Martin Sheen | Extended Interview | THE THREAD Documentary Series

Introduction and philosophy of life Martin Sheen interview take one marker Martin thank you for doing this tell me that philosophy of your life well I've often said that acting is what I do for a living but activism is what I do to stay alive you've been an actor since a very early age at what point did that become true for you I Early life and acting career don't have any conscious memory of ever not being an actor I didn't know that that's what you called it when I was a child till I started going to the movies around age five or six and gradually it dawned on me that I was like those people up on the screen and it was a a a mighty possession you know it possessed me and it gave me a possession of myself I knew uh that I was going to do that thing that I couldn't identify but I I knew it in the depths of my being uh and that I knew that if I didn't do it I would never be happy and I would never be free so it was a foregone conclusion in a way and I I I never wavered from that my whole life I I I loved doing it you know being creative being an actor my whole life and uh as I say it it was instinct ual and it was necessary for my survival did it run in your family was Family background, heritage, and influence there any Heritage uh nothing this was you no the only uh relative that I learned later uh was an actor was uh my Uncle Bobby failen in Ireland my my mother's brother uh who was a uh um very active in the ira during the rising and from 19 16 he spent a couple of years in prison and uh he he was he was known as an amateur actor so when the family began to see me uh doing plays in high school uh they they thought but it was a you know an Irish thing from Bobby my my Uncle Bobby whom incidentally I never met but uh he was my my mother's youngest brother but how interesting that he was an actor and an actor activist oh he was very active yeah he uh he was quite extraordinary a lot of stories about him was the activist tradition part of your family growing up or or or was that too something that you came to on your own I wouldn't have called myself an activist when I was a child or a teenager but I I was schooled and nourished by these two immigrants you know my father was Spanish my real name is Ramon estas uh Mar Sheen is a stage name that I I never changed officially I'm still Ramone if I get stopped for a traffic violation or if I'm arrested for at a protest the only ID that is acceptable is with Ramon it's on my driver's license passport all my official papers Sheen is miy up and uh if this gig doesn't work out I'll go back to Ramon you know but uh my my father and mother both uh struggled you know my in fact my mother was was sent to stay with a cousin uh at the end of uh the the the fight with the Brits uh but at the start of the Civil War in 1921 uh and that was in a lot of ways worse than the fight with England because they were fighting among themselves and so her family was very well involved in the rising in in the in the revolution and they they sort of landed on uh um you know the anti-treaty side so when the Civil War started they were they didn't know who was going to win and they sent her to to live with a cousin in Ohio to wait out and just see what happens so that that was two years you know from 1921 to 23 when they finally uh and devil era made the peace treaty and established a republic that took quite a while but uh so she stayed in with a cousin in Ohio and meanwhile she met my dad whom she called the the handsome spanner uh my dad was from a little village in Galia in pvus and suta revolta near Tui which is near Vigo uh this uh handsome GGO and they met in citizenship school which they had in those days and uh he couldn't speak English he he spoke Italian and uh Spanish and Portuguese so she taught him English her native language was Gaelic she spoke gaic as well and she was uh a secretary she knew how to type and and do shorthand which was a great skill in those days and so they met and they were married in 1927 in what I I later be uh came to realize was called The Immigrant church it was St Joseph's in Dayton Ohio it's still there yeah and uh yeah and so they started raising a family and uh uh they had 12 pregnancies um but 10 survived nine boys and one girl I was the Seventh Son Well my brother Alonso was the Seventh Son of seventh pregnancy to survived but the one male had died so he moved up to the seventh to survive but I was the seventh so we always vied about who was the seventh son I yourself yeah uh and so uh but it was a natural progression to uh you know we were Democrats of course you know uh Roosevelt uh Truman Democrats and and eventually of course Kennedy Democrats but there was just this it was taken for granted you were you were unioned if you could be I found it Union where I started the union when I was a boy at the local Country Club you know private club and uh you know I'd been there since 1949 and so 1954 you were a caddy I was a caddy yeah and you started a cat's Union I started Caddying and early activism a caddy Union in 1954 yeah it lasted about 72 hours I got fired it was the first time I heard the phrase you're on private property hit the road and I said wow that's interesting I've been here all this time eventually they called me back because I was one of the better caddies and they needed me people were asking uh uh for me uh so but the the lessons I learned in in that uh situation were lifelong you know that you've got to you you've got to choose sides you you you cannot not choose sides and and be honest with yourself it it never mind what anyone else thinks about you it's how you think about yourself so yeah I was an activist without calling myself an activist I was living in times that I was very aware of and I I had an opinion about them and I showed it with the way I lived and the way I acted at least I tried to it didn't always succeed but um yeah that those were uh very formative years and I CED from uh 1949 until I left home in 1958 uh well I we CED from the early spring till the late fall so the last experience I had was in the fall of 1958 in the in January of 1959 I was in New York pursuing a a career as an actor you know so the caddy thing didn't work out it didn't work out but I still know how to do it I I love the fact that uh Martin Sheen has never been arrested uh because it's always that's true yeah romon has been arrested any number of times oh yeah for his activism how many have you lost count I I was keeping I silly but it was so I there was there were so many issues that were so vital through the particularly the 80s and the 90s uh that I felt compelled my chief Focus was nuclearism anti-nuclear ISM because I felt that our country and and the entire Western Civilization had had fallen uh to the idolatry of nuclearism it was like a religion we believed or our our countries belied that that was a source of protection well we were taught our only protection was trusting each other and trusting in in God and we had a responsibility to protect the the planet uh and that these weapons were like uh a form of of great evil and it was like you no one could use them they even invented the phrase mutually assured destruction uh with the Soviet Union and the United States and everybody else you know agreed that all the nuclear powered Nations so if if you used one it was like a guy going into a bank puts a gun to his head and says give me all your money or I'll shoot it's suicide and none of that has changed and we're still uh arming and rearming and and uh thinking that that's the way um to protect ourselves and it's it's it's horrible and the amount of dough that it cost to uh Implement those weapons that keep them in a in a ready State and the enormous uh risk of accident uh is is now more than ever terrible with the current war between between with Russia's invasion of Ukraine and the horrors that they've Unleashed and the threats of of a nuclear uh bomb Martin I'm doing some math in my head and and I'm thinking Memories of World War II and anti-nuclear activism about two things one is you may you're very young but you may have a memory do you remember the bomb being dropped uh the nuclear bomb when the US dropped it uh no uh that would have been in 45 uh no I I I I knew the war had ended I remember the parades and and I could see from our backyard there was a Warren Avenue was a an Avenue to um the uh you know the downtown and so forth so we could see parades going by at a distance and I remember the the toilet paper flying out of the the apartments around us and the houses and people banging on anything they could find pots and pans hollering and hooping and all so I knew the war had ended but no I was not so you about 5 years old is that right I was born in 1940 yeah I was five so let me ask you you're coming aware of things at that young age you knew that there had been a war going on right at that same time President Roosevelt died do you have any memory of the reaction when President Roosevelt died I had no memory of Roosevelt at all Truman yes very much so because he took over uh the rest of Franklin Roosevelt's term and then won his own uh uh four years but no I I I be I became I became very aware what was going on uh in Korea primarily because my one of my older brothers uh was a marine and and did a year in did more than a year in combat in Korea and how it affected him and and us you know of all the nine uh men in my family all my brothers uh seven were were were two were Marines one Army and the rest were Navy you know so we had a very um kind of front seat when anything that involved the military would happen because uh you know the brothers were always in in uh in root to one place or another and so yeah I remember the tension how did you feel about war in that context I've always thought of you as someone as a man of deep faith and a man of Peace but a man of Justice in fighting for a just cause did you feel that your brothers were involved in that with Korea or did you have an opinion how did how did you feel about that war as far as any War uh when I was growing up it it as long as we were involved we felt it was just it you know all of the the society the whole culture supported uh any effort where our uh Lads were sent to fight whether it was Korea or Vietnam or anywhere else in the Suz or or in any other uh situation so it it I I only came to a a better understanding of uh how horrible it was and how unjust it was uh for you know all the obvious reasons uh in my later teens it was just part of a cultural U uh you know uh Evolution that you know and the movies you know I saw all the all the soldiers I wanted to you know be a soldier and and you know and March into you know any kind of situation whether Europe or in a Asia so by the late 50s you began to look at this and McCarthyism and political awakening question things and and this is after a period of the whole anti-communism fervor and McCarthyism do you have memories of McCarthyism yes uh mcarthism was a was a very uh uh very clear uh problem you know for and we knew it at the time because the rosenbergs were front and center at that time and not many people were aware of what was going on but I remember when they were executed and uh I think it was 1954 and and I could not believe that this was a you know a righteous conscientious thing to do and and that that's where I began to question one the death penal but also uh just the the injustice uh what was clear to us at the time was they were they were scapegoats they were offered up Visa the you know the Red Scare and the McCarthy era and and uh what was going on red baiting the red baiting yes of course so uh that was in fact the rosenbergs were in in in a very uh clear way of an Awakening to me personally that there's there's something not right going on here this cannot be right that was a a political a spiritual a physical Awakening to what my uh responsibility was you know and so this is still you're still young you're still in your earlier teens at this point around this time there's the Reckoning for Joe McCarthy the Army McCarthy hearings you remember watching them I don't remember uh watching them on television we didn't have a TV much later but we would see him in the movies in the news RS you know they would have a lot of footage of of world events and and National events as well and McCarthy sure I saw him in the the news real a lot you know and the heard about the Hollywood 10 that uh were you know accused of uh of uh I guess it's being unpatriotic to begin with but they did a year in prison all those guys they were my heroes you know Trumbo andon Trumbo yes I years later I got a chance to meet him and and told him how I felt and uh told him I was meeting him about the possibility of playing and Johnny got his gun the movie that he was you know he wrote it but he was going to direct it and and uh yeah it was great meeting I just wanted to meet him you know you're a boy and you were watching Film influences, James Dean, and Marlon Brando up on the screen and you knew you wanted to be this remember what you watched do you remember what films or what when you were small that that oh T I can't remember a lot of the films I saw as a child but I do remember uh pre-teen and teenage are right right through uh James Kagney and and Humphrey Bard and all the tough guys you know at Warner Brothers yeah they were they were my heroes Spencer Tracy particular I love Spencer Tracy Kagney was uh he was chief he was my chief uh Idol and then one night somebody told me that I had to see this guy uh in a film that uh was playing in the local theater and it was only going to play another night I think it was and uh and it was a school night which I never went to the movies on but uh I went this one time and there was 1955 and it was and and it was East of Eden and that was the lifechanger I I couldn't leave the theater in those days they would run two features and uh they'd run them twice in the evening along with news reels and cartoons and I sat through uh the other movie and cartoons the news reals everything to see it again I couldn't leave the theater and I knew something had happened now because I was still do at the time I was doing plays in high school and I knew I was an actor I was it was only a matter of time before I would pursue it I was on my way to New York that was a foregone conclusion but I I was stunned and I was just stopped in my tracks that something happened that I'd never seen before and and it was James Dean and it was like wow I then I discovered he was already gone so the the disappointment I can never I'll never work with this guy you know what was he like and and then that that was the first film and now that was East of Eden and now was Rebel Without a Cause came later on that year and then the following year was giant they released giant so uh that had a profound effect and what happened clearly to me although I couldn't articulate it was that he he transcended the acting into Behavior he wasn't acting it was like when he walked out of a scene you wanted to where'd he go you know you kind of look off as if you could see outside the frame to see where he was what he was doing because he wasn't acting it was behavior and that made all the difference and you were a teenager so there's something about that moment too because he was he was a very young man he was 24 when he was killed yeah but uh yeah I was 15 he was from the next uh State he was from Indiana you know uh but he yeah that was a profound CH nobody had that kind of an effect on me in in the business you know I mean it was it was literally lifechanging for me and a lot of other actors and uh still for decades that he he still continues to have that effect as people ReDiscover him you know well the other person a lot of people describing those terms from that time time was Marlon Brando yeah who you would come to know much later in a very different context yeah uh kind of a difficult context I I think it's is that an understatement Marlon Brando was of course a a hero of James Dean long before I worked with Marlon I adored him I his work you know uh and then when I get a chance to work with him it was uh it was gratifying he was uh he he was extremely disarming he was very funny and uh and he was very caring and sweet and uh I I just uh I just adored him you know I worked with him on Apocalypse Now and he was only on the film for four or five weeks but he lived nearby and so I saw a lot of him uh on when we weren't working he'd come down and join us for dinner nights uh a lot of nights and the kids didn't know who he was and and they got to know him as this guy you know this wonderful Storyteller this sweet man who would come down and share supper with us and tell stories in August 28th 63 There was a March on Washington he was one of the Civil rights movement and March on Washington group from Hollywood who came out did you have a sent from him or from any of the others who were there and a lot of interesting people charlon hon was there a lot of surprising people did you talk about any of that and do you remember that that March do you remember that I remember the March on Washington very well in 1963 we were still living in New York at that time and so there were a lot of people coming down to Washington from New York I didn't go personally but I was sure aware of it and we I I knew Marlon was a part of it uh but the one in in our business uh that helped organize it uh gosh we just lost him a few weeks ago Harry balafon was uh probably the closest nonfamily member to Reverend King and uh helped organize so many of the campaigns including the uh the March on Washington and and and Harry helped recruit Hollywood basically including Marlon and Charlton hon as you mentioned and uh so many uh people he was responsible for bringing into the movement you did you come to know Dr King at all I I did not know Dr King uh I saw him once and it was a very auspicious meeting um I I think I fell victim to that old phrase you shouldn't Meet Your Heroes so I didn't meet him but uh in 1965 I was on Broadway in a show and U Selma happened in March of 1965 and I talked to my colleagues in this play we were in a long running play on Broadway at the time was called The Subject Was Roses and I talked to my fellow actors Jack uh Albertson and and Irene Daly at the time it was a small C but we thought we've got to do something so we went to the manager and said we'd like to do a benefit for the southern Christian leadership conference and Reverend King and to the Widow of Reverend James ree a young Minister who went down from I I believe from Michigan and he was killed in in Selma and the manager said well all right you can do the benefit but you know our theater is only 600 seats you won't make a nickel and you know enough to make it worthwhile he said why don't you go and or Jack Albertson said let's go talk to Sammy Davis he was around the corner in Golden Boy big hit musical so it was a sar mattin uh and we went over to see him between shows and and we told him what we wanted to do we wanted to answer uh Selma and Sammy said uh the the only thing I don't like about that idea is that I didn't think of it he said let's organize it and it became known as Broadway answer Selma and it was a few weeks later we had this enormous uh uh on a dark night uh good Dark Night means that everybody's off on a Monday night and Barbara strion was doing something funny girl she came Maurice valer was doing a oneman show he came Alan Arin was in enter laughing he came it was just enormous we had uh gosh everybody on Broadway at the time was part of the show and uh and Jack and I were doing a scene from The Subject Was Roses and we gathered that afternoon for a rehearsal and Sammy said you know what the show is so long would you guys mind if we kind of uh you know we don't use your scene I said I'm fine with that and he said but I could use you backstage meaning me to help the older people find chairs because it's going to be dark back there would you would you please help us out I said I will of course so I showed up and I'm helping some of the older folks uh uh who shall remain nameless because I I have a different feeling about Old Folks at this age and uh and the show was going just beautifully and Sammy was out on stage at this one point and he said ladies and gentlemen Dr Martin Luther King Jr and he point and there was Reverend King was in a box it it was like if he if he fell forward he would have fallen on the stage that's how close he was and we were all looking we didn't know he was there and it was was like and the audience went great and they stood up and and they shouted and screamed and applauded and went on and on Reverend King got up and and he took a little bow and and he sat down and they weren't having it they screaming H and he got up again he said oh you know please sit down KN and then he sat down again they ain't having it they're screaming hey you got up a third time was and he and he just you know and he just plated with them to sit down and okay so they did but we knew he was in the house and we didn't know he was coming nobody knew maybe that was part of security I never knew but there he was so it came intermission and the First Act had gotten so you couldn't get anyone on stage everybody wanted to sing play Dance whatever it was Reverend King's in Organizing Broadway Answers Selma the house you know and this is for Selma uh and so uh the second act started and I'll never forget this I had to get a seat for mauce Shaya who came in he was an elderly gentleman at the time and I said over here sir he said and I got him a seat there so he was going to go on next and Sammy was out uh singing at the start of the second act and he was on stage singing and I I stood in in the light because I had to queue uh Mr chaler to go out and the light from the stage was shining on me you know I felt this light and and and uh and I looked over kind of like that and I looked again and Reverend King was standing about 10 feet away and he was by himself I couldn't see any guards or anybody with him and my heart started pounding and I thought the first thought I had was I didn't realize how small he was and and I wanted to shrink because I was looking over the top of his head and I thought no he's 10t tall and I said oh my god there he is and my heart was saying get the blessing get the blessing and the other part of me was saying no don't bother him he's bothered all the time for God's sakes let him alone and the Heart kept saying get the blessing get the blessing just get the bless no no leave him alone for God's sake he said and and and I I knew what was happening instinctively he'd come back to say goodbye to Sammy he didn't want to bother anyone he was late he was tired and he wanted to leave so and that's exactly what was going on and it's seemed like a full two or three minutes past it was probably no more than 30 seconds Sammy came off and just walked right over to him and escorted him uh out the back stage door and I never met him so uh let that be a lesson to you it's it's a it's a great lesson because he did not he may have been shorter than you thought but he didn't disappoint he was not a a person who was ill-tempered or anything he was it and and that that moment you're describing which I you know I thought I'd studied the history of of actors and and artists coming together I'd never heard that there was a Broadway answer Selma Broadway answer Selma it was in Selma was in March of 65 so we maybe April and uh because it only took us a few weeks to organize that everybody wanted to get involved and so uh it it was very well supported and uh and you could look up I guess it's Broadway and Selma and um uh Sammy Davis was one of the big organizers uh uh with um there's a picture of he with Reverend King and it may be a Harry as well I'm not sure did anyone film or record this that you know of I don't know if it was recorded now I'm almost certain it wasn't you weren't allowed to film stage shows at that time right but there were a lot of still photographs backstage and uh around the planning of the event there you were using your Artistry you persuaded Jack Albertson an actor to use Facing prejudice your craft to help draw attention to something and to help raise some money and raise awareness and is that the first group activity remember that you're 25 at this point that you were doing something like that I was very aware in the the early 60s in New York uh of the Civil Rights Movement I mean it was in by by 65 it was international news so I was aware of it and uh I had grown up in a a culture of racism uh you know there were very few I went to an old boys uh Catholic High School uh and there were just a few Lads one of them was my closest friend who uh John Crane who's dead now got res him but he was our best man and and uh you know I I knew what racism was and even in the in the in the Catholic School setting I mean it was cultural you know people didn't think of themselves as being racists but uh they were insensitive you know I one kid in my class I remember this kid he was a sweetheart Johnny hassle rck was his name he was a big kid and he was handsome and and he was going to go to the prom with a white girl you know and I didn't give a about prom I never went to one I had no interest in it but he did and uh and it caused a a great concern among my colleagues and I remember giving a a walk to Jesus with the class you know about this crap and well did you get any of it I mean it is not I mean was there any was there any of that directed to you uh in New York I I had difficulty with with my name because there was a lot of prejudice against Hispanic IC but it it was the Puerto Rican Community you know they they were the blame for everything so they were the new immigrants they were Americans you know but people thought of them as being you know from somewhere else you know from Mars who knows where but Puerto Ricans were responsible for all the problems that that was a racist attitude in New York at the time and so h i was considered with my name uh uh Puerto Rican but so if I'd be on the phone or in any other context but without seeing my mug uh they I was considered a Puerto Rican so I said I thought oh God I got enough trouble trying to get a job he was an actor so that's why I chose she first time I used the name I remember I was doing a uh a one act play at the living theater uh I was working in the theater as a janitor and an understudy and they had these uh uh uh Monday night programs when the theater was dark and we would do these plays and I my first play that I actually got paid for was William Butler y's one act play called um uh I think it was called Purgatory I'm not sure and it was a fatherson thing and and I I I got this part and I did did this perform it was very well received and they kept it on for the next four Monday nights and so they paid me under Sheen a check $ five dollar a performance and I was worth every penny of course but I couldn't cash the check because I didn't have any um ID under Sheen I all I had was that so I wrote a letter to the Social Security Office in Washington and I put my social security card in the letter which you should never do um and I told them uh that uh this is my real name but I'm I'm now working under this name and I so I need a another card so they did they sent me back a card so I have two cards one with Ramon but the same number as the one with Sheen so I can work on either uh uh name so as I often said if the acting gig didn't work out I could go back to caddying or the car wash or any of the other things I did for a living when I wasn't acting and the whole world wants to know how did you come up with uh Choosing the name Martin Sheen Martin Sheen I I created the sheen character I was fascinated with Bishop Folton J Sheen in the 1950s there was no one on television more popular and he was really the first tea evangelist all these other guys should could have learned something from this guy he was the best public speaker imaginable I didn't understand the theology or the politics of what he was saying but I loved the way he said it he he was a very handsome man and he had fire in his eyes and he had a great speaking voice and and and he had a great sense of humor he was very disarming and every Tuesday night I think around 7 or 7:30 he gave a half hour lecture national television and the whole nation would be watching well I didn't think of him as a as a a a preacher as more as much as an actor I thought wow look at that guy you know so to as much to honor his uh his presence I yeah I just started using Sheen The Martin came from Robert Dale Martin who was the casting director at at CVS in New York when I first came there in 1958 I met him and he was very very encouraging to me and in fact we stayed friends in 1983 I did uh miniseries on John Kennedy and I asked uh if they could find Robert Dale Martin because he was also an actor and the playwright as a matter of fact is this missiles of October no it was uh it was the Kennedy series it was a many series I think two or three part in 1983 uh just called Kennedy and I played John Kennedy and so I asked if you would look up this fellow please because I hadn't seen him in years they found him he played I believe he played Wayne Morris yeah now we understand homage to Fulton Sheen something I only remember from gentleman's agreement that terms like sheeni were used as derogatory terms about the Irish yeah for sure right uh and and it wasn't it wasn't a way of uh taking that taking ownership of that back I have to ask you then so it's 1960 you are a Catholic and there is an Irish American Catholic who whose name we just mentioned because you would go on to play him 23 years later who gets elected president yeah what do that feel like tell me about that John F Kennedy was Reaction to John F. Kennedy's election the most disarming most welcome uh public figure in the life of of the nation of us individually uh for Catholics and non-catholics for people of faith and people of no faith I mean he was extraordinary and he just arrived and the first thing that that I remember uh in in in in listening to him was that speech pattern and it was like it was so disarming and it was so charming and nobody's talked like that you know in public life we were taught to get that Midwestern sound you know and and hit all the right notes particularly the bass you know and uh here this guy uh was just rewriting all the rules and it was such an honest portrayal it was he was just totally in and of the moment and the place and we adored him and I I I remember I wasn't old enough to vote then because you had to be 21 I was only 20 in 1960 so I would I couldn't vote for him but I sure cheered for him and when he won I thought oh my God something magnificent has just happened and it and it was real he he really did make a profound change in all of our lives and he was probably more conservative than I would have wished but the fact that he was there and that he was so young and so handsome I remember when we lived in Staten Island for a couple of years and uh one day I came down to uh South Ferry to get the the you know the ferry across to the island and they closed down everything the ferry wasn't running and a huge crowd of people and cops on Horseback all over the place said what's going on they said oh the president's coming here he's going to dedicate this monument that that big eagle that sits in the middle of the park down there for the sailors and all the people that had died in the at Sea I pushed through the crowd and I swear to you I got to the head of the crowd just in time to see the lousine come by and John Kennedy leaned forward in the car as if he was adjusting his his uh uh uh uh coat jacket or something but there he was and the first thing that struck me was how tan he was I said this is It's a winner I said how does he get a tan it was just amazing but yeah that's the only time I saw him uh in that one brief moment but uh he lived in our hearts in a very very special way and he still does in in large partk because of what he made possible he he just he just turned the whole thing upside down there was thing that he had um there were he had such a respect for the uh the president the Eisenhower who was the other party and Truman Truman was not fond of him because they had had a feud his father John Kennedy's father and Harry Truman had had had a feud earlier and Truman was not fond of him and he thought that John Kennedy was too young uh to run but what a lot of people don't realize is how often John Kennedy would call trumman on issues that uh he had dealt with when he was in the in the Oval Office and Eisenhower and they never really talked about it those those calls I know are you know there are at least notes available for then but did he that he had that sense of history and that he Cuban Missile Crisis and the Kennedy brothers he he always knew that there was there was something or there was always something more uh in a crisis than what you were you were facing there were always angles people incidents history there was always something and that came into play so strongly during the Cuban Missile Crisis with his dependence on his brother on Bobby because when that crisis ended remember what the last thing Kennedy John Kennedy said about the thing thank God for Bobby because Bobby had made that in run and uh you know said Let's ignore last message and say we accept you know this and that I'm talking about the Cuban Miss chist how it ended the excon committee so-called that committee that was uh set up out of the um uh with the military with people in the U uh civilian world in the Diplomatic world and in the U in the cabinet posts as well this committee was made up of all these people who would advise the president on what to do they came up with the quarantine rather than attacking uh and so and that proved to be very very important uh and then so they kept communicating with Kristof and Russian government and the Soviets were demanding this and demanding that and there was a very severe demand and it was like the door is shut uh do you take this or leave it and this one very scary message coming back from the Kremlin and uh and they didn't quite know this could mean War if the door is shut now and Bobby said Let's ignore that let's take the second last message where they said if you take the missiles out of uh turkey if you do this and you do they promis not to invade uh Cuba we'll we'll make a deal and remove the missiles and so they sent that message back pretending they hadn't gotten the you know the the dark one about how the war is going to the world's going to end if you don't accept these uh these conditions and uh and and Kristof jumped on it and it ended the crisis and he was like my God it was like where did that come from yeah it was just like a it was a miracle again art and life coincide you said you Playing Robert Kennedy in Missiles of October played President Kennedy you played did you play Robert k kened in missiles of October I played Robert Kennedy yes in missiles of October which was about that specific uh 13 days in October 1962 so much of your choice of work I have to say I think it must include Apocalypse Now you've chosen things including the way to things that speak to your values speak to your heart and when we're talking about social justice you've picked a lot of things that reflect your values and is that a conscious thing is that I would say yeah when I had a choice uh to um Infuse some of my um uh Talent into a work that spoke to social justice uh to civil rights or to women's rights or to gay rights or uh dealing with with with Illuminating uh an unpopular uh reality yes I I always chose that but I didn't always have a choice if I wanted to make a living in this business there very few things that I actually did that were uh from the heart and the pocket book that spoke to how I felt about an issue uh you mentioned the way yeah that was a family affair that was written for me by my son Amelia and frankly it is the most satisfying thing I've ever done in my professional life and to this day uh if I could get another film like the way I would gladly do it but you know we don't always get these choices very often we we're giving giv uh material that we that doesn't really speak to our hearts or anyone else's that it's just entertainment or fluff or nonsense and so we do it in order to not have to uh go back to the car was or the golf course the C you still you still got the other social security card so you could but but Martin let's be clear there is a part for which you will always be Associated and that is when you were our president uh and and and and there's something there an interesting phenomenon that I noticed is that during the pandemic when people were at home and had to watch nothing but television because they couldn't go out a whole new generation of people watched the westwing I'm sure you've heard this and if you haven't let me tell you it's true The West Wing because I was hearing it from 20-year-old that they discovered the show that had been on before they were born in some cases yeah so let me ask you you say were keeping the lights on and paying the bills but then one day Aon cirin comes to you and as I understand it it wasn't supposed to include you most of the time it was to be about the people in The West Wing but not the president so can you talk a little bit about that moment in time when this all happened yeah well The West Wing came at me like a West Wing wind uh I I wasn't prepared for it I I had uh a relationship with Aon sorin the brilliant writer from a film a few years earlier the American president so uh I was aware of his talent and his presence certainly and then uh in in the I guess it was the spring or summer of it was the spring of 1999 they came with a didn't offer to play the president in the West Wing but it there was only one scene in the uh pilot and they asked me would I be uh comfortable playing the president in just a few episodes maybe four tops five in in a season of 22 Episodes so that would be like one quarter of the time would you do that and I said of course I'd do that and they said the only thing that we would demand from you is that you couldn't play another president anywhere else while we're on the air I said what are the chances so I signed on and then the pilot was made and I had a feeling that once the network uh saw that set which was designed on the real Set uh from the uh then Clinton administration um they're going to want to know who plays who works in that office and I was right as soon as the pilot was shown to the executives at NBC they said uh can we get him back for more and so I said yeah of course I came back and signed on just like all the other folks in the in the show did and so yeah we were I I had a seven-year run in the Oval Office and it was one of the best times of my life it was a 7year run so it was almost two full terms as president yeah right uh uh I had when when the The West Wing began I was in my second year as president and so uh if if the now mind you we we never knew if it would get picked up from year to year in fact I didn't think it would because I thought how are we going to sell cars and insurance and and and you know prescription drugs on on network television at Prime Time with a political show with a very very liberal Catholic President and a very liberal Administration who believes in working across the aisle uh and and is and and works from a moral frame of reference and so I think I was probably more surprised that we kept getting picked up and we kept getting more liberal and we kept getting more moral in our decisions uh talking about the president and uh so that was the most gratifying part was that uh we went from the Clinton Administration into the first Bush second Bush Administration of Bush Jr and we became like a uh a parallel universe if you will because here was this rather Conservative Republican very Brash young president and here was the old you know liberal Democrat Bartlett on the other side so every Wednesday night we got to we got a we got the equivalent of a uh either a fireside chat or a address from the Oval Office from Mr Bartlett so yeah it was the most gratifying thing to to have done that for all that time with all those wonderful people the fact is that and you you laid it out right during that time that second year we had Bush VOR we saw the country as the century turned we saw the country turn and a lot of people felt like fairness had gone I asked this it's it's hard to know when you're in the center of anything but did you have that sense of the I call the echo chamber of Television of having an effect and then it being reflected back to you from how people were responding to you playing that part yes I think all of us on the west wing for those seven seasons had a sense that we were doing something that was much more than our you know a job in our career and much more than even a story about a president that we were we were contributing ideas and possibilities and we were we became and we were very aware of it at the time and it gradually even became more and more uh uh clear to us of what an inspiration we were particularly to young people and especially young women and uh you know uh the uh the the women in the show the regulars particularly Allison Janney was a great source of inspiration to a lot of women and we we were getting letters from uh kids in college and high school who and particularly the young women uh who were changing their uh uh choices for uh you know career and they were going into public life or law or so social justice they were becoming involved and they were being fulfilled and inspired by a lot of the uh the energy that we were uh sharing on The West Wing so that was the most gratifying part even today like you said during the pandemic you know I still get letters from people who had never seen it before they were born after uh uh we were on the air and so they wouldn't have seen it as small children and they became aware of it when they were locked down during the pandemic and it became uh a whole new world for them and and some of them in fact a great many of them saw it twice they ran to because you remember the dialogue is very much like I'm talking right now it was very fast it was hard to hear what do he say what'd he say and you couldn't rerun it in those days you know uh uh so um yeah they would see it again and realize and you know what's very interesting as well is we had many advisers from real administrations some of them going going all the way back to Eisenhower and there were stories that were ingrained in our show uh that came from real life and one just one example is uh during the Depression a young uh a black uh child in Brooklyn wrote a letter to uh President Roosevelt and said you know my father has lost his job could you please help my dad and here's his name and here's our address and please uh please uh see see see if you can help my dad get a job that was the gist of the letter well it got lost in what we used to call in those days the the dead letter box well it came came to light during the Carter Administration this is a true story one of his age found this letter floating around somewhere and gave it to uh Jimmy Carter and he asked to meet the uh the fellow who is now you know guy was already in his 60s and he said yeah and they brought him to the White House and he met Jimmy Carter and he said sorry we got your letter so long how's your dad he's always he's passed now and now but that was one of our episodes where Charlie you know Dule Hill playing Charlie gets a hold of this letter somebody gives him that was addressed to uh uh uh Roosevelt and we brought the guy in you know there's an episode that I've waited a long time to ask you about two Cathedrals one of the most uh talked about episodes of the entire series was the one called two cathedrals which took place uh uh in the national uh cathedral in um Washington DC where the president's secretary had been killed in a car accident and he he attended the funeral the president that is Bartlett was uh feeling really he'd been hit from every side and he felt vulnerable and there were so many uh chance things that turned against him uh personally politically uh in every conceivable way particularly the loss of one of the ships that had been sunk in a terrible storm and uh he's just really at Rock Bottom it's it's it's the most uh um I would say the most vulnerable he was in the whole series and it it it it was climaxed in that scene in two Cathedrals and he asked uh the Secret Service to clear the uh church he he was going to have it out with God it's the only way I can describe it but he was going to do it in Latin I asked Aaron once why did you choose Latin and he said because that seemed to be the language of God for a Catholic and as I grew up you know as an alar boy and so I I knew the church Latin for the mass and so I got got that okay so I went to uh my local uh Pastor who's who's uh deceased now but he was uh a very renowned mon Senor John Sheran at Our Lady of Malibu our Paris out by the beach and and I I I just had to make sure that I was saying the Latin right and he taught me all the correct pronunciations and so I learned the part and and then went to Washington and we had to film this scene and I also had a a dear friend who also deceased of Father Bud Kaiser whom I worked with a lot on his series Insight it was a very popular Anthology series that showed every Sunday morning it was on with the that'd be the the Protestant hour the Jewish hour and then insight and so you had your choice it was Mor moral morality plays you know and he told me one time that he would have these uh conversations with God he would lock down the church and he would go at it with God and he would as if he was talking to a therapist or someone that had done him wrong and this is this is true I can reveal this now because he told me in confidence but he's long since deceased and I don't think he would mind and he said yeah he would tell God exactly how he felt and how could you treat me like this on the other hand I you know it was like tevia you know hi how could you do this to me on the other hand you know and that was sort of what bud Kaiser would do and so it it was not unfamiliar to me but it was an outrageous scene because I'm there in the middle of the National Cathedral alone yelling at at God and decided to have a cigarette to to Really uh get his goat and um and and and I did it and uh and I st stamped on the cigarette which was the worst thing to do inside a church um and I remember after we finished the scene Aaron was very pleased and very moved by it because you never know if something's going to work or not until you actually do it and you see it you know and he said yeah he said I think it works and let's go with that okay so now we were waiting for the coverage that was you know I the the initial reaction was on the the what we call the the master the the the whole shot where you see one camera would see the whole church me walking along and another one a bit closer and now we were going to do one a bit closer and so I had to wait a while while they set up for that and uh the guys that that worked since they were the guys that kind of uh they were they were the uh the acolytes who had open the cathedral for us and they they they played the uh in the service of the funeral they they were invested you know and uh and they were sitting there with three or four of these guys and they were not happy with me and uh I I said guys what what's wrong you don't look happy said well you know we we this is not our choice that we were told that you know we we had to accommodate you people and so there you have it and I said but why are you so upset said well we've never seen such behavior in our church before and uh it it it seems outrageous and I we don't want to say Blasphemous but we're not comfortable with it and I I just I felt so badly for them and and I thought why it is their home and here I am this stranger coming in and doing all this stuff but it wasn't really me it was this character nevertheless I just sort of I looked up and I'll never forget it and in the stained glass window at the highest point where I was standing was job and I said to them um excuse me gentlemen is job up there and then they looked I said yeah that's job and I said what do you think about that didn't he have it out with God every now and then how could you do this to me on the other hand it's job and tevia and now it's Bartlett so uh it seemed to work and they were they were less offended in more understanding yeah and you know from the response that it did resonate uh with so Faith and personal beliefs many people because it was about loss it was about how is it questions Faith yeah and as I said you're I know you to be a man of deep Faith uh but I've always thought of you as Catholic with a small sea and in the Dorothy Day tradition of your faith can you explain what that is one of my heroes was Phil Baran Dan beran's Brother Dan was also uh one of my heroes but the brothers together had a very profound effect on all of us from the 60s and these were two Catholic priests that opposed the Vietnam War and uh burn draft cards and they went to prison Federal Penitentiary for a couple of years so they made the ultimate sacrifice and they were a great inspiration to all of us that you that if what you believe is not costly then you're left to question its value and so that that was really uh [Music] um what I tried to um live as much as I could and be to be true to myself you can't always do it because I didn't have that much courage but when it was uh possible for me to do something and not make a fuss about it because whenever I protested or spoke out against some injustice I never expected that it was going to influence anyone I never believed that I was going to change anyone's mind I only did it because I could not not do it and be myself or at least the image I had of myself so it was a deeply personal commit commitment and I've always believed that if something is not personal it's impersonal if it's impersonal who cares so if I was to care about something it had to cost me something and so uh that was at the center of of who I I have this phrase I use sometimes about about just generally living wherever you find yourself You' got to find a place a way to unite the will of the spirit with the work of the flesh you got to put them together and so that you're not unbalanced you're not too much in one and not enough in the other but if you can do that then you your spirit has a has a has an opportunity to breathe on its own it's not forced it's not it's not it's not religion per se it's a Transcendence of religion because it's spirituality I think sometimes I'm a practicing Catholic I'll get it right I hope someday but I love the faith I have a lot of problems with the church it's male dominated it's made a horrible bunch of mistakes over the centuries but the faith in it itself is very very nourishing and very important it's where I go to um to kind of to kind of claim the chamber in my heart that's the best way I know to describe it it's I know myself in this faith I I believe in the basic ten of Catholicism and they make absolute perfect sense to me that as I say if what you believe is not costly then you're left to question its value and that's what I face every day of my life but I it has led me to a enviable joyful place inside myself that that I don't I don't anticipate uh Ever Changing anyone's mind or Journey particularly my family they there's no Catholics in my family I mean my immediate from my among my sons they they admire what I do to a certain extent but they don't have any you know in inclination to go there with the possible exception of rone who will join me at Mass every now and then and amelo of course but um and I I I've stopped trying to convert them do you know what I'm saying I sto trying to convert anyone that doesn't believe that what I believe and it's because what I think of it is it's a gift it's a Grace if you will it's the best description of Grace is is what you believe in action because only when you step out into that no man's land and you're willing to take whatever is coming at you it's only then that you need the grace if you're staying at home and you're just peeping out the window that's a limited amount of Grace you've got to go out and expose what you believe what you think how you feel and demonstrate it and that's when the grace arrives so it's a sacred kind of um um activity and I think this way I think this is for people who have no religious belief or are not connected to any uh uh uh religious group people of all faiths of no faiths but just humanity and I found that you know we're all so concerned about hiding our Brokenness and I think the faith Grace is exposing it because it's human and that's the only way God gets in is through our Brokenness it's only when we are willing to to expose ourselves to the absolute beauty of our Brokenness that it can be blessed so it's the beautiful broken uh part of ourselves and that's where that's the most important part so I can't separate that from my family life my uh political if you will uh life my public life my uh uh artistic life in the movies or whatever I do artistically it's it's when I found the way to unite the will of the spirit to the work of the flesh then I went everywhere as the same guy and and experienced the sense of joy that I never had before before I I was Catholic well I re I Recon converted in 81 so the last half of my life has been by far the most difficult because I was so involved in so many issues but it's equally the happiest because I know myself in that sphere and I don't anticipate changing anyone's life but mine you said that you didn't think that it had an impact you didn't do it for an impact but whenever any man strikes out against oppression he sets forth a tiny Ripple of Hope and Crossing each other from a million different centers of Daring these ripples build aurr build a current that can sweep down the mightiest walls of Oppression and Injustice Bobby Kennedy Senator Kennedy at uh in in South Africa in 1966 at um the University of uh uh Cape Town I believe he was the Cape Town University yeah 1966 57 years ago yesterday you said that my oh my so to my point and to yours that when you do this when you strike out against depression these things you've done since your since 1981 you've stood up for the things that you believed in they've been what you needed to do for yourself is it fair to say that you are aware that the things that you've done the actions you've taken have created these ripples of Hope tell me what you've seen from the actions you've taken from my own involvement in all of the issues whether it was Involvement in various protests and movements nuclearism war particularly the Gulf War which I was very involved in protesting against the first Gulf War as well as the second one in Iraq um and much earlier of course the Vietnam War but uh what whether I was protesting homelessness or Injustice or racism or whatever it was whatever issue I was involved in uh I never anticipated as I said earlier changing anybody the only one that changed was me and I think that that's as it should be I I I the the idea of being associated with a movement or a cause uh and and and be counted on to to promate that publicly and to engage in that to in influence others is not my concern I think that the the best way to describe it for me is when I went to a demonstration I never looked over my shoulder I didn't know if anybody was following me in Frank I didn't care I was there for me to get me there was the greatest work because I'm such a coward I'm such a I would look and I mean that in the in in the oldfashioned sense I'm just just timid and frightened uh and I would look for the cameras or the women and the children I'm serious because that was the safest place to be in a demonstration they were the least likely to be V victimized and yet you've been arrested a multitude of times so apparently you haven't been very good at finding Safe Haven Martin I have to ask you because you mentioned women before and one of the people we've talked to I know you know well is Dolores swta talk to me for a moment because I know you have marched with her walked with her you walk with Cesar can you talk about Dolores and the Farm Workers at large and that movement because I know you've been a part of that yes I've been involved with the Farm Workers uh for some time but not Involvement with farm workers back in when they formed when they started in the 60s I was still in New York I didn't get involved until the 80s uh so I came very late but I came during a critical period I came during the period Cesar was fasting uh in what was uh called the fast for life at deleno the farmers Farm Workers headquarters and that was the first time I met him in fact uh he got me to quit smoking I was a very heavy smoker and he got me to stop I was so moved moved by him he his his presence was uh was it was defining because he he had been in such conflict and for so long that it became like a uh a mantle it was expected of him if he wasn't uh organizing or or protesting or being arrested then he wasn't Caesar you know he was like but he had a life and a family and he had a great sense of humor and he was very disarming and very practical I adored him uh and Dolores of course was H his partner in the the founding of the union and people don't realize how difficult it was for her because she was a Latina you know and if this is a you know the Latino culture is very heavily favored to with the male dominance in these matters you know particularly a union or uh something as important as that so dolores's place in United Farm Workers is paramont it's equal to Cesar he couldn't have done it without her and she couldn't have done it without him so they were they were a magic couple at the time in the place and there would have been no Union if it if they hadn't lifted each other up to that status you know the miracle is she continues at 93 to this day yeah mhm with that energy Admiration for Dolores Huerta energ and that purpose and that determination what is it you see in her now low these many years later that keeps her going darar Vera is a is one of those phenomenal committed people who lives in in a complete total awareness of the time and place that she lives she sees all that's going on everywhere and nothing gets by her and she is involved and I mean in in so many uh important issues I'm on the board of the delor worther foundation I just talked to her recently uh and so she's very intimidating because it's like uh she would never say it mind you she's very practical she's a mother and her wife and she's raised all these children for all these years and they're all Extraordinary but she never makes you feel like um you know what have you done for justice lately no there's none of that it's like hey you know I thought about this or you know this and that did anyone called you about this or that or you and it it's like an invitation it's it's not a it's not a ever a a criticism if you're not on the line or you're not involved it's an invitation that's what she is and it's like wow you know you can step out into that place again uh you know it's again if what you believe is not costly you're left to question its value and so whenever I'm associated with anything to do with Dolores I know it's going to cost me and it's valuable all of these causes you put yourself on the line and there have been repercussions you've been arrested and you've been jailed and you've had to do community service can you talk about that I was protesting the death of the the Jesuits in El Salvador uh in all of the uh military American Military involvement in Central and South America and I'd gone there with Witnesses for peace and other uh non-violent peace organizations and um saw firsthand what was going on particularly in Nicaragua and El Salvador and uh so I came back and began to voice uh concern and urge people to become aware of what was going on down there and particularly during the Reagan years it was very very bad the confess and we talked to Mike frell about that who went down there as well and saw that firsthand yeah it changed Mike's life really yeah and I was involved in a number of organizations in fact Mike frell and I were together in an organization called the Wednesday morning Coalition and we would meet downtown at the laita and March to the courthouse and shut it down and so I had like there were Accu I accumulated uh 13 arrest and I I had to appear in court but these things take a long time so they put 13 of them together and I appeared before a very uh uh uh distinguished uh female judge a federal judge who was hearing these cases and she said Ramon because I'm arrested under Ramon uh it doesn't appear to make any difference if I put you in jail for all these arrests and and all your behavior on the line I said not likely said you're probably going to do it again aren't you I said I hope so she said very well would you do community service I will I said she sent me to St Joseph Center and I became the dishwasher at the bread and Roses Cafe just down the street it's a homeless kitchen uh and and so I spent 10 years there as a volunteer and uh yeah it it was the longest job I had until I got the westwing no it was longer than the West Wing actually but uh yeah I only left it because because of the westling yeah so you began as a dishwasher continued as a dishwasher it's it's been and did you unionize everyone there why oh no no they didn't need unionization no that would have been a step down for the volunteers they were the Jesuit volunteers and then all the people here and all the nuns you know that that founded St Joseph Center Mr Rose was the founder of the the red and Roses Cafe you know Rose henigan was her name and the work of the yeah the work of the St Joseph Center is something because you were there people again celebrity has a way of putting a little light on things the way they did on that stage when you were there and Dr King was there up a light comes on you and people became aware of the St Joseph Center and bread and Roses because you were there is that a fair statement uh I I wouldn't say I drew a whole lot of attention I mean they were in the neighborhood they were doing this work for years before I arrived I think they've been at it almost 25 26 maybe 27 years already now uh so no they were they were well in in involved in the community and there were a great many volunteers they had all all these different Services the red and Roses Cafe the feeding of the Homeless was just one they had Meals on Wheels they had education they had A Drop in Center on the corner down here just a few blocks from here where the people the street folks could wash their clothes make phone calls and and rest for a while you know so yeah they were very involved in in the whole uh uh you know package of social justice and service to the poor and it inspired you even as you were cleaning those plates yes I was not a very good dishwasher in fact I I spilled so much water on the floor they put up a sign one day I came in and it said Lake Sheen there's something I have to ask you that's that's really personal in a larger sense you've Joy in art and music brought so much joy through your art to the world and so much thought and passion what brings you Joy in art and I'll give you one particular area what music gives you Joy what music do you listen to oh gosh I love music great fan of the music of my uh era which was started as Folk Music you know when I really became aware rock and roll of course when I was a teenager you know Elvis was you know enormous influence and Little Richard and all of the rock and roll stars of the 50s I knew him and loved them all uh but later on in life I became uh aware well Bob Dylan in the 60s had a profound effect and still does in large measure I mean he was a turning point like James Dean in the cinema Bob Dylan was that in the music world for all of us you know and uh deservedly so I adored him and uh uh but lately uh the last 20 years or so of my life I would say classical music I've I've fallen in love with classical music and I'm even learning something about it you know so I just love to listen to it but now I listen to this uh this uh public radio station uh here in Los Angeles kusc and uh I'm fascinated with the the the the DJs I guess the only way I call them the announcers they know so much many of them are musicians themselves that I learned later but they they love what they're doing and uh the the music is a reflection of that but they get behind the stories and and I had no idea I love Mozart and bethoven above all but I had no idea who they were why they wrote what they did and why what they wrote was so important and how they all influenced and nourished each other so classical music is uh is is one of my great Joys to listen to that to read a book and listen to classical music today is heaven well that it brings us to really the end and the purpose of why we sat Power of storytelling down it's the power of narrative and of Storytelling and how important storytelling is whether it's telling about why music mattered to these people you listen to or why something has mattered to a writer an actor what is the importance to you and what have you seen you you are as it turns out an amazing Storyteller without a script what is the power of Storytelling to you well I storytelling is is you know part of what I do for a living it's usually someone else's story that I embody but it if it's personal then it it takes on another meaning a different energy and a reality uh so I think what I've always tried to do as an actor is to find reality even in a lousy script you know which sometimes is the worst thing to do because you give it credibility it doesn't deserve it you know but but you can't help it you cannot not do your best even in in in a terrible film or play or whatever it is you're doing but uh one of the great influences I've had in my adult life as a Storyteller as I think the best Storyteller uh on the public stage was uh uh the Master of Ceremonies for Prairie Home Companion Garrison Keeler and uh I adored him and I I listened to him for years particularly the lake W begon stuff but he was a natural Storyteller and a writer as well and a very disarming man and I I ended up getting to know him a little bit and I did the show I did about a half a dozen of the shows uh when he was still on the air and it was one of the best experiences and the most satisfying of my life because it was back to my first love which was radio I grew up listening to radio in our house we had this enormous console and when I was a boy I used to look behind it when everyone had gone to bed and see where the people were maybe they were sleeping but that magic of because the radio uh forced your imagination to awaken to these stories and I loved them and uh that was the that was really the first even before films it was radio that uh I was uh drawn to with storytelling and that I would immerse myself because I would cry when you know somebody got hurt or was killed or some injustice was imposed and I would get furious when someone got away with something that they didn't deserve some villain so I was very involved in and so and and I and I and and I've come back full circle to the radio I love the radio even today you know I don't like talk radio per se because that is divisive I think I'd rather listen to a sports announcer because there's no arguing about who won and who lost uh so I I I really love uh storytelling and uh but I'm I'm sorry that Garrison ke Keeler is no longer on the air because he he he was America's best Storyteller because he was also a writer and he he understood the medium in ways that nobody got before or since I don't think so I miss him