Lord Peter Hendy: Railway 200 & how the railway made the modern world

Intro [Music] hello and welcome to episode seven of green signals your Railway podcast from me Nigel Harris in Lincolnshire and and me a slightly croaky Richard balker here in darbishire I'm sure you'll hold up for the episode Richard I'll do my best absolutely I know you will I'm sure you'll be on top form seven episodes they're flashing past now aren't they anyway on the show today we've got your reactions to last week's episode with our special guest Professor Andrew mcnorton and feedback and comments prompted by Richard and I's appearance at the transport select committee which is an interesting exercise the green signals view about the appearance of Mark Harper Secretary of State for transports at the TSC a week or so later on Wednesday 15th is also featured spoiler we aren't flattering about him and that's before we get to our very special guest the Lord hendy of Richmond Hill of imber in the county of Wilshire better known on the railway as Network rail chair of Peter hendy CBE to talk specifically about the rail 200 Venture he's leading for 2025 to properly celebrate the 200th anniversary of the opening of the stock and Darlington Railway on September the 27th 1825 the SDR was the world's first public Railway to use steam locomotives and is therefore Ground Zero for every Railway in the world and let's remember the SDR put an end to the world's longest lasting speed limit which restricted Mankind's development that of a galloping horse this is a pack show so let's get straight on to reaction for last week's show about hs2 at the transport select Listener comments on last week's show committee with Prof Andrew mcnorton firstly thanks so much for all your wonderful comments and they're also very often quite witty and ironic too which we which we like so keep it coming Jim mags for example said wow Andrew was superb his knowledge is incredible of all aspects of this project I was really impressed by this discussion so are we Andrew is always very impressive James Taylor no not that one least where I don't think it is said sunak Harper and marman sounds like it should be on a brass plate somewhere doesn't it Su night Harper and marman should be put in a locked room and made to watch episode six of the green signals podcast over and over again until Common Sense hits home I like the sound of that one Richard do you think it would oh moving swiftly indeed and electric Eagle Alec lemus said dear Nigel Richard and Steph please include a health warning for the green signals episode with Andrew mcnorton as the rage induced as Mr mcnorton laid out the Staggering stupidity of canceling hs2 phase 2A is severe yeah Alex it has the um it had the same impact on us too though so thanks for all those comments there were many many more I mean Andre was just superb wasn't he Richard he was great he's he's so calm you know so sort of measured um even though I think we were probably all doing a bit of this but no he was he was absolutely superb good value he will definitely be treading these corridors again before too long hopefully now we recorded the show with Andrew off the back of the appearance by Richard and me at the TSC which was Reflections on Green Signals' appearance at the Transport Select Committee quite an experience Richard's done it loads of times I've done three of them but they are quite quite intensive requiring laser focus concentration over on this occasion the two hours or so were being grilled by MPS you agree Richard yeah and I mean I've done a few but uh you'd never ever take them lightly um I I Ian I thought Ian Stewart who uh is the chair of the committee um ched it really well I thought we got on balance a very good hearing even though a couple of the questions uh from members were were really started with the answer and then developed the question as they went didn't they really so yeah they did and it always feels very contrived when that happens doesn't it quite apart from the fact it just comes AC I don't it's just ridiculous anyway let's move on but then Mark Harper appeared on Wednesday with a committee armed with information they mine from our session of course which is why we were there for a quite lengthy interrogation of the Secretary of State not all about hs2 of course and I find myself thinking that electric Eagles health warning was probably applicable to the Secretary of State as well I certainly found his answers infuriating and at best misleading um I shall resist the temptation to say too much as I know Richard has some characteristically piy that's the word of the by py sometimes you're aidite but today you're piy characteristically piy views which you have to say carefully of course you were pretty irritated too Richard weren't you yeah I was I was irritated really I mean his big point was in disagreeing with our strong and and we think evidenced argument and not just us by the way this is you know lots of other people got the same view um the hs2 phase 2A so the bit from Birmingham to crew in particular um is is not required because incredibly I felt we felt in in his view that's Secretary of State there is no current or even foreseeable capacity problem um I see no ships I see no ships and and actually when Ian St the committee chair pressed him on on the fact that the West Coast Mainline north of Hana Junction is either full or or very nearly full um the Secretary of State said this and I'm quoting him he said the first point is we I government DFT we don't agree with the contention about the current balance between demand and Supply the contention being from us that it's running out of supply and clearly doesn't agree with that and then he says in making the decision we did to deliver phase one we did look very carefully at the demand forecasts and there's no objective magic way of understanding what they look like and I thought wow the Secretary of State for transport as he just said that there's no sort of established methodology for forecasting demand I mean no wonder is sort of civil Serv were sort of sat there I felt looking a little bit I don't know sheepish I don't know what's the word uncomfortable uncomfortable no that they did look a bit uncomfortable at that um but but then he went on to say this and it and it's a bit long I'm sorry this quote's a bit long but it's it's worth hearing what he said um and I've I've just taken a bit couple of bits out but I haven't changed the emphasis or the meaning or anything just just because it was quite a lot he said if you look at the demand growth on the west coast Mainline pre pandemic mic it was sort of broadly a straight line so a reasonable assumption would be that that would continue the problem with the pandemic there was a massive discontinuity of course as we drove people away from Rail and then he he talks about lockdowns and concerns around health and that you know that all kind of made sense um and it hasn't rebounded as fast as we would hope and if you try and project 10 20 30 years there's a debate to be had about about how fast the demand's going to come back and different people have different views and we looked extensively at modeling and assumptions about demand there's no objective answer and there's a huge difference between the assumptions of demand growth about when you hit capacity so he basically saying we just don't agree that we're going to run out um I think his choice of words at the beginning of his evidence was critical he said the first point is that we don't agree with a content mentioned about the com the current balance between demand and supply and I actually think Nigel he's fallen for this nonsense that because demand is suppressed at the moment it's rebase things forever and it's going to stay like this forever and and if he thinks that honestly he's dreaming when the cork is finally unplugged from the bottle growth will return and he would do big time well he would do well to remember that between 9696 7 and 201819 demand on Virgin West Coast tripled it it went up 200% so from today he's only got to go up 30% and he's back to where it was pre pandemic I think he also fails to understand how Railway capacity works okay so it's a function of two things it's trains per hour and then seats per train okay um now he's royally stuffed seats per Train by cancelling phase 2B Manchester picity will not get its 400 meter long platforms so the trains will be constrained to 200 MERS long I think actually there a serious possibility might actually have slightly fewer seats on the fast services from Manchester to London than he's got at the moment right and I'm sure somebody can work that out but when you look at trains per hour or slots if you like they are constrained by different things so they're constrained by differential speed the fact freight trains go a lot slower than inter city trains it can um there's service patterns and stopping patterns there's Junction layout and that's a physical constraint and then there's the signaling system which obviously controls the gaps between the trains they're the big ones they're four big ones but they are really serious things he didn't mention Freight hardly at all at hardly at all right and the real issue is that we know it's a slightly soften Market at the moment is a little bit kind of cyclical when that comes back and it will come back it'll come storming back and then we'll very quickly run out of uh capacity but the good news there is some good news he said goodness I have to say to my slight surprise but he said nonetheless he and his officials looked extensively at modeling and assumptions about demand making the decision to cancel phase two that's pretty impressive in the Apparently very limited time they had um but it does exist that's good so I shall be writing to the Secretary of State asking him to share those assumptions and that modeling so that we can have a good look at that um we keep an open mind um we do always keep an open mind absolutely but and we'll see if those assumptions um hold water right couple of just quick comments on that the freight thing the railr group um Maggie Simpson did some brilliant analysis and you're right Intermodal traffic is is subdued at the moment and will come back uh and over that really busy um well we think he's busy he doesn't section north of hanac um I think Maggie said there's maybe one or two paths could be got back but they're going to be very quickly filled as soon as Intermodal starts to recover gone and there's no capacity for anything then um and I think you should WR not least because in the select committee I think you were named um around some of this evidence so you've got every right to to write and ask him and say well show us your numbers and let us have a look and confirm what you think Secretary of State if he doesn't want to do that then we can draw our own conclusion indeed the bit the bit where he referenc where um my evidence was referenced was when the chair of the committee again Ian Stewart said well that's you know that's all very interesting but he pressed him on the section north of Haner and said you know um when Richard balker told us that that when last look at the West Coast rout modernization obviously 20 years or so ago one of the things we looked at with was a Stafford Bypass or a St Stafford cut off um which is ironically pretty much what phase 2A 2A is is so yeah I I we we will write and we'll we'll see what comes back and um I think the the interesting thing is Nigel um they've I think they think they've kind of made a decision and now we can all sort of move on um and and whilst we don't want to get you know overly bogged down by this um there was clearly some analysis done and it's not unreasonable that we all see what that was absolutely um just picking up a point you made there one of the many things I found irritating about about Mr Harper's appearance was his entire demeanor was just as you implied then the government believes that the widespread criticisms of their mad decisions to scrap a chest to North we've answered them we'll move on now well no we're not going to move on now a line has not been effectively drawn under that argument until such time as you've seen that data and we will be coming back to this won't we we will he I mean for those who haven't watched his evidence he was very courteous he did he did at least acknowledge that there are differences of opinions um and we agree with that the only thing is that we think our opinion has got evidence to back it up I was reminded of um of one of my bosses long ago at emat when I started in the early 90s chap called Richard Hopkins who had a habit to say it and he said this to me various on various occasions when we're having disputes about paper quality or pagination you know don't confuse me with a fact knowledge me mind's made up and it was a bit like that anyway moving on moving on trouble in the Rolling Alstom winding down train building in Derby Stock sector Richard news reached Us in the last week that alstom o owner of the former British Roy lit Church Lane Carriage Works in Derby now train building Factory is going to start the process of winding down train building in the city not for the first time this threats come from lit Church Lane um the unions blamed it on hs2 the Prime Minister said it wasn't hs2 um I guess it do really matter at one level it's not good news but has the the unions and the Prime Minister got a point Richard surely there hasn't been enough time for the contract to be varied as yet to say there's going to be fewer trains built um I don't honestly know uh the detail but I do know that kind of this this storm has been brewing for um a number of years I mean I don't know if I I don't have any evidence of a sort of a coherent Rolling Stock strategy You could argue it's a it was set up for the private sector to meet the demand and the rosos the Rolling Stock leasing companies you know have done a a good job in fairness of investing in new trains I mean the amount of capital um which otherwise would have had to be funded out of uh of the public sector balance sheet uh that's been invested in new trains I mean we're talking billions and billions of pounds but but the reality is over the last few years course the government's become the customer um through the um through the concessions as they are now and so we're in a completely different world and it's not unreasonable for the supply chain it's not just trains but the whole supply chain to say look could you be very clear about what's coming down the line um if you'll if you'll excuse the pun the average age of Rolling Stock of trains in the UK I think it's something like 16 17 years at the moment and it moves you know over time if you think that trains are designed for a sort of a 30 to 35 year life that means that where we are today is just basically the the average point it's the medium point where we should be where we should be right and if you stop and you don't have a coherent plan um then it's going to only going to get worse it's not unreasonable to say can you give us a a forward view I think the problem for Derby might be you know it's it's a bit too late but I mean that we need to do some more research into that well we have seen major issues haven't you with the arterial trains for southwestern also alstom the tpe Nova 3 trains been taken out of ser service that are virtually brand new will be there have been some serious concerns around build quality from calf class 17 five trains coming off lease hsts which were admittedly getting a bit long in the tooth being withdrawn from cross country leaving only voyagers much shorter trains to shoulder the burden but hey why do civil servants care and with all sorts of stories of overcrowding as a direct result and yet we've got the dear old sprinters the BR second generation dmus continuing to do Sterling service haven't been introduced as long ago as 1984 now hitach a warning of potentially up to 10,000 job losses in the UK rail vehicle Supply sector whilst at the same time rail Minister Hugh mer merman is reported as saying the sector is something like double the capacity it needs well you don't need to be a genius to work out where that's going do you feels like a green signals investigation coming on yeah it does um it's always been a really curious sector the rolling stop the train sort of manufacturing sector I know from my own procurement days buying Northern line tube trains and then voyages and pendolino um that it's it's very political I mean it really is very political um but it's not just about trains it is about jobs and it's about Regional economics it's also very high-profile I mean don't forget slightly it's slightly embarrassing for someone at least that Derby which is the location where we're talking about this Factory is also the location the government just chosen for the headquarters of Great British Railways um now you know whether you read too much into that I don't know but it's certainly Jolly unfortunate timing so government have once again got another um problem to to cope with i i a lot of this could be resolved or certainly a long way to being resolved with a coherent long-term Rolling Stock strategy probably linked to a very coherent rolling program of electrification so I think it's something that we should look at and hopefully get a few people on who can help us understand it well it's just more more examples of a lack of any long-term clear thinking for the the industry as a whole which is of course a system of signals and track and trains and people and it's just not being considered in in that uh in that way so Lord Hendy interview on Railway 200 complete change of tack now our guest this week is the Lord hendy of Richmond Hill of imber in the county of Wilshire better known as Peter hendy who's the chair of network Rail and a public transport career professional for person in buses and then Railways here's what may be two relatively little known facts about Peter one he was once a London bus driver and now owns I think two classic London route Master buses and two Peter's always been a very active a knowledgeable Railway fan and how about this he was actually a fairp paying passenger on the legendary 15 Guinea special in August 1968 which was br's last official steam train from Liverpool to Carolina back I bet you've still got the ticket too Peter I have it's framed uh actually it's in this office on the wall signed by every one of the drivers firemen and guards on those on wow that's fabulous so definitely a Time sered paid up grer in every respect yeah guil guilty anyway just like the rest of us Peter even Richard admitted recently to a bit of an interest in Ste posting pictures on TW of him in Polish steam engines so you see there all anyway look welcome Peter who you are also chair of rail 200 yeah and I suppose we should start um Peter by by by just explaining what this particular event is I mean what is it that we're celebrating 200 years of I guess so um yes so so Railway What is Railway 200? 200 is to celebrate uh the first public passenger uh train uh uh journey in on the stocking the Darlington Railway in uh 1825 and you can have a bit of a discussion about what the first uh Journey on a public Railway was and the first passenger Journey but actually the the historical importance is that a number of strands came together on the Stockton and Darlington Row in September 1825 and it represented that really the first the first the first Railway in of of the of the type that changed the world does that make sense ye yes it does it brought together public passenger can and and the use of steam didn't it um and I thought that was particularly interesting one of those little historical quirks that uh Stevenson actually heard that Edward peas was going to build an Eight Mile Line from Stockton to Darlington and intended to use horses and I would have loved to have seen the letter where Steve ston told him that a steam engine could pull 50 times as much as a horse on Rails and P P naturally did the right thing and let Stevenson equip the line so yes it it brought all those things together but the rail industry we just mentioned the 15 Guinea special Peter yeah very good at Milestone celebrations Liverpool and Manchester in 1980 um the snd 25th anniversary in 1975 up at shieldon which BR did um so was it that the sort of motivation to just do that again or have you got have you got more in mind that you want rail 200 to achieve rather than just a a sort of single big event oh well yes absolutely so so one of my jobs one of my principal jobs as a chair of network Rial is to go around and talk about what the modern Railway is for not what it does but what it's for and what it's for is that connectivity it creates connectivity makes connectivity better and that creates economic growth jobs housing social cohesion uh and sustainability um and and if you look in a historical perspective the first public steam passenger Journey on on the Stockton and Darlington Railway literally changed the world and it changed the world because those things that I mention that the modern Railway does uh it did in 1825 and Beyond and and what I think is there there's one element of this of course which is to celebrate the particular uh uh uh anniversary for Stockton and Dynasty we'll come on to how we do it but there's a much wider celebration which is the place of the Railway in our modern world and it's not just about history it's about the present and very much about the future um and and and I think particularly given all the uncertainty in the railway industry at the moment that a nationwide year-long celebration about what the railway has done is doing and can do for the country is well frankly it's just a bloody good thing to do isn't it now also so uh we can have some fun uh and I'm in favor of having fun uh as we did with 150th anniversary of the tube uh when I was at tfl and this ought to be the occasion for uh a bit of fun around the nation um but there is as I've said there's a serious point to it the railway has created our modern world and in fact it's the reason why so many people talk so much about railway investment because in innately people know that if you get better Railway connection you get growth and jobs and housing and social cohesion and and and and sustainability um so let's celebrate it and well you just put your finger on it um Peter didn't you you didn't say the railway influence the modern world the railway created the modern world it made us what we are AB absolutely you know I'm I'm I I I don't I don't ever talk much about my academic career because I'm not sure I I I work terribly hard but but I did do economic geography and if you look at Britain the the economic geography of Britain as indeed in in in every country in the world which has Railways is is about the history of the Railway you know towns that got a railway th thrived towns that didn't didn't Thrive you know that um you can find examples all over Britain of places on stage coach routes which didn't want or didn't get a railway and and and withered and you can find other places which did get a ra way and indeed of course the railway created towns didn't it Swindon wasn't a place at all it wasn't much of a place um until uh Brunell decided that he'd put the Great Western Railway there so and and and that you can take around the whole of the country it's not just about Stockton and Darlington it it and and you you know every town and city in Britain that that has got or used to have a railway will have will have something to say about its its Railway history and the influence of the rail Railway on on on how it developed you know I you I don't know whether you both know but I my uh my father's a cornishman you know the Great Western Railway made Cornwall by being the way in which you transported uh spring vegetables and flowers to the rest of Britain you know uh and and so so with coal and steel and iron and all that you know one of the things I know you're very passionate about Peter are are people you know Railway people and one of the things that's pretty clear from the rail 200 plans is inspiring another generation of people to join the industry and be part of the industry but also I saw some fantastic stuff about stem uh and how important that is in terms of schools and education so this feels very much like um a a people oriented celebration and about inspiring the next generation is that is is that really at the heart of this as well absolutely Richard so so I when I think I I'm I'm of a generation where many of the people that I started to work for and many of the people actually in the rail industry today sort of got there by accident uh the number of people I can I can find um uh in in my addressbook who sort of started on the on in the transport industry on the railway because it was a job that they could get part you know as a short term and then and then got into it now actually we've got a we've got a crisis in the railway industry in both operations and Engineering everywhere you look which is that there there the the average age and the and the gender and and ethnicity balance is not is not good um so there's massive opportunities and and you why not take this opportunity of enthusing a whole pile of people young people but also older people in a in a in a in a in a career that actually is now unbeatable um I'm sure n heard this story before but sue my wife's parents uh uh her father was a bank manager when when we were in our 20s working in a bank was an absolutely sure dunk for the rest of your life you got a career you get you know very cheap mortgage you know job forever working in A bank's nothing like that now the interesting thing about the railway industry and and it's virtually unique now is that actually there is a job if you join at 21 there'll be a job for you for the whole of your working life if you want one if you're prepared to move where you do it what you do uh and and get trained to do it a pensions good you know so everything is there except that somehow it it doesn't look as attractive as it should and somehow there's a that we we don't make as much of the great opportunities you know look at the look at look at um eects on the East Coast Mainline you know a brand new signaling installation you need modern people with technical knowledge to do that and they're just great opportunities so um that's a very long-winded and tedious way of saying stem is absolutely part of this uh I I would like to think at the end of 2025 there's thousands and thousands of young people and not so young people who thought ah there's a career for me in the railway and I'm and and I and I'd like to you you know that's where I'd like to work fantastic and hopefully sorry hopefully we can start that in the schools as well cuz you know my kids are doing stem stuff at school now at an age that we never did so you know getting them infused about this and rail 200 hopefully um absolutely right so and and to to for the avoidance of doubt this is aimed at an audience well beyond either the traditional audience of RA enthusiasts or indeed the the really sadly rather limited audience of people who use the railway this is aimed at people who live in the United Kingdom uh and and you know going to tell them a few things they didn't know about how how useful the railway has been what it's created what it does now and what it can do for them in the future brilliant absolutely right P couldn't agree more but how do we get that across to them um there's it is an exciting place to be but the railway isn't seen like that I mean you've heard me say this many times I still see the potential if somebody just gets act together and gets the money together for a fantastic Seas series of TV ads about working on the railway that's shot like the old RAF and Army Recruitment films used to be um the first 10 minutes of Top Gun was the best recruiting um ad that the American Navy ever had and we've got lots of tech on the railway I can see in my head a whole series of really great ads that if young people saw ma Tech Outlook they my God I never thought of that but there's always this gulf between how we make it happen isn't there so so so look I I think one of the so so the way we're thinking about this is is that I see Railway 200 as an umbrella it's not going to be some centrally organized uh um event or series of events which are imposed on local and Regional people it's an umbrella under which a whole variety of organizations can can create things which are interesting for a much wider audience than we would than we would than we would otherwise get the railway so um so on the Heritage side obviously you'll you'll know now I'm the I'm the new chair of the Heritage Railway Association I don't know how I got that job but I took it on because they asked me there's 200 odd Heritage Railways in Britain they could do with a boost post post covid they can use this as an umbrella to promote themselves and interest people in in in the railway Heritage of their local and Regional area but but quite separate ly you can look at a whole wider group of um of things that we do in Britain local museums uh people like the National Trust um we've got uh we we're in dialogue with people like the National Archives the design Council visit Britain um a National Gallery the BBC to promote the railway in any number of different ways you know I can't I'm not supposed to talk about it but but but the you know the coins in your pocket and the stamps on your on your letters ought to have something to do with it shouldn't they that's what I think yeah um and and by those means you get to a much wider group and Richard mentioned schools and I want you know I'd like to think that every school within with inhaling distance of of of a railway takes this opportunity of explaining to uh the the right group of its kids what the railway's done for their the place that they live and what it what it's doing in in the future you know all that sort of stuff so and and that that's why it's an umbrella because we can't I I can't organize them here I don't want to we don't have the money for it we're we're we're we're we're putting the oil in the wheels to lubricate a whole Exhibition train variety of stuff happening happening around Britain um we are going to do one thing which I'm very keen on indeed which is that we are in active uh preparation for an exhibition train uh to to tour the railway to bring some of the past and the present and the future to places that otherwise wouldn't wouldn't see it uh and that would have historical artifacts from the national rail Museum and Locomotion and other places it would have uh hopefully a whole courage devoted to stuff for kids for to encourage stem activities uh sort wonder wonder lab stuff that we get at the at the rowing Museum and then for everybody a bit bit of an explanation about how what the railway does now and then quite a lot about what it's going to look like in the future um and and and that way I'd like to think that people from if it's not pen literally penan to Wick it would certainly be Penance to I don't know abine and INF finesse and places that wouldn't you wouldn't otherwise get access to a to a museum or or or an institution that can cover that so so we're working hard hard at that um and and really some of this is about a call to action which is not for me to say how you should organize this I got a I got a really interesting actually I didn't get a letter I I read a newspaper column from from uh uh uh the uh the West Cornwall uh weekly local paper from the local MP who said well in our in our area it's travic isn't it you know which is true I suppose it was travic it was a cornishman so I I mentioned it in my speech last week though actually the MP didn't turn up to hear it uh but I've written back to him to say well I mentioned trivic so if you want to curate something about row 200 round travic in red Ruth and cbor Be Our Guest you know somebody can do that locally can't they the local Museum can do that local Authority can do that we can't do it um but that'd be fun wouldn't it that'd be great it absolutely would and you're pushing at an Open Door in many cases Peter you and Mark Khan were on the same train that I was a few years ago by Flying Scotsman um where you arranged for it to go Galloping through Doncaster rather than the Slow line which which it had been book for the power of a phone call from the chairman on Route on the train but what really struck everybody on that train was every bridge every fence was full of people watching and particularly at Newark there's a school alongside the line there yes and the teachers and the teachers had got all the kids out screaming and waving along the fence so it's not as if there is a a sort of hostile audience people love it and genuinely want to be involved so well you say yeah we we know that don't we because that actually you know one of one of the serious reasons why I'm very keen on promoting Heritage rail is because the only time wherever going to get on the front page of a of a of a of a Broad Street newspaper or in the media with a positive mention is when you get flying Scots or tornado out and then they'll print a picture of it so and and and really some of this is to try to counter a bit of the Relentless negativity that you know the raway the raway can always create for lazy journalists um one of the things I would would like to say to you both is that actually this is and also this is not to exclude what's going to go on in Northeast England uh in 2025 the the local and Regional celebrations of the 200 anniversary of the Stockton Darlington Railway are really important for them uh we had a little bit of an industry launch last week as I said which was designed to expose it to a wider industry audience not a not a media audience actually but uh I we got the uh guy from Stockton Council who is uh who is leading the uh the local and Regional celebrations because clearly it's really important that Stockton and Darlington and Chon do celebrate this themselves so this is not designed to detract from that it's designed to give give a context to it which will the rest of the Railway to to to celebrate too and of course they're building a replica Replica 1825 train replica um 1825 train aren't they which I believe has kind of got modern air breakes and all sorts so that that's an EXC that's going to be an exciting event on its own yes I've i' I've I've I've heard that I'm leaving it to our people locally to decide whether whether whether or not you can run this thing on the railway when you should do it and what the result will be but but but yeah you know what what it's really important important for them to celebrate it and indeed actually the northeast of England deserves a lot more tourism than it gets you know one of the things that I know they're thinking about is not day trips to York and Sheldon and Darlington but but trying to create an agenda for people to spend a few days in the northeast of England which is what you want you know n local tourism has been hit by covid so actually you you know there's all sorts of stuff you can do that actually you can walk most of the line of the snd that isn't steel Railway line um you know a guided walk with earphones telling you about Joseph PE peas and and and the how it was built in Stevenson would be a great thing wouldn't it brilliant and they actually built part of the East Coast Main Line certainly the local uh activity I think is very important um just as a a question on that that aspect Peter would you envisage running another cavalcade on the shielding line as happened in 1925 and 75 is that part of the thinking so so I'm not thinking about that because what so principally because I think that I mean I mean those who were well celebrated things but they happened simply over over one weekend the number of people I actually got to is is really very small I I think locally there'll be plenty of stuff to do in Stockton Darlington and shieldon to hold an audience there for for you you know a visit of anything up to a week or longer um I'm sure there will will be something special to be had over the weekend of the of at the end of September um but what I didn't want to do Nigel is to devote a lot of Railway energy to one short thing when actually in my head is is a year in which we can go around and be proud of the place that has been created by the British Railway and to celebrate its National importance now and in the future and of course last time this happened you didn't have Locomotion at shieldon which is a real Focus for local railway activity in any case isn't it but but I've been very clear that I don't want to tell people locally what they should be doing I want to I want to lubricate them being able able to do I mean I you know it'll be a disappointment if on the weekend of the 200th anniversary there isn't something special going on between shieldon Stockton and Darlington which will get on the national news but I don't think that's that's that's half of what this is all about they should make the most of it locally uh they should celebrate the weekend it should be celebration regionally but it should be done nationally you know I in my head at least and uh my people will kill me for it I can see something on every railway station in Britain which which allows you to learn something about the the impact of the Railway locally you know but even if it's only a QR code you know so that if you visit carbis Bay it will tell you about the history of St iest Branch line should tell you it's the last last broad gauge Branch line to be built in Britain uh and it should tell you a bit about what it's done to the community um and and what it what it means now and and that that that's a sort of thing you know brilliant that that's really good Richard well I I just think um it is fantastic and I'm convinced and no Nigel's convinced so we're going to be um plugging this as hard as we can um because I think you're absolutely right Peter two a 200y year bent doesn't come around very often um certainly these events don't so we will be making sure we do our bit um just sort final question if we may um you are of course uh the chair of network rail there are literally thousands of questions um we we could ask uh a great deal to discuss but this was very much about rail 200 um would it be too cheeky to ask at some point you might um be happy to come back on the show and maybe chat about some of the other issues facing the railway I know that would be an an enormous ly popular feature if you could yeah no of course I will I mean I mean I think so two things to say one of which is actually we sort of did the launch of this for the industry because because when people say what does this mean I don't it can't be me who answers that on my own I want I want people in in all walks of life up and down the country to say you know we had a chat from the National Gallery there last week you know they've got endless uh lovely paintings uh in of the Victorian you know rain Steam and speed we were actually discussing admittedly after a lot of alcohol whether we could display Turner's rain Steam and speed on Paddington Station the original wouldn't that be brilliant AB you know wouldn't that be fantastic to it so so the there there's the so so we've done a sort of launch to people ought to be thinking about this this broadcast is the first sort of media thing that we've done really um which I'm I'm very pleased with in a way it's bit unexpected to suddenly do it on a Monday morning but hey that's good um so so so so that's good on the wider stuff well look actually here's the here's the truth the railway is is is now in the in in in unprecedented uh Uncharted uncertain Uncharted times on the railway times isn't it it it really is and um so Railway 200 has a bit of a resonance for this which is that actually celebrate in the permanence of the Railway and and its continuing contribution to National Life is an even better thing to do when things feel a bit uncertain and and and I've got a bit of a message which is actually there always been there before if you think of every National Cris you know the first world war the second world war the growth of the car uh the growth of of car ownership beaching all all of the you know yeah you know and and and more recently covid the railways live through all of that and despite the fact that we all go around saying oh my God it you know it was better than the old days actually well a usually it wasn't when you think about it hard and B we've got to look forward and and make something of the future but I see I see Railway 200 as as bringing back a bit of Pride and a bit of and and a little bit of certainty in an uncertain world because actually you know whether you like it or not the the the Investments that have been made in the infrastructure and the and the trains all last for far longer than any political uh cycle uh and the railway will be with us and it was there when I was born it'll be there after I die and in the meantime we'd better look after it and make the best of it and remind people why the railway is so important it isn't just how it works how it works is bloody complex and it could work better than it does but what it does is essential isn't it you know yeah it's absolutely essential and and you know you couldn't have Modern Life without without mass transit that's the point here here and that's absolutely spot on and to remind ourselves that we invented the railway and the railway created the modern world is is a big statement which everybody needs to be reminded of we take it all a bit for granted don't we we we we we absolutely do you know but it's really interesting isn't it all of the current political uncertainty actually the one thing that the one thing that is ceaseless is the demands from politicians of all colors to invest more in better connectivity Investing in connectivity it's really interesting isn't it whatever you think of the cancellation of parts of hs2 the fact that the that that that the the the current government felt obliged to commit itself to resending all that money is really interesting because there'd be a lot of other things that you just said oh well we saved the money that will be lower taxes but you can't do it with this because people are demanding all the time but better connectivity you know you look at the Resto doing your Railway stuff I mean I went through uh Department asked me to sit and go through all of the bids there were well over a hundred bids there there were there were there were people literally begging to have the railway connection that they that their town city or Village used to have because they know what it does to be on the railway map look at Oak Campton you know just go there go there for the day and look at what's happening in Oak Campton suddenly this sleepy uh devont town which is by passed by the a30 in the railway shot suddenly there's house building all over the place the place is full of tourists you know they they they knew that that's what they wanted and they've got it and that and that's the power of being connected to the railway and and it's a very you know from that point of view it's very positive isn't it and actually it even behind me in watero despite all of the postco Gloom and the uh downturn in business traffic actually we just got a new pub we've got a new new uh Mars and spenc is refitted their store and the reason they've done it is because our station's full of people going places you know which is good for the economy and good for society and at the other end of the extreme look at the Elizabeth line and all the controversy for that for years now it's barely been open it's Britain's busiest Railway and nobody can figurate how the heck we manage bit without it which is always the same with anything is it Jubilee line extension borders Oak Hampton oh absolutely Ed Edinburgh trams wherever you put flange wheels of any kind back um within months it's done its first year figures and um we all wondered how we ever manag without it yeah well I'm I was this time last week I was with Hugh marman at Stratford uh in East London because actually the consequence of uh of the Olympics the consequence of all the development there the housing the jobs which have been created now the Elizabeth line and guess what that station is full of people and is really under considerable pressure and needs some investment wow that's a story you know when I build it and they will come yeah when I was a when I was you know 50 years ago when I was a young man I I I've stood on the platform at Stratford low level going to North will a place I there's nobody there it's complete dumb now it's heaving with people we've created a huge amount of extra economic activity through better connectivity that's what that's what the railway is about that's what that's a good reason for getting up and keeping positive isn't it it it is it's certainly a good reason for rail 200 so look well done what you're doing Peter I know you're typically sort of self aing about it but I know you've played a huge personal role in creating the whole momentum for for rail 200 so well done for that um I hope you'll come back and update us from time to time on on what's Happening um and we'll certainly be in touch about arranging a date to talk about the bigger Railway in its own right um fairly soon I think you can count on yeah yeah well I i' I've just been preparing for something I'm going to speak out I was writing it last night admittedly after several glasses of wine and it comes to quite something when the most stable thing in the railway firmament is Network rails 5ye cp7 settlement isn't it yeah you know it is actually um uh uh so we've got to do better than that but actually you know uh let I'll come back and talk about that let's let's see what the right time to do that is and what an and what an uplifting conversation pet Peter absolutely thank you absolutely thanks so much for joining us Peter and especially as it was a a pretty short notice um we are extremely grateful and I am sure people will find it as fascinating as we have and as inspiring as we have yes yes yes you you always make me feel better Peter when you and I have talked about train usually usually that's unusual for a Monday but no I you know it's genuinely uplifting this stuff isn't it from from the day-to-day difficulties of all the things we do you have to stand back and say say what is what's the railway for what does it deliver and without it we w we wouldn't we would be a lot poorer yeah both both both both in money and and and in in in in wider things and intrinsically people just like trains and Railways don't they it's the only form of Transport we'll stand on a bridge and wave at you don't wave at buses or lorries or cars yeah people do wave at buses depends which one which one which one you're driving but uh excellent yeah great stuff Peter thank you so much thanks every so much for joining us Peter we are really really grateful and uh have a good rest of the day thank you cheers thank you thanks Peter bye-bye well what about that great thinking as usual from uh from Peter Closing remarks there and uh thanks to Lord hendy for joining us today in a very very busy diary we are really grateful we appreciate your kindness in finding time to talk to us and you can be assured Peter that here at Green signals will be doing whatever we can to help out with rail 200 and we hope to see you back here soon I I hope we do because he he he kind of promised didn't he and there's so much more we can talk to him about absolutely absolutely in fact maybe you up to have a regular slot in each program I don't know we've launched anyway some news from us we've launched some exciting new content over the past week or so as well as the regular full episodes on YouTube you can also find a growing number of YouTube shorts um which are not clothing they're little clips of some of the best moments from each episode that step's uploaded so you can find them easily and share them with your friends if you like where we've done explanations in the programs for some complex stuff um we've created a little playlist for those on YouTube as well so you can easily find things like Richard's expert one might even say aidite um and Lucid explan explanation and that's the most sunshine I'm firing in your direction today that's the whole year Luci Lucid explanation of what a select committee is um or Andrew mcnorton explaining what causes cost escalation on projects and that is really good yeah so we'll keep building up a little Bank of those um those little explainers so do keep checking back to see what there is there on our YouTube channel we've also launched some new content on our blog it was really strange for me after 28 years or so of writing comment pieces every 10 working days um to pack that up at the end of September not to be writing anything so when the urge resurfaced as it did um I wrote an opinion piece on why hs2 phase 2A must be saved having got that off my chest you can find it on greens signal.org well we will be posting some more the world according to pieces from number of top writers in addition to my own humble ramblings and we now have a digital newsletter big news so if you'd like some exclusive content from us You' might like to know when we publish anything new or all sorts of stuff go to Greens signal.org and sign up for the new newsletter you're going to like it um we've got lots of exciting ideas so you don't want to miss out I promise you that and that's about it for now don't forget to like subscribe follow on your chosen podcast platform we really do appreciate it uh and please keep the comments coming we we always enjoy them and you had a comment about the comments Richard didn't you that we're a bit overwhelmed at the oh we were a bit uh but they're but they're brilliant um they're really positive some some good challenges um some great questions and an awful lot of them so apologies if we've not got back to absolutely everyone immediately medely I was doing a load of YouTube ones last night um but they're brilliant so yes please keep them coming and some great ideas for shows as well I've got to say so they they're also much appreciated that's right and I'm sure we all have this problem ourselves personally that you think which channel was That on was it an email was it an SMS was it a Twitter DM was it on YouTube but please keep them coming and we will reply to you we we we like the chitchat and we'll always quote a few of them at the head of each program um here's one more last bit of news we've got a Christmas special coming yes Christmas is on its way right um and we're going to do a bit of a Q&A um so any questions you've got send them in you can ask us questions on anything and I do say that with some trepidation um but ask us what you like and we'll see what we can come up with as an answer and we will answer those live we will on air looking straight at the camera as I'm doing now so do get your questions in but bye for now we'll see you next Wednesday and Richard and I will will return to talk about I know not what yet but it'd be good bye-bye [Music] bye-bye [Music] n