Episode 9:Baroness Tanni Grey-Thompson on Disability Advocacy, Determination & Assisted Dying Debate

[Music] this episode of nothing but a number I'm delighted to be joined by baroness Tanny gray Thompson of eaglescliffe uh one of Britain's greatest par Olympic athletes Tanny has a master I think it is it 11 Gold four silver and a bronze medal over 16 years and five par Olympics um in 2005 she became Dame Tanny gry Thompson and in 2010 was created a life peer um Tanny welcome um it's great to have you can we start in of the beginning of your journey um because I know kind of determination is is the key to H how you got to be such a great par Olympic um athlete but um from the start I believe your your parents were were kind of keen that you uh wouldn't be disadvantage by um your your disability and you know that that you were part of the mainstream from the start yeah I I think sort of some of my parents early experience so you know my parents were told when I was born if I've been born two years earlier I've been taken away not fed and allowed to die um and that had a big impact on them and um it was kind of interesting so you know they talked about inclusion before people even thought of the word and I think both my parents were very keen on education as a way of of helping me find my own path so you know my parents bought the system to get me into mainstream education because back then education was segregated and there was no education for disabled children I mean when I was due to go to high school um we went to the school with the education Authority wanted me to go to and kids at 15 were playing with son and water and my my dad was like that is not not happening you know and so um you know a lot of it early on about being active was about just being physically strong enough to push my own chair and you know as much later um my you know my parents sort of said to me that you know it was about leading an independent life I mean basically my my dad said to me I was quite an annoying child and they just didn't want me living at home forever um but there were kind of lots of these slighting moments where I remember I was 11 and I did some horse riding and had the chance to go away for like a week's camp in some holidays a mom talking to another mother uh and saying was her daughter going to go and the other mom said oh no no we're not going to let our daughter go because she's going to miss her bedtime story and this other daughter was like 21 and my mom was like we are not doing a bedtime story with you and and there was no reason for that child to be um In This Very infantile relationship so you know there's all these different moments where my parents are like no you know you need to to get out and do stuff um so I was really lucky at that that they didn't wrap me in Cotton wool and um you know paralympic pathway came much later um it was just about being fit and healthy yes and in terms of fit and healthy because obviously you know you need need to have that you said you need the strength to um in in in the wheelchair did you actually you know as a child develop extra strength or you know what was your sort of attitude to being able to be mobile yeah so I could walk a little bit when I was very young and I ended up having to walk with calipers and crutches because my legs just never really developed um and my world was very small because I couldn't walk very far and then when I had my first chair then suddenly My World opened up a lot and so immediately I saw a lot more things that I could do because of having a wheelchair but there were loads of people who told my parents you know that I'd never get a job I'd never get married all these you know quite discrimin things because I was in a chair um and Mom and Dad just ignored it and for different reasons you know my dad had been quite ill as a child and had been wrapped in kind of cotton wall by his parents my mom's parents were much older when they had her so she was a bit of a surprise baby so they were a little bit protective of because of that so I think Mom and Dad together were very keen that me and my sister would just you know not not be wrapped in C cotton wo I mean I was really surprised when I read correct me if this is if not accurate but the fact that you were the first female wheelchair user in the world to present on television uh when you presented BBC 2's groundbreaking from The Edge uh and that was you know quite re relatively recently wasn't it yeah the I think probably one of the first is a bit more I was sort of the first uh disabled ex-athlete to present Olympics and work on things like that so you know there's there's lots of you know growing up I didn't see disabled people on TV um I saw um Sandy Richardson Crossroads and Ironside you know both nescent BS so disability wasn't shown and in society disable people were very much locked away as well um you know so either through the education system or institutionalized so you know apart from doing writing for the disabled um you know you just didn't see disabled people anywhere and and so in some ways I think at the time it was good because I didn't grow up in this very negative World um but now I think you do need to kind of be able to see the pathway through and and and a really important part moment for me was watching London marathon on TV as a teenager and and seeing Elite disabled athletes and I was already in sport by then but suddenly it was like oh I can see I can see the pathway and and that was was really important for me I mean I I remember very clearly that the sort of transition of where disability sport became mainstream you know I think I think maybe the the 2012 Olympic the London Olympics you know was a massive step forward in terms of teli televis coverage um in this country um from kind of inside I'm sure you know I mean it's really interesting how youve transitioned from being a highly successful uh Sports person to being a prominent figure of for advocacy um for um disability being more uh more visible and you know better understood uh how important is that for you you know an ongoing basis it's really important you know understanding that lived experience so I'm treated three ways one is an ex-athlete very nicely one is the parliamentarian bit mixed uh and then the third is is a disabled woman where experience a reasonable amount of discrimination so as an athlete I got to travel the world I saw how women disabled people were treated in other jurisdictions um looked at other legislation I actually did a politics degree at University um never planned to go into politics but then actually I just through my time competed I did lots of other things so I think people assume I ended up in the Lords because I used to be an athlete but that's kind of quite a small part of my career it's just bits of my career are not terribly well known so I sat on the national disability Council which overa the implementation the disability Discrimination Act I sat on a couple of government commissions um looking at votes at 16 um I I did lots of other things I worked in sport you know I worked for British Athletics and I sat on the board of sport Wales and sat on the board of UK Sports bort England so I did lots of sort of different roles in sport and in social justice um and then you know having the chance to go and sit in the Lords which is an amazing place I mean it's the least misogynistic place I've ever worked I can't say that for both ends of the building um but um there is something that when you become a peer generally people are just accepting because you've been through a process to get there um and for me it was too big an opportunity to turn down because you got the chance to input and change legislation so there's different bits what you can change by legislation and what you can change by education and I'm a little bit over you know we still get a lot of oh people need to be educated in disability well yeah we kind of do but um you know and as much 2012 was an incredible games and it absolutely raised the profile of par Olympics but it didn't change the world for disabled people and I guess a bit of a challenge for me is that you know it was 14 years ago now and it's there's still a lot to do you know trains were meant to be step free by January the first 2020 it's now going to be 100 years before I can get on the train without permission or support for an undisabled person so pretty much the only thing I post on social media about trains because all I want is the same miserable experience of commuting as as everyone else gets I don't even get that so you know the the education bits the social media you know so I was on a train yesterday and you know a a young man sort of said to me oh like you need to ramp or wa you know and he'd seen some stuff that a friend of mine had posted did so it's for me there's loads of levers that you can pull and we've got to utilize all those levers to get because the reality is disabled people still experience loads of discrimination and loads of exclusion and you know we we we've still got a huge amount to do yeah yeah I mean I know you've spoken on uh things like the the quality of of wheelchairs and and the fact that if you don't have the the right um we know tools to get around then then you know it doesn't matter how how much you want to be um free it's really interesting um it sounds as though you know you you I don't if Joy is the right word but but you you value the um the ability to speak in in the House of Lords I think um you'll know that a lot of people maybe underestimate the importance of the House of Lords you like to you know to say in your opinion how how how good good uh uh thing it is um you know and and that we don't want to start abolishing it anytime soon well it's a bit like turkey's voting for Christmas so you know I mean it's interesting we do get people who accept positions of the House of Lords who fundamentally want to kind of throw out the window which um I think it's quite interesting actually that you know they they see where doing it so you know I'm quite clear you know our role is not to run the country our role is to say to the government of the day would you like to have another think um and the public love and hater us depending what we're doing so you know if they like what we're doing they suddenly think we're brilliant and then they'll change the mind and dislike it I think we've got lots of challenges so that you know if there's a picture of us in the media it's usually State opening where brawling hering robes and you know um that's not real it's a bit like prime minister's questions that is not the real bit of politics that's the theater of it um you know I could I could buy my own in Roes I have to rent them if I want to go to stay opening um I think they're 20 grand if you want to buy them so you know I I don't have a family where we have hering robes in in and so you know a frustration is they'll again the media will talk about you know there's 800 members of the House of Lords well actually there's about 450 who regularly sit and you know we've got some people who don't come very often not because they're lazy but because they're out in the real world working in a thing that they're an expert in so what was made very clear clear to me when I went is that you expected to remain an expert in the thing that got you there so you know you you're not talking about what happened in sport 20 years ago or 30 years ago you're talking about what happened in sport last week and so you know I I think for most of us you kind of we you kind of accept that there's a view of us that might not be real and I want to say to people you know I think the whole of politics needs a bit of a a rethink you know the commons needs I think some restructuring as much as the Lords but say just be a bit careful what you wish for you know um if there is an element if if we suddenly all go to be elected and you know I don't know whe I ABS genuinely have no clue whether I'd stand or not or if I get elected but um you know either everything gets through or nothing gets through depending the timing of of Elections and and what party's put into power at least with that I mean I think we we we're a fairly constant sort of pain in the neck to the commons um and I think that's kind of what we we we should be doing so it' be interesting you know that there may or may not be changes but I I think we we real when we're most successful it's when the government of the day threatens to abolish us that that means we're doing a good job because we're being a pain in the neck absolutely I mean it's interesting um people have said to me of course you know if you if you're in the House of Lords you'd be young because the average age is 7 and they make a big thing in the commment about the fact that you know these are all people and you know when when they're being unkind they would say you know they're sort of out of touch um you've made the point I think um which I would agree with that that the House of Lords is very much full of experts in their field and people um who can take the time to reflect on uh sometimes um government motions that are put through um that have been maybe rushed should we say and and to actually you know I think I think one of the kind of the key ones that was highlighted recently was the leveling up Bill which was which was like a a toone so large it tried to of shovel everything they described as a Christmas tree don't they it tried to shovel everything into into one bill and I know the Lords took a a great and detailed look at it and and um and that I think the people the public don't understand do they that that that really important function which is unpick um legislation yeah I mean I think when you look at it um you know in in the Lords anyone who wants to table an amendment it will be debated and we can talk for as long as we want which is not always a good thing sometimes it is um but you know I think people don't always understand that votes in the Commons you know stuff's guillotined have quite limited you know um ability to debate some things and it's our job to kind of do it line by line um and you know sometimes that you know means a lot of late nights and but that you know I think you know you know what you're signing up to I mean the other thing with the Lords is that you know as an athlete I was considered really old when I retired then I went into Lords and briefly at 39 I was the youngest paer and obviously we've got a couple of much much younger now you know a part of the Lords is about having that Liv life experience and I think when I went there I kind of looked at some of the ages of some of the people and thought you know wow they're really old um but then you listen to them speak and actually that's kind of interesting when you get new members of parliament who really just like the House of Lords a lot of them will if they come and listen to a debate well then say actually youve every view that is possibly represented in wider Society people feel quite safe to talk about their views in in in the House of Lords and it's having that you know quite sometimes uncomfortable views you know there will be people out in the real world that think those very uncomfortable things so you know that's I I think a a big strength of of how the place works I mean it's completely mad you know and you know some of our rules of you know it only becomes afternoon when the mace is in the chamber so Monday and Tuesdays 2:30 Wednesday's 3: Thursday 11 and Fridays 10: so you know at 1:00 on a Monday people will be saying good morning you know and you know there's some completely Bonkers things but then you know what we're trying to do is have a rational mostly censal debate and represent you know people's views from the outside world yeah and you're absolutely right I mean people don't understand that in in the Commons you know quite often you're restricted to three minutes to speak on something and that tends to be a sound bite for social media you know and not much else and so the substance of the debate happens outside the chamber in you know committee rooms but um the laws is a really important aspect of that um and and you're absolutely right when you touched on misogynism and you know being different in other places um and aism as well I would say because there is a suggestion that um that maybe older people are out of touch and and you know you quite rightly said that uh it's about keeping up toate in whatever your specialism is and you know your biological age doesn't doesn't affect how engaged you are with with Society um and with your specialist subject yeah and I think that's something I've absolutely learned from being there that you know you know AG is a number exactly you know part of you know what you're doing it's that don't make assumptions about somebody because of their age you know either way so you know some of our younger members that have have joined they've been criticized for being very young but you know there is I'm not entirely sure what is the right age to to come into the Lords I I think absolute lived experience does does do matter but don't write people off so you know I worked with people in their 90s who will have forgotten more than I've you know will ever learn in my life um and then you you look at it I mean I always think it's worth looking at the backgrounds of people you know who who sit in the Lord so yeah we've got some unbelievably well-off people like I me Rich not well-off like Rich um but they may have left school at 14 with no qualifications and built a business you know until relatively recently there were more women in the Lords than in the Commons you know more State educated people in the Lords and the com you know so the there's 26 different religions represented in the Lords um and it is very you know different um and there was one funny moment and I'd come out of the chamber in a debate and it was Sparky for the House of Lords which means it wasn't Sparky at all and um a member of the public said oh it's just full of old men like who who was that one he was talking like Joel jofy Lord jofy oh what's he ever done human rights lawyer oh yeah human rights law so what's he ever really done in his life and it's like he got Nelson Mandela off the death penalty yeah you know and it was one of those moments that if it been in it wouldn't have been quite so cool but um yeah it just it's just it's um know the world's changed I'd say you know certainly the vast majority of people I work with um are connected to the world you know don't just look at where they are in their life now but kind of look at everything that they bring to to the chamber and I I think that's kind of really important do you think it's I mean I think it's important in both houses and um you know sadly uh I don't think in the Commons that anybody's backstory is really looked at in any great detail and um you know the fact that experience is is quite useful in law making you know um should should apply in both houses but um I think it it it applies less um kind of moving on to uh what I think some of the the the issues that that well I guess going to be coming up in the new Parliament regardless of of um who the government is um and I know you spoken a lot about um well well advocating against assisted dying um understand that that's something that I I read recently that s Dharma is is possibly um likely to be um supporting um to what extent um does your experience within within the Lords and and in life in general form your opinion on you know that the um your your view on assist dying yeah it it informs it quite a lot so um you know quite often people with a similar view as me you know it will be said oh well you doing that CU you're religious you know I'm not I'm an atheist you know I I don't have faith um for me I I see every day the Discrimination that disabled people experience and where we're written off we're told we have no value you know a lot of the narrative over quite a few years has been about disabled people as being benefit scers and sucking money out the state and you know really not positive and you know 50% of the disabled people who could work aren't in work so there's there's lots of you know narratives which aren't helpful and you know I've had people say to me um you know if my life was like yours I kill myself and like I have a really privileged life so you know the assumption that being a wheelchair user is like the worst thing that could ever happen and you know there was a debate where somebody you know for them said you know they couldn't bear to be in continent they would want to end their life if they were in continent I was like well I'm technically I have to catheterize you know if I don't do that I would be and you know I kind of don't choose to do it but it's not the worst thing in my life so it's the assumptions that we make about people um and you know the vast majority of disabled people I know um have multiple times a month if not weekly are told they have no value in society so would be pushed to towards it and then you layer on that you know covid and the compulsory do not attempt resuscitation orders that will put on disabled people without their knowledge uh or discussion you know I I just worry it changes our relationship with society and our social contracts and you know you start looking at other jurisdictions around the world and you know in nine years in Canada where they started and where they are now you know I know a lot of people want to change the law are distancing themselves from from Canada but there if you're anorexic you you fit the criteria because without treatment you you will die so you know um in Canada you can request it for being poor um and there's a story uh I mean Christine gothier uh Canadian paralympian she requested some financial support to build a ramp outside a house and she was offered the drugs to Ender life yeah so you know European jurisdictions you know if you hit 70 with no underlying health condition you can request it for being old and I don't think 70 is old anymore I mean not least because I'm 54 I'm kind of getting closer to it but partly around the people I work with you know comes back to the average age yeah yeah people I work with um you know no And so there's there's multiple reasons I just really worry about it and you know there's a lot of stuff that gets thrown around doctors do it already I don't um you know it's I I just think it it will change uh and that settled wish it's very hard to Define it and whether you know there will be the time and the effort and the money spent to decide whether it is genuinely a settled wish or it's you know coercion I think we'll just erode and you know a colleague of mine said you know where there's a will there's a relative um and you know that that just stuck with me a lot yes yes well know you're absolutely right about age so I'm 71 and I'm just getting started you know it really it really is just just a number but I mean it's interesting that the um the assessment of of of who makes a valuable contribution to life and and who is um Expendable I suppose um is is a a a really difficult one for uh the medical profession to Define I would get because it's as much about the the person themselves um being given the opportunity the confidence and and uh to feel valued and and uh you know to have a an active role to play um I mean I guess there is another category you know that that there's been a lot about motor neurone disease um obviously with the story that's covered in in Coronation Street and and um you know and the um yeah you know the sad death of Rob borrow the um the question of if you have a an obvious terminal illness that that requires sort of ever more um well that you have a loss of of um limbs everything whether that is a different case from obviously you know the example of somebody with anorexia uh whether you can kind of subdivide you know what would be a reasonable case to be made for somebody choosing to to end their life as opposed to uh you know a medical case for saying well all of these illnesses you can and you know if a relative says um think that they're ill enough that they they should as opposed to to a genuine medical um medical challenge it's really hard I think once you start trying to subdivide some of these things which is yes they're in and no they're not in yeah and some of the people who've brought high court cases to try and change the law actually some of their conditions wouldn't have qualified so it's it's how you so doctors you know will very clearly say um given a six-month diagnosis is is a bit of a kind of finger air you know you're trying to make a a best case judgment the other bit about the settled wish is that you know how do you Pro so our mental capacity act isn't fully enforced in the UK and so you know if we go down that route bringing in there's lots of other bits of legislation that would also be required you know so two doctors do they know you do they not know you are they able to spot you know doctors aren't trying to spot coercion yeah and you know last year we we've done a lot of work in in Parliament on coercive relationships and so you know if it happens in a domestic environment then why wouldn't it also impact this and you know there there's a number of conditions which are just horrible you know muron you know is is one of them um and you know it's I've had friends who've um been through it died you know it's it's it's cruel but changing the law to end people's lives is just brings a different set of issues and I think you know for me I'd rather see you know proper pal of care lot you know support for people and and help for the families so people have time to be with their loved ones and not actually sort of ground down by care and responsibilities now it's a different problem in terms of how you pay for it but in Oregon which is one of the jurisdictions that's had it for the longest amount of time being a burden is the one of the biggest reasons that people choose to end their lives not intolerable pain which again is quite hard to measure so you know what's pain to me is not pain to somebody else so you know there's it what I would say to people is that you know the the Top Line you know two doctors six month settle wish are great sound bites but the devil is is for everything every bit of legislation we do devils in the detail you know it's like what drugs do you use where can you end your life how will they be um administered who will administer them you know will your family be you know there's there's lots of questions and the drugs bit is not the pleasant is a very hard bit to talk about but no jurisdiction in the world has approved the drugs they just use a a fairly random cocktail and in many cases you know what what what I hope my death is I just fall asleep and don't wake up you know and that's what people you know because we don't talk about death because it's not very nice and what's on the other side and all these things that we don't want to talk about um but in many cases it's not you take one pill and you slip away there's there's numerous cases of it being really very unpleasant and unpleasant for the family around so you know what I just say is just look look beyond the sound bites to actually what would change in our society if this becomes law it's interesting you raised the not exactly alternative but but that we need to do more about paliative care and end of life care and um I mean I've been saying this for for for for a long time that that we we are afraid as as a society to talk about death and to to address it and um the the need to invest in that quality of of end of Life Care is something that you know we we we've kind of renaged on as as as a as a society in that you know when the National Health Service was set up it was supposed to be from Cradle to grave but it's actually from Cradle to just before um you know when when you're um close to to your last days but you know not there yet um and we rely on the hospice movement without funding it fully and um the the support networks are not adequate for um for people's needs and I think that that you know part of of looking at at um our attitude to age as we become an Ever older Society has to be that you know why why do we think that that one aspect of our health is is more important than than actually you know looking after people in their in their final days and making it something that is not um burdensome which is is is is as you say the key to why people uh opt for the other option yeah and paliative Care is a postcode Lottery um there's a lot of misinformation out there um uh sadly you know about pain relief you know that I think and this is again very difficult to say people you you don't want your loved ones to suffer but the idea is you know I get L people say oh well the doctor gave my you know my grandmother a bit of morphine and she slipped away and it's like there's always that last cuper te there's always that last pain relief injection there's always so you know I think we need to be thinking about that but also um we need to be thinking about us being a fit and healthy Nation so we say We're a nation that likes sport We're a nation likes watching sport we're not really a nation that's terribly active and you know we we need to build in physical activity so this sounds very harsh when I say it but you want people to be as fit and healthy and as active right the way through their life because what we're seeing now in British societies people hitting Frailty in their 40s and they're living for 35 years with Realty which means the quality life is pretty miserable um and so what you want people to be as fit and healthy as long as they can and then pass away quickly not spend 30 years dying now that sounds really horrible when I say it but it's there's so much more we need to do around the NHS because it is not sustainable in current format you know diabetes costs the nation 10 billion a year and it's okay you know so so for me it's like you know I don't think it's sensible just to keep giving people drugs and they don't change their lifestyle now eating well comes at a cost and there's a lot of people who right now with cost Liv are struggling to eat well um and and to have you know your fruit and veg and all these different things but um you know just writing prescriptions is is not the answer you know I want the NHS to St free at the point of delivery um for everybody but if we're not careful it's it's not going to remain that way and then it's going to be a very much a two-tier system in this country which is you know you see it in the states and a lot of other countries I visited and it's it's not a great place to be if you you're not supported yeah no I absolutely agree I mean I I did a lot of work around um diet and you know healthy healthy eating and and how um prevention is so much better than than tackling diabetes after it happens and and um you know I was I was accused of of being sort of a support of the nanny State um which which is this term for sort of government shouldn't shouldn't intervene in things but I do think in preventative health care uh and setting the direction there is a role for public health and and and government but I mean interestingly um the the General Health of the nation you know is is that is that something that each individual just has to sort of take responsibility for and government's got no role to play or is it something that that that genuinely um we need to make it easier for people I mean I know I spoke on there've been something like 69 different obesity strategies in the last 30 years and none of them have been implemented you know it's kind of well how are we going to shift the dial on this because we all know that it that it's essential and yet nothing seems to change people don't tend to worry about their health until they're ill and you know something you kind of kicked the can down the road on instead of thinking about prevention and you know there is a role that government has to to play in this you could build physical activity into school life um you know so there's a reason that a lot of our cly Olympic medalists come from Independent Schools not paralympians because there's a whole different reason for that but um it it's not just about some of it parents they some parents many parents have got money to take their kids to multiple Sport and events but a lot of it and is around that it's embedded into the school day so every day those children will be being active but also they're being taught PE in the prep school by trained PE teachers not as what happens in the state sector is that it'll be the PE teacher that is the sporty one which might actually only mean you go to Zumba or you any other kind of activity or you know when you've done your teacher training you get four hours um being taught how to deliver PE now first I couldn't be couldn't be a primary school teacher at all but if you don't love physical activity trying to teach PE with 30 children who are all at completely different points of the physical literacy Journey it is like her in shape it is just really difficult and so for me we you could change the curriculum quite quickly you could uh change the teacher training quite quickly um you can do after school clubs and not not just lumping something else on for teachers to do but you build that into the day but but also you know there's so much we need to do so girls still this hasn't changed since I was in school girls start disengaging with physical activity at 8 because we value sporty boys more than we value sporty girls and then by 13 they're completely disengaged and it's about what they were how they're perceived the media coverage around them you know it's just it's it's not easy it's not easy being a boy but it's not easy being a young girl um in trying to be active because we're meant to be beautiful and lovely and have her hair done we're not meant to look sweaty and snotty and you know some of the clothes you're meant to wear you know just so there's lots of things we could do to change social prescribing I have to say you know is is developing and moving on but GPS don't know how to prescribe physical activity doctors are pretty unhealthy because of the hours they work so they don't do it themselves so if they don't do it themselves they're not going to you know um you know tell people uh what else to do and I was talking to a friend of mine actually his son's a doctor in Canada and he's a GP and he was just saying he has his own patients and so he knows you know his patients and they're much more able to go through prevention and get people thinking about their Lifestyles and that little bit of Lifestyle coaching you know and so you know you're not telling people not to drink alcohol but saying think about the alcohol you drink so it's so I do think government has a role um you know and and local government has a role but the budget cuts that they're facing you know they're making really big decisions and closing physical activity spaces because they've got Health and Social care to pay for which takes a massive chunk of the budget so you know are we going to go back to the 1950s and 60s where we all looked after our grandparents at home and you know that's nonsense but it comes back to that social contract again is what do we expect from you know from government do we expect everything to be paid for support you know talk about wheelchairs you know just when I was a kid there were two wheelchairs there was a child's chair and an adult's chair and that's moved now that there's a huge range of chairs which were available which is brilliant but then you know ultimately with all this stuff somewhere along the lines we've got to pay for it and you know never thought I'd quote Theresa May but you know there is no Magic Money Tree yeah so you know we we've got to think not just about reform of the NHS or reform of education and but like you know every government wants to be the one that reforms the NHS yeah um you know we've got to think of it more holistically about what we do because it's only going to get worse and we're only going to get people getting older less fit less healthy less able to work and that's going to cause us more problems yeah and don't you think that that we we regard old people and aging as a problem rather than you know potentially also an opportunity to uh if we can have people staying fitter for longer that they make an active contribution to the economy you know which um you know with with of low productivity and and and and challenges at the moment would actually be a good thing but I mean it's interesting you you you went back to kind of school um activities and and um the you know the absence of of of sufficient sport in schools um I also think that that possibly there's there's a time in I don't know midlife say when you know people had family and they've grown up where they need to then look after their own health you say sort of pre-diabetes and and you know pre the the things kicking in that are then going to last for the rest of their lives and there doesn't seem to me to be an offer and I'm not suggesting for a minute that it should be a state offer it's maybe you know the private sector should be looking at you know gyms for the over 55s or um something that that basically appeals to people of of of the kind of baby boomer generation whereas they don't necessarily want to go to these gyms where you've got people sort of flexing their muscles and posing in front of mirr and you know trying to be sort of Mr Universe um but just want to do it for their health yeah and and and that's the other thing is like if you've never gone into a gym or you've disengaged with physical activity how do you know what to do yeah and um you know for me because kind of big chunk of my life was being an athlete then you've kind of got a really good idea of the things that you need to do so sports like netball have done some really interesting things where they've brought women back into netball uh and you know walking football walking that ball you know uh governing bodies are having to diversify because you know children now don't want to play sport the same way that I did and there's there's also like a loads of choices about what sports you can do for some people not not for everyone of course but um you know so again come back to Ms Ms will put themselves last every single time they will think it's important for their children to eat or be active or their husband to be active before them and you know I've been talking about this for year you know we we know moms set a really positive example with their children if they're able to be active with their children in a different way from dads um and you know we need to be better at getting mum's active and I think what we thought for a long time is people played sport and they stayed in sport and they're all you know the ones that but people dip in and out as well at different points in their life when you know when your kids are very young or when your parents are not well and it's finding that way to to keep them engaged longer but but teach people about the activity to do so you know um and it always makes me laugh in London where it's talk about being active and I say oh get off a bus stop earlier and it's like well where I live in the northeast of England going be two miles down the door garage way you know or you know there's one bus a day so you know it's um it's it's understanding the around you as as well and you know I I think we we've got to do something pretty quickly to get people to think about you know how like when you're worried about money and you know all these different things which are you know of a massive concern being active is bottom the list and there's also you know there's some great summer clubs and things around but when I was involved with a couple years ago a mama brought her kids uh and at the end of the second day she said they can't come back for the rest of the week because they're coming home too hungry and can't put food on the table and it's like so you can talk as much as you want about being Physically Active but if you can't afford to speak to kids you don't want them being active yeah of course of course I have to say one of the the most challenging things I did um in four and a half years I was the MP in stoon central was a two-hour training session with the local wheelchair basketball team I have never felt so exhausted in all my life and the challenge of is it scoring a hoop where um I was I was determined to do it and I couldn't do it sort of facing forwards and so somebody said why don't you shoot backwards and uh we we took two hours and and finally I got one in and we man we managed to video it and so it was kind of way you know no how to do it but it was it was incredibly challenging um there's a couple of questions I always like to to to ask my guests and and one of them is uh if you were able to give a piece of advice to your much younger self knowing what you know now what would it be probably a few rows with people I've had along the way that I probably should have learned to keep my mouth shut um but actually at the time I felt passionate about what I was arguing for so I do a lot of work on duty care and Sport and athletes rights and you know athletes don't have a lot of power or voice with within the sports movement so so um yeah I talk about that um I probably it's I don't write anything off you know at 21 I was like I'm never going to work in politics because that's for losers and then you know that's where my path took me so I think what I learned from being young is just try to make the most of every opportunity you know and and never say never um so yeah there's there's probably quite a few things I would have tell my younger self great and I'm not sure if you you've even thought about a bucket list yet but you know what what do you still have that you you desperately want to do you know to be on your CV oh making public transport better just you know so disabled people can use I mean a lot of it is around disability you know um whichever government comes into Power there's going to be you know welfare reform that's going to come to us pretty quickly um I think we need a radical change of the system not tinkering around the edges feel like the NHS it's not affordable in its its current format um and I think there's a lot to do around employment in terms of you know getting people um you know into work and and everything that that brings uh in terms of you know just making you get out of bed in the morning and focus and money and um you know the social contract so yeah I've got a really really long list of things that that I want to do and so aside from from politics at a personal level you know is there a a country that you've always wanted to visit or um you know something that um yeah you haven't had time to do I guess because of your busy life that you know when when whenever you slow down which I suspect will be in about 40 years time um I mean I was really lucky as an athlete I got to travel a lot which was was really nice um I would I mean I got to work in Tokyo for the paral Olympics but because of lockdown we didn't um I wasn't allowed actually to move around Tokyo so uh yeah my my bucket list for somewhere to go would be uh back to Japan and I was allowed out on the very last night I was there and suddenly thought this is amazing I'll get some like really amazing Japanese food because I lived in basically the broadcast Center and lived on meatballs and and pasta which so you know which is the food of that you get in broadcast centers all over the world um and we we only found one place open by the time I finished working it was this little um little restaurant underneath the railway archers by the railway station and it was like and the sh was like an open kitchen and I was like and we went in and the chef was so excited um he made me chips I don't want chips don't give me chips anyway yeah so Japan I'd love to go back to Japan yeah yeah that was such a shame wasn't it that it was lockedown throughout the Olympics because it it you know would have been a completely different lips in that Tanny thank you so much it's been a really brilliant conversation um and um and I've learned a lot more from you and um I look forward to to following your your progress with all those things in the house of the Lord thank you thank you very much [Music]