Doris Kearns Goodwin, a Pulitzer Prize-Winning Presidential Historian, on Biden’s Historic Decision

Introduction I am thrilled to be talking to uh an old friend a young friend a esteemed friend someone who is in a league all of her own Doris Kern Goodwin uh is knows more about the history of our country than anybody I know anybody living uh anybody who has ever walked the Earth she is the author of the number one New York Times best-selling book an unfinished Love Story a personal history of the 1960s she's also Pulitzer prize-winning presidential historian and we have known each other forever and ever and so it's a thrill to be talking with her uh I can't think of anybody I'd like to talk to more than you Doris right now help us How hard is it to relinquish the presidency make sense of this extraordinary moment in our history I'm so glad to be talking to you Maria I remember you from you were a little girl so this is really great you know I think the most important thing that's happened is that it's so hard for a president to relinquish the presidency really really hard to not have that second term you know all the presidents that I've lived with over time you know I feel like I know them they all wanted a second term it would endorse their first term President Lincoln talked about that he said he cared more about the second term than the first term and and yet he he wanted to have his own presidency finished and do the second term and that's exactly what Biden said so I think for these last three weeks just the tension that that Biden has been living through must have been extraordinary I mean he was getting pressure to stand down from the race he kept believing that he had come back from all these adversities before and maybe he could come back from that disastrous debate performance and then he was hearing his close friends and colleagues in Congress and Senate telling him you can't that you know age is something that it's not you can come back with with Will and hard work and the perception that you're not going to be able to do the job in another four years if you're still there and so he made that decision to stand down and and it it did take everybody even though we knew it might have been coming it's a big historic moment and you just have to feel how hard it is for a president to do that I know from Lyndon Johnson it was one of the hardest decisions he ever made and you feel a certain empathy for him making it but I think he'll get what Lyndon Johnson did too accolades for having done so putting his country before himself and maybe just a relief from that extraordinary pressure that he was under yeah you were saying that you you've actually really lived with presidents I.E Lyndon Johnson and lived with the history of presidents you talk about Lincoln what is it about this job that's so hard to let go of and you've also talked a lot about that Biden is a The state of Lyndon Johnsons mind person who meets adversity who expects that of himself who wants to show people look I can come back I've come back from all of these other things yeah I know when I think about the state of lynon Johnson's mind when he withdrew from the race um it should have been easy to know the extraordinary pressure he was under as you're saying all presidents do and in his case the war had made his opinion polls plummet down to the 20s and the 30s when he went out on the streets during the day people were signing against him how many kids did you kill to get today he was being battered in New Hampshire he was going to lose in Wisconsin and still he was holding on even though he could not sleep at night he'd be haunted by this image that he was swimming in a river and trying to get to Shore and then he couldn't reach that Shore so he would turn around and swim the other way and then he couldn't reach that Shore he was just caught in the middle and so he finally decided he had to to make a decision about the war itself because the war needed to be wound down he was finally told we didn't know this when we were waiting for this his speech we heard he was going to give this speech my husband was up in m in New Hampshire actually with McCarthy and Teddy white and all we knew was that he going to make a speech on the war we had no idea that it was going to be coupled with the withdrawal but what he was told by the elders was that unless you wind the war down you're going to have to send 200,000 more troops and only then it will be a stalemate so he was making that huge decision to try and wind it down but he knew nobody would believe him if he were a candidate so that was really an issue with him but nobody knew that that would be tacked on to this speech so Teddy white and Dick are listening my husband are listening to this speech and Teddy white the journalist said something interesting he saw something different in his face he had seen him only five days before and he said he looked terrible five days before his voice was soft you could hardly hear him his eyes were sunken and now he saw him on the screen he said he looks relieved he looks Serene almost he looks composed something's up this this is even before he withdrew from the race and he wasn't even sure he was going to deliver that last paragraph the people closest to him didn't know and then finally when it came out people just were yelling in their seats I mean it was just such a shock much more than the Biden thing was it stunned the country but you I read that you were also saying that when Johnson going into that speech he had this very high disapproval rating and almost overnight it changed and I was watching all of the reaction to the president uh yes yesterday right on Sunday when he delivered his letter that caught seemed to catch so many people off guard all of a sudden people were heartbroken they were oh my gosh this is one of the most consequential presidents of our lifetime I'm so sad to see him go but I also understand what do you think it did to the American public about watching this man that Millions had voted for to be reelected that people um who had a you know High dis approval rating but also that people knew and I The impact on the American public think expected on Friday he had said I'm going to stay in this race and I'm going to see you out on the trail and all the feelings I think before the speech were mixed together with wanting him to stay in some of the you know fervent supporters but others being upset and even angry and feeling he was being stubborn and preventing a real chance for the Democrats to to even begin to win win the race so once he makes that decision and he then people begin to change their feelings back again and realized that he had done something for the good of the country that might be hurtful to himself it's almost like a little retirement for many people is like a little death right but in this case as as was said of LBJ it seemed political suicide to retire because he'd been in public life his whole life as had president President Biden so I think we're going to be seeing you're already seeing among the people talking on television editorials now just the New York Times that had editorial is just weeks ago it was time for him to get out of the race Now talks about it as a principal decision and the stock market went way up when Lyndon Johnson made his decision to withdraw because it made the possibility of Peace we'll see what the stock market does now but it's it's a feeling of empathy that I think a lot of people will feel for the decision that he made what what happened with Johnson because that's the most recent example we have of someone giving it up not of losing because we have President Bush and Carter who weren't reelected to another term but what was their reaction What can we expect to staying in the office even though in some ways they were lame duck so what what can we expect with Biden staying in well you know the interesting thing about LBJ was the reason he said he was withdrawing from the race was that he wanted to concentrate on bringing peace to Vietnam and for a moment it seemed like that might be actually happening he withdraws on March 31st and then on April 3 North Vietnam sends a message that they'll come to the peace table he said it was probably the happiest day of his president presidency he fills a plane with all the White House people and the state department people that are going to go to Hawaii on April 4th where he's going to join later that night after a congressional dinner and then at 5:30 he gets the news that Martin Luther King had been shot so everything changed after that riots happened in the streets two months later Bobby Kennedy was killed the peace talk stalled and then the Democratic party comes together in Chicago again as it was is it going to be this year as well and there's still chaos because the war is going on the anti-war activists are there they fight with the police and then Teddy white the same journalist I mentioned earlier predicted that the Democrats had lost the election that night but fate had intervened who knows what would have happened if King hadn't been killed if Bobby hadn't been killed if Bobby had won the race the Democrats had won then his decision would have been a Continuum to keep going the liberal philosophy that he cared about so we'll see what happens with Biden you know it will make a big difference if whoever the nominee is wins the race that he will have helped that happen if that person loses then people might question could he have done it earlier should he have done it earlier um so we've got Fate that we we don't know where we're going on this we can clearly know that we didn't know where we were a month ago to imagine that this could be happening but what What does Biden do now does he do now does he just say I'm going to keep my eye on some of my pet projects does he go all in in this race to help elect the Democratic nominee or how does he continue to wrap up his own presidency and will people help him do that it's a really good question Maria because in part in his letter he said he wanted to focus you know on the presidential duties and that would mean helping to bring peace if he could to to the Middle Eastern situation supporting Ukraine in the war of aggression against them by Russia and and knowing that those are the kind of things that would help in the long run anyway not only for himself and the country but for the election but it's hard to imagine that he'll stay away from the campaign Trail as well I mean he's going to be endorsing as he said his vice president and I imagine he'll get it's not like 68 where there was a primary campaign still going on so President Johnson couldn't endorse anybody still um until it was resolved in the nomination but I might suspect that he'll be focusing on presidential duties and the presidency will be using whatever resources it has she has control of those in some ways the money that was put put into the campaign the staff that would have been there for the campaign she will already have if she is the nominee she will have access to those but will will people Does Biden really have the power take a quote lame duck president ser iously does he really have the power to get things done in this limited time I think on foreign policy he may still have the power I mean it certainly gets diminished when you're not going to be there much longer but given that it he's going to be fight that's why maybe the answer to your earlier question is he almost has to do both because his power will depend in part on how the Democrats are doing in the election if they're doing better and they look like they might be winning then his power ex ex you know exceeds itself if not then it probably will will be lessened if it looks like it's going to be a blowout so maybe he'll be doing both at the same time hoping hoping that it helps the country this is conjecture but what do What changed for Biden you think changed for him as I said you know Friday after the Republican convention he was like I can't wait to get back out there and make my case I can't wait to get back out there and you know 30 some hours later he's like I'm going to stand down what do you think made that happen because you also talk about John up until the last second uh you know there was vacillating what do you think pushed him over you know I would guess that the conversations that he was having with his fellow congressmen and Senators who were talking to them not only the ones who went public in saying he should stand down but many more in private who were saying that and they were telling him not just that they thought he should stand down but they were hearing reports from his constit from their constituents you know 90% of whom said he should leave the race and having been a of Congress for such a long period of time these were his colleagues that had to finally get absorbed by him even more important maybe than the polls to hear those reports from his from his fellow colleagues and finally realizing that as much as you can change you know the way the debate was viewed as much as you can come back from so many other things that you have in your life it's hard to come back from the perception that you're too old for this and that you may not make it through the next four years with the kind of strength you would need to have don't you think this must so heartbreaking for him on a personal level as you said this is a man who's really given his entire life uh who prides himself also on the relationships uh that come from politics right you know of being that kind of standup guy um to see people turning on him in these last uh couple of weeks um publicly privately what do you think that did to him it must have been really really hard and I and you can see that there was a range of emotions that had provoked even more stubborn I'm going to stay in this race feeling he was being betrayed you know saying I'm going to show you in a certain sense and and making the people themselves feel guilty you know the donors are Elites you know these are not the people that are speaking the people still care about me I can imagine that whole range of emotions that he went through and that's why I'm imagining that maybe there's a relief now that having it's so hard when you have a decision you're anticipating making and it seems so hard to make and then finally when you make it there's a release from that tension and at least he knows now that those very same people the editorialists the donors the colleagues the Senators the congressmen are praising him for what he did and also praising him he's luckier in a way than some of the other presidents who've had only one term you know people are saying pretty generally that he's had a very good presidency a a consequential presidency in a recent poll he was R ranked number 14 that's in the top third for what he's already accomplished sometimes it takes much longer for that Lyndon Johnson hoped that he would be in that group and he is in that group now but it's taken years for the domestic enormous accomplishments to to come into focus with the war in Vietnam having seared that Legacy in twoo so Biden's got that going for him he can feel like he's already got a legancy and he can just hope that that this is the right decision who knows whether you second guess it as time goes by Johnson began to second guess it in the summer after 68 when Humphrey wasn't catching on and some of the Senators came to him and said you should have stayed in then for a few minutes he thought oh my God maybe I should have and he was very um jealous of of Harry Truman's temperament because Harry Truman once he made a decision never went back he never walked the carpet at at night and Johnson used to say I wish I could be more like Truman so we'll see what happens with with Biden whether he second guess this or whether this gives him a piece to go forward from the tension which much as you say it must have been terrible these last three weeks some of the worst weeks aside from the personal traumas that he experienced in his life Doris how will How will history treat Biden history treat him how will you treat him because you're the one that people look to like to put it in context how will you treat him well I think history or me writing about him some years later it takes it takes a while I mean even right now as I'm saying the domestic accomplishments that he was able to achieve in a very closely divided Congress and he was able to go across party lines and make compromises that made the infrastructure possible you know you know the prescription drugs the chip act all the the acts that have helped families and Veterans over this period of time and I think putting NATO expanding NATO and support for Ukraine will be viewed well in history um again it will depend in part on what happens in this election because whether he waited too long to to let go and and it could have been a wider race among the Democrats if the person wins that he is supporting if if Harris were to win then that would give him a leg up I think he'll be remembered for having beaten Trump in 2020 and for you know for having if people believe that so save democracy um so there's a lot that he already has going but it takes a while for presidents it takes Memoirs being written it takes time it makes light letters Diaries coming out to see what kind of a leader was he um we know about his empathy we know about his humility some of the qualities we know about leaders we've already seen in him but I I wish I could come back 50 years from now and I I'll tell you much more about how he's regarded than I can do today but but a Age and letting go part of his story now will be age and letting go both of those two issues will be a big part of Joe Biden's Legacy he started so young and he's ending at an with age being very much a part of his story and you're so right I mean he was one of the youngest senators in history when he started so he's got over 50 years you know in public service and always was that young fiery you know young Senator and then stays and stays and stays runs for the presidency several times and loses finally gets the presidency that he'd hop for so long and then comes up against this barrier of age it's a hard thing I mean um I mean I'd like to believe that it depends on how you age I I feel like I'm still going to keep going from I'm the same age as he is so it's hard for me when they say age prevent you and it's time to retire where am I going to retire to I just want to keep doing what I'm doing I love it so much but um but I think in public life it's it's it's hard it's hard when people feel like you haven't got the the Vigor or the energy or just the stamina that you're going to need for another four years they weren't even judging against him as I said for the debate they felt that even before the debate just looking at the age he was and what he would be he'd be way farther older than any president we've ever had well thank god at 81 you're still writing number one New York Times best-selling books by the way uh so I think it is a a conversation i' I've been to say about how we age and how also we treat people who are aging and in our kind of larger uh Society because so many people who are your age who are my age right there there's so many qualities that people bring to the table so much experience that people do bring to the table and we will see I think like you were just saying a very different President Biden this week next week and I think one that might feel the weight of the world lifted and maybe he'll find some new Vigor and then he also has the opportunity of a post president see that you know so many people have done such incredible things with right what do you think he'll do with that no I think you know he's been saying all along that with age just as you said brings wisdom and perspective and I think that an experience and now he can you know relieved of having to prove every day that he's able to campaign and be out there with the Vigor that you need campaign it's a different thing to campaign and then it is to run the presidency you're not making debates every day in the presidency you're making decisions you're surrounded by a group of people and he rightly I think said I've done a good job at that and I think most people would regard that many of the things that he's done in domestically and internationally have have been shown that kind of age and experience and perspective so now he can be all of that without having to prove that I can campaign like the next person and I can run around like the next person he doesn't have to do that anymore and I think that will relieve a lot of tension and maybe free him to be the Joe Biden that he was earlier love that Doris K Goodwin thank you so much for uh joining us today once again uh she is the author of the book it's out right now an unfinished love story and I had the um gift of watching that Love Story in real real life and it was a real love story and uh nothing quite like it so buy the book and uh bask in it learn from it it's so beautiful made me smile as I said when I got it on my desk so thank you Doris for you Mar what a pleasure to be with you again this is terrific I love it thank you so much take care