Mary McCormack and Melissa Fitzgerald

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people that are on the show The Great pullets and Prize winners all the smartest people who come and share their stories at the chrisos show make sure you go to goodreads.com foress chrisos linkedin.com foress chrisos and all those crazy places on the internet they are the authors of the newest book to come out August 13 2024 called what's next a backstage pass to the westwing it's cast and crew and it's enduring Legacy of service Melissa Fitzgerald and Mary McCormack joins us on the show they're going to be talking about their wonderful book that's come out for a delightful series that people I think really loved and probably would like to see some of that built into our politics and everything else uh Mary McCormick is an American actress she has had leading roles as Justine Appleton on the series murder one and as Deputy National Security adviser Kate Harper on The West Wing as Deputy US Marshal Mary Shannon on inlan sight and is Peggy on the comedy series the kids are all right Melissa Fitzgerald is an American actress and senior director of the nonprofit organization Justice for vets as an actress she may be best known for portraying Carol Fitzpatrick on The West Wing welcome to show ladies how are you good thank you for having us thanks for coming we really appreciate it uh and give us do coms where do you want people to find you guys on the interwebs get to know you better um Mary C McCormack on Instagram and I'm mafy Fitz M ffy fi TZ on inst and Twitter there you go so uh thanks for coming on the show ladies uh give us a 30,000 overview of uh your new book I'll give each of you a shot at that you want to jump in mafy sure well it's called what's next a backstage P to The West Wing it's cast and crew and its enduring Legacy of service and that really describes it well it's a behind the scenes look at the westwing it is you know written obviously by two insiders we interviewed over a hundred people for this you know for this book including cast crew writers directors producers and also people who were inspired by the show so it is that but it's also uh shines a light on the issues and causes that we all care about and that we feel has sustained our friendships for these 25 long years we come together to support each other's uh you know issues and causes and Mary you know has been the greatest champion of my issue and cause uh at all rise so I'm super grateful to her for all of that too awesome Mary yes 30,000 words what what is your overview of the book in your opinion I mean look when Melissa was appro Melissa was approach she lives in DC now and has a real job she's like an adult and she was approached by a friend of a friend to write a book about the West W wing and she said I have a tiny part on the westling I'm not writing a behind the scenes book and then she told me about it and I said well I came you know so late to the party I can't write that that's not my book to write either and then we were talking about why we're all still so close and we are we're like on a text chain we really are like a family it's unusual and I've done a lot of TV shows and it never happens but we were discussing that and we sort of came to the fact that like it's really about mostly about service that we just keep each other we we're always sort of rallying around each other's causes um and so we thought well what if we did the westwing book for Wing nuts like a hardcore fan book um is that what they call the fans Wing nuts oh yeah Wing nuts and they call themselves that proudly hardcore Wing nuts are are proud of the term but we thought we if we if we could honor the wing nuts with a really Insider juicy fun fan book but do it through the lens of service and the legacy of service that the show sort of has that felt or IC to us because Melissa and I are always sending out the bat signal to the rest of the text chain and making people show up at stuff there you go now when you say the term service what do you mean specifically well anything I mean really in in you know when you do a show like the westwing you're blessed with um a lot of requests to to to to show up for things and make the world a teeny bit better and it's and it's a real privilege I I know that Brad told us a story that when Anthony Edwards who's a one wonderful actor was on are and he said to Brad after the pilot he said you're about to you know get a lot of capital and you can either spend it on yourself or you can spend it on other people and it was just something um that Brad took really seriously and I think you know it is an honor to be to do what we love to do anyway and then to get to sort of show up for people and and help houses that we care about is a real privilege and a responsibility and and um one we feel grateful for and also it was a show about public public service so it's about people who have dedicated their lives to making our country better people who work in government doing the most good for the most people and for us you know we wanted to honor that and also honor the service that we all do and shine a light on our issues and causes and certainly our readers and the fans of The West Wing we're not trying to teach anybody about service or anything like that they're already doing it but we hope that maybe they'll be introduced to an organization or two that they didn't know they'll probably know most of them but perhaps they won't or they'll be inspired to get involved and you know that we light up our text chain which is where we started with our interviews on the book which is our text chain of of friends but when we are interacting with each other those messages really are about I need someone to show up for this organization's fundraiser or this conference and you know I did start at Justice for vets I left La in Hollywood to to Champion veterans treatment reports which are alternatives to incarceration for veterans who are struggling with the transition home and now I'm at the same organization which is the parent organization called All Rise and we uh you know we promote an advanced justice system reform for individuals across the board who have been uh you know involved in the justice system because of substance use Mental Health disorders and we promote treatment and Recovery support instead of incarceration and this cast has showed up for me and for that issue from day one and I've been doing it for 10 years and they've never stopped and Mary showed up this year again at our conference to help so that's really to get behind the work that Melissa's doing I mean um it's incredibly moving work and it works so it's like it's it's the future I think of Justice Reform for sure we're Lu there you go so it's been around it was it was around for Seven Seasons uh Aaron sorin was a cre for it he wrote your guys' forward in the book so you've got that uh 1999 to 2006 what do you feel makes it so enduring why do why are the these Wing nuts so committed to it do you think do you guys hold conventions yet have you reached that Star Trek level oh we should do that that'd be really fun for us Mary yeah that's a really good idea I mean Aon Aaron called it a love letter to public service but it's also and he but he he has also said to tons of reporters it was just an hour week where we were telling great stories and I think you know it's look you can't sort of talk about why the westwing endures without addressing Aaron sorin's dumb Talent you know I mean he's just so so skilled um as a writer that it's it's you he could sort of write about anything and you're GNA want to watch it but I think it's also like Melissa said I do think there is something you know political shows never worked before the westwing um but I do think there's something you know obviously it's aspirational it's optimistic it's not cynical and I think that's really nice for people I think I think especially now in the world we're living in now there is something about because I meet young people all the time so does Melissa who are watching it who are finding it and loving it and so it endures and I think it is about that I think it's about it's nice to feel aspirational and and hopeful about um our politicians and politics in general and it's a blueprint I mean it is a blueprint you and and it and it shows you know I certainly living here in Washington DC I've met a lot of people who work in government and and they are there for the right reasons they are there to be the most good for the most people and they work incredibly hard and they believe in making our country better and lifting up those who are struggling and I think showing that every week what is a real gift to all of us and and you know a lot of people said it was a civics and obviously had to be great television first as Mary said in order to to have people watch it yeah it's like a tonic it's like an anote you know to despair there you go we've got a lot of Despair in real world politics right now so I think yeah I think people really engender to that where they're just like this is how things should be maybe I I think so there we go maybe we can get Mar Sheen to run for president has he run for president before maybe he's talked about it I don't know but people might elect him I don't know you never know TV stars ronaldy remarkable man yeah I mean he's got those he's got those blue eyes that just just Pierce you um Heart for Service like nobody we've ever known he really his marched towards social justice has inspired all of us and we love him with our whole Hearts he is just a remarkable man and we in the in what's next Mary and I had a whole chapter on just Martin and you know Mary always says that on a call sheet number one Martin was number one uh as number one goes so goes the show and our number one was the number one of number ones and that's the name of the chapter and really we did that because when we interviewed people everyone had such glowing things to say about Martin that we needed to have a whole chapter there you go well he was a star of the show so that does help and you guys as well uh so tell us a little bit people like to know about our author's histories how they grew up uh tell us a little about uh how you both grow up uh your influences what got you into acting and uh down the road and and maybe what got you on the set of westwing what was was there any sort of interesting scenarios that you know you you bumped into somebody and all of a sudden you know you're getting a gig for The West Wing well I'm from New Jersey um um I um am one of three kids I grew up sort of like 25 minutes 20 minutes from New York and I think so I could see a Broadway play once a year for my birthday and I think that was just enough for me to go hang on a minute maybe I could those are adults so I think that was sort of what planted the seed for me and um yeah so I just grew up acting for fun and then um moved to New York and started acting you know as a job um as far as the westwing I I was doing another political show called K Street with Steven Soderberg and George Clooney little weird sort of improvisational show that HBO did for a season and um got a call from John Wells who produces westwing and he was said would you come join I think at that time he said would you join ER and I couldn't because I was doing K Street and then when I finished K Street he said would you join the westwing and I was like oh my God I was such a massive fan so for me that was uh you know an amazing phone call to get so that's how I that's how I did that and here you are all these years lat here I am a million and a half years later yeah only 25 Mary not even 25 but it's hard to believe that Mary wasn't part of it from the very beginning because I can't imagine a time when she wasn't in our group it just is it's unfathomable to me but anyway so Melissa about your uppr um I grew up in Philadelphia and I didn't know anyone who was a professional actor growing up um and I just always wanted to do it and I my my mom and grandmother took me to plays when I was little in Philadelphia like summer stock type things and I remember when I decided to become an actor instead of a lawyer uh my my parents were just you know we want you to go to law school and I said well you shouldn't have taken me to all those plays but it was really fun one time Martin we had table readings for the new scripts for the new episodes which were incredible everybody came the whole cast came they were really an event and um my parents came to town to Los Angeles and I was allowed to bring them to a table read and afterwards Martin went up to them and he said so how' you like it and they you know were in awe of it they said it was incredible and he said I'm so glad you had a good time he goes aren't you glad she didn't go to law school I felt like Oh Martin I gotta give you five bucks now but you know service was always part of our family my dad was a judge my mom worked for a nonprofit and same with Mary's upbringing and that is something that has bonded Mary and me and I think you know really sustained us through the five years of writing this book almost five years it took us to write this book but um you know I think my family did want me to be a lawyer and I I had other other plans so I moved to New York after college and went to drama school and you know from there um I think Aaron soring came and saw me in a play in New York and and again in in LA and and I eventually got an audition for westwing because I was very focused on being even a teeny tiny part of that show because when I read the pilot I never read anything like it and I felt that it would have social relevance and it would be an important show and a great show um so and I did have a small part and I was very I'm still grateful for that there you go now I'm seeing a uh West ring reunion that you guys did in 2012 there was a few different behind the scenes and and uh reunion stuff there was a westwing special to benefit when we all vote you ladies have been in dozens of uh credits as actresses you know doing producers and other things um why do you you you alerted to this earlier that you that it out of all the shows that you've appeared on and and done uh that this one seems to be the enduring one where the cast sticks together is there any sort of I mean any sort of more magic that that causes that was it was it just the length of the show that ran or or what what do you think the magic SAU is well Mary's done a lot more TV shows than I have so I'm going to let her feel this one first I mean I I think the look it's probably a cocktail of things is the answer I do think the length of the show helps you know because you sort of really really grow up together and spend so many important life moments together we didn't have cell phones back then so I think there's a weird I think there's a lot of stuff I think that's actually sounds funny but it's true like we sat on set and talked you know we and your relationships deepen and um I think that was a contributing factor but I do think and it's a great group of people that's a contributing factor they're just like nice people to be around and smart and involved and funny um but I think mostly it's the service because you know life gets so busy everyone's got kids and jobs and parents and you know stuff and and our text chain is always sort of lighting up you know and and sometimes it's just making fun of Josh Molina or wishing someone a happy birthday but often it's hey I need three people to show up for this or I need a co-host for a benefit or I need you know and or we or we need everyone to show up for this and so so at least a few times a year or more probably a lot more we're all getting together um and if even if it's just for um you know to support each other's organization or or event launch launch we have fun together and I think you know you have to friends to sort of let the relationships continue and now we've just been at it for so long really close like now we're really like a family I also think Martin Sheen and John Spencer made a real um a conscious choice they were the parents on the show and they modeled you know professionalism and kindness and excellence and preparation on that set and then Martin modeled really that March towards social justice and service and he included all of us in that and there was a kindness on that set people were were treated with with dignity and respect no matter what their role was and I I you know Mary and I talked about this a lot I do think that was that laid the groundwork for this friendship also it's true as number one goes so goes the show and because Martin and John were not spoiled you know they were grateful they were old theater actors you know they were they knew what they had they were like this is yeah doesn't get better than this so because that and I think that was true for most of the casts or almost well really all the casts they were really from the theater and they knew how they knew how good they had it you know and so it makes for a nicer day at work and Martin said to me one time we were driving down to the Institute of Peace and he had picked me up and he said you know I never went to college but my friends who've gone to college always say that those were the best years of their lives they just wish they had appreciated it back then and then he said the westwing those were the best years of our lives but we did appreciate it and I think that's true there you go uh so one of the things you guys talk about in the book is you give a case for competent empathetic leadership hope and optimism do you do you do you think that those are the things that people really find appealing in the show wanting empathetic leadership maybe out of their politicians uh more hope more optimism you kind of see what's going on with regardless of where you stand on the political front you can kind of see there's a lot of joy and happiness behind uh what's going on with the Harris campaign in fact there's a lot of Joy seems to be the key word yeah I think everyone's tired they're just tired and sick of being sick and angry and um Charles blow called it yesterday I read something he called it a radical insistence on Joy best phrase ever and it is it's like between her joy and his big dad energy there what's next and I'm so here for it it's like people are tired they just no one wants to make fun of disabled people and support sexual ass all bragging and think people are good and we want to help our neighbors we want to lift up we don't want to punch down we want to lift up and we want that in our leaders and I think we want our leaders to ask us to be better not to ask us to blame somebody else to ask us you know to to to love the country to have joy in the country and also to love our country enough to ask her to be better and ask all of us to be better and lift her up too um and I'm seeing that you know and I are seeing that and feeling it and it really is so exciting that our book kind of is meeting this moment right now and dumb luck because we were really supposed to have it done a year ago but we're more more Mary just take just take credit just take credit for it all yeah we planned it all this way to hear from the fanss too who are just really excited about the book who are fired up about it and people who've loved the show who are buying the book and and just voraciously reading it but but also what's been fun is people who are reading it as a family and maybe one member of the family hasn't watched the show yet and is starting to watch the show and people are giving it to friends who are saying gosh I never watched the show but now I am and that's a really fun thing to see there you go and see it's endurance and uh people love it and you know you get the politicians you deserve you get the government you deserve you know people show up to vote and uh if you don't vote well if you choose poorly you're going to get a poor government so you know people people I think I think people are waking up I think people are saying hey enough with the ugliness enough of telling us we're horrible people or America is bad I think I think we're just kind of over that I think so had enough yeah I think after almost 10 years we've kind of gotten tired of the you know if anybody remembers Trump's uh inaugural speech with the uh it was just even George W bush is like well that was a [ __ ] show yeah no totally it was Madness I forget what it was but it was it was really dark dark and it was like America sucks and you're like no it doesn't really it's actually not that bad there room to improve but that doesn't have to be negative that's a positive that's a gift because we get to do that together yeah and we get to and we don't have to we get to and I think that we're feeling that now that energy and that's inspiring yeah young people are showing up for the first time ever they're fired up women are fired up oh yeah it's an interesting moment yeah it's going to be it's going to be an interesting uh the next couple months I can't believe exciting I it's an exciting times yeah I mean you you wouldn't have ever called it where like okay well the incumbent has got a not resigned but no you didn't no one had their bingo card for sure this is nuts yeah and so you know what is the old Chinese curse May live in interesting times we are pretty wild to see history unfold although I don't know I I kind of would like to go back to the boring where where I know I'm gonna have a democracy every four years right no this is this is an excitement I could do without frankly yeah we we don't really need to do this again living on the edge but hopefully it's the end of an era and it's an Awakening of the American Spirit where we we all kind of realize that hey you know we're all Americans the political conversations I have now I make everyone agree that we have to talk to each other as Americans and not as part parties that really changes the context of the conversations that people are having now and you keep guiding people whoa whoa whoa whoa let's not go Republican versus we're all Americans here this is all of our this is all of our choice and we're all in this together and it's a big boat but uh and we're not going to just going to agree but we do have to meet in the middle sometimes and we do have to find a way and I think people maybe got that from The West Wing and and how it operated and and gave an example of how you can be better and also how disagreement is not a bad thing all the time you can really grow from that and come up with a better solution I mean Mary and I when we were writing what's next we found that to be true sometimes you know Mary would have a really strong opinion about something and I would disagree and sometimes I'd say you know what she feels stronger than I do and vice versa but sometimes we both feel strongly about something so we'd really have to work together and most of those times we came up with a better solution than either of us had separately and that I think is an example that we can all kind of apply across the board that's a powerful message we when we work together and we lift each other up you know we don't work off of scarcity we work off of abundance that that's the greatness of America yeah it's just hard now because I mean Erin cirin did a one of our so kind showed up at one of our in Los Angeles and spoke about and I think the Press picked it up about how the the thing that couldn't happen why the westwing couldn't exist right now is that Republicans were rational in the show and you know that there was this sort of checks and balances and compromise and and that now you know like I mean you know Trump telling everyone in Congress to vote against the the the bipartisan immigration yeah proposal is a perfect example of like what are we doing yeah they gave him everything they it was it was like the it was the Christmas gift to the Republicans of everything they wanted in Immigration to me that's like the example of just how how mad it has all become and how sad because it's really like that's not about Americans that's not about the immigrants that's not about safety that's not about anything except scorekeeping and cruelty yeah well they didn't have abortion on the on the ticket uh if you I mean study what's going on with abortion and and what it was about I mean in the s uh Betsy D's fathers uh figured out how to do the southern strategy uh with Nixon and basically they tested everything that would get out the vote for Republicans there was only one thing that would work and that was abortion uh and so that's why for 40 50 years Republicans banged on the drum but they never thought that the car would catch the the dog would catch the car oh and so they used it to get out the vote well they needed to do that with immigration and I it's amazing to me when people aren't just aware of the game that's being played on that where they they didn't have abortion to get out the vote so now they're using immigration No in fact abortion is backfiring they flipped the script because now women are showing up in ways that they never would I mean women are pissed yeah it doesn't help if you call them all cat ladies a dog lady but yeah I'm a dog guy so I I I know I'm a single dog lady but single proud single dog lady there you go there you go never piss off the uh animal group no no never so what's the future of uh what you two are up to is there maybe another book coming up is there maybe a way we can get westwing 2 out as let's finish this one let's promote this one first everybody would have been a lot longer it's a long book it's a big book it's we planed to write but we just kept interviewing people and getting all these amazing behindth scenes stories and photos and there is a lot more Mary thought really hard to get the second set of photos in there because they're from our personal photos so we had to drive around scan like the hard copy photos from back in the day cell phones yeah yeah but um but we we were always joke about this because we had to cut several hundred Pages out of the book and it was hard to do because they were really good stories so we do couple hundred pages that are ready to go so we could call that book this one's what's next we could call that one what's left see that next year yeah there you go and I I I didn't even know there were people called weuts so I think you guys have a convention in your future 100% you guys are GNA Go Star Trek it might be kind of weird because people would dress up like you on the show and then appear for signatures and you're like love to see it and also what was fun is Martin called us like uh a few weeks ago after he' read the book we sent him the book and um and he said there's so much in here I didn't know and I was there I was there I was on the there you go uh any future uh movies film TV plugs you guys want to put out on anything I did a movie recently called vicious it's not out yet I'm not sure when it comes out soon it's a horror movie and it's really creepy got the right title for it yeah yeah it's exciting other fabulous actors and I'm just G back at my desk um doing justice system reform and there you go at allrise so yeah and I know I you know Mary will be right by my side because she always has been so well maybe you can use the book to Lobby uh Aaron sorcin to Doh westwing 2 yes he's been he he just keeps going I just need an idea might be a movie might be time for a movie sometimes that's good idea sometimes they go from TV to movie really well yeah you know Richard shiff had an idea the other night of doing um sort of more uh local uh people working in local elections so yeah maybe we can maybe we can put on Disney icecapades that's a funny idea I want to see Martin Sheen skate to see that I've been a fan of his since Apocalypse Now I would I would uh I would pay to see that let him know we'd pay to see him on skates okay we'll tell him he seems like he's l man and just see he's the lovest and he's a real clown he would probably do that yeah he'd probably be really happy about it he's the best man as you can see in our dedication in the front of what's next we dedicated to him and to Aaron cin and of course our parents but um we love him so much he really is as good as you think and better maybe that's the meme that America needs we need to see we need to see him maybe in his character on the show ice skating in in Tights uh the escapades I think I think that's the I think that's the meme the meme that America needs right now anyway I don't know about all that he's probably like ice skates what do you want me to do break a leg we went we went to the White House last week with Martin which was really amazing yeah we got to we delivered the book to the president first lady and then we walked the president with Martin we walked the president out to Marine one oh there you go and and Martin saled the president and the President saluted Martin back and that was a very emotional moment it was incredible and before we before we went outside I heard the president say to Martin he goes he said you didn't tell me how hard this job was and Martin goes I didn't know I was a TV president TV president the acting president went home in the evening there you go but uh that's awesome that must have been really fun they do the thrill of a lifetime really wasn't it yes and to be able to thank you know the president for what he's done yes it was a thrill well I'm hoping you get to go back and do it with a gal so let's put that do we we need more positivity and America needs the just help recognize it's that it's a great nation we're all so blessed to live here oh yeah I mean it's it's one thing a lot of people forget and take for granted we have so much freedoms you know a lot of people comment on Facebook we don't have any more freedom I'm like you can vote still the luckiest freest people on the globe yeah we're so lucky that we get to make the country what we want it to be and we just have to participate that's the thing yep there you go and you have to participate and vote register to vote people there you go get out the vote uh so thank you very much ladies for coming on give us your Dooms where can people find you on the interwebs I am Mary C McCormick uh on Instagram and I'm at mafy Fitz on Instagram there you go where is where is the Massie Fitz is it just short for I call her Mass her niame is tells me ever is mafy Fitz it's my my initials are MF meliss and Fitzgerald and then I got a nickname of Mafi mafes mafy Fitz so well the name fits uh so there you go thank you for coming on thanks to honest for tuning in order of the book wherever fine books are sold it's out August 3rd 2024 it's called what's next a backstage pass to the westwing it's cast and crew and it's enduring Legacy of service out now and hopefully it'll Inspire us to all be better Americans to work together as human beings and try and get along can we all just get along people that's all one thing though the critical thing Mary what we did the New York Times bestseller list yesterday oh congratulations that's right they just sent us a note congratulations ladies the best thank you it was very exciting thank you to all the fans the wing there you go get her in sorin to come up with westwing too I think we need all right we're on it we need that you can put a female present in there now evidently so you know we can do that so there you go uh go to goodread folks.com linkedin.com for chess chrisos all this crazy places in the Internet thanks for tuning in be good to each other stay safe we'll see you guys next time