Billionaire Telegram CEO charged in criminal investigation | Front Burner

[Music] I'm Jonathan mopy in for Jimmy [Music] Pon why is the nation supporting us because we were on the march of Justice we were attacked first by artillery then by helicopters we captured the headquarters building we have not interfered with a work of a single person there are people on the streets unfur in Vagner PMC Flags in the summer of 2023 the Russian warlord yevi progan declared on the messaging app telegram that he and his men were leading a rebellion against the Russian military command millions of people watched him narrate what happened it was a window into the Russia Ukraine war that you couldn't find elsewhere that you could only find on telegram the social media app with more than 900 million users has become Central to day-to-day life in countries like Russia Ukraine and India for many it's a place to get firsthand accounts of war or protest they see it as a democratizing force that Fosters free speech in countries where State censorship and repression are rampant but it's also a Haven for hate speech far-right extremism and criminality because of the app's encryption and lack of content moderation on Saturday telegram's founder Pavel durov was arrested and detained in France as part of an investigation by prosecutors there they're looking into criminal activities on the app ranging from drug trafficking distribution of child sexual exploitation material to promoting terrorism and cyber bullying telegram released a statement following the arrest saying in part it is absurd to claim that a platform or its owner are responsible for abuse of that platform on Wednesday preliminary charges were filed against durov he was released on bail but barred from leaving the country his rest has already lit up a firestorm of debate about Free Speech online and whether Tech leaders are accountable for what happens on their platforms I've got tech journalist Chris stokel Walker with me to talk through all this we'll look at what telegram has come to represent the scrutiny of its founder and what this case might tell us about the limits of free speech [Music] online Chris thanks so much for joining us thanks for having me I'm hoping that we can start with the reaction to the arrest of Pavo durov specifically the anger over it where is that anger coming from I think it's from a couple of things I think it's first the magnitude of the situation and just the fact that a a billionaire executive founder of a huge Ming service with as you said 900 million plus users can effectively be snatched off an airplane when they land in Paris France to be given this wrap list of of sort of alleged offenses that they want to investigate and question him about is itself pretty unprecedented I can't think of a prior predent for this where something similar has happened to someone in the tech industry in such a significant position of power and so I think that's in part why there's been such an opro but then also there is the element of what are the consequences of this and why is the reasoning behind pavl durov's initial arrest and I think it is around that element of free speech around that element of which uh or to what extent the executives in charge of these apps and services that we use day in day out in our lives are directly responsible for the consequences of what the users do on them Russian officials describe durov's arrest as an example of Western hypocrisy the the arrest of pav durov means that there is no freedom of speech that the freedom of speech in Europe is dead and then also underpinning this this element that has been taken on by some of durov's supporters and some of his most outspoken uh FS let's unpack that a little bit and and specifically who are um the kind of usual and unusual suspects who've come to his defense yeah the most obvious and the the sort of loudest on on social media has been Elon Musk and I think that's in part because musk and durov share a kind of commonality both a little bit in terms of their political and their societal Outlook the arrest has sparked outrage from prominent figures including Elon Musk who wrote ashree pavl on X ex-owner Elon Musk who posted the details of durov's arrest sarcastically captioning it check out this ad for the First Amendment along then there are all those who use people who uh both legitimately and for illegitimate purposes might use the app you one of the things that's really interesting about telegram's Genesis and its growth over that time to get to that near billion user base is that it occupies a kind of gray area in terms of how it operates pavl durov both because he is a very much a free speech Advocate and also I think because of his upbringing and his kind of history with Russia this is a person who was born in Russia ended up leaving around about a decade ago ironically over not wanting to give user data to the Russian government from a previous company that he owned um and and Russia has this kind of really odd quazy legal uh almost Marketplace of stolen or secreted away data often from official databases so there is this idea that you can um often do something a little bit nefarious while at the same time having a kind of normal uh well functioning app and I think that that's in part why telegram has become so popular is that um for those who want to use it because it offers encryption and a way to kind of stay away from prying eyes that's great they'll use it for that but also for those who are I suppose wanting to uh kind of deliberately hide their tracks for various reasons this has become a little bit of a safe haven and so they are very up spoken all the consequences of [Music] [Music] this given that reputation for privacy and encryption that you just mentioned it's um been a really popular app also with activists who live in uh under repressive regimes I'm thinking about how widely it was used during the Mass amini protests in Iran these are the videos Iran doesn't want you to see police firing in the streets women cutting their hair burning hijabs in Rage students demonstrations by climate activist groups like Extinction Rebellion what role has telegram played in recent protest movements yeah it's kind of being a drum beat of uh Pro protest of War of conflict and of just I suppose anti-establishment ISM and that's been really interesting and is a really vital part of our Digital Society so you mentioned some of the elements there Extinction Rebellion some of the other protests that are going on around the world simultaneously this was a really vital place for both sides in the Russia Ukraine conflict after Russia invaded the country uh a couple of years ago to both try and get their message out and also to try and uh communicate amongst themselves either in offense in the case of Russia or in defense in the case of Ukraine a way of kind of messaging each other and has become hugely popular as a bit of everyday uh use essentially in in Eastern Europe so you know we have seen over the few days since durov's arrest a kind of Shand that has captured the Public's imagination which is that Telegram is a solely evil app and that is in part because of the the list of allegations that French authorities are making about uh the app in in result of its arrest of durov he's accused of failing to curb the criminal use of his platform and for not cooperating with police investigating the exploitation of children fraud drug trafficking and individuals promoting terrorism but actually what's often overlooked is that this has a a sort of vital role to play in large parts of society Chris I was wondering if you could you know talk a bit more about what sets telegram apart from other social media platforms it is a couple of things number one is the way that it is set up and the ability for its users to encrypt every bit of conversation that they have now in the reporting after durov's arrest telegram has been referred to as an encrypted messaging app it's it's not quite that for the majority of users particularly unless you oped in to encryption I think a lot of people might find themselves caught out thinking that their conversations through telegram were being sent away from prying eyes and actually realizing since durov's arrest they've looked a little bit more closely at their conversations and realize they didn't actually turn on this thing so that is one reason uh why it's been popular and why it's been different H WhatsApp which is is owned by meta the parent company of Facebook Instagram WhatsApp and other services that has encryption by default on all of its messaging but there is a suspicion just by D of the fact that meta is a huge large company based in the US that invariably they would be willing to give up some of their user data if asked by government and that brings us on to the second thing that makes telegram really unique which is whereas many other Tech exec tives have said publicly we will acced to these requests by law enforcement by government by relevant authorities to hand over user data to hand over messages to hand over whatever extent is required in order to meet those demands pavl durov says we won't do that telegram doesn't do that it's not engaged with an awful lot of uh International and Multinational organ ganizations relating to for instance the distribution of images of child abuse the internet watch foundation and Nook Mech the the national Center for missing and exploited children in the United States telegram is neither is involved in neither of those organizations whereas many of the other social media and messaging apps that we have are and that is both a boon for those who believe in being able to say what you want without having any sort of eavesdropping or wiretapping but it's also a risk because as we've learned and as the French Alle ledge here through that silence under that shroud really bad things are [Music] happening I want to talk about durov himself uh he is kind of an interesting backstory and he developed telegram not long before leaving Russia and the Russian Facebook like social media company that that he founded tell us more about who durav is and what he believes yeah born raised in Russia very very precocious very very uh Keen to develop his own technology has been equated to the Russian Mark Zuckerberg in large part because of his role creating VK also known as V contactor which is basically the Russian equivalent of Facebook the Russian opposition started to use VK to organize large protests in Russia where like almost half a million people will would go and protest on the main square or some of the main squares of the city uh we were requested to ban these communities on BK by the government and uh I refused that caused him to run into trouble with the Kremlin when they asked him to hand over user data uh of essentially dissidents against the Russian State back in the sort of early to mid 2010s and durov refused that didn't go too well with the Russian government as well at the end of that year I had to make a difficult decision because I was offered basically a choice between complying to whatever know the leaders of the country told me to do the other one was I could could sell my stake in the company retire resign as the CEO and leave the country um I chose the letter after durov uh left he kind of started to really uh build up Telegram in Earnest as he said had started it just before he essentially put himself into exile for not for refusing to acced to the Russian government's request to hand over data on VK users and then built up telegram with his brother to become huge to kind of do the opposite of those issues that he encountered with the kemin to not hand over data very explicitly so and not just to refuse to do it but to kind of publicly flout doing it as well which is why I think it's managed to gain this audience and it it does have an audience that tends to be anti-establishment that tends to be out of the mainstream and it occupies this odd position out of the mainstream yeah there are very few apps and services that have nearly a billion users that probably the average person wouldn't have been able to name prior to this weekend and yet telegram is one of them and pav durov is super rich right anywhere between 9 billion and 15 billion US doar is his net worth depending on who you ask and yet he's not really a household name in the same way that you'd expect someone of that Worth to have and I think that's in part because of the kind of space in which he's carved out for himself and the space which he's carved out for telegram which is decidedly out of the mainstream and kind of happy to not be recognized all that much you don't go to the US I try not to I can go but you know it's uh too much attention like I described before yeah because at some point if you run something like this you're a player in World politics I mean by Def whether you want to be or not don't you think we definitely don't want to be a player we want to be a neutral platform that is impartial and you know doesn't take any side but you're probably right that there's some role we have to [Music] play he does have a a reputation you know there lots of he posts lots of imag of himself online shirtless um given very few interviews uh he uh claims to have have uh I don't know something like a hundred biological children um you know and and some people have kind of described him as an avatar of of techno optimism how how do you see durov as a representative of this kind of broader for lack of a better term Tech bro movement or or philosophy yeah he's curiously libertarian Silicon Valley Tech bro for being someone who is Nord in Silicon Valley um you a citizen of the United Arab Emirates and France he spends his time prior to his arrest mostly in Dubai but as you say has this really Jet Set really lavish lifestyle um that is kind of separate I suppose from his role as CEO of telegram that is more him showing off in a kind of gy Nuvo reway and it's a it's a demonstration of how rich and Powerful you can be by operating some of these services and how Godlike maybe you can feel as a result of it and we've seen this with a lot of these kind of tech proo CEOs you Mark Zuckerberg does similar stuff he kind of posts himself on sk's started becoming a little bit of a style icon maybe in the same way that durov does we haven't yet seen him as shirtless as durov I admit but there is a kind of God complex that we get with these sort of tech bro CEOs which is they've built these apps and services and companies behind them that span countries and often are bigger than countries when you measure their GDP and that I think gives them maybe an inflated s of self that makes him think as durov seemingly has that the rules aren't really made for [Music] him you mentioned his his Jet Set lifestyle leaving Russia after a conflict with the authorities there spends most of his time in Exile and or least based in Dubai what can you tell us about his current relationship with the Russian government like why was the Kremlin so eager to defend durav and and telegram after the arrest this is the really interesting thing and the kind of I guess multi-billion Dollar Question literally uh around this whole situation in theory paval durov should be Persona nrata to the Russian State you know he ignored their request he stood up to Vladimir Putin and put himself into Exile effectively as a result of that so Russia shouldn't be taking an interest in this and yet we've seen up to and including former president and Russian Prime Minister Dimitri medv saying that although he was kind of a citizen of nowhere he was at first a Russian Citizen and so Russia demands to know what's going on Elon Musk is free Mark stukenberg is free but p durov is now in prison why because he's Russian he's a Russian by nationality and he's Russian by his citizen ship so he has been traced as a person to be a scapegoat for the West as an evil Russian and I think that's interesting and this is where we get into the kind of more conspiratorial gossipy element we know that durov was in Baku aaban just before his arrest we know that Vladimir Putin was there similarly many people have jump to conclusions around that I don't know or think necessarily that there is something to that but we do you know that you know telegram has remained a really vital source of communication for Russia in its invasion of Ukraine and I think that might be actually how two people are putting two and two together and getting five which is this is a former Russia Russian Citizen and you would expect your home country to try and defend you when frankly something's terrible as this happens to you and at the same time telegram is of strategic importance to Russia's military as invades Ukraine and therefore they want to try and make sure that it's preserved and that their secrets aren't necessarily in the hands of the French authorities so that I think is why there is this kind of Suspicion going on and why Russia is so Keen to defend them maybe less so than some of the the out there theories that are being distributed online [Music] you touched on this a bit earlier that you know that that hands-off approach big tent approach that durov advocates for and uh that basically guides telegram's operations you know it's it's led to a lot of criticism uh it's been on the radar of law enforcement for a while now because terrorist groups like Isis have been known to use it for recruiting and organizing what do we know about how widely it's used by extremist groups we know that it is kind of the the tool of choice um it's not necessarily that telegram has set itself up to be a Haven for criminals it's just that how it set itself up to preserve free speech and to keep people security so happens to coincide with a lot of what criminals are looking for and so that is I think why it has become hugely useful and not least also because once information is out on Telegram the moderation There is almost non-existent and so you can share Gore you can share cartoons you can share hate speech as willingly as you can share conversations about the weather and for many people that's a real attraction durav gave this interview back in 2015 and um he said something which I think is so illustrative of the point that you're making Chris he said our right for privacy is more important than our fear of bad things happening like terrorism and you know the the French authorities According to some reporting by Politico apparently their concern or what much motivating the investigation is telegram's alleged unwillingness to help them with into with an investigation into child exploitation on the site um you know has has telegram ever uh complied with uh requests to take down extremist or legal content um they make a big deal of not doing so publicly it's not that we don't care but we think it's important to uh have this platform that is neutral to all voices because we believe that the competition of different ideas can result in progress and a better world for everyone but we do have indications that they have a few typ so there is a suggestion by desel the the German news magazine that they have previously acceded to government requests to hand over some data there in part of a criminal investigation this was back in around about 2022 and also from personal anecdotal experience um I have reasons to believe that they have taken action to remove groups on telegram just this summer uh in the UK where I'm based we saw uh essentially race riots occurring uh far right extremists who were deeply unhappy with their lot in the country took to the streets over the course of about a week and a half earlier this summer and caused havoc and large parts of the communication and organization around those riots was transacted on telegram when I started to look into that group and other journalists started to look into that group we started bombarding telegram's press office with requests for why that group wasn't being taken down and then suddenly a day or so later it disappeared came up after a little while with a different name and people just migrated there but it was an indication at least that maybe telegram does realize sometimes when authorities start to breathe down its neck and also when press intrusion starts to become quite significant and they realize that there is an issue bubbling over here they might be minded to take action but it is interesting so far that they've chosen not to take action on some of the more serious allegations that the frenal authorities are alleging [Music] him this this arrest and investigation into telegram has really kickstarted a a debate about free speech on the internet and and the costs that come with it durov seems to to take an All or Nothing approach he said in a in 2016 interview that it would basically be technologically impossible to create back doors on the app for Western intelligence agencies say to track Isis without also compromising the security of pro-democracy activists in in authoritarian countries or in other words like providing privacy protections for some means providing them for all whether terrorists or activists do you think that's true is there no in between space for for the app I think it's a question that every app is wrestling with and none of them seem to have come up with a good answer which doesn't mean that durov is correct it just perhaps means that those in charge of these apps haven't necessarily put enough thought into it I find it really hard to believe that it's not doable in some shape or form um I think that the challenge here is that platforms don't make money from deciding on these tough moral choices and so far the regulatory winds have actually blown in their favor they're not losing money either from not taking action on this stuff at least not to date that might well change with some of the European actions and the potentials for very very large fines up to a large percentage of the company's entire Global Revenue if they're found to and Fringe these things but I think that the impetus just isn't there I don't think it's necessarily that it's not possible it's just that there's no need to think about it because so far enforcement of these sorts of rules has been relatively toothless Chris thanks so much for taking the time to talk with us today thank you that's all for to today I'm Jonathan mzi thanks for listening to Front Burner I'll talk to you tomorrow [Music]