The Official Chimp Crazy Podcast with Tooth & Claw | Episode 4 | HBO

♪ (HBO INTRO PLAYS) ♪ ♪ ("CHIMP CRAZY" THEME PLAYS) ♪ WES LARSON: I'm Wes Larson, one of the hosts of Tooth & Claw podcast, and this is The Official Chimp Crazy Podcast, produced in partnership with HBO. This week, we're talking about the final installment of Chimp Crazy. First, we have a conversation with the filmmakers, Eric Goode and Jeremy McBride. And finally, we'll speak with Carl Safina. He's an author, ecologist, and professor of nature and humanity at SUNY Stony Brook. We're going to be talking with him about the implications of anthropomorphism and what it's like to experience the world as a chimpanzee. It's a really interesting conversation. I think you're going to love it. And if you're looking for more in-depth exploration of the series with recaps, and analysis, and a detailed explanation of exactly what happened in each episode, check out The Official Chimp Crazy Podcast on Tooth & Claw, wherever you get your podcasts. All right. So we are back with our interview portion of episode four. Once again, I'm joined by director Eric Goode... ERIC GOODE: Hi, Wes. WES: ...and executive producer Jeremy McBride. -JEREMY MCBRIDE: Hi, Wes. -WES: Hey, guys. So we start this episode pretty much with a police raid, and we see these law enforcement officials entering Tonia's home, and they're there to start the process of removing Tonka from the home. And she's talking to Dwayne in this moment, and I felt this feeling that maybe it was almost like she was testing the water with him. Did you guys feel like Tonia knew that it was the film crew or do you think that that came as a revelation much later? ERIC: Well, not much later, but I think she wasn't sure, which is kind of unbelievable. But I think, strangely, I don't think she knew. JEREMY: Eric, I kind of have a slightly, um, kind of different perspective, just because of what that footage showed us and shows the audience in that moment. Starting with Justin's nonverbal reaction to Dwayne as he's kind of trying to bring some levity in this situation. Kind of looking at him, side-eyed with question. For us, it's kind of open for interpretation. Like in her heart, maybe she didn't believe it that he could have possibly done that to her. WES: Yeah. JEREMY: So it's kind of one of those situations where-- ERIC: Well, I think she was very suspicious, but the problem is, as you know, Tonia told a lot of people. I think she wanted Dwayne to divulge it was him or us. So I, you know, I'm not saying she didn't suspect us, but I don't think she knew. WES: Now, the backstory that's so interesting, you know, what technically happened on that day was she was served-- I don't know the technical legal term, but this information saying that she's going to have to respond to this in a way of dealing with the confiscation. US Marshals are going to be there. They're going to confiscate Tonka. So going into it, and us, Eric and I, kind of talking to Dwayne through this, like, hey, she's going to know. There's no reason why she wouldn't know because if she just read the, you know, legal documents that were delivered to her that served as a basis for them to get Tonka, you know, she would know for sure. So, why is she inviting you? So our question then became, "Are you walking into a trap?" Literally, are you going into a situation, being baited in, and is she going to harm you? I don't know. What could possibly happen? All these scenarios that we're working through in our head. ERIC: Well, Jeremy, there are some people in this world -that don't read. -JEREMY: Fair enough. Yeah. WES: That's fair. Yeah. JEREMY: We were, like, just totally dumbfounded. We couldn't believe that, you know, she didn't know. WES: Eric, on that same note, you know, after Tonia does indeed learn that it was Dwayne and it was the film crew and everything, you finally get the chance to meet her face to face. And I'm curious what that was like for you to finally get to meet Tonia and have this face-to-face interview with her. ERIC: I-- Listen, I was very surprised that she, one, was willing to meet with me. Yeah, I thought that she would've at least, if she met with me, you know, really confronted me about not being transparent from the beginning. And I didn't even actually explain to her why I wasn't transparent. She didn't even ask. It was just a relief for me to connect with her on a very human level. And so, you know, it was a relief. But all along, of course, I was scratching my head as to why she would talk to me. WES: Yeah, and I'm glad we see that moment. For all, you know, some flaws that we've seen, Tonia does seem very quick to also forgive Dwayne. You know, it takes, like, a few moments for her to pretty much say, "I know. I understand. It's okay." We see in this episode that because of this long legal struggle and obvious evidence, then, that Tonka's alive, PETA then says, "Hey, we're going to make Tonia pay our legal fees, or Tonia can get completely out of this trade. She can stop keeping, breeding, selling animals. And we're able to kind of let her go scot-free." And she immediately dismisses that out of hand. And I'm curious if you know, has there been any kind of resolution to that... that struggle since you guys stopped filming? JEREMY: Well, I'd start by saying this. In this episode, a lot happens to Tonia. She loses her best friend, is betrayed by someone she really liked, is on crutches. She got her foot run over. WES: Attacked by a chimp. JEREMY: Attacked by a chimpanzee. She is broke. All of her money is being poured into the zoo. And despite all of that adversity, she sees a way out and decides to go the other way and fight it. And you kind of realize what's at stake and what's important to her. And they're basically saying, as she says so well in the episode, you know, "They're trying to take my life away." And that's such a hard thing for us with the PETA case. You know, on one hand, there's this private organization dictating and maneuvering without really playing by the rules. And so that always was a hard thing. Like, enough is enough. You got the animal back. Why now ruin this person's life? So it's a hard one, you know? It's a hard one to have that context to understand what this person has been going through. They've gotten everything they want, and now they want to make it worse for her. That's something that we kind of struggled with a lot. ERIC: You know, look, I think that when you meet Tonia and you realize, you know, the human factor in this story... The problem is no one from PETA has really met Tonia or tried to understand Tonia. I just hope there's a silver lining in this documentary series for Tonia. I just would love to see her give up the monkey peddling business and try to find peace. And just taking care of maybe a group of animals well, and running a small zoo on her property would be a nice compromise, rather than pimping out baby primates as she does. I think that, you know, deep down, Tonia knows that it's kind of a horrible business. WES: Yeah. There's a lot there to talk about. And I think, you know, what you said, Jeremy, about PETA and their kind of singular mission and whether it's too far to, you know, push her that much. I think that was my first knee-jerk reaction. But then also seeing her immediately turn it down and remembering the shots of Tonka in his enclosure in her basement, and thinking, "You know what, this is someone who probably shouldn't be doing this." And really, who should be doing this outside of zoos, or education systems, or, you know, whoever is able to keep these animals in an ethical way? And I think the other thing that we just touched on that I definitely wanted to talk more about is that this almost seems like an addiction for her. Your closing scene where she shows up and says, "Hey, I just got attacked." And then in the same breath says, "I'm thinking about buying an island where I can live with these animals." It's like someone fiending for their next kind of fix almost. ERIC: Yeah, I mean, it's like you say. We could have saved her, you know, from the fate of a chimp killing her, you know. Or effectively an overdose, right? It is like an addiction. And she's playing with fire. And so part of me feels like, you know, we did something virtuous, not only for Tonka, but maybe even saving Tonia's life. You know, I mean, of course she doesn't see it that way. WES: Yeah. Well, we do know she's a rule breaker too. So I'm curious even if they had of stuck her with, you know, that injunction and saying you can't do this, I'm pretty sure she still would. JEREMY: Yeah, yeah, that's for sure. I also think, you know, Wes, the addiction thing, of course, going back to it, I think there's a love blindness to it, you know, that is real. And what would one do for love? It makes you do crazy things. You've heard that expression used a lot before. I think this is no different than an extreme form of that. And we see it expressed very dramatically in Sandy's story and obviously Pam's story. What do they want to do after their son's gone? They want to get another. ERIC: Yeah, this is a love story for four women. And, you know, Pam Rosaire says Sandy Herold, you know, died from heartbreak, right? WES: Yeah. And I think those are really beautiful sentiments. And I agree that it's a love story. To play devil's advocate a tiny bit, something that really resonated with me was when you do hear Sandy talking about her whole experience and how terrible it was. And she says, "But I'd do it all over again." And meanwhile, Charla Nash is missing her face. You know, it's horrific, the injuries that were inflicted on her. And then, it's horrific what these animals had to live through too. You know, like, Travis was essentially a prisoner, and Tonka was a prisoner. Personally, I really appreciated that we have that perspective and that we do feel sorry for these women that have invested that much care into these animals. But I think you also did a really good job of showing that ultimately, it's misplaced because it is impossible to give this animal what it needs in a private, captive environment. It just is impossible. And so I struggle to think of, like, a fix for this sort of thing. It doesn't seem like there's an easy way to help someone that their addiction is a chimpanzee. ERIC: Yeah, I have to say I agree. And I'm not one to say that people can't keep responsibly some animals in captivity. I think that you can do that. But I think it's awfully hard with a chimpanzee to give a chimp the quality of life that a chimpanzee needs. I think one of the common threads between all four women is that none of them probably have seen chimpanzees in the wild and seen how chimpanzees should live. Maybe a light bulb would go off, and she would recognize maybe, you know, maybe, what she's really doing. WES: Yeah, I definitely agree with that. I think having covered a number of instances of people keeping animals in captivity, and seeing it go wrong, I do think often those people have this need to have the animal give something back to them. There needs to be this reciprocal kind of relationship, where just observing it in the wild isn't enough for those people, often. They have to-- They want to touch, they want to feel an emotional connection. There has to be that whole thing. And I would love to also see that. I'd love to see if maybe Tonia seeing these animals happy in the wild might help to remove that and make her feel like, "Oh, this is enough for me. I can appreciate this animal as it's meant to be." And I, you know, we've talked a bit about anthropomorphizing, and there's this part in this episode specifically where Pam says that her animals are happy because they get to see the White House, and they don't have mosquitoes, and they live like millionaires. And it's a really interesting moment because, you know, for captive chimps, she probably does have some of the happiest captive chimps. But after talking to Craig and learning about it, he brought up this really good comparison of, like, that is an animal, like he said, that essentially was raised by aliens and has learned how to be happy as an alien, but never really gets to express itself as a chimpanzee. And that does seem to be lost on some of these subjects in your documentary. ERIC: Yeah, and there's things that we don't speak about too much, which is, you know, these chimps, Pam Rosaire's, you know, they're-- they're castrated, they're... They can't be chimps, right? They do things to these chimps to be able to work with them. WES: Yeah, their fangs are removed, right? ERIC: Their canines are removed. So there's some dirty little secrets to be able to break and manage a chimp in a circus. WES: Yeah. For me, going kind of full circle here, and I think you do this really well, again, in the film, is we get this amazing moment where Alan Cumming, who we've been following throughout this, and I have to admit is just amazing throughout the entire thing, how sympathetic he is to your characters and how-- JEREMY: But isn't it fair though, Wes, because he kind of has the same sickness, -he has the same feelings. -WES: He does, yeah. And I think it's amazing to see that and to see him kind of throughout this journey. And we get this incredible moment where he finally goes to save the chimps in Florida. And it's this stark contrast between Tonka in a cage in a basement. And for you personally, having been on this journey for years, how did both of you kind of emotionally resonate with that, with seeing that footage and seeing Tonka in his sanctuary in Florida? ERIC: Well, for me at first, I wasn't sure. You know, I thought, you know, maybe Tonka misses television, and misses Happy Meals, and misses whipped cream and cake. But I think the more I learned, I realized that more than all of those things, being with other chimps, being able to socialize and groom with other chimps and having that relationship with other chimps at Save the Chimps trumps everything. JEREMY: It breaks through in the footage too, Wes. I mean, it's the closest approximate environment for Tonka to be successful in. And he's on a three-acre island with 18 other chimps. But we would get these live-feed updates from the team at Save the Chimps over the course of this journey that would really indicate to us his acclimation, him opening up, him being social, him responding to this environment in such a really unique way. Also, his condition. He got healthier. His hair started growing back, as you may have noticed, around his face, and darkened. So by all accounts, he's happy being a chimp. -WES: Yeah. -(WHOOSH) All right, so for the second part of today's interview portion, we're going to be talking with Carl Safina. Carl is an author, an ecologist, and professor of nature and humanity at Stony Brook State University of New York. Carl, thank you for joining us today. CARL SAFINA: Really a pleasure. WES: So Carl, throughout this series, we've been seeing a lot of captive chimpanzees, people that have formed relationships with these animals. And I was hoping quickly you could just describe to the audience basically what is anthropomorphism, why it's often seen as a negative thing, and why it's potentially a dangerous thing when you're dealing with captive primates like a chimpanzee. CARL: Okay, well, anthropomorphism is attributing human thoughts and emotions to non-humans. However, I do want to point out that, to me, the key word is "attributing" because there are non-humans that have thoughts and emotions and deep and complex social and emotional and psychic lives. So, in a way, to me, I don't think that the key issue here with the chimpanzees is one of anthropomorphism. I think the key issue is a mismatch between how the people who are keeping them think it's okay to keep them versus what a chimpanzee, with their mental and emotional complexities and their social needs, really require to be psychologically fit to live the life that they are born to live. And in my opinion, uh... I don't even think it's an opinion. I think it's fairly obvious. Those needs cannot be met in captive situations for chimpanzees. WES: Yeah. I know we talked with Craig Stanford a bit, who's a primatologist, and-- and he brought up that with chimpanzees, they may be the animal that's closest to us and that we can anthropomorphize best with because they are so similar to humans. And there is kind of this overlap in our attitudes and even kind of our intelligence and whatnot. I know in this series, we see a lot of interpretation about how these animals are feeling and what they're going through by these owners. And I'm curious from your professional view, how are we actually able to interpret what animals are feeling and what they're experiencing? CARL: Yeah, well, as I said, I think the key thing there is attribution. If you observe something, and so the caveat there is you need to be a good observer. You need to be objective. You need to have some sort of basis and background and context for understanding what animals that are not human beings are experiencing. With other animals, though, you know, you can simply see that many of them act frightened in situations that are threatening. They may act confident or affectionate in situations where they are in a place they know well or with other individuals who are their mates, or their offspring, or members of their social group. You know, it's very reasonable to interpret what they are probably experiencing by the logic of their behaviors and the logic of their context. As far as the second part of the question about what the people who are keeping them are saying that they are experiencing, you know, they're asserting, I guess I might say, that they're doing well and that they're okay. Their version of love, you know, love of course takes many, many forms that are sometimes self-serving. There are some that are selfless. I think that if you claim to love something, it has to sort of pass the test of does it really want to be there with you and are you open to the possibility that what you are doing with it and for it is not the best and is not in its best self-interest. WES: So on the flip side of that, a few of the subjects in the film really assert that these chimpanzees are essentially humanzees. They use that term even a couple times, where they say they've been raised with humans to such a level that they don't even know how to really be a chimpanzee anymore. And I'm curious, from your professional perspective, is that true? Can these animals be reintegrated into chimpanzee societies or is that damage done and it's kind of impossible for them to become chimpanzees again? CARL: Ah, well, there's chimpanzees and there's chimpanzees. So if you're talking about wild chimpanzees, they can never be integrated into chimpanzee society because, for one thing, chimpanzees learn almost everything culturally. Where do you go? What do you do? How do you show respect to higher-ranking individuals? Where's the food? Where's the water? The big problem with chimpanzees is that they are socially not suited to live in nuclear-type families with people. So chimpanzees live in hierarchical groups where, especially for males, dominance and seeking high rank is pretty much everything for them. And they win their rank in violent fights, which is very different than something like an elephant or a sperm whale or a wolf that achieves its rank by age. So chimpanzees get to a point where they are compelled to try to be dominant over everybody, and they achieve that dominance by fighting violently and overthrowing the existing dominant individual. Wolves, on the other hand, which are the ancestors of all dogs, they live in nuclear families. But that's the difference between a creature that is evolved and then domesticated. They are genetically changed from wolves. They differ in very important ways that let them be really well-suited to living with people. Chimpanzees have none of that at all. WES: Yeah, I do think that's something that is maybe lost on a lot of these people that do raise these animals, and something we've talked about a bit in these interviews, is that this is a process that takes a lot of time to remove those kind of wilder parts of an animal that's domesticated. And I wanted to open it up, Jeremy and Eric, if either of you have any questions you wanted to bring up with Carl, I wanted to give you time for that. I mean, I think I have so many questions, but I really like what you just said, Carl. What would you say to someone, if you had the opportunity, someone like Tonia, about this love that she professes to have for this chimpanzee, Tonka? She says, "He's not a chimp, he's a humanzee. He's imprinted. He's like us. He's caught between two worlds." What would you say to her about that love? CARL: Well, at that point, they are caught between two worlds, and that's because that love has been either damaging as love, or they've been damaged by the total lack of care and conscience that allowed people to bring wild, baby chimpanzees into captivity to begin with, or to breed them and sell them as property. They're not an object. These creatures really should be given the chance to live the life that they were born to live. And if you really, really want contact, which I do understand, the best way to get that is in a wildlife rescue center. And then there are also these sanctuaries in the US, which they really are sanctuaries. They attempt to create the kind of physical freedom and social complexity that chimpanzees need, but they can be given a much more humane retirement than living in what is essentially a prison and being considered property. My question's more about multi-generational influences, I would say, about the creation of anthropomorphic animal characters that you see created by the likes of Disney or what you see in children's books. You know, I have two young boys and I think a lot about, we talk a lot about the animal characters in the books and the animal characters in the movies. And I think about, you know, some of our subjects in our documentary series and their influences growing up that got them into these places they're at in life today. Just a curiosity that I would love to hear your thoughts on just these-- the world of influences in an anthropomorphic way with animals, and how that impacts our youth, and how to navigate, honestly. CARL: Not easy, has no real answer. That is the truth with a capital T. It's nuanced, in my opinion. And I would say that there are some-- there are many times where animals have been fictionalized to sort of stand in for human characters. You know, telling stories about being industrious or lazy by having a fox, or an ant, or a grasshopper. It seems to me like a very useful way to probe the human psyche by creating these non-human characters as stand-ins. I think for a young person, it can form a bridge between a totally human world and a world that is populated with other beings. I don't think it's necessarily a harmful thing. I will point out one thing that occurred to me. I wrote an opinion piece a few years ago about Hugh Lofting. And he is the guy that created the Dr. Dolittle series of stories. Why he did that is very touching. He was in World War I. He couldn't stand what he saw happening to the animals that they had in the trenches and in battle, the horses and things like that getting blown to bits and injured. He wanted to write home to his children and not tell him about all the terrible things he was seeing. So he made these stories about somebody who could talk to the animals. And in a way, that's wonderful. But it occurred to me that that's what we always are trying to do is talk to the animal, when really what we need to do is listen. -WES: Yeah. -ERIC: That's beautiful. I just want to ask one more thing, if I could, Wes. WES: Yeah. ERIC: You know, in this documentary, Carl, we're dealing with a real person, Tonia. And right now, we're actually very concerned about her well-being because, you know, we played a role in making sure this chimp was placed in a sanctuary. CARL: But you're talking about Tonia's well-being, right? ERIC: Yeah, Tonia's well-being. -CARL: Yeah. -ERIC: Yeah. Because we were obviously very concerned about Tonka's well-being. And we're hoping that there's a silver lining in this for her, somehow that she-- you know, not that she'll have an epiphany, but maybe she'll start to realize that this was a one-sided love affair between her and Tonka. What would you say to someone like Tonia to maybe try to make her understand what that relationship is that she has between Tonka and her? CARL: Well, obviously, that relationship for her, and for some of the people more or less like her, is very, very strong, and very deep, and hugely important to them. And she said, quote, "They're your babies," unquote. And, quote, "PETA has no empathy for the person or the love they have." And then what do we see? We see a bunch of cops, right? And it's a raid. Well, there's obviously no trust offered there at all. There's no counseling of any kind. There's no attempt to be friends. And I think that that could be handled much, much better if people cared not only about the welfare of the chimps, but also about the welfare of people who are so, so deeply invested in them and, you know, fairly obviously have other issues and gaps in their lives. WES: Yeah, I had another question that kind of builds off that a bit. And something you said earlier resonated with me about that want and that desire to be close to these animals. And I'm a wildlife biologist. I think my best days have been when I get to handle a grizzly bear or I get to, you know, be close to an animal that's that powerful and amazing. And I'm curious, in your opinion, what is it about the human condition that draws us to wild animals and these animals that that are so much more powerful than us in so many different ways? What is it about us, deep down, that ignites that within us? CARL: Our entire biological history. We're the direct descendants of four billion years of evolution. Our minds, our brains, our psychology, all was built over tens of millions of years in an entirely natural setting. That is our habitat. And I don't think we're just drawn to the most powerful animals, although their power is literally awe-inspiring. I love to see all of these things. We love our gardens. We love a view of the water. We love nature because we are built to love nature, and we suffer all the psychological ills of modernity because our psychology is not made for living the way that we have constructed a life for ourselves. WES: Great. Yeah, I think that's really illuminating. And, you know, a quick follow-up question that then would be, how can people reform those kind of connections to nature? How can they, you know, kind of reawaken that part of their lives? What would your advice be for people that watch this series and feel the need to be in a more natural state? CARL: Yeah, well, first of all, just be in a more natural state because it is everywhere still. And a lot of people don't see it. You just have to look around a little bit. Somebody once said to me, "I really want my kids to love nature, so we're going to Botswana next summer." And I said, "Do you have a bird feeder?" You know, because Botswana is not their real life. It's just a place they're going to go to and come home from. You put a bird feeder outside your kitchen window, look at it every day. The birds will always be different in different seasons. You know, it's a little window on things. WES: That's great. Thank you so much. Eric and Jeremy, if you guys don't have anything else, I think we'll wrap up with Carl. It's been a great interview. I've learned a lot, and yeah, we really appreciate your input on all of this. -Thank you. -ERIC: Yeah, thanks, Carl. JEREMY: Thank you, Carl. CARL: Well, I'm honored to be part of it, so thank you very much. And I do think the series is kind of mind-blowing. I just had, like, quite a series of "holy shit" moments. So thanks for sharing that with me. Thanks for being interested in my thoughts. And anytime you want to do it again, let me know. WES: Thank you, Carl. All right, well, before we go, Eric and Jeremy, I just wanted to give you guys one more chance to leave us with any parting thoughts on chimps in captivity, on Tonia, on the entire project. Just anything you want to leave us with before we wrap this up, and we're finished with episode four. ERIC: I guess I would say, you know, I think it might be important for people to know that chimpanzees are in the subfamily called hominins, which we are in that same subfamily, humans, homo sapiens. And so chimpanzees are closer to us than they are to any of the other great apes. They're closer to us than they are to-- Well, maybe not bonobos, but they're closer to us than they are gorillas. And so we're effectively looking at ourselves. And when you think of evolution and where we come from, we're so closely related to chimps that they really deserve the respect that we probably are not giving them. JEREMY: And I would just say something that, you know, really the issue, the captive issue in the US is kind of over. There's very few chimpanzees that we know of that are in captivity that remain. But it really, if you zoom out and you think about an individual's impact, and you think about habitat loss and degradation, that's the real message, is really wild populations of animals, and the human impact to that, and how we should all be a little bit more mindful of our actions. So I think a lot about that is our impact to wild populations of animals, especially, in this case, chimpanzees. WES: Yeah, I definitely felt that. And I'm happy that you guys were able to put that conservation message into your work. And I just want to say, from my perspective, I absolutely loved the documentary. I thought not only was it a really fun watch, it was really informative. I learned a lot about a whole kind of sub-community that I didn't even know really existed. And I learned a lot about an animal that I think is really misunderstood. So I just wanted to say thank you. It was a true pleasure watching the documentary and talking with both of you. -ERIC: Yeah. Thank you, Wes. -JEREMY: Thank you, Wes. WES: That's it for this episode. Again, a really big thank you to our guests, Eric Goode, Jeremy McBride, and Carl Safina. All four episodes of the HBO documentary Chimp Crazy are now available to stream on Max. Tooth & Claw is hosted by Jeff Larson, Mike Smith, and myself, Wes Larson. It's produced by Mike Smith with additional production services provided by Pod People. Special thanks to Tina Nguyen, Michael Gluckstadt, and Erin Kelly at HBO.