without objection the chair is authorized to declare recesses of the committee at any time welcome to today's hearing entitled an overview of the budget proposal for the National Aeronautics and Space Administration for fiscal year 2025 I recognize myself uh for 5 minutes for an opening statement today we hear testimony from administrator Nelson about the president's budget proposal for NASA for fiscal year 2025 this committee plays an important role in NASA's Mission by providing policy d ction and authorizing activities for the agency while we make progress with language included in the 2022 chips and science act it's been more than seven years since the last comprehensive NASA reauthorization bill was signed into law I'm certain that everyone in this room including the administrator can agree that s years is far too long as many of our experts have highlighted in committee hearings this year A lot has changed for NASA since 2017 we must approach an authorization bill with these changes in mind and address a few major topics the first topic is Artemis I speak for members on both sides of the aisle when I express the strongest support for America's return to the lunar surface but Support also means asking tough questions about the planned architecture and execution of the program the second topic is NASA's role in low earth orbit when the International Space Station is retired we heard several perspectives on this topic in February and I look forward to continuing this dialogue as we move forward a third topic is NASA's management of science missions within the agency's portfolio we support NASA daring to do big things particularly in science but how can Congress ensure these projects particularly Flagship May missions remain on schedule and within budget as we deliberate on these topics while we consider this important reauthorization legislation we must also keep in mind recent budgetary issues NASA doesn't lack plans for future exploration efforts whether it's returning astronauts to the Moon exploring our solar system or developing new Aviation Technology however these Ambitions come at a cost in May of 2023 President Biden signed the fiscal responsibility act capping Federal discretionary spending for FY 24 and fy2 one of our challenges will be to draft an authorization bill that complies with that law while providing sufficient support for NASA to execute these all inspiring missions failing to do so will force NASA to take more work take on more work than they have the funding to accomplish which will not only set NASA up for failure by asking them to do too much with too little by providing proper oversight and clear Direction and authorizing language this committee can create the framework for adequate funding for the agency's activities a common theme among the hearings this committee held this Congress is the importance of ensuring us competitiveness in research and Technology devel velopment globally and today is no different while the US Remains the global leader in space exploration we Face increasing challenges internationally just last week China reiterated its commitment to to Landing two astronauts on the lunar Surface by 2030 later this week China intends to launch a mission that will retrieve samples from The Far Side of the Moon if they are successful China will be the first country to do so we cannot allow China to become the front runner in space exploration there are too many consequences for our competitiveness our national security and our continued ability to explore space with clear direction from Congress NASA will ensure that the US remains a global leader in space and continues to inspire millions of people around the world I want to welcome administrator Nelson back to the committee where he served for many years I look forward to working with you as we move forward with our NASA authorization bill and I now recognize the ranking member the gentle woman from California for an opening statement well thank you Mr chairman and I join chairman Lucas in welcoming administrator Nelson back to the committee to discuss the president's budget proposal for NASA uh we appreciate your leadership at Nasa and that you are here again today uh amidst what can be times of geopolitical Economic and environmental Strife NASA continues to be a bright spot a North star that Sparks a sense of wonder and curiosity about our planet our solar system and the universe NASA's mission to advance space and earth science human exploration Aeronautics Space technology and stem education continues to bring us together and that's something we need here in Congress there's broad bipartisan support for NASA's Mission beyond the United States NASA continues to lead us in activities that serve the peaceful exploration and utilization of outer space the value of these intangible benefits cannot be underestimated nor can we forget the Direct Value that NASA R&D has had on societal challenges such as climate change space weather and even on tracking and characterizing potentially hazardous neear asteroids today's discussion provides an important opportunity to examine NASA's progress towards meeting our policy goals for the United States Civil Space Program to identify opportunities for improvement and to understand what NASA needs in budgetary Workforce and infrastructure resources to accomplish its inspiring Mission the president's fiscal year request for NASA is 2.38 four billion about a 3% increase from the enacted fiscal year 2023 appropriation I believe this request allows us to uh keep the Artemis 2 demonstration on track advancing moon de Mars activities and investing in sustainable Aviation among other activities however last year's debt sealing agreement does impose caps on discretionary spending and that presents challenges for all our federal research and development agencies NASA is no exception under the 2025 request for NASA high priority science recommended in recent National Academy decadal surveys canot be initiated the timeline for Mars sample return is to be determined previously selected science missions are being pushed to the ride or even cancelled while other productive science observatories such as the Shandra x-ray Observatory are proposed to be phased out for human exploration and space flight NASA's plans call for Trans transitioning from use of the uh International Space Station to commercial low earth platforms at the end of the decade at the same time NASA also plans begin an actual an annual Cadence of Artemis missions to the Moon in short a bow W wave is building there's no sugar coating the current budget proposal I recognize that tough decisions need to be made it's essential that this committee understand what drove some decisions uh in The Proposal over others as we evaluate tradeoffs and it's also imperative that NASA has clear plans for action on the other side of the present budget Horizon Lots is at stake I'm especially concerned as the chairman has mentioned about reductions uh in Workforce including including those in my home state in California resulting from prolonged Mission timelines losing skill Talent is a further setback that cannot be erased we need to look holistically at the implications of the 2025 proposal on the health of NASA now and in the future how will we position NASA to meet the future or will we stay on the tail as other nations that don't share our values Advance as the chairman has expressed as a ranking member I will continue to ensure we a position NASA for success and that the United States continues to lead in the exploration of outer space I want to thank you uh administrator for your extraordinary leadership of NASA and we welcome you back and thank you for your service I you back Mr thank you ranking member uh let me introduce our witness for today's hearing Mr Bill Nelson who serves as the 14th administrator of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration administrator Nelson's career includes over four de decades in public service he represented Florida in both Chambers during his 30 years in Congress and I would most importantly note including six years of chairing the house science committee space science and application subcommittee that's a real resume out of Mr director thank you for joining us today I now recognize administrator Nelson for five minutes to present his testimony Mr chairman with your permission uh to submit my written statement in the record and if I may just give you a couple of thoughts and then let's get to your questions without opposition absolutely um NASA is a storyed organization and this agency does amazing things a lot of the things that we do is right on the edge and next Monday night about 10:30 we're going to launch another uh vehicle it's human rated this is the first time that America has ever had three human rated uh spacecraft uh the one that will go to the Moon which is Orion on top of the big rocket the SLS uh the dragon Which flies on the Falcon 9 and is part of the commercial uh crew and cargo services to and from the International Space Station and now the third one the Boeing Starliner this is the first test flight uh we have two uh test pilots a Butch Wilmore and sunny Williams that are flying this test flight and if successful uh then we will have three uh the first time this has ever happened uh it's all a part of us continuing to in the human space program uh explore the heavens uh we're learning so much on the International Space Station uh it's an international Station 15 Nations participate uh and uh there is science that is just coming of age some of the pharmaceutical research is just going to knock our socks off uh we are also going back to the Moon after a half century uh we're going back not just to go to the Moon we're going back for the reason of learning enough so we can send humans to Mars in the decade of the 2040s uh NASA's Science Program you read about it all the time I mean the James web Space Telescope look what it is discovering out in the universe and I could go on and on the aviation program we're going to fly that needle-nose jet this year proving a different design that we can fly passengers supersonic across populated areas and not have the big bang bang of the Sonic Boom but it would be be more of a ruffled Mo a a ruffled a muffled Roar and so it goes on and on and I will stop right there well before the five minutes Mr chairman and be delighted to try to answer your questions thank you director Nelson for your testimony and the chair recognizes himself for five minutes uh administrator Nelson it was recently reported that NASA is considering changing the mission profile for AR 3 the mission scheduled for September of 2026 which is currently intended to land humans on the lunar surface the potential change in profile would result in a mission where astronauts do not land on the lunar surface but rather remain in low earth orbit is NASA actively considering an alternative Mission profile for emis 3 what's going on Mr administrator Mr chairman uh this is part of our commercial program and SpaceX is signed up uh to uh land in September of 26 uh next year September of 25 uh we are going to launch a crew of four three Americans and a Canadian and they will test out the spacecraft and it will Circle the moon and come home uh a year after that SpaceX is signed up to provide a Lander where we would go into a new kind of orbit uh a polar orbit a irregular uh or elliptical orbit and uh the crew will transfer into the Lander now that is what is provided in the contract the article that you're referring to uh is speculation well what happens if they're not ready well naturally people think about these things but the plan is to land and it would be uh two astronauts of the crew of four that would get into the Lander and go down and land and I I'm might say think about the Apollo program and the Artemis program emus 3 the first Lander that SpaceX is contracted for is the equivalent of Apollo 9 Apollo 10 and Apollo 11 so it's a it's a very accelerated program very much so Mr administrator the 2023 decadal strategy for planetary science suggested a total cost of 5.3 billion for the Mars sample return significant increases to that estimated cost have triggered several project reviews including NASA's ongoing efforts to reassess the program as NASA reconsiders the approach for the Mars sample return is NASA still targeting a total pro project cost of $3.5 billion 3.5 is unrealistic but I pulled a cord on it Mr chairman about two weeks ago because the independent review boards had said the cost was going up to 11 billion and it was very possible that we were not even going to get the sample back until 2040 and that's just simply unacceptable and so what I did was I said I want to go out to all NASA centers which includes the jet propulsion laboratory I want to go out to Industry which we now have done with a request for information to come up with new ideas by the way uh I checked in yesterday with the uh head of the jet propulsion laboratory on how their ideas are and they are quite excited about coming up with new ideas that can bring that cost down and also get that sample back earlier well certainly we wait with enthusiasm to hear those one last question Mr administrator in October the president submitted a domestic supplemental request to Congress requesting funding for a US deorbit vehicle to safely decommission the ISS as well as funding to help rebuild the NASA facilities in Guam and at the Armstrong flight Research Center Congress has not passed the supplemental appropriation package yet to date is the funding for the Guam hurricane package included in NASA's fy2 budget request uh no sir it is just like the Department of Defense uh that request for the Guam dishes uh is uh request in an emergency supplemental because that was as a result of a typhoon uh our request is 400 million of which we has been cutting and pasting and chewing gum and bailing wire uh as an interim solution and our uh request pales by comparison to DOD DOD is something something like two billion request ours 400 million but also in that request is the request for the funding for the deorbit vehicle why is it an emergency and it shouldn't be in the regular uh request for Appropriations because we don't know what Vladimir Putin's going to do uh we built the International Space Station with the Russians we operated with the Russians we have had no hiccup whatsoever with the Russian cosmonauts nor Moscow uh mission control and Houston mission control of which we have both Russians and Americans in both uh we do an integrated crew on the soyu there's an American astronaut on the Dragon there is a Russian cosmina and uh but we don't know what the president of Russia is going to do and we could be in emergency situation that we have to get this structure that is as big as a football stadium down and down safely in 2031 and that's why I am making the request and I'm pleading to you all and the Appropriations Committee to put that in the emergency supplemental bill that will be coming up later how much money are we talking about Mr administrator for the deorbit vehicle for fiscal year uh 2410 million for the total cost over six years it's going to be a billion and a half okay my time's expired and now turn to the ranking member uh for her questions for five minutes well uh thank you very much Mr chairman and Mr administrator uh you have to make some tough decisions given the budget and I don't envy you for that um it was interesting to hear about the uh Mars sample return decision and I I understand it better now that you've uh given us your testimony but are you are we really starting over with a clean slate on this uh or what's the need for additional technical analysis I mean where are we on this uh we are not starting over as a matter of fact I'm just saying we can't do it at 11 billion I'm not disagreeing with that and uh and a sample not even return until 2040 so let me give you an example of uh what the director of the jet propulsion laboratory said uh they're looking at instead of this huge Mars Lander that would then have an Ascent vehicle which was the original concept and was one thing of many that was running the cost whe out use existing Legacy proven techniques in Hardware such as the sky crane that landed two Landers Rovers the size of a truck we've got perseverance up there now running around digging these samples are about the size of a cigar sealed in titanium tubes we want to get most of those back so come up with new Concepts bring new ideas in this particular case it was using a particular Legacy but we want all those ideas to come forth and then sometime this fall when they're in on their deadline we will evaluate them and at that point make a decision going forward and hopefully it's going to be uh much more in what is in line with what the independent review board said and we've had about three of those uh and that was that the cost should not exceed somewhere in the $6 billion range let me um go to another topic in the NASA authorization Act of 2022 an act as part of chips and science we extended the enhanced use leasing Authority uh for 10 years for those not familiar with it that allows anasa to lease underutilized non- excess property owned by the federal government and under NASA's jurisdiction to private sector entity state and local governments academic institutions other federal agencies I know in terms of uh this has been very successful we've got UC Berkeley about to open we've had Carnegie melon there we've had various other entities USGS that has come in there's a Synergy that has been created how has this worked around the United States not just at ases uh and Google and Google yeah is another major uh yeah they're maintaining the field yes ma'am well it wasn't too long that ago that I was sitting on up here on Capitol Hill begging to get enhanced Lo use Authority instead of doing this peace meal one year at a time to get it for a number of years in the future in order to do just exactly what you have just outlined at ases and so um another one would be uh for example at stennis we've got this huge area uh because when you test rocket engines you want to have a buffer uh so that people are not disturbed by the sound of the rocket test uh so what we've done is we brought in other agencies of the federal government uh there and it becomes a mixed use uh space facility same thing at the Kennedy Space Center uh the Congressman uh posy uh can tell you I mean that place has come alive yeah uh those old rocket pads that had weeds growing on them have come back to life uh there's a lot of commercial activity there uh that has allowed uh because of in on with regard to NASA's Kennedy Space Center the mix use with the enhanced lease use let me just if I may Mr chairman ex make one more comment we uh the jet propulsion lab in California recently had to lay off more than 500 skilled talented employees as part of the pullback on MSR and I'm not disputing your decision I understand it but it's really tragic to lose that kind of talent do we have a plan to recapture that kind of talent that we've lost I mean Decades of of experience um that's a tragic situation do we have a way to recapture that well let me uh try to set the table for you as to why this occurred had we had our 24 request and 25 requests that wouldn't have happened however uh the Congress in its wisdom and I can tell you that if I had been in in your seat I would have voted for the bill because the alternative was the Federal Government to go into default uh and the government full faith and credit of the federal government to be imputed and the sacrifices the tradeoffs or the compromise if you will uh in order to get the votes to pass that in both houses was to cut the spending in both 24 and 25 NASA was cut 2 and a half billion dollars in almost in each of the years 24 and 25 science NASA science just in 24 was cut a billion dollars so if I've got a smaller potato sack that only holds five pounds of potatoes and I've got 10 pounds that I want to get it's hard for me to get those 10 pounds in that 5 pound sack I I've gone over and I I appreciate your comments I think it's really we should look in the mirror and I I appreciate that thank you very much Mr uh administrator I yield back gentle lady yields back the chair recognize the gentle Florida Mr posie for five minutes uh thank you very much Mr chairman and Mr to see you back again um regarding the the Deferred maintenance we have on the Aging structures um how do we make sure that we prioritize the infrastructure needs uh going down the down the road and I know it's the same problem slightly you just talked about that yes sir uh you can't build infrastructure without some money yeah and so where do we cut in the budget I just gave you one example that we're trying to still succeed with the Mars sample return at a a cost of about one half of what it was going projected to be uh infrastructure is one of the biggest problems we have it is aging infrastructure it's right there in your District but it's in every Center and Nas of facility in the country and what I'm hoping is is when you all get through with the cycle of 24 and 25 that come 26 with all of the fiscal other things that you have to consider that there might be some more uh Appropriations for NASA to address its facilities needs thank you uh can you speak to the importance of uh NASA's commercial Partners in supporting a space station say that again can you can you speak to the importance of NASA's commercial Partners uh supporting our space station oh absolutely and they are uh look at all the science uh with commercial partners that we have going on uh not only the science like Pharmaceuticals but uh the uh the planetary science that we have going on uh commercial Partners as we go back to the Moon uh we don't go back just as the US government we're going back with commercial partners and the example is most SpaceX and blue origin are developing Landers uh and once we have both then we'll make a choice between the two uh so uh commercial parts of NASA happen to go back to the 2010 NASA bill of which Kay Bailey Hutchinson of Texas and I had something to do with yeah uh could you explain how China uses spaces a foreign policy tool uh how China does or how all of us do yeah well uh let me say that uh you know when we fly a foreign astronaut that certainly is a part of a foreign policy tool uh when we do a uh a foreign an uh experiment uh when the University of Edinburgh is a major principal investigator on the James web Space Telescope that's all foreign policy as well likewise China does tries but is not nearly as successful as we are because they're much more secretive yeah in their space program yeah how do how do we counter uh their announcement that they're going to invite International astronauts to fly in their space station we've already done that many cases obviously been there done that but well we're not going to counter it we'll we'll see if they do it and to what extent it's just like they say that they want to put uh uh International uh contributions into an experimental uh place on the South Pole of the Moon uh of course my concern is that they don't get there first and then say this is our area you stay out because the South Pole of the moon is an important part uh we think because we think that there is water there and if there's water then there's Rocket Fuel and that's one reason we're going to the South uh pole of the Moon yeah that they're not going there to study the origins of man or collect rocks they're going there to colonize and everything that they do has a military component to it you know that I know that great great concern I see I'm about to run out of time this year on I back thank you gentleman's time has expired the chair now recognizes gentlem woman from Oregon Miss bonami for five minutes uh thank you Mr chairman and ranky member thank you uh for being here administrator Nelson nice to see you welcome back to the committee um I I thank you also for focusing your testimony on the many ways that NASA benefits America and one of those examples in your testimony is NASA's climate and earth science research which we know is so essential to you know the health of the planet really strengthening resilience in our communities and ecosystems those NASA satellites are so critical with the giving researchers the data they need to Monitor and uh forecast extreme weather events climate events um and we know the the um data also provides a wonderful educational opportunities to inspire the next uh generation of scientists and engage them engage the public and also thank you for the uh new Earth information center at your headquarters here in Washington DC helping with that critical piece of uh science improving science communication so you stated in your testimony that much of what we know about our changing planet is rooted in NASA's more than 40 Years of Earth observations uh and the suite of satellite resources supports that Earth Science Mission and the scientific Community providing a an access of we know variety of measurement data air quality missions ocean chemistry surface biology just to name a few and I'm especially excited about the contributions of the recently launched Pace uh satellite planked and aerosol Cloud ocean ecosystem Pace um satellite um to improve understanding of ocean health so NASA's budget for fiscal year 2025 proposes to restructure the Earth Science Observatory program by breaking missions into smaller elements so I wonder how did NASA arrive at this new strategy and what could this change have on NASA's long-term Earth measurements and climate research our strategy is to understand very specifically exactly what is happening to our earth and its climate uh we have about two dozen uh spacecraft up there now that are bringing us various pieces of technical information and we are pulling this together in a composite 3D understanding precisely what is happening you mentioned one that was more recently the pace pace is able to look at Plankton and we're able to trace it in the ocean like we've never been uh the a in there is aerosols which clearly has an effect Upon Our climate uh we had another one emit uh this is a spacecraft uh it was supposed to just look at dust storms and how that was affecting the climate lo and behold we got a big byproduct from it it could identify methane emissions very specific emissions so that we could go and try to stop those or in the case that it might be an industry the industry might even not know that it had methane emission Mr administrator I want to get another question I I certainly don't question the value of the program I just want to watch how the change in the in the budget um in this new strategy will affect it so you also talk about the work that NASA is doing to decarbonize the aviation industry and Aeronautics research programs like the sustainable flight National Partnership supports projects to increase uh air aircraft fuel efficiency for example uh and invest in electrified propulsion research could significantly reduce uh aircraft greenhouse gas emissions so Cons considering numerous delays and cost overruns what steps is NASA taking to see these projects through to completion and how can Congress support that work that NASA is doing on sustainable Aviation well we have a serious uh project that we invested upwards of 600 700 million dollar in a joint project with Boeing on producing a mid-range single Isle uh Transport Aircraft that will reduce fuel consumption by 30% that project is underway and that will be substantial you take uh like the Boeing 737 is the most heavily trafficked commercial airliner if you can save 30% of fuel by a different design of the wing a high Wing that's long and thin uh and therefore being high can support higher uh bigger uh fan Jets uh you can get 30% combination between the engine and the wing uh that's a substantial effort sure we started on electric aircraft but that's been overtaken by industry so uh you're you're going to see a lot of uh industry coming out with uh electric powered uh aircraft uh all of this is to do exactly what the goal is that you stated very eloquently and that is the word is sustainable I call it save energy and flying my time is expired I yell back thank you Mr chairman gent ladies time is expired the chair I recognize the gentem from Texas Mr Weber for five minutes thank you Mr chairman Mr minor good to see you again I'm constantly Amazed by how much you know about even aircraft and stuff like that where do you store all that stuff up here huh well Congressman it used to be I'm kind of like a bathtub uh you uh fill the bathtub up you drain it out and there's a residue on the side you fill it up again drain it out there's little more residue so over the number of years I kind of get an accumulation in here I have the sinking feeling you've discussed this before so let me go to my questions uh many of them employees at Johnson Space Center live in my district they're Dr Babin's the actual facilities in Dr Babin's District we're still trying to Route Clear Creek around it so it gets to be in my district so we've discussed the the orbiting of the ISS at the end of the decade uh but not so much what that does to the people that are that are employed backing that up so what does NASA plan to do with that Workforce that actually currently supports ISS mission after 2030 is there a plan well we want to keep them but a lot of that depends on what you appropriate uh as a matter of fact the fact that uh this two years 24 and 25 that NASA has been cut between the two years $4.7 billion from our initial request that's going to have an effect on some of the contracts uh at all NASA centers and I'm hoping that when you get to 26 that uh the Congress may see the wisdom of some of these programs but let me just assure you you got a lot of folks at Johnson you got a lot of really good folks on good programs uh you'll never have to face the situation that I had to face as a senator for the Kennedy Space Center when we shut down the space shuttle they had 15,000 employees es and they went immediately down to 7,000 employees that's not happening anywhere in NASA now it's much more manageable but a lot of it depends on the wisdom of the Congress in the future well I remember the shuttle program going away and I know that that was heavy on people's hearts and I'm assuming that they're probably thinking right about now are we fa facing a similar demise coming forth are you all communicating this to the employee group absolutely and what we are also doing since you posited the question about the deorbiting of the International Space Station uh we want to do that only when we have commercial space stations in low earth orbit in order to do the research and the training and so forth that we need to do in L low earth orbit for our astronauts as they go further out into the cosmos we think that by 2031 that the business case will have easily been made for low earth orbit commercial space stations and we have put seed money significant seed money into three commercial operations that are now developing commercial stations well we appreciate NASA taking the lead on that so thank you for that uh China's I'm not sure to say Ching gong space station is in Orbit and the CCP would love to whittle down on American dominance in space wherever they can now your previous comments about commercial are very very encouraging with the coming deorbit of the ISS what is NASA's plan to main maintain American competitiveness with China when it comes to presence in low earth order you said a little bit about it but extrapolate expand on that some we want to be we don't want China to be in the lead you're you remember the you remember Captain Kirk the final frontier extrapolate expand on what you mean by that and by the way uh that not letting them be in the lead means Beyond low earth orbit also I agree it means also Moon Mars and Beyond I agree uh so um for example we never want to give up this uh incredible uh scientific research in Leo uh we are on the cusp of major breakthroughs coming up on Pharmaceuticals for disease let me give you an example of two number one Kuda and a very effective drug on certain types of cancer but the cancer patient has to take it intravenously frequently long periods of time they have with that drug found out how through protein crystal growth on the space station to make that drug into a shot instead of intravenous so that the patient can go in get a quick shot at the doctor uh that's one example stem cell research being used on a whole plethora of diseases what happens when you grow stem cells in Zer G you can grow a lot more of them uh on earth when you grow them they all Clump to the bottom and a lot of them die in space they're suspended and they don't die as much you then freeze them and bring them back and that is just in its infancy in research but there's a lot of promise there well thank you for that I'm my time but I it's fascinating we appreciate all the help gentleman's time expired chair recognizes the gentle lady from North Carolina M Ross for five minutes uh thank you chairman Lucas and ranking member lren for holding this hearing and to administrator Nelson thank you for the fabulous job you are doing at Nasa um my state of North Carolina has contributed to NASA for decades it's the home state of James web um and then of course Christine Darden one of NASA's hidden figures who broke barriers in the stem industry and in gender and Racial equality is from North Carolina we have three members of the science committee from North Carolina including um my colleague uh congresswoman fushi but Christine was uh the first African-American woman to be promoted into senior executive service at NASA's Langley Research Center and just last week I got to join Governor Cooper uh a local educator and a third grade class from the explorist school in my district to honor astronaut Christina cook um and she's a three-time grad of NC State University and as you know the only woman selected to join the Artemis 2 mission um she was also a participant in an all women Space Walk which we're still celebrating um I want you to know that I will continue to fight for robust funding for NASA so that we can keep doing the incredible things that you have been leading and um everything that makes groundbreaking research possible so to that end I want to follow up on some of the workforce issues that we've heard about today um so we hear a lot from the burgeoning commercial space sector and we know that that benefits the nation exploration our economy and that's good but it also means that there's Inc increased competition for trained Aerospace professionals and I wanted to know from you to what extent does that increased competition for Science and Technical professionals affect NASA and your ability to fill and retain experienced top-notch people congresswoman you have put your foot your finger on the Allure of Private Industry indry to bring NASA folks into Private Industry because they can pay them so much more uh is a real concern however there seems to be a mysterious pixie dust at Nasa that people enjoy working there and that's the proofs in the pudding about what some of these Wizards do now certainly our any success that we might have is due to the commercial sector as well because the body that you think of as NASA which is about 60,000 employees is basically about 177,000 uh civil servants and 45,000 contractors they all wear the NASA badge but they're all part of the NASA family uh and it's that combination that we've been able to be successful and again I tell you everything we do is right on the edge and when we launch next Monday night it's White Knuckle time uh but that's the business we're in and these folks really are rather incredible um we I absolutely agree with you um NASA's stem engagement programs are also important to building that Pipeline and to stem students and Learners of all ages and it's important to track the impact and efficiency of our stem Investments and I'm glad to see your progress in developing and maximizing the use of stem Gateway um that's the database that does lets us know what's going on could you speak more about the stem Gateway and NASA's evaluation work in the office of stem engagement yes ma'am uh you've been generous with us in the Appropriations to keep this uh stem effort going uh reaching out with grants uh to universities colleges uh community colleges All Over America uh we particularly for example uh make an effort to get into rural colleges and universities so that we're not missing the talent that might be hidden out there like Christina cook exactly uh and and so there is a very serious effort there we have a a huge intern program at Nasa that we pay them uh we end up hiring 30% of our interns uh I wish you could could see some of these interns and talk to them their their eyes are as big as this with excitement telling what they're working on uh stem is very much a part and Mr chairman let me just say as a part of stem what we learned from Apollo when we went to the moon and did all of that it so excited two generations of students that they became engineers and scientists and technicians uh and we're going to see the same thing come out of the emisa program as we go back to the moon and then to Mars thank you and I yield back gentle ladies time is expired the chair now turns to the gentem Texas Mr Babin for five minutes sir thank you Mr chairman and Mr administrator good to see you and um I really liked your analogy about the bathtub a while ago um after a few decades you know I guess all of us have a little residue in there I just need a little bit more in mine but thank you so very much amen uh for what you're doing and uh your inspiration and uh I I say that very very sincerely um talking about stem and the excitement and the inspiration that NASA instills in our youth uh to go forward to to create these Wizards so it's very exciting thank you I'd like to start uh by U keeping priority programs talking about this uh on track and submitting a FY 25 budget request that largely complies with the fiscal responsibility uh act that the president signed in May and as we work on the fy2 request we we also have to finalize the fy2 24 budget uh I'd like to work with you to ensure that NASA remains on track despite the challenging budget environment that we find ourselves in now as you work with appropriators to finalize the 24 spending plan I'd like to call your attention to a few priorities of mine uh to maintain existing funding levels within space operations budget uh Congress provided you with a great deal of latitude and we hope that you were U able to use this in a way uh to use this funding appropriately for space operations and I want to make sure that we're we're all on the same page uh while the final 24 Appropriations for NASA space operations is 46.7 million below ffy 23 levels the 24 requests included 180 million uh for the de orbital V vehicle the usdv for ISS the original schedule for awarding a contract for usdv has slipped several times under even the current plan to award a contract this summer NASA could be challenged uh to allocate funding for usdv within FY 24 based on current schedules and I believe that within this given timeline NASA could maintain current ISS operations at 23 uh 23 rates is critical now more than ever to maintain the full functionality of the International Space Station that Mr Weber had had mentioned in his questioning and support our current crew and cargo missions because of the the amazing things that going there I was a healthc care professional myself and your story about cancer and creating uh drugs and and things up in in zerog are very very fascinating I was pleased to see you mention on Capitol Hill two weeks ago the necessity of keeping the ISS fully operational until we have a follow on clld it's critical that we maintain our presence in Leo uh for the very reason that he brought up one ago the the Ching gong uh uh Chinese U uh craft is up there as we speak and so Mr administrator I know that you don't have this information at your fingertips right now but will you provide us with a following information as soon as possible so that we can understand the full range of options that NASA has in implementing the 24 appropriation so that ISS uh program can continue to return the Great science and advanced exploration that's been coming back number one the amount of funding obligated for the usdv and 24 number two an updated schedule for the award of the contract for usdv number three a list of full-time equivalents and worke equivalent Personnel uh for the ISS program for each fiscal quarter uh for the Last 5 Years and number four Workforce cost and contractor rates associated with the ISS program including contractors over the last 5 years and last number five Workforce costs and contractor rates planned for the ISS program over the next 5 years Mr administrator I stand ready to work with you you're a joy to work with I've always appreciated you and the great work you've done uh in Your Capacity as our administrator uh but we need to ensure that NASA has the necessary Workforce and funding to enable the continued success amazing success 22 years of the International Space Station can I count on you to work with me on this of course and I can tell you that the first question that you ask uh in the 24 budget there is 180 million dollar for the starting of a US deor bit vehicle which I am begging the Congress in the next emergency Appropriations Bill the one that will address Guam and the typhoon for the Department of Defense as well as NASA that you include within that in the argument that I made earlier in the hearing uh that that is an emergency because we don't know what President Putin's going to be doing right and therefore we cannot count uh that we will have the cooperation all the way through the next 6 years in order to be able to deorbit the station safely into most of it will burn up but the big chunks that are left to put them safely in the graveyard in the Southern Pacific Ocean and uh uh we we desperately uh request that that 180 million and the rest of the six-year total funding of a billion and a half for the US deorbit vehicle uh be put in the emergency uh supplemental Appropriations understand very very clearly thank you Mr time has expired the chair now recognizes the gentleman from Illinois Mr Sorenson for 5 minutes good morning I joined the chairman and the rank in member and welcoming administrator Nelson uh back to the committee uh thank you for your leadership of of NASA during this important time and for our nation space program as a self-described science nerd uh being a meteorologist and now a member of Congress I often tell my neighbors back in Illinois how important science is I explain to them how investing in science helps grow our economy create good paying sustainable jobs and address problems our neighbors face every day and that is why I Champion investing in NASA one of our nation's leading science agencies and why the work that you and Folks at Nasa do is so important um just this month millions of Americans were looking up uh through their their glasses at an eclipse it's my hope that the next generation is interested in science because of what happened but also as we look up we're learning more and more about how solar storms on the sun bring us not only beautiful displays of the Aurora Borealis but recent events that disrupt technology and infrastructure why is NASA proposing to cut so much of the heloh physics division uh funding if we have such a need and understanding well we're not congressman and by the way as uh Congressman Babin is still here I want to thank the two of you for how you get along uh you as ranking and he is Chairman in the uh subcommittee uh we wouldn't have had we not had to cut a billion dollars from slience and that as a result of the compromises that were made in order to for the country not to go into default on its debt and I understand that and I said I would have voted that way but it's a hard reality for us and you have to make some choices of where you're you're spending now the truth is we got a lot of good stuff going on in hel physics uh and so uh we're going to continue uh the president proposes the Congress disposes right right and so um administrator if if we in Congress are forced to continually cut budgets year after year does that mean that there's going to be a growing Gap in funding because the public sector and the private sector move farther away and so I guess what I'm saying is how do we meet the objectives for instance of the issd orbit and the Artemis missions if we have a forecast for a growing Gap in funding well that's what I have been pleading for that come 26 when you get out from under the constraints of 24 and 25 that you will hopefully uh be a little more generous in making sure that there's not that Gap that you describe what do you think we need to do to make sure I'm going to go back to the young stem student for a moment when we look forward to what we are going to learn um how do we continue to build the workforce that we're going to meet need to meet our objectives well the enthusiasm is certainly there uh we're trying to steer them in a way by having them and we have a lot of interns we send out a lot of Grants uh we try to distribute that across the board uh so that you're finding Talent wherever it is and get them enthused another thing we do we have a secret weapon H and it's called an astronaut in a Blue flight suit right and we frequently have our astronauts go into classrooms and I'm telling you there's nothing like getting attention and suddenly excitement into the stem field when they start talking about space flight I always look forward to Bringing NASA astronauts in my district and I hope we can do that again here soon my is expired I'll yield back but uh thank you so much administrator thank you thank you and I'd like to recognize the gentleman from California Mr Garcia thank you Mr chairman Mr Man good to see you again feels like it was just last week uh because it was um I've been losing sleep over this this uh Mars sample recovery thing for a couple months now and JPL especially the to use your bathtub metaphor the The Brain Drain there right now is real we are losing critical National Security uh talent and Workforce uh there I know the plan I don't disagree with it I get the metaphor of hey you had a 5B bag and you got 10 pounds of potatoes that you're trying to fit into that bag and and you had to make trades but I would submit that this is no small potato what I'm afraid of is that when we go to open that bag up in FY 26 after we get healthy back on track and you get responses from the Sara that you're going to be seeing just potentially uh you know potato chip chip crumbs at the bottom that used to be JPL um so what I'm worried about is the next four months five months it is there something we can do collectively to keep them whole to to not impart another significant impact to to jpl's Workforce uh because I'm hearing hearing it from adjacent domains uh missions agencies that those layoffs are affecting not just you know NASA science but also uh uh DOD nro National true National Security implications across the board we don't need to get into specifics there but can we work together to look at potential options to bridge um the next four or five months somehow to to prevent that bathtub from being drained um to the point where it's irreparable damage Congressman I've been losing sleep over this too uh the good news is uh what I reported earlier you I think were out of the room I had a I was here I got you I heard I had that conversation yesterday yeah with the head of JPL and uh Dr Dr lesen feels that they're going to be able to come up with a retrieval of the Mars sample enough sample return and get that cost down by using new and creative ideas and old Legacy ideas that are much less costly and so I approach this uh optimistically Ally and uh certainly to get a sample back before 2040 sure that's just too long that's way too long so is it what I guess walk me through the next some from an acquisition timeline and your acquisition strategy on this RFI you're going to get responses here in May June some ens I'm sure some questions that are going to go back to to jpp and under other industry Partners is there an opportunity to fund before say October 1st and and start funding this new approach at some level that is not just necessarily the 330 million that that we ended up landing on it's somewhere in the fall that we can take the ideas that are generated and then put that into a contract okay so it may be enough confidence for a vendor and I'm not trying to put a finger on the scale on Source selection here I want to be very clear this is this is an open competition I'm assuming no one has the inside track and this is not pre-wired for anyone but uh when you get the good ideas back from all of the competitors uh you may be able to instill enough confidence in one of whoever the the the the down select folks are one or two however many players are to go ahead and do long lead Investments on their own at risk knowing that there's a Lifeline coming in an fy2 line item that would allow him to go execute this program with confidence That's My Hope Congressman okay that's uh that's very encouraging that's I think the very important thing for us all all to be aligned on so Congressman I had to do battle to keep this thing from being no I know you did you did God's work and and we didn't help you uh the uh I think it's the executive branch as much as the legislative branch and uh but I I think the key now is to figure out how to make 1+ 1 equal 3 and uh to get to a lower price point get the samples back uh before 2040 um and then but but more importantly keep that center of the universe uh asset in in Passad a whole uh and if not whole at least sufficiently uh so that they're not sufficiently stat so they're not getting below critical mass so I appreciate everything you've done Mr administrator thank you for continuing to do that and looking forward to that partnership over the next few months so thank you sir appreciate you you'll back thank you very much and now I'd like to recognize the gentle lady from North Carolina Miss fushi thank you Mr chairman and thank you administrator nesson for being with us here today the safety of NASA's astronauts is always top of mind for me and for everyone involved in overseeing our nation's Space Program I know how deeply and personally you care about safety and I know how Vigilant you are ensuring that NASA maintains a robust safety culture informed by the lessons of Challenger and Colombia with which we are all so tragically familiar but the world of human space flight has changed dramatically for NASA over the past decade through the commercial crew program the agency now regularly sends its astronauts to the International Space Station on rockets that are designed built and operationally managed by private contractors the agency is increasingly looking to use this Commercial Services model for other human space flight programs as well as a result NASA must be capable of conducting rigorous oversight over the safety cultures of its contractors to prevent the development of blind spots in its own ability to ensure Mission safety I believe it is critical for the agency to have well-crafted and targeted oversight procedures that can Ure its contractors are every bit as committed to a culture of safety as NASA is itself so my first question is what tools and procedures does NASA possess to evaluate contractor safety culture that is at the top of the list of everything that we do we evaluate uh them we are all over the design we are all over the building of uh whatever the spacecraft or uh instruments are and at the end of the day NASA if it is a human uh space flight NASA has the veto thank you for that if NASA makes recommendations to a contractor about how they can improve their safety culture do you expect the agency to follow up with the contractor to make sure that the recommendations have been adopted we do that and we do it all the time okay and finally do you believe NASA's ability to conduct safety culture oversight of commercial service providers is impacted by the agency's Reliance on those providers for indispensable Mission support if that means are we letting anything slip we better not that's what it means thank you so much Mr chairman and may I point out to you congresswoman that uh uh one of the tragic uh uh results of uh in attention was the Space Shuttle Challenger and the pilot of Challenger was Mike Smith from North Carolina thank you I yeld back Mr chairman yes ma'am thank you and uh I'd like to recognize the gentle woman from Oklahoma Miss Bice thank minutes thank you Mr chairman and administrator it was great to see you in Oklahoma under a bit of sad circumstances with the passing of General Thomas Stafford uh we celebrated his life a couple of weeks ago and I was honored to be a part of that and thank you for recognizing and honoring such an incredible okah homean let me start by um asking you I am still fairly new to Congress this is my second term and what I have noticed is that there seems to be a lot of work being done in the space Arena but we tend to in some cases be siloing a lot of that work how can NASA the FAA and the dod strategically pull resources and expertise to conduct essential research in an area of fiscal in an era of fiscal constraint that ensures will have continued inovation crucial for maintaining uh Global Leadership in civilian Aviation well Aviation research is the first a in NASA the National Aeronautics and Space Administration so where did the wing tips come from that improve the efficiency of the wing where does the design of the wing it often these things that make Aviation safer more efficient and earlier in the meeting I described for example The Joint project that we have with Boeing to try to have that single aisle mid-range transport save 30% of fuel all of this is a major part of what we do it's not just space it's not just Aeronautics it's also the climate as well because we have the instruments that measure the climate uh we're coming into a new era of air Mobility particularly in urban areas so the old idea of the Jetson suddenly flying around that's right upon us uh and we are researching that and what we found is that a lot of industry uh commercial Enterprises are having major breakthroughs in that and so uh I'm uh we're all over Aviation and and that is clearly a very proud part of NASA you sort of briefly touched on this but I think it's worth maybe diving a little deeper into it um as you look at sort of what the next phase of um space looks like what keeps you up at night um at the end of the day defying the forces of gravity with millions of pounds of thrust putting human beings up there in a very unforgiving uh atmosphere and bringing them back alive through the fiery heat of re-entry for the astronauts coming back from the Moon they'll hit 5,000 degrees fahr so uh that hopefully doesn't keep me com up completely all night but I know that everything that we do like that we're right on the edge but that's the part of Discovery that's the part of Adventure that's the part of being in a frontier mode going out there and doing unusual things President Kennedy said it best at Rice University in the stadium in September of 62 he said we go to the moon and do other things not because it's easy but because it's hard and what we do is hard but it's worth doing thank you and I I'll just um maybe be wrap up by mentioning there's a lot of work being done I think uh by NASA to encourage young people to consider um getting into the sort of Aviation Space and I think we need to make sure that we continue that and focus on it because I have been to um you know some of the facilities and when you see these young people walking through uh looking at astronaut suits and previous videos they get such excitement and I think we need to continue to Foster that because they are the future uh of NASA so with that Mr chairman I yield thank you very much and I'd like to recognize the gentleman from Illinois Mr Caston thank you Mr uh Mr acting chair and thank you Mr administrator for being here um I want to chat a little bit about the the the tempo Mission uh that you've got under way and if if I understand this right and correct me if I've got this wrong geosynchronous monitoring North America and sort of hourly neighborhood level granularity am I am I about right on that of the the monitoring capability it's going to have uh just one second this this is this is the this is the mission that's monitoring um Lo local pollutants um in in the atmosphere well it is one of the ones that is doing that uh and what we are trying to understand all these different things that affect our climate such as dust MH uh such as aerosols uh such as uh the changing of the elevation of oceans and fresh water uh all of these missions are designed on some particular aspect of then putting it all together in a 3D composite yep and I'm I'm uh totally supportive of the mission I'm I guess my first question is just is that is is that going to be the the highest temporal and spatial resolution we're going to have on this level of monitoring at least from a space BAS system well it is the next iteration okay but we'll get even more sophisticated as we go on and and will the data that comes out of that be publicly available or is there is there any concern about I mean I could think of national security reasons why you might not we might want to be a little cautious about a particular plume I could also Imagine reasons why the private sector might be reluctant so what's going to be the process for that data being made available to the public it's available okay in real time as it's as it's released well there'll be a lag of some seconds you know as it comes back to Earth okay um that's cool um is there is there the potential to do that globally and I'm and I'm thinking about things like several years ago there was this concern concern about um hydrocarbon leaks from China that were violating International treaties and I would imagine from a national security perspective if we had the ability to pinpoint where that leak was coming from at a specific point it might be in our national interest the Chinese might have been reluctant is there the potential to make this Global or does that create some some diplomatic problems global global okay um just like what I mentioned earlier we have one up there called emit it was going to look at dust coming uh uh off of the Sahara lo and behold uh unexpectedly it can pinpoint very specifically methane leaks oh wow and that's Global so you are going to be monitoring methane from this as well absolutely okay it's it's already happening um well you're you're reading my mind and I'm intrigued and and let us know how we can continue to help this I I'm a part of what I'm thinking about on this is that we we are going down the path to have Global methane monitoring Global methane tracking as a as a climate forcing compound in the atmosphere we know that methane leak rates exceed what is documented right you know if you look at like the the balance on natural gas extraction and what's sold we know there's a gap that's bigger and it's really hard to pinpoint exactly who's responsible to the extent that this has the ability to get granular and temporal I I would assume that this starts to be something where we can look and say okay this specific entity at this time of day was operating in that location and so we have some accountability will that data then be I guess what's the plan to coordinate with other agencies on on the use of this data um it is available and it also is very specific this is what was such a pleasant surpris about the spacecraft uh emit uh we can pinpoint methane emissions now so uh specifically that for example if there's a real polluter we've got the evidence but what we find out is that some Industries don't even know yeah that they are emitting methane and so this is valuable information uh for that industry to be able to stop it w well I I and methane of course is one of the major greenhouse gases that's and carbon dioxide no it's precisely why I asked the question we were we were up in Alaska last year and looking at permafrost melt and how you figure out you know where the global balance goes and how you track all that well it's fascinating um happy to have you here proud to have you here and uh look forward to working with you to make sure that we can continue to expand these programs yield back all right sir thank you very much uh now I'd like to recognize gentleman from Georgia Dr McCormick thank you Mr chair and and uh it's good to see you Mr administrator Senator Captain astronaut uh there are seldom times where I get to see somebody who has as many titles as I do and and more and actually uh somebody who I'm a little envious of uh is somebody who's done something I want to do that I haven't been able to do as a matter of fact if you have any advice for a guy who uh would love to follow your tracks into space someday as a dock and pilot just let me know I I'll be happy to meet with you for lunch we need medical doctors to go to Mars I'm sure a lot of my constituents would like to send me there appreciate you um uh being here today and all seriousness NASA and space exploration are virtual are vital for our national security economic growth scientific advancement International Prestige and our inspiration As Americans uh just recently the URI Astro lab incorporates a startup founded by a veteran spaceflight robotics engineer has unveiled a groundbreaking prototype of a lunar rover the flexible Logistics and exploration vehicle Flex uh if NASA integrates Flex into the Artemis program it will Mark the return of Passenger capable roll Rover to the lunar surface s Apollo 17 in 1972 it's this kind of discovery that inspires the future generations of scientists engineers and explorers it's pretty exciting to me too uh with this being said nesa NASA has been plagued by the same issues for years constant deadline extensions flawed cost estimating processes and poor financial management administrator Nelson in your testimony you highlighted the great success of the International Space Station in the Milestone of 23 years with continuous human presence in low orbit Earth uh as anasa approaches its 2030 deadline to decommission the International Space Station and aims to transition to a commercially owned and operated Platforms in the low earth orbit do you believe that NASA has an obligation to ensure continued human presence in the low earth orbit yes great and and you know it's it's funny I'm going to get a little bit off track we just recently talked about some of the the pollutants and and how Earth might be warming and I agree there might be climate change uh I think the one thing that worries me is that we get away from science in a senate article that was published back in 2007 it talked about the heating of other planets in our solar system this is back in 2007 is continued would you say there's more concrete carbon dioxide and vehicle emissions in Neptune Jupiter and Mars during this period of time just like there is in in this earth I don't know I I would say probably not because I don't know if anybody who's building concrete or or uh who has vehicle emissions in those planets they're also heating I would say that's pretty much factual unless we know unless you know some life that you haven't told us about so far well what I do know is that we are seeing uh the heating up of the earth and our instruments have indicated that and we've seen wouldn't discount that at all sir and I'm just saying that it's happened to other planets in the solar system too that don't have the same challenge as we do now I want to I want to be scientific you and I are scientists by Nature we love facts we love to talk about things that matter things that we can change but I also don't want to waste time and money on things we cannot change back in the 70s we're talking about global cooling during some of the highest carbon di dioxide emissions of all time and we've seen decreases in certain pollutants while the Earth is heating so I just want to have a scientific conversation with you and I about what's really causing the heating and can we affect it or do we need to put our money elsewhere to help us adjust for those while the Earth continues its natural cycle because I am a Scientist I do understand how much carbon dioxide are there and how much the United States produces as a global percentage of that carbon dioxide would you agree that it could be due to something other than methane and carbon dioxide that's causing the Earth to heat well there are mult multiple there you go yes sir and that's what I I agree with you 100% as a scientist multiple factors some which we can and some which we cannot affect I just want to see our money go to the right place I know I'm almost out of time I'm going to ask you one more Qui question uh commercial and international patterns are key to the success of the emis campaign the commercial lunar PUD service the clps program housed within the science Mission directorate has resulted in the first ever landing on the moon by a commercial entity and the first us landing in over 50 years are there opportunities beyond the commercial lunar payload service where the Artemis campaign and science Mission directorate have mutual interests in the development of commercial capabilities when we uh are going back to the Moon as a result of I take it back to the 2010 NASA authorization Bill we said we're we're going to do it in a different way we're going back with commercial partners the clips program that you just mentioned interestingly is like we are sending Scouts Into the Wilderness ahead of time on the South Pole to scout out for us before we get our astronauts there on the surface so that we've got a better idea one of the things that we're clearly looking for is uh water uh we've got uh a couple of instruments that are going this year on Clips missions one called intuitive machines that is actually going to be digging on the South Pole uh to see if there's water content we know there's water there because we've seen the ice in the crevices of the constantly shattered rocks but this is all a part of making the Space Program something larger than just as we went to the moon before and we're going to the Moon by the way not just to go to the Moon we're going to the Moon to learn how then we can go all the way to Mars and Beyond thank you sir I'm without time so I yield thank you uh I'd like to recognize gentoman from Virginia Miss mlen thank you Mr chairman uh Mr director Senator Nelson um I actually am going to start with a question from my 13-year-old son uh who wants to be an astronomer who is a big fan of the great observatories uh he looks at uses uh images from Hubble um Spitzer and even the now deorbited uh Compton um telescopes but he wants me to ask you specifically about Chandra the the xray um telescope that under the current budget proposal looks like will be could be ending and he's very concerned as I know a number of astronomers are that this could leave a a blind spot in the collection of uh x-ray information in the future so can you assure my 13-year-old son Jackson that NASA is still committed to uh x-ray images in space and the data that you collect uh in that way um earlier I had talked about how the compromises that you all had to make which are certainly understandable caused 24 and 25 to have less money in science uh just in 24 it's a billion dooll cut and so you have to make uh some choices Chandra has been phenomenally successful but we have new missions that are coming on uh we're going to keep it going as much as we can uh you just can't sustain it at the previous funding levels and so uh we are having a senior review during this year uh to get community impact on alternative operational scenarios for Chandra and the Hubble Space Telescope as well to move to a more cost effective way uh I can't spend for NASA money that we don't have I understand that I understand that and I think uh I think that that question that I just asked is an example of how important it is that uh NASA makes science fun and exciting for kids because again the images that he has seen from these telescopes have gotten him more interested and fascinated in in stem uh subjects in school than anything else that his father and I could have done may I point out that Chandra is 25 years old and it's having operational issues with regard to Thermal problems so we're going to keep it going as much as we can but we have to lessen the funding and I understand that um but could you speak to uh the some of NASA's programs that are focused on our young students particularly during the summer and time they spend out of school so that we can uh get more students as passionate about uh Space and Science as my son is well for example the discoveries that we're having with the James Webb Space Telescope is just phenomenal uh every day almost it seems like there's a new discovery if he's particularly uh interested in the far reaches of this Universe uh it's not too long we're already discovering other planets with that uh the ones that we've found thus far are gasas but we've got another mission coming that your son as he grows up and it stays interested in this is going to be interesting it's called the Nancy Grace Roman Space Telescope followed by habitable World Space Telescope in the 2040s we're going to be able to find other Stony planets that are just the right distance from a mediumsized star that has carbon and uh water on them and lo and behold that's beginning to be another planet like planet Earth I mean there's so many uh possibilities out there thank you and and going to more college students can you talk about how NASA's budget will continue to support Partnerships with HBCU and increase Outreach efforts to students who are currently underrepresented in the stem fields we specifically reach out to HBCU and other minority institutions in the grants that we give out we make sure that we do that and an example I gave earlier in the hearing is that for for example we give grants to rural universities and colleges that otherwise might not uh a student there might not have uh the opportunity of receiving a grant like that so we're trying as hard as we can to distribute it across the country thank you I Y back thank you very much and now I'd like to recognize gentleman from Alabama Mr strong thank you chairman bavin ranking me member Lofgren uh administrator Nelson thank you and your staff for being here today to discuss NASA's fy2 budget request I have the privilege of representing Alabama's fifth Congressional District home to NASA's Marshall space flight center I'd like to take this opportunity to express my sincere gratitude to all the hardworking civil servants and contractors at Marshall I would like to also note that I have full faith and confidence uh in Marshall's newest director Joseph P Pelfrey Mr administ following a successful uncrewed SLS test flight in late 2022 your agency planned to launch a crude lunar uh flyby mission emis 2 in November of 24 earlier this year your Administration revealed that because of various hardware issues the Artemis 2 mission is now delayed until September of 2025 nearly one year behind schedule Mr administrator what specifically led to this nearly oneyear delay and what impact will this have on future Artemis missions safety we do not fly until it's ready and we never will as long as I'm around uh I've seen uh seven of my friends uh suddenly uh be killed in the Challenger disaster that was 10 days after the flight that I was on uh we are sending a whole new spacecraft and a whole new rocket to the moon uh we're going to make sure that that heat shield is functioning as it should be because they are coming in hot and fast they're coming in at Mach 32 and it's 5,000 de uh this new spacecraft Orion is a very complicated uh machine and and we're just simply not going to fly it until it's ready thank you thank you delays always lead to need for more money and in a physically constrained environment that that concerns me as the leader of NASA what actions have you taken to ensure that Artemis 3 uh Mission and future Artemis Mission stay on schedule well again we're not going to fly them until they're ready but in this case aremis 3 is the first landing on the moon we have contract Ed with SpaceX for September of 26 that's the contractual date but if they're not ready obviously we're not going to fly Okay Marshall is home to the best propulsion experts in the nation Marshall has also Pro proven successful in manufacturing projects uh such as the rapid analysis and Manufacturing propulsion technology how is NASA leveraging additive manufacturing to best optimized technology for future Moon to Mars missions and deep space exploration Marshall has a brilliant future uh in nuclear thermal propulsion and nuclear electric propulsion and I think it's going to take that to get us to Mars because right now it'd take us seven or eight months with conventional chemical propulsion once you got there you'd have to stay on the surface a year or two until the planets realigned so that you could get back in seven or eight months I totally agree I think that's the only way we can get there I think we got to go faster absolutely Marshall was partnered with Auburn University's national Center for additive manufacturing Excellence uh to improve the uh performance of liquid rocket engines liquid uh rocket engines serve as the core stage for NASA's space launch system also managed at Marshall how can we the how can advancements and additive manufacturing and liquid rocket engine performance be le leveraged by NASA to mitigate emis admission delays we're doing that all the time all of those new uh discoveries uh we improve as we go that's the whole point of uh the development of the Space Program the president's budget request proposed uh funding the space operations account below the level required for full operational maintenance of the international space station and the crew and cargo program as well as future commercial low earth orbit destinations what strategies is NASA exploring to ensure operational flexibility within the outlin budget while maintaining its commitment uh to trans transitioning from the International Space Station to commercial low earth orbit platforms by 20 uh 30 and intergrating Commercial Services without interruption are you asking specifically about the end of the International Space Station yes sir okay that's 2031 we want to keep it going for the next uh six years uh why because look at all the science that's on it but we want to replace it with commercial stations so that all the science the training all the things that we do in low earth orbit can be done on a commercial station which at the same time has a business model that they can make money on a commercial station bringing business off the face of the Earth up to Leo now uh we have put some serious incentive money into three commercial companies to build a commercial space station and uh that is the intent by 2031 when we would deorbit the space station uh that there would be the commercial stations ready to go thank you Mr administrator Mr chairman a yel back yes sir gentleman's time's expired uh we're down to just a few minutes to go vote and so if it's okay with you Mr administrator we will reconvene as soon as we get through the last vote okay how many votes do you have Mr C chairman seven oh my yeah uh they're about they two-minute votes okay two minute votes that okay yes sir yes sir okay thank you very much if you make two-minute votes you've done a miracle more than I've ever seen we're going to try and now I've got to run down there in two minutes too okay thank you thanks committee thank you for indulging us while we had to cast nine votes Mr administrator so thank you uh it's good to see you on the floor too I hope that brought back good old memories okay well we're going to resume our five minutes of questioning by our members and U let's see Mr tonco uh from new gentleman from New York you're first for five minutes of questioning well thank you so much yes sir I thank the chair and the ranking member for this important hearing today and thank you to administrator Nelson for the work you do to ensure the success of the world's preeminent civil space agency and your awesome leadership that you provide uh up in my district New York's Capital Region I'm deeply proud of the critical research and Tech development being done at world-class academic institutions such as rler poly Technic Institute I'm particularly thinking about the R&D there that relies on funding from the biological and physical science division within NASA's science Mission directorate the BPS division funding provides novel opportunities to better understand the impact of the space environment on both life and physical sciences discoveries made on the International Space Station with BPS funding have advanced our understanding of quantum mechanics and helped uh facilitate the advancement of semiconductor-based electronics the BPS has also enabled advances in immunotherapy regenerative medicine osteoporosis treatments and neurodegenerative diseases despite how important this research is the BPS budget within the science Mission directorate remains severely underfunded and was acknowledged as such in the recent decadal survey in February or excuse me in fiscal year 23 and BPS budget was 84% less than it was in 2004 and as a result the number of investigators in the state of New York has decreased by some 67% causing significant reductions in Education and Training and negatively impacting the local economy specifically at rler Poly Technic Institute the BPS division currently funds approximately four pis and over 25 graduate and undergraduate students however just a few years ago that number was closer to seven piis without significant reinvestment Labs funded by BPS will no longer be sustainable as the number of Grants awarded is reduced and be and be forced to change research directions threatening the success of NASA's exploration goals so administrator Nelson how is is NASA attempting to be responsive to the Ambitions of reinvestment from the biological and physical sciences Community to Cal survey in this constrained budget environment Congressman when uh John Glenn first flew we weren't sure what was going to happen to the physical body there was even concern that would the eyeballs stay in the sockets we had flown a chimpanzee uh prior but you just think when you don't know what's going to be the physical biological uh reaction and how far we now have advanced where we are realistically getting ready uh to go back to the Moon in order to prepare to go to Mars uh and so the function of the amount of grants that would go to a university such as the very imminent one that you just mentioned in your district is a function of the amount of the budget that you give us uh just in Sciences in this fiscal year 24 uh because of the constraints that are upon you in 24 and 25 as a result of the compromise reach to be able to avoid the default of the Full Faith and Credit of the United States government uh for example just in science it's a billion doll cut in 24 a similar cut in 25 once you get to 26 and don't have the constriction that you have on the budget I wish that you would because the area that you have specified are areas that we have to know what's going to happen in order to send humans all the way to Mars the Moon is four days away Mars is 7 to8 months away unless we develop the new uh Technologies uh such as propulsion of nuclear thermal nuclear electric propulsion that could get us there faster uh if we go conventionally six S 8 months then we're going to have to stay on the surface a very long time until the planets realign to get back in seven or eight months so these are all the part of the challenges but they're also exciting problems to solve and uh we will keep those grants going to universities because that that is a main source of the research that we do at Nasa thank you sir uh Mr chair I have another question that I was going to ask out I'm out of time so I will forward that to the uh committee but it's my hope that through this budget process Congress will recognize the crucial importance of This research to help BPS and NASA fully realize its Mission and with that I yield back thank you very much I'd like to now recognize the gentleman from Ohio Mr Miller thank you Mr chairman appreciate it it's good to see you again administrator uh it's good to see you in Northeast Ohio just a couple couple of weeks ago uh for the eclipse and I really appreciate you coming out to Cleveland and spending the afternoon with us it really means a lot and to have you there is very special uh while you were out there we had some great conversations including about the importance of NASA Glenn Research Center which is located right in my district to NASA's Mission administrator n Nelson NASA's space technology Mission directorate funds a lot of significant priorities for NASA many of which The Glenn Research Center is involved in however funding for stmd has been relatively stagnant Over The Last 5 Years the fiscal year 25 budget request proposes ramping up funding for stmd in large part to support the development of fision surface power technology to create a nuclear power system that could operate on the moon administrator Nelson can you please talk about the importance of fision surface power and why we need to invest in it now and not just further down the line and could you please address the importance of Glenn's role within the project uh yes congressman and it was great seeing you in Cleveland and before I forget for Congressman tonko uh our commander going to the Moon Reed Weissman uh on Artemis 2 he is a graduate of rensler poly Technic uh so uh Congressman we got to have more more power on the moon we go to Mars we got to have more power particularly as you get further away from the Sun and you can't rely on all solar power and so uh fishing surface power is uh going to be a necessary element and we're going to start this with the moon so this is part of the reason we go back to the Moon in order to go to Mars uh the 25 requests is 113 uh million now do you want me to get into nuclear electric and nuclear thermal as well or do you want to keep it to fishing surface power I'd like to keep it the fision just because mainly that's what's up there that we're working on okay well I I certainly uh uh respectfully request that you all grant our uh 25 request of 113 million yeah okay we'll take a look at it I understand and and and I get it uh as you had already acknowledge that it's been a tough year uh working with the budget and the last thing that we want to do is to cut down anyone uh but we have to make sure that we're being responsibly and efficient for the country but yes administrator I'm with you a th% uh and thank you for your earlier answer uh additionally as you know NASA Glenn Research Center leads the communication Services project which leverages commercial capabilities to provide Next Generation data relay for NASA satellites and to ensure that there's no data Gap as NASA's older communication satellites continue to age can you speak to the importance of the work performed at Glenn and do we have your commitment possibly that you will provide the resources to the center that needs to complete this project quickly you can't fly in deep space unless you can communicate uh our deep space communication system ran into a problem uh because we need to communicate with all of those science uh uh instruments including the James web Space Telescope bringing back all of that data from deep in space and lo and behold we had to have the capability of communicating to emus one in the test flight of the rocket and we didn't have all of the bandwidth that we wanted so we need to improve that and this is especially essential as we are going further and further out into space right now in low earth orbit we got enough uh Communications we can handle that we need to update it modernize it Etc but deep space is a different thing well if there's anything that we can do to work with you uh especially at Nasa Glenn getting them the resources or just getting the education or familiarizing us with how we can make it more efficient or to get to the next step I would really appreciate it and what makes me just really glad to hear is you know your acknowledgement of how important uh NASA Glenn is not only to our region but to the country and more so the world uh and the capabilities that we have there and I just once again want to thank you for your time it's been uh truly a pleasure to work with all of you and your staff uh and so just thank you again and anything we can do in the future to work together to make sure we can continue to evolve and progress in the right way uh you have a friend in me so thank you administrator I yield back Congressman thank you and Mr chman if I may uh another example of the deep space Communications that we just reestablished with voyager one which is outside of our solar system approaching Interstellar space and it came back to life and lo and behold we got it and where it's located so far away at the speed of light the transmission takes 22 hours and we just reestablished that what if you don't mind my asking Mr administrator what caused that to come back into into Force they again these wizards they do all kinds of things okay and this is a spacecraft it's a very old spacecraft right voer one I think it was launched back in the 70s and uh so it is still Perkin wow okay thank you that's great information to know uh the uh uh gentleman from uh Florida Mr Frost five minutes thank you Mr chairman and good afternoon administrator Nelson with the goals of returning Americans to the moon and aiming for Mars the Artemis program has private Partners in all 50 states and over two dozen in Florida's 10th congressional district which is my district Artemis is a significant contributor to NASA's 4.7 billion economic impact on Central Florida alone and has partnered with the University of Central Florida go nights on several research projects to support lunar landing and living this is why my colleague congressman posie and I are leading a bipartisan letter to the CJs appropriation subcommittee calling for additional Artemis funding to overcome delays and Technical complications Mr administrator with all the challenges of such a complex and cuttingedge program what can NASA do to minimize further delays in the Artemis Mission Cadence well first of all we can have congressmen like you that help us Mak an additional request um understand that we're not going to launch until it's ready and that is because safety is our first when when we put humans on an explosive bomb called a rocket we're going to do everything possible uh to make sure it's as safe as possible realizing that everything is cutting the edge of the envelope that we do uh but especially when humans are in the loop we're going to make it uh that much more safe so we're on schedule next year to have four astronauts Circle the moon and check out the Artemis spacecraft we are under contract with space for September of 26 to have a Lander of which we would go into lunar orbit and they would transfer in and go down to the surface for six days uh obviously if that Lander is not ready we're not going to fly at that time but that is the schedule and that's what the contract calls for thank you and the most recent success um in Partnership of NASA and private space industry um was a soft landing on the moon South Pole um as part of the commercial lunar payload Services Program how does the work of the commercial lunar payload Services Program complement um the work of the Artemis program they are scouts for us just like sending scouts out into the Wilderness uh so for example one of them that is going on intuitive machines at the end of the year uh is going to start digging in the South Pole to see if there is water underneath the surface if there's water and it's in enough abundance then we have Rocket Fuel and overall what what can we as members of Congress do to support the Nationwide economic and scientific impact of NASA's work especially when it comes to the Artemis program and we know that I think any day now China will be sending uh we will do the first mission to bring back um the From The Far Side of the Moon we know this is uh funing these programs are the best uh in the best interest of our national security and the work that we do but what can we as members of Congress do there's the old saying the president proposes and the Congress disposes you're in you're our partner you make it possible for authorizing us to do this stuff and then appropriating the means by which to do it and lastly can you briefly describe some of the scientific highlights of the commercial missions um in terms of the commercial lunar payload Services Program oh yes sir for example uh this last one uh it was an intuitive machine it caught its leg on a rock as it was coming down and it tipped over uh the fact that it tipped over it didn't have its antenna pointing in the right direction to receive uh but we it was still faint enough that we could get enough to know that it was alive there were six NASA experiments on board now this is an incredible story of the chairman of the full committee Hal Rogers in his district as a university Morgan State they have big dishes that can support the commercial program but in this case the clips uh the clips wasn't able to communicate they didn't have enough power uh from their commercial Communications but Morgan State was uniquely positioned that it could also communicate with our government deep space Communications that had the power in order to receive that weak signal and therefore most of the objectives of the mission were successful with a connection there made through Morgan State uh that is a an example of a daring do that suddenly uh the the NASA scientists in the commercial community and a university were able to figure out real time go well thank you so much for your time Mr administrator and uh yield back okay thank you very much and I'd like to recognize gentleman from New York Mr Williams thank you Mr chairman Mr administrator great to see you again and uh sure being on Capitol Hill and testifying in these committees is among your favorite things to do so um we have a HomeTown hero that is in Orbit right now on the International Space Station Dr Janette EPS is uh beloved by her hometown of Syracuse and really has inspired whole generation of young kids in school and uh she is the Talk of the Town and the toast of the town uh she's only been up there now for almost two months can you give us some insight in the importance of her work and uh and her Mission while she's up space Janette is an example of the extraordinary ability of our astronauts their capability in her case she had to wait a long time to fly and yet she is there on orbit for six months performing great science and maintenance of the International Space Station uh sometimes our astronauts have a great disappointment uh the best example that I can think of is deck Slayton he was one of the original Seven uh John Glenn uh Allan Shephard Etc deck was one of them and they discovered a heart murmur and deck was not qualified to fly and yet Dee then took the role as the chief of the astronaut office through all of those years of of Gemini and Apollo for for Dr EPS if I may um can you talk about how her mission is helping us get back to the Moon specifically well everything that we do on low earth orbit is in preparation for us to have the understanding and the preparation so that we can go further and uh that's what we're starting to do uh to go back to the Moon not just for the sake of going to the Moon because we did that a half century ago but we're going back to the Moon to learn in order to go to Mars just like we are doing things in low earth orbit on the International Space Station to go further in addition we're doing serious science on board the International Space Station uh earlier in the Committee hearing I had testified about things going on on cancer research with the jog Kuda and with stem cell research all of that's going on and although I don't know janette's specific science project that she's working on today she will be working on a lot of that science well we look forward to uh having her back but not too soon she's got a lot of work to do while she's there I'd like to spend the last little bit of our time talking about um the the Draco project and the cooperation between NASA and DARPA with uh uh with nuclear energy and propulsion are we still on track for a 2026 test launch how how is the Draco project progressing uh Draco is a uh primarily a DARPA project uh we are working with them on nuclear thermal it's a Joint Nasa DARPA project uh yes it's my understanding that it is uh on schedule uh it is testing out nuclear thermal a propulsion uh that's not the only nuclear propulsion there's also nuclear electric propulsion and hope to get this cranked up and going why because we need to go faster to Mars uh chemical propulsion will get us there in seven or eight months nuclear thermal nuclear electric can get us there faster the reason that's important if we can go fast we don't have to stay on the surface for on the first time second time a year or two to until the planets realign we'd have a chance of getting back so that we could go for a short visit test out what we needed to with all the systems the equipment the spacecraft the Landers Etc uh and get back and uh I I think uh nuclear thermal and nuclear electric is the propulsion of the future great well if we get nuclear propulsion sign me up I'd be happy to go thanks very much I yield back Mr chairman and I want to say also Congressman that the end of the story about deck Slayton is he ended up flying he did uh an experimental medical procedure and it worked on the heart murmur and he was able to fly uh uh years later uh and uh that was a good thing but just think of all the time he had to wait it's a very good thing sure was okay the gentleman from California Mr Mullen five minutes thank you thank you m thank you Minister Nelson for your testimony today as you know the International Space Station is authorized to operate through at least 2030 after which time NASA plans to use commercially developed space stations to support its low earth orbit research and development we're nearly halfway through 2024 leaving just 5 and a half years to ensure that commercial stations are ready and certified uh for D's use I'm particularly concerned about the risk of losing access to low earth orbit for research there are so many important discoveries and innovations that have been developed thanks to uh NASA providing this platform to do it in space so could you just share with uh the committee what the risk might be of a gap uh in sustaining how low earth orbit Rd activity should uh commercial space stations not be ready and then how might a gap affect our preparedness for emis and the development of low earth orbit uh ecosystem in general Congressman we don't intend there to be a gap for the reasons that you just articulated uh it is so important that we keep this continued presence of being able to not only research on fantastic things like pharmaceutical discoveries that benefit us here on the face of the Earth but also in preparation uh for going further to the moon and to Mars for example uh we would be training our astronauts in zerog in low earth orbit on a space station before we would send them to the moon or to Mars and uh so those are just a couple of examples of why it's important and we do not intend for them to be a gap and and thus it's all the more reason that as you all give us Direction uh in the authorization bills and as you partner with your prorations committees in giving us the financial means in which to do this that we continue to have the development of this commercial space stations that will take the place of when we want to deorbit the space station because it's getting old and we want to deorbit it in 2031 thank you for that I appreciate your optimism uh and thank you for your testimony Sir with that I yield back I now recognize Miss Lee for five minutes thank you uh Mr chairman uh last year I had the pleasure of meeting with Deputy Administrator pelm Pam melroy and um was really uh taken by her passion for expanding opportunities in space exploration and stem uh when I chose to serve as a member of the space science and technology committee I envisioned opportunities to work with my colleagues to expand the realm of uh stem education and Workforce Beyond those who have traditionally had access to them I hope the work we do and the funding we are advocating for here today will make uh dreams of so many students from underserved areas um I think of Trayvon Martin uh before he passed who wanted to be an astronaut I I think and hope that the funding that we advocate for here will make some of those dreams uh become a reality around our nation while NASA has no physical infrastructure in my district uh Pennsylvania's 12 the businesses in my district are crucial to the work that the administration does for fiscal year uh 23 my district won over 58 million in contracts across 19 businesses and universities including small and women-owned businesses uh proposed budget cuts to NASA at 22% or more below uh the fiscal year 23 enacted level is an attack on the Brilliant Minds and our Innovative industrious business owners who who fuel American uh leadership in space exploration and technological development NASA has extensive Partnerships in Western Pennsylvania Partnerships that it relies on to carry out its various missions and mandates this current Congress continue to find new innovative ways to Short change or take away from the American people especially the amazing scientist students and workers in my district who who are helping to fuel NASA uh to discoveries and technological developments that will vastly imp improve the human conditions here on Earth um I will continue uh to ensure my region thrives around this space economy administrator uh Nelson I congratulate uh NASA for the two commercial lunar payload Services missions that have flown this year uh these missions have fostered national pride in our nation's space program and produce considerable momentum for the future I know there are more missions on the way this year next including some missions that promise truly groundbreaking science and exploration opportunities some of these missions will also demonstrate important infrastructure uh for improved renewable energy generation such as space-based solar Pro Power can you um just please discuss some of these missions as well as outline your commitment to the lunar Discovery and exploration programs in uh E clips right from Western Pennsylvania Pittsburgh is a company uh that's uh astrobotic I know one uh they are going to have a mission later this year uh with a huge instrument on it called Viper and it is scheduled upon on Landing to drill down in the South Pole underneath uh maybe go down that far and to see if there is water in abundance we we know that there is ice because we've seen that in the crevices of rocks that are in constant Shadow so if there is water then there's Rocket Fuel hydrogen and oxygen uh uh the clips missions that are going uh as I described earlier are like Scouts they go out and they Scout the Wilderness before the humans get there and uh that's exactly what we're doing we will have the South Pole of the Moon characterized by a lot of these commercial Landing missions usually with NASA instruments uh we will have it characterize much more in depth uh at the outset of your remarks you mentioned something about uh your admiration of Pam melroy I want you to know that is very mutual admiration Pam mroy is the real deal she's The Third Woman in the air force to be a test pilot and she is the second woman in NASA to be a space shuttle Commander and so your recognition of talent is certainly right on the mark thank you I appreciate that and while I do have two other questions I'm happy to have uh let you go with that one and I'm uh happy to yield back thank you well Mr administrator thank you uh thank you for your valuable testimony and for the members for their question the record will remain open for 10 days for additional comments and written questions from members and this hearing is adjourned