thank you so much for joining us today Maya um our theme is Mission matters and you had a big mission you left basketball and chose to pursue kind of this different direction um can you talk about the impact that you chose in impacting one person versus impacting many people yeah that's such a great question for the time that we live in where we can have access to the world you know through technology and there's just this subtle unspoken even pressure to impact many as the only way to Val evaluate your success and so that was like the opposite of my path it ended up being where going from being on the court um playing and in influencing thousands to doing the hidden work of of of fighting and relating to one person and so I I just want to encourage you guys to remember it has to start small it has to be authentic it has to be organic the things that I'm now able to share with many people is completely and totally based off of my experience with one it started with one and so there's a way that we do things there's a way that things actually are helpful and authentic and Powerful is when it's real and so I think it's most real when it starts with that one um experience that you have with another human with another you know small group that you can then share um to other humans who can can replicate or be inspired by that one so it's it's very tempting to to jump out of the gates and and to measure your success by numbers immediately but always remember that quality you know over quantity especially in the beginning because what are you going to give the quantity if the quality isn't there and Jonathan you were that you were the one right that was must have been humbling how did that feel as she kind of attacked this Injustice with you man as I sat in my cell after we get off the phone and just living my life like I was aware of I started to go to the library and have new win and there were times where I would I would spend 20 hours a day researching and writing law drafting my H's petition which led to my freedom by writing that like she she she kept me going it wasn't just her she wasn't by herself it there was a team of people it takes that you know you have to you have to use your team and be involved with your team and communicate the vision and we all we all work together and you know I'll be honest I you know I had you know I had I knew other guys that were innocent in there and they didn't have help and there there's a see of people in prison that say they're innocent you just you just don't know until you see the facts but the fact that it was it was me like it was humbling and and it blessed me and it gave me strength in a dry land was like water getting a cold glass of water sitting out in the desert you know there's a term I've heard you guys talk about suffering well which I can't even comprehend that but um you've processed that how what does that mean to you what does it mean to suffer well babe um so if if if if you're a person that is going to be helped that's suffering like you don't you you don't want to wax mumbl and complain all the time like you you you want to you want to be thankful for what you have um and and the pain of whatever you're going through you cannot let it cause you to harm other people by your words and your actions wow so that means you have to have a different heart posture yeah I mean we can go home on that I mean how I have to ask a follow I mean yeah how how do you how does that not affect your entire being right when you're yeah when you're going through that uh you know there's there's there's a there's a there's there's a a prayer called the acceptance prayer the Serenity Prayer um you got to know the difference between the things that you can change the things you can't and you have you have to have the wisdom to know the difference um there are some sufferings that that you cannot change and and if that's a reality that you cannot change you can't focus on that be all the time because if you focus on that like you will miss all the other things that you have going on and all the beauty yeah and I was going to say Jeff speaking from I feel like where where some of you are sitting from I see the suffering I want to do something with the resources that I have to try to help and this is something that in our day and age again just I think with the technology and how it's impacting our our day-to-day like being with people in their stuff and making it your stuff like I had to over time make Jonathan's stuff my stuff because that's what you do when you have relationships with people that's what life is about is is you know my basketball experience if you're doing that to Simone you're doing that to me like this is this is our team this is our this is our Squad and and and our heartbeat is expanding your vision of who your squad is right your squad isn't just the people that you're most comfortable with your squad is the prisoner your squad is the Foreigner your squad is the the orphan and these aren't my ideas these are these these come from ancient uh ideas but um you know have the courage to be in the presence of people and weep with them when they weep Rejoice with them when they rejoice and create margin in your life because you can only do so much so create that margin in your life so you have some some emotional capacity get some emotional tools you have so many tools right to know how to carry hard things and you do it with other people we don't do it alone and so suffering well I think it just means the suffering that you do doesn't make you less human let that suffering make you more human make you more empathetic make you more compassionate make you more resilient make you more have more perseverance and like Jonathan said you know once you let yourself be moved by the struggle find a way to keep moving through the suffering yes and keep moving forward and again it so much easier and better when you have a team or you have people who've been there can pull you along and show you the way you know build that team of people that know how to do hard things and you will you will make it through uh how many times uh did your case not get you how many times did you take it back to the court how many times was it so back to the library I went to the library and I didn't know anything and then I learned things remember the first book I I read I drooled on it cuz I fell asleep I didn't understand any of it just woke up sad and dejected 6 months later I stayed in it and I started to understand conversations and and then I I started talking to different lawyers and helping other guys around the prison and like they were impressed with what I was doing and my knowledge and I was impressed with myself I'm like man I got this like what's going so it's time to file an appeal and I read I read every case I looked at every treaty every every statute every every precept everything related to it connected all the dots and before you know it I lost 11 appeals not every year like sometimes appeal La last anywhere from one to two maybe three years back to back to back to back and I had hope and I was going forward um and yes that those those were failures I failed to to come home but there was a lesson in all of that I was learning in your book you wrote this quote when you deprive people of their basic and fundamental needs you put them in a dog fight for resources and respect that is a powerful idea around dignity um can you go further into this like how does that play out for you and and the things you see um when I was inside I saw you know you wouldn't think you'd see doctors and lawyers and uh police officers in prison uh I would I I there was this one guy who was a doctor I I saw a different lot of articles about him he had ads on TV few years later he's in he's in he's in the RN block and I'm like hey man I saw you on TV he said yeah yeah I was on TV didn't want to get into why he was there and and a few years after that I started to see him completely turn into a Savage like he started robbing people uh started carrying a knife didn't care about his appearance like he had bags under his eyes and I remember he got into a fight with a guy over a 20 cent soup 20 cent soup and I just it just rocked me you would think after a person has gone through school and all of that had all this social training all this in their community that that wouldn't happen but it did and it it caused me to want to think about like man like if I was doing well and I didn't have my resources how am I going to act and it it it caused me to you know just to further dig into myself and actually talk to my friends about that and I would say hey man just because you don't have a certain amount of things don't mean you got to act less than or savage or low yourself like you're still a human being and you have dignity and that you matter even though they label you as a prisoner yeah I'm a prisoner too but I'm telling you that you're more than that M wow come on yeah that that is my heartbeat you know something I've been talking about since I stepped away from the game well while I was playing but especially now that I've stepped away to the game is the the the championship is not a trophy that we hold up when we're watching all these these sports teams play the championship is seeing people flourish human flourishing human dignity that's why we are alive if we're confused about our purpose that's what it is to do everything within our power to bring dignity and flourishing to our community and so it just it kills me when when I see any anybody being dehumanized it's it's just it's a lie that's not who we are we are human beings with with worth and dignity with the special gifts that deserve to be nurtured and developed for the benefit of our community I mean that's exciting work right so if we have leaders if we have systems if we have cultures that you sense or see any thread of dehumanization it is our responsibility to cut that off and replace it with dignity if we have that power if we vote right we're going to talk about that a little bit later vote for people in our local politics especially in our Prosecutor's offices especially that have language and action that is about human dignity and you can tell if you spend time with people and how they talk and how they treat people how they see the world if they value human beings or if they see human beings as a means to an end of some sort of power or Comfort or self- protectiveness you guys know what I'm talking about so you know I I get inspired of the beginning of your question of when you set people up for that scarcity mindset we have the ability to not set people up for that yes by how we share by how we speak by how we structure things so that power is is given to people to use it for for good with boundaries and um we can do so much we just have to believe we can and and be that so other people can see it that's how things change when people see oh they're doing it like that we can do it like that so I just I get really excited when I see like in our story things change and now people can see oh that's possible and then they do it and then they do it and we keep talking about it right because we have a lot of bad news that we get access to but let's talk about the good news because there's good things going on and we just got to keep talking about it like we are this morning so you win everything literally You've Won literally you win in high school in college in the WNBA you won this trial you prob like this is like it's a it's an amazing ability you have right this is actually a true story but um so what does success mean to you now I mean because I think it's a diff you're living a different story than the basketball season of your life I'm curious what success and and celebration means to you today yeah that's that's a beautiful question um my secret to all those things that you just mentioned was I was on great teams like literally um I including the team team Jonathan you know first of all can we take a minute he taught himself law in prison can we like clap for that that's amazing incredible that's right like that was my teammate right so the success comes because I was on great teams and people who've come before me to set these cultures of unselfishness of wanting the best for the other of hard work of perseverance like all the things that we're doing now matter for the next ones coming up like I'm a beneficiary of I'm the I was the next one and now I'm trying to be the next you know pass it on to the next one but um like we talked about earlier success is not just the statistic right it's not just how many points did she score that success is connection with your fellow human success is becoming more of who you were created to be with your fellow humans success is Joy success is suffering well success happens when no one's watching and when you have a platform in front of thousands or millions and so I I don't want success to be put in this box of a certain stat right success is qualitative and sometimes you can't put put a a label on that you but you'll know when you see flourishing success is a step towards flourishing and it and it and and you guys know what I'm talking about you know what that looks like and it feels like but sometimes in our culture we don't have labels or trophies for those things and so as Leaders try to cultivate a way to celebrate when you see steps towards flourishing and that will just catch on and people will start doing it and and look forward to it and and and jump into it so um I love to see when people start redefining success in a more of a qualitative term then an appearance of of success which is way easier to be performative and to put on but actual qualitative success in celebrating celebrating that and that's what we do our life right now is about celebration right there's enough hard things and work to do we got to stop and celebrate the good things and the things that are growing and the things that are beautiful and to feel appreciated right like what's it all for if we can't enjoy when we see life and we see success so that's what I'm I'm in charge of that in our home in our community right now I plan the parties I try to see the people and be like did you see so and so did so and so with with that oh we're going to have a dinner you know like plan the thing and stop and do that it will fuel you for the next like few months right so I'm all about celebrating and Jonathan you worked 23 and a half years for the chance to be released right yeah so then that happened and then what did you work toward like what do you like you gave everything for that moment and then what do success look after that moment for you um in general I I'll start with success like we have a tendency man you may not be a Maya more irons you know you may not win you know all everything on every level you may not be able to shoot threes from half court you may not be that person I'm just saying so what about the people who who may not be so skill or just starting out it don't know like I started from Behind Enemy Lines in the belly of the Beast I didn't know anything so if you break success down to its microscopic level sometimes you have to do that every failure is a success if you learn from it like that is extremely important so after 23 years I get free every day I was in prison everything I was doing I would I would say to myself this is my preparation ground you know this is this is this is I'm preparing for something in the future and I came home the world open up I got a cell phone and the interneto say I say you just download I've been learning I I I just to give you kind of like you know a hint of some some of the things that I'm doing um I an entrepreneur I have started a dog training and boarding business called Dogs We Trust LLC yes it's very successful I have a team with me that helps helps as well and I'm approaching dog training and boarding from a a different angle because I I actually live with dogs in prison for like for over 10 years and I say live with them like there is a small sale the size of a bathroom with a bunk bed and a bunch of us were in a lawsuit because of the the sizes of prison sales so they said man guys we got these dogs we want to bring them to you but you guys have these lawsuits and a lot of us did the math like okay I'll sign my name off the off the math so they could bring the dog in the cell with us you know that was so it was such a great thing and so I I lived I got immersed completely in the culture and I understood dogs to to this day like on a on a cultural communication level I actually communicate with dogs I understand everything that saying and once you learn one they all say the same thing they do they do um so that's that's one thing I'm see a lot of y'all dog lovers y'all know what I'm talking about they're family um uh and and then in addition to that I'm an adviser for a suprior court judge down in cob County and I get to speak for my experience my legal background and my my situational back uh background my my history my environment in prison and what prison life is like I gu to speak to him as he sits in these trials and he has the ability to sentence people to death and also decide multi-million dollar cases and everything in between and so that's an extremely difficult job and he was a former prosecutor so he's he's he's learning and and and requires excuse me people to really speak into his space that have knowledge that he trusts and he and he trusts me um I have a son I'm married like like every day that we get our our routine together because you know getting married when you I just got out of prison trying to figure out things it's a lot you know you know I'm I'm I'm you know I'm a little rough and rugged cuz in the environment you know and if she's sweet and tender I had to I had to calm some of that down like you know so just so just you know being a part of society and being a good husband like my greatest I used to say this for years my greatest ambition was to be a good father and every day my son gets up he say hi Dad and if I don't say nothing hi Dad hi Dad like hi JJ like you know she's happy and just I'm connected with the people in my community and I make friends every day like every friend I make that's success to me you know so good so good so Maya this year women's basketball when to another Stratosphere right so but you have an interesting view on all that um can you kind of unpack how you see this kind of weird space between entertainment influence and then how you see yourself is this a therapy session yes okay we'll be here all day folks it'll be good welc to mayam Mo's therapy session my IR therapy session with Jeff I love it it's a process right like women's sports is still kind of a new thing in culture you know women haven't been uh had the the permission really to be Sports people in society and so that's a whole another conversation of you know women's place in culture the sport and entertainment industry in general for Humanity right we have this love of watching our teams and cheering and there's something about sports and that aspect of doing stuff together watching people work hard to try to achieve something great but then there's the industry that is just go go go go go go go which we know is not good for humans right so we've got also an aspect of Fame that we know there's some things that are not good about being super super Fame and celebrity and it's like dehumanizing in a way and there's it's kind of it's just weird right like there's good and bad it's messy and so I've been trying to process that um like stars are humans right I'm come from a land of stars but the story we're told about our stardom that's not like it's not real life like we're humans we have limits we need rest we need humility life doesn't revolve around us all the people saying yes to us that's not real life you don't always hear yes right you become a a spouse and a parent you learn that real quick and so I am in this this world of of of trying to navigate you know the good story you can use with influence and platform while not getting deceived into thinking your platform is real life it's that it's that balance of I want to make sure I'm living real life but when I do get a chance to have a platform and have a voice I want to be able to share something out of authenticity and being thoughtful of being helpful to who I'm speaking to so I think when it comes to platform you want to be able to have something to offer people that's thoughtful and helpful thinking about who you're talking to um and and then you know trying to be a voice into the sport and enter entertainment space of reminding the leaders of that world we're human beings we're human beings we're not products we're human beings we're human beings we're human beings let us not forget that that person you're talking trash to through the TV that's on the other team is a human being and the person that you're painting as the superhero they're a human being you're a human being and so let's not let that that Arena space that Arena mindset that Coliseum you know where Sports come from like they people um and so you know you might be able to interact and engage with people in the sport entertainment space space treat them like humans help them be human in these spaces if you have Partnerships with them and empower the people you're helping to make sure they feel like humans too that's good love so you're sitting in front of hundreds of nonprofit leaders and um spe specifically Jonathan I mean you have an incredible story of resilience these people are trying to address other injustices in in all the these communities and it's hard it sometimes it's hard to believe that you're making any difference you know you and so you have to keep going what what um what could you say to these nonprofit leaders uh to keep going today because they're probably tired they're probably exhausted they're burned out they don't have enough resources H how do you how do they keep going I would I would I would uh I would first ask you to narrow your your scope like sometimes you can there's so many injustices in the world so many things to get involved in so many people to help and you want to help every everybody but you it's just not possible so you want to be clear about your mission like what you're going to do and avoid Mission creep because it's going to come in there going to be people with all these new bright ideas that's going to pull you away from the mission like and you have to pull it back get on point and then man be prepared prepared for a fight sometimes sometimes it's going to be the fight of your life even to get an inch like the work that you're doing like if it was easy and profitable man big business would be doing it just just being honest with you sometimes you may go home and you may not be making a lot of money that's just the reality of it your staff may be complaining about the money that they're doing but keep this in your mind like think about where you're going and celebrate how far you've gone like literally take time if you have if you if you had the goal and the motivation to go get your 501c3 celebrate that if you have a website celebrate that if you have clear information and bullet points and all the information on there celebrate that you know what I'm saying for real yes man if you if you wake up in the morning celebrate that if you if you get someone to change their idea or their thought just by a little bit man celebrate that there's so many things that you can celebrate like sometimes the the the the ultimate goal of the nonprofit maybe 20 to 30 years out and you may just be preparing the ground for the Next Generation some of this work that you're doing doing is generational work like like some of these nonprofits the real successful they've been around 30 40 50 60 years you think you going to come in this conversation like a microwave done no no it's just not going to happen so don't don't get overwhelmed by how hard the work is like you can't eat a mountain in a day you just can't you got to chip at it little by little each day and before you know it you may have a whole side of the mountain chip to because you're chipping away every single day it's about SP small steps half steps not whole steps half steps in the right direction on the right path and I promise you you get there or your vision may get there with another crew you just lay the groundw work and get it going and you keep the momentum going that's so good Maya what's what's your next that's good what do you feel like your next Pursuit is is in this mission-minded work I know you have a a nonprofit you guys have a nonprofit together can you share a little bit about what you're working on next so our nonprofit is called win with Justice so like Jonathan was saying when I was first being exposed to mass incarceration and all the overwhelming you know reality of just prison reform and and and different things I was advised to pick a lane and run in it because there's so many lanes and you can't do all the lanes and so because I have a voice and a platform pick a lane where I can encourage people to do something tangible like vote and so prosecutorial reform was the lane I was encouraged to run in because prosecutors are so powerful in our justice system and I had never voted for a prosecutor I I want to go medals but I didn't know who my prosecutor was right so Slow Down Start to understand your local needs and then see what you can do about it and I could I could with Jonathan's help and his expertise start an Prophet to help encourage people this is how we focus on holding our prosecutors accountable who are really in charge of justice and empowering those who um do the hard work of being human- minded when they're making their decisions and so um our vision for wom with Justin just win with Justice is to continue to educate people uh continue to share powerful good stories we have a book that came out last year we took the time and all the things in these these early years of Jonathan's release we wrote a book it was a lot but it's it's so good and if you can get your hands on it and share it it's it's just super encouraging but we're we're in the process of sharing our story yeah we just put up there's a a link you can get the book I like being prepared celebrate that listen i' I read it when it came out and I read it the last two weeks in preparation for this and it will be worth all of your time and energy it will lift your spirit so I want to encourage you to get that book today for sure so that's what we're doing trying to build our home home uh he's doing renovations on the dog business to keep you know he's employing people in the community it's it's just we're doing a lot of life-giving things but just mainly trying to educate and um share our story and hopefully encourage people with some of the good things that are happening when we when we do some of the things that we've been talking about I love it listen do you all love Jonathan and Maya this is like can you join me and thanking them today please give them an arousing s o