Trochilidine Vigor - Elon Relents, Internet Archive Loses, Pennies

it's time for twig this week in Google Paris Martino is here Jeff Jarvis is here coming up the internet archive loses in court I'm sorry to say Elon Musk backs down in Brazil and why we can never get rid of pennies it's all coming up next on twig podcasts you love from people you trust this is Twi this is Twig this week in Google episode 784 recorded September 4th 2024 triline Vigor it's time for twig this week in Google to show we get together with some of my favorite people and talk about some of your favorite subjects none of which have anything to do with Google uh joining us right now Mr Dr Professor not a doctor not a doctor Jeff jvis formerly the town KN director of the Town KN Center for entrepreneurial journalism at the City University of New York at the Newark Graduate School of Journalism in the city over New York has uh has the time come for you to reveal no no still waiting fory yep well we we'll know he'll be gainfully employed but if he's not he's writing like a I I am writing about the linotype I'm I'm right now talking about the making of matrices God and this is this is a mold for a letter and that's Paris Martino figting interest she very interes that's her job she writes for the report I'll bring you matrices when when we see you in New York you'll be I can't wait we're gonna have lunch writes for theinformation docomo weekend which we love that's the actually my weekly read the information so nice to see you lovely to see you as well and we will be all having lunch on Friday I'm so excited I'm coming out to New York tomorrow jet bluing it to New York and I wore as you know my New York shirt to celebrate with the sombreros on it that's a important to represent the culture YK these days uh we were we're also doing a Meetup and I hope it doesn't rain but there there is rain in the forecast at Bri Park see here Saturday it's all right if it rains we can shelter and something if it rains you can lead a crowd of how many dozens of people into a bar 70% yeah it's going up it was 66 yesterday so any any who anywh who uh after that that event will be Briant Park 3: to 5:00 P p.m. rain or shine and then after that a photo walk with Joe from Joe Joe Esposito from our um Club he's a street photographer in New York City and uh I think we're going to get a great tour we're going to see some really amazing stuff so taking being inside taking pictures of the subway and the and the train terminal and Oculus I it'll be fun to do inside stuff Grand Central Station yeah we'll do a lot of stuff inside I think it's a different Joe but yes oh not Jo wrong Joe Oh I thought my Jo does I to say Joe's everywhere joez has the stickers it's Joe and I can't remember his last name anyway I I'm pretty sure I'll know him when I see him uh all right so breaking news just happened I'm sad to say uh earlier today uh federal court wrote uh rejected the uh internet um archives uh appeal of the decision to that it that its library was uh illegal the Publishers has shet at company one is it the whole thing that's that's got or just that practice they did of giving away the books from The Verge the internet archive has lost its appeal to fight in a fight to lend out scann ebooks without the approval of Publishers second Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that permitting the internet archives Digital Library the whole thing would quote allow for widescale copying that deprives creators of compensation and diminishes the incentive to produce new works this is wrong in every respect God it's so wrong penguin Random House Wy and Harper Collins sued IIA over its claims the digital library constitutes willful digital piracy on an industrial scale the court said a digital library is not the same as a lending library as a book Library which is crazy because the way that it works is exactly like a real Library I go and try and check out a book I have it for three hours and then it goes away yeah what's it the doctor or first what's it called when you buy something that you have a right same first refusal no no no no resale name for I know what you're talking about uh here's what one other thing the court wrote on on the one hand ebook licensing fees May impose a burden on libraries and reduce access to creative work on the other hand authors have a right to be compensated in connection with the copying and distribution of their original Creations Congress balanced those competing planes claims upon the public interest in the Copyright Act we must up hold that balance here uh I think it was John scaly who wrote on Blue Sky saying I love libraries every time they buy the books they lend you yep and there's a good chance you may read a book and go I want to buy more of this author's works right they're good for authors yes and a digital library is just as good as a regular library in fact the future of libraries is obviously digital uh does the court want all libraries to stay you know maybe we should get papyruses they'd be much more uh effective did they want us to stay in the in the Dark Ages or do can we enter the new era with the same controls by the way you have limited lending you have to buy copies of the books right the one thing the internet archive does not do is buy uh the digital copies of the books they buy the books and scan them um there is a petition I don't know if a petition makes much difference will they appeal they could it is the you know it's only the second is the one over that circuit um but it's expensive you know I don't this's a chance to donate to the internet archive yeah they do great work I I donate monthly um and I really this is very disappointing I think there's all kinds of of works that I need for research I mean old stuff uh about the linotype right now and uh a lot of it I can find on the internet archive and I have to follow their rules and do what they say and you know but so their Digital Library I guess is gone uh I here's a couple of things we should get Corey do on one of the things he says is look Publishers don't like libraries period of any kind they can't get rid of the Ben Franklin style book Library yet but they're going to stop any attempt to bring libraries into the 21st century and uh he say the Google right scanning which they lost right they lost to Google MH uh I'm looking I don't see a statement yet for the internet Arch from the internet archive but that story just broke brand new uh it's a big copyright case I think Kathy gallis would probably have something to say oh yeah don't you Bonito maybe send her a note see if she wants to pop in to yell notably the appeal court ruling this is from wired rejects the internet archives argument that its lending practices were shielded by fair use calling it unpersuasive I think it's worth noting here that this specifically I don't think it refers to all of the internet archives Online Library it is specifically concerning their National Emergency Library a program that started during the pandemic to allow kind of wider access to 1.3 million yeah if that's all and previously uh you know those books had only been allowed to be checked out one at a time but under this new program uh multiple people could borrow it at once yeah so that that's so important Baris asister to what exactly did we lose because if if that's all we lost was that emergency program not a big as I remember so the internet archive started the National Emergency Library during covid in March 2020 and suspend that was one where you had an unlimited number of books and all that stuff they suspended that after covid kind of after they got sued and got sued but they still offer offer a digital library as I understand it the the sticking point from the Publishers point of view was not that they had a digital library they wanted the Publishers to use the S the um internet archive to use the system the Publishers had set up where they would buy ebooks and use uh technology to protect the ebook instead they were buying B DRM problem it was a DRM problem they were buying books and scanning them maybe it is maybe it's just a DRM issue this is from Tech crunch um the Publishers which already had an uneasy relationship with both the internet archive and the digital book lending community in general soon soon after the program uh went in live in June 2020 the Publishers contended that going from single user borrowing to Limitless borrowing essentially turned the system from a notional Library into an unvarnished act of piracy for its part internet archive asserted that the use of books fell into the fair use Doctrine and the removal of limits was done in the public interest furthermore as a nonprofit organization the internet archive could have no uh like monetary or financial motivation and the courts in this case disagreed actually though the courts did acknowledge that internet archive was a nonprofit organization and that was perhaps the one little bright light in this whole thing I still don't know what is actually forbidden going forward that's what's what I believe forbid is forbidden going forward is multi-user lending they can't lend is you cannot have your scan of a physical book and lend that out to all three of us at once only one person can you do it once at a time I think so I don't think so I don't think so internet archive uh statement from the director of Library Services Chris Freeland said in today's opinion about the internet archives digital lending of books that are available electronically elsewhere we're reviewing the opinion will continue to defend the rights of libraries to own lend and preserve books uh the author's Alliance Dave Hansen executive director authors are researchers authors are readers ia's Digital Library helps those authors create new works and supports their interests in seeing their Works be read this ruling May benefit the bottom line of the largest Publishers and most prominent authors but for most it will end up harming more than it will help this is the important Point copyright does not benefit authors Cory doctor has said this again and again it it benefits the owners the beginning it was not it was not the authors who wanted it it was the Publishers and the book sellers the Publishers the internet archives legal woes are not over the music labels also sued over a music digitization project I mean we knew that the internet archive uh I mean I've talked to Brewster kale the founder and I you know I said what about copyright he said we'll worry about that when the time comes but we think it's more important to start saving stuff now if we wait till we get a clar Clarity on that issue we'll never copy anything and we think it's really important that we save everything for future because you know websites don't they come and go I think it's fine that they've extended this to recordings to books I think it's they're doing a very important work of digital preservation pretty cool I'm reading I'm looking at the uh decision from the second circuit right now and I'm scrolling down and then I suddenly see the named Katherine R Gillis oh yeah she had an amus brief yeah she did for the copia foundation which is Tech dirt's lobbying arm I don't see a story yet on te unlike other blogs there than here is a um I'm going through in last August the internet archive posted a what this decision means for our library I assume the same thing still stands because they lost in23 and this is an appeal of that they see the lawsuit only concerns concerns our book lending program uh the injunction clarifies that Publishers are going to notify us when their commercially available books are available on the internet archive and we will expeditiously remove them from lending um they also got an order from the judge agreeing with the internet archives request that this injunction should only cover Books available in electronic format from Publishers not their full catalog of books and prints that's actually good that's because there's a lot of old books researcher I really need it doesn't significantly impact our other Library Services the internet archive may still digitize books for preservation purposes and may still provide access to our digital collections in a number of ways including through inter Library loan making accessible formats available to people with qualified print disabilities we may continue to display short portions of books as is consistent with fair use um the injunction does not affect lending outof print books and the internet archive will still make millions of public domain Texs available to the public without restriction I think basically what is happening here is Publishers are saying for books that we sell an ebook version of you cannot digitize the print version and make that accessible to people which sucks but it is not as which is every book since yeah 20 years yeah and they'll do it put for ebook just for the sake of protecting it in this case the larger issue and I want to get Kathy GIS to explain this is a copyright issue that what they were doing was not viewed as uh fair use right that's what it says the first page yeah and so that's I mean that this is really the the grander affects more than just the uh internet archive it the judge ruled that scanning the book and lending it but scanning is the issue is not a transformative fair use that was the internet archives library that it was transformative it works like a traditional Library did not violate copyright law the judge said because the digital copies do not provide criticis ISM commentary or information about The Originals or alter the works it's not transformative it's the court concluded that ia's use of Publishers books was not transformative so they don't have page 48 of the decision here not only is ia's free digital library likely italicized to serve as a substitute for The Originals the Undisputed evidence suggests it is intended italicized to achieve that exact result IIA copies The Works in full and makes those copies available to the public in their iry it does not do this to achieve a transformative secondary purpose but to supplant The Originals it's also to expand the originals to give them more audience not trying to put these guys out of business and they buy these books just like a library buys the books it lends they're not trying to supplant the Publishers as schaly pointed out this not only do I sell a copy or more because they set they buy a new copy for every three or something like that IIA itself advertises digital books as a free alternative to Publishers print and ebooks parenthesis quoting the open libraries project ensures libraries will not have to buy the same content over and over simply because of a change in a format ah yeah so maybe yeah I mean I guess it undermines the Publishers right to make money I mean and I also argue I guess I get the reason why Publishers are doing this is because they don't want to lose even an inch but I think it's a stretch to say that it's it's going to significantly impact your bottom line of print scan of this being available on the internet Library most people who want to read an ebook are going to read an ebook they're not going to read a PDF scan of a book we've been through this fight before with the music uh music the music industry for years held it you know Napster and others uh reduced their profits and they were never able to demonstrate it in fact back to music it was the I write about this in in books themselves that um when more books were available online through archives there were greater sales of them it's pretty obvious and that's what happened and let me say for the record my publisher of my next book is hasette and they ain't doing this in my interest I'm not going to get one penny because of this decision not one um this is for their purposes okay all right that's just one of many big stories we're going to cover in today's Blockbuster Edition of this week in Google that was excitable that was excitable now now now let's see it let's see what follow let's go to Brazil yeah let's see where the coffee they put coffee and the coffee in Brazil uh Brazil as you know has blocked X after musk ignored court orders kind of like I guess what happened in France with Pavel durov and Telegram so the Supreme Court which has now all weighed in on a single judge's uh order and said yeah we agree has uh has blocked X and when uh starlink did not block X as other internet service providers were supposed to do they started uh putting uh holds on starlinks assets in Brazil then Elon caved and said okay okay okay we'll block X on starlink as well couple interesting angles there is one has advised his employees in other companies to get out of Brazil yeah he this all started when he closed the office in Brazil they don't have after the judge threaten arrests for ignoring his orders so uh uh Twitter lost by one count 40 million daily active users you know who gain Brazil blue sky blue sky 2 million like that and man are they smug yeah they should be no they shouldn't I went I went to Blue see what and every Everybody it wasn't everybody but a number of people were very smug about this and kind of dissing The Others you're telling people on the internet are smug intern are being insufferable online wow he found the place where they exist we didn't think they were there I can't believe uh the judge said any person in Brazil who tried to use x with a VPN would be find almost 90 or sorry $9,000 a day froze the finances of starlink to try to collect $3 million in fines by the way this comes down to I might defend Elon here because it comes down to I know it hurts doesn't it yeah it does it's painful but it comes down to the judge in Brazil ordering X to take accounts down yeah and uh the account well as you know why they want the accounts down well it's probably politic claiming disinformation basically yeah but you know Define thisinformation these days when you got a political flight like they have in Brazil according to the times musk and the Justice have been sparring for months musk says justice Moray is illegally censoring conservative voices Justice Moray says musk is illegally obstructing his work to clean up the Brazilian internet I always get nervous when I hear the words clean up the internet the internet is disgusting you're never going to clean it and as you know president why we love it that's why we love it yeah who was voted out of in off out of office ruled ineligible to run he and his followers have used x uh to build up support for his return uh the uh judge morice is leading investigations into bullaro and uh and in as part of that he wants to block more than a 100 social media accounts associated with right-wing pundits podcasters and federal lawmakers who in some cases have questioned bolsonaro's election loss so if these were uh election deniers in the United States see no no we're protected here no no court could order musk to take take down an account of election denier on X right right but in Brazil they did and now look musk says he's a PR speech absolute he's not just try to say cisgender on Twitter and you'll know uh but in this case he's he's defending the rights of of these uh uh of the of the political opposition to to to tweet musk has called Mr morce the Justice a dictator and posted dozens of times about the judge on X accusing him of silencing conservative voices you know I hate it when they use word conservative bonaro is not a conservative all all these words are meaningless now religious is is meaningless now yeah um right and left are meaningless yeah but musk when you know I mean I think musk does have shareholders so not on X but on starlink SpaceX for sure and Tesla and Tesla so I think when when it when they started to freeze the funds of SpaceX that got his attention you know what's interesting Leo is is is in one hand I'm upset and nervous about all that we count on musk for look at Ukraine oh I know you and starlink and all that right look at yes I rely on Elon Musk I I did the whole show from starlink yesterday I'm doing it now from the allamerican Comcast who that we all know in love it's just internet service provider they're all horrific right um but there's also you know the poor astronauts in space now depend upon him for their lives you know it's just too much dep but Navy a big deal with SpaceX for Starling yes yes all of which is very nerve making on the other hand it's interesting to see that musk himself is vulnerable by having so many tentacles there were so many ways to go after him in Brazil yeah but in ways that we I don't think we are we wouldn't do a lot of countries would I mean and it's also interesting now that we're talking about this for the second time on the show second week in a row of companies effectively going or companies countries effectively going after the CEOs and Executives of tech companies who have refused to comply with local authorities or local judicial orders I wonder if this is kind of part of a bigger Trend we're going to see where you know social media execs are prom Tech execs are going to be barred from traveling to comp countries that they've pissed off right what is well there threats against uh uh Zuckerberg by are even in this country but I can't see Mark Zuckerberg being arrested for flying into America um presidential immunity um should anybody on Fifth Avenue uh no it could happen that's the point of it what is the saying I I disapprove of what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it uh the real test of of your supportive free speech is if you support the free speech of somebody with whom you vehemently disagree I vehemently disagree with banaro with Elon Musk uh and I suspect uh there's a few things that paval dorov has done that I would vehemently disagree with or support I don't know where Free Speech has to end it's at the point where it's harming people yes um yeah uh I mean at some point we should have on Jeff kov have you had him on because of section 230 oh God we should have him on the guy wrote that book The he wrote the 26 words that created the internet and then he wrote another book about uh he goes crazy when people try to do the fire in the theater thing because it's it's wrong and everybody screws it up yeah well in fact it's not accurate right exactly that's the point um Jeff is uh brilliant and very approachable in the liar in a crowded theater is his latest book I love it that's a good name great title great title um so it our our first amendment rights go back to Brandenburg versus Ohio 1969 uh that which held that unless speech is directed to inciting or producing producing imminent Lawless action is likely or to incite or produce such action it's protected you cannot punish speech unless it's going to it's it's aimed at inciting or producing imminent Lawless action and is likely to do so we could think of we could think of uh things in our recent history that are definitely that well that's the argument about feary 6th yeah but uh yeah I don't boy I don't know it's not enough to merely Advocate violence and the other issue here is that and I harp on this but it's important to remember that choice is speech too so that each of these platforms has the choice and should not be compelled to carry speech or compelled not to except when it is illegal right and there is illegal speech right well anyway way uh New York Times is on it uh I haven't seen that account in a while I know but you don't need they don't really it's not really it's not needed New York Times is on it they don't they're on it they don't there's no parody necessary of the New York Times telegram's Founders indictment thrusts encryption into the spotlight here we go but but it it does in a way right this is Mike Isaac and the sherff Frankle writing here's part of the problem we the French authorities aren't really very clear about what he did and didn't do but it sounds like what they didn't like is he didn't give them the keys the back door keys to encrypted speech um but it is also the case that he did not moderate very effectively clearly illegal and even worse awful reprehensible stuff on telegram so maybe that's all they're going after him for um they have they didn't go after signal right which is really Inc by the way Steve yesterday did a great bit uh quoting Matthew green the encryption from John's Hopkins guy we really respect uh about telegram's encryption in which he said there there it's not encrypted yeah it's not encrypted so it's I don't know though if that changes the fundamental question of should governments be able to get a back door into encryption uh signal which is truly encrypted effectively encrypted uh Apple's iMessage RCS from Google which which are effectively ended encrypted the problem and see point of this out the problem with telegram and the reason they might be more vulnerable is they have the keys to all the encryption so there telegram cannot claim that we can't see into those messages they can so that's interesting I didn't real changes thing and the other yeah it's not true end to end at least that was what Matthew green and Steve Gibson said yesterday of course dorov who is a real character has been going after signal and WhatsApp saying they the government has back doors into them but not into us I think it's quite the opposite to be honest with you it's unknown you know what's going on there uh he called uh telegram's secret chat feature which is hard to use takes it's four pages deep to turn it on and it is only on uh messages one: one it is not on group messages he called that secret chat feature quote the only popular method of communication that is verifiably private it's not verifiably private in fact it's highly unlikely that it is so I think that and the times says all this Mike Isaac says all this he knows that so uh it may be that it really isn't a test of encryption it's a test of of whether durov was willing to open up the server to people CU they know cuz telegram knows um exactly what's in those messages uh zacka a British barister at field Fisher who specializes in data and privacy issues quoted in the times telegram is one of the few services that is not end to end encrypted by default that could have been part of its downfall because everything's out in the open for everyone to see um will cathart had current head of WhatsApp I wish I could say it was a settled debate that more security is better I think encryption is still under threat in parts of the world that's for sure by the way Elon did get off this surprises don't ever don't believe that you got to finish that sentence don't breathe at that moment please and we'll be back after this word after this breaking news breaking news Elon got uh the courts beat a suit no I can't say that either uh he remember the he was promoting Dogecoin he but he was promoting in kind of a weird way here's one of the tweets baby Doge baby Doge uh he uh said that judges with this Tesla I know I went to law school and became a judge Tesla was they said he said Tesla would accept Dogecoin as payment didn't I don't think uh he had had a tweet that said one word Doge and and this the people who are suing were people who lost money investing in this meme Bitcoin saying Elon told us it'd be good the New York federal judge dismissed the claims Thursday finding that musk's statements were aspirational rather than factual and susceptible that's how I describe all of my tweets actually aspirational and further no reasonable investor could rely on them well right wait wait wait but he didn't say this is not Financial advice he doesn't have to say that if I you I don't think he if I if a guy in a in a Mexican sombrero shirt told you you should buy Leo coin actually you took that advice would I be liable this may seem like kind of a silly story but I bet it's going to have interesting uh implications as far as press goes because if you guys were one of my pet interests is um following the mem stock Cults through this day you know kind of the whole you are so Wonder weird going at these strange people God I want to avoid that's not weird that is fascinating I it's fascinating the whole thing oh it's crazy we all remember the big GameStop boom of whenever that was that is just the beginning of course there are still the GameStop Apes as they're called out there there are the people who are stumping for AMC and things like that the part that I'm fascinated by are the people who are still stumping for Bed Bath and Beyond even though their shares have been uh um nullified day and even when gam was it wasn't like didn't have much of a future the thing that has been happening in this community lately sometime in the last I don't know 6 months or so uh a guy who used to go by the I guess goes by the name of roaring Kitty who had set off the original GameStop uh meme bubble he had been basically not active online ever since the first market crash people assumed that he was just out there enjoying his you know riches or whatever he came back sometime within the last 6 months and the only thing his Twitter account posted was a photo it was like a meme image of a man sitting leaning forward which I guess had previously been shared by the GameStop Twitter account and GameStop shares as a result of him just tweeting this image no information about stock the GameStop shares went through the roof and a whole other boom and bust started I think he did a version of this one or two times and people online were kind of speculating oh this guy's clearly just trying to you know uh you know milk the all his tweets are memes they don't have any text they're just pictures and video but I bet what like the precedent from this Elon Musk case is going to be applied in this because many people online I mean I'm sure when when there's smoke there's fire in this case many people online were saying this could be Securities fraud you have all these you know foolish people who are buying into the stock thinking that their God roaring roaring Kitty has come back and is going to usher in this new age of um you know uh prosperity for these stocks and I'm sure once many of those people felt the burn and realized that didn't actually exists some of them are going to sue um but imagine that cour case this is this is like Q look at these cryptic tweets it's totally there's an UNO reverse card that's all yeah that's very cryptic right it's so fascinating guys it is like it is exactly like qinon the um it's better to not be explicit it's better to let people project their beliefs onto what you're posting right absolutely and this is currently I guess an area where this is currently playing out is with Ryan Cohen the CEO of gamestock of GameStop he uh I believe I'm not he's being involved in some sort of case about whether or not he pushed people to invest in Bed Bath and Beyond when the stock was crashing um and there was a really interesting transcript of his uh like deposition with 30 people he's like you know I was just ESP posting as they call it I was just just posting memes online but it's quite fascinating because the way that these communities interpret these tweets is like he knows exactly what he's doing he'll post a rocket ship emoji and people will go crazy and buy more GameStop or one of these other stocks there are at least two documentaries already on the GameStop thing there's a Netflix uh documentary called Eat the Rich and there's an MSNBC documentary and there's a new one in the in the works um what's fascinating is is Paris is that can you imagine the court if it was bad enough to have that Elon Musk tweet be a matter of a court case even if they found this guy's name and they found his address and they took him to task there's no way you could have a legal discussion about the implications made that people um themselves come to yeah it's amazing time in hands did you get involved in that at all did you invest anything no you know no but I do just find it sickeningly fascinating Paris I got I got to ask you though was an intervention here do you similarly are you similarly fascinated by crypto no oh thank God crypto is just I was worried there crypto's related though isn't it I mean crypto often has the I mean this is what we're talking about with Dogecoin people have these boom and bus Cycles I just think so much of it is that that it's a little it's a little less interesting to me I mean I'm particularly interested in the Bed Bath and Beyond they call them baggies bag holders um because it is such an interesting you have to be in such an interesting psychological state to have invested in first of all invested in stock for bed Beth and Beyond seen it gone bankrupt like see it filing for bankruptcy continued to buy more stock of a company that has filed for bankruptcy saw your shares get canceled because they went bankrupt and still believe that you are invested in Bed Bath and Beyond and that actually they they kind of their uh Galaxy brain version of this the whole qon conspiracy theory is that Ryan Cohen and a couple of other executives are going to combine all these companies into a super company uh potentially called Teddy that will involve uh GameStop Bed Bath and Beyond uh AMC a bunch of other stuff and it's just nonsense this is why this is why our political life is in such disarray it's the same kind of credulous hopeful wishful thinking whether it's um a meme Stock A cryptocurrency or a political figure there's a lot of this what is wrong with us does are you still in favor of the Hana erance theory that that we're all troubled looners and well no we're not all trouble loers I think there's actually I think that's I'm actually disturbed by all the talk from the Surgeon General and New York Times columnists that we have this epidemic of he needs to shut up uh yeah I agree I think I think it gets used overused but but I still do hold to Erin's theory that uh it's more about cornhouse to get in sociology here about not having any other Connections in the world there's no competing connections for you and so that makes you vulnerable as an individual to say oh I'll join this cult sure um child molesters in the pizza parlor yeah makes sense to me and that's how I'll join It Is by saying those things so that's that's a little different from loneliness per se you can be very lonely in a crowd as we said last week um yeah it is inherently an act of community that these people are doing they believe that it is f commun and their fellow community members against the world and it's also part of it as a like mental trick to where these people for some reason maybe feel like left out of larger discussion or that you know things haven't gone their way and by to these belief systems they get to believe that they are actually smarter than everybody else they understand some grand plan that is going on and it makes the world make sense in the case of the mem Stock People kind of the unifying theory of it is that uh there are all these large like Market maker type forces all these Financial companies that are out there shorting the stocks and really just out there trying to stick it to the little guy and for people who are living in an increasingly uh economically ter like uh turmoil world that sort of thinking would make sense and they're not wrong you can't win in a market that's controlled by computers that can operate in a in a millisecond and you can't so is it worse now than it was there have always been osyn is saying in our Discord there's there's always been this kind of thing's always been around but it used to be a small number of people and now it's they burned witches in the day yeah look at the Salem wit a classic example of kind of a spreading hysteria that these girls were witches and uh and horrible things happened but yeah and myology in America like American mythology is a lot of special boy stuff like there's always like the one special boy who's like the key to everything aler and everybody thinks that they're the special boy you know right that's Bonito uh Gonzalez our technical director editor and various Su who was raised in the Philippines under Marcos so has a very different perspective on uh on on life in the United States um yeah we we ver we talked about this uh on TWiT on Sunday uh when we were talking about Japan Japanese culture versus American culture uh Japanese culture is a collective society and ours is very much an individualistic society and maybe that's one of the things that although you've got crazy conspiracy theories in every culture I would imagine I don't think I don't think we're unique to them do you think Bonito under uh Marcos there were people in the Philippines who were you know looking to conspiracies and other things to understand and make sense of their world I mean I guess that's possible but a lot of what happened uh in the early 80s when that in the late 70s early 80s was um was like a brain drain really people fled so the smart people just got out yeah like every like your dad just got the hell out actually no my dad came back to yeah oh came back to the Philippines or came back to the United States no came back to the Philippines to fight back oh good for him yeah he was in a Kino that's why right yeah yeah what if I asked you this Bonito what do you think of the news site rappler oh it's great uh mariaa Mara is a treasure yeah I don't know that what's rappler talk about that well you can exp better oh it's a Philipine Filipino news site you've heard of Mara she won the she's a Noel Prize winner she got out of the country by dette when she went after him for all the drug stuff yeah but so why do you think the Philippines are is prone to see this is another question well see the Philippines like we are pretty similar actually pretty similar to America in political thinking and all this kind of stuff because I mean America was our last colonizer so like we have a lot of yeah uh you know similarities to American culture or like there's a lot of aspirations to be like American culture but what's with the strong men you'd think once a country had W it de it's w its Liberty and its democracy it wouldn't go back yeah I mean that has a lot to do with I mean same thing misinformation like that story has been retold now like the Marco story is now a different story like people believe something different now over there not necessarily everybody and not totally different but there are competing stories now of the of history and like that's not that's not those who do not remember history are destined to repeat it and you know we have another Marcos in in power now right and he seems to be like so far at least from what I've understand he's better than duterte yeah and he's been okay like okay you know which is a that's like that's like what your wife saying it's fine he's okay he's fine he's fine doing a lot of washing also of the of the past so and I always get nervous because these guys often come in as reformers uh and then get power then start to consolidate power then suddenly they're the bad guy yeah I mean that's true everywhere political families political oh I'm not just saying the Philippines it's everywhere absolutely absolutely all right let's take a little H break and on that bad note we'll talk about something happy I'll find it don't worry America must free itself from the tyranny of the penny and the times is on it we'll talk about that in just a little bit see how I tied that right in uh our show today brought to you by our fine friends at V vam we actually stopped covering ransomware attacks every week on security now because they're just so commonplace they're just all the time they're up 84% this year and I always wonder how do you how do you get burned by a ransomware 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the guest workor by automating your recovery plans and policies you have a recovery plan and policy right it's up to date right get realtime support from ransomware recovery experts should the worst happen it's V look I don't have to tell you data is the lifeblood of your business get data resilient with VH voua am go to vh.com to learn more I this it's just like I don't understand why you wouldn't we thank him so much for their support of this week in Google and we thank you for your support tell them when you when you go to vh.com say yeah we heard about it on twig be finally I've been talking we talked about uh monetary policy and bu metalization and the gold standard right last couple of weeks ago or last week and we we also talked about my father-in-law's mountain of mountain of pennies the times must be listening because this week no they hate listening to me they said you know that Jarvis once in a blue moon comes up with an interesting story this week in the New York Times magazine look at that mountain of pennies could be from your dad the penny may seem like a harmless coin says the New York Times and you have to dig through all these pennies for the next line but a few things symbolize our national dysfunction more than the inability to stop minting this worthless currency we spend $90 million a year minting pennies and the funny thing about pennies is they don't get back in circulation you don't spend pennies do you no you've got them in a jar somewhere in your closet in your Oh Katie Weaver is so good too the writer of this this is a great piece and she and she Nails it she says there's one reason and one reason only that we still have pennies everybody knows it's a waste of money that that mint doesn't need it no one needs pennies but the company that makes the zinc blanks that go inside of every penny and has made billions of dollars in federal money making those they're the only company the one company that makes them runs this page pennies. org Americans for common sense ACC conducts re search and provides information to Congress and the executive branch on the value and benefits of the penny there is no value there's no benefit the the penny is basically being printed minted goes into your pocket because you know you you buy something for $8.99 and you get a penny back then from your pocket into a jar something like 60 or 70% of all pennies mitted have disappeared they're going to Jeff's father-in-law they yes a conservative estimate says there are 240 billion pennies lying around in the United States about $724 for everybody living in the US all but let me ask two questions if they're minted and disappear isn't that good for the government because the government originally sells the pennies to the bank to sell to the store to give to us isn't that isn't that like is there some that's seniorage right I'm just saying for the government's interest they get they get extra money um it's like it's like how I have an expired metro card in New York no I'll tell you why there's still $5 on it and I'm not going the trouble getting it back so New York has my $5 I explained this to you last week this is called seniorage when you make more money selling the coin than it costs to make it the problem is it cost three cents to make a penny right they're netive -2 cents for every penny they sell it's reverse seniorage so it's clearly a money loser it's estimated that 2third of all the pennies made are out of circulation gone in fact I'm surprised in my in my basement right now yeah yeah I think it would be great if we just had quarters I think that would really make everything in my life God she's going overboard you she's killing the nickel and the dime needs nickel and dimes what we just need quarters you lose that great part of you know why you need quarters tell them need quarters you lose a whole verb I know why Paris needs quarters laundry yeah I remember when I was your age the the the constant battle to get more quarters so you could do your laundry I mean if I'm going to be honest right now I do not need quarters because only no the only laundr at near me closed down to be replaced by a highrise so I have to get my laundry um picked up and done for me which I mean is nice but I pay via credit card for that would this be a problem if the banks actually could take our pennies if we could give them $100 wor of pennies and give us $100 back Coin Star can do that yeah they take 20% or something better than nothing I think it's the coin star Lobby that's keeping pennies around here here's my other question what is that retail pricing so-called is you don't charge $9 you charge $88.99 and because we think it's $9 and so that penny is part of retail marketing there's tax on top of that so well I mean here's the thing then they only have to do 95 cents which will be a problem for companies if they have to lose out in those 4 cents but I think they'll survive let me ask you Paris how often do you actually pay cash for anything uh it depends depends I mean I try to Cas my wallet yeah I only carry around cash for tips everything else is credit card or touch to pay I don't buy things here's $5 give me $5 worth of gas Nobody Does that anymore I mean if I'm buying something that's like uh not a coffee but is under like $6 I want to pay for it in cash because I know a lot of local Merchants around here it ends up costing them more money to pay the credit card fee oh you're very my my grilled cheese black bean burrito at Taco Bell comes out to 532 and I pay cash Taco Bell Taco Bell you don't need to be doing that for them okay first of all you pay cash but you don't pay $532 you give them $6 or $10 you get I can break it and what happens to the coin I it goes in the middle part of my bill fold and I hate it I hate that it's there it makes it harder to close it it I will never see it again until it becomes too bulky that I have to do something about it and then I go to Starbucks though and I want to I tip in coins in Starbucks Ed Mo the's 38 direct 38th director from 2006 to 2011 says I went to Congress saying listen I'm losing 90 million dollar a year on pennies I said you guys need to pass a law forcing me to change it the mint knows it's a bad idea they can't stop Congress has to stop them Obama said when he was president it's a good metaphor for some of the larger problems of the US government it's very hard to get rid of things that don't work you need legislation and uh the problem is these guys at pennies. org are making sure that members of Congress want to preserve the penny so who owns that company what is the company that's a good question so let me find the company's called Artisan a r t ZN they're in Greenville Tennessee for 43 years Artisan has held contracts with the treasury Department to manufacture the zinc blanks because the penny is just zinc covered with a thin coat of copper to look like a penny that the mint stamps in 1 cent coins more than a billion in Revenue since 2008 for Artisan this company's lobbying efforts according to uh chowski who is that uh he worked at the mint I guess I have to I hate it when I have to go backwards in articles to figure out who jakowski is can they just put a link back to the first mention anyway uh this person I think a former mint director of The Mint or maybe PR for the mint said uh this company Artisan's lobbying efforts is the number one reason that corn coin reform bills a die in Congress here's the funny thing according to open secrets.org that tracks this since 2006 Artisan has only spent $3 million on coin related lobbying we don't we have the cheapest Congress money can buy it cost you nothing 3 million to make a billion I'm in so it was known as jardan Corp and it rebred the research to artism it was jardan Zinc products so yeah a lot of credit to Katie Weaver she writes for the magazine and Katie uh famously wrote one of my favorite New York Magazine pieces which is what is glitter she did you know what this is I think she's like you she goes deep on the things that nobody really thinks about we just accept as part of life you want okay here's an interesting fact about this you want you want to know where this company started Artisan where in a in a in a treasured American ball jars what jars The Ball mason jars that Grandma used to the ball because they were zinc uh tops oh this is such a fun fact Jeff in 1934 Brothers company managed the largest zinc strip Rolling Mill in the world creating new applications for the element along the way and the company structure was evolving as well a name change to Ball Corporation took place in 1969 two decades later Al Trista Corporation was formed comprised of three previous ball cor companies this entity became the nucleus of what became Jordan process Solutions a division of jardan Corp J by the way this is so brilliant so the bar Ball jar folks split into two different divisions jardan which makes the JS and AR I didn't even get that Artisan which ends with ZN or zinc which makes the lids Jes in May 2019 as Jordan zinc products was nearing its 50-year Mark jardan processed Solutions was purchased by one rock Capital Partners ah e oh no private Equity private Equity Firm was focused on creating value by investing in high potential Middle Market companies what are you reading from right now Jeff uh I'm reading from a Business Journal B journal.com uh the pr cities Virginia I will do that post it to the chat right now and uh yeah so it was I mean this was a feature company about how change comes to a half century so when AR on its pennies. org lobbying site is uh they have an FAQ of why we need pennies and they say poor people poor people use pennies did you know that rich people give them pennies and nothing more here kid H here's a penny go fetch me a turkey uh young and elderly and minorities use cash more frequently well I'll buy you I'll buy you that but but do they use pennies uh uh sociologists uh she by the way this is a well researched piece sociologist I consulted whose fieldwork examines the economic economics of American poverty said no carrying around bundles of hundreds of pennies to purchase a beverage doesn't seem feasible well when you're really pissed off at somebody and you lose a suit and you dump a whole truck worth of pennies on their driveway that's useful that is pretty good uh the other people who need these pennies they claim pennies. org claims are Charities the penny AIDS charities in raising hundreds of millions of dollars every year for important causes they're trying hard they're trying kti contacted the Leukemia and Lymphoma Society which Weller describes as relying significantly on small yet critical Penny contributions to inquire about its coin dependence Koker Powell the executive VP and chief Revenue officer said the society has discontinued physical coin collection programs and donations of spare change had slowed in recent decades now do stores in New York do the bodegas and so for still have the little thing at the front where it says give a penny take a penny yeah here there sometimes it seems like I see less of those fewer of those yeah yeah you don't you don't know you don't because we've given up the the pennies. org has won we take the pennies we put them in a bell jar in our basement then we sell them to Jeff's grandpa I will say I think the fun fact of the penny Monopoly company being an offshoot from the Bell jar company is my favorite genre of fun fact yeah that's the kind of thing out of that uh something I cite to people forever much like a similar fun fact which is do you guys know um uh he Ro flask or Oxo the kitchen goods company they are they are plus I believe the um same they're the same they're owned by the same company that also uh operates products like licensed Brands like vix honey well they're owned by this company called Helen of Troy get the red string out folks we connection because Helen of Troy is notable because the company went underwent a tax inversion where it in uh basically reorganized into a Bermuda company in 1993 uh it basically did such a um aggressive attempt at avoiding taxes that there are new tax laws in the US named after it called the Helen of Troy rules to I guess prohibit about people trying to uh get away from their tax liability and every single time I see a Hydro Flask or like a VI Vapor Rub or kit tool from not supposed to buy oo stuff anymore I no I I mean I still use Oxo stuff it's great but I just think it's very funny that they're owned by a company that did such a big tax aversion that there are rules based after it in the US they should call those the Oxo rules although the Helen of Troy rules is actually pretty pretty fun pretty good yeah you know what's amazing about these these these private Equity places is you try to search Google for one rock Capital Partners nothing next to nothing yeah oh that's a shell game because they keep changing comp yeah well search for Hell in a troy that's also hard what are you gonna find right wait let me I gotta ask you though like what if we do let's say we phase out the penny right and then you're at a store and something costs $10 and one cent what happens pay the cents you pay the five cents or are they losing one cent well that's the thing now we do round down don't we yeah do we the problem is what way well you to the closest on your taxes and stuff no you got a point buto because the problem is that fine you could only doe to the 5cent price but when tax sales taxes are a percentage you will end up with pennies and ex so someone's going to lose it's either us or it's going to be the corporations and the corporations aren't going to lose so I'm guessing that's why we have the this Wonder with you know cuz what Jeff was talking about earlier all these companies pric their products like $3.99 so you don't think about the fact it's four right it's not like they're going to are they going to price it at four or are they going to take that 4 Cent loss and price it at 3 going to be digital nobody's going to pay cash in 10 years nothing's going to be cash right yeah that's a very privileged position Leo oh Poco in our Discord says military bases overseas don't use pennies if the cost is one penny or two pennies on something they round down and if it's like three cents or 4 cents they round up same in Canada same in Australia they don't have pennies in Canada they outlawed them years ago right by the way they also don't have Coin Star machines Katie says since debuting in 1992 Coinstar has processed 1 trillion coins worth $67 billion doll of which they take 12 and a half% plus a service fee honestly I would have expected that to be higher the so the coins are trucked to a regional processing center what happens to them then where the coins go denomination I'm glad you asked most end up in inside enormous white cubes called ballistic bags many of which are distributed into locked cages designated by Banks when a ballistic bag of pennies there's a phrase you don't hear a lot is deposited into say a Bank of America cage Bank of America sends Coin Star an electronic deposit equal to the value of the coin Cube now let's say a store needs pennies it can call the bank to request a delivery the bank calls them up from the cube and has them sausag into penny rolls you've seen those when you were a kid I bet even you Paris when you were a kid did your parents say here roll these pennies yes yeah I'm not sure if it was pennies but a coin of some sort coin certainly yeah I loved my little bank that You' put a coin in it would and it would sort them out to the things and then you'd put them in the rolls anyway the rolled pennies are dumped into the apartment of a cash register door where they remain piled up until they're handed over as change in a cash transaction and then into your holder and then into your drawer and then into the Coin Star machine for the round trip so you might want to know that um one rock also created a major merger in healthy hydration in selling us plastic bottles with free water inside so Poland Spring Deer Park oh wait a minute the water's free you're you're buying the bottle yeah yeah you're buying the bottle cuz we can get water anywhere why what the hell what I'm paying for when I buy water at the buying the bottle yeah one rock.com portfolio and the gas it took for them to bring that bottle to I I do not buy bottled water I am so uh against bottled water look at this Mike my coffee is in a metal reusable thermos jar how many of those do you own reusable thermoses uh three or four this is a new one I just bought because I wanted an exact the size that of my coffee maker so I put under the coffee maker and it drips it right into that so that's nice 14 ounces of pine brewed freshly ground coffee from South Carolina right there private Equity they own petroplex a leading Pure Play provider of acid stimulation and remedial cementing Solutions in the peran Basin let's buy that they it's got you know you got to get your assets somewhere it's true geez it's not from a guy in the street the pandemic actually caused a coin star crisis because people didn't use coins right well there was already a coin shortage going into the pandemic and it was made worse obviously by the pandemic if I Coin Star deposits dropped by 60% at the start of the panic a pandemic which turned into a panic as a result s which rely on coin start to choreograph the Nationwide coin recirculation ballet such a good article receives 60% fewer coins than usual that's why you saw the coin shortage that's why interesting yep there wasn't a shortage of coins there were plenty of coins they were just sitting in jars yeah they weren't circulating basement cuz we were using Penn delivery of our groceries she she says Coin Star is practically the sole medium by which pennies churned out with trog TR triline Vigor I don't know that word triline wow this is this crocan Croc crocodilian Vigor t r o c h i l d Vigor wait a minute there's I gotta find out what that means let me look that up I can't even my Mac doesn't even know it doesn't have a definition crocodilian no T TR TR TR chili hold on again just look at it show my screen I've got it highlighted there it is t r o c Hine Vigor I by the mint migrate around the United States would you write a note to Katie do you know her would you write her a note saying what the hell an adjective well you g love this you can love this boy folks are we going down deeper and deeper in the red hole Tru and TR andine is an adjective that means relating to hummingbirds what it comes from the word tral day and the English suffix I'm the earliest known use of the word was in the 1880s proceedings of the Zoological Society now where the hell did she come up with that okay no it's a it's a it's a group of hummingbirds like a pack of wolves it's a chol of huming the pennies are churned out with triline Vigor by the mint and they migrate around the United States I think that's a stretch but anyway bird fast coming Bird yeah okay yeah she's be very proud it is the her story is the first Google reference for the word there are eight there are 18,000 Coin Star machines in the United States 92% of Americans live within five miles I figur there must be other ones but that's apparently kind of like dominate that's so interesting I didn't realize Coin Star was so interestingly should be a penny stock that you cause a meme for but you could start that results when I search the word tro chadine are either you know dictionary definitions or people tweeting about this article oh of course it is she got them I think you could start a a penny stock Rush here on Coinstar I think you could experiment with it yourself Coin Star does not do well in Minnesota it's O to the Ferocious commitment to Mid friend a disproportionate number of Minnesota Bank locations still handle coins for free you don't need a coin store uh this is such a good article TD Bank used to have was famous for having the machines they finally got rid of them yeah no Coin Star ended up this is this is this is an example of late stage capitalism but maybe it's where capitalism succeeds this company makes 12.5% plus 59 cents a transaction taking your pennies and giving them back to the banks so they can give them back to you what a business okay guess who owns Coin Star not private yes Apollo Global Management oh my god of course they do of course oh Paulo owns everything so the Canadians dumped pennies and nothing bad happened how come I still have pennies it got rid of the penny in 2013 because it cost 1.6 cents to produce and is essentially worthless they did not okay so this is maybe the way the way forward wait wait wait briefs aside Coin Star in 2013 rebranded to be outer wall Inc at that time it owned it had three separate components one was Eco ATM which I don't know what that is the other part coin star and the third part Redbox then when Apollo Global Management bought them they became three separate business entities Now red boxes owned by Chicken Soup for the Soul yeah but it's gone under now yeah that was a bad purchase by Chicken Soup for the Soul I'm not surprised I think if you name a company Chicken Soup for this Soul you're kind of probably not the best business person in the world okay one more thing how Coin Star ended up owning Red Bucks was in February uh 20 9 it bought all remaining shares of red box from McDonald's which I guess had previously McDonald's Had red boxes in franchises I think that's crazy I didn't realize that yeah we're truly down the rabbit hole now guys oh this is now a rat hole it's much deeper but it is very much the case that Americans and you've seen this as we've done this story our audience oh what are we going to do without pennies no rounding opponents point out that a disproportionate number of prices Bonito and in double nines so companies will make all the all the money with the rounding up the largest single transaction uh Coin Star has done was $133,000 in pennies from a Mana at Alabama I was so excited how much does that weigh I can tell you a lot if I went downstairs right now to get a box it really a box of pennies is very heavy actually we know this because it's right up at the front of the uh the article Katie does all the research you'd want to know and she tells us that uh $100 worth of pennies weighs over 55 pounds so for every $100 55 pounds how much money get a load of this pennies minted after 1983 weigh 2.5 grams each that's because of the minted between 1865 and 1982 weigh 3.11 G Copper's heavier pennies minted between 1859 and 1864 weighed 4767 gram each Jeff professor of biophysics at MIT is the creator of what is now called citizens to retire the US penny watch there are lots of problems in the world that are important public going go after that person they're going to they're going to they're going to do something awful to them Gore said but this is not one of them the cost of Penny production is the dearest cost is not the money spent manufacturing Distributing them but that the scent does the opposite of what currency is supposed to do facilitate transactions people think that because it exists and is used it means it's useful it's not is there a simple process to extract the Copper from these pennies there's no Copp not made of copper but there's some there's some you mostly you get a lot of bell jar lids here's a question for you in the old days if you're if your fuse went out you risked death by putting a penny that won't work with zinc now right no right which is good it's probably saved many people's lives actually well anyway Katie we well done great article interesting use of triodine which is weird it's funny that that so many people when I was a kid reporter in Chicago Tribune there were a bunch of writers there who who had a bet they each had a word they had to manage to get into that's fun a tribute article and I'll bet that's one of them the friend I knew this is going to be horrible don't Google it uh his word to get in and he managed it was smegma oh no oh no oh no yeah he managed to get it in I don't know how he maned to get no I think that was a perfect word to have that bet on is trick trick I think so too and good luck if we can I think we got to make it the title of the show just can you can you uh look up the pronunciation Leo do a PR yeah we got to figure because I can't do it as a title un that's I can no you can't how do you spell it tril aine Trill oh I can't even oh God it's playing an ad for me to listen to the pronunciation I can get the sound out of this thing here how is the ad here it isad tradon triline triline triline tril the troil adiz of twig kadine triline the triline penny now that's British can you can you to American FL coming Birds you know it's it's funny the only as you said the only evidence for this word is up to now is from the proceedings of the allic where did it come from I want to know is it a word that Katie put in there or did her editor put it in oh I bet she stuck it in I that's the kind of detail you would pride yourself on getting that into a story right it merely it merely yes also it's the sort of thing that if you put it in your editor would be like what the heck is this take it out editor was the one who had the BET yeah the BET sounds like the best theory it's got to be it doesn't even really give it a sentence yeah what what where is it in context again yeah she says the mint has a triline let me find it again I think she was using it as a metaphor for Speed right how fast they did something yeah how quickly crank yeah triline V Vigor do you know Katie Weaver do you know her I mean no I think I've like met her at uh think you need to write event or something once or twice I think you need to invite her on the show cuz if she does that kind of this her she's a phenomenal journalist she writes about the most interesting thing she reminds me of you I mean this is the kind of thing you would do right a deep dive into something completely obscure Coin Star is practically the sole medium by which the pennies churned out with triline Vigor by the mint migrate around the United States hummingbird like Vigor yeah I guess that fits all right we got to have some news I get this is the time the point in the show our fun is over we have to get back to the news fun is over Paris and uh and Jeff you must come up with a better story than that good luck when we return but first a word from our sponsor this episode of this week in Google brought to you by experts exchange see you can see why you want in the world you want somewhere you can go where you can talk to an expert and ask them a question and get a good answer not an AI driven madeup hallucination but a real answer when it comes to Tech if you're in Tech you need experts exchange join a 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would does he would the information sell your writing you think never in a million years yeah Jessica has been our founder and Editor in Chief and CEO has been very adamant about that the fact that all of these media companies that are making striking big deals with open AI they're making the same mistake uh that media companies did five years ago when they did the same thing with meta yeah they really that was a mistake with meta wasn't it why would it be any different with open AI yeah I mean I'm sure we've already been scraped Anthony neelson say we're on YouTube yeah yeah that's true I don't yeah I want look I've said it before I think AI deserve the best information I want I wanted that if somebody goes to chat GPT and they ask about Gutenberg we come up exactly or pennies pennies yeah well a podcaster once said all right Paris what What story did you pick uh I picked this story from the San Francisco Chronicle that found out basically I'll I'll read the top a Canadian tourist was visiting Oakland recently when he had to talk someone out of taking his Tesla from the hotel parking lot this was no Thief it was the Oakland Police Department turns out the Tesla may have witnessed a homicide um the article is about how Tesla's Sentry mode which is a security feature that uses the cars cameras to kind of record its surroundings when it's parked is increasingly being used by police as evidence in criminal investigations and this is I mean it really reminded me of what was happening with like ring doorbell cameras except for it seems like um the police or don't have to get a warrant for this which is particularly concerning in my opinion furthermore take your car they don't just get the video they have to take your car yeah and I mean I don't know I I feel like I shouldn't have to be Rec I shouldn't I'm not consenting to being recorded every time I'm walking by a Tesla you're in public well but you're but I just don't like it well you you're oh you're being recorded on on cameras on every all over I mean yes I know I'm just saying I don't think it's recorded camera now so according really oh my God guys I've got to go I didn't to the chronicle usually when they ask for a video they get the owner's consent to download it so they don't have to serve a warrant and they usually don't have to tow it but if they can't locate the owner and they need the video and they need it urgently they'll take the car but the sergeant Ben Tero president of the Richmond police officer Association was interviewed for this article said it is the most drastic thing you could do but you know what they're investigating you know a major Penny theft and they need that video you got to get a court order to do that uh I mean I think that's kind of ridiculous if I was a Tesla owner which I won't be but I would think it's ridiculous that my car suddenly is a witness to any potential crimes around it and can be taken from me if the police need to search through the video footage that's a bit well what's freak is they how do they know that your car was at the scene here kind data that exist here's the story when officers arrived at the parking lot of the LTA in near the Oakland Airport they shortly after midnight they found a man in an RV suffering from gunshot and stab wounds later he died they also noticed a gray Tesla parked in the stall opposite the RV ah in the search Warren affidavit obtained by the chronicle the officer said I know that Tesla vehicles contain external surveillance cameras they do in order to protect their drivers from theft or liability and accidents based on this information I res this is the warrant I respectfully request that a warrant's authorized to seize this vehicle so that the surveillance footage may be searched the judge approved it I think if you get a warrant a judge approves it okay yeah um now I hope he gets the car back what would be freakier is if they if they um knew who all owned Teslas and saw which Tesla was near an event through your cell records and then subpoenaed your Tesla because you were there now in this case there's a happy ending the Canadian tourist showed up as they as his car was being loaded to the tow truck he intervened and volunteered the video so the police released his vehicle but I feel like that's kind of coercive if you see your car you're walking over and they're like yeah sorry we're going to tow your car unless you let us look at this video voluntarily of course someone's going to be like yeah look at the video I feel like there are greater privacy implications with this well I think the God knows what the person was doing at the linta by the Oakland Airport you know yeah you don't want to be there I can tell you been there um honestly a lot of cars have cameras nowadays in fact I would imagine in the future most cars right cameras are cheap back they have to uh yeah but even but newer cars often had front-facing C mine does have I mean doesn't this concern you guys maybe I'm being the old person here but I just don't like the idea that everything in life is now going to be recorded it already is my friend it already is but that doesn't mean that I have to feel good about it no I get I creeped out here we are in this little town of pedala and every street light with a Butter Festival home of the Butter Festival every street light has a camera on it uh all the way down the street you see camera camera camera what are they what are they looking for people who light so they can send you a ticket like that's that's they it's it's red light cameras but these aren't just red light cameras they're Point pointing in other directions I I feel like they just took advant probably you know what really happened some company went to the pedma city council you know and said you want to build a monil no okay how about putting cameras on all the lights okay I'm in we part the police budget probably right that's part of the police budget sure absolutely and they get a lot of money okay what else that was a good one I liked it Paris I'm I'm going to propose one that Paris and I both put in I didn't notice it until just now line 69 oh nanoro nanoro now this is National novel writers month or national November national novel writing month I believe is November though and it's November do you do this by the way it feels like you don't but I there were times I like thought about participating it when I was like in grade school I think that work for us does it every does it every year I think basically what this is is it is a I guess now there's like a nonprofit organization Associated but it's a kind of community event of people who are interested in writing where the the gist of it is writing a novel is hard but one of the hardest things about it is sitting down doing the work writing something every single day the goal is to write a novel in one month I think the uh they have a specific number they Target like, in the Gutenberg parenthesis Jeff 100,000 so can you imagine writing that in two months or in a month one month no well it's 50,000 month times yeah to oh I see is 10,000 because it's a lot of pictures how about the web we weave the new one that's coming out that's that's probably around 50 that's more like 70 I mean so the thing that I think is important to know about this to give context is a lot of it is about Community like it is about building a community and teaching people who want to write a novel how to build the muscle of writing every single day organization and supporting each other it is not about possible novel no in in your single month it is largely an uh event of endurance the muscles now to the news Peg of the story the news Peg is that Nano rimo recently gotten a lot of hot water because they put out um new guidelines saying that they uh believe that new guidelines supporting AI use and nanoro specifically the thing that got them in trouble is they have kind of a whole section of their website where they say that criticism of using AI kind of writing generation tools in nanoro is ableist and classist because in their words it um does not take into account that people out there with disabilities might not be able to write at the same speed as uh you know non-disabled people that's fair but even more than that it's just a club to get together to write if you want to use AI to jog your writing hell if you want to write 50,000 words with an AI who cares so I I argued beginning you're not saying well it is comp it is a competition it is specifically I agree with you but it's a competition it's a personal competition in a sense it is about trying to write a lot in a short period of time whether it's good or not and so people online got very upset because they I think part and I kind of agree with this angle I don't think that it's cheating I just think that it's not particularly relevant to this example sure people want to use Ai and writing tools go for it but it seems a little strange for the organization itself to be advocating for the use of AI tools to generate writing in a task that is all about simply just generating words on page should you have to do it with a pen on paper exactly exactly it's a tool let me defend Nan whatever you say it Nano I can't stand the name I'm going to do by the way this next month I'm going to do nanor movember I'm going to grow a mustache while I write that's really smart yeah um so when Chad maybe even better nut Nano rhovember stop never mind just stop forget I said it so when uh when CH P came out I argued that it was a way to potentially expand literacy people who were scared of writing could use this to help them write now then in my executive program one of the students who runs a site for first nations in Canada and another who runs a site for imprison people said wo there white man uh you're suggesting to homogenize the language of all kinds of people to the hemony of all publishing that came before I said oh you're right you're right but still if you're in charge of the machine and what it turns out and if you're intimidated because maybe English is your second language or maybe you have dyslexia or maybe you just are afraid of writing if the idea is to get people over a hump and help them write then whatever gets you there I think should be seen as a fine and good thing and so I side with them the the um the Atlantic of course came out not surprisingly with a snobby piece because that's what they do saying AI is coming for amateur novelist that's fine you know cuz what the point of this too is that you got the writing establishment uh the publishing establishment saying now this is all [ __ ] nobody can write he's awful it's all crap you got to suffer for your art and and and rather than saying people are joining in to write what they feel and think and say I think that's a good thing what are we G there I I don't think it's entirely about suffering fear art let me let me read something um an artist Sylvia Marino Garcia posted on Twitter this week I did the nanoro thing 15 some years ago she the main impetus and benefit of it was socialization you would meet people online and in person chat about books have a buddy writing in parallel like joining a marathon in other words Bud uh buddy is that shady go ahead in other words the point is not about output but experience this is what these companies don't understand if I joined a marathon at the office it wasn't because I really thought I'd win first place it's because my colleagues would participate we'd train together have something to do get together celebratory dinner I think that the core part of this that it's the the not the output it's the experience is what I'm saying that for it's a strange thing for an organization that their whole ethos is you're trying to get to 50,000 words it's totally fine if you use AI to do that I think it's a strange little pivot from them because part of the Go ,000 words or is the goal getting over the hump and trying to feel like you could write yes but if you're not writing how are you trying to feel if you can write if you type something into chat GPT and I could say write 50,000 words for me right now would that count as me completing nanoro techic wanted to if you wanted but if you if you if you got inspiration if you I think there's a another aspect of this which is the way that nanoro kind of couched this was about how it is classist or ableist to uh dismiss these tools because they are essential for people disabilities to be able to participate in writing and a lot of Disability Advocates and disabled people online took offense to this because I think it's frankly offensive to say that the only way that disabled people can participate in communal writing experiences is through AI tools that generate work for you I don't think they're saying it's the only way but I think it's saying it's one thing and it goes to let's go to classes to um that you you you get the issue of people who believe they're not speaking classic English and uh they're seen as lower class as a result but I'd rather have those people's voices heard T what if that's not what they filtered through chat I mean I think that it's one thing I think from a personal individual perspective anyone can do whatever they want if someone wants to use chat gbt and say it's for nanoro sure good for them I think it's a little strange when you as an institution come out with a what was obviously going to be a big declaration this a really hot button Topic in this community because people are worried about organizations like Nana rimo selling their work to a AI cont AI company as content um I think that it was a bad move for them to do this I can I would suggest that it is not writing said Jeff I would suggest that saying give me 50,000 words not 50,000 no I'm not saying about the whole thing I would suggest that's not writing though because more curation you're you're seeing the outputs of the AI and then you're picking stuff that's not writing that's curating all creation is curation at some level well that's that's Co Corey Doo's argument that's that's the copyright argument a b I'm not suggesting that you use it to turn on ,000 Words yeah then what's the point but I am saying that if you use it to help for inspiration to improve it to uh give you ideas uh that would be forbidden in the ethos of some of these people and I'm saying those could be perfectly legitimate ways to help you get over that hump which is supposed to be the idea of this whole are there Rules by the way in this thing in rimo like There Are Rules like yeah kind of I think you like upload to the website and whatnot yeah but what rules like how you write don't use AI was an implied rule I guess because they said interestingly according to Patrick Delah handy who did do nanor Ramo twice in a couple years back he says that all this started after nanor rmo accepted an AI company as a sponsor yes so I was to say that one of the sponsors this year is pro writing Aid and if you go to their website it uh they describe it as providing actionable advice to improve your writing so one example they give is you may have written the sentence the ocean was bathed in a Serene atmosphere as the golden Sunset painted a tranquil scene and you could ask Pro writing Aid to expand that and then it gives you this as the sun began to set its golden Rays spread a peaceful Ambiance that en enveloped the entire ocean with golden Hues the Setting Sun created a sense of Tranquility that washed over the best I think this is fine but I mean this is one step past using grammarly are you allowed to use grammarly when you're writing I mean I think that certain aspects of it yes I think that if you're using it to I think in this case if you're using pring Ator grammarly to construct whole sentences for you they're more of a co-author if this was a competition and there was a prize but the whole point of this is to write to get you to write however you want to write I feel like that's what makes it even worse though is it'd be one thing if there was a competition there was a priz and people would say it's unfair the only person that's being cheated are the people who are using these tools let yourself then they get then then they get to choose that yeah they get to get some over your business if I want to cheat myself I mean I agree I think from an individual perspective yeah go for it do whatever I think from an inal perspective it's a strange Hill to die on May maybe I like to see different ways to cast a sentence because it helps me think about how and then I'm not going to use any of those three but I'm going to rewrite my sentence in a way that's more interesting see what Nano whatever does is that writers think we think we're so special as writers and so we pull the ladder up after us and say no no writing is hard and what what the ethos behind I used ethos three times sorry what the what the the the moral behind I think where this started was everybody please say zist a lot no I agree with you go ahead I'm sorry didn't me interrupt with my stupid was it was it it was an AI made me do it I think this is a tempest in a teapot honestly who it is what funny about it yeah and uh Paris I think I can see what I can see the slack where one person raises the woke idea well what about people who are disabled and other people don't and they say and I bet there wasn't a big discussion of this and you're training to run a marathon and you happen to only have one leg and you have a artificial leg or maybe even an artificial leg with springs that help improve your running should you not be allowed to run the marathon maybe you shouldn't be able to compete in the same category as uh able Runners but you should be allowed to run the marathon that's all we're saying it's if somebody has a a artificial leg they can still run marathons right for sure what is that right and and and and okay it's F if there were a competition in like the best 50,000 words or something like that then I could understand but you're not saying who nobody reads the 50,000 words who reads all this they just throw them out I mean there other writers I think that part of what ended up being a problem here is not like any decision they made because frankly the decision they made is we're not endorsing or endorsing use of AI writing tools it is a question of framing yes it is I mean let me read the part on class they lost they lost some people they lost quite a few board members because of this they say not all writers have the financial ability to hire humans to help them at certain phases of their writing for some writers the decision to use AI is a practical not an ideological one the financial ability to engage a human for feedback and review assumes a level of privilege that not all community members possess and I think that's fair but I think it is also a bit of a myopic like it is if we want to talk about classism in AI it is a much more complicated topic than three sentences approaching it from one side of the angle uh boy these poor nanoro people are so depressed now they said why do we even start this thing I think that part of the outrage is also fueled by fears that cuz part of I believe how the nanoro website works is you use their system to write your novel and people are worried that the text of their work could be used by this AI paranoia going on here they're AI is going to replace us AI is evil beinged anything good with AI it's trained it's stealing from us yeah there's a lot of that going on there's definitely we're we're starting to polarize into Pro and an anti- AI groups aren't we we're starting to yeah you know yeah it's interesting I don't know if that's the right thing to do with AI cuz you know they're just going to divide and conquer you know the new vws will have chat GPT built in why and why why Volkswagen's incar AI will use chat DPT and a multitude of cloud-based models to answer drivers questions no no when was the first CES in Las Vegas and how many people visited pay attention to the road don't be asking stupid questions while you're driving yeah Google Google uh assistant will not answer that kind of question now when you're driving it will not ask answer a an informational question how much more would you pay for Amazon Echo now we know that they're going apparently going to use anthropics Claude for their remarkable Alexa it's remarkable nobody used it before that was the problem but now maybe they will yes that's what's [Laughter] remarkable uh Amazon's revamped Echo for release in October uh5 to $10 a month for what they're calling the remarkable aw I don't know if I can say uh the a word or not if I go ASA uh did that trigger anybody or just did your dump button yeah I just I have a button a dump button um you'll still be able to get the stupid Alexa if all you want is recipes and timing and stuff like that so did the Atlantic say that's fine it's okay if we're amateur uh novelists we don't care they kind of say Let Let Them destroy because they're not really writers Dam they're writers like us what you expect that's a just let the robots you know this whole thing did make me uh go back and look into when I was a kid I was really into fanfiction I wrote a bunch of fan fiction so I went to go look at my account I at age 1333 wrote 102,000 word fanfiction with what time 6 months you wering the world wants to know is absolutely I mean I'm not giving any more details anyone to find it it was about an anime is all I'll say all right all right sexy it was sexy in the 13-year-old way and I think the characters kissed a couple times and I remember having to go and read other fanfiction where people kiss to make sure that I wrote it I did a lot of research on kissing if you can believe oh my God is that cute uh so you up there I have I have my I have the one novel I ever wrote you wrote a Noel box the one you wrote in Berlin that was bad yes thank God no one published it I'm just delighted and so if I had done that in public I'd be humiliated this day somebody could find it that's why I can't say any further nson proposing a club twit exclusive a radio play with paris's fanfic you guys would have to pay me a lot of money to do that come on Paris oh come on so much fun bring it to lunch with Leo and me yeah we'll do a reading we'll do a table read yeah I'll run I'll jump in front of a train I I've always it's on it's in digital form or is it in print Z it's in digital form it's on the website somebody can find it had hundreds of reviews it was you know you what to do Russ if you're listening Russia listen if if you guys can find what I'm talking about I'll be very impressed I've not given you many details because I don't think you'll be able to do it you just issued a challenge to our audience listen yeah but it's obviously it's not ever her real name yeah I know so and I imagine there's more than one 13-year-old anime fanfiction that's over a 100,000 words yeah I'm guessing there's quite a lot yeah it's gonna be a tough one good luck can you post an excerpt no because then you'll find it oh one character's name come on just one character she's not going to give us any information nope the challenge has been issued you are watching this week in Google with fanfic writer Paris Martino and novelist Wishful novel fa novelist Jarvis I always I always wanted to write a novel but I think because of my a Fantasia This Is My excuse I can't CU you can't see an apple because I can't I can't see an apple I I I can't visualize what I'm you know I can't put it down on paper when you you guys are writers could well when you do fiction anyway do you can you see what you're then she approached his turbid lips with Tradin she was only 13 Leo you're getting edgy here do you see the Apple I don't recall cuz was the probably the last time I wrote fiction honestly but yeah I do I do receive the Apple what I'm writing when you hear the story of William Tell do you envision an apple no it's just all fuzzy that's C so I asked uh Daniel you still can't picture your wife's face right no I can't see my kid's face do you know what CL their eyes are oh I know that I can that's the thing I know abstract details I could describe their face but I this is why I always thought um uh police sketch artists didn't understand it because how do they know what the face looked like that you could describe it to them and what I didn't understand is people see the face in their head that and they're describing it to the sketch artist I don't all I have is abstract knowledge about the face ADC and had a nose what kind of nose I don't know who knows who knows well if if the nose were big and red would you I might remember that as a fact okay but I wouldn't see a big red nose yeah yeah like if thinking about the Wayfair delivery guy who um you saw briefly when he were going downstairs to get cof before the show any details you remember about them no short ground blob that's it you'll be very useful if a crime ever happen not good for writing a novel a brown blob yeah his car will be better than he is moistened with anticipation I once asked Daniel sware is accomplished publisher published best selling author I I said I can't see things do I did you do you see things as your en me he said yeah what the hell are you talking about dude weird I lost a button don't mock my uh I'm not trying to get try you can't see it by the mic honestly that's yeah I'm trying to somebody has pocco saw he's talking about it in the chat room W uh ai's impact on elections is being overblown says the MIT technology Felix M Simon keeg mcde and Sasha alte writing so you wrote a PR of this on your link yeah but you can also the article's not long yeah um and importantly this is this is three people I respect well two one I know and respect Felix Simon um is now the head of research for the uh reuter Institute for the study of Journalism at Oxford uh Keegan McBride is in the Oxford internet Institute and Sasha alte is University of Zurich and I I found this really good piece because it it it at a lot higher level says that a lot of panic about information goes wrong and they have a few very clear reasons first mass persuasion is notoriously challenging plenty of communication theory about this that the hypodermic view that you can say something to somebody you're going persuade everybody is BS second for a piece of content to be influential it has to reach its intended audience and with the crush of content out there that's all the harder third emerging research challenges the idea that using AI to microt Target people and sway their voting behavior works as well as initially feared voters seem to not only recognize excessively tailored messages but actively dislike them and fourth voting behavior is shaped by a complex Nexus of factors all kinds of media exposure all kinds of of memories and factors all kinds of social things so this whole idea that oh my God AI is going to ruin the election is going down the wrong path but you could substitute AI for Russian disinformation or for social media or for anything else it's not that simple and so now we have plans announced today about what to do about Chinese disinformation in the election and yeah we should worry about trying to fool people when they vote and that kind of stuff I agree but basically there have always been idiots there's idiots out there and it hasn't shown to have had much effect so maybe a lot of our talk and a lot of our efforts are going down the wrong path so I thought this was a good piece yeah I I've skimmed through it um and uh you know they're arguing for uh restraint instead of uh Panic they say that uh in the 100 elections since uh 2023 there's only in more than 100 national elections just 19 were identified to show AI interference but I would point out that's 19% you know AI is only really becoming Vogue recently yeah um the evidence did not demonstrate clear signs of significant changes in results but I do I mean I think it's a little to say for Mass persuasion is notoriously challenging isn't it accepted that uh uh gabbles was able to use radio uh to good effect in in Nazi Germany there was a lot more going on than broadcas well those rallies with the big flags and the Marshal I mean I would say that the first worst thing that was invented uh is the loudspeaker and the guy notoriously who invented the loudspeaker was depressed that he enabled the Nazis for his whole life who really yeah that's the story that's his story uh show you never invent forgot his name but I read that storyed the loudspeaker yeah he was like he feels responsible for what happened you Mayer had more impact than radio loud if only like our current Tech mogul the same humility his name was Lance sper um uh bito I really want to know that because that's for the next book okay about I really really want to know that I did have I did have a thing about the loudspeaker in the goodw parenthesis but it was one of the things I cut out who invented the first loudspeaker uh they Johan Philip rice installed an electric loudspeaker in his telephone in 1861 I think that's a little earlier than the Nazis no that's not the PA system the guy I'm talking about PA system I see yeah because the loudspeaker was first used soon after the return of the century yeah needed amplification right uh here's the history of the PA system stevenh Robert Pearson of Lancashire England is credited with well anyway there's a lot of information here you could argue You could argue the worst thing that was ever invented I'll put it differently was the amplifier yeah well because all you could do before was speak to the people who could hear you given the Acoustics that was the largest crowd you could get to print expanded that but that required expense and effort with the amplifier you could increase your voice beyond that and then Begins the mass anyway sorry now I'm trying to find this an we're all doing our research now instead of doing a show so if you just uh pause come back back a few minutes I might have an interesting anecdote for you history of the loudspeaker uh AI may not steal many jobs after all it just may make workers more efficient says the Associated [Music] Press we're going to find either or stories like this going all the time but I think it's it's worthy not to presume that it's going to get rid of jobs I think there are a lot of right now there's evidence that a lot of we have some advertisers who for instance use Ai and customer service and uh their experience has been it helps customer service be more effective the humans be more effective by doing triage they can solve a lot of simple problems quickly so that the customer service reps only have to talk to people who have more complicated problems and their evidence is that both customers and the reps are happier because of it it only works if if customer service is empowered to solve your problem rather you have to think of it that way it's not yes it's it's let me explain to you our policy and why we don't do that yeah I mean phone trees don't make people happier that's for sure yeah uh let's see how Oprah will screw up the AI story you remember did we talk about did we talk about this on on this show or was it on I don't think so on TW so uh Oprah Winfrey is doing a special AI it'll be called The Story of Us later this month uh the reason we started talking about it on twit is because one of the people on it will be Marquez brownley YouTube star and Tech reviewer who and a major frisbee star yeah I saw that article as well Marquez is on the on a role but I saw when I saw a picture of him with Oprah I thought yeah I think Marquez has made it so this is the show it's going to be uh called AI the story of us uh Sam alman's going to be on it so was the dreaded Tristan Harris uh it it's an interesting review I mean uh of AI and I guess Oprah's plan is to make it accessible so that everybody can understand it which I admire that but I don't know I don't know if these are the people to do these are the people watch AI in the future of us September there's Oprah done by Ai No Doubt Sam Alman will explain how AI Works in layman's terms should we watch Dog in this we do a live B Gates oh we should do a live yeah I would love should we do a Mystery Science Theater 3000 for yeah mostly us spitting our coffee out uh Bill Gates will lay out the AI Revolution coming in science health and education YouTube Creator and technologist Marquez brownley will walk winre Winfree through mindblowing demonstrations see right there yeah that's exactly how mainstream media treats this stuff mindblowing demonstrations of ai's capabilities Tristan Harris and Asar Rasin co-founders of Center for human technology walk wirey through the emerging risks sounding the alarm moral entrepreneurs FBI director Christopher Ray reveals the terrifying ways criminals and foreign adversaries are using AI moral pic pits are prize winning author Marilyn Robinson reflects I will reflect on ai's threat to human values and the ways in which humans might resist the convenience of ai ai in the future of us an Oprah Winfrey special when does it air September 12th 8:00 pm that's a Thursday on ABC and the next day it'll be on Hulu if we were both not on vacation yeah the problem is Leo would have to watch it on the West Coast I have to watch on the East Coast we couldn't I'll be on a boat you'll be in a boat okay never mind I'll be in C watch um do you there's a lot of potential there's a lot of need for something that can explain AI to yeah just op winfy is not who I would think would I don't think this is party to do it it it also feels like it's a little bit too much let's get everybody in here and that's what she there's not be any clear I don't know I'll reserve my judgment till I see it but I my current thought reading the list of people scheduled to speak is that it will be a lot of hype's upcoming AI television special Sparks outrage among Tech critics this is from Benji Edwards at RS Technica AI opponents say Gates Altman and others will guide Oprah through an AI sales pitch if it was really that good if it was really that good the AI would do the whole show right yeah really yeah um sure is nice of Oprah to host this extended sales pitch for the generative AI industry at a moment when its fortunes are flagging and the AI bubble is TW threatening to burst it certainly will stimulate more investment won't it in AI companies uh artist Carlo Ortiz who is one of the plaintiff's suing AI the way the experts who are not experts are presented as such what a train wreck there's still plenty of time to get actual experts have a better discussion on this yeah I mean Tim GW might be good to have on yeah I feel like Sam alman's the wrong say tesel yeah we won't that's that's yeah that's like the smegma of AI oh if only the title for this show could be the smegma of AI going to be I can I know I'm saying if only if only we lived in a world where that would be your friend Ed zitan you want to know what he said probably something like the smegma of AI I'm guessing I think smegma is his favorite word he says Marquez brownley should be absolutely ashamed of himself what a disgraceful thing to be associated with that is so yeah yeah you should be ashamed of yourself um I don't know if that's true I mean look I used to go on uh Regis and Kelly and tell him about te but youd explain things you didn't you I did the same thing Dev null would explain things Dev no hey she should have Dev null on I would set him straight on a show Ed how much he got paid and Ed would probably be like all right all right I don't you I don't know I think Ed would be like this is disgusting I don't think they're going to pay him more than scale which is about a th000 bucks I don't I way for a show like this uh no Marquez brownley is definitely getting paid think you're not paying Bill Gates or Sam Alman yeah no I think ABC is going to treat this as a news special and they're going to pay you scale not $10,000 maybe they Willa money Oprah money Oprah Oprah can afford it you got a point though that all the rest of them aren't going to take the money even Tristan har wellist for the marketing for the marketing I would be disappointed if ABC pays more than scale for this you shouldn't a news organization should not pay scale scale is the union scale minim which would be about a thousand months I don't know what it is today but are you members you a member of the Union I was sag after yeah actually I wonder if Marquez is though there's no reason for him to be in the Union why would he be yeah need to be he's I'm not in Union anymore I'm in a bance or whatever so I don't have to pay du you want to show his uh frisbee video I've seen it this so many times I don't want to be part of the Marcus brownley promotion engine all right all right all right got something else we can talk about if we don't want to talk about the first you go you go yes it's very important um I'll tell you what while you talk about that I will show Marcus brownley on NBC my thing we have to internet's favorite tech Reviewer is also an elite Ultimate Frisbee player he is though he's really good I mean I will impressive look at this watch this catch look at that look at that watch this catch he leaps into the air thousands of feet above the others snags the Frisbee can you beat that huh anecdotally Ultimate Frisbee players in New York City are some of the worst the most annoying people I've ever met people they're like they're Bros but in like a crunchy way that's kind of annoying you know they're Bros with man buns Andes what's the deal with all the bead bracelets the things the strings and all that I don't like what is that what's the deal with all that people just I don't know I can't wear it because it irritates my arm hairs so I don't I I feel frustration whenever I see a bunch of bracelet pretty much life irritates my arm hairs I don't I don't none of it um okay so my uh thing is very important the winners of Michigan's 2024 I voted sticker contests have been revealed and I frankly want all of them even though I don't live in Michigan look at these these won yes so traditionally when you go to the polls you get a nice red white and blue American flag sticker that says I voted click the first one which was done by an El schooler not in Michigan how great is that imagine if you go to your polling booth and you get a werewolf pulling off a ripped shirt in front of an American flag that's wild here that was by Jane highness in Gross Point Michigan of brownley middle school it's vo mcvote face it is this has become a thing now that's by an adult I believe um probably a childless cat lady since it is in fact a Cat in the Hat yes if you go to the web this one just has the bigger ones I think that one's cute it's a fish this is my favorite one that one is by another Elementary schooler Gabby Warner in rock honestly that's the one I'd wear of all of those that's the one I'd wear if you click the uh link below this in the rundown it brings you to the full page with um all of them or might have that further on the Twitter thread I like there's one that says I'm cool I voted which is nice also by so are all of these going to be made into stickers um so I believe what happens is they will all be available for election clerks to for the November election so election clerks can choose which on they want to get you know um these are the winners goles that's good yeah that's good that's by a high schooler yeah this is also by a high schooler that's pretty I kind of like that yeah hope I like this one that seems very I think that's a Mion Gander thing op yeah op op I voted oh I voted H okay okay I like it I like I don't know I just thought it was fun credit to the winning artists um God that wasn't even her pick that was a generous gift to the show that was a gift to the show you guys can get that one free of charge and you can't go to the m Department of State if you if you'd like to see all of them and you can order them well maybe you can't you have to be an election clerk yeah if you're an election CL you think they'll have a a slate of of unofficial election cl's ordering these God they better order the chane highest one the werewolf one is fantastic I don't know I don't it's ridiculous and it's ridiculous it's absurd it doesn't fit the election theme whatsoever a middle school girl made it and America made it an official election sticker and I think that's what this country is all about America made it an official America voted America voted and that werewolf did too and we've got to respect that there they were in like in categories she was in the elementary and middle school category there were also High School winners and then the general entry winners see adults are too uptight yeah I agree with you you got to go to the younger the youngs for the really good I'm cool Gabby is my favorite gab I like gabes I'm gonna get Gabby I voted y I like the backwards e is pretty good and voted yeah let's make let's make this let's let's print these up and hello Joe espito you're the sticker guy and who put in dignation 2.0 I did so this is I didn't know I didn't know that it was retured our old friend Kevin Rose and Alex albre uh who did for many years Paris no oh it's a drunk guys talking about tech news it's the show don't have any right and now it's wine and they're going are I think they're going to do one and I doubt do you think they'll keep doing it for a while 10,000 views 49,000 subscribers it's like they never left it says there back it looks like maybe it's a few years later yeah it's kind of it's kind of it's a little bit I'm not gonna I mean I'm not going to judge I'm a little older too and they're a little older and they're may be a little richer too maybe just a little bit so yeah it's a nice looking home that hat I can't afford that hat yeah you probably can't literally well Kevin was on the show Kevin Rose is uh one of the original twit cast members he was on the show a few months ago and he's wearing a kind of a nice uh sweater Marino wool I said oh that's nice how much is that $4,000 said okay thank you um Android had oh change log we'll do the right this word the Google change log that's the word Android has five five count of five new features out today count along with me folks TalkBack now runs on Gemini talk is a screen reader tool designed for blind and low vision users uh I don't know you really want an AI model telling you what's on that screen it'll power the audio description for images yeah Chrome will read out loud to you now using text to to speech and it's and it's pretty good Circle to search you know about Circle to search well now you can search for music your device's microphone to analyze music it's only rolling out right now to the Samsung s24 devices oh no more devices are coming you can long press your device navigation bar tap the music icon to begin searching it works for songs you hum or sing yourself as well as music playing from your phone or another source one of the things I love about the pixel is it will it will tell me the soundtrack of my life will actually keep track of all the songs I hear as I'm walking around and then give me a list what so it's always recording it's always listening recording is such you like that big word it's it's just Shazam you know Shazam it's just shazaming all the time always creeping out Paris she's going to do on this don't like that really but how often you're like at a at a hair salon getting your qua and they play a m a song you go that I like that song all you have to do is look at your phone and you'll tell you what the song is you I mean I just look at my phone press one button and then it tells me what the song is this way you don't have to remember to press the button always be shazaming H Android earthquake alerts have been expanded to cover all US states as well as six territories even if they don't have earthquakes when's the last earthquake you've had in Brooklyn we had one yeah yeah we had we had one last year luck I'd go to New York City we have an at Bryant Park Leave California and there's a massive earthquake in New York yeah yeah when was that earthquake was it it was about three months ago three months yeah it I had headphones on it was in a grocery store and I didn't notice it at all but real if you had a real earthquake you would not miss it yeah no I'm don't shocks which probably affected the cat we didn't feel them but the cat was cor wacky couple a couple of year maybe it was a year ago Lisa and I were having dinner at a restaurant and all everybody's phone in the restaurant went earthquake and nobody had felt it yet because it get it's early warning and then a few seconds later what did you do dived under the table felt like an idiot because it wasn't a really big earthquake no did you really no I did what everybody does go what the hell yeah you're trying to put by the time I realized there was an earthquake there was an earthquake and then you see all the gum underneath the table and it's really disgusting they do it's kind of cool because you do get an early warning it's not like a long time but a few seconds might be enough to get somewhere safe new Google Map feature for smart watches on where OS does anybody have one of those no offline map access download the map on your phone and then you can go to Google Maps and your watch and you'll see those offline thank you to Life Hacker for those five new Android features because if somebody didn't write it up in an article I don't think I would have noticed to be honest be perfectly honest yeah uh Google says it's removing poor quality Android apps from the Play Store so this one's relevant to the discussion the other day about antitrust and the play stores the app stores I mean this is what you want them to do this is value at you said they add value yes they add value they get rid of crap um they citing a desire to provide a stable respon of and engaging user experience on August 31st uh They removed apps with limited functionality and content static apps without apps specific functionalities that yeah it's just a picture text only or PDF files apps with a small amount of content that don't provide an engaging user experience I voted uh single wallpaper apps Google's also removing apps with broken functionality such as apps that crash freeze force close or otherwise function abnormally um some say well should should they be able to do that I think yes I think that's that's probably okay in fact Apple wouldn't let those apps through and certainly would pull them if they if they change dramatically so I think that's fair Google clock is rolling out a new timer starter widget oo um widgets can really be fun and useful or they can take up a lot of screen space for very little function how old was the last time you installed a widget I haven't installed a widget in years oh I have I have a widget yeah what's your widget it's a carrot weather an a a weather app that yells at you um but it also is very powerful and lets you choose much data source and I've got a widget on my home screen that tells me weather stuff daily I also like it because having the widget on my home screen means that I keep my daily streak of using carrot um which I've had since 2017 so are you is it are you like a you get like a badge for that or something carot just tracks stats in the back of it and I just like looking at them like it tracks what's the highest temperature you've ever been in or Lois and how many days you've used the app and things like that it knows too much Paris it's been tracking you everywhere it knows where you are that's true car will kill me eventually and I'm really happy about that I'm Min minimalist on my Android device on my pixel it's just nothing no no widgets at all except for the you know the basic time and weather one but on my Apple iPhone I go crazy so this is that's audible there's carrot weather whoops um you can show that's right uh I guess I have two widgets my calendar uh and this is just suggestions for widgets and then here I have Lisa's location and I have my car all good it's all good uh here I have Google news here I have pictures from my past Oho mie uh and then that's it that's all I got but that's a lot of widgets right every page has a widget or two I love widget anyway now you can have a timer widget Google has renamed tensorflow light to light RT don't forget the last part of it tlow brand remains so they haven't they haven't removed it just I just thought this was a really funny headline that makes no sense to me and I don't want to know I don't care light RT which is a terrible name Light Art meanwhile the main tensorflow brand will not be affected I think this is they just want you to forget tensorflow light exists and actually this is very good news YouTube has debuted new parental controls aimed at teens uh a new feature that would allow a parent to link their account to a teens account in order to spy on them no did I say that no in order to gain insight into the teens activity or spy on him I mean this is clearly uh a response to the variety of bills and lawsuits that it is seeing over online child safety specifically targeting the age 13 to 18 demo wouldn't you hate this you're 13 you're writing fanfic that involves anime lip locking and your par are getting alerted to your channel activity the numbers of uploads subscriptions and comments when I my dad seriously believed that Google Chrome was a virus so it would have been rough for me your dad I remember printing out stuff on the printer being like Google Chrome is a legitimate browser and he was like uh-uh uh-uh wow do your dad you're on a show called this week in Google yeah no he loves it he uses Google Chrome now whenever I tell him about that he's like oh I didn't do that well I remember dad dad niia ad Amnesia I didn't do that I tell my daughter that all the time I didn't do that what you talking about I love Chrome well that's the Google change log I hope you enjoyed it banga bonga Binga bonga bonga there are so many other stories uh but we as usual on this show I there's so many things I want to talk about but we ended up spending half an hour on pennies and it was a great half hour it what's the reaction going to be from the from our our fans out there will they like the penny I think there will always be a vocal minority that decides to complain about everything and they'll be like great show but they spent too long talking about pennies this isn't weak in pennies this is we this week in Google I should do a show called this week in seniorage then you'd be happy yeah I think what Paris once is this week in amazing things you didn't know I do I do I you know what let's make this the show that's the show from now on scooter X by the way is is hurt that we did not include all of his many links all of his many links um sorry scooter X sorry scooter it's unfortunate but we don't care I ran out of time scoot oh we ran out of time that's yeah yeah like there's like there's a clock on the show you you think there's not a clock hold the clock you said there's a clock look at that 2 hourses 20 seconds finish soon there is a clock buddy I have a clock so ladies and gentlemen uh in one moment we're going to take a little break when we come back we will have our picks of the week you're watching this week in pennies this is that's right where there is where put the inserted ad that is so offensive and annoying that you will want to join the club seriously I look I it wasn't my idea but uh I think it it turns out this is a really great way to get people in the club twit you listen to an awful ad and then you go I don't want to hear that anymore and I say well for seven bucks a month you don't have to you don't even have to hear me telling you join the club we take that out too twitch.tv/ Club TW seven bucks a month adree versions of all the shows more importantly you get to join in on special events that we do in our club twit Discord like the game show that Paris and I are going to do when she gets back and I get back that's gonna be a lot of fun Bono's going to be in our squad or party right yes and by game show he means playing a game yeah on a show May I make a suggestion as to the ads that you guys could use to maybe one ad you could add an addition to the IAL you just have the dial up internet noise but like set at like significantly higher than the podcast so people are a bit shocked could be a good way to force them into paying for Club Twi so I think I think to to to insert a Lumi ad with the lady who talks about butt cracks that'll get him to join so we turn this up really loud oh he's got it love I think that would annoy people oh what's the is the is a noise going on we we didn't hear it Leo your work no you're laughing at your own joke but we why aren't they hearing that I'm hearing it probably Zoom settings oh man likes to reject uh playback audio did you not hear any of the audio I've been playing back throughout the whole can you mimic it with your voice can you make the dialog voice join the club so you never have to hear that again twit.tv Club twit actually it's a lot of fun and we really appreciate the support picks of the week let's start with Paris martinu my pick of the week is a bit of a revisit quite a few weeks ago I brought you the website 1 million checkboxes it's a website with 1 million check boxes on it right somebodys been messing with it part of the thing is uh the creator of it wrote a really good blog post called The Secret inside 1 million checkboxes um and he goes through kind of his thinking in the site how uh he was storing um the state of the different checkboxes they were in like bits and whatnot a couple days after launching 1 million check boxes he rewrote the back end in one go he says with this help his friend to keep up the load and for some reason he dumped an asy encoding of the raw bites in his database he doesn't know why he just did it and then the data he saw he was looking at it and it looked a little weird it you know has um normal I guess raw bites in the database and then in the middle of it is a link to catgirls dowin slcb and his reaction to the this was what the f am I hacked um he panicked there were URLs in his database there were URLs pointing to catg girl. in his database something was very wrong be then he was looking at it he he realized that it was because um someone was writing a message in bioner on his website oh my God he looked into it eventually ended up going down the rabbit hole and just went all right I'm going to go to this website catgirls dowin CB turn turns out it was a Discord server called checking boxes and it was run by a bunch of teens that were download data to make images on the website basically the way the website work 1 million check boxes they asked him have you seen your check boxes in a thousand by, image and then he did it he made the website that size and it said stuff like be gay do crime uh code that leads back to the Discord and things like that and they think the internet hurts teenagers oh my God and the repeated noise the bottom is the binary message that he found he says the Discord was full of some very sharp teens and they were writing these secret messages to gather other sharp talk about botting the site anyone who's writing a bot would probably be looking at either the base 64 version of the data the binary version or the 1,000 to 1000 image version and they were covering all the bases and it worked wow so he ends up kind of sitting in with this teen group he goes through his process they end up doing some really cool things at one point they tried out animations um they they made the uh um Windows blue screen of death they how you do animations well I think they did uh they made this was real time basically is they had the boss checking and unchecking Che these kids are amazing they rickrolled him and that clip is in real time this is what the check boxes looked like in real time ohow OMG so this is somebody's writing scripts to do this you humans couldn't do this humans did they were writing scripts yeah they can't you couldn't do it by just your mouses and it's interesting because he ends up like kind of going into there were certain times where he would he ends up building a relationship with his Discord and for instance when the Washington Post wrote about uh the thing he messaged the Discord and was like Hey the websites in the Washington Post if you're botting avoid the top where all the new viewers of the website are going to land so that they're not upset when they click a check box and it's automatically unlicked by your Bot and I just I found this it's a really like long um blog post and he gets into it and I just thought it was a really cute slice of the Internet it's a perfect delightful Rabbit Hole mhm oh it's wonderful this is on his substack which is aptly named ei. substack docomo from the old internet yeah it really does it is it is so recently I thought my most this by the way the project was called 1 million Chuck box so there's also a video you watch you tell he's a nice guy he just know seemed like a great guy and he says when he was a kid in high school he wrote a bot that sent his friend a million spam messages on email and accidentally crashed the school's email server so I think he felt a kinship with the kids who were hacking his check box what I found so cute about that is he said about crashing the school's email server the adults in my life were largely not mad at me they asked me to knock it off but also made me a t-shirt I don't think I'd be doing what I do now without the encouragement that I received then which is so cute I think it's really great uh that's a great story This Is Why when people say oh you know AI is going to take over all the programming jobs and kids don't know how technology works and stuff maybe maybe a lot of kids don't but there are kids out there who are just as excited about this stuff and getting into it and hacking it and messing with it as ever and I love this and maybe I don't know how big this group was does he say how many people think it ends up being like 60 some people yeah some of the smartest kids in in the country probably the NSA will be talking to each and every one of them trying to offer them a job very nice good pick that's my pick of the week yeah the secret inside 1 million checkboxes and Now ladies and gentlemen a shocking Revelation from Jeff Jarvis so you may not know Paris that I get abuse on this show really abuse from who I'll beat them I get now Stacy was was guilty of this as much as anyone because I you know it's late here as you know and I need to go have dinner and I found a wonderful way to have dinner that was delicious and quick and inexpensive and convenient and I got abused for it it Trader Joe's K Pepe Pepe yes and I enjoy it and I like it are you saying Frozen kach Pepe Frozen M doesn't even know you know that you can just put spaghetti in a in a pot of water I can screw even that upes on it that's it and then I can screw that up I a little water I me you one time burn yourself and you had to go to the ER asparagus yes yeah yeah yeah I made the kacho pppe once for my wife and it was awful it was awful I couldn't do it so but I we found the bridge too far I won't go into talk about bridges right now there was a story this week about how climate change is making Bridges more vulnerable to falling apart but I'll leave that for another day oh come on uh yes it was there but I this I have found the bridge too far the place I will not go Hines spaghetti carbonara in a can how what could possibly be wrong it's got everything you want spaghetti creamy sauce pinetta and no artificial color is Spill with to you evidently this is released in in the UK where they have no taste I would try I'm not going to lie I bet it's delicious I bet it's probably too salty did you have Chef boardd when you were a kid yes until once as a child when I threw up and I'd had Chef boardd SpaghettiOs beforehand and I remember seeing all the spaghetti letters still there and I never had it since no I remember Abby giving her Wagon Wheels you know the Wagon Wheel pasta I love it when she was like eight months or something or nine months and there's nothing really kind of more terrifying than projectile Wagon Wheels cuz they retain their shape they retain their shape yeah um listen I can't I mean listen probably this is awful but I also can't knock it because I sometimes my late night or early morning can't be bothered meal is um it's mac and cheese in a like little microwavable thing but it's Cheetos flavored mac and cheese and I don't know why but the Cheetos flavor tastes so much better than all the other options they've really figured it out and it's delightful you probably would enjoy then uh my my son salt Hanks Amazon stream with the uh the very wonderful he sold quite a few of them a Cheeto Cheeto grinder blender the Cheeto Duster yes Cheeto duster you remember this oh do I remember it was jealous follow Cheeto flavored duster oh I should have saved it I bought one I still to this day every time you say Cheeto duster I think you mean like duster like the jacket and a a a duster jacket floor length in the color of Cheetos they should make that because I would buy it it's still on Amazon if you ever want to see it here he is just a a blender was streamed live it's a it's not a what it is it's a very bad blender I mean it's you wouldn't put anything but the the weakest Cheetos in there you don't I wouldn't even use the crunchy Cheetos I'd use the basic Cheetos because it's just a little weak food grinder um it's not powerful in any way but he made it look good doesn't he didn't he and uh I think I got a very good deal on the Cheetos duster let's see what the what the price is last purchase December 8th oh you can't get it anymore devastating well now you should have kept it I never opened it I should sell it on eBay yeah yeah yeah oh my gosh get Hank to sign it autographed oh you know it really probably would be worth you can get it at Walmart for $29.99 oh I only was $19.99 but I would never though that like as someone who's a big fan of crunchy things I would not use the duster to add cheap on top I would want to crumble them just slightly so that they retain their crunchiness well from the look of what he was doing it didn't they didn't get them to dust it got them to crumbles yeah yeah you can get you get to choose the level of okay actually my second thought is could you dust them to the point where you could do like yes Fried Chicken Cheetos yes he did in fact make fried chicken so you get that's the beauty of the Cheeto duster it can go anywhere from crumbles to dust literally dust there it is Paris your Cheetos colored duster which is a coat um I think carar and a tin is a great idea I have to say I am a little bit of a stickler on carbonara because I our local uh Italian restaurant I think we probably have taken you there uh Jeff oh yeah yeah uh Cafe Jer I ordered carbonara there and there were onions in it and I said dude that's not carbonara here is a Cheetos colored Cheetos duster just for you parents it's honestly beautiful I'd wear it gorgeous looks leather I will be wearing that at Bryant Park for me oh that's good to good to know the ingredients in hindes include Panetta cornflour skimmed milk powder cheese powder sugar garlic flavoring onion extract and dried parsley just to give it a little bit of color there there should there's no dairy in carbonara it feels like it's a creamy sauce but it no Dairy and it's just spaghetti watered the water you save a little bit of that and with the parmesan and The Panetta and that's all you need it's delicious dang now I want carbonara I had when the Dick Tracy movie came out long back mhm uh what's his name who was the star Dick Tracy um Warren batty thank you Warren batty He Wore a Yellow Dick Tracy coat yes and indeed when I left Entertainment Weekly in a huff my staff got me one of those as a farewell I don't have it still it wouldn't fit a and you kind of couldn't wear it anywhere but it was pretty amazing very cool uh that is it we're done thank you so much to both Jeff and Paris I cannot wait to meet you in person Paris we've never met I know so exciting New York City beckons whether or not you have legs but I'm excited to find I don't but I do use AI while just a torso yes the metaverse characters were actually designed based on exactly uh then uh next week uh it will be are you hosting next week Paris no Micah is hosting next week and then I will be hosting the week after CU you're in Croatia yeah yeah have fun in Croatia I shall that's going to be awesome awesome I'll be here as always folks you can't get me I'm the bad Penny no we need Jeff here to give for the continuity so next week Micah Jeff and do we know yet Bonito who will be filling in for parents not yet not yet somebody very excited maybe you should get Ed zitan on that would be fun I'd love to see Micah try and handle Ed I would be painful wow uh and thank you uh Jeff I will see you for lunch uh and I will see you both after that in a couple of weeks I'll be back on September 24th or 25th for this weekend Google uh thank you all for joining us we do this week in Google every Wednesday 2 p.m. Pacific 5:00 p.m. Eastern 2100 UTC you can watch us stream on seven count them seven platforms YouTube twitch x.com LinkedIn Facebook I feel like this is the cognitive test man woman gorilla camera clock clock two I've lost count uh kick and somewhere else uh but but if you can't watch live you can always get a copy of the show after the fact we record it amazingly enough and download it either from the website what yes it's lives forever tt.com or twit.tv twig uh or actually when you get there you'll C see a link to the YouTube channel you can see every episode there in video or subscribe in your favorite podcast client to the uh audio or the video you'll get it automatically that way which is very nice thank you to our club members who made this all possible we really appreciate it uh and uh you got you got to join so that Leo can afford a button on that shirt that's what you have to do I'm never wearing this shirt again I don't know if I po it's shirt isn't it great the SoMo shirt lovely does it have some burrow buttons oh just regular buttons should shouldn't it maybe it should replace them with some yeah I think that'll work yeah or have a great vacation Paris I will see you uh for lunch on Friday and uh we will see you all next time is that a cat probably well did you see oh wait wait wait wait one more Story Just One More Story did you see the story about the number 10 Downing Street cat that was in the Wall Street Journal I did I put it in the rundown no oh it's a beauty does this cat survive from prime minister to prime minister or he has six Prime Ministers but the other animals turns out that Larry is a bastard he's mean did you see it thereis Larry the cat yeah pain in the blood there's a catastrophe Brewing on Downing Street here are Larry the cat's best moments uh he's their Chief Mouser new British prime minister K strammer has a lot in his mind from the riots that swept England recently to Britain's sluggish economy to the war in Ukraine but the former prosecutor has another issue troubling him how to handle Larry the cat got a pigeon holy cow that every day uh oh the Bobby's gonna open the door for him there goes Larry he gets a Bobby to open the door for him that's Larry Larry is 17 years old oh my goodness they have a they have a Communications plan for when Larry loses the T oh they're going to have to do a you know stop the BBC yeah go dark God save the C his wife Victoria and two teenage children moved into tend Downing Street in July after a sweeping electoral Victory but another family member also moved in JoJo a male gingercat oh that's not JoJo has yet to meet Larry and the family is working out how to engineer an encounter that doesn't end in flying fur according to sources familiar at the matter the daily male tabloid warned of a catastrophe if the meeting goes wrong the headline for the next section is in quotes it's Larry's domain Larry like many cats doesn't always take well to newcomers especially those on four legs Larry had quote heated exchanges with Nova the labrador owned by former prime minister Rishi sunak Nova came out in the losing end oh wow yeah they say according to the independent you can't have a put a cat flap in the door cuz they're bomb proof so Larry has to be let in and let out uh all by himself oh here's the C wrote Larry in my view is a bit of a thug I say this because our dog Dylan went a few times to Larry's Lair and Larry being out at the time Dylan decided entirely naturally and reasonably to eat his food the reprisals were terrible he wrote in the newspaper column dubbing Larry a Catzilla and I don't know but I think that this is actually the official x uh account of it's not police have to break up Larry's fistic cups with Freya former Chancellor George Osborne's cat lar Larry tussled with Palmerston a female that performed similar duties moral support for staff and perhaps catching the occasional Mouse at the nearby foreign and Commonwealth office I think this cat is my new uh political uh yeah Idol survived six Prime Ministers they have a photo of Larry hissing at Palmerston yes who Larry hurt Palmer's ear was damaged during an encounter with Larry and then he retired to the countryside in 20120 oh my God that is vicious okay one more thing far from being spooked the stormers have doubled down and this week brought a new cat a Siberian kissy or a Siberian Kitty into the residence wow so I didn't mean to extend the show Beyond but I knew you'd enjoy that I really the cat did out Outlast Liz trust so that's good yeah for Larry this new kitten might be the lesser of two evils the star martines originally wanted a German Shepherd but relented after a summer of negotiations wow wow delightful you gotta love that's a that's what why they'll always be in England yeah the cat outlives the Prime Minister you can't imagine White House six of them yeah that you know oh yeah you're moving out no problem we still the cats are going to stay that would be great get Larry the cat spaghetti carbonara for dinner and yeah yeah all right so sorry you can you can end the begin thanks for joining us everybody uh we'll see you next time have a great vacation bye-bye on this week in Google bye [Music]