'They’re just making it up': Claire McCaskill sounds off on ‘BS’ Supreme Court immunity ruling

CONSTITUTION FOR THIS COURT CONSTRUCTED MONSTROSITY. THIS COURT-CONSTRUCTED MONSTROSITY IS WHERE WE START THE HOUR WITH SOME OF OUR FAVORITE EXPERTS AND FRIENDS. FORMER SENATOR, CO-HOST OF MSNBC'S "HOW TO WIN 2024" PODCAST, OUR FRIEND CLAIRE McCASKILL IS BACK. PLUS THE FOUNDER AND EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF PROTECT DEMOCRACY IAN BASSIN IS BACK. PROFESSOR OF HISTORY AT NYU, AUTHOR OF "STRONG MEN," RUTH BEN GHIAT IS HERE. WITH US AT THE TABLE FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY, PRESIDENT OF THE LEADERSHIP CONFERENCE ON CIVIL AND HUMAN RIGHTS MAYA WILEY IS HERE. RUTH, I REGRETTED ON FRIDAY AT 5:50 WHEN YOU SAID THE MOST PROFOUND THING IN TWO HOURS THAT I HADN'T STARTED WITH YOU. SO I'M GOING TO TRY NOT TO REPEAT MY OWN MISTAKES AND I'M GOING TO START WITH YOU. YOUR REACTION. >> SO IT'S AS THOUGH THESE FAR RIGHT ACTIVISTS ON THE COURT MADE THIS RULING AND ALL THE RULINGS THEY'VE BEEN MAKING WITH THE AUTOCRATIC PLAYBOOK IN ONE HAND AND PROJECT 2025 IN THE OTHER. AND OF COURSE THERE'S A LOT OF OVERLAP BETWEEN THE TWO. AND YOU KNOW, AUTHORITARIANISM AT ROOT IS ABOUT TAKING RIGHTS AWAY FROM THE MANY, AND THAT'S DOBBS, AND ALSO THERE'S VOTING RIGHTS THAT COME INTO PLAY, AND ALLOWING THE FEW, THE CRONIES, THE OLIGARCHS, THE LEADER MOST OF ALL, TO HAVE NO CHECKS OR FEWER REGULATIONS ON THEIR LAWLESSNESS. SO IT'S ABOUT TRANSFORMING THE RULE OF LAW INTO RULE BY THE LAWLESS. AND SO REMOVING IMMUNITY FROM THE HEAD OF STATE IS THE AUTOCRAT'S FANTASY. IT'S WHY TRUMP ADMIRES XI JINPING AND PUTIN AND ALL THOSE AUTOCRATS, BECAUSE THAT'S HIS FANTASY BECAUSE HE IS SO CORRUPT. THIS IS -- IT'S REALLY UNSPEAKABLE. AND IT'S THE PRODUCT OF THESE FAR RIGHT ACTIVISTS WHO ARE USING THE COURT TO DESTROY DEMOCRACY FROM WITHIN. >> YOU KNOW, I, IAN, WONDERED IF WE READ THIS WRONG. I LOOK OR COVER THE SLIDE TOWARD AUTOCRACY IN THE CONTEXT OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY'S ACQUIESCENCE TO TRUMP'S AUTHORITARIAN IMPULSES AND AFFINITY FOR ORBAN AND XI AND PUTIN. BUT MAYBE THE SUPREME COURT IS AHEAD OF THE POLITICAL ACTORS. WHAT'S YOUR THOUGHT? >> I THINK BOTH OF THOSE SETS OF ACTORS ARE IN A COMPLETELY UNTENABLE AND OUTRAGEOUS PLACE. THIS DECISION IS AN ABSOLUTE INSULT TO THE BIRTHDAY OF THE COUNTRY COMING UP THIS WEEK. BUT I DO AGREE WITH NEAL KATYAL THAT WHILE THIS IS A DEVASTATING LEGAL VICTORY FOR TRUMP IT ALSO COULD BE A POLITICAL LIABILITY IN THIS WAY. THE SUPREME COURT HAS NOW SAID THAT HE WOULD BE IMMUNE IF HE WERE TO ORDER THE ASSASSINATION OF A POLITICAL RIVAL. AND IN FACT, ONE OF TRUMP'S TOP FORMER OFFICIALS -- THAT IN MEETINGS IN THE WHITE HOUSE TRUMP MUSED ABOUT DOING SUCH THINGS. THE SUPREME COURT HAS NOW ESSENTIALLY RULED THAT TRUMP WOULD BE IMMUNE IF HE WERE TO ATTEMPT A COUP USING THE MECHANISMS OF THE OVAL OFFICE. AND OF COURSE HE'S ALREADY TRIED THAT AS WELL. SO THIS IS FUNDAMENTALLY AN AFFRONT TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. AND LIKE OTHER DECISIONS OF THIS COMPLETELY OUT OF HAND SUPREME COURT COULD ACTUALLY GENERATE THE KIND OF BACKLASH THAT COULD SERVE AS A POLITICAL CHECK ON TRUMP. THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT A GOOD DECISION. IT'S A HORRIBLE DECISION. BUT THAT DOES PROVIDE SOME PATHWAY ABOUT HOW WE THE PEOPLE MIGHT DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS. BECAUSE HERE'S THE THING. PETTY MOB BOSSES RIG VENDING MACHINES TO STEAL THE QUARTERS. BUT BIG-TIME MOB BOSSES CAPTURE THE COURTS IN ORDER TO MAIM AND STEAL WITH IMPUNITY. TRUMP IS TRYING TO BECOME THAT LATTER ONE AND NOT JUST AS A MOB BOSS BUT AS A DICTATOR. AND THOSE ARE HIS WORDS, NOT MINE. >> IAN, WHAT IS THE BEST WAY AT THIS JUNCTURE -- I MEAN, I THINK THAT WAS THE ANALYSIS AFTER DOBBS, THAT YOU DON'T NEED A POLITICAL CAMPAIGN, EVERYONE WITH A UTERUS OR WHO KNOWS SOMEONE WITH ONE UNDERSTANDS THE IMPACT OF DOBBS. PRESIDENTIAL IMMUNITY IS A LITTLE DIFFERENT. LITERALLY -- WHO HAS THAT CONVERSATION WITH THE COUNTRY AND MAKE SURE WHAT YOU SAY IS TRUE, THAT THE BACKLASH BECOMES A POLITICAL LIABILITY FOR TRUMP? >> LOOK, I THINK ONE OF THE REASONS WE'RE IN THE DEMOCRACY CRISIS WE ARE IN RIGHT NOW TO BEGIN WITH IS BECAUSE FOR MOST OF THE 21st CENTURY WHAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE HAVE WITNESSED IS THAT THE POWERFUL SEEM TO BE ABLE TO GET AWAY WITH ANYTHING BUT THOSE WHO PLAY BY THE RULES AND WORK HARD ARE THE ONES WHO PAY THE CONSEQUENCES WHEN THINGS DON'T WORK WELL. THAT LACK OF ACCOUNTABILITY BY THE POWERFUL HAS BEEN A GALVANIZING POLITICAL FORCE OVER THE LAST 15 TO 20 YEARS. AND RIGHT NOW THE ONE PERSON WHO IS BENEFITING MOST FROM A SYSTEM IN WHICH THE POWERFUL ARE NOT HELD TO ACCOUNT WHEN THEY VIOLATE THE RULES IS DONALD TRUMP AND THE PRESIDENT. AND I THINK THAT IS A FAIRLY SIMPLE THING FOR PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND. IF YOU'D DONE WHAT HE'D DONE, YOU WOULD BE IN JAIL FOR IT. BUT DIFFERENT RULES APPLY TO HIM. AND IF YOU DON'T LIKE THAT, DON'T VOTE THAT WAY. >> CLAIRE, LET ME READ A LITTLE BIT MORE -- LET ME READ AGAIN FROM JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR'S DISSENT. WHICH IS -- I'VE READ IT ABOUT SIX TIMES. I CAN'T GET THROUGH IT WITHOUT HAVING ALL THE HAIRS ON THE BACK OF MY NECK STAND UP. I'M GOING TO READ IT AGAIN. "THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES IS THE MOST POWERFUL PERSON IN THE COUNTRY, AND POSSIBLY THE WORLD. WHEN HE USES HIS OFFICIAL POWERS IN ANY WAY, UNDER THE MAJORITY'S REASONING, HE NOW WILL BE INSULATED FROM CRIMINAL PROSECUTION. ORDERS THE NAVY'S SEAL TEAM 6 TO ASSASSINATE A POLITICAL RIVAL? IMMUNE. ORGANIZES A MILITARY COUP TO HOLD ON TO POWER IN IMMUNE. TAKES A BRIBE IN EXCHANGE FOR A PARDON? IMMUNE. IMMUNE. IMMUNE. IMMUNE. IMMUNE. EVEN IF THESE NIGHTMARE SCENARIOS NEVER PLAY OUT, AND I PRAY THEY NEVER DO, THE DAMAGE HAS BEEN DONE. THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE PRESIDENT AND THE PEOPLE HE SERVES HAS SHIFTED IRREVOCABLY. IN EVERY USE OF OFFICIAL POWER THE PRESIDENT IS NOW A KING, ABOVE THE LAW, NEVER IN THE HISTORY OF OUR REPUBLIC HAS A PRESIDENT HAD REASON TO BELIEVE THAT HE WOULD BE IMMUNE FROM CRIMINAL PROSECUTION IF HE USED THE TRAPPINGS OF HIS OFFICE TO VIOLATE THE CRIMINAL LAW. MOVING FORWARD, HOWEVER, ALL PRESIDENTS WILL BE CLOAKED IN SUCH IMMUNITY. IF THE OCCUPANT OF THAT OFFICE MISUSES OFFICIAL POWER FOR PERSONAL GAIN, THE CRIMINAL LAW THAT THE REST OF US MUST ABIDE BY WILL NOT PROVIDE A BACKSTOP. WITH FEAR FOR OUR DEMOCRACY, I DISSENT." >> LISTEN, I'M REALLY ANGRY AND I'M SCARED. AND LET ME START WITH SCARED. I DISAGREE SLIGHTLY WITH IAN BECAUSE I WORRY THAT VOTERS WILL NOT FULLY COMPREHEND WHAT THE SUPREME COURT JUST HANDED DONALD TRUMP. THIS TRIAL IS NOT GOING TO OCCUR BEFORE THE ELECTION. AND FRANKLY, THE LOWER COURTS SORTING OUT OFFICIAL ACTS AND NON-OFFICIAL ACTS, MAKING SURE YOU CAN'T USE ANY OFFICIAL ACTS TO PROVE MOTIVE, MAKING SURE THE EVIDENCE OF ANY OFFICIAL ACTS THAT WOULD GO TOWARD THE CRIME CAN'T BE ADMITTED, ALL OF THAT WILL HAPPEN AFTER -- IT WILL ALL COME TO REST AFTER NOVEMBER 2nd. AND I WISH I BELIEVED THAT VOTERS WOULD UNDERSTAND THAT THEIR POWER, IT WAS TAKEN WAY, THEIR FREEDOM WAS TAKEN AWAY IN DOBBS. THIS IS A WHOLE OTHER LEVEL OF POWER GRABBING FROM THE PEOPLE THAT THE COURT HAS JUST DONE. NOW ANGRY. THE NERVE OF THESE GUYS TO TALK ABOUT BEING TEXTUALISTS. TALK ABOUT -- THE LENGTHS THAT THOMAS WENT TO TO SAY THAT FOR GUN REGULATIONS THERE HAD TO BE SOMETHING ABOUT DOMESTIC VIOLENCE IN THE FOUNDING DOCUMENT. AND THEN THEY DO THIS WHEN THE ENTIRE PREMISE OF OUR COUNTRY WAS TO MAKE SURE THERE WAS NEVER A KING. THE ENTIRE PREMISE OF WHY WE EXIST IS TO GIVE POWER TO THE PEOPLE AND NOT TO A PRESIDENT. SO I'M ANGRY AT THESE HYPOCRITES. THIS IS THE MOST ACTIVIST COURT I'VE EVER SEEN. AND I'M A STUDENT OF THE LAW. I'VE BEEN A LAWYER ALL MY ADULT LIFE. THIS IS AN ACTIVIST COURT ABOVE ALL ACTIVIST COURTS. AND THE NOTION THAT THEY WANT TO DRESS THIS UP IN FEDERALIST BULLSHIT, THAT SOMEHOW THEY ARE NOT ACTIVISTS AND THEY ARE NOT BENDING THE LAW TO THEIR POLITICAL WILL IS HORSE HOCKEY. IT'S JUST -- IT MAKES ME SO ANGRY. AND FRANKLY JUST AS SCARED BECAUSE THIS IS REALLY A PIVOTAL MOMENT IN OUR COUNTRY AND IT FEELS LIKE THE LAST WEEK IT HAS JUST COME UNFRAYED. AND IT WORRIES ME VERY, VERY MUCH. >> YOU'VE THROWN DOWN THE BULLSHIT GAUNTLET. CLAIRE, I'M GOING TO NEED YOU TO SAY A LITTLE MORE. >> WELL, I MEAN, I SAT AND LISTENED AND HAD THESE GUYS COME IN MY OFFICE ASKING FOR MY VOTE FOR CONFIRMATION. AND I'VE LISTENED TO THE REPUBLICANS. I'VE LISTENED TO THE YALE AND HARVARD GRADUATE REPUBLICANS TALK ABOUT WE CAN'T REWRITE FROM THE BENCH, WE CAN'T DO THINGS THE FOUNDING FATHERS DIDN'T WANT US TO DO, WE CAN'T HAVE A COURT LEGISLATING. LOOK WHAT THIS COURT HAS DONE. OUT OF WHOLE CLOTH. I MEAN, THE IDEA THAT THEY'RE ACTING LIKE SOMEHOW A PRESIDENT WAS CHILLED FROM NOT BEING ABLE TO USE THEIR AUTHORITY AND POWER WHEN THEY'VE WATCHED WHAT DONALD TRUMP HAS DONE. HE WASN'T CHILLED. HE CAN'T WAIT TO TRY TO RIP UP THE CONSTITUTION AND DEPRIVE THE COUNTRY FROM A PEACEFUL TRANSFER OF POWER. HE COULDN'T WAIT TO FIND FALSE ELECTORS AND TRY TO DO THINGS THAT HAD NEVER BEEN CONTEMPLATED IN OUR COUNTRY BEFORE. HE WASN'T CHILLED. HE WAS LET'S GO FOR IT. AND THEY'RE USING THE FACT THAT SOMEBODY MIGHT BE CHILLED WHEN THE EVIDENCE OF SOMEBODY NEEDING TO BE CHECKED IS RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM IN THE INDICTMENT THEY'RE CONSIDERING IN THE CASE. IT'S