Episode 19 - The Marathon Journey of Christopher Barrett

[Music] and you realize what's gonna what what the like the method of presenting is also going to make an impact like sure you could write a you know 20 Page document and word that is amazing right but no one's gonna read it like I mean they're just not gonna it's like if you just read it to them it's not like but if you boil that down into the like 10 punchiest things about that 20 Page pitch and you have an image that uh support that idea if you know that kind of pitch like with you know the right kind of imagery is I guess I yeah I started learning how to do that pretty early but it is a craft that was Chris Barrett game director at Bungie uh game director during the new Marathon game talking about how to get an idea off the ground really interesting part of the conversation yeah and you sound really good too now Alex now that I've actually turned my microphone on it's like yeah we went from like street street recording to like NPR welcome we haven't we haven't even done 20 of these yet so yeah that's awesome we're still learning I'm just jabbing at you I'm just jabbing you have something on your mind don't Sharon yeah when we were talking are you just are you just filled with coffee at this point no I'm not it's my second cup it's a big cup though it's my Charizard cup which is the biggest one I have yeah when after we recorded I was like hey I I kind of know I bet you I know and I don't know Chris if you're listening I don't know you but Alex Goes what are you talking about you know him you just spent an hour with it I did okay to some extent but I could tell he's the kind of guy because when you go into like what he does and I've been in those rooms before you know where and everyone that's in that room is like you gotta have a mindset to handle the Personalities in the room there's a lot of strong personalities when you get up to like leadership positions you know you know what I mean and being able to yeah you kind of got to be steady you kind of you kind of smart yeah yeah yeah emotions under control like uh-huh like man like you could tell that he has honed that are you trying to say you're trying to say that he's a cool cat yeah he's cool I hope he thinks I'm cool but you know but it's like I'll ask him oh I'll ask him what he thinks no hold on but seriously but seriously I could tell I'm like when we're talking because he had like he's thinking about there's a million don't tell everybody you know we gotta wait for the post for that yeah oh the poster post okay sorry but anyways I was very impressed it's kind of the thing and like his like he kind of just casually uh okay whatever the post but the art stuff is what really got me excited we didn't talk about too much about art but anyways it's no random accident or surprise that the destiny franchise has such a distinct and gorgeous look to it yeah that's totally a PO I thought we were moving on dude we're doing Pokemon we are all right here here's something um I'm excited about we are we have a new partner we are partnering with are you ready oh I I know who it is oh but pretend you don't because okay who is it tell me yeah reporting with the igda the international game developer Association and I'm I am so excited about this because I reached out to um Dr uh Jake and Villa um a couple months ago because uh you know I had kind of fallen out of touch with the itd a little bit but it was so formative for me coming into the industry that when we started wide load in Chicago there was uh there's always been a game scene in Chicago and we talk about it all the time how I got to meet a lot of other developers was really through the igda promoting Community promoting fair play promote yes promoting access amplifying the voice of those whose voices uh need amplification all great things about the idba like just straight yeah networking yeah this is how I met John vignaki so Johnny V if you're if you're listening we're coming for you buddy who's now runs third party Dev for Nintendo you know and that Johnny Visa Chicago came out of Midway any case one more thing I think Patrick Moran our own very own Patrick brand at uh look North he has yeah he runs that igda chapter yeah yeah and it's International Etc so excited to be partnering we'll have a discount code for joining the idda you'll be able to listen to our episodes through the igda and if you're running an igda chapter we would love to come and visit it's very exciting for us so yeah what else is happening you're in Chicago I am when this episode comes out I'm in Indianapolis I think at Gen Con what are you doing out at Gen Con I was originally when I booked the trip to Gen Con I was this is post EA shutdown so I was like hey I've been working on this deck for a very long time and the deck has a game in it you know and um was like hey you know what I'm gonna go to Gen Con and show it to some people just on the Casual you know like Comic Book classic style not like booking meetings with anybody or anything like that just like hey check out this game I'm working on or that was the idea back then yeah before all the stuff that we have going on before the fourth curtain too you know before all that and that's what I was originally going to go for and then since everything's been going on now I'm just gonna go gonna go for fun uh I might show it maybe like I'll take some decks with me maybe I don't know you should you should you but by the way you don't give yourself enough credit for uh what you've done with your uh to go decks in that game in particular I think it's really cool oh thanks man yeah I really appreciate that have you have you shared any details with like publicly about what it is yeah I did a how to play so that's the interesting thing about that industry right so I because I do the playing card stuff mostly and I do card games a lot but I never really like try to get out there with that and I did a card game I had to play video and I put it on uh Reddit and the how to play Community was like this sucks and it was awesome I'm so glad they did that they're like you don't do how to play yeah yeah but listen this is like the best thing that could have happened because all of their feedback these they wrote me like hundreds of words you know like huge feedback like when you do a how to play video you do it like this you don't do this you don't do that you know what I'm saying and like and at first I was you know I was like I was hurt I was like dude what a bunch of jerks and then I was like wait a second no that's the best thing that can happen to you like they're telling you how you can get better you know in their community so at first I was like oh what a bunch of Jags and then I was like I took it to Hartman and I went back and I think that's something that going back to what we were what I was saying earlier like being able to be in a room with a lot of personalities like that that happens a lot being able to handle that like you know like when people are like rough with you or honest it could be very hard at times and I think that's the kind of uh kind of personality that I've I've grown over the years where like taking and as an artist you have to like they're gonna say it's this yes and how you handle that like people quit like oh this is the worst character I've ever seen they go home they cry and they delete Photoshop you know what I'm saying it's like no don't do that that so yeah so that's that's the that's what I took so what I'm going to do is I'm going to make a really nice how to play video I'm gonna spend time on it I have no deadline because this is a hobby project so I'm not like sweating it you know what I mean um and then I'm gonna take their feedback so thank you people for credit I you know that's really good advice it's sometimes it's really hard to hear feedback but that's how you get better that's how you grow yeah yeah and you listen and you sort it and you take it and it's like yeah it's like yeah maybe so find your find yourself a safe way to go get some feedback so that you can get that muscle memory for hearing what's wrong or hearing what people don't like you know all right well let's uh let's roll our conversation with Christopher Barrett it's a good one it was for me it was a little bit of a walk down memory lane and a chance to hear from one of the greats in our industry yeah [Music] leveling up your Game Dev career but not sure where to start maybe you're trying to break into the industry looking to connect with other people who are making games consider joining the international game developers Association the igda the world's largest non-profit member driven professional association serving all individuals who create games I was in the igda in Chicago met a lot of people great way to network the igda exists to support and Empower game developers around the world in achieving fulfilling and sustainable careers discounts educational and advocacy-based resources mentorship and solidarity across 160 plus chapters to join the idda visit igda.org membership and use the code igda 4th Curtin 15 no spaces there to get 15 off one and two-year memberships as well as a student membership joining the igda is a great move for your career and as a non-profit support everyone making games it's a great move for the whole Community join today [Music] okay everybody today we have a very special guest on the program Christopher Barrett ladies and gentlemen is one of the longest tenure developers at Bungie is that true are you like you that must be like is there something Beyond grizzled agents now uh disembodied Souls I think is the what they call us what do you get after the sword for people that don't yeah he has a sword in the background right now that he got for 15 years yeah at 20 you get a weapon replica um we'll see what's at 25 I'm not sure I got um a weapon called the Lord of wolves from Destiny um it's in my basement it's pretty cool that's the is that the gold gun it's like a pistol right no it's a it's a um you're thinking of the last word maybe uh that's it's like the Fallen um exotic Weapon It's got like little spikes it's um came out during House of wolves if you got your start Christopher got to start back in the myth days I would say you were you were a walk-on you were a walk on modder um I was yeah we were actually we were we had Jamie on three weeks ago three weeks ago but he was talking about his site mythical Noir I don't know if you were part of that Community yeah but I think you guys both joined sort of around the same time ish yeah he was a little before me yep yeah which I have a great story of I have such an I tell the story of joining Bungie like it's such a wacky story but I'm happy yes I want to hear that let me finish your intro okay I guess uh you joined and then you've I think you've worked on every Halo game you were the art director on the first Destiny which I would say is probably one of the stylish games ever it's a very good video I would call it a a tour de force in art Direction inspiration yeah game director of Destiny 2 and when you know when I was there we and I think the industry in general didn't really have the title game director so would love to hear how you guys are approaching that that role today technically I was game director uh post uh Destiny 2 because I was working on the expansions of Destiny one and so once Destiny 2 shipped I took over as gamer got it got it people upset at me yeah actually the entire team the entire team directed the game I I usually say I've got about a 75 to 80 accuracy rate on my introductions um apart for the course currently game director on the game that I think I am the most excited about the game that I uh have been looking forward to more than probably anything in a long time which is the new Marathon game which you guys are working on which you heard about for the first time when it was announced of course never don't know anything about Marathon yeah exactly Chris welcome to the show so great to see you thank you yeah yeah you too yeah it's been a long long time yeah how's the team you know I I think I probably know one percent of the team now because the team is so freaking huge me too I know two percent maybe um gosh you know what it's growing all the time and like uh since we've announced Marathon it just like the applications are just you know flooding in it's just such a good moment for recruiting and whatever but um I want to say it's between fifteen hundred and two thousand maybe it's over that now I don't know something like that wow wow but yeah there's a lot of a lot of people um and I think it's amazing yeah there's a big percentage remote as well too now so I'm super proud of all the stuff that you guys Bungie has been doing and just a lot of the there's just so much good virtuous press that I see particularly like cracking down on basically hate crimes against people in the studio um I think that was amazing to see happen yeah and just all the good that comes out of the foundation and the support for work from anywhere which you guys are always talking about so how much of the studios remote these days yeah I'm not sure I think you know it fluctuates and um I think 25 or 20 or something like that at this point um do you'll do hybrid too uh yep so basically um uh we just opened up you know our head the grand opening of the new studio in Bellevue um and it's not quite finished yet but like we have the big um the big reveal so basically you have the option of working full-time at the office hybrid or um or fully remote so it's kind of the best of all worlds and like you said like I totally agree like it's watching Bungie change over the past 23 years has been you know just witnessing it all and like seeing us go from that you know little place in Chicago to you know what it is now and it's just like yeah it's evolved so much it's such a I mean honestly I mean it's a testament to you know how great of a place it really is to work um you know having you know stayed there for 23 years right I mean it's just yeah um it's such a supportive place and you have a the all the causes that you know we're uh you know speak out against when a lot of other Studios well yeah it's really um pretty proud place to work I guess so being on the outside down and looking at it I totally agree with that 23 years actually you know somebody on our Discord for the show somebody posted a video it was it was like a little tour of the River North office that we had and I I can't remember who was filming it but uh I was in it and I walked into the I don't know if you remember the myth 2 room I worked in there there's there is the camera pans around to a young you in the corner you turn around kind of wave and it's that's it it's like four frames yeah um yeah so so that must have been right around when you started yeah yeah because I was only there a couple months I think um yeah like uh I started in like November November 99 yeah November 99. well I was just gonna say I want to hear the story of like how you how you joined and tell the Jamie story because I'm sure that's going to be hilarious but and I remember what I remember was that you and Bertone were working on was it called Chimera was that it was like a myth mod right right yeah yeah yeah yeah I think I think do I remember right was it called myth Chimera is that right yep yeah and every once in a while and this is this has been true throughout my career at all the studios I've been at every once in a while like a group of artists like meet somebody see somebody's work and they'll get super excited and it's very rare because the art for some reason the artists usually I think like to critique I don't know maybe but they were so excited about you me and yes yeah and that was I think I think we all got very excited about what what you and and Raton were doing um and that's my that is my memory of sort of how we got introduced to you was so some of our artists seeing what you were doing you guys gotta check this out so wait so wait so I did I didn't play myth sorry Alex all right get out of here second best game of all time that's on my list wait wait hold on a second wait are we gonna hear the first what's your number one my number one is uh Dark Age of Camelot okay okay which I'm happy to talk we'll talk the whole podcast so okay so I wanted to ask I know in that era that some games had these like modding tools like Doom 2 had that map editor you could make your own maps and stuff and then you'd be on the PBS site so that you could like upload and download the games or the maps and I wanted to ask is that what myth had and also Chris are you what are you more of an artist correct where where are you because you've done like what so how do you identify like in in this like in that way so that's a two-part question so one uh myth absolutely did not have any modding tools whatsoever in the beginning like literally I was hex editing like the the source file like the file like the data files of myth to figure out how to import like color Maps into the game and like we like the community was figuring out which bits to flip and whether if you change this Z to an R it turns like the you know a particular unit and like to be able to walk on the cliffs instead like he was just yeah it was so much fun it was just like hacking myth to make uh levels and then uh the community actually made uh most of the tools for myth one if I remember correctly like they made all kinds of like and then eventually was it was it myth two that released the actual whole tool set or I believe you one of the other yeah I think so I think the actual like tool set yeah came the official ones came with to uh yeah and that's right the second part of the question was I um I mean I'm a giant Game Nerd I've been like using computers since I was a kid so I love computers and um you know all of that but I went to school for art um so I went to art school and then that's uh where I kind of learned traditional art and then got into digital art you know through doing things like map modding and you know using Photoshop and stuff like that so all of my most a lot of my career at Bungie was um art and environment art and then art Direction and then through that basically a lot of that was sort of creative correction as much as art Direction and that was very much sort of segued easily into game Direction and also I got to work with people like very closely with people like Jason Jones which you know obviously is a you know great uh mentor and tutor and all that so that was kind of how I made the shift very cool so I don't know anything about your early days like where did where did you grow up I grew up outside of Burlington Vermont in a town called Essex Junction and my dad worked for IBM and so there's an IBM client there and so that's how I very early got a lot of introduction into yeah you know having a PC at home or whatever and then um did you have the peanut no no no I don't remember the PC Junior oh no that's what my friend said didn't they call it do they call it peanut it wasn't that IBM PC Junior the peanut we had this conversation it might have been a nickname for it I don't think it was officially uh the peanut maybe um maybe I or I could be remembering it wrong I have all my memories are not so good but but you had you had an IBM PC I'm guessing yeah like an at or whatever it was at the time yeah whatever and then you know I hit up 286 8 in my bedroom when I was a kid and um there's a whole story there too if you're ever like I I ran a two-line bulletin board system out of my bedroom and I was in the biggest software piracy group in the world there's a whole like life of crime as a child it was amazing you know what's weird you know what's weird I didn't think it is a crime when I was a kid oh yeah because it was so hard to get the games and it's like how do you get them and how do you find out about games right and then that's where the whole shareware stuff came out like it was easier to get like shareware stuff yeah it's weird now I can see it as a crime it's like oh yeah you know better now yeah yeah like well I wanted the game and it was like there was no way to get it you know like I couldn't drive to the store like it was so much easier to just go to your friend's house and be like dude have you seen this game rise of the Triad it's awesome and then like then yeah those are the best what was the name of it did you have a cool name like dark lord dungeon yes yes yes it was called spirits Crypt [Applause] yeah Spirits Crypt it was always like dungeon Crypt like yeah Aaron right write that down yeah and did you have ASCII art you have like oh yeah I'm registering the URL right now I don't I want to see what the land the landing page that's how you knew it was a good one too if you'd like like the landing page if it was like an awesome ASCII art image I was actually in the so how I got into it was in the scene of I guess early art uh for me was I made uh so there's asciar which is like all just like text characters and then there's ANSI art which is like the colored blocks but they you know bulletin boards use both so I was there was a whole scene of antsy artists and they would do board like logos and ads and stuff like that for bulletin boards and so that kind of how I got into the scene I guess um so there's all kinds of artwork that you can still see on like on you just look it up online and see all like ANSI art and bullet board logos that I made um people have archived and collected all that stuff over the years so you can see yeah you can see my boards like yeah you can type in spirits with a lot that sounds like an nft collection have you thought about that yeah all right so you grew up you had technology in the house you were total hackers Lord hacker yeah and then I'm guessing in high school you are probably doodling and drawing characters in your notebook instead of taking notes in math and physics class and stuff right so you went to Art School yeah a little bit um like I didn't doodle or Draw that much honestly like I I got into computer art pretty early because the um my high school had Max for in the in the art in the art studio or whatever so I started doing digital art I also started working at a software educational software company when I was they're teen so my cousin worked at a software company and he was like oh maybe you know you do art and whatever so he's like you should come work with us and so I worked full time all through high school at every like you know 40 hours a week at the software company doing animations and art that's amazing that's illegal yeah I think that's child labor it probably was but um yes okay so hold on a second so you're so you haven't graduated high school yet and you're already breaking to like labor law and a digital artist yeah I worked at the I worked at Ben Jerry's this first Ben and Jerry's franchise because obviously Vermont you know it's where beneficiaries originated so there was I worked at the second Ben and Jerry's when I was 11 and I would I worked and I would be working by myself and I would close the shop and do and clean and do all the paperwork like I would do all the accounting I've worked till nine and close the plate all of that is completely illegal like working alone like working till nine you're totally that kid that would buy beer for everyone I don't know it's not I don't know what I didn't like they were just exploiting kids it had nothing to do with it then by the way it was a franchise don't I don't go I'm gonna get in trouble Ben and Ben and Jerry or something but um no they got in trouble they got reported um what was an angry employee reported them for you know so I started yeah I started grinding early they'll name a flavor after yeah that totally builds character though yeah exactly that that must have imparted some foundational formative skills yeah that's that's pretty cool so anyway uh yeah so I kind of knew I wanted to get into art because my brother was into art um and he went to school for uh art at UVM and so I took a votech class not having any idea what it was going to do in life or that was going to be an art you know go to art school or anything but I went to um it was a votech class at another school and I took two years of that so afternoons I would just go and it was like all about uh learning about art from a teacher Professor who was um went to RISD and I've learned so much and it was amazing I just learned all about typography and you know illustration and graphic design like you know just found eight you know fundamental kind of stuff um and so she was the one who um suggested that I applied to Art School like and I was like okay maybe you announced her so I ended up um and she recommended which school that I should apply to um and so I just applied to one school and I most of my portfolio honestly was the digital art I did in uh for the software company because I was really good at pixel art at the time um and they were sort of you know photo realistic kind of renderings of cows and cars and whatever so anyway that got me in um and so I applied applied to one school and then I packed up and moved to Brooklyn New York from Brooklyn from Vermont which is a whole culture shock I'll tell you oh my god dude so that was the 80s then uh no nice yeah nice yeah I think I started in 94. in at Pratt yeah in Brooklyn that was like Peak Beastie Boys too oh yeah oh yeah yep I used to run into uh I ran into Chris Rock at the bodega um Spike Lee's sister used to go to the Blockbuster um yeah it was pretty pretty funny so art school and then and did you work at all between there and when you we discovered each other or a little I did a little freelance work um and then I worked which was awful I realized I did not want to be a freelance illustrator in any way whatsoever that's a hard gig like just you know not knowing when the next job's coming and the illustration you know oh like they um when we had the career services um uh I have so many funny stories about game like here's just two quick ones which are which are funny um uh one they told us in the career series like what we could expect to make when we graduate and because of my major being illustration and they said eighteen thousand dollars a year and I was like okay that is doesn't even cover my you know yearly tuition like I mean it was just like oh no what have I done and then the other one because I love games it's just of like thinking about my early career uh LucasArts came and were interviewing uh students for potential jobs at LucasArts and so I went in with my portfolio and I was so excited about games and I wanted to do all this stuff and like change the you know change how games are made and I had all these ideas and apparently I went in and they hated me they were like who is this guy like he's so full of himself he's like you know he's never gonna work in games and I got banned from ever at this at prep from like when I was there from interviewing with any more companies because they didn't like like they thought I was such a jerk or something which I had no idea of right and so I think I I did I did so yeah and so I look back at that now and I'm like hahaha like look what you know yeah like you know I showed you guys but I just was excited you should mail a copy of every title you've ever worked on you know I loved LucasArts games too so I think I was just you know trying to say something like you know 2D point-and-click adventure games are in the future or something like that right which I mean you know and these guys were like you know 60 and have been worked on you know Monkey Island one and all this stuff so I think they were just like who's this who's this kid get out of here yeah what do you know about the future yeah that's very funny then um then I started in uh my senior year in college started playing myth and was just blown away like the most amazing Mac because I'm at Art School um and so you know there weren't so many games to play on the Mac um right I think there was like unreal had come out for it and then there was uh yeah myth and so I just I mean I just know liked it I know life to myth first before getting into modding it and then like I I can't I make up a different number every time but I pretty sure I was like in the 20s in the world for uh PVP whatever it was called like I don't know what the you know on Bungie net so I played a lot of a lot of it uh multiplayer and then I started getting into modding and stuff like that so that's how I I I wrote because I was doing I started I created a group called Badlands which was like making uh myth map speaks basically and so I would do color map maybe on maps and they weren't particularly great designs necessarily but they looked really good um and so I got a lot of attention that way and I wrote in my bio on Bungie net just you can put a little profile and I said something like hey I'm really great you know I you know make whatever I I'm really great I'm a cool mod like whatever like Bungie you should hire me or something like that right and so uh Max hoberman at some point saw some of my maps in like whatever and ended up looking at my profile on Bungie net and he saw that message and so I got an email out of the blue from Max Overman and who said like hey I saw your Maps you're really talented whatever we have I see you do um you know website oh because I was sorry I forgot I was working on a print and uh web agency in New York City for a couple years and so I was thinking websites and like you know doing Adidas websites and stuff like that so I was doing pretty well like I was doing good but I got the email from Max Overman out of nowhere and it was like Hey you know we have a DOT job opening and you know on the web team would you be interested in I just like you know [ __ ] myself I was like oh my God like I could possibly go work for buttons and so I was very excited but I was again I was doing really well in New York so I was like oh no I don't know like that seems like such a big move I have no idea it's like a completely switching careers but I went for it and then um yeah flew out to Chicago and was picked up at the airport by you Alex I don't know if you remember that you had a BMW I think I I think it was a show-off huh I'm sorry go ahead no I I just I just remember it and you got silver like all the all the trimmings no it was just but I just remember that because it was such a like an interesting moment like the you know the the guy who founded the company coming to pick you up at the airport or whatever um personal service yeah exactly I'd pick you up at the airport anytime Chris you want to come on a visit I'll pick you up I don't have a BMW anymore yeah it's a Porsche um and so you drop me off the hotel where but I went in and I you know I it was I mean it was really neat it was cool it was cool with meeting all the people and whatever but it was also like wow this is so diff like there were there were cots like lined up behind you know behind the the marketing team and like I was like oh what's going on here oh yeah like just like sleep overnight cots and like you weren't allowed to go into the uh the Halo room like you know if you you peek in the door and like everybody turns and it's like who's this you know and Jason looks like he's mad like it was just like very serious um but then the other parts of the city weren't like the myth to Rome was like just you know totally different vibe and then um yeah the whole the web team and the marketing team were really fun so I had a great time we ate on the floor we ate whatever the whatever the Chinese food place or Thai was it Thai place that you guys always get food uh yeah Ming Choi is the Chinese shout out to mink Joy yeah Max and I would get that all the time yeah so it looks fine love me being everybody was fun and then um oh and then I I did a test which was that Max was like Hey can you design the myth2 website and I was like because we have two's coming or whatever and I was like okay sure so I basically got in Photoshop and mocked up the whole you know myth myth 2 website um which ended up being used I don't know if that's inside I don't know if I got uh there was that on the contract somewhere it said any any test any test that you take at Bungie we own I don't know it was funny I was honored at the time whatever and I think it's too late there's too many companies it's changed hands too many times to be able to you know prosecute um I don't I can't remember that that was the thing though the test that was a thing in the industry for a while hey we want you to do an animation test all right hey that's you know you don't get the gig and then you're you're like attack animations are in the game like wait a second that's not okay so then um so max was like you know happy like you know so if they wanted you guys wanted to hire me for the web position so you brought me into your office and like gave me the like offer and I was just you know I was very excited whatever and totally makes sense in rough spec like I was doing really well web design and like the industry was huge at the time it's like before the like the the big you know.com kind of bust or whatever that happened so yeah right right I was doing really well in New York it totally makes sense the offer from a like a level one entry level like a web position at you know a studio with a size but I was just you you the offer I just like I could it was I couldn't do it I was just like oh I want to work here this could be my in and games I was just like I can't like you know it was like you know much less than I could take and I was like I just wish I could and then you know you offered me more to try and get because yeah I knew you know you wanted me to come and I was like but it just I couldn't do it so I had to say no when I was crushed um and so uh yeah I went oh oh the wackiest part of the story um so because I made maps and stuff I went and was talking to the myth two team and I think it was tonsert at the the time he was the leader yeah and so I was talking to him and he was like talking to me about the status of you know myth 2 and how you know they had done a lot of um uh the single player campaign but they hadn't really started on the multiplayer or you know maths and stuff like that I was like oh I make maps like you know I make um this group called Badlands and so I showed him my the website and I showed him some of the multiplayer maps somehow I don't know what happened I can't remember exactly I left I went home to New York with uh I don't know if we actually had a contract yet to create the the multiplayer levels for myth 2. and so I don't know if you remember that Alex but I did that from home at night I made the multiplayer levels like and so I you know I didn't know what the [ __ ] I was doing I was just like excited to do it but I worked with um Jamie on though so he helped with a lot of the units and the setup and I did all the color maps and stuff like that I was having a blast like I so yeah yeah that's awesome yeah so I just you know and then um yeah so that uh that happened then the uh then once we finished that I wanted to do more stuff and then so I pitched Chimera as an expansion to you guys you guys said yes and then I we actually built that whole thing remote like no one was in person nobody knew each other even like we did it over a software called hotline you must remember hotline from there oh yeah that was like early like teams like you know that's right beta basically it was like very weird are you working with Paul Berton at this time to do the multiplayer maps or did he did not yet so he was um paulberton was uh he was in Badlands and he did a lot of the ones that were actually well designed like the the like uh multiplayer maps yeah he's a good designer yeah yeah yeah yeah um I know I was working on Chimera with uh with Tyson um oh that's right Tyson green yep and uh a couple other people that I met in the in the community or whatever but yeah we kind of did that all remote it was like four of us or something like that just yeah my expansion one guy had like some random guy had a well what was the Silicon Graphics machine or something yeah to like which the units were made in 3D and then rendered out like he had one summer yeah that's awesome I don't know how I mean I just like I think to that how the hell did we ship that like I I was working full time and we like actually created a story with art and like levels and you could play it and it was not terrible like I just have no idea like it's and that's just been like kind of something that's repeated all my careers it was so much fun yeah yeah it's the combination of having fun and like yeah just perseverance I guess but you know after that like I know Jamie kept trying to get me to come work for Bungie he was like oh you gotta come we're working on this new game and like you gotta come out like whatever and so I just couldn't you know it wasn't the right opportunity and I was like yeah just I'm good here like how great a pal apartment and like whatever and then he was like okay well you should check this out and he uh uploaded a build of Halo 2 hotline yeah [Applause] and you just tell me that you can't do that and he did and uh this was before Mac world like that no like this was not something anyone had seen and so I I was literally I had you know had my Mac and I was literally driving the warthog around like it was the it was the one where you could drive the war hog or the dude and then you could go inside there was a building with the like the Holograms and like the flags all like all that stuff so I was just like oh my God this is incredible like I have never seen anything like this this is amazing like this like I have to I have to work on this like this is so cool and I also I had it on a zip I put on a zip disk of course and I brought it into work so I was showing it to everybody at work oh no of course I didn't have an NDA I don't think I understand it again what was it called what was the name of the crypt of spirits no no this is far beyond that like no you opened the Crypt again it's like yo the Crypt is back baby and so I was like oh you know I'm actually I'm intrigued or whatever and then the last thing that happened was Jason called me on the phone uh you know out of nowhere okay you want to talk I was like okay we just talked for like two hours on the phone and I was just you know I'd never really talked to him before and so he was just you know it was just a great conversation he's obviously amazing like he's such a you know creative talent and he convinced me he's like okay you should come to and I was like okay I'm gonna do it and so yeah come come to Bungie and made the yeah made the plunge and obviously it's been you know 23 years of standing there right and it was the right decision you know I think it's very amazing career and so that's awesome all right so tell us everything the plot the story all the game Mechanics for the new Marathon Kitty is there ANSI art in it are you doing anything cool like that any like retro there might be I won't say that there isn't one request which is if you remember Doug zarman he's our community manager for the show he's ready to to get called up to do some voice acting you know what believe it or not he contacted me on LinkedIn and has already asked he has already asked and I said sure why not so all right he's ready to go so yeah get him in the booth get him in the booth that'd be awesome the studio has changed so much it's gone through I'm guessing many stages and Evolutions um it's never dull never dull at once yeah there is always something happening something big something wacky happening yeah so I mean like how how was um the initial reception for Destiny when that came out and uh how that evolved in the relationship with Activision and all of that oh my gosh so um I I did like a lot of that sort of uh higher level kind of politics and the working between other Activision and Bungie like well I wasn't too exposed to at the time um much more later because I was on the board of directors at um you know the past I don't know how many five years or something like that um not anymore but um pre-zoning um so I mostly got to kind of see just second hand from you know uh from some of the leadership and also uh you know when I would you know work with Activision so the reception I mean I I killed myself on like I mean in a good way like I'm not saying like I you know I I voluntarily like put a lot of like work into that game like I think I worked on it I started working on it at night sorry 2007 so like during ODST I actually went up and started working with Jason on um on Destiny so um there was me uh Jason and shakai were the only people working on it at the time um and then so I worked on that yeah since 2007 or 8 to 2014 when it shipped so I like that was um a long process it was like a it was like a third person Fantasy game at first it was like Co-op like I mean it just went through multiple changes and genres and we're trying to figure out was like yeah third person for a while it was first person it was a I mean it was amazing to work on because I got to like really be you know an art director in full for the first time and had the full confidence and worked really well with Jason so that was the art in that game is awesome nice job well I was lucky I hit it on me I mean I don't mean I'm not just you know saying this like I got to work with an amazing team like the concept artist that I was able to get to work on that game are like the best in the industry like I mean like Jamie Jones dorge Bell Brooke like Joe Cross like I mean there's I don't wanna like there's a lot there's a lot of amazing yeah so like I I you know I give them as much credit as as you know I might you know take but it was really fresh when it came out yeah what is this yeah it was um it's tickling my eyes yeah yeah it was just interesting like it was like how like how do we take sci-fi how do we make something that's futuristic in sci-fi and make it feel like it has history how do we make it feel like there is fantasy art yeah cyber witches and yeah yeah yeah so not only the genre of like the stuff in it but also the look and feel like nothing was overly shiny it was all like a little bit subdued in color like there was a little bit of vignetting like it was trying to make it feel slightly aged um in a way so that didn't feel like that harsh like everybody was going for that realistic sort of trying to realistic rendering and like whatever just pushing graphics features and for me it was like more about the overall frame and making it feel like a painting but not with like brush strokes and anything like you know it was silly like that well not you know what I mean but like still looking like yeah the overall felt felt more like a yeah maybe like an almost like an Instagram like an album or something yeah yeah like an album cover from like the 70s there was a lot of that yeah yeah there was a lot of that stuff there was an artist um uh Johnny Harris John Harris who's like was one of the biggest Inspirations um if you look he's like an amazing sci-fi book cover painter or whatever um that was a huge inspiration I ended up buying um before people started learning about him and that his original art was for fail I bought two of his original paintings it was like only a couple Grand or whatever a piece which you know is still a lot but like you know for original artwork from an amazing artist like his unheard of so I have two of those in my living room which I'm really uh really proud of us but okay so I didn't even answer the question the reception the reception of Destiny um you know what it was um it was it was tough like it was tough for this dude because we knew we made something we knew we made something I think revolutionary in a lot of ways like bringing the combination of sort of this living world to consoles like combining like first-person action fun gameplay mechanics with this sort of MMO elements and RPGs like that it was social and I had this big world you could explore like we were like oh my God this is amazing like I think we did something you know that's that's incredible um and then to you know have it come out and polygon gives it a lower rating than Barbie Dream Horse or whatever and you're like oh Christ you know like you've got a six I think they gave it a six Destiny one so um it was you know really I mean they just you know sometimes they do that just to get attention I know but like but I think people I mean at the time like that's not true really yeah yeah that sounds harsh no it is so I mean but I understand it so like it was I mean there was a lot of hype like we said things like we're making the you know the next Lord of the Rings and The let's you know like the next Star Wars you know what it was like we said things that like kind of got the hype really up and then I think this is just critic being slightly critical in retrospect it's just like we um we tried to to both tell sort of make this living world that's cooperative and animalic but also we're trying to like tell a um tell us kind of like a story that was like more like a you know a single player campaign at the same time and there's just like too much it was trying to do too much and so having to kind of scramble and like work on the story you know towards the end like there was a lot of like you know trying to get that done and just like people were expecting the Halo like story and we just didn't really deliver that kind of same uh you know single player kind of campaign and so like and that's what most people play right when you when you play for 20 hours and review the game that's what you really experience you don't really understand that there's a raid or that there's going to be like how fun strikes they are like what it's going to be like you know trying to find the perfect you know piece of armor in the you know 100th hour like they didn't really get so did they understand the score did they do though you know how they do like oh there's an update and now we're gonna update our sixth it was the kind of thing that gradually you know grew I mean we continue to learn like you know with each expansion we kind of like really started to hone in on what was special about the game and like um and that kind of thing but you know it was yeah we knew we had something great but we also Bungie does this great thing where we don't like we lean into things like we like if something is you know has a bug or something's not working right like we don't just you know go on to the next thing like we lean in and try and fix things like we try and make things better like we listen to the community as much as possible and right so we yeah we just like kept trying to gradually improve over and over and like make the game better and better so you know I think um you know certainly it took a little bit to get that more varada claim but I mean there's some people saw it immediately like they saw the I think I think the raid was the big Turning Point like once they played um ball the glass they were like oh this is the potential of a game like this like this is unlike any experience I've ever had and you know some people certainly had like you know wow or you know MMOs but like a shooter on Console like people had never had that kind of experience so I think yeah kind of experience stuff yeah yeah I distinctly remember driving into a a mall here in well in SoCal and going into a GameStop it was around it must have been in the lead up before it came out in Activision but it's like they were blowing out everything with the marketing and it was it was everywhere I'm I'm looking at everything I'm like yeah this is gonna be big years and years later I and I remember talking to somebody who was there at the launch at Activision so not with you guys but you know on on the Activision side and he made some he made some comment about how to me it spoke a lot about the difference in culture from what I know between what I remember at Bungie and what I know about Activision where it's like yeah we all we always wanted more I forget exactly the the reference that was used as like less Star Trek more Star Wars you know like that kind of thing so was there ever sort of tension between sort of like creative Direction between between the two like as they were investing and going to Market and thinking about the the IP yeah because you guys controlled the IP right you own the IP Control the IP but I imagine since they're investing so much money that they must have had some controls yeah somehow yeah part of the conversation I think it was I don't know again I don't know how much of this is known or not but it was um uh they basically were like had sort of they they basically Drew like it was kind of we worked together but they had the final say on like marketing and stuff like that so but we had you know the you know control the game and yes we still have the IP but um as part an agreement I mean they sort of yeah I mean that was their wheelhouse too like they just had such a you know we had what two three people on the marketing team like right so like right you know so it totally makes sense um well how much conflict yeah of course they're all I mean between marketing and creatives or game developers and like you know uh you know there's always some amount of tension right like how you know what's gonna what's gonna appeal to the most people what's the you know whether it's just the marketing or what kind of contents in the game like everyone you know everyone has different opinions or feelings on what's going to make something big and exciting what players are going to like what you know and so it's it's always a tough balance because you want things that are a little bit unique or a little bit strange or interesting or like you know kind of have some edges that are that people haven't seen before or like you want to make a yeah you want to do something unique or it's not going to stand out from anything else right but if you make it too obscure or too weird or too you know too much of an artistic Vision then it's not going to appeal to you know either large enough people or you know enough to pay the dev costs of a you know however many you know Millions you have to you know you have to pay for the development costs so I mean I think there was you know definitely I mean they worked on so many big um you know games like Call of Duty and like they have a certain way that was successful for them and so I think it was very easy to imagine hey we should Market you know Destiny similarly you know whereas you know me as an art director I'm like you know I don't want any characters in the on the box art like I just want a picture of the you know the lone traveler above Earth and that should be the key art and they're like no no you know which makes sense like people won't understand what kind of game it is so we need to have Guardians on the you know on the cover holding guns and like so it makes sense like it's just but it's like you know how do you find the right balance um between the two so um [Laughter] yeah and you know like everyone was yeah doing yeah doing the best they can but of course yeah there's always some especially with something that big with so much like so much money involved on Stakes like you know so many people involved like you know everyone's just you know there's always concern or worry that you know if you mess it up like it's you know it's a lot and it's a lot of jobs and a lot of money like down the drain right if you if you really make a bet that big and don't pull it off so I think we did all right you know I mean yeah I think it did fantastic yeah you're having steaks now yeah seven years of development and and then operations yeah wow and then see like the different iterations of it I'm sure do you like is there have you all ever released any of that stuff like it used to be a four-player co-op third person some of it um not a lot I think I mean there wasn't a lot to those early games a lot of those were more conversation just like really simple mock-up builds and stuff like that um the I did a gec art talk in 2013 12 or 13 about Destiny um I did it with Joe Staton and so we sort of introduced the IP of of Destiny and talked about all the origins and some you know the character how they are philosophy um but but anyway we revealed some art in there that was like from the fantasy game I think so it was like you know giant frog with Wizards in a swamp or something like that so um yeah so there's yeah there's a bunch of amazing uh concept art when it was a yeah I think just the GDC Christopher Barrett everything comes up or GDC art Direction bungee Destiny you guys announced a new Marathon what was that a couple months ago what such a blur yes I think so yeah maimed Mage yeah man yeah so has that been bouncing around in people's heads for the last seven years or or is this was this one a little quicker to get from hey we should do this too yeah yeah it was quicker yeah it was quicker than that um but uh you know obviously it's been you know uh in development a while it's been really interesting just the you know not to go too much into it but obviously I can't but just bringing back a beloved IP like you know and in in doing it justice and trying to make something amazing like but also you know building upon what was from before and how much do you you know innovate how much to you leaning from the the Legacy stuff it's always an interesting um yeah interesting challenge but um I I really think we're gonna you know do it justice and make something cool um so that's as much as I can but I'm sure yeah people love the art apparently like people like to work I mean that we were like I mean I will say like you know fresh yeah it was it was you know it's a little bit of a risk to like try something you know that new and kind of you know worry people are gonna you know you know like why doesn't it look exactly like you know Craig Mullins are from 1994. you're like uh well um but no I think it paid off people yeah people were really psyched about it and so that's I think it looks amazing did you art direct that or you now have an art director working for you who's doing that our director with that relationship are you like you go and I will help you or is it are you more involved less involved like what's that like so Joe Cross is the art director um he's amazing he worked um he worked uh on Destiny uh for you know many many years he worked on Destiny 2. um he's amazing he he drives all you know most of the art in the art Direction obviously with my background in our Direction I think we have a really good relationship and we can sort of help each other and I understand his language and he understands mine and so we're able to kind of Riff and go back and forth so I'm more there to just kind of you know help level up his ideas and make sure it's working well with the game Direction and get excited when he's doing cool stuff and um you know when think when he's trying to do something a little bit edgy or different I can back him up because I understand where he's trying to go and like say no no we should do this this is amazing um so yes we have a great relationship he's is a super talented artist he also worked on he worked on Dune the movie recently he worked on the the live-action Ghost in the Shell like he's just like a really yeah I like that movie it goes in the show movie those are amazing visual treats all of those like for our listeners some of whom are in Game some of whom are not what do you do you know like game director on a project of and I don't know what scale the project you know people wise is now at this point in its development but you know your date your day to day obviously you have an art director who you're working with to establish the look but what what's the rest of your kind of like day to day look like yeah a lot of it depends on the like the stage of the project um so obviously like so at one point it was one person on the project and it was me and I was you know trying to figure out what what we were gonna make and how to pitch it and how to you know get people excited and all that kind of thing so it kind of evolved and that's a very different day than it is now um you know early in a project it's a lot about momentum trying to figure out what are the next steps like trying to solve like understand what we're building and trying to think through like think ahead to all the problems trying to get things down on paper because none of it really is you know it's very hard to get that stuff in engine early so there's a lot of like future planning and ideation and like trying to think about all the elements of the game from the creative and then you know while we're prototyping uh certain parts of the game but basically my role is I'm in charge of all creative on the project and so that includes game design or correction Like You Know audio uh you know animation like all of that stuff whereas I have a um the other person Scott Taylor is in charge of kind of the business side the you know people the you know working on budgets and you know all of that because he's like the business side of it so it's like there's kind of a pairing there um and so that's kind of yeah kind of my job uh and so I work with people like the art director I work with people like you know the world team I work with the systems team and we you know we just sort of you know all of that stuff and at this point at this point um because the team is grown and we have people in like all the positions kind of spread out you know across all the different areas of the game now a lot of it is me making sure they're like there's still a holistic Vision that they all kind of I like I can help bridge the gap between like all of those different teams make sure they're all you know aligned working on the same um you know working in the same direction I'm also looking at Parts you know playing the game and like looking at it and giving feedback a lot of just meetings talking about you know the current build and where we're at yeah it's all it's kind of all over the place because I'm working with publishing and marketing also because this is also not just launching a game it's about launching this new IP and so you know talking like there was a lot of you know work on you know the trailer that came out and so that was a lot of working with marketing and Publishing on the look and feel and you know who we were going to work with with a you know which agency we're going to work with to do the you know the CG part of it and you know all that stuff so I mean and also like make going getting a game from that you know from beginning to this point where it's you know been green lighting is gonna you know it's gonna come out a lot of it is not always about the game it's about working within the studio like talking to people about what you're trying to make like building confidence and like your team and your vision like trying to I mean there's a lot of like there's so many people and energy and money involved in this like a lot of that is just sort of pushing you're selling yeah selling yeah internally selling and kind of just like guiding your vision your thing through the process of like I go getting out because yeah Bungie's never been through Studio two game Studio before um right right we've always focused on kind of one um one project and so that's been a whole Adventure I think that's super interesting like that like you're just describing there like that work that has to happen for an idea to become real like you energize a whole group of people you unlock resources to make something happen you Marshall like you synthesize a whole bunch of I Concepts into some Vision sometimes I do call that selling and I think it's a it's a very underappreciated skill like it's not really taught and some people are really good at it I think you are really good at it and some people are not good at it and they you know they I'm not good they wonder you're good at it um you just you just have so many ideas that you know you're frustrated leave the room dude we're trying to talk I'm sorry go ahead it's an granted yeah how did you get good at that where did you learn that I would say it's just been gradually learning over over uh over the years so I did get kind of a pretty quick you know just sudden kind of introduction to it when I was doing web design because I you know I was very quickly I was pitching to companies like because it was a small company and like I was like pitching you know you know we have to pitch companies to be able to do their you know get ready to be they come there to see a record or yeah get clients and so yeah I would have to stand up to people and you know sort of talk about the vision of the web design I had worked on and stuff like that so I got a little bit you know I was obviously very nervous at first because I'd never done that before um and so it was just kind of yeah gradual and then you know doing things like having a stand-up in the studio during Destiny and kind of you know talk about the art vision of the game like in front of you know 50 artists or whatever you know 100 Art whatever things like that you just sort of have or the GDC talk like you just kind of get refined yeah yeah like the Lucas the Lucas Arts thing probably had had some refining there too right yes oh that that's too far and then you can bring it back and that's it no it's true right it's like you're refining it like you're like you're trying to actually to like go back and forth I think art school did a lot of justice for me there because my I wasn't just an illustration just a degree it was Communications design and so I was basically like some some schools really are about craft and like making an amazing illustration or rendering the school I went to was very much about like creative problem solving like how do you like if you have a client and like they have the need that you you it's your job to solve that problem for them in whatever way you can so if you all you can do is focus on one particular illustration style you're not going to be able to solve problems for a client like and so right because they're going to just have that one thing in your tool set and so it was really about how do you learn every possible tool set if they if the right thing for a book cover or a movie poster or a graphic design is to look like a 60s you know cowboy film image like you need to be able to like understand that and present that to them as a thing or it look like a you know modernist you know deconstruction you know what it just like or maybe they don't even need a post like is there still like a lot of thinking about how do you creative problem solve and I think that helped because it allowed me to kind of think what problem am I trying to solve and so in a pinch like you know part of the problem is how do I communicate this thing how do I like what are the like most essential parts of it what are the things that are most relevant for someone to know or that your audience how do you present that in its best light how do you make sure you're not like you know you have the concise enough information where they understand it but you're not like drowning on in details yeah and that kind of that kind of skill set I think yeah just practice and doing it but yeah my degree I think helped a lot that makes a lot of sense you know like if you if you put thought into like why you made your decisions then when you share it with somebody it's not just hey this is my idea I like it because it's my idea it's it's like hey this is the thing and it's here's why it's like this and the more that relates to the person you're sharing with the more they believe and you realize what's gonna what what the like the method of presenting is also going to make an impact like sure you could write a you know 20 Page document and word that is amazing right but no one's gonna read it like I mean they're just not gonna it's like if you just read it to them it's not like but if you boil that down into the like 10 punchiest things about that 20 Page pitch and you have an image that uh support that idea and you can just be like if you can just back two sentences like with ten slides for each slide and just like it's this it's this it's got this and this and it's exciting and here's why we're gonna do it and here's how we're gonna do it and also this like if you know that kind of pitch like with you know the right kind of imagery is I guess I yeah I started learning how to do that pretty early but it's it is a crap like it's a skill it's really hard to do it's really hard that's like 30 seconds you just said there is almost like it's it's that's a concise pitch on how to pitch and you have to be excited too like you have to be excited you can't just you know you like yeah it's funny like ideas everyone has ideas everybody like ideas yeah how do you convince other people that it's a good idea how do you like the theme you're talking about earlier I like the selling how do you go from how do you how do you nurture an idea to hundreds of people like building that idea like in whatever ecosystem you're in is just yeah that is half if not more of the the job of any you know game you know director game team yeah and actually the other thing too with that is like once you get everyone on board and everyone's like yeah this is awesome let's go let's go halfway through the Journey people start to like wake up from that spell and like wait a second what are we doing here and then you have to like reconvin yeah you tricked us no no I didn't trick you check it out this is what and you have to like keep doing that over there yeah yeah once you get the playable it's it's helpful yeah there's always like that desert there's that desert between I sold you on this idea and it's not playable it's like oh is this really good what are we doing all right come on come on let's go get ice cream yeah okay do you have like a minute or two where we got a bunch of questions for you sure from our Discord okay maybe we could pick like let me open it up is uh did you play Marathon the original yes have you played it recently yes so there's a question from the audience uh which which Marathon terminal is your favorite one all right we'll skip that one yeah let's get that one I love all of them and I have looked at yeah that's a safe answer Chris there's some there's some funny stuff like I forget all the stuff that like Jason and Greg stuck in those terms there's some funny stuff there's some Colony [ __ ] for sale there's some there's some good stuff have you guys called Greg Kirkpatrick at all he's like I think he's teaching at Cornell oh really yeah let's see okay here here's actually I thought a kind of an interesting question because you have been through kind of all the all the eras you know like you were at Bungie in Chicago when we were independent you were with Microsoft independent and then now with Sony um the quite the question was like which of those transitions had the biggest impact on you like what what changed the like we went to Seattle uh I mean when you guys went independent uh and and now being with um Sony what changed her life the most gosh I mean I I will answer but I also want to say like all of those have been interesting like I've I'm I've had I'm happy that all of them have happened because it keeps the job interesting like like you know like if we're just doing the same thing for you know whatever 23 years it just gets old like but there's always been a new chapter there's always been some new exciting thing on the horizon there's been like oh my gosh we're gonna separate from Microsoft or work like we got you know oh my God we gotta pitch you know we I mean you know you're pitching Destiny to different Publishers like and then finally working with Activision and like it's just been uh you know this I I guess just this interesting roller coaster so they're all they all have been great and so are interesting at least right they've all been sort of life-changing in in some way whether it's you know just the air of the company or how we you know what's also interesting I will say is that team and how we work and the the culture at Bungie like has we've always really hung on to that like I would like the an outside influence I think maybe of any of those companies the most maybe was Microsoft because we had to work at micro like we actually our office was inside Microsoft for a while um and then obviously we you know left had our own building at some point which put kind of went back to that kind of bungee-ish you know kind of uh culture that felt sort of separate from there you know from our parent companies but uh life I mean obviously I mean obviously I think the Microsoft one right like I mean I think you know leaving like leaving Microsoft because you know it's just Microsoft I I think Microsoft was a great thing for uh Slug it you know like we got to make Halo like you know we got to you know uh we got to do make a lot of internal changes I think you know and how Microsoft developed game develops games and stuff like that but obviously like getting a chance again to kind of be independent and you know Forge out in a new territory on something big especially after Halo I mean how do you I mean whatever there's quotes and vidox about how do you follow up halo you know we'll see but like that is like what a challenge like how do you how do you you know and you know to some degree we never will because Halo has been so huge and you know yeah I think that's probably the biggest one is the you know the Microsoft just because it felt like I was only independent like in independent Bungie for you know a few months before you came into the room and were like hey guys we're getting Microsoft is you know uh buying us or whatever but um so that was that was pretty cool kind of yeah feeling independent and trying to you know do something new cool okay Chris thanks for spending thanks for spending a Saturday with us yes Saturn he's here on a Saturday everybody you get you get an early morning you get early morning Chris like this is the shirt I slept in like you know well you you look great for the early morning Chris thank you good on you thank you see you too thanks for being with us um nice meeting you don't be a stranger yeah when you get your when you get your place all set up uh out in uh on the East Coast let us know absolutely we'll come visit absolutely sounds good good luck with everything good luck with your new studio and everything really looking forward to the new marathon and uh don't be shy with the beta keys any help absolutely thank you sorry take it easy bye-bye see you around yeah what a great time catching up with Chris what is Saturday talking about it we don't usually do these out of Saturday no we don't you know everybody had stuff going on thank you Chris Christopher yeah thank you yeah so yeah wow I you know that that conversation gave me a little bit of feels you know because uh a lot of memories for me and hearing about how things have evolved and changed Etc yeah a lot of Errors there too do you say eras or errors I only made one mistake on the in the intro I think did you I didn't think it was a mistake it sparked conversation it was flavoring yeah but yeah so yeah lots of eras yes yeah and I think it's so crazy right like how our industry has had that many different and he's been in all of them he hasn't done mobile that's the only one in VR right but regardless like those are those are those are peripheral things not peripheral as an item but like in your peripheral vision of like your career like it's going on on the side yeah and one of the things he said that really gave me the feels was when he said that he went to Bungie and there were cots in the office yeah that's gone that doesn't exist anymore yeah no that well if you're getting all nervous and sweaty it's like I think it's I think it's a really interesting the I don't look at that as a bad thing I think it showed that there was an ERA where there was a lot of hard work being done and a lot of sacrifice being done to like create something like a lot of those people doing that loved video games so they were willing to you that's true you know that's true and you know I kind of look at it too like I mean we were all so young you know like when the company started I was about 20. 21. nice and yeah and we I mean we didn't know anything we just wanted to do stuff make stuff happen and we had very unrealistic views of what career or work life was about you know yeah in a lot of ways that I guess I'll call it ignorance it's good though to have that kind of ignorance I was gonna say like it it led us to do some things with like looking in hindsight we're like oh that's not so good like we had this we were very proud of the first t-shirt we ever made which had the bungee logo on the front and on the back it said don't make us kick your ass that was the slogan it was in red you know it's like was it dollar signs too like no but you could have been but yeah but then also that like you're saying that ignorance was also was what made us try things that maybe we wouldn't have tried if we thought that was good yeah I think in in a lot of ways if you want to try if you want to do something new you have to either be really Brave or ignorant or some company ignorant in a good way you know what I mean like just not know what pain you're setting yourself up for and it in order to sort of take those risks I suppose yeah it's interesting how sometimes those things they can be good and they can be bad like you don't want to do that when you go to space right when you get on a spaceship you want to have all your checks and balances because then you'll die but it's like but you also you also I think you're right but you know what I mean you know that's a really interesting example too because for the longest time like uh going to space was like a government Endeavor and if you look at what like SpaceX has has been and I I don't I I'm not trying to make a commercial for Elon Musk we're sponsored by uh by uh but if that their approach they're not doing that you know they're not like over engineering stuff like to the thousandth degree before they try anything they're like yeah we'll launch this thing like 10 times and have it explode that's fine you know because we're gonna get it right eventually yeah and it's their money too I think with the government it's like the people's money right so they're maybe where do you think SpaceX is getting that money for oh really I'm like I don't know yeah I think you're right they are getting subsidies there is like Risk like I'm gonna get on a giant rocket ship but then everything is checked and I think it's weird because I've known guys that have made games or or even art and they spend so much time on it and they're checking it and checking it and redoing it and then throwing it away and then and then they never show it to anybody um yeah but let's bring it back let's bring it back to Mr Barrett um I never heard a story about the where site he was operating uh as a teenager um do you remember what was the name of it again do you remember because we gotta get that URL it was it was I'll go listen to it yeah it was pretty good that was pretty good and like sort of bringing that all full circle to now he's um oh God yeah I didn't know that story either man if I knew that story at the time would not have been happy but um but yeah now we're running these large teams and motivating uh creatively like create like managing creatively creative and and launching new ideas getting them off the ground taking everything he learned from uh his days doing web web development which is very client-based uh up up through you know this time on Halo and turning that into I think one of the one of the most important but undervalued skills or undertaught skills which is just like selling ideas which I think people think selling is such a dirty word I don't know maybe not everybody people in CR in in a creative field I think look at like sales as like a like something not good um absoluted by people that are too salesy yeah but like that there's that good skill of yeah of of communicating an idea and you know like how ideas are formed and communicated and motivated other yeah Steve Jobs is really good idea too right like that was like a master yeah his superpower yeah you would watch it you would watch one of those Keynotes and be like I'm I need to get that yeah they had a name for it right it was like the yeah it's the reality Distortion feel I've been in there I've been in there before yeah and you have to keep it on like you have to keep the reality Distortion feel powered to like get you through that desert that's right about wait and also and and being able to handle the room with those people like and and that I'm not speaking negatively of the people in there it's everyone has gotten there because they're they're very motivated they have a lot of opinions and they're good at what they do that's right yeah and you put a lot of people in a room like that you have to be able to like it's a company It's a combination of a bunch of skills which I think is is fairly rare to get in one place yeah that creative leadership is difficult well cool thank you everybody for spending another hour with Aaron and I um I hope you enjoyed this week's episode we certainly did and we'll see you next time cheers everybody thank you for listening to the fourth curtain podcast to get a peek at upcoming episodes or descending questions to the show visit our site at theforthcurtin.com and be sure to follow us on Apple podcast Spotify a fire where we get your podcast thanks again for listening