How Will Packer uses arrogance to his advantage

I'm Yasmin G I'm Josh Christensen and this is most Innovative companies on today's episode will Packer an author in TV and film producer and also Beyonce Whisperer you know the coonis you got to have to look Beyonce in the eye when somebody's like listen I've told you once I'm telling you for the the third time the fourth time I'm chopping your head off a new Jal founding partner of female Founders fund you have now not just 6 months or 12 months you have 18 months of a market that's just Frozen and as always keeping tabs with a Twist this time Nick Celtics Lakers and bandwagons are full come to the Hops here you can sit up front you can sit premium but first here's the [Music] download the news you need to know this week in the world of business and Inn the founder of the popular messaging app telegram pavl durov was arrested in France as part of an investigation into criminal activity on the app telegram became popular for its let's say Le Fair approach to policing user Behavior basically they let anyone post whatever they want durov is currently being held and investigated regarding crimes related to money laundering fraud drug dealing and child pornography yikes yesz have you ever used telegram no WhatsApp is already so confusing to me I use signal a little bit which is a competitor I guess but telegram as far as I can tell it's just for porn porn in the Russian military anyway more on that next week Uber is facing a fine of €290 million EUR or $324 million after Uber transferred private information about their European drivers to America this violates EU rules that protect data privacy Uber has appealed the fine I'm just curious I'm sure there is a reason and it's probably for ads but I'm just wondering why America wanted European drivers uh I know yeah it's just weird it can't be good it's not great the merger between Paramount and Media company Sky Dan is back on pending regulatory approval which is always my favorite phrase to include in in any sort of news story this is going to happen pending an arduous approval process the deal was briefly delayed when FUBU TV executive and former CEO of Warner Music Edgar brontman Jr which is a great name by the way being fubo TV executive Edgar brontman Jr is such a mouthful oh man yeah it's so much to say anyways Edgar bronfman Jr made a competing offer to buy controlling share of Paramount but bramman has withdrawn his bid and Paramount is sent again an influx of Capital it desperately needs axon a company known for selling tasers and body cams has created an AI tool similar to chat gbt but for police officers exactly what we needed exactly this is the Innovation that the world needs right now the tool will generate reports based on the sounds picked up by police officers body cams this is not the first time police agencies have used AI algorithmic tools to read license plates identify suspects with facial recognition and predict where crimes might occur have all been used in the past and just like with those examples activists are rightfully worried about racial bias and other prejudices being exacerbated by this tool it's not great this is not a great story do not love this at all yeah this is some real um what's that Tom Cruz Minority Report yeah I don't think you can necessarily trust a company that makes tasers and body cams for police to be not like to be the best programmers of of a chat GPT like software next story deola Adam Lake the former CEO of PF jangs is set to become Red Lobster's new CEO Red Lobster filed for bankruptcy last May and just announced More Store closures but the company hopes for a turnaround much like the one Adama Laken LED with PF Changs during the pandemic never forget when I was an intern at the New York Times and I convinced everyone to save their money and go to the Red Lobster in Times Square where Nicki Minaj was a waitress once wow that is a story I did not expect to hear I made a lasting impact on that organization what can I say clearly and finally pharmaceutical company Eli Lily is now selling the lowest doses of their weight loss drug Zep bound starting at $399 on their direct to Consumer website they claim this is half the cost of competing drugs like wovi which is still in a shortage Eli Lily says these lowd do vials of 2.5 milligram or 5 milligrams will significantly increase the supply of weight loss drugs in the US why does it sound like an office supply Zep bound Zep bound and that's the news you need to know today so Josh if they were making a movie or TV series about your life what genre would it be in I would say it'd be the kind of genre that doesn't make it to air not a lot interesting not a lot interesting has happened in my life so far uh no that's not true I've had some moments don't some moments I don't know I think it would be a multicam sitcom like at best when they used to just give any white guy who was kind of funny a sitcom yeah maybe you could have like a catchphrase I don't think I'm going to add lib any any catchphrases because that could quickly get off the rails but it does remind me this is the second time I'm going to have brought up the show Ed about the bowling all Ali lawyer from the early 2000 Michael Ian Black's character had one episode where he kept trying to make up and catch on a catchphrase for himself that was very funny yeah yeah it's teric what about you what what genre would you I think I have an idea of what it would be I'll tell you what I think later I would say very obviously it would be an erotic Thriller um I don't know crazy life that I lead yeah no that's that certainly would be it I mean I was going to say it'd probably be a romance novel but on par with the like the Mormon romance novel that are written by like 50 Shades of Gray which is like very chased strange enough just because you went to a posh British girls school and that is the setting of fanfic I guarantee it so the reason we're talking about this is because in our next segment we chatted with film television and Now podcast producer will Packer he's worked in Hollywood for over 20 years and we basically asked him how he would cast us in a fictional movie about our podcast you might have seen some of his films like Ride Along The Wedding ringer and girls night he also has a book on the way next year called who better than you the art of healthy arrogance and dreaming big about the stories and lessons he learned in the entertainment industry Will's latest show Fight Night premieres on September 5th on peacock it's inspired by real events and cast with some of the biggest names in Hollywood including Don cheel Samuel L Jackson to Raji P Henson and yes Kevin Hart we started off talking about why will has described it as the origin story of Atlanta yeah first of all that's a heing description that is uh that's ballsy to come in and say that we're you really went for it yeah we going to tell you how Atlanta started there was no Atlanta before fight night every city has like an inflection point in their growth in their maturation when they start to begin to get taken seriously on like an international stage if it's an international City I'm thinking black Vegas gambling women you still need to reach out to the Council of all the top black bosses Across the Nation true story Muhammad refused to go to Vietnam super polarizing could not get a sanction boxing match because he was basically black ball and you had a lot of Americans just like today we going you know how dare you unamerican all the things and so he took an unsanctioned off the books boxing match in Georgia that was put together by this really interesting hodge podge of like government officials and promoters and conmen they put it all together got Ali Down to Georgia and it attracted a who's who clientele especially with an African-American community of celebrities athletes and gangsters and these gangsters came from all over and there was this Afterparty that was an underground casino and it got robbed all these gangsters were in this party and guys came in with guns and masks and stripped everybody down true story I never heard of this the reason that we talk about the origin story of Atlanta is because this was one of those kind of major events it was it was huge it made national news it was very embarrassing to the city the governor the mayor and the chief of police said we've got to find out who robbed these people and then bodies started to pile up and it started to get really ugly and they were like this looks bad it's a black gue on Atlanta like we need to shut this down we need to solve the crime figure it all out and the Hustler who was also the promoter of this party local Hustler named who went by Chicken Man A+ name plus name you can't make that up you can't I mean come on now who the is this chicken man Chicken Man chicken wing you don't speak chicken I mean literally Josh if I said all right you can be a hustler you can call yourself anything you want right like what what animal am I going to choose you got yeah exactly your your last meal and your gender right like that's how you determined I mean it's better than Shrimp Boy I guess that no that's me your shrim boy from now on yeah I know my l so everybody thought this hustle that put it on they thought he was behind it they were like no no no this is too shady like you're the one that got everybody together and then all of a sudden we get robbed and so there was this one black detective on the force at the time and this is played in our series by Don Cheeto brilliantly by Don Cheeto the amazing Don love that actor his job is to keep chicken man alive long enough so that he because all these gangsters are coming after him until he can determine who actually pulled it off so this was one of those inflection points in the city where the city was trying to prove that it could basically play in the big leagues that it could have a Muhammad Ali fight that it could solve a big major crime this is the biggest heist in the history of Georgia to this date and it was one of the biggest heists in the country still today but certainly at that time so this was an opportunity for Atlanta which was at that time home to a lot of dreamers lot of hustlers it was not taken seriously on a national scale it wasn't New York it wasn't Chicago it wasn't La it wasn't Miami I mean it's kind of like this Southern City Atlanta right that was trying to like prove no we want to be taken seriously and it was like all right well solve this crime and don't get people robbed and killed and show that you can have a big Muhammad Ali fight and everything goes okay so anyway I kind of look at it like um it is telling the story it's a love letter to Atlanta because it really is an authentic depiction of what life was like during that time instead of 1970 Fight Night is actually based on a podcast Series right yes my fellow podcast family yeah exactly you could make our show into a series wouldn't be good I don't know what kind of a series most inovative companies would beur boy ban bread girl banana bread girl who plays you ban bread that's the question who who plays Y and who plays Jos who do you think will you're the expert here oh boy all right yes I'm going Zinda for you and then for you that's a good one yeah I went High I went I went so Josh get ready I be gentle will cuz I'm very sensitive are you well this guy's a good friend of mine so uh listen here's the movie pairing you didn't know you needs and day and Josh Gad there you go you're welcome Jaden talented funny I'm a big musical theater fan so Josh gad's right up my Alle see there you go he's my guy too I can make that happen guys so you know obviously that came from a podcast series I'm curious where you're finding your ideas a lot of stuff is based on existing IP I mean are you mostly reading you listening to a lot of podcasts where are you getting plans for your projects I'm doing all the things because you have to as a producer right now right so the industry is really tricky right now there is a constriction of content that's happening across all the media companies they just making less and IP helps to mitigate the risk right Hollywood has always been very risk averse always like following the trend what's what what just worked let's do another three of those right there's you know in theory a brand an audience some Credence to whatever this idea is versus just a pitch that will Josh and Y come up with so interestingly this actually started as a pitch for a feature film and the feature film did not go right like tried shot the wrote a script like didn't get the green light later we came back and made a podcast with the intention of telling the story like this is like a hell of a story right these elements are really interesting like let's let's get the story out there what we did along the way was we created IP and so well it's no mistake that I'm the producer of the podcast as well as the producer of the limited series and the podcast opened the door for us to then come back and revisit it I then had something tangible that I could send out the first thing I sent to Kevin Hart wasn't the pitch or me telling him about it I was like just listen to this podcast right just listen the first 20 minutes Kev and and tell me what you think and he called back and like I listen to the whole thing I love it so yes I'm listening to podcast articles are always really good I'm I'm working on a couple articles now producers we got to be smart we work hard but the best of us work smart somebody else has already gone out and done Research In Articles often times they're telling the story in a particular interesting way there's a narrative already so I'm reading a lot tons of stuff because everything's not just going to come from the brain of a screenwriter and as we all know truth is always and more interesting Than Fiction I want to ask a little bit about this being originally pitched as a feature film and then you know obviously it's going to be a limited series on peacock I think 15 years ago 20 years ago that would have been seen as a large downgrade in a lot of ways like movies was very much power mount TV wasn't quite the prestige that it was today over your time in this industry how has that shift changed the way that you approach content oh it's crazy first of all it's good because I have the ability to go out and get the biggest stars and the best talent independent of the medium right you look at fight night and you're talking about literally some of the biggest stars in the world you're talking about Sam Jackson and Kevin har and Don Cheeto and taji hon like you don't get these people if they felt like this was like the JV League or the B team right and so Josh you're absolutely right 15 years ago just television in general whatever any on television anything that wasn't like thig screen cinematic was not looked at as premium obviously we're a long way from that what that means from a producer standpoint is that I now have a lot more Avenues right I've got a wider aperture with which to make the content that I'm looking to make and I'm somebody that believes that I have to have a company that's able to play in all these different spaces because a great idea may come and I don't know the best place to exploit that idea so I need to if it's a movie great but is it a doc is it a limited series is it a television series scripted unscripted digital like now you've got major stars and talent playing in all those spaces and most importantly the audiences are very open to Top Talent being and they by the way they expect top tier talent in all those spaces you mentioned that Post strike there's obviously constriction less stuff is getting made I'm curious how your navigating that you gave us one example which is obviously taking things back to the drawing board coming back with a different way of telling the story I guess like what are conversations like with Studios or Distributors right now in terms of specifically like the constriction of content like just how much harder is it to get something made it's tough it used to be if you come in with like a pitch a great idea and it would be like oh wow we love this idea we'll figure it out we'll figure out who's going to star in it who's going to direct it who's going to write it no longer no no no boys and girls now you got to in and you better have a plan you know you got to come in with the great idea is just the start I liking it to um having the most amazing shoes to running shoes at the starting line of a marathon right you're ready you're there you're laced up you're at the start you still got to run 26.2 miles people that's actually the work a good idea is only being prepared at the start of the race you got to execute everything is so execution dependent now so yes they're looking for full packages like who's going to start it who's going to write it who's going to direct it what has happened is that from a business standpoint for a moment Hollywood like went all in on streaming and it's no secret that now there is the reality that streaming has not paid off from a profitability standpoint the way that the industry hoped that it would and it has not paid off terms of what was put into it the level of resources put into it is not equal out to the return so there's a pulling back now you combine that with the fact that our industry like a lot are honestly still recovering from the global pandemic right we put all this money into streaming and and uh change viewing habits and told audiences stay home stay home you can watch it at home fine no problem then you couldn't go out you had to stay home right now we're realizing you know what actually in terms of profitability theatrical films a big successful theatrical film is uh much more profitable for a studio than a big streaming project relatively then you couple that with two strikes two work stoppages last year those were major and then you know the threat of a work stopage this year and the the the cumulative effect of all that means that you've got a lot of nervous folks within the studio system within the media Finance system I should say and a lot of downsizing and consolidation that's happening unfortunately you got a lot of jobs that are being lost in the headlines everywhere it's not specific to one particular company it's Paramount Global just had a large layoff as we as we record this that came out I think it was yesterday or the day before Warner brother's Discovery before that I mean it's affecting all sectors especially in the entertainment business so what that means back to your question jazz is that when you come in and you're saying Hey I want $100 million for said projects there's a different level of risk tolerance now than there was even even 24 months ago and so you got to come in and you got to be able to sell it in a way that is undeniable we've been talking a lot about brand Partnerships with movies and with properties recently Deadpool Wolverine I think is a big example of that Ryan Reynolds is obviously a big marketing Guru at this point to to a certain exent how much is that part of the pitch process as well does there have to be a built-in marketing process brand Partnerships to maximize the finances of these projects certainly helps anything you can do to help offset cost help offset the level of resources that a single entity has to commit anything you can do and obviously the combination of there being an oversaturation of content there's so much stuff out there means that advertisers are fighting for the eyeballs they're trying to they're in the content that everybody's going to see so if you got something like Deadpool Wolverine that it's going to get millions and millions of eyeballs right A lot of people are going to see it that's Prime real estate for an Advertiser for a brand and so it's all part of the same ecosystem like I tell people all the time don't think of it like well this is the movie business this is the advertising business this is the television business this is the podcast business no all part of one single ecosystem that is trying to get you dear consumer to pay attention and then ultimately to spend your money be it spend your money on the specific piece of content or on a brand that is associated with that content so Fight Night is on peacock there's obviously tons of distribution services out there how do you pick the right home for your projects is it based on pre-existing relationships do you pitch to specific streaming services or Studios what does that look like it's Project Specific honestly right like this is certainly a relationship driven business and so I and Kevin Hart who produced The Limited series together both have a pre-existing relationship with the NBC Universal family and peacock is under that family however every streamer is not known for everything as much as they want to be you do have to think about your audience that's me I always start and end with the audience and I want to make sure that I'm lining up my content with a platform that makes sense to the enduser to the consumer for my content to be there so Fight Night sitting on peacock which is known for belir Best Man Holiday Poker Face the office like it's known for dramas it's known for comedy it's known for African-American content we thought that this would sit very well on that platform and it helped that there was an existing relationship but I do think you have to be kind of strategic as a producer about where you're placing things now in this tough environment sometimes you're trying to just get anybody right you're just like listen who will distribute who will finance who will do it free whoever listen I yes please yes I'll take two absolutely audiences also the content is what drives them if in you guys group chat you're maybe you're not on tub every day but you hear about this great thing and it's only on 2B you'll find it you'll go there even if it's just for that thing you go there and find it that is the another good thing about the environment that we're in where you know you've got multiple media platforms that are accessible to everybody if the price Point's not too high you'll go just for a particular show if everybody's talking about it there's a need or a desire for you to see that show you've said before in interviews that you you know make films for an audience and it just so happens to have an African-American cast does fight night kind of fit in that mold do you still have the same philosophy you know I think fight night was so specific because it is a true story sometimes I will say that I will I will have something pitched to me and it's not Pitch for black audience white audience Latino audience it's just a a good movie good concept and I will say I really like that and I'd like to see that through an African-American lens because I do have strength with that audience because that's something that's very interesting to me feel like it's very specific with fight night because it was a true story like these characters were who they were right like chicken man was an African-American Hustler living in Atlanta in the 70s there wasn't a version where you know I was going to get go after Timothy sham made it play chicken man right spoiler right it just Timothy's great it wasn't a fit for this one and so when I thought about this cast honestly I thought about okay it's a project that is set in a world of largely African-American characters like I want to get the black Avengers I want to get the best black actors that I can get so you literally got Don cheel which you know by the way and Terence Howard if you know you know you know what I mean so I'm just saying you know what I mean and right you got Sam you got Don you got I mean come on I mean who knows maybe Kevin will be in a Marvel movie soon you never know you know what I mean you can see him who's I'm surprised that hasn't happened who's the shortest comic book character out there we need our comic book fans to help us out I don't know well Ant-Man already Tak other than Ant-Man does Ant-Man have a sidekick what can we pitch can we pitch Kevin Hart in the comedic Marvel universe so you have a book coming out soon called who better than you the art of healthy arrogance and dreaming big explain to us without giving away the whole book how to be healthfully arrogant you know here's the thing so I've been I've been working Hollywood for quite a while I've been uh I've been pretty successful I'm I'm pretty proud of my my career and Hollywood is an industry it's super high profile it's super sexy especially from the outside looking in it can be very adversarial it can be very contentious at times and there's a lot of Egos and my job is to manage those Egos and one of the things that I talk about in the book reason I wrote the book was because I realized I had all these stories from the front lines of Hollywood that I had never told before so the book's not a memoir it's not autobiography it's literally me telling a collection of stories of things that I've had to deal with in this crazy damn industry and I mean it's crazy our producer told me a story about you trying to get Kevin Hart to stop partying with Carmelo Anthony Carmelo Anthony threatened to kill me in a New York City nightclub because Kevin Hart Kevin Hart was trying to sink the biggest movie of both of our careers Mind by leaving s and flying off and I was trying to get him back and Carmelo had other plans and it went sideways right now what can you learn from that dear listener who may not have to be in a nightclub with Kevin Hart cell Anthony the point of it is that you gotta expect the unexpected you got to be prepared and the healthy arrogance thing that you talked about is that I am somebody that believes you can't just think you're going to be successful you can't just plan to be successful you got to know that you deserve success that it is for you the most successful people that I know I talk about this in the book and I've been around a lot of people I mean some of the biggest most successful people in the world however you want to quantify success money Fame power whatever the most successful ones very very clearly feel like their success they were predestined for Success it is not something that they H for that's healthy arrogance a level of confidence not arrogance without substance not saying I'm great and you don't back it up I'm great I'm willing to work for it and show you and not only do I know I'm great but it's important that you also know that I'm great because that's necessary for me to ultimately make my goals and the great way to do it is for our goals to be intertwined and so in Hollywood as a producer dealing with all these big famous actors I have to get them to understand Kevin Hart yes you could party in this New York nightclub and have the time of your life or you and I together our goals are intertwined we can work together to have a big huge number one movie and then we can party forever and that movie was R orong this is crazy we got 5 Seconds to throw it back this ain't no damn video game no it's probably still driving with because it happened in the back you can't drive it now and it turned out to be the biggest opening at the time of mar Luther King weekend but it took that because because he was listen Kevin is an amazing little man what's up little man what's up little man what you about 310 311 yeah but you know what I'mma do grow what you going to do stretch incredible little man he's got a big old heart but he also is Satan's spawn he is also a devil child you can tell him I said that he is an evil evil little man both things can be true and there have been many times getting clipped for for Instagram I love it I stand by there have been many times that he and others have driven me almost to death's door but that is what this industry takes and so there are lessons that you can learn from what I have been through that you can apply I promise you you can apply to many other areas and aspects of your life even if you got nothing to do with Hollywood now you are an incredibly Charming Man so I'm sure I thank you yes yeah I just I'll coment you it's true she never says that about me I never I pipe down Josh Gad it's my turn right now Z zind is talking okay go ahead more more no I'm just asking you know can you give me an example of a time when You' used healthy arrogance to your advantage like I'm sure you're an incredible salesman I'm sure that's part of it listen one of the things I talked about in the book is how I'm sure there are not many people that can claim this but I was able to get the biggest star in the world at that time and even now who said absolutely no way am I doing this and I was able to change this person's mind not once but twice and that person is this Beyonce this is Beyonce this is Beyonce yes and she's lovely absolutely love she's amazing and she was like it's great your great will I so appreciative there's no way I'm doing this right and this is twice she said that you know the coonis you got to have right to Beyonce in the eye and she's telling you very nicely like there is no way stop asking you know it's like right at that level when somebody's like listen I've told you once I'm telling you for the third time there won't be a fourth time the fourth time I'm chopping your head off you know what I mean like I was right at that line of don't ask again and it takes a level of healthy arrogance and confidence that I had something that I was selling that was going to be good for her and good for both of us and I was able to do that twice and so yes it takes that I think it's in the book but you talked about how it was difficult to convince exec to Green Light Stomp the Yard and I guess I'm curious both how you did it but also when you decide to give up on something that's something we talk about too because like everybody deals with that right it's like there's passion and there's that stiven and there is I'm never ever going to give up and then there's reality and and you got to make sure that what you're doing makes sense and you're not the person that is like you know 50 years old still trying to chase a 30y old dream that is never going to happen sometimes you do have to Pivot and it's difficult sometimes to figure that out with Stomp the Yard you're absolutely right I went out and Stomp the Yard was my first number one movie it almost didn't happen because nobody wanted to make it I went out to Hollywood and and stomp theart is set at a black college in HBCU and when I was pitching this years ago HBCU were not a thing that were widely known especially outside of the southeast and within like black communities so I would go to White Executives and be like I got this great movie instead of the black college it's about these returns they go whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa wait a minute wait you mean black college what is that they be like well you know it's College predominantly African-American they be like wait a minute is that the thing you guys in the South you know segregation's over right like like you can go to a real like this is conversation that I would have they be like you know you don't have to do that like that like they it was like I was saying like yes I've got this you know in the south at the Negro counter you know what I mean when I use the the colored washroom like it was that kind of awkward like well meaning from these Executives and I was like okay no guys that's not it's okay like we want to be there you know so a movie industry Executives famously a very diverse and inclusive group yeah exactly so I they didn't get it they didn't get it and I got told no by every studio and I had to change and pivot the pitch and I went back to the same Executives with that movie pitched differently I literally like turned it not 180 degrees but maybe like 90 degrees you know I had to tilt it to make it palatable and that's another thing that no matter what industry you're in you got to figure out what does the person want we all get so caught on what I want okay I want this I'm going to go pitch so and so or I'm going to go ask my boss or or somebody of power somebody need something from I'm G to ask them for what I want first you should figure out what do they want is there a way you can figure out how to align what they want with what you want then your chance for Success goes up exponentially that's exactly what I did because I wanted to make this movie about life at a black college Hollywood had no interest in making that Hollywood did have an interest though in making a dance movie because dance movies were working at that time and so what I did was I shifted it I already had stepping right that fraternity and sororities do we all know what that is I already had that that was that was what my movie was basically about I went back and pitched a dance movie that happened to take place against an interesting backdrop where you had someone who did traditional dance moves and then he went and hooked up with these other dancers who did a totally new type of dance combined the dances and did a dance competition that was basically the pitch for Stomp the Yard that got it Greenland in Hollywood it satisfied what the executives wanted it also satisfied a big audience who wanted to see themselves on screen HBCU audiences and fraternities and sororities and by the way the execution was really well done because it did have great dance scenes in it but I also was able to show this backdrop that was very important to me so was able to sell it in a way that was palatable to the folks that I needed to support me that's something that you can apply across any industry we had Isa Ray on the podcast a couple months ago or a few months ago now girl she's the best you know we were talking about whether it's harder or easier for creators of color and she was you know one of the things she said was like you couldn't make a black Seinfeld like you couldn't pitch it it's a show about nothing yeah yeah hey that's true I'm curious whether you think the environment is easier or whether you think it's more difficult as fewer things are getting produced for creators of color specifically yeah it's always harder here's why because there's always going to be less right and this is not just creators of color it could be like lgbtq creators anybody that's a marginalized group if you're trying to make things specific to that group anytime they make less they're already like making less of yours so just it's just a math that aside more content is being made now that Fe feachers storylines actors themes of communities that normally aren't showcased in Hollywood content more of that's being made now than ever before because it makes money that's the key it's not because all of a sudden Hollywood woke up and said you know what this is our amazing social agenda and we're Progressive and this is important no what happened is that will Packer has made a billion dollars at the box office and EA Ray has made a bunch of money and a lot of people watch insecure black panther made billions around the world and Tyler Perry makes a lot of money like all these creators who do center storylines around African-Americans have been successful and Hollywood is nothing nothing if not reactive not proactive reactive during the strike one of the biggest topics was generative AI on screen how do you think it'll help producers and creators and artists and how do you think it could hinder them no we're all dead it's we're all going out of business it's going this is the negative side time for the podcast this is the it's over it's over guys any silver you're not in the industry now don't try it's over we got like 30 minutes before AI is going to like Josh and Y this is their last B they don't even know it we got yeah oh yeah I know know easily replaced by generic generative AI output no no we'll replace you with a better you that's what you got to understand it will be your voice your menis it will be you but better that's the scary thing about AI you know the best version obviously is where it augments storytellers human storytellers and creators and gives us tools to do what we do better I made a movie called beast and it was starring a youra and you see that yep and the man eating lion we use AI CGI in that H's been using it for years I I had to do a full body scan of inra ela and and do certain scenes that weren't safe and he had to like fight the lion like but it wasn't him it was like you know you you intercut it with him but you have to do that the lion obviously was was computer generated hey come on come on if we can figure out the right balance that still allows human creators to be in the driver's seat that is the best version because AI can make our stuff more engaging and we can do it less expensively and thus we can go to whole new worlds here's the problem the industry and human nature is not such that we try to protect the artist we just say all right we're trying to get from A to Z like what's the fastest cheapest way to Z and it doesn't matter who you kind of step on or run over I think that it's it's concerning because it's a power that we have to adapt to but it's not the first time I'm been in the game long enough to remember when there were filmmakers that said I'll never not shoot on film I'll never shoot digital it's film that's what it is you know audiences care they can tell the difference cut to today and I dare you to find a high-profile filmmaker that's shooting on film exclusively over and over again with great success and I certainly dare you to find audiences that can tell the difference so I think that that's the fear if the bar kind of lowers in terms of the human element and audiences don't care and it makes money then you'll see more of it but you'll still need people to manage it so from a producer produc orial standpoint you know you're like I'll be fine listen I'm healthily arrogant so I believe that they need me okay that's the thing that's where the healthy arrogance comes in guys they can't do it without me and I got to go out and prove that sentiment we'll be back with Will at the end of the show but first a quick break followed by my interview with Anu dugall the founding partner of the female Founders [Music] fun a new duall is a founding partner of female Founders fund we met up at Camp FFF last month an annual gathering in the Hamptons for female Entre entrepreneurs creators and investors an new shared her thoughts about what's going on in the world of startup funding especially for female Founders and the effect of this current recessionary period with female Founders fund celebrating their 10th anniversary I wanted to know if she thinks conditions have improved for women trying to launch new businesses there are a couple different ways to answer that question when I first started fundraising for fund one uh we were at a point in time when you really had no female role models so you know 700 meetings plus to raise $ 5.85 million and I think a lot of that was due to the fact that we just didn't have women that I could point to as stories of success and so I think at a high level you know you've seen that shift pretty significantly you now have like household names that have been built in the last 10 years so I think that's one way to answer the question the second would be you know we track series a rounds and we started in 2013 and we do it every year and we look at New York and San Francisco and just to give you a sense of perspective so in 2013 in New York there was one series a round LED by female founder and that was um Shan from Zola last year there were 23 series a rounds led by female Founders so while I think it's easy to point to the 2% and say that that's not moving I think if you take more of a Bottoms Up approach and look at the fact that you know you have to start somewhere before those big numbers move I think it's really important to kind of highlight that and then the the third example I'll give which I talked about yesterday was the fact that you know in the history of the New York Stock Exchange I believe there were less than 20 companies that were started by women that went public and in 2021 there were seven so you know those are all I think pretty interesting examples of how you know you're starting to see real change have you been keeping track of what's going on with say like Fearless fund I have kind of tangentially so the VC has been targeted by an anti affirmative action lawsuit by conservative activists and I'm curious you know how you think about that these days I mean activists are also targeting LPS for example so they don't donate to female lead funds or funds for people of color yeah we haven't actually face that directly specifically with Fearless fund it was more focused on a grant program that they had started and so I think we're aware of what's happening and we have you know obviously great legal council but we haven't yet directly been impacted at all are you concerned about it though there's so many other things to be concerned about that this is not it's not top of mine for me it's you know looking at the macro environment how that's impacting our portfolio companies looking at our fundraise which has been incredibly challenging just given market dynamics so those two things are you know occupying a lot of my time you mentioned yesterday that we're kind of in a funding drought which I think is true yeah tell me how that's impacted your business I was commenting yesterday at dinner that it's really interesting right now now because typically when you are going through kind of a recession or recessionary period it's really felt by everyone right and so with 08 you know the banking crisis everyone knew we were in that I think what's challenging here is that it's very specific to Tech and Venture and when you think about why this is happening there are a couple reasons so one obviously interest rates being where they are second the IPO Market really being frozen for extended number of years now which means that you don't have liquidity which means that LPS are not investing in funds and it also means that growth investors are being incredibly cautious they're looking at their own Investments and they're saying that you know these companies are probably not valued at what we paid two years ago and so they're not willing to kind of move forward and put more Capital into other companies because they're just trying to manage their existing portfolio that's really challenging because you have now not just 6 months or 12 months you have 18 months of a market that's just Frozen and that means you don't have exits it means you have I think it's the number is 1,200 or 1300 privately held unicorns that are not profitable that will not go public that's a tremendous amount of value creation or value you know right where LPS are like okay we know that this is going to go to zero it hasn't happened yet and so everyone's in this weird standstill and I think that's impacted the fund in two ways so one obviously incredibly difficult to raise a growth round right incredibly difficult and that means that Founders have had to as christe mentioned you know be much more disciplined and figure out ways to kind of survive basically we're also seeing companies shut down and you know that's happening you know we have a company 30 million in Revenue their debt financing got pulled and you know it's just over and so you have these for me personally like such sad stories where these Founders have spent 8 to 10 years on a business and just because of these macro conditions are kind of in the position that they're in and so that part of is really hard and then I think the second part from you know a fundraising perspective is that we've been lucky enough to have four exits and returned significant amount of capital but people are just not writing checks and so when you're a large multi-stage fund and you know instead of raising 20 billion you raise two you can still you know survive right you can keep your team and all that but when you're a small fund it's much more challenging you know I was struck yesterday and also during the Talks by how many of the female Founders here have founded consumer goods companies Marina lude was speaking earlier she has a shoe brand glossier is here Nancy twine who gave an award to founded booo those are companies that I I guess have seen been very affected by the downturn very much so in part because like honestly investors are realizing like in what world does you know you have to sell a lot of shoes to make billion dollars compared to like the scaling opportunities of a B2B SAS company I'm curious whether how you think about the companies you want to invest in yeah no definitely 10 years ago and that's why it's interesting to have this reflection you know 10 years back like DDC was what everyone in yor everything yeah and was looking at and I think you know you look at the public market comps now of any of those companies that on public and they're terrible they're trading less than what they've raised and so I think the learning from a investment standpoint for us at female Founders fund has really been where is there still opportunity within consumer and beauty and personal care you know we had a great exit with Billy you've seen you know Rio had a great exit and you have a very acquisitive base of corporate companies that multiples are very high margins are great repeat rates are great and so we have remained active and continue to remain active in Beauty and personal care and then I would say the second category which is interesting because it's D Toc well I should say it's consumer but it's not D Toc is you know we've made two Investments one in a company called Beyond Arrow which is a hydrogen powered private plane company and then the second in a luxury vintage inspired EV which is like $500,000 car yeah what's interesting about those models is that yes you're a consumer facing business but there's such strong technical Talent behind that yeah and you're also not putting money out onto the internet to try to acquire your customers that is like just gone social media rois have gone down by so much that we're we're not even touching that right so you have like a head of sales who's like takes a customer out for lunch and then gets $100,000 deposit right that's great you also only need to sell however many of those and so I think the technical Talent the high price point and like the differentiated sales model particularly in these sectors has been really interesting and I think you also have a very acquisitive you know set of that that landscape is much more robust than a plate company for example that makes a lot of sense are there any new areas that you are particularly excited about if you say AI you got to tell me more yeah yeah so I I will take the contrary approach where I I think a lot of money is going to be lost in Ai and I think there's a lot of wraparound solutions that in the next iteration of chat GPT are going to be just not relevant um can you give me an example I not going to name any companies but you know you look at the travel space for example right and it's like oh we're going to create a great tool that enables you to plan a trip and it's like that is going to be obsolete pretty soon and I just don't think you're going to have multiple Point solutions for an AI experience I think that they're going to be the large players that win and I think almost similar to crypto like VCS need a place to put their money right so anyway AI is is not necessarily a place that we're spending a lot of resources on but I would say climate Tech I mentioned and Beyond arrow and this car company we're seeing a lot more in terms of deal flow and then I think we're also excited about the opportunities and the potential whether it's in the software or Hardware space and I think that started you know last January and we've continued to see a lot of momentum in terms of your investing philosophy you know I speak to some investors who are like I really invest in a Founder right and others who are like founder almost doesn't matter I invest in the business model I'm guessing it's a mixture of both right everything's a spectrum but tell me about how you think about that I think at seed it leans more heavily for us towards the founder I think it's important to obviously recognize the Tam and you know Market opportunity and the solution and what is the actual product itself but you're betting on people at the end of the day and so we're not necessarily a thematic fund like we're not Guided by these are the only areas we're going to touch yeah we just talked about beauty and electric yeah exactly yeah but we have a point of view in terms of here's where there's opportunity one of our early Investments was Kate Ryder from Maven she' never worked in healthcare and nobody really knew what Women's Health was um when she started but she had a really strong vision and I think you know incredibly resilient kind of human and she created kind of a a category that didn't exist and so the B was very much on her who are some of the female Founders you are most excited about at the moment iloa beo um they just had their test flight which is super exciting I was like you're 27 and you built a plane yeah like that's just so badass and then we invested in a company called array gray which um reverses and slows growth I have been very interested in that company for personal reasons yes yeah she's here she's here so big fan of what they've done and I think the fact that 40% of their target market is male organically is I mean that doubles your Tam right so compared to other Beauty Brands so that one we're very excited about and then another company she got covid so she couldn't come but um we invested in a company called branch which is trying to extend fertility care and make it more accessible in tier 2 cities using a software solution in terms of the founders here what is sort of the biggest Insight you've had based on all these conversations what is a lesson you've learned like over the past couple days I would say it's not necessarily a lesson but I think often as like a fund manager or as a Founder you're operating in a vacuum and I think just kind of sharing where people are in their journey and kind of the struggles that they're going through and we hear this from everyone it's like you're not alone right it's it's easy to kind of be in that bubble of like my team my fund raise my whatever but I think just having that moment to kind of feel like okay this is like a universal experience and there are other people that are struggling as well okay it's time to wrap up the show and we decided to actually switch things up with keeping tabs this week we were having such a good time talking to will Packer that we asked him a few Rapidfire questions at the end of the interview to see what's catching his attention in pop culture today he started by telling us his favorite guilty pleasure movie Godzilla vcom right Godzilla XCOM the most recent one it's fun like I am somebody that believes that audiences right now like the world is so serious and so heavy give me something mindless and fun you don't have to be totally grounded in reality and that was kind of the textbook definition of that that's how I feel about minions yeah the despic me franchise is a go is a go-to for you yes shout out to my guy Chris melandre he's the brain behind that Chris is a great guy so talented yes all right same question for shows what's a show you've seen recently uh recency bias but I gotta go house a dragon probably because I recently growing up I was a D and D nerd Dungeons and Dragons like Thrones all that stuff is me there was a really cool feature in the New York Times about the 50th anniversary of Dungeons and Dragons coming out where they featured a bunch of players yeah it's like Anderson Cooper's a DN nerd they have some other people that they featured in there it's great if you're into DND yeah no I gotta check that out it's really cool it's really cool that's awesome come on nerds unite yeah next one is podcast okay what's a podcast you listen to I'm a podcast producer so I'm listening to a lot of it so recently Tiffany cross she has a podcast that I produced but it's called cross generations and I have nothing to do with the creative she's the driving force I obviously support her but um it's about three generations of black women talking about interesting topics and so I just love that format I think that's really good also Sports podcast I recently um was very fortunate to be able to become uh one of the newest uh minority owners of the Atlanta Falcons and so I'm listening to a lot of I was always a big football fan and now I've got an even you know bigger reason to listen to sports podcast and keep up with that so I'm listening to a few Sports podcast as well you probably can't say but what was your feeling on the Michael penx pick definitely can't say but I'm excited about the season I'm excited about the Falcons and what's to come how's that answer all right we got two left book you've read recently Will Smith's book has coming to mind that wasn't the most recent one I read but I really enjoyed his audio book you know what else tools of Titans that's another one I I'll put out there it's called tools of Titans um the author is escaping me right now but those are two that I would say that um that are good I like a good motivational book I'm also a big audio book guy you know I'm moving around working out running whatever I can be listening and I like it in an author's voice so now last one and this duv Tails perfectly with your last answer what is the single best piece of advice you've ever received give us your wisdom oh it was my dad words that I live by today he said and this was when I was young and I think I had a homework assignment or something and all my friends were were going out to play and I hadn't done my homework I was procrastinating he just very simply said to me he said listen you can play now but you're GNA pay later but if you pay now then you will be able to play later he said it's your choice pay now play later or play now and pay later it's up to you and that is literally a every entrepreneur can live by and you are absolutely right yes that exactly what I said to Kevin Hart with a bunch more cursing in it put a bunch of expletives and get your ass you're hanging out with carelo he doesn't even have a ring shout out to Carmelo don't listen to a Melo Josh is JH I love I'm a Boston Celtics fan I was just going to say I was going to say he's a Lakers or a Celtics fan I can tell that's what's happening that's all right you you guys just wait till the Atlanta Hawks I'm ATL all day wait till the Hawks wait till we you know get it all together and maybe I'll switch my allegiance I don't care I don't care that much come on yes come to the HW don't don't worry Nick Celtics Lakers their bandwagons are full you you be you be at the back hanging off the tail pipe for the bus here you can sit up front you can sit premium you can be up there we got wine and cheese we got champagne we got all that because we don't have a lot of people so we we got room for I like that my my husband is a Rockets fan and and you know what I feel like ruining my marriage I think that's I think that's a great plan apologies to Mr yes I feel like that's my I'm responsible for that now my bad my bad bro well this was great thank you so much for coming on the show this was super fun this was fun it's a lot of fun thanks for having me guys let's do it again [Music] sometime and that's it for most Innovative companies our show is produced by Avery miles and Blake odm editing by Julia shoe mix and sound designed by Nicholas taus and our executive producer is Josh Christensen remember again to subscribe rate and review and we will see you next week [Music]