Can Uncommitted Voters force Kamala Harris to defund Israel? | Abbas Alawieh | The Big Picture S5E4

I am interested in the long-term project of taking power from taking power from the people within the Democratic party who are proar and wielding it in the in the service of people who are anti-war I'm very acutely aware of just how badly the proar side wants to make sure that someone like me and people like me and organizers like those organizing uncommitted can be nowhere near those rooms where the decisions are being made and our message to them is we're not going anywhere will kamla Harris defeat Donald Trump in November and can't she do it without resolving the war in Gazza well that could come down to a bunch of key swing States including Michigan home to 150,000 Arab American voters voters who are outraged by kamla Harris's continued commitment to arming Israel's war but this is a community that has never really had political influence in Washington that is until today welcome to the big picture my name is Muhammad Hassan and we are joined by the founder of the uncommitted national movement abas alya alaa may come from an activist background but he's also a political Insider in 2021 he became chief of staff for Missouri congresswoman Corey Bush but after October 7 he helped start a movement to withhold a vote for Joe Biden at the Democratic Primary in Michigan over his stance on Gaza that resulted in over 100,000 people voting un committed on their ballot papers and that started a national movement and aloya became a delegate representing the movement traveling to Chicago in August for the Democratic National Convention hoping to get the attention of the new candidate kamla Harris but what they thought would be a space for the Palestinian issue to be heard instead became a hostile environment where they were accused by other Democrats of sewing Division and helping Trump get closer to power then a week later Comm Harris made her stance on Israel Crystal Clear let me be very clear I am unequivocal and and unwavering in my commitment to Israel's defense and its ability to defend itself and that's not going to change but no change in policy in terms of arms and and so forth no I we have to get a deal done in 2016 Trump became president partly by overturning States like Michigan where he beat Hillary Clinton by a margin of just 10,000 votes for 4 years later Biden defeated him in Michigan by 154,000 votes that means for both candidates securing the arab-american vote could be crucial but that relies on this community being able to vote as a block and recognizing the influence that they can have so will they do it or will they continue to be [Music] ignored I best Alia thank you very much for being being with us today welcome to the big picture thank you so much so glad to be here so I want to begin by asking you about your career in politics you're somebody that's not new to the political Arena you're not new to the Democrats as well what brought you into politics in the beginning so I uh you know grew up as a as a kid in this country you immigrated from from lebnan when I was six um and my entire life my dad would take my sister and I um to political event after political event mostly local Poli I taking us to the polls making sure that we stayed engaged talked about the importance of voting but um I never really felt like I could engage uh in National politics in particular specifically because you know again I was an immigrant kid we came here when I was six and I had a dream of going back and living with my grandmother who lives in South Lebanon still and my grandmother would always tell me I want you to come back and live with me I want you to come back and live with me and to me even though I was super interested in National politics I was an activist on U my college campus for Palestine and and other issues I always felt like getting involved in National politics was sort of admitting that maybe I couldn't go back and live with my grandmother then after Trump got elected well after he got elected maybe sometime in 2017 uh my grandmother called me and she said AB best I'm watching this orange guy on my TV doing saying all kinds of really ridiculous things sounds like they need help over there in America you should probably just stay there and do politics there I know your family's always been engaged in politics you should do that and so um to me it was like a permission that she gave my six-year-old self to just be there and engage in the ways that you can and and that coincided with an opportunity to meet someone who was running for congress his name was Andy Levan um and he was running on a progressive policy agenda that I resonated with health care for everyone um um you know uh housing Justice uh um uh protecting unions and the right to organize these were all things that I I deeply cared about and so that's actually how I got involved in National politics was volunteering on a Michigan Congressional Campaign and when the candidate won I joined the same day that uh congresswoman Rashida Talib and congresswoman um uh Ayanna Presley and Congressman Okio Cortez had and Congressman Omar had their first day in the United States Congress that was my first day but I was a congressional staffer um trying to figure out uh how the heck they let me in there and how I could make the most of my time there yeah and in that answer you know I something that I resonate with as well the idea of being an immigrant when I was a when I was a kid um I moved from Egypt to New Zealand and there was always this thing inside me that you know I I needed to go back I belonged in Egypt and it took me a while to kind of figure out that no I actually had a sense of belonging to the country that I'd migrated to but also a sense of responsibility I'm wondering once you actually got into politics once you saw that other side of the coin how did that make you feel about being an American so I mean I I went into uh you know was the 116th United States Congress and I was wide-eyed and was so excited to learn everything that I could about how the process worked and very clearly I um came to learn a couple of things one thing that I knew for sure that an institution like the United States Congress and our institutions of government here in the United States in particular is an institution that is capable of enormous good enormous good I mean you know helping people um make ends meet helping people um who have are are facing catastrophe Financial or medical or otherwise um there is enormous good that comes from the United States Congress that was clear to me uh before going into uh uh work there um and it was clear to me you know as I was meeting people working on how to make health care or education more affordable Etc what was also clear to me was this you know very big contradiction that I felt because every once in a a while and it wasn't just every once in a while it happened actually very often uh there would be these bills for sending more money to the Israeli military in particular and every year there would be the bills for sending more money to the US military or giving us more money to the US military um and you know it was always not just like a little bit more money but a whole lot more money the US military would often request U you know through the you know they would they would make a request of Congress of hey this is how much money we would like and um Congress would respond and say no we're going to give you more money than you even asked for and so it was this strange experience for me as both an Arab and and an American um to go to work in a place that unfortunately and this is the unfortunate reality makes policy out of harming and and in some cases killing people like me and that was a very difficult reality to sit with because um I know this place a place capable of great good um but also as a place with very clearly white supremacist Roots I mean you know the United States capital building itself was built by uh enslaved black people in in this country right and so um I know that the uh the history of this place as a place that's capable of doing a lot of harm um was was was clear and I I ran into that um as someone who was um you know just pointing out what was clear to me that hey uh it seems like a lot of leaders in our party and our government uh support the policy that means that a bunch of people that I care about my my own family members uh uh end up being on the receiving end of Us weapons dropping is can we change that policy and frequently I would run into you know this contradiction of no that's the policy as it stands in the United States government that's supported by both the Republican party and the Democratic party unfortunately not everyone in the Democratic Party unfortunately virtually everyone in the Republican party I mean you know in terms of its federal leaders here we are in 2024 not a single federal elected official on the Republican side has come out for a ceasefire um let alone any other you know stopping of the weapons thankfully we have a lot of leaders in the Democratic party that have but that's thanks to our movement and our our growing movement and so yeah it was hard it felt really really hard and it continues to feel hard and you came in as you mentioned um with this Progressive wave that had come in you know off the back of Bernie Sanders and you suddenly for the first time in American politics you had voices in Congress that were talking about Palestine and black lives matter and and police brutality and all of these issues that were being heard for the very first time was there a feeling inside of Congress inside the Democratic party that the kind of change that you had been fighting for that you were driven by was now possible within the establishment it's a great question I mean if you would have asked me when I was a college student um organizing uh walkouts and uh stins and diin and the center of our campus um if you would have asked me hey uh you know there would be a member of Congress who's palestinian-american or a member of Congress who comes from the movement working to save black lives um you know someone like Rashida TB someone like Cory Bush um that they're going to be in Congress and that they're going to have people working for them that believe like we do that we shouldn't be funding endless Wars and and we shouldn't be treating the environment in the way that we treat it Etc I would have told you that's not possible I could not have even seen myself in those Halls because that's you know the demographics of folks who get in there is very different than you know me we're not sitting next to each other right now Muhammad but if if we were in person you'd see I got to give this disclaimer when I'm on Zoom with people I'm 66 okay I'm I'm I'm one of the largest Arabs Muslims you you will ever see in your life so you know there's there's something of like sticking out like a sore thumb right um but you know back then when I was a college student I could not have imagined that there would be people who share our values who who speak up uh unflinchingly for Palestinian human rights represented inside the United States Congress and so certainly um with the arrival of uh leaders like Congressman Presley Congressman Omar Congressman Talib Congressman okazi Cortez and others Congressman Levan uh there was a feeling that hey we haven't been here people who believe like us that you know every Palestinian life and every Israeli life and every life every person's life p period is uh should be valued equally I don't think we we've really been represented inside those Halls um fairly or adequately um and so there was certainly a feeling of Hope and I I I think continues to be um a feeling of Hope in that hey you know we're inside we're pushing things very clearly and the you know there is an anti-war side in our country represented by people like congresswoman TB and congresswoman Bush um there's also a pro-war side they're not the majority they're a handful of folks who have a a good amount of money who you know represent the interests of the weapons manufacturers in this country who make more money off of every additional bomb that drops that kills another kid in Gazza and so the proar side is kind of freaking out they just spent more money than they ever have in the than or than has ever been spent in the history of our country on two Congressional campaigns on Cory bushes and on Jamaal Bowman's that to me signals that the other side is pretty scared of the power of our movement and our movement thankfully is just getting started we're not going anywhere October 7th comes along and this war in Gaza and uh everything that we have witnessed and you find yourself suddenly in this position where you uh you have one foot in and and one foot out so to speak what made you decide that you uh were going to take this step to make something that wasn't necessarily going to be perceived from within the party as as being something that is uh uh that is welcomed that that's that's you know in many cases is being seen very openly as being hostile to to what the Democratic party is trying to achieve so even in terms of my my own personal Journey Muhammad I was um you I was on the hill for half a decade which is half a decade too long and it you know work on Capitol Hill ought to be measured in dog years so really a few decades and uh um I had just left Capitol Hill in September of 2023 um I wanted to get away from politics for a moment if you know it really takes a toll on you and um and I I had moved back to Michigan for a family situation I was helping my mom with the medical situation that she was having and then October happens and you know in the in the few days after October 7th I'm in shock I'm someone who has a very unfortunate um expertise um in addition to my expertise as someone who's trained in you know policy and uh and politics Etc I'm also someone who like a lot of people in Southeastern Michigan has the experience of having survived us funded bombing myself I was child in Lebanon in 2006 I know what those bombs feel like I know what they smell like I know uh I know what the what the planes that uh what the planes sound like the the ones before the fighter jets that come and uh you know and and drop the bombs like that's um you know that post-traumatic place is where I was um you know after October 7th just in shock uh thinking about um you know the atrocities and and and that just took place in the atrocities to come because because Israel's the Israeli military's response was was very bloody immediately um and a lot of a lot of civilians a lot of kids were suffering immediately and so to me it was a few days of just catching my breath of you know rensing and um you know the uh you know that there's this sort of dichotomy here in American politics of domestic politics and foreign policy and you know for for a lot of us in Southeastern Michigan we're not experiencing what's happening to the kids in GZA as foreign policy we're experiencing that in our own bodies we're going to sleep at night thinking about it we're dreaming about it having nightmares about it I mean we we see our own Humanity in them and a lot of people across our country see their own Humanity in the in the kids in Gaza and so for me it was a few days of just what are we going to do and then it became clear that this situation was different it was different than usual because in my time working on Capitol Hill often times Progressive politicians Progressive members of Congress in particular uh Whenever there would be a new wave of bombardment by the Israeli military of GZA whenever the Israeli military would be you know shamefully mowing the lawn as as they refer to it um a whole bunch of tens of of democratic lawmakers would come out 100 plus Democratic lawmakers would come out and say oh I called for a ceasefire I I want I just want it to stop which is lwh hanging fruit usually you just call for the thing to stop right of course there's there's the larger critique of well you know you should also be working to you know stop the funding of the illegal military occupation um Etc right but usually everybody not everybody but a lot of democratic lawmakers will call for a ceasefire this time felt different I was hearing from colleagues within Congress saying that even liberal organizations uh that uh you know here in the United States were pressuring members of congress not to say the word ceasefire and I found that to be a very big red flag as someone who knows what it's like on the inside and so that's when I you know um jumped right back into it worked with you know my old bosses Cory Bush and Rashid Talib to support their leadership as they were drafting um you know the ceasefire now resolution and um you know I wasn't doing that uh alone I was doing that alongside a whole bunch of activists who Palestinian Advocates Jewish Advocates um black activists Etc who've been working on this issue for a long time and who teamed up in the wake of October 7th to push for a ceasefire um and you know we've been pushing ever since and um you know I I just can't believe it's still happening and was there an idea back then that we are in Michigan this is a swing state there is a strategic Advantage here that we can take it ADV essentially can we can we use to try and and influence um this foreign policy in those early days my God it's been almost a year um of ceasefire organizing a lot of the organizing that I was involved with myself was National organizing was linking up to the folks that I had been working with on this issue from Washington DC right and so um you know groups like uh um like Jewish voice for peace and if not now on on on you know on the Progressive side of Jewish organizing uh groups like um IMU policy project and um and and other Palestinian us campaign for Palestinian rights like you know these are groups that have been doing this work for a long time so a lot of my focus was um you know in thinking through some of the national activism around this um it really wasn't until um you know January of this year of 2024 when it became clear that as we were trying everything we could um you know writing into our members of Congress calling members of Congress doing phone Banks uh telling them to co-sponsor the ceasefire now resolution calling into the White House protesting doing everything we can the message just wasn't getting through it felt like President Biden himself deeply believed that Netanyahu should be able to do whatever he wants I mean and and if he doesn't believe that that's certainly what his actions are showing because the weapons continue to flow to netanyahu's murderous campaign and so by the time January came around some folks that we'd been organizing with um you know looked at the situation and thought and and correctly pointed out that the American Media the mainstream American Media was about to pivot away from talking about razza um and towards what American Media does during presidential election years towards the presidential covering the presidential election and so the idea of um using the Democratic presidential primary uh as a way of um pushing for a ceasefire pushing for a stop to the to the weapons and a stop to the War uh really came out of our ongoing and continued assessment of how is it that we're going to make sure that the situation in razza that that the genocide in Gazza is not something that just you know Fades into the background um as more and more children are killed using Us weapons um and so uh we came up with a a strategy and implemented a strategy specifically focused on making sure that whoever's talking about the presidential election can't ignore this issue and and you know there are a few reasons for um that strategy I'll point I I'll point out a couple of them one we were having conversations with our own community members here in Michigan who felt so deeply betrayed by uh President Biden's approach here that they weren't just saying I don't want to vote for President Biden they were saying I never want to vote for another Democrat in my whole life I feel so I feel so betrayed um the second is we were in touch with the fact that like people all across the world people all across the United States States and especially Democratic voters all across the United States we're seeing what was happening on our phones um and you know to to the Palestinian people in Gaza and just recognizing it as deeply immoral and you know not to mention blatantly illegal and so um we knew that the uh that thatza was a top policy issue and is a top policy issue not just for Arabs and Muslims but for a whole lot of people who are seeing their own Humanity in the humanity of Palestinians and so this is a moment when the ground is clearly shifting and so we came up with a strategy um to be responsive to that in that period that you're talking about back back in January I remember there was a lot of talk about how Gaza and Biden's Gaza policy in particular is such a problem for the Democrats that this could be an issue that syncs his presidency completely and this was again not just about the Arab or Muslim American vote but this was about the youth vote which the Democrats rely so heavily on it has been some time since that moment and obviously there's a there's a new candidate um and and Biden is not in the firing line in the same way anymore do you think this is still an issue that has an influence over the election or has the election cycle kind of moved on from it yeah I mean my sense in talking to people here in Michigan is that this issue uh is not going away that this is an issue that more and more is especially Democratic voters but people in general are paying very close attention to because the contradiction is very clear and it's a you know it's it's just like in the everyday voter's face you know you have a candidate in vice president Harris um and you have a president in President Biden who is saying ceasefire out of one side of their mouth and with both hands as they're saying it send more and more fire um I mean it's it's the the the contradiction is glaring and so um my sense is that this issue isn't going away um my sense is as someone who was among the leaders here in Michigan alongside folks like leid and Lexi zidan here in Michigan was among the folks who mobilized um voters we did 1.5 million voter contacts in three short weeks here in Michigan and earned 101,000 votes in a state where and that was in the Democratic presidential primary the last time Trump won in this state he won by 10,700 votes and so we were saying hey these are 101,000 voters who are self-identifying saying razza is a top policy issue for me and again to be clear these are not just Arab and Muslim voters in fact the minority of them are we earned over 10% of the vote for uncommitted which we made clear was a vote for peace against war and for Palestinian human right um in 75 out of 85 counties here in Michigan and most of those counties if I uh if if I would walk in I would probably increase the uh percentage of Arabs and Muslims by 100% okay so like this this wasn't you know Arab and Muslim strongholds this is a message that resonated and so you know unfortunately I don't believe the democ Democratic party leadership's response has um really contended with the the seriousness of this issue and with the pain that people are experiencing um and I I I am very concerned that it that it will have um um you know electoral consequences so last month you traveled to Chicago to attend the DNC um representing the uncommitted movement what happened what kind of reception did you receive when you arrived we did our campaign in Michigan we earned 101,000 votes the campaign spread like wildfire across the country where local organizers in States like Wisconsin and Minnesota and Washington State and Missouri and Hawaii and elsewhere um ran their own uncommitted campaigns we you know from Michigan we tried to be as helpful as we could but this was an idea that people caught on to and so over 740,000 voters nationally voted uncommitted as a propiece anti-war vote uh there are more voters than that who you know in their state didn't have an uncommitted option so did things like they left the ballot blank or they wrote in ceasefire or other things and so by by the time we got to the Democratic National Convention as a result of this Movement we had earned 30 uncommitted delegates right who were going to the Democratic National Convention now in the grand scheme of things there was something like 4,000 Harris delegates so we knew that we were outnumbered but 30 delegates who organized together uh you know thanks to the leadership of Lea Abid in particular organized together for months um trying to get on the same page about what it is that we wanted so we went in with very clear policy asks of Vice President Harris we want a stop to the weapons that are being used to kill civilians it's deeply immoral and deeply illegal according to International humanitarian law and according to US law and we want a ceasefire and the way to achieve a ceasefire stop sending the fire it felt clear to us so we went in with an organizing plan we said we're going in these are our two policy demands we're going to reiterate those policy demands Our obligation to the people who elected us is to make sure that uh this Pro Palestinian human rights message is heard at the Democratic National Convention and so that meant to us engaging in the media as much as possible hosting daily press conferences not just with people who were uncommitted but with a whole bunch of folks who've endorsed vice president Harris who also agree that she needs to stop stop sending weapons um but also we were there to engage with those Harris delegates and say hey these are the policy demands that we're here to represent they're they're supported by the vast majority of democratic voters will you join us and become a quote unquote ceasefire delegate so we came in as 30 uncommitted delegates we left the Democratic National Convention with over 300 delegates who had signed up to become ceasefire delegates so our our movement is clearly popular and growing we also went in you know our our primary asks our our policy asks stop sending weapons so that we can get a ceasefire and we went in with some secondary asks of the Democratic National Convention those asks included you know space for us to be able to host some press conferences to do our work um you know uh so that we can host a a vig that could be officially sponsored by uh the Democratic party that honors the lives of everyone who's been killed um not just Israelis because in the past the the Democratic party had only agreed to sponsor vigils that uh were uh that were commemorating Israeli people who've been killed um and so it was important to get that recognition of Palestinians um for us as Democrats and um we had uh uh asks that related to the the the DNC programming in particular one we wanted an official discussion of U Democrats organizing for Palestinian human rights something that could be sponsored by the Democratic party and we got that and in historic panel uh the first of its kind the Democratic party and the DNC in particular sponsored a discussion um um uh that was facilitated by um Attorney General Keith Ellison and Jim zogby and featured a couple of Palestinian leaders leid Andi hel of course um has family in Gaza um as well as Congressman Andy Levan and um Dr Tanya hash Hassan who's a US medical doctor who has spent time in Gazza that was a really important discussion it was a packed room was the first time that anything like that had ever happened again it wasn't why we went to the DNC but it was one of the things we were asking for another ask that we had which was a secondary ask was uh we had a couple of asks and we had a couple of requests for speaking time from the main stage at the DNC so that's where the party features all of the issues that really matter to democratic voters and so um you know Advocates against gun violence and advocates for Reproductive Justice and for um you know expanded abortion care um advocates for racial Justice I mean you name it you know the the party will feature speakers from the main stage the stage that ultimately uh the vice presidential candidate and the presidential candidate speak from and so we wanted to make sure that Gaza was discussed on the stage um and so we asked for Dr Tanya hash Hassan to be a speaker and we wanted a speaker who was affiliated with uncommitted to speak from the stage now it became clear in our negotiations with VI vice president Harris's team and with the Dem and with the DNC that um for some reason they weren't open to Dr Tan hash Hassan I don't really understand why we would uh have really benefited from hearing from her uh on the ground perspective especially in a moment when journalists have not been allowed in and journalists are being um killed by the Israeli military targeted by the Israeli military and so the testimony of doctors ends up being you know they they end up having to carry more of a burden than than they otherwise would have you know not only are they healing people but they're having to report back what's happening on the ground um but you know they weren't open to Dr Tan hash Hassan speaking um and we had heard uh you know we were seeing media reports that an Israeli American family would be featured from from the stage and so for us we said okay um you know the Democratic party's platform uh the draft platform said that uh uh the party values Israeli lives and Palestinian lives equally and so since that's the case we you know updated our ask and said well our request is that a palestinian-american speak from the stage we made this request um weeks before um you know the um the convention uh we made this request uh you know via text messages and emails and um uh and inperson me meetings uh so the request was very known and you know again it was just a secondary request of ours and for some reason after a lot of negotiating after a lot of uh Hey the answer isn't no yet we're working on it you know um you know so the fact that the answer isn't no is a good sign don't worry stick with this we got a call the Wednesday of the Democratic National Convention saying that they will not agree to have a palestinian-american speak from the stage and um you know it was unfortunate because uh you know we would have been so lucky to hear from a palestinian-american speak from the stage uh Palestinians um in this moment and always have very important perspectives that I think American audiences um need to hear from and that and that certainly delegate us delegates from to the Democratic National Convention uh would have benefited from hearing from that expertise it was a democratic party's loss it was a Democratic party leadership's loss because when they did that we ran out of options institutionally we had done everything that we could do to um deliver on that specific demand and um you know there was a blatant silencing a discriminatory silencing as far as I'm concerned and so we just did what regular everyday people do when something isn't right we sat in our power as regular everyday people we said we're going to sit out here we're not going anywhere and we want the world to know that the Democratic party leadership is for some reason scared to hear from a palestinian-american and and that's deeply hypocritical for a party that claims to be the party of inclusion and equity and representation and I think we ended up getting more um attention to the fact that there's something deeply wrong with how the Democratic party engages on the issue of Palestinian human rights um then we otherwise would have gotten if they would have just let a speaker speak for two or three minutes from the stage so I'm proud of what we did and what was the reception that you got from other democr members of the democratic party other attendees other delegates maybe other Congress people as well that were there at the time that uh were obviously aware of what you were trying to do so for me personally it was an interesting experience because a lot of the people that I was seeing in the hallways at the United Center where the DNC was being held uh were people that I've worked with for the last five years um colle and colleagues um you know uh members of Congress who I know personally their staff um so I was going up and and having those conversations with them and to be honestly to you most people that I had conversations with when I would describe what it is that we're trying to get vice president Harris to do in terms of updating her policy um and when I would describe that you know her team has been engaging with us in a way that we that Biden's team was not they would say oh that's really positive I hope she continues engaging with you um and you know part of it to me is since I was on the inside and I'm now on on the outside in this way I was pleading with colleagues saying hey I'm I'm a Democrat just like you are we've worked on stuff together right I want you to know that if the policy of our party was to support sending weapons to kill your family members then I would understand if you made advocating against that policy your number one priority so I hope you understand that that's what I'm doing and I would tell you that the the vast majority of folks that I spoke to recognize that that is real that's that's legitimate that's what we're doing as Democrats who happen to be Arabs who happen to be you know someone like me from South Lebanon like I I I'm here I'm working on everything that we love why is it that this policy gets to be uh the status quo that my family members in South Lebanon have to live under these weapons and bombs that uh that our government is sending and and and what they're experiencing pales in comparison to what our siblings maaza are experiencing and so generally I would say we had a lot of productive um um a lot of productive interactions and that didn't surprise me and I tell you I'll tell you why it didn't surprise me it didn't surprise me because again the majority of Democrats don't agree with the policy that Democratic Leadership is continuing to employ of sending weapons to Netanyahu um and that prevent a ceasefire and so we saw that in the delegates that we were uh that that we were engaging in I had a couple of interactions where someone would hear me doing a an interview or something on inan human rights and in one instance I was stopped and I uh uh I was asked uh uh do you ask for the release of hostages when you're advocating for uh for this um and my answer very simply and bluntly was yes of course we want we want the release of of all hostages on the Israeli side and the Palestinian side and they sort of didn't know what to do with me and and walked away you know but like that you know beyond that um you know the reception was um was positive I'll also say though the convention is a big party it's a big party where there's music and lights and um you know everybody's there to celebrate and dance and and just have really good energy heading into a general election and I and the other uncommitted delegates um and and you know we had a few uncommitted delegates who were palestinian-american themselves um and and I can certainly speak for my own experience was in that big arena hearing um you know song after song and and cheer after cheer and and really sitting with you know the the grief the grief that certainly Arab Americans are experiencing in this country seeing what our country is doing to Palestinians uh definitely Palestinian Americans definitely Muslim Americans definitely voters of conscience all across our country I was sitting with that grief and sitting with my own experience having Sur survived those weapons and thinking my God there's this it's like there's this giant contradiction uh where all of these kids have been killed using a party using a policy that this PO this party fails to even grapple with um that it it was really hard it was really really hard being in that Arty environment when our community is carrying so much grief um so yes positive engagements but also I think the Democratic party leadership is deeply out of step with um uh with with with with the humanity of Palestinians I remember when kamla Harris was first you know chosen to to take uh The reigns from from Joe Biden there was messaging from her camp that she was going to have a different stance on the on the issue on Gaza we that were going to get different messaging from her that it wasn't going to follow the line of what Joe Biden had uh had pushed this whole time and that he'd been obviously criticized for and you heard her speaking at that conference for the first time as the official representative and make it quite clear that not only did she believe in Israel's right to defend itself but that she was always she was also committed to giving Israel the means to defend itself which is obviously talking about those weapons and then days after the conference she had that sit down interview she said the same thing again and essentially made it clear that her policy won't change what does that mean for you what does that mean for the uncommitted vote what does that mean for what you guys have tried to do and and what you have left to do from now until November the idea that a major Party candidate does not support an arms embargo on the state of Israel is not a new idea that's been the policy of every major Pol every major Party candidate for for a long time the fact that we're even talking about oh maybe she'll change her policy is a testament to the historic levels of organizing that we're seeing all across the country and indeed all across the world that is demanding a more Humane approach that's pointing out the hypocrisy and so to say that oh kamla Harris doesn't support um you know a stop to sending the weapons that's nothing new she never she hasn't before and and and no presidential candidate major party presidential candidate has before and so that's precisely why we're organizing because we need that to change to save lives so of course it's disappointing not just disappointing it's uh unacceptable for vice president Harris given where the majority of democratic voters are to continue to mislead Democratic voters um by sort of repackaging talking points you know speaking to the humanity of Palestinians but simultaneously continuing to support the policy that's killing a whole lot of Palestinians it's hypocritical it's unacceptable um and for us this movement the movement to achieve a ceasefire the movement to achieve not another bomb we didn't get into this thing so that we can just focus on an election we got into this thing because we want to save the lives of our loved ones who are living in GZA because people in GZA are not strangers to us they are our siblings the people in the West Bank are not strangers to us they are our siblings we love them them and we're not going to stop pushing for the policy to change and so for us we have to take stock now before the election during the election and after the election how we continue growing our movement and you know we uh with the uncommitted movement have been very clear we put our cards on the table we said we're organizing as Democrats within the Democratic presidential primary vice president Harris if you would like for the uncommitted movement to endorse you we will endorse you even through our pain even through our even through the the political uh critiques and and um um you know risks that might come with it we will endorse you which to us endorsing vice president Harris would mean mobilizing for her election doing the kind of thing that I talked to you about earlier of like 1.5 million voter contacts that we did in three short weeks ahead of the Democratic presidential primary um you know that delivered the 101,000 votes in Michigan go out into the community have the conversation we would do that level of organizing if you change your policy if you if you agree to stop sending weapons and if that's not what you're able to do right then tell us what your policy is and you know let's let's negotiate tell us you know what you're willing to make your policy and then we can um you know have our conversation with our uncommitted delegates with key stakeholders and see if it's worth you know coming to an agreement about whether or not uncommitted will endorse I think an I think the vice president's campaign really should pursue an uncommitted endorsement um because in a state like Michigan we need every vote we can get and the Democratic party has deeply betray people for whom Gaza is a top policy issue and the uncommitted movement has built some trust there and and we could leverage that trust to ensure that we beat Donald Trump and and and and deliver a better policy unfortunately it doesn't seem that vice president Harris is interested in that um you know all the indications from her campaign up until this point it seems like they're not interested in an endorsement so that's fine you know we uh will have to make our endorsement decision here in the next couple of weeks um but regardless we're staying focused on the central issue at hand the policy for not just the last year the policy for the last few decades has been not just genocide in the in the case of you know since October 2023 but it's been illegal military occupation it's been an illegal apartheid system that the u United States government supports with the weapons that we're sending that are being used illegally to harm civilians so for us this isn't just about between now and November for us this is how do we grow the movement in the United States of America that will change the political landscape and and and and and and deliver and and force the political will necessary to get a policy change I don't think that's something that we can do in just a day or two or even a month or two um I wish it were I'm I'm certainly an an uncommitted organizer and ceasefire organizers and folks all around the country especially especially Palestinian Le advocacy organizations have been doing this work right we're not going to Ste we're not going to stop pushing um but we have to take an honest assessment of what happens next if you know what would our organizing look like under a Harris presidency under a trump presidency um and make those assessments so you know in in in the next couple of weeks uncommitted will come out with its decision on whether or not to endorse Comm Harris um and we'll have to you know contend with what the most productive thing that we can do to ensure that we get an updated policy of not another bomb between now in the election and and and and well after the election but one thing is for certain sure Biden is not the candidate but Biden is the president right now we got to keep up the pressure on him regardless of the election and on vice president Harris to change the policy well before we get a new president because we don't get a new president until you know January 21st is will be their first day in office so uh we need the policy to change before then because there are too many kids being killed using Us weapons in the meantime and The Leverage that your organization has particularly in a place like Michigan is that there you have been able to successfully prove that there is a number that is difficult for the Democrats to ignore this is a state that they need to win uh and in order to win that vote they need to work with you and they and that is the kind of the wisdom that you um are bringing into a space uh like the DNC to say that you know can you really afford to lose this vote because of this particular demographic of people that care about this issue and as you have pointed out so far the Harris campaign has made it clear that that is not something that they're willing to negotiate and that this is their policy and that policy is not going to change and so what happens then if on November 4th that policy still hasn't changed and there is there are these 100,000 votes in Michigan um that could decide the election what would you tell your voters would you tell them not to vote for kamla Harris is that an option for you to is that a card that you are willing to play with yeah so here's here's how I see it from where I sit okay I have a responsibility um um to um you know advancing the most Humane policies uh possible I also have a responsibility to my grandmother who lives in South Lebanon to my aunts and uncles who live in South Lebanon who are telling me hey Abes I know you're working on this thing do you think that they're going to stop bombing us anytime soon so the the the stakes that are at play are not theoretical to me I know just how big the stakes are and so I as a as a responsible political actor want to have an eye towards how is it that in our country in the United States of America we will achieve a more Humane policy on this issue what I know for certain is that as Arab Americans as Muslim Americans on our own in this country unfortunately we do not yet have the political power to stop an actual genocide that is a very horrific reality that I go to sleep thinking about okay and not just as Arab and Muslim Americans as anti-war voters we the pro-war side has so much power that they have enabled and and are and are sustaining an actual genocide so to me the question that I'm sitting with is how do we build enough power so that the policy changes and the way that we build enough power so that the policy changes within the Democratic party okay which is one of the two major parties that is that is ruling here is we we need to not be insular at as a movement we need to recognize where our movement sits alongside other movements in our country that have been pushing for justice on multiple fronts so we need to be building and as we've been building and with the uncommitted movement building those relationships with labor unions you know more labor unions in the United States than ever before have come out for an arms embargo we need to be building with black-led organizations um because this is a critical election for black voters Nationwide and and they have um really critical issues at at play here we need to be uh building with um with youth L organizations um so we are not a we are not a uh a movement that itself on its own will change the policy in this country we are a movement that is part of a larger Coalition of groups that increasingly is on our side about this and so what I don't want and what I think would be destructive would be for us to go out and say it would be okay if it were Donald Trump because as long as you know as long as it's you know the the the Democrats learn a lesson then that is then that will be enough I personally I think that would be disastrous I if Donald Trump comes I'm studying what Donald Trump has planned for our movement trying to save lives Donald Trump wants to deport protesters on on college campuses not to mention brutalize them and unleash military or police force against them Donald Trump wants to um uh um come for Donald Trump and the Republicans have specific plans for how to go after any organization in the United States that's working on Palestinian human rights and trying to take away their nonprofit status and not just that go after the the the organization that's funding them to do that work and take away their nonprofit status too not to mention what Donald Trump has planned for um for GZA and for the West Bank his son-in-law is fantasizing about million condos on the beach he's he's taking he's taking contributions from people who want the full annexation of the West Bank so I'm sitting with all of that and I'm sitting with my uncle calling me from South Lebanon saying abess do they know over there do you does is America clear that if Donald Trump comes that he will Greenlight Netanyahu to just do whatever you want with these people so I am not willing to take on a position that the important thing is that Democrats are punished the reality is the only people who will be punished not the only people but among those who will be punished disproportionately are our own family members who live in GZA and in West in the West Bank and and and in southern Lebanon if if Donald Trump becomes president so for me what that what what that leaves us with is we have to engage in the nuanced conversations with our community about what our options will be we're I'm you know I'm I've asked the vice president's team as recently as today hey you know we want an update to the policy what you know um uh you know what can we expect we've got the next couple of weeks on the uncommitted side of things to come out with whether or not we're endorsing but regardless of what happens I I I I think what what this moment requires is not just this person versus that person I think this moment requires how do we build the movement in this country to ensure that we deliver a policy change that's not going to happen in just a month or two that's going to to require us being part of a broader Coalition that does that and so uh I think based on my own analysis and based on the analysis of people way more smarter than me um uh like policy experts here and racial Justice experts here and my uncle living in South Lebanon I think we've got a block Donald Trump regardless I think that's critical to Growing our movement um and and what that means about how people vote for kamla Harris or not is the nuanced conversation that we need to have but I'm hearing too many people right now um say things like I just heard someone yesterday say oh I I think I think the Democrats have left us with no choice I'm gonna vote for Trump because he's the anti-war candidate I based on what I know about Donald Trump I know he's not the anti-war candidate but that's the message that the Democratic party leadership by abandoning this community is allowing to um uh to uh to spread and so in the absence of real leadership from the Democratic party we have to step up and say regardless of how we vote we're not voting for either Kamala or Trump because they represent how we feel on this issue no major presidential candidate has ever represented how we feel on this issue we have to vote not as a love letter we have to vote as a chess move of for how we continue our organizing moving forward um you know that's that's the wisdom that I carry you know from from fellow leaders in this movement me my friend Jennifer Kno at working fames party says that you our vote is not uh is not a love letter it's a chess move we have to think seriously about not just not just get you know sidetracked with the the um the horse race of November we have to think about how we build the movement in our country that forces a policy change that saves lives but November is is a um particular touch point and it's a particular opportunity for a very small community like the one that you represent like the one that you come from in Michigan to have an outsized influence on an election like this and obviously you've had your fair share of criticism of people that are saying that what you're doing is just pushing people to vote for Trump or or or kind of giving Trump more oxygen in an election where he deserves less and and where you know we're fighting for an existential uh you know fight to save democracy but you are also getting people that are criticizing you on the other side and saying that by not committing to um a real challenge to the Democrats in November by really not putting that vote on the line and making them feel like they could really lose the election because because of this that you are weakening your hand you are essentially allowing them um to do what they seem to be doing now which is saying that we don't need to deal with this we can afford to go on without it and we'll be fine is that how you see it so the way that I see it is um we've we've used the Democratic presidential primary process um in a creative way that hasn't happened before and demonstrated that there are votes here um uh uh for voter votes of Voters for whom Gaza is a top policy issue so that is clear and and you know I do not think of myself as someone who is a part of a small community or represents a small community I think of myself not just as an Arab or Muslim American I think of myself as one of the majority of Democrats who wants a different approach on this issue I also am someone who is I do not perceive myself as someone with the luxury given that my own family members are living in South Lebanon of saying um well you know maybe we could just try Trump and see what happens like not only do I do I know that that would mean a lot more of our family members would be killed I also myself was in the capital on January 6th okay I could have been one of the people who like the white supremacist mob that he sent um you know could have harmed okay Donald Trump's agenda for us is extremely dangerous and so um we're we have you know these these really difficult um uh challenges and analyses that we have to contend with between now and November of both saying the truth about how Donald how dangerous Donald Trump would be with our community because I think I think a lot of folks don't really know um and and I don't blame them I mean like you know a lot of what my cousins will tell me will be like AB how could Trump be any different what's worse than genocide right and I think I understand people who feel that way I mean that's you know that the what we're seeing is is is so out of bounds it's it's it's crossed so many lines that it's unimaginable um but we're also having to contend with that as as much as we would love to be living in a society and in a country as much as I would be love to be living in a country where it's not this duopoly where it's just Dem it's either going to be a democrat or a republican in the white house that's the world we live in it's going to be a Democrat or a Republican and so um we have to take this movement this uncommitted strategy all the way up until the edge right and and I you I think we did that through the through the DNC and we're going to continue doing that for the next couple of weeks until we announce our endorsement strategy we have to take that all the way up until the line and then recognize that the Democratic party you know as of now I hope they change their mind if they're listening you still have time to change your mind like you know you can change the policy um but if if their calculus is that they don't need voters in Michigan um uh for whom this is a top policy isue that they're going to try and get maybe some Republican voters to supplement you know those uh those votes then that will be on them people should be asking them why is it that you're willing to risk Michigan in this way and I hope that whatever calculus they're making that they'll that they're right that they can still beat Donald Trump even without uh this community I happen to think that that's a very dangerous game to play I wouldn't advise that they do it are you worried that come November if if the situation doesn't change the way that it is now that this would have been a missed opportunity it's certainly a missed opportunity for the Democratic party but I you know the um the unfortunate reality that I live with as someone who uh both Works within the Democratic party and happens to be um Arab and Muslim American is that the Democrat party's current policy is it's not you know it's it's uh uh it's leading to a culture within our own country of um you know growing anti-arab anti-palestinian racism uh you know islamophobic sentiment and it's um perpetuating a policy that means that a whole bunch of people get killed using Us weapons simply because of who they are um it's unacceptable um so the the party itself has and and and the party leadership are perpetuating a level of um uh not just discrimination but violence that's totally unacceptable and to me yes it's a missed opportunity for them but I am interested in the long-term project of taking power from taking power from the people within the Democratic party who are proar and wielding it in the in the service of people who are anti-war because let me tell you something I think a lot of folks in our communities people who are anti-war you know see how badly the Democratic party is operating right now Democratic party leadership is operating right now and say well you should just leave the building stop engaging with them they suck why why would you why would you even continue engaging what I think is I was in those Halls I know I'm very acutely aware of just how badly the proar side wants to make sure that someone like me and people like me and organizers like those organizing with uncommitted can be nowhere near those rooms where the decisions are being made and our message to them is we're not going anywhere we're going to continue growing our power within the Democratic party uh because our Democratic party is not the one that you are uh that that that you are the way that you're leading this Democratic party it does not align with the majority with what the majority of democratic voters wants and we're going to take power for regul everyday people working with unions working with blackl organizations working with youth organizations until we have more power than they do that's how I see it I I this isn't this isn't a week or or a monthlong project this is a project that we have to invest in across the board because that's how we're going to be able to deliver a policy that saves lives and policies in general that save lives finally abess um you've had a plenty of of conversations with the with the Harris campaign and you've had an opportunity to speak to her directly from what I understand what was the message when you had that chance to to look her in the eye and to speak with her what were you trying to communicate what did you say I had the opportunity to meet vice president Harris very briefly um I had been working with her campaign been asking for a meeting uh to discuss the policy demands of our movement stop sending the weapons and uh so that we can achieve a ceasefire um as part of that engagement at the campaign invited U myself and um you know co-director of uncommitted Le AB to go and be in the um um in the photo line that welcomes vice president Harris to to Michigan and so both Lea and I um you know uh engaged with vice president Harris directly and asked you know and what I recall saying to her was something along the lines of um you know my name is abz I'm and uh I'm I'm one of the leaders of the uncommitted movement I'm also an uncommitted delegate from Michigan um we want to be able to support here in Michigan but we need an update to the policy that saves lives would you be willing to an uncommitted voters want to support you but need an update to the policy that saves lives would you be willing to meet to discuss an arms embargo that saves lives I said that to the vice president she expressed an openness very clearly Leila repeated that same sentiment to the vice president when she met uh her and uh the Vice President also you know expressed an openness pointed her to her staff member and said yes you know we you know we should talk um and so you know the uh what what came next is I think I think that there were you know certain um pro-israeli military forces that were really upset about the fact that there was even discussion of an arms embargo and so there was all of this cleanup of oh she doesn't support an arms embargo we didn't say she supports an arms embargo we know where her policy is that's precisely why we're trying to get her to change it um uh but I I think engagements like that to me me speak to a couple of things I think for one thing a lot of what we're hearing and you you alluded to this earlier um in our conversation a lot of what we're hearing is that vice president Harris is different than President Biden on this issue because she feels differently I happen to you know on a personal level um I can see that I can see that President Biden as someone who has had the political trajectory that he had who has uh from what I can tell a lot more alians or Arabs or Muslims in his orbit you know as friends or as advisers um I can see that she personally as an individual might feel differently about this issue than President Biden I also know and you know one of my uh one of my colleagues Point points this out he says if I had a dollar for every time an American politician expressed sympathy for Palestinians privately I'd be a very rich person I also know that that's true that in this moment of genocide we cannot go to our community and say hey Kamala Harris feels differently trust us it'll be a little bit different you know like that that's not acceptable we need accountability we need her whatever it is that she feels but we need we we're not dealing with just kamla Harris the individual we're dealing with k Harris the person who's leading the Democratic party now uh you know as as the candidate who who very likely will be the president of the United States we need her to say things publicly that bring the United States policy uh you know up to date with what is moral what is just and what is legal in this case and that is stop sending weapons that are being used to kill civilians it's unacceptable stop doing it so that's how I feel about that interaction I I certainly felt like she was listening in a in a way that um uh that felt positive but uh I can both acknowledge that and recognize that listening is not enough we need the policy to change now not later and if you uh had another opportunity maybe a more intimate one to speak with her and you've talked about you know the activism that you're doing the the connection that you have with what is happening both as uh an Arab American uh um as somebody that comes from Michigan that somebody that has worked alongside Palestinians but it was also as you mentioned somebody that knows firstand the experience of being on the receiving ends of those bombs what would you say to her know in February um uh President Biden sent a a group of you know senior advisers to him um John fer saman the power um Steven Benjamin Tom Perez and others um and they had a series of meetings with the you know leaders from the Arab American Muslim American communities and what I said to them in that moment is really how I feel um you know the those are folks who you know I was a chief of staff on Capitol Hill so I actually worked very closely with the president's team I worked very closely with the vice president's team I I worked very closely with the vice president's team when she was a senator not a president not a vice president right so like these are people that I know and so I in that meeting urged them I said you know I've worked with your teams so if you I hope you can see me as a colleague I was recently on the inside if you do not see me as a colleague at least I hope you see me as a human what I am telling you is that as someone as a human when I was a child I experienced the weapons the bombs that our government is sending to kill those kids and I'm telling you I'm speaking on behalf of that child and a child that feels solidarity with every 15-year-old in Gazza right now that those bombs got to stop like that just just what needs to happen I'm asking that kid what do you most need and that is what's needed stop the bombs not another bomb that's what's needed and so I looked every one of them in the eye and I asked them because I I'm an adviser myself so I I I know how uh I know a little bit about how this works I asked each of them have you advised the president to push for a ceasefire this was in February and not one of them could say yes and I think that it signifies that up until that point the president himself didn't have anybody around him who was advising him that hey we should at least be pushing for a ceasefire or say we're pushing for a ceasefire so you know the um there is something to be said about um you know making sure that we both understand how this works these people how these political leaders are being advised but then also like continuing to build relationships with them where they cannot continue a policy that dehumanizes Palestinians and Arabs and Muslims to a level where we just get to be killed with without any without any without any consequences and so to me that requires continued engagement um and you know they like we we have to we have to ensure that not going anywhere and so if if I if I were to get to sit down with vice president Harris I would I would tell her about my own family members I would tell her about um you know the the stories of of the horrors that I'm hearing from uh community members who have family in Gazza who've lost tens or or 100 plus family members because they unfortunately and I think this is evidenced by uh the ridiculous stupid discriminatory decision not to to have a palestinian-american speak from the stage but the Democratic party leadership unfortunately have um and and and the proar elements within the Democratic party unfortunately have dehumanized Arabs and Muslims and Palestinians to a level where I think they just think of us as numbers and we're going to continue insisting that we are here in our full humanity and we're not alone we're actually part of a of a really big and growing movement in our country that's going to force you at every turn to contend with the fact that you are supporting a policy that's killing babies that's the policy that you're supporting and if if that hurts you to hear then you should probably change how how it is that you're approaching this issue you should probably stop supporting the policy that kills babies and you are fighting to continue to have a seat of the table to say to be able to say those things of course and I want to be clear I I think that there's um you know as a community we need to be aware that we have to be at the table and we have to be outside and we have to be on the phones we have to be everywhere there is no one piece of this that is more important than the other and and let's let's also be clear with each other that you know I did many med media interviews from the inside at the DNC and a lot of the questions that I got was well don't you think the protesters outside on are undermining what you're doing trying to get a seat at the table um and I think we have to be disciplined as a movement I think we have to say and and this is how I responded every time is I'm here because I want to change in the policy the policy is that babies get killed using Us weapons and the people who are enforcing and and and promoting that policy are the leaders of the democratic party so the people who are preventing me from my policy goal are not the people outside saying stop sending bombs the people who are preventing that are the party leadership and I want to say that to their face so I think we need to be everywhere that's how I think we end up being strongest as a movement AB Al I really appreciate your time and we hope we get to speak to you again before the election uh and catch up but thank you very much for your time today thank you so much Muhammad it's been a pleasure thank you for watching this episode of the big picture and a big thank you to Our Guest today abess aloya we want to know what you have to say about this conversation about the ongoing war in razza and about the upcoming US election so please leave your thoughts in the comments below and as always you can find all of our episodes in audio format wherever you get your podcast from and until next time s [Music]