How The Taliban Are Silencing Women In Afghanistan | Interviews From Riz Khan Show

[Music] hi I'm Riz Khan the sound of music is at the heart of both stories in this week's episode [Music] Women Within and outside Afghanistan have raised their voices in protest at new Taliban rules which include Banning them from singing reciting or even reading aloud in public my guest will tell us what life is like now for women in Afghanistan and how the International Community is responding me and him are like telepathic know what I mean I know my brother better than anybody else when both come together greatness and more than a million music fans scrambled for tickets to hear the British band Oasis reunite on stage for the first time in 15 years so three decades after their Infamous chart battle with Brit pop Rivals blur we'll ask who really won but we start with Afghanistan which recently marked three years under Taliban rule after the US and its Western allies pulled troops out of the country as the afan government's Army crumbled it was a chaotic departure which sparked desperate scenes at cabul airport as thousands of Afghans fled what they feared would be persecution by the Taliban Millions more joined the Exodus abroad while a further 3 million people remained displaced internally most of these are women well despite initial Promises of fair treatment by the Taliban rulers the erosion of women's freedoms has progressed from curbing education to Encompass almost all aspects of their everyday lives the latest decree requires women to be completely covered and accompanied by a male family member when outside the home and their voices must not be heard no reading aloud no reciting poetry and definitely no singing well critical voices in the International Community have accused the Taliban policies as amounting to gender apartate but the Taliban have rebuffed such attacks defending the new rules as necessary to promote virtue and deter Vice and maintaining that the new laws are based on Islamic teaching all of which leaves us with some essential questions what is the best future women can expect within Afghanistan were the Western Powers naive to believe women's rights would be protected by the Taliban or were they resigned to sacrifice those freedoms when they withdrew their forces is the International Community powerless to influence the Taliban stance on women what are Islamic leaders around the world saying about the issue is it arrogance to even try to interfere with the Taliban system of government and what is the likelihood of Afghan men and women uniting to oppose the restrictions well I'll be joined today by two women who know this subject inside out later I'll be speaking with one of the United Nations most influential voices on discrimination against women and girls but first up is shukria barakai a former Afghan embassador and Member of Parliament who was attacked for her views supporting women and forced to flee her country she joins me from London where she's a member of the Afghan women Coalition for change M shukria thank you for joining me now in order to understand how life has changed for women in Afghanistan uh since the return of the talban 3 years ago let's start by talking about the freedoms which existed in the in the two decades between Taliban rule tell me about some of those freedoms and uh how was life for a young woman or girl with hopes and dreams for the future at that time well uh thank you mran life was been dramatically changed in the past three years for women in Afghanistan you may not believe and the from 2001 till 21 the Journey of Afghan women was the achievement was tremendous we had women more than 30% in the government Administration body as a civil servant beside of that women as Ambassador as a governor as a mayor as a minister as advisor as Those whom they are leading very high in key position such as independent human Rights Commission and the government of Afghanistan when I say members of parliament they all were been elected member by the people of Afghanistan we had freedom of expression we had saved equal rights through to the Constitution but where we are today who we are now is just we are not even existing according to the law that have been imposed on us in the past three years even we don't have the right to go to school Beyond year six or grade six I will touch on some of those in a moment but you know you pointed out how prominent the roles were for some of the women in that period without the Taliban controlling the country yourself for example Were A Member of Parliament you were also an ambassador how much did your life change then it's very difficult God forbid I hope no one will taste or be through such a journey that I was being a member of parliament being a prominent journalist and being someone to feel and proud about your country and being Ambassador Diplomat and today dropping label down living in Exile without any identity those women we trained in Afghanistan in the past 20 years for leadership Unfortunately today those project was been shifted we have to teach them how to make the clothes and how to cook how to bake this is the real change which is in the 21st century happening in Afghanistan so let's go through some of those decrees that have come into place uh most recently and and the impact they're having the voice faith and body of women are not anymore our own property so with by those decrees and by such a restriction rules they're really eliminating the self-confident among women so right now women in Afghanistan we are not the second citizen we are not the third citizen we are not a citizen at all we are not counting as a human being you know when when they put on you just because of your gender just because you're women just because you're women you can't do nothing you cannot go out of the house you cannot go to public park you cannot uh uh you must cover entire your face your body even your voice can you imagine this any Islamic country in the Earth are practicing such a things yeah let me ask you then Mr so you as you indicating you're not even supposed to be doing this if you in Afghanistan you would be punished what would be the punishments for such violations and and how are they enforced well surprisingly those punishments needs to be choose by individuals it's depend from the voice of virtual soldiers whom you are facing it could be beating you and lashing you by 100 type of lushes a whips they are putting according to their Islamic rules in a public place they can put you in a jail which is I'm sure you're aware how the situation are uh these unlaw arresting include tortures include rapes include mental and physical uh illness which is women are living at the moment so unfortunately even they don't put a proper kind of punishment every IND idual can take step in action against you including the taxi driver which is will be avoiding to take you because when you don't have a Mal chaperon with you or Maham you know I I I hope to get a chance to speak with the taliban's representatives to get an idea for what the the reasons are but what do you see as the taliban's justification for these measures there's a no justification simply always what they have answer they say this is Accord to rules and princip in Afghan custom and particularly they are highlighting the Sharia law but the Sharia the Islam is not only a special Islam for Afghanistan the prophet Muhammad didn't said a different chapter of Holy Quran to the people of Afghanistan to be divided by the rest of the Muslim world when it comes to covering up completely wise the responsibility put on women as a you know possible temptresses it it basically suggests that men are weak willed doesn't it worse because according to Islam first of all you have to have control on yourself it is self confidence should comes from men but it's not only face now it's also the voice of women so it's not like men are going to be irritated by the physics of women by the face even their voice could bring something to the women according to Taliban interpretation but this is not would you would you believe that it may happen why why why the women of Afghanistan should pay all the cost for such a weak government and men in Afghanistan why we should put ourself in a jail in a cage with the all cover even we were not able to breed oxygen properly just because of sick of the men they don't have control on their sexual desire I think this is the most ridiculous justification they are bringing but I strongly believe they have a fear because when women get ow they will see a different Afghanistan so so M Shak let me ask you then you know in in general apart from the Taliban and their own supporters how many people support what's happening and how much do men speak out in support of their wives their daughters and mothers well there are men activists which is they've been putting in jail why because he was campaigning for girls education there are men which is they are punishing because they are female member family are standing for the rights of women to be educated for their own rights but at the meantime I have to admit that that the men in Afghanistan if they are not standing with us it doesn't mean they are accepting what is the rule of Taliban today because in Afghanistan men also don't have the right having a beer it's a compulsary let me let me ask you as an advocate of women's rights you were attacked for your views describe what you went through oh I've been through so many things in my entire life because I was against and still I'm against worldism I'm against this Fanatics of explanation of Islam in my country I'm against all those kind of occupation which is was been imposed on the people of Afghanistan I lost my two kid during the Civil War in Afghanistan um more than eight times they were attempt suicide including suicide attacked on me but that miraculously I survived so this is not an individual if you see in the social media they label me from uh Head to Toes but I never give up because this is not this is not the situation how we've been through the difficult time the tough time the challenge made us to be ourself it developed it bring me more self-confident when first I was been lushed by the Taliban in front of hundreds people that was 1997 when I stood up I become a different person I become the founder of home school in Afghanistan and I continue my journey till now now of course there's been criticism of the western allies who essentially just left the country in the hands of the Taliban do you feel they were taken in by the Taliban Promises at that time that women would be treated fairly or do you think that they the Western allies simply wanted to S were willing to sacrifice the plight of women due to the the political pressures they felt at home to bring back their Armed Forces after years of fighting obviously with the Taliban and suffering so many casualties well allow me first to declare one thing first exit with dignity was possible for Western lives to leave Afghanistan second they shouldn't impose on us a fake process under name of peace process third they shouldn't sign such a shameful document and Doha with the Taliban on 29 February 2020 so these three things should may not happen if they could avoid these three we will may not be in a meable situation as we are today the people of Afghanistan was feeling we've been badly betrayed by our Western lies but today they are not even themselves accountable although they bring in power the Taliban because the Taliban was fight for 20 years they weren't able to control even one District how come and within a onee time after do agreement and after the agreement between us and Taliban They seized power they took over entire country the power but I also like to say it's also the duty of Afghans when need to wake up we shouldn't sacrifice our life anymore for Western or Eastern values we should stick what is our geography what's our culture what's our religion and we should stand up on our own feet shouldn't let anyone to lead us let me ask you do you expect another Exodus following these new limitations imposed by the Taliban and you feel that there's also the chance that some countries will be less welcoming to Afghan refugees than they were say three years ago well nowadays you heard about the deportation from Germany Afghans was been deported from Germany to cabul Afghanistan without any protocol between the two states on the other hand um the borders um or been um shut down because of the behavior of Taliban and Etc and this is in the history of Afghanistan the past three years 8 million Afghan lives their houses but still there are some door open but for how many years Afghan should be refugees and refuge to other countries and the refugee country the host country Behavior also towards Afghanistan is getting worse and worse day by day so this is the civilian of Afghanistan this the Ordinary People of Afghanistan are paying that price and thinking about how countries receive uh Afghan refugees and so on you all living in the UK and I'm wondering what were your thoughts during the recent riots by rightwing groups against refugees recently it's very sad it's very sad this is I think those whom they come teach us what's human rights what's value of human being and everyone is quite equal in their society there's a freedom of expression freedom of religion those things these are kind of slogan for Western and those kind of soft weapon to be used against other well still I am not complaining still I'm just a residence in the United Kingdom but to be honest there is a discrimination that it's quite loudly shouting it's there's a gender there's a race and their religion discrimination and that kind of rightwing is not only in United Kingdom it's going to be occupied entire Europe and that's a big alert we are standing West in particular against those values that they imposed those ideas on top of everyone and the today War why we are Refugee why Syrian Iraqis Afghans are Refugee because of those war was being imposed by them to our country now while Western leaders have been criticized for failing Afghan women what's been the response of Islamic leaders around the world what would you expect in terms of action from Progressive Muslim countries in terms of uh putting pressure on the Taliban well just recently OIC Islamic country organization host a meeting and they invite the foreign Ministry of Taliban there he was not officially on the picture but he was filling the seats of Afghanistan I haven't seen any in the past PR strong action from the Islamic countries towards Taliban it seems to me Taliban are the type of monsters that everyone don't like to stand against or beat they are the type of monster that Everyone likes to have with them and use against another one and this is I believe that Unity among Muslim globally but particularly among Islamic countries are very essential it's the time that we have to be United for the sake of our own religion for Just Being Human for the order that Allah subhana wa ta'ala order us to do good and to live in peace and to respect and to live with harmony with each other I know the taliban's response to criticism of their policies is to basically demand respect for the way they govern their country which they say is based on Islamic law uh and there is an argument that no other country would welcome such outside interference so don't they have a point in some ways is that outside interference when they are eliminating the half of population from being a citizen is that outside interference which is the Islamic State of Afghanistan which is not not State the Emirates of Taliban don't have any kind of written definition legally whom they are without Constitution how they can inter ruce them themselves to the world how they like to build a relationship with other countries where they are facing the lack of simple contract between State and citizens between them themselves and entire Globe I think it's not a kind of Outsider so let me let me ask you then Mr shukria in your opinion what impact is it having on Afghanistan's economy to have women pretty much removed from the mainstream Workforce the women could contribution in Afghanistan economy was tremendous more than 45% of our economy was with the hands of Afghan women it's such a shame to see even women where they are leading uh um non-governmental organization or companies forcely they have to drop their name and they should put either a mail or their male family members name on top of that as a CEO as a director in when it comes to the um women don't be surprised if Afghanistan will be lacking the medical doctor in the coming years a female doctor will not be anymore there not a female journalist not a female um engineer not the female entrepreneurs so this is this is how the contribution of economy is not only coming by men every society every country every bre needs to fly with two wings with One Wing no one can fly and today the Taliban likes Afghanistan to fly with One Wing it's impossible that's why we can see the backlash that's why we can see the poverty more than 20 million people live below poty line and if you see the situation of Afghan women particularly when the Taliban cut their salary uh just to 5,000 uh AFS per month and that's like 17 5 Us doll per month for those women which is they are in charge of their entire family NAA I means like they're in charge of their family uh rent um house food electricity and everything it's impossible to survive with that you know we've seen in recent days women both within and outside Afghanistan post videos on social media defying the new rules by singing well M Outsiders might be surprised to know that the internet and social media is widespread in Afghanistan why do you think the Taliban permits it well the Taliban already ban few uh famous um social media platform in Afghanistan and the Taliban also arresting those people that they are active in a social media inside of Afghanistan what technique we are using they are sending posted to us and we are sharing uh with with the with the media with the social media outside of Afghanistan just for the sake of their safety but I will not don't be surprised if soon Taliban will put some restriction even to for the internet access and that would be a big disaster because that will damage the online education which is most of the women are taking um we are trying to deliver education online it's not really going to be replaced the uh proper education system but this is how we can do today if the Taliban were go and order that one that would be another disaster and another bad chapter for uh Afghanistan and women in Afghanistan particular how do you see the direction of travel with this issue is there any Prospect for a popular resistance within the country or with boys being taught this new reality in Taliban religious schools should we all just be resigned to a generation of women being increasingly subjugated by Afghanistan or in Afghanistan the resistance of the people of Afghanistan you will may see very soon because that frustration will not going to be acceptable by anyone in Afghanistan the people of Afghanistan they believe the International Community because they say Taliban change they are good boys they will not do bad things had they done on the past but when they seized power they should they are even worse than before but I think now people are realizing now the people are standing against them now they are losing their own commanders now you can see division among the Taliban leadership one saying School needs to be open another saying know so these kind of things are showing somehow a type of um different messages from the such a totalitar uh regime where they speak in one voice but now those different voices are kind of also resistant groups shaping even inside of the Taliban yes perhaps cracks in the system now you've touched on it on a number of factors but what do you say is the greatest loss to the country that's posed by the treatment of women in Afghanistan this is a great L we lost Afghanistan we lost our achievement we lost who we were we lost our dignity we lost our contribution in our society with the with this um um with his entire work it's it's not you know the lost the the change of government from the Republic to the Taliban for some people is just change of faces but it was a great loss of Afghanistan the history The Pride the position the hopes the dreams or Generations so listen shukria Barak I do hope to have a chance to chat with you again thank you very much for being on the show thank you my next guest is Dorothy Estrada tank as chair of the United Nations working group on discrimination against women and girls she was co-author of a un report which depicted the taliban's policies as gender apartate and she wants them to be recognized as crimes against humanity Dorothy thank you very much for joining me now you've been following the policies of the Taliban for some time now and you've visited uh women in Afghanistan before we get to the latest rounds of restrictions that they face let me let me ask you what shocked you most about the women's situation and their stories it was a shocking situation definitely I think that's a correct way to put it and probably the most impressive aspect for me was the resilience of the woman so of course the Temptation and the reality is to focus on the violations that's an important dimension of our work as human rights special procedures to bring to public attention the lived experiences of women and girls in Afghanistan and the way that the repressive policies of the Taliban deao authorities have affected their everyday lives restrictions to freedom of expression freedom of movement right to education right to health right to work and just really blatant violations to their right to equality and non-discrimination that being said the fact that women are still resisting is was probably the most impressive for me do you see this as a kind of steady um continuation of the taliban's policies in restricting women's rights or does this seem to be a major escalation to you I think it's a continuation uh to some extent not only of the policies that the def facto authorities have implemented since August of 2021 but even uh sad tragic repetition of some of the policies from the first time that they were in power from 1996 to 2001 so we do see a Continuum a line of uh uh followup of these uh policies that uh are a manifestation of something that is symptomatic it seems in the Taliban ideology in the sense of uh instrumentalizing their interpretation of religion and their idea of society the ideal Society that leaves out marginalizes and uh commits inhumane acts towards uh women and girls but at the same time we see an escalation uh because we see this turn into uh law so we see uh somewhat um Graver aspect now because it's institutionalizing these forms of discrimination and in and oppression to what uh some of us as as human rights special procedures and especially the movements of Civil Society of women have termed as gender aparte this uh institutionalized framed within law or what purports to be a valid law that discriminates and that uh institutionalizes this system of segregation so in that sense we think it's also an escalation what do you what do you think is their ultimate goal and their ultimate view on where women should fit in in society I mean do you see this uh as something just the next stage of more restrictions or do you think ultimately they're kind of reaching their goal already R you know that's a very good question I think that's what all of us are asking ourselves because uh when you think that it can't become worse it is becoming uh worse so uh we are not really sure what is the end game what would be the final point or the the the light of the end of the tunnel in their idea of the society that they would want to construct but from human rights perspective and the human rights obligations that Afghanistan as a state has and has um has has committed to H to be obliged by and to fulfill we see that these are violations and that I mean in any view of society how do you expect this to be sustainable in the middle and long term when you're leaving out half of your population from education from uh work from future development as a woman uh obstetrician I got ecologist told us in a hospital in in Cabell if uh women are not going to University so you are not having women that will become medical doctors and women and girls can't be uh attended by male doctors at least for certain issues of their health uh what how how are women and girls going to survive so this is in a way condemning them to a slow femicide uh and to getting heill out of preventable diseases so uh it's it's really unclear what what is it actually that they are trying to achieve with these measures as well as the term you use femicide your group uh in its study concluded that what the Taliban is doing their policies amount to gender apartate as you've mentioned let's look into this term a bit more deeply and what it means and and why the term is so important yes I mean if we look at two major legal sources the 1973b convention on the suppression of a parite uh obviously thought of originally to combat racial aparte in South Africa and other parts of southern Africa if we look at that legal source and we look at the wrong statute of the international criminal court a more recent and modern uh legal source that includes AAR heide racial apar heide as a crime against humanity and we bring those sources together and look at it through the lens of um human rights of women and girls and through a gender perspective we see that if we were to substitute race for gender in those legal definitions that are focused on inhumane acts committed against a a group with the objective of maintaining a certain regime in power we see that those elements each one of the legal elements of these legal sources are present in this case not against One race but against uh women and girls and also other gender minorities other sexual and gender minori ities uh but mainly uh directed to women and girls because of this idea of society so we are saying why not apply the same International reaction the same indignation and the same sense of Injustice that uh the International Community applied when this was done to a certain racial gr or for racial motivations in this case the case of Afghanistan is also a manifestation of what we have called the the Global Gender backlash yes the most evident and grave case is Afghanistan but we find others this is not only an isolated Geographic uh incident or only of this uh political group this is also happening obviously to a lesser degree in other parts of the world there's a real resistance to the rights of women and girls all right well Dorothy I want to stick with specifically what's happening in Afghanistan now because of course the world's eyes have turned on to what the Taliban is doing and I wonder when you use terms like femicide or gender apartate whether the Taliban even care about such labels I mean their perspective as they've stated it is that this is essentially interference by outside governments and that it's something that wouldn't be tolerated by Western governments if other people you know were trying to tell them what to do I mean do they have a point I think the idea of uh constructing nationally on the basis of national sovereignty a country's own uh identity policies and law if said like that in a general manner is obviously a legitimate and a valid objective of any country but what we have to be very clear about is that uh the human rights of women and girls are not a western liberal agenda they are part of the universal system of human rights that has been constructed among others by Afghan movements and Civil Society requests themselves so this is not an imposition from the outside this stems from obligations of Afghanistan itself but also from what the Afghan women are they themselves fighting for they identify with their human rights of of of Education of work as one um girl girl young woman 19-year-old uh woman told us I want to study two years ago I was studying High School I wanted to go to university my dream is to go to university at at please I will go with my brother I will do anything that is necessary I will wear proper hijab but I want to study I want to have an education and we are condeming girls and women to to be at home with with no hope and no foreseeable change in the future so under any uh sense of justice of equality of human dignity regardless of religious or cultural perspectives there is a common denominator of what we are fighting for here was the West uh the Western allies within naeve to believe the Taliban would give women Freedom or did they pull out uh knowing that perhaps there was some risk of these freedoms being curtailed by the taliban's policies uh that's a difficult question that probably would be best suited for those actors themselves if they actually had elements to foresee that this could happen one could say we had seen the Taliban from 96 to 2001 so there were those elements that were present even in the first months of this uh term of the Taliban deao authorities when they said we will reopen schools this will happen this is just a temporary measure there was still a window of time where the International Community and those allies uh gave them the chance to do but what is clear as of now three years later and with this last step of the so-called morality law is that they are not uh stepping back and that this is even becoming deeper and stronger what leverage do you think the International Community actually has over the Taliban now Dorothy you know I think it's a matter of political will and political decision uh it was done before to to end a part hide it was a long struggle but there came a point when the general assembly when uh the International Community when several States stood up to this and placed a limit so this is also a test now to the multilateral system to the International Community how far uh are countries willing to go or to accept or to turn a blind eye to this so this is not only a matter of responsibility of the Taliban deao authorities as the governing power uh in Afghanistan but uh the rest of countries not only neighboring countries but really all of countries so if it was possible then why is it not possible now with a stronger feminist uh movement and transnational alliances of women that didn't exist 20 years ago or at least not in such a strong and interconnected manner the issue though is that threatening to cut humanitarian needid basically just affects the the most needy doesn't it yes that's true although that's not the only Avenue possible right that is that is one one uh issue that has been on the table as a form of uh possible leverage but that's not the only uh element that the International Community has there's all types of uh economic engagement International contracts uh thinking of of development of infrastructure things that one would presume and from what we hear from actors there the the def facto authorities are interested in so not use that for a positive and engagement what we have called a principal pragmatism or a principal engagement so it's not a matter of isolating them completely but of putting certain conditionalities for example in the Doha process in the international meetings have women how can you have a meeting where you're going to speak about human rights and you don't have women at the table that's not only a responsibility of the Taliban what about all the countries that committed to Security Council resolution 1325 in the year 2000 to have women present so this is unacceptable that we don't have women sitting at the table so there's many things you could do and that would change the Dynamics of the conversation so these are two elements for instance these these economic engagements and the political actors that are intervening in the discussions of the future of Afghanistan with the Afghan people and the Afghan women those are two elements that we don't see there and that the International Community could do and place certain time time uh limited Milestones with a certain calendar reopening schools H allowing for work the there's there's so many things you could you could do with the political will and saying if you want to be a part of the International Community you have to you have to comply with these minimums you did say that having uh no women at the table at the Doha discussions was obviously not the right way to go about it but the UN was criticized for uh you know going to Doha to to engage um when they had agreed not to have women's issues on the table in the first place on the agenda and not having any representatives from Afghan Civil Society so looking back on that was that a regime was that a mistake that perhaps gave more credibility to the Taliban regime possibly yes I mean I think the the the happenings that we see since then and that we have seen in these uh last two weeks with the morality law in a way testified to the fact that what we were asking as uh human rights special procedures of bringing what the woman to the table what we have said since the beginning uh is something that that that would have changed the Dynamics and what what has the International Community got in exchange for not having them at the table has there been any step back in those uh regressive policies has there been any lightening of these harsh measures against women and girls no not only that but we see what you mentioned at the beginning the escal ation so it's not that we're getting anything uh in return in a way uh and so it's a measure that even from a political standpoint is is clearly ineffective so our role as human rights special procedures is to signal that as independent experts we stand for the UN values for UN Human Rights instruments but in our mandate is also the ability to be critical or to challenge those decisions from the political bodies of the UN itself now the talibans argument is that they're imposing Islamic law and the women activists from Afghanistan with whom I've spoken have always said well look this is just their interpretation of the Islamic law and that other Muslim countries don't uh impose it the same way and they have totally different rights and open you know lifestyles in other Islamic countries how much do you get to engage with Islamic leaders in trying to put pressure on the the Taliban because perhaps with that commonality of religion there is a little bit more leverage MH yes even being in Afghanistan we actually met with religious Scholars so they weren't Ama or the religious leaders of community but they were Scholars with great experience and understanding of Islamic law and they were saying this is not the correct interpretation this is this is not the way that uh we see a society based on on Islam so I think there there's a potential that has to be explored more um not necessarily or not only by un uh human rights special procedure but a general recommendation is to engage Community leaders uh including religious uh leaders in the understanding of how a society could look like what would the picture look like with a different interpretation of Islam and there we have also experiences from feminism you have Civil Society organizations of feminist and H leaders and women themselves who subscribe to to Islamic law who are Muslim women who are uh fighting for a different understanding that they say is an interpretation that is more holistic that is more complete that is really based on the True Values that Islam stands for so we've seen this H as possible not only from the perspective of government policies in other countries with uh Muslim majorities but also from the perspective of how Civil Society are proposing reinterpretation of religion and not only in Islamic religion I must say this is also done in other uh monotheistic religions so it's not a a unique movement and we have to listen more to these actors and leaders and yet the Taliban recently described the UN as an opponent and does that mean that the un's relationship with the Taliban has essentially broken down and um if that's the case what's your best strategy now then to help the women of Afghanistan on the one hand to keep engaging with the women themselves we know that many of them are in Exile and unfortunately it's hard but not impossible to keep up the relationship with the women in Afghanistan but so the first point is to keep engaging with the women and what they want and with what they are asking for listening to the women placing them front and center be have they have a clear idea of what measures should be taken and they they strategize together and to to keep those channels of communication open so that's in the first place and in the second place I think the neighboring countries and International Community in general also has a role to play in placing pressure positive pressure in a way to engage in a different manner with the Taliban and to make clear what the minimum requirements are for being part of the International Community which is something that they that they want one would think right if not they wouldn't be bothered in a way by certain terms such as aart heide or femicide because they they affirm that this is not what is really happening so there is there is an attempt to try to to dress this with certain legitimacy right and to place it in legal in a legal form so it's it's a matter of of keeping the dialogue open but with the woman uh at the center Dorothy how inspired Have You Been by videos posted on social media of Afghan women singing in defiance of these new rules very I mean I think what uh women in Afghanistan are doing uh inspires us all I think it's a source of admiration of courage and example to us all and really in our work as un working group on discrimination against women and girls we see these uh testimonies of Bravery of dedication of responsibility with future Generations because some of these women may know or have the intuition that they are not going to see the changes themselves but they hope for a better Afghanistan and in general a better world for other women and girls so when they are not giving up hope we can't do it either you it's interesting that the taliban's laws also apply to men and men are for example now required to have beards uh and I wonder what that does the prospect of a sense of unity of men coming together to to be able to support their mothers daughters wives within Afghanistan to create some kind of resistance from within that's a very interesting question and one would hope that there's that there is uh some fertile ground there to work with as well um probably one of the aspects that the woman themselves has told us that could have been worked on more in the previous 20 years to uh 2021 is actually constructing new masculinities which is which is a challenge in many parts of the world non-toxic masculinities uh the idea and the and the focus on equality as an issue that is important for the whole of society not only for women and girls so yes there's there's that possibility with with men coming together in solidarity with uh their their mothers sisters daughters and we saw this we saw this in Afghanistan as well even even the men who drove them to meet with us and this was a a a situation that may have caused them risk not only to the women but to those who are who are aiding them so we do see that but at the same time there's the risk that these type of policies that come from the top down and that say that this is the society you have to build even if you don't agree and this is also in this last law with the prohibitions for example to associate with non Islamic people so there's also a harm to religious minorities and so on there's the risk that these top- down policies then reinforce the patriarchy because there's also the allowance the permission in the law for civilians to apply the law as well so it's private actors in a way taking on that public uh policy to to apply these uh discriminatory measures against women and girls so the is that that that that possibility that that we we focus on in the first hand then becomes diluted with the fact that that men themselves may be afraid and they may and they may be reinforced in already patriarchal structures and and modes of behavior and patterns that then now they feel they feel empowered with this regime now looking a bit broader Dorothy your your work spans obviously not just the work in Afghanistan but across the world and you've touched on that um you're not dealing with just numbers you know you're dealing with lives with stories and I wonder if there are any particular stories uh of what the the kind of things you've heard that that may shock you inspire you that stick with you and perhaps motivate you one was the young woman I mentioned uh with her dream to go to university and the resilience and and the sacrifice that she was ready to make in order to not lose her University education another was was a professor who was teaching in a clandestine manner who was organizing students uh she was a professor of psychology at the University organizing students uh to to to receive her classes uh at home or in in in any place that they would find themselves uh even um putting on a ring and and and uh pretending to be married so that if they stopped her in the street and she would say you know my my husband is ill right now or because she was single right and there's in a way it's a society that that leaves leaves out or or or prohibits in a way any any form of Engagement uh by single woman so the risk that they they were ready to take that she was ready to take for her students uh it was her it was her her her reason of of living in a way her her classes and her students and and really also the the the Civil Society leader leaders and and the mothers that were ready to again do different sacrifices for online uh classes and so on I think the the the part of education and then then I remember there was one meeting we had and through video this wasn't in person in a clandestine school and when they asked the the the children the girls when they asked them that what they wanted to be and they said a medical doctor I want to be an astronaut I want to be a lawyer um I mean and and to think of for those of us who who have daughters and sons but especially daughters the way that that this regime is depriving them of that of the their rights today but of their future uh I think is is shocking to use the word uh that you mentioned at the beginning but inspiring at the same time but Dorothy as a final thought you know um when you look at the situation uh of the way women are treated in different parts of the world we've got Mexico has now got its first female president the US might actually have a a female president depending on how the election goes and there's a there's a very different situation around the world where in some places women are really doing well but of course even though South Asia's had so many women leaders Afghanistan now is going totally the other way uh in the way it's treating us women are you optimistic or pessimistic about the future for women across the globe uh that that question uh goes close to my heart especially because I'm from Mexico uh so actually the fact that the first female president is going to start her term on uh next October 1 is a source of Hope for many um at the same time in terms of the possibilities of women worldwide I think there's there's two points to be made so one is that it's a positive uh step that there are women taking uh these positions of power and Leadership uh at the same time uh as women's movements and human rights and social justice and environmentalist movements more generally we have to be wary of uh these leaders to actually comply with human rights of women and girls right we know that uh the fact of having woman in power is not a guarantee for more feminist or more open or more transparent uh measures so we have to keep women leaders as well as any leader accountable and we have tools to do that and we have legal tools that we didn't have 20 years ago so we have I had mentioned the wrong statute of the ICC we have the whole uh plethora of Human Rights instruments and we have the values that are behind that I mean these instruments weren't built by themselves there's a whole range of Civil Society movements and also committed governments that have constructed these instruments so in looking at the future of women I think we have to keep on pushing for women in position of powers not only political power but also economic power but we have to look at the policies and the measures as well what are we doing for social justice tax Justice the gap between the rich and the poor that we also know has a gendered pH that affects women and girls and poerty in particular and disproportionate ways uh the environment and the whole uh fight of uh climate change women leaders that are young and we have to privilege them and their voices so I think we have to keep an eye on on both things right pushing for the leadership and pushing for the feminist measures well Dorothy Estrada tank thanks so much for joining us on the show thank you so much is me and him are like telepathic you know what I mean I know my brother better than anybody else when both come together greatness the announcement that the British rock band Oasis is reuniting for a new tour 15 years after Brothers Liam and no Gallagher's acrimonia split has caused a sensation in the UK it's been the most talked about story for a week with more than a million people people scrambling for tickets to next year's gigs and tickets are changing hands for as much as £10,000 over $113,000 on the resale Market will hits such as wonder wall Champagne Supernova and Don't Look Back in Anger will be performed at the UK's biggest Arenas with the tour then expected to go Global the announcement also reignited memories of one of the most explosive musical feuds in the industry's history when the so-call Battle of Brit pop divided the country between fans of Oasis and blur in a race for superiority ity in the music charts in the 30 years since there have been plenty of musical feuds and fallouts such as the tensions between hip-hop Giants Drake and Kendrick Lamar or Canya West and Taylor Swift but at that time blur versus Oasis became the biggest rock rivalry since the Beatles versus The Rolling Stones and it's never really disappeared a new stage play about the feud called the battle is heading to London's West End next year so who won the Battle of the Brit pop bands let's revisit the debate with a pair of Music experts to look back at the anger and abuse that divided the country by geography class and culture well I'm joined Now by British broadcaster and music journalist Adrien Goldberg and John Rob editor of the music publication louder than War whose recent interview with nol Gallagher gave fans New Hope of a reunion between these strange brothers so so John I'm going to start with you and just like to revisit that Infamous feud between Oasis and blur uh but let's start with the news of Oasis which has caused quite a sensation among music fans in the UK and around the world tell me how how you got that exclusive interview with nol well the interview I did with no was actually if they definitely may be Al but they're going to uh what it came out last week it was a release of it they had two attempts to record it initially and the one you actually get to hear is the third attempt recording so n remix the first two attempts and N is going to do one interview for the album he asked me to do the interview so uh it was it was filmed for them you know for NOS people Wast people wherever it was at the time time this is done months ago so there's no sign on the band reforming now when to think about it I don't think they actually reformed at the point time doing the interview and what I was saying before the interview you know I wanted obviously they wanted me talking about the arand in the interview but I didn't really want the know the Liam thing because kind of knowing them over the years I know that there is an intense R they haven't spoken January in 15 years but I think if that's the only story that becomes out of the whole R thing you're kind of missing out a lot of other the stuff I said wouldn't it be nice if you actually talked about the positive side of it and he did he was very nice about Liam when the interview got shown a week ago which now seems like a year ago people go oh God this is a very different no he's biging up Liam um and he's bigging up the bands is there something going on and 48 hours later something did go on so your chat may have had some some Sway in the whole thing yeah I like to think that yeah it's me personally reform the bands I mean I no no was a very smart operator so I think U he would have known the right time do this you know I think he picked exactly the right time to do this didn't he I mean it's weird now we're in a position where the bound actually seems bigger than he were in 996 this amount of tickets they're selling for these live shows or whatever cost they are for tickets is higher than when they did in edor uh 30 30 years ago which seems crazy well let me bring in Adrian and Adrian why why is this such a big deal for music fans in the UK and around the world I think you've got the phenomenon of nostalgia people who remember Oasis from the first time round in the 90s and of course because the band split up those people haven't had the opportunity to see the band for many many years but also I think the band's musical influence has filtered down to their children and I know that Oasis memes are massive on Tik Tock at the moment somebody getting a N Gallagher a Liam Gallagher haircut on Tik Tok a British model has had 2.4 million views on Instagram searches for Oasis style and this is even before the reunion work quite a thing so I think you've got the combination of nostalgia from parents who want to relive their youth but also their children who got into the music you know clearly there's an enduring quality about the music of Oasis that their kids have bought into and a very particular British fashion style as well well Adrian there's also the fact that the parents would know the about the feud between two of the most successful British bands in the 90s uh there was of course that rivalry between Oasis and blur so how do that kind of come into the mix Adrian truthfully these days that's really gone I think it was a very much of its moment in the mid90s very much beloved of the the tabloids you know who doesn't love a a band War they were probably harking back to a time when John and I were scarcely born to a Beat versus Stones Feud so I think the people who ran the tabloids understood that there might be mileage and clearly there was some degree of animosity between the bands but ultimately now I think all these years on I think truthfully both bands stand in their own right both were significant bands of the 90s and both still have a a vital musical influence today so I don't think truthfully that Feud is selling tickets in 2024 well I was going to ask John then how you know you know them You' been close to these guys how is the difference between the two bands well how did that difference fuel the the Rivalry and how did the fans embrace it at that time I think it's was quite interesting because I think something outside the UK be quite difficult to understand but it was all about class geographies Northeast South where class going perceived middle class um oases kind of initially thought blur would trying to jump on their bandwagon and blur probably thought away trying and jump on their bandwagon we know gag when interview about about 20 years ago he said that the music media and the music business had the stage set for Brit pop and blur going to be the main band in it then we turned up and they never forgave us and I think even that that part actually still gets played out to this day because the I think the you see a lot of people in the uh UK music media not that comfortable the RIS even like 30 years later but I think I think it was a BL it was blur's manager he he was a brilliant um operator who actually worked in the same music paper as me and Adrian did at the time um who actually sort of created the the initial blur the Oasis thing but then he just ran away because like Angel was saying it's a great story Everyone likes a ban rivalry you know Beetle Stones Clash pistols you know T-Rex Bowie some are more serious than others but it it it creates it creates all these little sort of debates around it you know which side you on are you you know are you and it's it's all kind of showes in a way as well in it's like a Showbiz idea of the the class system in the UK and which which is which is still on and I think all our culture is Riven with those kind of Divisions and those kind of ideas but John you know knowing your friendship with the gagers is it fair to say that blur were a little more magnanimous while the Gallagher brothers were merciless in their put Downs that ranged from like hilarious typically British onliners to actually some quite shocking comments yeah I mean some of the stuff said wasn't that great was it but I think both sides uh I don't I don't think there was much uh much evidence of anybody that magnanimous at the peak of it think they're both uh pressing each other's buttons you know I think I think obviously he was there was a a fun side to his great G of toid headlines but think a serious side to it as well but after a few years it like like aent was saying it stopped you know no's made records with with with Dame and I'm there there's a mutual respect between most of them nowadays isn't there and you know Adrian John was saying about how everyone loves a bit of rivalry between various stars and bands and so on how much do you believe the Rivalry was was genuine how much was actually blown up to the benefit of both bands well I think at the time it it was genuine as you say there was some quite bitter comments going to and fro and as John suggests it started off maybe as one of those little bits of hype that the music papers of which Sean and I were part were happy to seiz on but then it became a a whole tabloid rivalry and every comment was seized on every comment was blown up so I think there was a there was a real thing behind it but I really do think that was then and this is now and I don't think it's particularly Germain to the music Bing public in in 2024 and you also have to look you know if you're thinking about Oasis this is a band who went worldwide they had three Platinum selling albums in the United States they had MTV Europe Awards I think they won four MTV Europe Awards so this was something played out in the UK press but I don't think Oasis would have had that Global success I think they would have had that in any event I don't think they would have had it if they didn't have great songs that were able to endure I just kind of think that moment's gone you know right well I was going to say though just for those who weren't born at that time John perhaps things came to a head during the race for number one in 1995 to get that top single tell me about that and the effect it had on the country at the time well I think that was a peak of it really one of the great bit bit pop Wars you know I think it was think Alam MC said that when he like we lost the battle but we actually won the war cuz the Oasis arum came out they didn't get the one single but their album comes out is one of the best in the albums ever in the UK I think it's in the end if you look at the beat Stones thing I always think this about that you know the stones were the biggest band in the 60s but the beat was the biggest phenoman in the 60s you know you could only get to certain level as a band you're not going to get any bigger but some bands go beyond that into the stratosphere and I think the UK especially that's what oases did they became a band that everybody had an opinion on and blur were just a really big band and that's that was kind of result what came out of the Brit pop Wars yeah you described what happened there but let me ask you John starting with you and maybe get Adrian's perspective afterwards numbers apart I mean maybe an unfair question but who do you think made the better music and which you stood the test of time I think they're both really good I think they both do really different functions I mean blur fantastically inventive but then of course Dam alurn a brilliant mpers well I don't think anybody's you know people always have this idea their way since everything they stole is off the Beatles but knowing no Giga well I know he likes a lot of music Way Beyond the be he does just have the beat with red and blue records you know he's he's he's really into Post Punk he's really to obscure underground bounds you know there's a lot of stuff in that melting part there's a few Nicks in there but every Band Nick spits and stuff off other people anyway and uh so so I think D there was there was a with Blair there was a come out an Artful inventiveness there music but it takes an equal amount of skill to write a song that 880,000 people in the field can completely connect with and it's those kind of every man songs are difficult to write otherwise there'd be hundreds and hundreds of pounds doing them I think it's there so I think there there's equal but very different talents that play here well Adrian what's your take on that and which is stood well no listen I'm sad to agree with John really I think if you from a kind of the traditional music critic's point of view I think blur are probably seen as the more artistic band in is the more creative I think Damon Alban is the individual of all of the people involved in this particular discussion who has kind of continued to push a boundaries musically but if I go for a an evening out in the pubs and clubs of the West Midlands which is home to neither Oasis or blur and they might have a a guitarist there a singer songwriter just entertaining people in the pub what will we hear we won't hear a blur song we will hear in all probability wonder wall or another song by Oasis and they have got this brilliant ability to write songs that connect with people and connect with people over the decades and that that is not something to be in any way sneered at or dismissed that's a great talent well John you'd indicated that Noland blurs Dam Alban have long since buried the hatchet and they've even collaborated musically now was it is it possibly the bigger Feud was between the gallager brothers in Oasis Liam and null or do you think that their relationship has been truly repaired or perhaps the prospect of a multi-million dollar payday simply papered over the cracks what do you think John well I think there's probably both factors are play but I think thing is if it's your brother and you fall out them you're still join together somehow aren't you still so some point you're gonna have to like sort the situation out to thing you know there's a genuine emotional thing there you want to sort it out don't you so maybe that's what happened maybe they have and maybe you know what there's always this mistake that bands make you know especially younger bands it's your gang against the world but when you're an older band maybe you don't get on but but when you're on stage it's so magical it sounds so brilliant there a certain chemistry that you could put all not getting on those people I mean the r Stones worked out way operating despite 10 years and all that J Rich getting on in the end they have got on they've actually worked it's got to the other side of that situation so all that's in there I think I think of course the money is a prime factor or a big factor in reforming but there's still a thing that when you're on stage or in a rehearsal room and you're both there together there's something truly magical happens you know that chemistry that people talk about I think it's worth putting up with all the other stuff to get to that situation well with the the you know world we live in today streaming has created a totally different environment for bands um and here's one for both of you maybe starting with with you Adrian today on Spotify blur has 11 million monthly listeners and their most popular song uh T single sorry song two is closing in on a billion streams while Oasis has more than 28 million monthly lists and their song wonder wall has racked up an incredible two billion streams so with both bands back on stage performing again do you expect that that new generation will discover them and they'll continue uh performing even though it was the the parents music for these youngsters and they know nothing about the the past feuds perhaps yeah I think so I think one of the great things about streaming services and videos services like YouTube is that although sadly artists perhaps don't get their Fair reward from them the upside is that young people can access music from previous generations in a way that John and I would have found really difficult When We Were Young music critics starting out so my kids can at the push of a button listen to Oasis and listen to blur and listen to a whole range of other bands I was at a a concert last night watching a fantastic Scottish band called Bell and Bastian who've been knocking around for 27 years but my kids who were considerably younger than me of course were into them and I think this kind of division and this tribalism around music I wouldn't say it's disappeared altto together but I think it is a very different music cult you now where you can just say to somebody have a listen to that and whether it was recorded in 1960 70 80 90 or last week it's just there at the push of a button so I think young people will continue to discover blur they'll continue to discover Oasis that's brilliant John Robie your thoughts on that yeah see I think it's true I think all music is now contemporary there's no sense of it being um from what like I remember like the Beatles when I was going pul The Beatles seemed like they from the Victorian times whereas that now it's all Level Playing it's all there at once I think oases have resonated through the generations I mean even when they do the solo gigs if you go to Le Gallagher solo gig most of the crowd are about 16 years old I think also that's partially to do with his Twitter presence because I think in a way he's like Britain's oldest teenager you know he talks like a teenager which actually it's not critique really it's quite a cool thing to do is it he's funny and he has no filter and then 16 17 year old is completely you know like he's he's s there and people put something up he put a funny comment underneath you know so I think people like that as well they fit into the Modern Age they yes on certain levels there is a retrospective thing about them but another weird level they feel very contempor as well I can tell you one of the great satisfactions I have with my 18-year-old daughter is that if a song comes up on the radio and it's a remake I can turn around and say I heard the original when it first came out John Rob Adrian Goldberg thank you so much for joining me thank you cheers all the best I'll leave you with one final thought I recently featured on this show an American political scientist Professor Alan nickman who has a unique and very successful system using 13 keys to predict the outcome of the US Presidential races well this week he's revealing his latest prediction which will consider whether he believes America's first female vice president Kamala Harris will become its first woman president it comes at a time when the public sound of women's voices in Afghanistan may be consigned to history there's an ancient British saying used to reprimand boisterous youngsters that children should be seen but not heard in Afghanistan today it seems the absence of women's voices and faces would deny them even that freedom I'm RIS Khan for me and the team thanks for watching we'll see you soon [Music]