Former Israel negotiator Daniel Levy: THIS is Israel's real goal

Intro hello and welcome to useful idiots I'm Katie helper I'm Mary mat hey everybody thank you so much for joining us there's so much content out there and yet you're choosing us we're very grateful so nice we're especially grateful to everybody who supports us at useful idatp podcast.com you keep the show going and for doing so you get all kinds of bonus content including the extended interviews we do every week and also the Thursday Throwdown your wi your midweek dose of media Madness really encourage people to do that and Aaron you've been changing backgrounds a lot uh are you on the road I am on the road I on the road and uh I have a story I want to tell you know you know how some people when they have like sizable Twitter followings they'll try to exploit that with like by like asking an airline to be upgraded to like f to like business class or whatever um or they complain about how they were treated you know in the hopes of probably getting like an like an upgrade for a future flight I don't do that I don't do that but I will use this podcast Katie if you don't mind as my sounding board for travel complaints if if you don't mind no um and I don't think this will get me any upgrades on any Airline this has to do with the Marseilles airport in France where I just was okay so I'm in the mail bathroom and you know the mail bathroom you have two choices you have the urinal and you have the um stall with the door right right and I just had to go number one but the thing is all the urinol were occupied so I went into the stall and because I'm just going number one I don't feel they need to close the door right like you know I'm just in and out I'm just in and out okay okay I go I go on the stall I you know I do exactly what I would do at the urinal I do it number one um I leave as I'm like halfway down the hall I get a tap my shoulder and it's a security guard and he goes uh okay which means uh to translate from my wonderful French uh when you go to the bathroom you have to close the so I say back to him in my broken French say well I you know I didn't need to I didn't need to close the door given the nature of what I was just doing I was just I was just urinating right you have to close the door think and he was he did not agree so we got into a little argument about that um but I was shocked first of all a at his opinion to begin with that you have to close the door if you're just you know doing exactly what you do in a Ural and second of all that you feel compelled to come down and chase me down and tell me that wow like this is what a security guard is like doing at the Marseilles airport is that what they're concerned with imagine if a terrorist attack had taken place right when he was pursuing you that would have taught him his lesson yes yes yeah wow no I mean it's an interesting philosophical question I I agree though you are basically using a stall as a urinal and if you're allowed to be exposed the way you are at a urinal obviously there's that's not problematic exactly right if there's something special about urinating in a stall that requires you to close the door right that obviously you would not be able to do if you just at the urinal it just doesn't make any sense to me but this security guard was so offended by that that you know he chased me down to tell me that you know did he let you go he didn't detain you though right I was not detained no I was not detained I was able to exit uh safely um although actually fnally enough after that happened my flight got canceled wow coincidence so so actually maybe the security guard maybe the security guard you know really to show me what what and mayat yes yes so anyway well lesson not lesson not learn sir because I will continue to not close the door you'll probably never close the door now you'll go out of your way to not close it yeah yes now do most people close the door when using the stall well I don't know right I don't know people are closing the door for it but I can certainly recall many have you have you seen people used being in a in a stall with the door open I certainly have yes I think so unless unless you know I'm I'm I'm engaging in some cognitive bias here where I think I have right yeah but because I'm so not committed to my position that I'm I'm I'm delusional bias right yeah exactly exactly interesting anyway the point is people yeah let us know but also the point is really useful idiots we give you politics sure right we give you culture pop culture but we also give you profound philosophical debates for you to ponder the rest of your week so there you go well thank you Aon for sharing all right well I mean I feel like everything after this is going to be kind of a letdown but I guess we should nonetheless give people the four basic food groups so I'll start with The Four Food Groups of News Democrats suck and we have a moving story about AOC Alexandria Casio Cortez hosting a discussion on anti-Semitism with two interesting guests uh Amy spittel neck who is the CEO of the jcpa which is a lobbying group that is pushing for uh the definition the IH definition of anti-semitism which of course says that criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic and people want the US government to use the IH definition of anti-semitism the other person was Stacy berett who also works for the jcpa and worked for the Anti-Defamation League for over 20 years so let's hear what Amy spck had to say about the anti-Semitism on the left what's harder for us as progressives to recognize or stand is when anti-Semitism shows up and is normalized in our own spaces and I want to be frank here there is very real anti-Semitism that is in fact showing up in Progressive spaces right now and it's deeply painful and hurtful to Jews as has been said criticism of Israel Israeli policies and its government it's not inherently anti-semitic and the majority of people students and others showing up to protest are there to speak out for Palestinian rights not because they intend to be anti-Semitic okay so note what she does there she says that criticism of Israel is not inherently anti-semitic right and also most people don't intend to be anti-semitic when they're engaging in criticism of Israel the implication there is that they are often being anti-semitic um though to though bless them bless their hearts they don't realize it but we've seen the line into direct harm against Jews repeatedly crossed in recent months and over the last eight months in certain ways for me it's been almost more personally painful to see what's happening in my own Progressive Community than for example what I saw in charlot's FA because it's happening in my own Community poor Amy I I want to really hold this space for her and recognize her pain and her hurt um I think it's a great way to honor uh Heather Hayer who was killed of course by an anti-semite in Charlottesville when he drove his car into a crowd uh the fact that she thinks that calling for a free Palestine or criticizing Israel is the equivalent or actually more painful than what we saw in Charlottesville where Heather haer was killed and where people were chant chanting Jews will not replace us and holding um torches is so disrespectful and so ridiculous and outrageous like how dare she make that comment and this whole thing was kind of very misleading because the the shtick was kind of like yeah anti-zionism isn't always anti-semitic but we're going to lay out for you where it is when in fact they were basically making the case that anti-zionism is anti-Semitic and not just that it's more painful than what we saw in Charlesville I'm done with all these discussions of anti-Semitism and trying to have it both ways trying to pretend as if yes I'm critical of the government of Israel but the anti-Semitism in Progressive spaces has to stop there's no more room for that like it's over like it's done now everyone can now everyone with their eyes open can see that Israel is a Jewish supremacist Mass murdering regime and anybody who can't call that out and is trying to find some Middle Ground where you can have it both ways where you can pretend to have some criticisms of Israel while still not being aligned with those who are out there putting themselves on the line to protest Israel like it's not Progressive don't call yourself Progressive yeah you're not Progressive right that's that's the truth you're just not Progressive yeah yeah go and join Chuck Zoomer and like the corporate Democrats and AOC catering to these people with you know Katie you you actually made a great point on Twitter and let's actually pull up your Tweet because I really appreciate what you said about conflating criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism well I think yeah you're talking about this tweet that I wrote in response to AOC uh please don't conflate anti-zionism with anti-Semitism this conflation is in fact anti-semitic and trivializes actual anti-Semitism yeah and this is after AOC after not just doing this like you know ridiculous uh video seminar about the anti-semitic uh progressives protesting mass murder then she went and attacked protesters who were demonstrating against this exhibit in New York this really callous disgusting exhibit trying to exploit the atrocities that happened at the Nova Festival on October 7th uh to manufacturer support for Israel's mass murder campaign in Gaza and in that exhibit there's some outright genocidal statements um that are like presented in the name of like healing like we have to heal for the victims of the of the atrocities at the Nova Fest but really it's all just an excuse as all these things are just to launder Israeli narratives and and justify Israel's mass murder Rampage and Gaza and AOC is attacking the protesters who are out there against that and calling them anti-semitic so thank you Katie for calling her out for uh conflating anti-Semitism with anti-zionism because on top of just how disgusting it is to weaponize anti-Semitism to justify atrocities a Jewish supremacist regime it also actually contributes anti-Semitism as you said right because it conflates the state of Israel with Jewish people like us and there's no more place for that and I have to wonder why is AOC doing this like what compelled her to do this like is she looking at Jamaal Bowman and the struggles he's having right now where like apac's funneling tens of millions of dollars to defeat him Hillary Clinton is coming out against him endorsing his opponent and is she wondering you know she wants to put this up as like a way to defend herself from attacks like that this isn't the way to do it I'm sorry because she's throwing people who are protesting mass murder under the bus or I mean more cynically than that is she doing this to like give herself cover for if she runs for even higher office one day and she can point back and say look I spoke out against anti-Semitism on the left right but there's just no you know for anybody who takes Progressive value seriously there's no more room for this either you're for apartheid or you're not either either you're for mass murder or you're not either you're for occupation or you're not and there's no middle ground there's no world in which criticizing any of that is inherently anti-semitic it's only anti-semitic if you you're actually being anti-semitic yeah right exactly you have to explain this distinction every single week every single time yeah so I wanted to show another clip from this with Stacy berett who as I mentioned worked for the ADL for 24 years and also works like Amy uh Amy's the CEO but uh Amy uh but Stacy also works for the jcpa which is the Jewish Council for public affairs so Stacy gives this whole Spiel all about anti-Semitism and conspiracy theories and the Nazis and then here's how she wraps it up Conspiracy Theory shows why anti-Semitism punches up at us sometimes and down at us other times we're we're outside Invaders or infiltrating because we're the ultimate insiders and I guess we can talk about it later but in the very recent history of thousands of years of this hatred think about how the introduction of a Jewish country can figure into that hate system so I just wanted to set a frame for why anti-Semitism isn't just hating people because you know they celebrate their Sabbath on the wrong day so thank you so here what she's doing is saying well we should just think about just putting it out there think about how the first Jewish State fits into this system of hate and anti-Semitism isn't just hating people for their Sabbath it's very clear that she's saying opposing this state is anti-Semitic and part of a hate system yeah so like if I don't support like say you know stealing people's homes which is what Israel's done since its Inception enforcing them flea and committing ethnic cleansing which was you know how Israel was founded uh and then occupying people with the longest running military occupation in the world and then committing mass murder and committing a starvation Siege I first have to before I criticize any of that I have to think about how me criticizing that plays into anti-Semitism yeah you know and also Israel loves anti-Semitism they need it to survive because the only way they Justified their existence as like this Haven for the Jewish people which of course they're not um is by fomenting anti-Semitism around the world they love it they W they they want to be the victims it it's it's their entire victim mentality so she's talking there about like the sort of Insidious nature of the of people who criticize Israel what they're playing into she's projecting it's Israel and its supporters that manufacture that dynamic they need to be victims they need to be constantly facing anti-Semitism to justify what they're doing which is occupying displacing besieging and stealing the indigenous people of that land um the fact that she used to work for the ADL likey that's a hate group they're like they they pretend to be an Anti-Defamation League but they're really an anti- Palestinian uh uh group they're they're just like they're bigots and actually they have a long history of uh of attacking um anybody who supports Palestinian rights uh including black people yeah people of color it's just like I know they call JV J jvp Jewish voice forp a hate group yes the the the head of uh of called also called him a proxy for Iran right I think that having a discussion about anti-Semitism right now is not inherently problematic because I think it can show actually how we have to be speaking out against Israel and what we have to be distinguishing between Israel and Jews or were actually being anti-semitic but if you want to talk about this like AOC you should talk to people at Jewish currents or something or or Jewish voice for peace yeah K you know I I disagree slightly I think we're Jewish people are among the most privileged people in the world uh and seeing all the power they we like the Jewish billionaires wield like getting uh University presidents fired uh encouraging crackdowns on students getting people fired from jobs I'm ready to talk about anti-Semitism after the Israeli occupation is ended you know that's my point is more strategic honestly I think that we can get people who were who are not who are otherwise maybe wouldn't join it I'm not making a moral argument more of a strategic one but so yeah we can agree to disagree on that I I agree with you Aaron I just think that if people feel like they need to address this you don't do it with someone from the ADL and from um a Jewish organization uh Jewish Council for public affairs that's working to get the IH uh adopted because you are perpetuating anti-Semitism when you can flate being a Jew with being a Zionist well I hope a is listening yeah all right Aaron what do we got for Republican suck all right this is one's a little cheap because like this one this guy's so easy such an easy Republican suck um I didn't dig too deep for this week because lindsy Graham everybody he just he's such a reliable source of Republican suck because everything he says is nuts so here he is expounding on all kinds of topics Vladimir Putin Ukraine and of course why we have to keep backing Israel's mass murder campaign in Gaza our poll out today shows a majority of Americans 61% say the US should not send Israel weapons 6 and 10 says Israel should stop or decrease its military actions in Gaza isn't it time for this war to end now given that the tide of public opinion is turning against Israel I think it'd be the the biggest mistake we could I criticize senator turberville for his view of Ukraine let me be straight with you uh Hamas would kill everybody here if they could get here uh Israel is not our enemy they're our Ally well they can't because they're pinned down over there I want them destroyed so they can never come back to hurt Israel or us heah is alive and well so to those Americans who believe pulling the plug on isra now makes us safer you've missed a lot radical Islam wants to Slit the throat of every Jewish person and your throat too so no I want to give weapon uh weapons they need the administration is withholding weapons uh the Trump was a great Ally of Israel if he wins this uh this election he'll have a another great Ally I appreciate what president bid's doing but it's all been so slow so if you don't Iran here's the big takeaway from my trip the IDF Chief told me he's never been more worried about a nuclear breakout regarding the Iranians in is right now he thinks we've lost deterrence he's asking for joint military operations with the United States to convince Iran not to dash toward a nuclear weapon these are the most dangerous times since the 30s don't make the mistakes of the 30s Senator turberville said give Putin what he wants well that's what we did in the 30s that didn't work out pull the plug on Israel that didn't work in World War II it's not going to work now all right so the there a lot there uh in a very you know short clip about a minute and and change uh but he's saying that basically not only is Russia Hitler but so is Hamas and they want to Slit the throats of every single Jewish person really every single person if we don't help Israel slaughter people in Gaza then somehow we're going to fight Hamas over here um and then he says that according to the IDF they want to have a joint operation with the us against Iran which kind of breaking some news there I'm not sure the IDF wanted that to be so public But Lizzy Graham obviously is on board with all of that let me just say as a Jewish person who has visited Gaza before nobody wanted to slip my throat uh I was treated very well uh people did ask me though including young children um do you know like basically they wanted help ending the occupation of their land uh and that's did that make you did that hurt your feelings was that painful for you yes I I accused the all the children uh of of anti-Semitism because they don't like being occupied so how do you think it fits into that system of hate yes yes uh EXA exactly is it worse than Charlottesville for you yeah honestly AOC should have a dialogue between like those people she had on and the children of Gaza and ask like like ask her experts to tell the children of Gaza why they're anti-semitic yeah how they yeah tell them they need to check their their Palestinian privilege but Lindsay Graham I mean uh yeah anyway just unhinged warmongering uh everything's Hitler 1930s let's go to war with Iran let's arm Ukraine to the teeth even though Ukraine is being decimated every time we do that and of course if we don't somehow keep Mass murdering Palestinians and Gaza then we'll have to fight Hamas over here right just like we have to fight Russia over here too if we don't keep arm slitting the throats my god well for isn't that weird let's turn to a story that's actually near de to my heart as people may know I really uh hate sharks and I think there's a lot of shark aganda out there and who would have known that on this issue I actually share the same perspective as Donald Trump here's Donald Trump making an interesting speech um and Aaron it kind of reminds me of what you brought up at the beginning of the show because it raises a real philosophical question much like your uh bathroom stall open door policy raised a philosophical question so here he is talking about kind of a Sophie's choice if you will uh that takes place on a boat so I said let me ask you a question and he said nobody ever asked this question and it must be because of MIT my relationship to MIT very smart he goes I say what would happen if the boat sank from its weight and you're in the boat and you have this tremendously powerful battery and the battery is now underwater and there's a shark that's approximately 10 yards over there by the way a lot of shark attacks lately do you notice that a lot of shark I watched some guys justifying it today well they weren't really that angry they bit off the young lady's leg because of the fact that they were they were not hungry but they misunderstood what who she was these he's calling out shark apologia and I thank him for that people are he said there's no problem with sharks they just didn't really understand a young woman swimming now really got decimated and other people too a lot of shark Texs I said so there's a shark 10 yards away from the boat 10 yards or here do I get electrocuted if the boat is sinking water goes over the battery the boat is sinking do I stay on top of the boat and get electrocuted or do I jump over by the shark and not get electrocuted because I will tell you he didn't know the answer he said you know nobody's ever asked me that question I said I think it's a good question I think there's a lot of electric current coming through that water but you know what I'd do if there was a shark or you get electrocuted I'll take electrocution every single time I'm not getting near the shark I mean I think it's a really interesting question and I I agree although I think electrocution is probably a more inevitable death but I I don't want to go down with sharks I'll say this uh in terms of uh esoteric tangents at campaign rallies Trump has got Biden destroyed I mean you don't see that kind of that that kind of talk at Biden rallies uh he did barely knows where he is and Trump is going deep on really you know what are you want to say about them they're um off the beaten path they're uh they're interesting the Box yeah yeah outside the box you know it's creative creative thinking and I guess it's better than what he usually says with you know which is threatening war with everybody and bashing immigrants I'd rather hear him expound on sharks and I'd rather hear him yeah bash sh bash sharks it's hard to say B sharks yeah and speak out against shark aganda maybe if he focus on that he could actually get my vote by the way when he talked about his great his deep ties with MIT is he talking about Jeffrey Epstein that's a good question you know Jeffrey Epstein had deep ties with MIT or he's probably talking about his his uncle who was a professor at MIT who he loves to invoke to claim he's smart but anyway fascinating questions there from Donald J Trump good for him for stumping a ship's Captain you know you don't hear that every day definitely yeah all right for isn't that terrible we're gonna check in on the Ukraine proxy war see how things are going now the Biden Administration has taken a bunch of steps late that they had previously ruled out because they deemed them to be too dangerous uh when it comes to confronting Russia so many times now the B Administration has said we're not going to do this in Ukraine but then they end up doing it because Ukraine just keeps getting decimated and out of desperation the B Administration says okay fine let's do this so they sent a bunch of weapons they previously had ruled out they ruled out cluster Munitions they ruled out attack thems they ruled out letting Ukraine strike Russia With Us weapons but recently they've done all those things because things are going so bad for Ukraine well now they're taking another step now they're going so far as to arm Ukrainian militias that they previously refused to arm because they were neo-nazis but now with Ukraine running out of people and running out of time the B Administration is saying you know what let's go ahead and arm the Neo-Nazi so here's the headline from The Washington Post us lifts weapons ban on Ukrainian military unit the decision was made following a state department review of the azof Brigade a one time militia now part of Ukraine's National Guard now people who don't know who aav is they are a militia that was formed in 2014 after the US backed to coup uh in Ukraine and a war broke out between the new coup government and ukrainians in the East with the backing of Russia who are rebelling against the new cou government in part because the new coup government basically wanted to wipe out or crack down seriously on Russian culture inside of Ukraine and many people in eastern Ukraine didn't like that and didn't like the overthrow of the government that they voted for uh and didn't like the fact the US was involved in that Coupe and so the asop Battalion was formed as a militia on the front lines to fight the Eastern ukrainians who rebelled uh and the ASA Italian particularly does not like Russians uh and is also was founded by people who are neo-nazis so their founding Commander is a guy named Andre bki and this is what he once said according to the Washington Post Ukraine's purpose is quote to lead the white races of the world in a final Crusade against semil let inter mention which means inferior races uh and his supporters called him white ruler okay so that's bki is the founding commander of azof and he's actually still a higher ranking commander in azof today so after all this comes to light the US actually banned assistance to azof right John Conor the late Congress member spearheaded this effort in Congress and the state department also restricted uh arming you uh as off because they're just they're led by an open Neo-Nazi right well never mind that now the B Administration which you know came to office claiming they oppose Trump's white supremacy all that stuff they have no problem right now arming an openly white supremacist Battalion which has now been incorporated into Ukraine's armed guard and the excuses they're making are really funny they're saying that the AZ off that was led by a Neo-Nazi and was banned for having white supremacist views that's different than the as off that they're arming now this is what the state department said uh on Twitter in response to Eric Sperling who is the head of a group called just foreign policy and Eric Sperling is a former staffer for congress member John Conor who helped push through that legislation that banned as off and this is what the state department said to Eric Sperling fact check for you Eric Sperling US Government never provided support to the npan militia known as AA Battalion in contrast the 12 Special Forces as off Brigade received arms and Equipment after successfully completing necessary Security Forces vetting so I don't know these aof people who were vetted did they read like Robin D'Angelo or Ibraham Kendy I don't know let's go on with what the state department said two key takeaways the two units are not the same despite persistent Russian disinformation to conflate them so the state department is saying that okay you're talking about a different as off not the as off that we're arming the problem is as off it says openly says that it's the same unit that it's always that it always has been it recently celebrated its 10y year anniversary so here for example is a tweet from azof So You see there azof 10 years today azof is 10 years old uh tough battles are ahead of us as off is ready to receive them with honor glory to Ukraine which uh is a slogan that has its Origins actually in alterationist uh Neo-Nazi ukrainians so anyway that's OZO celebrating its own uh 10y year anniversary contradicting the state department which said that asof is different uh it's a new and improved as off yeah new and improved it's different than the one we're arming and anyway that's that's what's happening now that's how the proxy war is going and as a bonus here's one more indication of how badly things are going for Ukraine uh but great for Western sponsors of the proxy war Ukraine is so strapped for cash right now that they're going to be forced to sell off their state assets and basically privatize themselves turn themselves even more over to Western neocons and corporations this is the headline from The New York Times cash strapped Ukraine plans to sell State assets to help fund war effort you know this is a longtime goal of uh neocons who when they go into foreign countries not only to use them against their you know adversaries like Russia but also to turn them into um client states beholden to Western investors so people can make a lot of money this happened in Iraq after the Bush Administration invaded remember uh disaster capitalism the shock Doctrine the term of Naomi Klein same Playbook here Ukraine's been turned into a US proxy so why not turn over the proxy's assets to Western investors so all around just to this uh we get to see a lot of people killed and also uh see people ruined uh financially what's not to love and those are your four basic food groups we hope you're full for this Daniel Levy interview week's guest we are joined by Daniel Levy he is president of the US Middle East project and a former Israeli Peace negotiator under the prime ministers itak Rabin and ihud Barack now a leading critic of the Israeli government [Applause] Daniel Ley thank you so much for joining us pleasure good to be with you as we're recording this there is still a What's going on with the ceasefire? prevailing confusion about the state of the ceasefire proposal on the table Hamas claims that it's accepted what the US has put forward with some modifications the US says that hamas's counterproposals are far too much of a departure from what is on the table and they claim that Israel has accepted the US proposal even though Israeli officials say they haven't so can you help us make sense of what is going on um what is your assessment of whatever the current ceasefire proposal is and who do you see as being the main obstacle yeah I I I can try but beyond a certain point I'm also scratching my head Erin so there has been a kind of gordian not where we have been stuck for months now and at one level it's pretty simple Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu has said I am committed to continuing to prosecute this war he has said a a number of unrealistic unachievable War aims and he has said I'll have a pause sure I can get my hostages out and then I'm going to carry on with the war and the the Hamas position but I think it would be a position that kind of any movement in that situation would take has been well we are interested in a permanent ceasefire the devastation that we have seen in Gaza means why would there be an interest in having a repeat if people remember of November where you had a mass release of of Israelis being held it lasted a eight days and then we saw what we've seen in the last months so could you overcome that on that May 31 speech Biden seemed to lean into the idea that the US had gotten onto the page of a permanent cessation of a sustainable calm that seemed to be the news coming out of his appearance and the proposal that he presented okay a few hours go by it's the Sabbath but that doesn't prevent Netanyahu with his Ultra religious Coalition allies from going on his ex account and tweeting that Israel kind of accepted the bits that it liked but he repeats that he's committed to continuing the war he clarifies that at every opportunity in the intervening days and ever since his Coalition allies are even more categorical in saying no we refuse we reject the deal his own party could ministers and lawmakers do the same the members of his War cabinet who support the deal lots to say by way of criticism of gance and Eisen cot those War cabinet members but they're the ones who supported the deal they quit the government so here you have and there's nothing subtle about this right the entire world has heard this Israeli position but what do the Americans say what does the administration say the administration keeps telling us Israel said yes it's as simple as that all eyes are on Hamas we're only waiting for an answer from Hamas and it's it's almost like they live in this Twilight Zone as if the rest of us have been locked up and not been given access to anything else other than us officials talking points Hamas clarifies really what it had said all along which is unless this is the onramp to a permanent ceasefire we are not moving forward with it so I think what you have here is did this begin as an attempt to put more pressure on n and yahu to tease out the differences inside Israel in the hope that they may lead to getting getting an actual Israeli yes rather than the pretend one that they were talking about I don't know was there this attempt at constructive ambiguity that has a role in diplomacy I see that maybe but in the meantime that's not where we are and the continued American insistence lying to us I I don't see how this is getting us anywhere close to Breaking the impass so one has to fall back on the conclusion that it's simply more comfortable for the administration to play the blame game to be able to tell people we try red we're back in the place where Hamas is the rejectionist even if that's not what we're seeing with our own eyes and hearing and meanwhile you just had this interview Netanyahu's real goal with uh President Joe Biden where he was asked by Time Magazine do you think it's fair to say that Netanyahu is prolonging this war for his own political self-preservation and Biden in a very typical Gaff said I'm not going to comment on that but then immediately commented in the sentence afterwards and said yes I think one would be it's a fair assumption to believe that so I mean do you agree with Biden's second comment that uh Netanyahu is indeed prolonging this for his own self-preservation and if so where do you see him taking this assault this Slaughter in Gaza it it it doesn't exactly take someone with a phenomenal capacity for insight and depth of analysis of the Israeli political reality to draw that conclusion I mean it's it's demonstrably obvious to virtually anyone who's following events there and and you the vast majority of the Israeli commentariat only the kind of die in the wool BBY Camp would say anything different you have a prime minister who is facing Court proceedings which could see him end up in jail he needs to be in the prime minister's office that is literally his get out of G free card he was prime minister when this occurred on October 7th yeah a Hu a huge disaster yeah and terrible terrible things happened he's the Prime Minister he knows that when the war ends he faces the music for that he will have the commissions of inquiry uh and so the war helps keep him in office so it is not exactly a stretch to suggest that this is what one of the things at least that's going on and I also do just want to caution against us getting kind of Trapped In in a place that does not accurately reflect Israel which is I call it kind of bitis where everyone just these things through the person of the Prime Minister there's a that this wouldn't be happening if it were just about BBY but nonetheless that's big in bib's considerations in natan's considerations and so I think what we will see unfortunately is the continuation the the intensification of the ruer operation uh we're seeing other actions of course else wearing Gaza at some stage I do think just that the nature of the Israeli military Mission the the degree of uh attrition the need for respite for the reservists for the Israeli troops mean that you will again have a drawing down of troop numbers but you maybe not see daily mass civilian killing events but you'll continue to see very bad things happening under those circumstances you won't get the uh kind of humanitarian Aid and assistance in which is necessary after the destruction Israel's war so in natany who's schematic this will go on for a long time and I've not even touched on the provocations in the West Bank and we see you know this constant uptick in killings of Palestinians in the West Bank and as long as Gaza continues it's going to be really tense uh Israel hisbah Israel Lebanon on that uh Israeli northern border so besides the Israel's real goal self-serving motives behind Netanyahu what is the ultimate kind of endgame plan for him and for Israel more largely because as he pointed out this isn't just BB so what is the the vision okay so I think one has to divide it up a little bit Katie which is right now I'm not sure that they have that nanyu has a plan of what his morning after looks like they to the extent to which there is an ongoing that predates October 7th of course um Israeli position it's entrench the control it's you know maximum land and and it's it's this Matrix of domination which is going to prevent any Palestinian Freedom rights Etc there there's nothing surprising in that right now inside the governing Coalition I think broadly speaking you have two positions and again they've not really hidden them so one position is uh benv mrid and significant significant cohort of the LI could I again insist including much of the LI could along with Ben and smotrich I think people make a mistake when they just talk about those two ministers uh there is this is a spectrum it's not a a hard divide right and what many of them are saying is we we want the Palestinians out of Gaza we want to resettle Gaza you you saw plans they were they were out in the public domain by uh Israeli government Ministries to push as much of the Palestinian civilian population of Gaza across into Egypt you ethnic cleansing displacement of Palestinians is hardly to 20 24 idea right um me what is what constitutes the Palestinian population of Gaza why do most of them live in refugee camps and have Refugee status these are people who who were forcibly displaced during the knba so the idea is push them out and resettle Gaza now I think nany's position and this is what he's articulated and I think it's the position of of many others in the government uh the other camp in the government if you like is well we're not going that far but Israel is going to maintain a military presence Israel is going to militarily stay in and reoccupy Gaza they say until the process of eliminating Hamas and the word they have used is deradicalization now I understand there's the likelihood of confusion so let me clarify it given all the videos and the images we're seeing coming out of Gaza one might imagine that they mean deradicalization of their own Society but for the sake of clarity they don't they mean deradicalization on the Palestinian side so that's the the position of nanyu which is is kind of turning Gaza into a West Bank into a Janine or a or a or a Hebron uh on steroids for an extended period of time you have another position which is that of the opposition uh the the the opposition within the Zionist Camp um inside Israel uh the the the Centrist parties if you like Gans laid Etc and what they seem to be saying is um Gaza War good you know no criticism of the war itself uh but the problem is you don't have a plan for the morning after I would suggest that their plan for the morning after after is just as Fantastical uh in the negative as in make beliy sense of the term and unpleasant now they're saying well let's get the moderate Palestinians of the PA in with some Europeans and Arabs and they can manage Gaza and what their essentially saying is um let's go back to the status quo anti which is is a regime I think accurately described by Palestinians Israeli human rights ngos amnesty Human Rights Watch in 25 States in their depositions at the international court of justice as meaning the bar of a legal definition of a partti so I think that's that's the Spectrum from kind of um a parth dis with a smiley face through to reup Gaza permanently through to the expulsion eradication Camp I I I I would probably find it very difficult to vote for any of those myself and speaking of um A refuge of scoundrels potential outcomes you have a quote that I thought was interesting you said that uh the peace process is quote The Refuge of Scoundrels who want to maintain the status quo what did you mean by that and how does it apply to where we are right now right so first of all I did an injustice to to my previous answer which is I fail to mention the the there is a plan I don't know who put it together but it's put out under the name of the Israeli Prime Minister's office uh for Gaza day after which is this there the these weird images of Gaza looking like uh a Gulf State with huge car production facilities and the idea is you've raised the whole thing to the ground and now you can kind of build some kind of um it's not high-tech just just a a production Hub there there's a brilliant piece uh by Adam tw's uh in his substack which I'd recommend to to people that talks about this it's uh it's two three four weeks old by now okay uh peace process Refuge of Scoundrels what I mean by that is the the the we we have gotten accustomed to a a diplomatic modus operandi where if you swear your falty to two states in the peace process then you're somehow on the good side and you've done your bit and you've kind of taken the necessary stand it's a p tempkin peace process it has been for an awfully long time last month in May of this year we actually marked the quarter Century anniversary of the formal end of Oslo in terms of the end date that the process set for itself to achieve an outcome on all issues I was there I was involved the the agreement that was reached it was Gaza Jericho first was was the first phase of the implementation of the Declaration of principles signed in September of 1993 on the White House lawn with yrain yaser araa Bill Clinton so in that agreement it said upon entry of the beginnings of the Oslo implementation phase you would have five years to resolve all those outstanding issues that was May 4th 1994 5 years is May 1999 25 years later is May 2024 now that just doesn't work and so what and there's an argument over what was the intentionality behind Oslo was Oslo a way of rearranging the furniture of the occupation was Oslo always intended to get Israel into a place where it could move towards having a Palestinian ban to stand in place was there an evolution on the Israeli side which could have led to a breakthrough we can't do the counterfactual history and and people can argue that one out what we can do with High degree of certainty is look at what has been the the direction of travel and where are we today and where we are today is that anyone who thinks that peace process is the way forward that after all these years of backsliding and things getting so much worse that this is the way to somehow deliver uh decup pales inan rights the undoing of a party that's not serious and so the description I used Daniel as someone who How does peace happen? was involved in the in the so-called peace process I'm gonna actually challenge you to answer your counterfactual because because you were there on the ground and I think we have plenty of evidence of what was really a play you had rabine the so-called you know father of the peace process on the Israeli side saying shortly before he was assassinated by a right-wing Israeli that he foresaw a less than Palestinian State he never wanted to Grant Palestinians full statehood and he explained that if we give palestin in some limited autonomy they'll you know handle policing themselves we won't have to hear complaints from Israeli human rights groups about how we treat Palestinians uh you had Sho benami the former foreign minister of Israel saying that Osa was founded on a neocolonial basis he also said that if he were Palestinian he never would have accepted the Camp David peace off offer in July 2000 so let me ask you just from your own um direct experience I mean was there ever any good faith on the part of the Israeli side to actually reach a sustainable peace outcome that could have respected minimal Palestinian rights okay first of all yes I I set myself up for this question um secondly uh secondly eron you see what you said at the end there um matters which is this minimal Palestinian rights so I think if the question is posed as could Oslo have delivered Justice for Palestinians in particular in regard to um Justice with regard to the nakba yeah no for Palestinian refugees the answer is very simple and it's no yeah could you have had a a a development in which an Israeli leadership may have gone to a place which which approximated de occupation which approximated something that could have resembled a state I'm not comfortable with being so deterministic as to rule that out but the crucial Missing Link here in in the way um that is often framed is Israel was not the only actor and the PLO at that stage was a PLO that that actually carried I would argue majority Palestinian support with it it's not the totally co-opted Palestinian Authority of today so I think one has to what the PLO was demanding then and of course there were Palestinian critics and many of them who didn't go along with it and who correctly foresaw in retrospect and maybe it was obvious at the time where this would lead but when you had a PLO that said we are here to rectify the problem of 1967 and we're the ones who are going to say you can kick 1948 into the long grass then the expectation on the Israeli side has to be judged accordingly so that's why I'm saying that you know could you have had the undo in of the post 67 occupation and perhaps later on a Palestinian movement that said but wait a minute that's not what we were exclusively about what about the structural discrimination of the Palestinian citizens of Israel what about the internally displaced Palestinians in Israel what about the properties taken the the the the land confiscated compensation restitution the right of return so could you have gotten to a place where 67 was resolved and 48 would have come back later look that's not how it played out so likelihood is no for me the the thing that I've reflected an awful lot on over the over the years is and and this would speak to the bad faith on the Israel side the thing I've reflected a lot on is that Israel went into this with a with a very firm insistence that any agreement would say end of conflict and end of claims and the end of claims is designed to close the door on the 48 files okay and that wasn't what we were doing because we were trying to sweep those under the carpet and so you know did you have an insufficiently effective Palestinian negotiating team at the time was this an effort to say well let's just get what we can and then we'll see where this goes but the thing that was never attempted throughout that peace process was to go into something that has been used in other conflict situations which is this whole notion of transitional Justice and Truth and Reconciliation so that was never on the table and to me unfortunately that means that the the likelihood is that the conclusion we have to draw is that actual existing Zionism is incapable of coming to terms with those things is incapable of taking on board what it would mean to actually deal with history recognize Palestinian rights make good on what was done to Palestinian refugees in any way that would be acceptable to Palestinians and that this was built therefore on a very flimsy and I go as far as to say dishonest basis um yeah listen last Will Palestinians have rights? question on this because because I agree that it's it's now sort of it's in the past now it's the peace process is over and there there's limited value in rehashing it but I but I am curious as I understand it the PLO was willing to accept some symbolic compensation for 1948 but certainly was not insisting on the full right of Return of all Palestinian refugees but wanted some sort of acknowledgement of Palestinian suffering uh and the fact that Palestinians were displaced contrary to the foundational myths of of Israel but that simply the Israel government whether it was under labor or Li could just was never going to do that because to acknowledge the nakba would be to acknowledge that Israel's foundational myth is just that a myth that it was founded on ethnic cleansing and they just know Israeli government was prepared to go there and then when it comes to 1967 even there Israel insisted on keeping the major West Bank settlement blocks without offering Palestinians an equal land swap inside 1948 Israel uh and so therefore even there there was a similar refusal to you know Grant Palestinians something that where they could say that they've gotten some recognition of their of their basic rights is that is that a fair assessment it is a fair assessment and um to the extent to which we ever went anywhere near that there was language I was involved in in tabba which was the really the final negotiation in 2000 under the um Barack government when we were already in an election cycle uh yeah the historic record shows that Israel actually said we have to stop these negotiations we're about go to an election and the parties put out a statement saying they've never got closer um the convenient propaganda recording of that is the Palestinians as usual walked away turned down offer and all the rest of it at tabba there was language that moved on that Refugee issue and there was a land swap that moved uh on the territorial issue I don't know if if Barack even would have been endorsed it um we never got there you've never had an Israeli uh position which has come close to that and even that position I would I would I would align with the the um criticism that you know actually if Israel thought that it could get 78% and other it should have grabbed that and and and been generous and thrown other things into the pot and it just couldn't do that and that you know that ultimately has to speak to something foundational um as you've suggested so so where does that leave us that leaves us with um nothing even close to that uh on the table today and I think people who think that you could just go back to that and Palestinians could accept that now um you know sometimes you you can you can rush to a deal you get that deal in place and it unravels sometimes you rush to a deal and and and then one side says okay there there there's plenty that should not have been conceded um and you revisit that and sometimes you don't get the deal and the the Deep inadequacies of what was being discussed get more and more exposed over time and I think that's that's where we are on this um yeah look the other thing is you did H this was a unipolar moment uh if you looking when this happened in the 90s so what else happens in the 90s you actually see the end of Apartheid in South Africa right so for all the uh inequities and and and and structural inequality still today in South Africa you saw Mandela walk free and you saw the apartheid regime end for all the um lack of finality on Northern Ireland you actually saw a power sharing deal and you saw we have not gone back to anything like what Ireland was prior to the Good Friday agreement and that has not happened things have just gotten worse um in Palestine Israel and you know I think a lot of that and you can't understand uh the current situation unless you speak to um the impunity that the US granted Israel you just mentioned Why is the US fueling this? Israel's impunity what is behind the United States's enabling of Israel what does the United States hope to get out of it and what does it get out of it and to hear the rest of the interview please go to useful idiots podcast.com well very grateful to Daniel Levy sharing with us all of his insight and doing so at a very very late time so thank you Daniel for staying up late to bless us with your knowledge yeah and that was great what a get was so excited when I heard we were having him on and you're definitely going to want to become members if you're not already uh subscribers to useful idiots podcast.com because not only do we give you a great Thursday Throwdown but our extended interview with Daniel is pretty fascinating and he touches on how he evolved from being someone who uh was in the IDF to the person he is today all right our website again is useful idiots podcast.com go there support the show keep us going thanks for tuning in we'll see you next time bye thanks so much for listening to and watching useful idiots for extended episodes bonus content and our weekly Thursday Throwdown episode please subscribe at useful idiots podcast.com support the show for free by subscribing on YouTube Rumble and wherever you get your podcast if you like the podcast don't forget to rate and review you can also follow us on Twitter at useful idiot pod thanks for supporting Independent Media we'll see you next time [Music]