh for what it is I need to get that clear it's not it's not the greatest sports film ever uh I guess just to lead off with it my letter box review said it's Tom Hooper's best movie and it's not even remotely close well I think that you need to expl you need to elaborate and explain that you haven't seen cats oh yeah I'm sorry that that's uh that's the outlier for me I always forget did you end up seeing it cats yeah I screened it was it the disaster that people said it was no I mean it's it's a disaster in the sense that financially you know it's like everybody agreed that they were going to pile on and they just trashed it for being I thought a very faithful adaptation of the Stage production it's a [ __ ] play about cats that sing I think that was my initial thought when I heard everything is do people know what cats is exactly yeah yeah that you know so many of the reviews were like oh LOL Judy Dan is dressed as a cat and she's singing yeah that's the play that's she's doing what you know everybody's doing what they were supposed to do and they're really good singers and they're really good actors and they're really good dancers so it just goes here's the the problem you know and this is why I think that cats even fans of the show turned on the movie and that is that it's one thing to see it on stage and it's another thing to see it on film even though you're seen the exact same thing when you put it on film somehow it enhances the silliness of it and so I think that a lot of people didn't realize that they were seeing adults dressed as cats singing and dancing until they saw it in the movie you know even though it's exactly the same thing that was on stage God Rest his soul nor McDonald had that uh Weekend Update joke I think it was to commemorate the 1,000th um performance of cats yeah thank you for saving me there of cats in Time Square or whatever and he's like so tonight marks the 10,000th time a man turned to his wife and said what the hell is [Laughter] this uh okay so Alex there's there's the many roads to real talk here uh because we have as as we mentioned we have some messages from Ben to kind of set the stage uh for the conversation we also have the quotes from ronten tomatoes and then of course we have our opinions so in initially I was going to propose we we talk about the movie and then we close with Ben things that way Ben's words didn't really influence our discussion but I'm thinking well but but but now here's what I'm thinking instead we could do it the opposite we can just start with Ben things because I think that through contrarian Corner maybe hopefully this happened to you too like through contrarian corner I kind of solidified how I feel about this movie so I don't think that Ben's words are going to like sway me one way or the other you you know what I mean so I actually think that Ben's uh words might like guide the discussion but I I I know how I feel about this movie and and I mean clearly you do as well you went as far as logging in on to letter box so here's what I'm saying let's do the quotes then let's uh read Ben's messages and then we talk about the movie yes that's the order I was going to line it up in so let's okay let's go for it perfect okay uh here's a few rotten quotes then from the Tomatoes website people that didn't like this movie uh Chris huitt from St Paul Pioneer Press says imagine an in-depth movie about a sein factory in China that assumes we are already familiar with all the details of squin making and you have an idea what it's like to sit through the Damned United um this guy is playing it up way too much that's that's literally something we wor that's a a bit an approach to the movie we worked into our facius review of it yeah it it it's not that complicated no you know it's Sports you you kick the ball and it goes in the net yeah uh next Rick groan from Globe and Mail says like a skill player who just can't score the damn United is all Dazzle and no finish and ultimately damn frustrating there you go you got that another missed opportunity use the Expression though all steak very little Sizzle yep yep or in that case you would say all Sizzle no steak Yeah uh well maybe they just don't do that in England what they have like sausage all sausage no siss all sissle no sausage [ __ ] blood pudding blood pudding there you go all blood no pudding um Matt Kellman from Las Vegas City Life says as foreign for American audiences as a story about one of Billy Martin's stints with the Yankees would be in the UK what do you know what he's talking about yes but okay I'm glad uh the The Germ of the idea of what he's saying is accurate but if your movie is good enough that [ __ ] doesn't matter yeah I mean it there's this this weird idea that you can't relate to something that is even a little bit removed from your own experience come on now which yeah that's I mean I think we I even say this in the episode like baseball is the sport I've grown up with the most that doesn't mean I love Moneyball quite the contrary every time I watch that movie I'm like just because you're familiar with something or not familiar with it shouldn't dictate your ability to enjoy a piece of art about it yep yep I agree it's all in the execution um all right so first off Alex Ben wanted us to know that he owns this movie on Blu-ray but it skips like a son of a [ __ ] oh that's that's uh I I have sunshine on DVD and that's the one that always comes to mind it's fine until the last five minutes and then it just [ __ ] up and skips everywhere and the last five minutes you get everything Man Captain America sacrifices himself San Murphy saves the day and yeah yeah uh he says he thinks he bought it pre-owned yeah that's the risk that's always a gamble brother but I respect that you have a physical copy of it it's just not on a flash drive or and streaming it hey I streamed it you streamed it too yeah because I didn't know what it was but if I you know my rule if I like a movie I I [ __ ] got on here and bought the Blu-ray of Charlie's Angels cuz what we did that sounds like a problem my friend not for me for you um all right next he says uh so for me the reason I'd love to hear you guys go at it is because it feels so distinctly and inherently English uh cl's time at the Reigns was well before I was born but I grew up with family with family singing his Braes his legacy became something any football fan of which I consider myself one couldn't help but know of but because of that when I watched this I already knew what I was getting in for this slightly formulaic storytelling didn't matter to me because Sheen brought cl to life in a way he never existed for me do you have that Alex do you have the experience of like having heard of somebody like a historical figure or something from before your time and then you watch a movie about them and it just it feels extra special because of that oh uh I was going to say oh yeah but up until the cuz we've gone over my very conflicted thoughts on Ali and that was the first one that came to mind right yeah uh not off the okay this is just off the top of my head I would have to think about it and I remember when the uh when Babe Ruth shows up in the sand lot I remember as a kid I was like oh that's Babe Ruth um and that's his brother gay Ruth so not necessarily a movie off the top of my head but I do know like the first few times times I I remember watching old Mike Tyson fights on ESPN classic it felt like it was something special because I had heard my dad and my uncle and like all the adults in my life talk about Mike Tyson and so I can relate to exactly what he was saying with this yeah I obviously I mean if we're keeping it to sports yeah I have nothing like that but I do I mean I grew up I watched this match with the rock recently that's right I've been hearing about it for so long uh no I I did grow up in a in a family that was very uh very much into soccer you know my my dad all my uncles and and you know my brother eventually as he you know as he got older I was kind of like the outlier there but that doesn't mean that I was not aware of the culture so if they ever made a movie about you know the universitario sports club I mean I would probably I would get a kick out of it I probably wouldn't recognize as much of the details as if I was an actual f but I would be like oh yeah that's you know that's my dad's team that's my uncle's team so I can see how that would enhance the movie you know to begin with you've been hearing about this and then it's there that's uh so you've never seen man on wire but you saw the zamus movie right correct that's got to be kind of a similar feeling like I've heard a bunch of people talk about this let's see what's up yeah except the zus movie is not that good yes that's confirmed um all right so Ben continues uh I'll be Keen to know if the if his story works for you guys did some of the twe English dialogue scenarios and dress SS get in the way of the story uh did the time jumps over complicate the story or did they help for me it worked knowing the timeline of events in advance but ultimately were you as one over by Me by the central conceit that an entire career of clus got boiled down to his rivalry with Don Revy how a few week snapshot managed to represent the man at his way of life so well um and he closed with saying anyway just some thoughts I love the film and although it's not my favorite football film that's goal it is in my opinion the best one because just like Jaws isn't really about the shark this isn't really about football uh and then he included a link to a YouTube video where we could see the real Brian CL uh talking to Don Rey in an interview that is basically what inspired the climax of this movie yeah did you you get to watch it Alex yeah that's almost like some Michael hanii [ __ ] of like you know shot for shot makes yeah yeah uh he says uh Club was actually much more wet sympathetic wet SL sympathetic in real life which perhaps may be my biggest criticism of Sheen clove in the film he's an [ __ ] in many ways but so was rivy um so okay so a lot to unpack there Alex but uh I guess we can start with the britishness of it all did uh they get in the way of you enjoying this movie I'm terrified of r Ryan and BK's reaction because when we did our last episode with Ryan he was none too pleased with our I guess xenophobia towards Australian films and their culture uh because you know I've talked about numerous times snatch and Guy Richie movies and the like that I really enjoy I don't know if you'd classify Sid Nancy as part of British Cinema but that's a movie I really like um British Cinema is well represented in my physical media collection so like the first time I saw snatch for example or like train spotting or something there was a novelty of they talk different than us that's funny they have they have their own customs and expressions and honestly it's been like growing up and realizing there's more to the world and different cultures and [ __ ] like that and then also following like sports like boxing and constant which has a extremely heavy following in the UK uh wrestling similarly and just I've become accustomed to how they speak how they dress how they walk how they talk it's just like one of those things I've watched so much [ __ ] over there and soccer included um and also because of the Brilliance of the internet one of the few positives from it I've made some friends from over there and so kind of understanding and through this podcast obviously as well um more of the culture in general to where you watch it and it's not just like H it's it's different than us um now to be clear the Australian films we've watched we've liked a couple and not liked a couple and I uh 100% our issues with the ones we didn't like were more because we've just seen better versions of that movie not just because it's you know a different culture or some [ __ ] like that um in this case no the britishness does not throw me off because it's so easy to follow and it doesn't spoon feed you but if you're paying attention everything in here makes sense and you know where you're going and you know why this is happening you know why this character does this you know why this character does that and what the the Dynamics of them are to the point where the backdrop really to me it could have been anywhere and it would have all been the same yeah I I mean the when you say to British they're not like saying like a specific address or a neighborhood or some [ __ ] like that that you know they're making these inside jokes that only certain people would get because when you do [ __ ] like that it that's not that's not a common occurrence in any nationality but my point is that didn't deter away from I thought that just what was happening was so strong and yeah I enjoy the subject matter I enjoy I enjoy football and I enjoy learning about stories and sports that I didn't know about before um I had heard of Brian cloth but I obviously to this level was not familiar with the story so I think my openness to it may not be the same for all but I guess that's where it comes to you Julio cuz you're even you're not like a sports person um so the idea of this doesn't sound intriguing to you on paper so did the britishness or the sports of it block you from like mentally entering it see that's that's the thing like I don't have a problem with the britishness CU I I imagine I think that British Cinema is probably the the second uh most universal yeah you know it's like I I've watched so many of them that you know I don't even think about it although if I had to think about it I would say okay when I think of British Cinema I think of period pieces and I think of crime dramas right that that seems to be like what I consume the most when it comes to British Cinema uh but but I've seen you know British dramas and British comedies and so on [ __ ] Richard Curtis I guess you know that that is does he qualify as a British filmmaker or is he an Universal filmmaker by now I don't know I think he's a citizen of the earth um but anyway so it's not so much the britishness although I think that this movie is you know very British I I get it you know there is yes it's Universal in the way that you can understand it because it's you know the conflict is very relatable it's very simple you can you can follow it but I think that there's that extra layer that if you are either British or familiar with you know the British history that is covering then you know it's like the the the decaprio meme where you just point at the camera it's like oh it's that team and it's that team and I remember that and I remember that you know see without getting too far into it though that's where I become curious of like my [ __ ] of movies we've watched from like okay that's not the [ __ ] story aha uhuh okay yeah I'm I'm curious about that too but but I obviously like I think that there is there's some short hands in the storytelling this is not a bad thing you know because ultimately I was like I said I was able to follow the story and I was fine but where if you know of these epic rivalries for example between teams or between IND divisions or what have you or uh you know there's some things that the the movie establishes kind of quickly you know in the in the intro when it's you're seeing the opening titles it's telling you well the morale was really low because they had failed to qualify for the World Cup or whatever you know like that kind of stuff I think that probably hits you harder if you if you were there if it's part of your your country's history and So that obviously was not part of my experience but it wasn't a barrier either the barrier if there was one was just that I you know I have an interest in in in football and soccer and uh if it's a if there's a sports movie that is not well done then it's going to be it's going to lose me really quickly and that was not the case here it I was a little confused not even confused but just I guess surprised by something that we discussed in conserv scarter which is just that the how violent uh how acceptably violent it was that I didn't know but but I trusted that the movie was telling me the truth so I'm like all right I guess that's how it is and I just didn't know that that they could get so so nasty on on the field and it was okay so or you know within reason so so that was more more like it that the I was not ready for British soccer players to be so so bad so blood such Naughty Boys yeah uh but than that I mean I it's it's easier I think that we both kind of agree that it's kind of like an easier transition than you know when we watch a movie from uh a country that we're not so used to so that there's that uh now uh next Point time jumps did you how did you like this how how did you like the the the setup of like okay we're not going to tell it linearly instead we're going to go back and forth between the present and the past at first I was like really but then it did the thing of like it got quicker and quicker on each leap and then it kind of is what builds to the Fallout in a kind of almost unexpected way and so yeah I wasn't sure if doing it that way could really work in a 90-minute movie but uh I thought it was easy to follow and even if you missed the the you know the title card of what year it was you could catch up pretty quickly based on just like even the visual surroundings of what was going on yeah and I think it works for two reasons or at least it works for me for two reasons and uh one is that uh I like the contrast of the more innocent uh Michael Sheen from the past versus the the complete ass that he is in the present you know that there's like that Cockiness that he doesn't have at the beginning of the movie or you know every time you go travel back in time you kind of like you at the beginning of you see what the end point is and then you see him slowly become that throughout the movie and I I found that a lot of fun uh cuz he's a great actor but then the other thing that works is uh what we brought up in coner Corner the mystery of what happened between Timothy spa and Michael Sheen that was really you know that do to do with sports that that was you know no that's the heart of the movie for me like this friendship and how it falls apart and why it fell apart and that was what kept me going and uh I that really made it enjoyable so yeah if you tell it linearly I mean yeah you're going to hit the same beats but I think that it takes away a little bit of the fun of that immediate contrast between the two timelines so I I like them both I didn't find it confusing and I I it sounds like you didn't find it confusing either no yeah not at all um now the central conceit of the club's entire career boiled down to his rivalry uh you know and the whole thing with the 44 days the few week snapshot encapsulating his life um so how do you feel about about him as as as a character because I like I like it I I think that going into this movie I didn't know anything about it right and uh so I didn't know that I was watching the story of his failure and that might be one of my favorite things about the movie that when I mean forget about the the end credits where Tom Hooper is like no but he's great you know just like the story of the 44 days this story of a guy that made every possible wrong decision like he he he almost had it all and then he pissed it all away and yeah cuz he was just too thickheaded to you know Embrace what worked for his enemy you did you know that going in did you know that that was that you were watching a tragedy or did you think it was going to be kind of like the the triumphant sports movie yeah like I said I had only known Brian cloth by name and so I didn't know the whole story and the way it's structured in the beginning makes you think it's going to be Oh Captain My Captain so the fact that it turns out the way it does I think I I think that's cooler for someone who doesn't know the story coming in I the the part where I'm a little more conflicted is with the the character himself and I don't know I mean maybe it's not even a an actual criticism of the movie and it it Blends a little bit with what I was saying in con Corner the I don't know maybe it's just one of those things where like you had to there I don't understand what the appeal of him is like I guess he's a good frontman and and and the movie certainly sells you that that well a big part of Julio is it's late 60s early 70s and there weren't really like people cutting promos and [ __ ] especially in like real Sports you know uh so uh and I'm trying to think of you know I it was a bit more than the 50s but still not everybody had a TV that type of thing so people on TV were already stars and then when that person is kind of controversial for the time and you know has a silver tongue and is talking you know talking [ __ ] in a time where it wasn't known I could see how that portion of his Persona and just his magnetism how that Drew uh I think it was definitely a time period thing now everyone does that [ __ ] yeah yeah no that actually makes perfect sense uh I think I am conditioned by whatever Sports movies I've seen to to expect more of him as a leader I guess as a successful leader you know like the usual leader character be like the coach or the captain or whatever in your in your sports movie I guess he generally does more than this you know what I mean like even okay we just did uh I was going to say semipro and I guess it's a valid comparison still you know semipro Money Ball and in both cases yeah you understand very well what Billy Bean does for the team what Jonah Hill does for the team what uh Jackie Moon does for the team what uh monx does for the team like it is very I can very much see the value that they bring and why they're they're important and through the entire movie I wasn't sure now I get it you know yeah looking back I'm like yeah the value of Michael Sheen's character was just what you just said he was a great [ __ ] talker and he had that presence and basically that carried him through a lot but as I was watching the movie I kept waiting for for more you know I kept waiting for for it to to have a little more substance and it's kind of like you said in con corner I guess the movie is expecting me to just trust them like well trust us he's clearly he's doing something right because the teams keep moving up but there was a part of me that wanted to see something a little more concrete especially because by the time you get to the end of the movie Tom Hooper is telling you that this guy was great like I think that the ending that final title in the movie I don't know it's like they're talking about somebody else cuz the guy that I saw through the entire movie was a [ __ ] I mean you know a [ __ ] that could like speak very well but he really didn't know you know like let's celebrate Timothy Spa Instead The Man Behind the man let's hear it for the boys yes and without you I still have a job in Derby a job and a home that I love now this is where I guess maybe the reason that that character is drwn that way is for dramatic uh purposes you know like Ben said that the real cough was actually nicer and but you know the movie might not be as entertaining if he was a nicer guy yeah that's always the you know creative Liberties are always going to be taken that way I think there's plenty of movies in sports are just based on anything politicians and [ __ ] where people they're what they're known for turned up to a lemon or Charm or their you know grumpiness uh in the realm of historical accuracy the film has been criticized by the cloth family as they state it was not a very true story of events uhoh Dave McKai sued Left Bank pictures over his portrayal in the film he was angered at the implication that he had betrayed cloth in taking Darby's manager's job the Darby manager job excuse me Martin O'Neal who played for Makai at Nottingham Forest before his departure to manage Darby suggested that the film falsely implied that Makai was still a player at Darby County when becoming manager of the club wilst also questioning the portrayal of the relationship between cloth and Pete Taylor though he praised the performance of the actors particularly that of Sheen in March 2010 maai won an apology and undisclosed damages from Left Bank pictures Roy Farland who is a former football manager and player with uh Darby County agreed with Mai's decision to take legal action and said that he enjoyed Sheen's performance but otherwise did not particularly like the film The Publishers of the novel had already been successfully sued by Irish midfielder and former leads player Johnny Guiles he wrote many of the things peace talks about in the book never happened and for that reason I felt it necessary to go to the courts and established that this was fiction based on fact and nothing more what he's referencing there is David pce who Penn the Damned United novel that the film was based on was written for the film by Peter Morgan so is anyone happy with uh their portrayals in this movie how about the the Pete the the Timothy SP character oh I'll continue on here saying that BBC BBC sport journalist Pat Murphy a personal friend of cloth noted 17 factual inaccuracies in the film including various errors regarding the timing of events he particularly dismissed the quote absolute nonsense of a scene where cloth stays in Darby's dressing room during a match against leads too nervous to watch but then we wouldn't have had Moneyball but also I mean that is just that is creative license that is not was that hurt in the real world you know what I mean yeah you just yeah I understand like the the Makai thing okay I I get it you know you're the movie does make it look like it's a betrayal cough brought him to the team and then Maki according to the movie took his job basically so yeah I can see how that would be a point of contention but okay what happens during the match if he just stays in his office I mean yeah sure whatever it's it's a cool looking shot yeah and then the other inaccuracies listed here a lot of like just dates and timing issues one calls out that he didn't drink or smoke the way the film portrayed I'm like but that that's a movie dog that makes the character more engaging and so I'm sure there's a movie I've seen that I was like that's not how it [ __ ] happened and got annoyed by it but as a the older I've gotten I'm like yeah just make a good movie I get more annoyed when people when people will [ __ ] with fictional material to begin with like the idea of how Zack Snider changed the into Watchman or uh the 2009 reboot of Friday the 13th that just made no sense and betrayed everything of the characters up until that point that that shit's more likely to make me mad than watching like you know I always talk about in the boxing movies they portray these fight scenes as each guy is just throwing hay makers for 12 rounds man which obviously that's not the case so I understand how that can trouble annoy anger and to the point of seeking legal repercussions some of the people involved if they feel they've been wronged but for me as a movie viewer I read that stuff I'm like okay it I enjoyed the movie probably because of some of these heightened you know uh or OV exaggerated aspects of your character yeah I've always been of the position that it's something like this when a movie really catches your interest I would say a there's a good chance that it will drive you to learn about what really happened yeah yeah you know and and and so that's a good thing I understand also that that's not always the case and there are some people that might just watch this movie and feel like they're experts on uh there's plenty of people that watched Moneyball and were like that's how you win baseball exactly well even worse and they think that they know everything about Billy be and they can just go and get into conversations and quote the movie as fact instead of saying well I watched the movie and so um yeah I understand both sides and that's the whole point I used to use this this this argument a lot more often when I was less sympathetic to The Plea of the people that were angry about the movies you know I would be like it's not a documentary it's fiction but the truth is it's fiction based on fact and so you should you know have that disclaimer prly at the beginning of the movie where you're like there were literary uh or artistic Liberty staken with the material now Peter Morgan is no stranger to this I mean this his entire career is this he's the guy that uh he's a showrunner SLC creator of uh the crown on Netflix okay and I think we brought it up before yeah he's you know he got into it with the with the royal family because they were saying hey this is not how it happened and his response is like yeah but it's good TV so uh he wrote Frost Nixon the play and then he adapted the movie and you know that's Michael Sheen actually you know I mentioned cont corner like that's I don't know how accurate that is but [ __ ] seeing Frost and Nixon having it out on TV it's like really entertaining and uh if I really cared about it I would go and read about you know the the real interviews and watch the real interviews he wrote the queen uh he's done something else that's also like based in real life so that's that's his thing so at this point I think he probably has you know his list of like stock responses whenever somebody complains about this kind of stuff and uh it's not a documentary is probably you know up there near the top five um it's it's fine I I think that uh not that anybody needs to you know heed my advice or anything I would just say if you ever watch one of these movies I guess make sure you don't quote it as fact just make sure you know that you're watching like kind of an artistic interpretation of reality uh this is my my my favorite go-to now is uh Every Time I Think of a the Steve Jobs movie that eron sorin wrote and uh daddy Bo directed right because that is it's mostly fictionalized As far as you know the things that happen they didn't really happen in real life but what seems to be a mostly like the consensus is that it captured the essence of all the people involved in the movie so yes Steve Jobs didn't specifically do this and didn't say this and didn't act this way but when you watch the movie if you knew steep jobs you walk away going like yeah that actually felt like him dude social network same thing people are like ah this didn't happen it's like yeah but that movie [ __ ] rules so and if nothing else reality seems to have proven that uh the the real zugerberg was even worse than whatever portrayal than the portrayal that uh Jesse ashenberg gave us in the movie yeah it's all valid as per usual you and I are right about something uh exactly everybody else is wrong but but okay so Ben doesn't seem to be bothered by any of these things and he's somebody that's a lot closer to the story kind of like you know when we did b ball you I mean it bothered you the inaccuracies bothered you right uh yeah I think it's that was more of me getting like frustrated with the idea that someone would see that and take it as truth which I guess is the movie's fault but uh you know all the joking aside it talked about my main gripes with that movie fell in line with just some of the pacing and the things they did with the story but uh yeah I'm of like uh the the wrestler is a perfect example obviously Randy the Ram is a composit and not based off of any real person but some of the things that happen in that are just way embellished aspects of wrestling some not some of it's right but I mean down to like the mechanics of it I remember when we did that episode talking about it the part where he takes the razor out so slowly and just you know and like the the way they talk in the match and stuff like that it it's I get it that's what that's what you need to do to make it more access able to more people and that's just like but for me someone who's like educated sub is laughable but obviously that does not affect my enjoyment of the movie it's [ __ ] awesome Pain and Gain is a perfect example I went and read that whole story afterwards and I was like man Michael Bay really jumped all over the place with this do I care no because that movie is awesome like that type of thing so I assume if Ben was here he would say something similar to the effect of yeah I know that didn't happen that way it doesn't change the fact that this is a really good movie and it also to me it sounds like it hit the general theme tone mood of things that happened at that time it's just man it's always a risky thing when real people get portrayed on film because you're going to piss someone off and a lot of times it's going to be someone who's related to the person that type of thing yep so um interestingly Roger debert uh the Ebert of the Chicago Sun Times willio in case you weren't familiar he gave it three and a half out of four stars and he said specifically of Sheen that he portrayed a modern British icon so uncannily that he's all but disappeared into the film and you can tell just by the other [ __ ] I I can tell just by the other things I've seen Michael sheenan that he went out of his way there's all these mannerisms little ticks and [ __ ] that he has and he did his homework for it um that oi is an example of that too yeah that movie there's a lot of things you can say about it not all of them are good but it will Smith's [ __ ] awesome and he is Muhammad Ali and that it seems like for better or worse that Michael Sheen was Brian cloth in this and why isn't he a bigger name do you think because he's obviously he's got the meat he's got the talent yeah he is great every time I see him anywhere I'm like Ah that's good he was uh more recently he was in this uh Amazon mini series um based on a Neil gon novel Neil Gan Terry pratchet novel good omen he plays the angel it's about an angel and a demon teaming up to prevent the apocalypse because they like Earth so much that they join forces to PR the apocalypse it's really good it's really funny and he he plays the Angel David Tenant plays the devil the the demon and he's good and I'm like yeah that is I mean you could anywhere you see him he's always he's always good uh I remember seeing him the first time you know ever on the queen and I had zero reference as far as like I don't even think I knew what uh Tony Blair looked like but he was good in the movie like that's really all that matters um like I said I mentioned Frost Nixon he's fantastic in Frost Nixon uh haven't seen him in the Twilight movies but I'm sure he's great he's a Midnight in Paris he is yes yeah he's uh Wesley Snipes he's Wesley Snipes yes do you remember like when I can't remember you haven't watched 30 Rock in a long time right yeah I know it's been and like I said I haven't watched the whole thing uh I know he's whistle Snipes in 30 Ruckers you've told me well okay so his thing is him and Liz meet at this orthodontist appointment when they're both just like high out of their minds on you know the laughing gas and so they convinced themselves they're meant to be but then when they spend time around each other in real life they just have absolutely nothing in common and Liz just grows to absolutely hate him and he that's she introduced he like introduces himself as Wesley in the the first time you meet him and then like an episode or later or something it's like Mr Snipes and she's like wait a minute your name is Wesley Snipes why don't you just go by Wes or something different he goes if you put me and him side by side who would you think would be more likely to be named Wesley Snipes and then just uh he tells Liz at one point he's like you and I are just like Russ and Rebecca on Chums and she like looks at him really confused and he's like you know Chums I'll be there always the rains pour in whales amazing yeah he's he's tremendous on that but um just at the point we're getting at he's he's got a very interesting filmography and he just feels like a guy that should be a bigger deal I mean maybe that's just I mean it's a bartender and passengers but yeah I mean how do you top that it's just it's still downhill after that uh yeah don't get me wrong he he ain't eating [ __ ] tuna and rice every night no pork and beans for this guy but he's got the Twilight money uh I mean how many times do you think he's turned down and offered to be in an MCU movie probably like four or five times at this point they're running out of people like hey do you want to be uh uh uh how about morph we can make a movie about morph how about Michael Sheen as a Silver Surfer yeah do you want to be uh Omega Red maybe that'll work uh we'd be remiss if we didn't spend at least a minute just praising Timothy Spa absolutely fantastic in this movie yeah man not even you know almost accidentally we've had him three times on the show already and granted I mean his part in the King speech is minimal but it wasn't that long ago that we did get in square so and he was we gave him his propers for that one too yeah yeah I think we it was our favorite part of getting square and it he might be I mean Sheen is great here but but Timothy's Paul might be my favorite as far as you know the moving parts of the movie yeah just him having a heart attack over all this [ __ ] and then his desperation when he starts heing this the Insanity he's like oh you put in our resignation letters yeah you dumb [ __ ] uh col Mei doesn't he has a very one- note character it's just to be very proper and you know very professional in British I would have done nothing of the sort that type of guy and so uh there's you can't he obviously the movie is Michael Sheen and Timothy spal they're the ones that are given the big range but I think all the supporting characters starting with uh meanie and even like Stephen Graham man he's a real [ __ ] yep yep he is I I was kind of bummed that he didn't get a come upin but I also like I don't know how you know because this is allegedly based on true events and I'm like in real life this guy wouldn't get you nothing would happen he's just an [ __ ] and that's that that was the point of the movie he died of a heart attack at 54 so I think he did get he did get his comeuppence in the end that's the only reason why he didn't get to Su the movie yeah because he had been dead for 12 years before it came out oh man uh Jim broadbend like it took me I'm surprised how long it took me to recognize him uh I think it was the hair like I I was thinking that guy looks like Jim Broadbent and then at some point there was a close-up where I'm like oh no it is Jim Broadbent it's just you know he was much younger um I didn't get to bring it up in's corner I always think of Jim Broadbent as a character actor that's mostly playing silly roles uh you know we've had him before on the show for Cloud Atlas you know he plays it the old guy that gets that he's being basically taken hostage by that home and uh that's that's what I think of when I think of the Jim brodman character and so here he's playing the chairman and he's this authority figure and he it's great because that's a character you know that he he keeps he talks a big game but uh Michael Sheen keeps walking all over him and uh I was like figures you know Broadband would be playing that type of character but then at the end he kind of sets his foot down or rather he seizes the opportunity to get rid of this [ __ ] uh which which was good so I still I was surprised when you said that he was nominated for any sort of award because I felt that this was a a tiny part for him yeah I think you know Judy Dench got an Oscar for eight minutes of work so she said the president she did and the Oscar goes to Tom Hooper the king speak so Jokes Aside Tom Hooper yeah yeah let's let's get to it Alex do do you owe Mr Hooper an apology he made a movie I liked um you know he's one of those guys he's you know he he's kind of like Tarantino es in the sense of like he's such a big name but he's only done you know what five six seven movies something like that and uh so it's always kind of a a refresher like when I looked up his credits today I was like oh [ __ ] yeah he's only done a few movies um my take on this from a direction standpoint is this is a filmmaker making a movie about something he's passionate about whereas all the other [ __ ] I've seen of his he's a dude making a movie to try to make a good movie and if that's through song dance visual effects what have you uh topics of the time that are prevalent or you know historical stories that have a a bit of melancholy to them because that's the type of [ __ ] that wins Awards I was about to say Awards batty is how I would describe every other Tom Hooper movie that I watch whether I like them or not yes I was trying not to just default to that so but yes that's exactly how you would describe them I'll jump with the grenade for you Alex thank you so watching this is like son of a [ __ ] this guy can't actually make something that he puts part of himself in cuz this this this is made by an excited filmmaker this is made by someone who's passionate about his subject material so yeah I mean it was 13 years ago or whatnot but he did it so Props to him uh I man I don't know if it's ever going to I mean ever is a strong term but just looking at his filmography since then who knows maybe he'll bust something out like this in the wake of cats cuz that obviously didn't go the way he thought it was going to so maybe we'll get back to this but just his track record sense has just been give me Awards uh and so I'll be interested it's like I said to me his best movie and not even like with a second that's anywhere close uh you you were a bit more if I remember correctly uh forgiving of lay Miz than than I was and uh I think you like the King speech more than me so I'm curious your thoughts of where this lands and what you see from this from the perspective of him being a filmmaker um no I I agree with you're were saying I think I mean of course it's one of those things of like uh was this his first movie second second okay I'm curious what his first movie is like because it feels I mean I can say his first movie is a drama starring Hillary Swank and CH f for that's pretty hard to find at least here well this I mean it's still you know before he in a way was big and it's a little bit of those like uh you know like his first album or his second album before for he sold out I'm not saying that he sold out but he he definitely H he bought in he bought in you can see the change and I like the King speech um Lim is I think that I think I before like I I think that there are stretches of that movie that are amazing and then there are stretches that don't work and uh now that I've seen the the play like on stage I can tell you that a lot of the problems I have with liiz come from the adaptation to the stage and so it wasn't just Tom Hooper [ __ ] up the story it was also like you know whoever adapted it up to the stage it's just the structure of that story is really weird and so you could argue that the movie that Tom Hooper made was kind of like the best that you could have done which I guess is also the story with cats but still you know there's some choices there that are kind of like puzzling and this is uh this a more enjoyable movie overall and I think that it's it's a movie that has I say it has more to say in a less flashy way and I think that that's why I like it so I would definitely I'll put it over you know the king's speach I put it over cats uh maybe on part with the king's spee I like the king's speach I mean we had that whole episode about it but I was like man I don't know why you're so [Laughter] angry um this much like the king speach I'll probably enjoy this even more the second time around it's it's fine it's it's a good movie it's a good movie with great performances namely you know Michael Sheen and Timothy Spa so as somebody that has zero interest in sports this this is like private life life getting me invested on people that wanted to have kids when I don't want to have kids and this is the same thing you know this this movie got me invested in the fate of a soccer team manager when I have zero interest in soccer it's like it's good film making it's good storytelling and really good performances so yeah I wavering between three and a half and four stars I you know what kills it is that that final um title screen yeah it's like the most Fanboy service thing that happens in the movie yeah it it it feels so it's like jolting I'm like oh that that's the story that you were telling me cuz I thought we were in sink and I turns out that you're telling me that this guy was was amazing and I thought that what we were doing was pointing out his flaws uh so okay I'm gonna I'm GNA land on 3.5 star three and a half uh what's your letter grade uh B teetering between a b and a B+ Ian it's really solid [ __ ] it's going to be a movie I recommend to people to check out so Ben you done good kid big fan yes very thank you for bringing bringing this across our table uh I'm sure it's one that we'll reference again at some point in time when we discuss movies based on true events soccer movies why not all right Julio I think we've uh adequately covered the Damned United what's coming up next in contrarian's lore well next so we're back to the friend traga this is episode uh this is chapter three which we'll be focusing on uh Matthew Perry you know what that means Alex it's the Almost Heroes episode hell yes it's a very rotten movie so we'll be talking about it as if it was fresh and on the after hours on the flip side just for patrons we'll be talking about the whole nine yards the the Matthew Perry Bruce Willis team up that uh took the World by storm you are gonna hate uh almost Heros and I'm so excited about it it happens every now and then it happens until then we ready to take this home take us away all right then we're going to go and close this out by moving to our perennial plugs we're going to start off by thanking the festive years who provide our opening and closing tracks they kick us off with Last Stand take us home a summer of 99 be sure to head over to the festive years.com for any and all festive years needs our friend and fellow podcaster hanser is the man behind our logo behind all the graphics on our web page our Patron page our merch page uh he's the guy that came up with that little tomato looking at itself in the mirror so if you like his work you should check out his web page mil demonos dop that's m i l d m o n i o s.p you can see a list of all his novels that he's written uh there's also links to other work uh like his podcast he has a podcast about per Cent Affairs called NBI and a podcast about economy called marinal you can also reach him on Twitter at mil demonos or email him mil demonus hotmail.com hun thank you for all your support and thank you to the support and effort from is Zoe Perez our social media Guru facebook.com/ contrarian Prime if you're not already on there Zoe has it set up with some exclusive videos at preview our upcoming episodes and of course you can find our latest episodes on there as well on Instagram @ contr in Prime on there you will find some clips uh pertaining to recent episodes that we've dropped upcoming episodes interactive Graphics pictures audio clips the whole kitten and Kaboodle Zoe thank you so much for the work that you do for us and thank you to you those that have tuned in and have made it this far on our coverage of the Damned United from our wonderful Patron Ben but that is going to do it for this episode of the contrarians where we're right and you're wrong and we will catch you next time likey by the time in 1999