The Athletic's Robert Mays on Deshaun Watson, Nick Chubb & the Cleveland Browns defense

We're gonna bring in our guest after a quick word from Fanduel. You guys have heard us talk a lot about Fanduel America's number one sports book and, well, we have something a little different for you guys today. Now through September 22nd, all fanduel customers can bet $5 and get a three week free trial of NFL Sunday ticket from youtube and youtube TV. Then with the youtube TV base plan, you'll be able to watch every regular season Sunday afternoon, out of market game. All you need is a Google account and a current form of payment and you can cancel anytime, just visit fanduel.com/u CS Ss to download America's number one sports book. And with that, we are thrilled to welcome on Robert Mays, the main host of the athletic football show to our program today. Robert, how you doing today? Thanks for joining us on the ultimate Cleveland sports show. Robert Ri They clearly can't hear us. I'm sorry about that. Oh, there we go. What's up, Robert? How are you doing? Thanks for joining us today. I'm happy to be here. I appreciate it. Robert. I, uh I gotta say that the Cubs hat in Cleveland is not going to go over. Well, I'm an award coming from a Cubs fan. I am a Cubs fan. That's true. But the rest of Cleveland, yeah, I got the exact same response when I was in Cleveland for training camp. Unfortunately. So I come by as a Chicagoan. I come by it honestly and, and it all for the most part, it's really just so I don't have to worry about my hair if that makes you feel any better about it. Do you, are you with me? The Jed Hoyer should be fired right now. There's such a forgettable team, like there's just such, so little excitement about like what they've done and where they're going, but I, I would not necessarily mind a little bit of a revamp. No. Would you trade Dan V Swanson for his wife right now? I don't know. Can she play or is it, or is it more just like a vibes thing? Probably better than him? I mean, that contract is a total waste. I guess I would, I would be open to still. I, I, I'll take a look at the books and we'll figure it out, but I'm open to it. All right, Robert, let's get the, the football before we piss off the rest of the fans. Um We were just having a conversation obviously this, it's kind of silly right now, but I, I was making the point that as crazy as it would be from a salary cap standpoint that I, I, in my opinion, and I, I obviously want your take on this. I, I have always felt that D Prescott's the most underrated quarterback in the NFL. I, I know he hasn't had great playoff success. I don't think, I don't think a lot of that's his fault. Uh, I feel like people crap on him more than any other good quarterback in the league. And I said that if Watson can't turn it around this year, even though you still owe him for a couple of years. And if d doesn't resign in Dallas that if I'm the Browns with Miles Garrett having only a couple of years left and Joe Baton and Wyatt Teller and Nick job and Emari Cooper, although I don't know if am Mario will be here next year, I would go all in and do whatever I had to, to get that next year. If Watson flops again this year, crazy. Not crazy. What do you say? I don't think it's crazy on a football level. I think the finances of it just become a little bit difficult to pull out. I mean, even this team that has done, I mean, an admirable job of navigating around all of this and just the way that they've moved money around and the cash that they've spent, I mean, if they move on from Watson next year, I think he has like 100 and $10 million dead cap hit, even if it's like a post June 1st thing. So I, I just don't think that there's any reasonable scenario where they can move on from Watson after this season and be able to field a team. So, yeah, in a vacuum. Absolutely. I would do that because I think that this team with that Prescott, if they weren't the Super Bowl favorite, they'd probably be in the top three or four. But I just don't think there's any reasonable path for that to happen. Robert, when you look at this offense, you know, obviously they went out and got Jerry Judy and obviously, Nick Chubb is coming off of an injury. When you look at this offense, they've been kind of a middle of the pack team is getting Ken Dorsey in here and helping with that offense, the answer to unlocking this offense to making them become maybe a top 10 offense or do you think that it's just gonna crash and burn? It's a great question. I mean, I think that part of the reason that they have struggled at times over the last couple of years beyond some of the issues with the quarterback play is, you know, there's, they've been kind of put in a small box in terms of what they did. Well, Nick Chubb was really the engine of this team and then they did complimentary things off of that, whether it was the play action game, some of the things they did in the screen game. And I think the move to Kan Dosey is two fold. It's an, a chance and a, and a pursuit of trying to get the best version of Deshaun Watson because you're likely going to be moving to an offense that is a little bit more spread out. Lives in the shotgun. A lot of the things and a lot of the ideas that Ken did when he was in Buffalo and two, I think it's about diversifying what your passing game looks like. You know, when this team could just get under center and just run play action, deep shots over, over and over again, it looked beautiful, but in the NFL today, it's just hard to live like that. So I think that transitioning to more of a modern diversified drop back game, the ceiling for that and the possibilities for that give this team options they haven't had in years past how quickly they take to that and what the acclamation process looks like. I think that becomes the biggest question for the quarterback and for the offense as a whole Robert, it's just been a weird preseason here. It's just been bizarre and that's the word I used at the start of the show, the stuff about Deshawn and whether or not he's gonna play in Seattle and he's got a sore arm. How does he have a sore arm? He's hardly throwing the ball over the last week, the offensive line is in Shambles, Jed Wills had arthroscopic surgery nine months ago and still isn't back just what's your overall feeling of the success rate and where this team is at right now? And do they have enough time to pull this thing together in time for the opener? I'm worried about it. I mean, I think it's hard not to be worried about it when you think about the way that Watson played when he was on the field last year. There's no way you can look at this in a sober way and just say, oh, yeah, I feel good about where the offense is headed. I feel good what he's going to with what he's going to provide and we haven't seen him play more than a handful of games in like three or four years years. So I just don't understand what the path for optimism is necessarily with the quarterback. And then I think that extends to what's going on with the offensive line. I mean, the fact that your two starting tackles still haven't been able to really practice for you and we're a few weeks away from the opener and, you know, we saw what happened to this team when they had to dig into some of the tackle depth last year and James Hudson is hurt too. Right. I mean, so it's just, again, some of the same issues that arose near the end of last season. It feels like they're chipping away at those again. So, if I were a Browns fan or I was somebody in that building, I would definitely have some trepidation about how this has gone in the month or so since they got back. Yeah. Stop it pretty. I mean, now, now general soreness for Deshaun Watson, you talked about the offensive line, they're banged up in terms of their tight end depth. Denzel Ward has a concussion. I mean, there's still a lot to like about this team on, on the defensive side of the ball, certainly. But yeah, it doesn't feel great heading into the start of the season having to play Dallas in week one. There's no doubt and, and let's say they're the best defense in the league last year. There were certain stats that you can look at that. They were historically good defense from the last 25 years. They were dominant for huge stretches of that season. That's not going to happen again. The history will tell you that's just not going to happen again and they know that they know that defense for the most part comes back to earth at least a little bit after you've had a season like they did last year. It's not crazy or insulting to suggest that this goes from being a borderline historically good defense to merely a defense that finishes somewhere in the top five. And if that happens, I'm just not sure how much optimism I have in where this offense can go for that group to pick up the slack. And what that, that means at the end of the road, that formula and that equation overall, where does that leave you? Where does that leave you in the AFC? It probably means that you're a competitive but not overly dangerous team. And when you consider all the money this team has spent all of the things that they've moved around and all of the talent that's on this roster, that's a kind of difficult thing to stomach as an end game. Robert, you mentioned the defense and on the athletic football show with Derek, you guys talked about the top 10 defenses entering next season. You guys, despite mentioning the fact that historically speaking, teams don't stay at the top of the defensive rankings, you guys both picked the Browns as your top defense for, uh, for 2024. So why would you make that selection despite what history tells you in terms of teams taking a step back after having a defensive season like the Browns did last year because every other good defense has lost pieces. You know, it's such a strange year. If you look at the best defenses in the league from last year, almost every single one of them has lost a major piece or important depth. You know, the Jets, I think are probably the team that's brought back the most important pieces from who they've been, but even they've chipped away at one of the things that's really made them great, which is that defensive front depth. Quinn Jefferson is now in Cleveland. Obviously John Franklin Myers is now in Denver and they've got guys, they, they've spent so high draft picks at that position. There's a chance they can refill it. But that's a question. Baltimore loses Mike mcdonald and several, several key defensive starters. So even if you're bullish on the Ravens defense, there are some question marks there. The Patriots defense had the guys to be a really, really good unit heading into this season. They traded Matt Judon, they traded their best pass rusher. So I think every other team has so many question marks that when you look at it from afar, you think? All right, even if the Browns take a step back, they brought back every key piece of this. They got better in some areas again, like Quinn Jefferson is still like a pretty decent player. They've got depth in important areas so they can regress and still be the best defense in the league. But I also think it's important to acknowledge that it's often more volatile than that and going from what they were to third or fourth, that's what history will tell us normally happens. I still think they might be the safest bet though, Robert, you know, we was talking earlier about Denzel War suffering his fifth concussion and a guy that's been having a really good training camp. Uh Is Martin Emerson if he, do you see him if Denzel isn't able to go this season because of concussions? Can you see Martin Emerson being a true CB one? Yeah, potentially. I mean, I think that the way that this team is looking at it, it doesn't really matter what the hierarchy is. I think it's more about having two guys on the outside that consistently can play a man coverage. So even if Emerson is a guy who could potentially step into that role, I think the downgrade you're going to have at your second outside cornerback spot that becomes the more pressing issue rather than whether Martin Emerson is up for kind of that distinguished that distinction within this defense. It's a fair point, Robert. Um When you look at the division right now, how, how do you, you know, obviously we talked about the concerns on the Browns, the divisions loaded. How do you see the division uh stacking up right now? You the most likely order of finish if you had to pick it right now, if I had to pick it right now, I'd still probably say the Ravens first, the Bengals second, probably the Browns third and then the Steelers fourth. I just think that the Steelers have enough holes at other areas of the roster. If you look at the pass catchers that, that team has, you know, some of the question marks on defense nickel corner, second safety, uh, you know, linebacker, they've made some changes, but we'll see how fast it all comes together and then, you know, we still have real questions about what that offense is going to look like and who the quarterback is with the Bengals. I think the defense still has question marks, but the offense has a chance to be really, really good again, like they have their full stable of guys back. And if it's a top five offense, I trust that unit to kind of lift them even if they have some stops and starts on defense and even with some of the losses for Baltimore, I still think that that is a really good team on both sides of the ball kind of along those lines. Uh One of the guys on the panel yesterday, Earl is a huge Browns fan and he asked the question, what is more likely the Chiefs win a third consecutive Super Bowl or the Browns win the division? I said the Chiefs winning a third consecutive Super Bowl is more likely than the Browns winning the division. But I'm curious what you think? I think that might be true. I think the main barrier to that is just that it's really, really, really hard to win the Super Bowl. But right now, I think that the Chiefs pretty clearly should be the favorites to win the Super Bowl again, if you think about what they brought back on defense, I mean, this is an offense that was outside the top 10 and a lot of metrics last year and they still won the Super Bowl. Like that was supposed to be their off year. I think that they're going to be better on both sides of the ball this year than they've been over the last couple. And I think that there is a path forward for the Browns, right, if you can get, if Deshaun Watson can be the 20th best quarterback in the NFL this year and the offensive line gets back healthy, there is absolutely a path forward for this Browns team to win 11 and 12 games. And if the Bengals defense doesn't come together and if the Ravens do take a step back on defense, there's a path forward for them in the division, but I think it is more narrow than Browns fans probably want to think. And I would say it's right there with the Chiefs ability to win the Super Bowl. That is depressing though, Robert, you said the sea being the 20th best quarterback as if that was a, that's a high bar to get to and I get, I get what the Browns gave up. A ton of draft picks and a ton of Baker Mayfield was the 20th best quarter. He was better than 20 he was better than he was better than 20 I'm no Baker. He wasn not over a four year. He was around 20. He was in the middle of the pack 20 years. It's not two teams that I have a question for you guys if you dropped 2023 Baker Mayfield onto the 2024 Browns and I can promise you that you got at least 13 games out of Jed Wills and Jack Conklin. What do you think that their record would be? I think they have a, a good record and they'd lose in the first round of the playoffs. That's probably fair. But I, I think that they, they, this team finished with like a top half of the league offense this year and which I think they could potentially do with last year's version of Baker Mayfield. And the defense was as good as we think it would be. That's a much better team than whatever they've gotten out of Deshaun Watson over the last couple of years. That's fair. 20th is a miracle compared to the way he's played over the last two years. That's fair. Robert. And, and, but the truth and Baker stunk the year before though, like he's one year, good, one year bad. We'll see what he is this year. The truth is they didn't think Baker was good enough at the position. I agree. I don't think you can win. I think in 1987 you could win with a quarterback like Baker Mayfield with the Ravens defense in the early two thousands. Maybe even that last great Seahawks defense. We haven't seen a defense that good. I don't know if we're ever going to see a defense to that caliber anymore. I don't think the Browns were at that level last year and I don't think you can win with an average quarterback and that's what I think Baker is, that's just my thoughts on it. But what do you think? I think that you can win with an average quarterback if you're paying him on a rookie salary and if you have everything else in place and obviously everything else is easier to put in place when you have the money to spend. But I, I think that the, I think the Lions could win a Super Bowl with Jared Goff as their quarterback right now. Like I do think that that is possible, but you have to have a top five play call. You have to have the best offensive line in the league. You have to have pass catchers who even after its extension, I on Rasa Brown is still making pennies compared to what he deserves on the open market. A guy like Sam La Porto, like everything else has to fall in line. The problem with the Browns is they're paying their quarterback $62 million against the cap and you're hoping that he's an average player. Yeah, that's just a really difficult world to live in. I, I hear what you say. I personally think Jared Goff is a little better than that. Like, I think Jared Goff is better than Baker Mayfield. Don't you agree? I agree with that. I absolutely agree with that. But I think that Jared Goff in the best case scenario is still probably like the 13th or 14th, best score back in the day to win it to go all the way with a guy like that. You need so many things to fall in place because he's somebody like Purdy is a different example. He's making a million dollars like the team that you can surround around Bach Purdy. And I honestly think that Kyle Shanahan is almost like, like he said, like the qualifier there is like, you almost have to ignore it. Like if Kyle Shanahan is involved with the equation, the equation probably doesn't apply to anyone else. But I do think the Lions with golf right now is probably like the best path forward for that sort of team. What do you think about Nick Chubb Robert? And it doesn't sound like you're super high in Deshaun Watson. But are you confident Nick Chubb can coming off that knee injury? Get back to at least 80% of the Nick Chub we had seen in the last few years when I was there, I was there probably two weeks ago, 2.5 weeks ago and I was asking about the Nick Chubb timeline and the line that was given to me, which I think is totally fair if anybody can come back from that quicker than he should and better than he should. It's Nick Chubb. I mean that the man is a cyborg, like I'm not going to bet against him in any way, shape or form and I want him to come back at that clip and as a version of the player that we've seen in the past because he's truly one of the most exciting players in the league. So if I had to bet on it right now, I'd probably bet that we do see 80% of Nick Chub at some point this season. But that might be, that might just be me wishing that, that we eventually get there because of how much I love Nick Chub. Right. Right. You mentioned the, the Jets defense before, I'm curious there. See everybody seems to be super high on the Jets except for me because I think Aaron Rodgers at 41. Is he 41 or 40 coming off the to right now. Right. So 40 coming off a torn achilles and let's face it. His last year in Green Bay, he wasn't special anymore. He was still good, but he wasn't Aaron Rodgers his last year there. I just don't see how people can be that confident. I in, in Aaron Rodgers playing at a high enough level, even though I like obviously their defense is great. I, I love their running back. I love their top receiver. I I just don't buy into the Jets like everybody else does. Uh, what do you got? What do you think about that? I think there's still plenty of reasons to be concerned and there are plenty of reasons to have doubt. I mean, the offensive line should be better but, you know, it's a group that has been often injured over the past couple of years, even though they do have more depth there with fou and I think that there is a path to them being a decent offensive line for the first time in a while. The Rogers stuff. I think a lot of people who are seeing this optimistically and giving this a chance to succeed are going to point back to the conversations that we were having about Aaron Rodgers in 2018, go back and read about people, what people were writing about Aaron Rodgers in like 2018 and the fact that he was done, he was washed and then Matt Lalo comes in, he becomes engaged again and he wins two mvps. So that's the argument in favor of the Aaron Rodgers experiment with the Jets Robert. He was 34. Totally, it's totally fair. And I, I think going back and I've had some concerns, we've had similar conversations about this. How good was he? Actually the last time that we saw him in Green Bay and my stance on this is that physically, he was still making all the throws he was still capable of doing and putting the ball where he wanted to in the same way he had in years past what it looked like. His last year in Green Bay is that he was over it. There was a young receiving court Devante Adams was gone. I think that the relationship he had with Matt Lalo kind of run its course. So there's a chance and this is what you have to be hoping for. If you're the Jets, that if he is engaged again, the physical skill set hasn't diminished enough where you can get a guy who's 80% of what he was when he won those MVP si think that's more narrow than Jets fans probably want to believe. But I do think that there is a path for that happen, Rob Robert, you know, you, uh you got the Bears helmet behind you and, uh I gotta ask you about this Caleb Williams thing or is that, are you excited about the plays that he made or do you think that if Justin Fields was still there, he could have done better. I definitely am excited about the plays that he made. I mean, the scramble for a touchdown like that's whatever like that Justin Fields is going to do that. Justin Fields has done that. The, the biggest difference to me and people I think are going to paint them with similar brushes in terms of how long they hold on to the ball, you know, the tendency to potentially take sacks as we get into the season. The the difference, the key difference in my mind is that Justin Fields, while a physically talented player was never a creative player, Justin Fields was robotic in the pocket. His throwing motion is robotic. He is not a creative player from the pocket arm angles, moving around the pocket, changing arm slots throwing off platform. Those are things that Justin Fields did not do. Well. That is the selling point with Caleb Williams. So the running around stuff that I don't really care about, but some of the things he can do in terms of creative throwing and creative playmaking. That is an element of his game that Justin Fields never had. And that's why I think that that distinction is important. Robert, great, great stuff, great insight. Check out the uh athletics football podcast. Uh We appreciate you taking the time. Absolutely guys, anytime thanks, Robert Mays. Uh He's, he's really good, very good. And his podcast, the athletic football show we had Derek Clason on a couple of weeks ago, who's his co-host, they come out two or three times a week, definitely worth your, uh worth your time if you get a chance to listen and we appreciate Robert for taking some time to join us here. The ultimately