Episode 180: The West Memphis Three (An Interview with Dan Stidham) | Suffer the Little Children

>> Laine: This podcast contains descriptions  of violence against children and adult   language and is not suitable for all audiences.  Listener discretion is advised. Hi everyone,   and welcome to Suffer the Little Children, the  podcast giving voices back to the victims of child   abuse murder and their families. I'm your host,  Laine, and this is Episode 180: The West Memphis   Three with Dan Stidham. On the evening of May 5,  1993, three eight year old boys Stevie Branch,   Michael Moore, and Christopher Byers, went  missing in West Memphis, Arkansas. The next day,   in a nearby wooded area, the boys were found  brutally murdered, bound, and submerged in   a drainage ditch. The horrific nature of the  crime shocked the community, and police quickly   arrested three local teenagers, Damien Echols,  Jason Baldwin, and Jessie Misskelley, based on   a coerced false confession, no solid evidence,  and satanic panic. This is the story of three   innocent children whose lives were stolen in an  unspeakable act of violence. It's also the story   of three wrongfully convicted teenagers who spent  18 years in prison one of them on death row, for a   crime they didn't commit, the victims of a flawed  justice system and a community in the grip of   fear. In today's episode, I'm honored to discuss  a case that has gripped me for many years with the   one man who has been involved since the beginning,  Jessie Misskelley's original defense attorney,   case advocate, and author of the recent book,  A Harvest of Innocence. Judge Dan Stidham. This   is our discussion about his book and the tragic  case of the West Memphis Three My introduction to   this case was in 2010, when TruTV's Crime Library  was still online and flourishing. I'd heard about   the West Memphis Three case, but never dug into it  until I read the Crime Library article about it,   which turned many of my perceptions upside  down. This case made me realize that the   American justice system is imperfect and very much  fallible. It made me realize that law enforcement,   the prosecution, and even court judges aren't  always the good guys. Without question, it   ended my fence-sitting on the topic of the death  penalty. Above all else, it made me understand   that at the time, three men were sitting in prison  in Arkansas for a crime they didn't commit, one   of whom faced execution, and the killer of three  little boys had never faced justice. Although this   won't be one of my typical deep dives, I'll give a  brief overview for those unfamiliar with the case. West Memphis Three: Case Overview The West Memphis Three case is a deeply complex  and tragic story involving the brutal murder of   three young boys and the wrongful conviction of  three teenagers. The case has received widespread   attention over the past 31 years, igniting  debates about the criminal justice system, media   influence, false confessions, and the potential  for bias in high- profile cases. On May 5, 1993,   three eight- year- old boys, best friends and Cub  Scouts James Michael Moore, Steven Edward Branch,   and Christopher Mark Byers, were reported missing  in West Memphis, Arkansas. The next day, Michael,   Stevie, and Chris's bodies were discovered in a  wooded area known as Robin Hood Hills. The boys   had been murdered, bound with their shoelaces, and  left underwater in a drainage ditch. The severity   of the injuries, particularly to Christopher  Byers, who had suffered genital mutilation,   led the West Memphis police to suspect that  the killings were part of a satanic ritual.   The murders shocked the small community, and  immediately the pressure was on to find whoever   was responsible. The media took the idea of  satanic involvement and ran with it, which only   added to the public's fear and demand for quick  justice. Within the weeks following the murders,   the police focused their investigation on three  local teenagers. 18- year- old Damien Echols,   16- year- old Jason Baldwin, and 17- year-  old Jessie Misskelley Jr. The three boys were   known to be outsiders, with Damien in particular  standing out due to his interest in the occult   and his unconventional appearance. This made  them easy targets amidst the growing hysteria   surrounding the case. Jessie Misskelley, who had  a reported IQ of 72, was interrogated by police   for hours without a lawyer or his father present.  During this interrogation, he eventually gave a   "confession," telling police what they wanted to  hear, which included implicating Jason and Damien   However, Jessie's confession was riddled with  inconsistencies and factual errors, including   incorrect details about the crime itself, the  crime scene, and the timing of events. Even so,   Chief Inspector Gary Gitchell, when asked how  solid he felt their case was on a scale of   one-to-one charge ten, replied smugly, "Eleven."  The prosecution also built its case around the so-   called confession. The evidence against the three  teenagers was circumstantial at best. There was   no physical evidence whatsoever linking them to  the crime scene. Instead, the prosecution relied   on Jessie's false confession, Damien's interest  in the occult, Jason wearing heavy metal band t   shirts, and the testimony of questionable  witnesses. Meanwhile, heavily prosecution-   biased Judge David Burnett suppressed testimony  from renowned expert witnesses for the defense,   but allowed so- called occult expert Dale Griffis  to testify for the prosecution, despite the man's   PhD being awarded by a mail order university.  In 1994, after two separate trials, all three   defendants were convicted. Jessie Miskelley  Jr. was tried first, convicted, and sentenced   to life plus 40 years. Jason Baldwin received life  without parole. Damien Echols, who the prosecution   considered the ringleader, was sentenced to death.  The convictions were seen by many as a miscarriage   of justice, but at the time the public largely  accepted the verdicts. As the years passed,   more and more doubts about Jessie, Jason, and  Damien's guilt began to surface. Legal experts,   journalists and filmmakers began to scrutinize the  case, uncovering flaws in the investigation and   trial. The 1996 HBO documentary "Paradise Lost:  The Child Murders at Robin Hood Hills" brought the   case to national and international attention. The  film highlighted the lack of physical evidence,   the questionable tactics used by the police,  and the rush to judgment by the community and   the media. Support for the West Memphis  Three grew, with many believing they were   wrongfully convicted due to their status as  outsiders in a conservative community rather   than based on solid evidence. High profile  figures, including musicians and celebrities,   joined the campaign to free them, raising  awareness and funds for their legal defense.   Among the supporters were Pearl Jam's singer,  Eddie Vedder; Natalie Maines of the band then   called the Dixie Chicks; actors Johnny Depp and  Winona Ryder, and many more. In 2007, DNA testing,   which had not been available at the time of  the original trials, revealed that none of the   genetic material found at the crime scene matched  Damien, Jason, or Jessie Instead, a hair found   in the knots used to bind one of the victims  was consistent with the DNA of Terry Hobbs,   who was, at the time of the murders, Stevie  Branch's stepfather. However, this was not   enough to conclusively prove Hobbs's involvement  or to exonerate the three men. After years   of legal battles and increasing pressure from  supporters and advocates, a major breakthrough   occurred in 2011. Instead of granting them a  new trial, in a rare legal maneuver, the West   Memphis Three were allowed to enter Alford pleas.  This type of plea allowed them to maintain their   innocence while acknowledging that the State had  enough evidence to convict them. In exchange,   their sentences were reduced to time served,  and they were released from prison on the spot   after 18 years. No one could explain why, if the  State of Arkansas truly believed Jason, Damien,   and Jessie were responsible for three brutal child  murders, they were fine with letting them walk   out of prison The Alford plea was a bittersweet  resolution. While it allowed the men to regain   their freedom, it also meant that they could  not sue the State for wrongful imprisonment,   and the case remains officially closed, with  their convictions still technically standing.   For a massive number of people, the truth about  who murdered Chris Byers, Michael Moore, and   Stevie Branch in 1993 remains elusive. While some  point to Terry Hobbs as a potential suspect, no   new charges have been brought, and many consider  the case unsolved. The families of the victims   have been divided. All of the parents initially  believed the West Memphis Three were guilty.   Over the years, Chris Byers' stepfather, John Mark  Byers, and Stevie Branch's mother, Pamela Hobbs,   came to believe in the men's innocence. Stevie's  former stepfather, Terry Hobbs, as well as   Michael's parents, Todd and Dana Moore, stand  firm in the belief that Damien, Jessie, and Jason   are guilty. The three men themselves have had to  rebuild their lives after spending their formative   years behind bars. Damien Echols, who was on death  row, has become an advocate for criminal justice   reform, writing books and speaking out about his  experiences. Jason Baldwin co- founded Proclaim   Justice, a non- profit organization in Texas  dedicated to freeing the victims of wrongful   conviction. Jessie Misskelley Jr reportedly lives  a quiet life in West Memphis with his dad. There   are many sources that I highly recommend checking  out if you want all the details on this incredibly   complex case, I'll include links in the show  notes. The Paradise Lost trilogy is required   viewing. The three HBO documentaries were released  in 1996, 2000, and 2011. The deepest dive ive ever   heard was on the podcast, Truth & Justice with  Bob Ruff. Bob dedicated the entire fifth season   of that podcast, over 40 full- length episodes,  to investigating this controversial case himself   to determine if the three convicted teenagers were  guilty or innocent. No matter how you feel about   Bob himself or this case, its impossible to hear  that season and deny that he put more work into   his investigation than the West Memphis police did  theirs. Bob was also part of an Oxygen docuseries   titled The Forgotten West Memphis Three.  Throughout the 31 years since the child murders   in Robin Hood Hills, there has been one staunch  advocate for the West Memphis Three's innocence.   That person is current Judge Dan Stidham, Jessie  Misskelley Jr's original defense attorney,   who represented him before, during, and  after his trial and through multiple appeals,   and he has made good on a promise he made to  Jessie after the unthinkable verdict was rendered:   that he would never abandon him or give up on him.  Judge Stidham's account of the West Memphis Three   story has been untold until he recently released  his book, "A Harvest of Innocence," in which he   pulled no punches in describing his side of the  story. I thought I knew this case inside and out,   but there were a ton of details in this book  that shocked me. If you're at all interested   in the case, I highly recommend reading  this book. I recently had the honor of   interviewing Judge Stidham about his book and  his involvement in the West Memphis Three case.   I'm thrilled to bring you that conversation  now, and I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Interview Part 1 >> Laine: I really appreciate this. I've  been following the case for 13 years. I   just started reading up on it in 2010.  I had heard the name before, you know,   the West Memphis Three, it's obviously a  famous case, but I hadn't really dug into it. >> Laine: And then, of course, as  soon as I did, everything started   coming together. And I've admired you for  a long time for all of your contributions. >> Judge Dan Stidham: That's very kind. >> Laine: And reading the book, it really  came clear how much you actually did and   how much you sacrificed. These guys are  extremely lucky that you were involved.   I think that the three little boys of  course, have to be remembered in all of this. >> Judge Dan Stidham: Absolutely. >> Laine: It's a balance, because  there's six children who were victimized. >> Judge Dan Stidham: It's very  horrible what happened to them,   and I hope we can solve this case.  I still have confidence that we can. >> Laine: Yeah, that's one of the questions  I was going to ask you, because it has been   going on for 30 years now, and it's, well,  31, but, yeah, it's about time, I would say. >> Judge Dan Stidham: It seems like  yesterday to me, which is kind of scary,   but I'm, actually the judge who sits on the  bench in Corning, where we had the trial. >> Laine: Wow. >> Judge Dan Stidham: So, looks a little  bit different from up there. And every   time I go into that courthouse, I look  out at that really small courtroom and   wonder how we did all that with all the  cameras and all the media. And of course,   there wasn't very many people that could  fit in the courtroom itself. But back then,   when I was 30 years old instead of 61 years old,  it just seemed a lot bigger than it does now. >> Laine: Yeah, I bet it did. I'm sure it was  pretty imposing for all of you on that side.   The perspective has to be very, very different  from all of us watching from the outside. It   is a totally different world than what you  experienced and the defendants experienced.   And I was struck by the fact that yours was such  a fresh perspective on what's become such a well-   known. And constantly rehashed case. What made  you decide to write the book 30 years later? >> Judge Dan Stidham: Well, that's a good  question, and I get asked that a lot. I actually   started journaling throughout the trial process  and immediately after the trial, especially   because I woke up the day after Mr. Misskelley was  convicted, and suddenly I didn't anything to do. I   didn't all these large quantities of information  to dissect and read quickly, and I had some time   on my hands, so I started writing, and that way I  could keep track of everything as the years went   by. And the appellate process, of course, took  18 years and 78 days that they were incarcerated. >> Laine: Yeah, that's tragic right there. >> Judge Dan Stidham: Almost two decades. Yes.  I. At that point in 2011, when they were released   through this thing we call an Alfred plea, it  seemed like a victory to me because I got to keep   my promise to my client that I am going to get you  out. And even though I knew the odds were very,   very slim, I was determined to make sure that  he got out of prison, and so the Alfred plea did   allow that to happen, but it was imperfect in that  it left them all three with felony convictions. >> hree with: And no hope of any  restitution. That's the sad part. >> Judge Dan Stidham: Exactly. There  was a couple of other factors that   were involved. The Alford plea,  which I was not an architect of,   didn't even find out about it until  the night before, literally. In fact,   I was pretty sure I was the last one that Mr.  Ellington contacted about what was going on. >> Laine: Oh, interesting. >> Judge Dan Stidham: And he said, you know,  "Be sure and keep this top secret. We don't want   anybody to find out what's going on." And within  ten minutes, CNN was announcing that a mysterious   hearing was taking place at the Craighead County  courthouse the following morning. It didn't stay   top secret very long. I shared the news with  my fiancee, and of course, she was overjoyed. >> Laine: Oh, I'm sure. >> Judge Dan Stidham: So I immediately called John  Philipsborn, who represented Jason Baldwin. And he   and I had become not just colleagues, but good  friends. And because I was puzzled by the fact   that we were really expecting a new trial.  The case had been remanded by the Arkansas   Supreme court, and everybody, including the  state's attorneys, were expecting that we   were going to get a new trial. And suddenly,  without warning, this just -- bam. And when   I called John in San Francisco, I said, hey,  what in the hell is going on? I thought we were   getting new trials. And he said, yeah, it's  happening. I don't like it. It's nauseating,   but it's going to happen. So he was in the middle  of a capital murder trial in California, and the   judge in that case would not let him call Jason  Baldwin and discuss the plea with him. So it was   very frustrating for him as well, no doubt. But  our conversation was literally 45 seconds long,   maybe a minute at most. And he had to get off the  phone because the judge was not real happy about   him not concentrating on what was in front of him.  So I walked into this thing kind of blindfolded. >> Laine: Right. It had to be a surprise. >> Judge Dan Stidham: It was a shock. I became a  witness in 2008, and I was on the witness stand   off and on in 2008 and 2009. I got divorced  in 2008, my 45th birthday. And as I state in   the book, my wife -- and I don't blame her -- she  just was tired of me being obsessed with the case. >> Laine: Yeah. >> Judge Dan Stidham: And she wanted a  divorce, and I didn't want to do that to   our children. But it ultimately happened, and  she blamed the case. And we've worked through   that. It's been a long time ago, and my kids  were very supportive and understanding of what   was going on and the things that happened.  That today is... Of course, the celebrities,   a few of them showed up at the hearing, Eddie  Vedder and Natalie Maines, who worked hard on   the case and donated funds and energy to the case,  which is exactly what we needed to get through. >> Laine: Yeah, you had a lot to do with  every aspect of the case. Just reading your   perspective was so interesting to me because it  was so different from everything that I've read,   seen. I remember that day in August  2011. From the outside perspective,   I was absolutely floored. I had a chalk  marker and I wrote, "WM3 Are Free" on   my car and just drove it all over the place.  It was so exciting and just drumming up that   kind of support for the case. I wanted to  ask you, too. Do you think that without the   "Paradise Lost" documentaries, it would  have gained traction in some way anyway? >> Judge Dan Stidham: No, not at all. If it  hadn't been for the "Paradise Lost" films,   we would have never got to the finish line. And  the irony of that is that the law in Arkansas   is that if anyone objects to the cameras being  in the courtroom, whether it be the prosecution   or the defense, the judge is not allowed to have  the cameras in the courtroom. And we all said no. >> Laine: Oh, that's interesting.  But it wouldn't be the only law   or procedure that someone flaunted in that case. >> Judge Dan Stidham: Well, my situation was I was  30 years old, and the media attention was just so   intense, nationally and internationally, for that  matter. And the last thing I needed was what I   thought would be a distraction in the courtroom.  but Judge Burnett just said, nope, we're doing it.   We're having cameras in the courtroom. They're  going to do an HBO film, and we're doing it.   And so I thought, well, that's what's going to  happen, and there's the first sign that things   were not going to go well. Him being involved  in the case and then allowing the cameras. But   thank God for those cameras, because if it hadn't  been for that first documentary, it got quite a   bit of attention and I wish that it had come out  before the Arkansas Supreme Court worked on the   direct appeal and came down with their ruling,  but it didn't. So we were flabbergasted at the   decision. 7-0. Found out later that there were  some shenanigans about that as well, which I   won't go into specifically because I don't  want to give away everything in the books. >> Laine: Exactly. Read the book. >> Judge Dan Stidham: But, if it hadn't been  for the HBO guys. And then all of a sudden,   Peter Jackson, Brent Walsh, Amy Berg, showed up  and started doing a documentary and they asked   me to participate. And so I did. And I wanted to  do everything I could to help with my client to   get him out of prison. So they were actually had  concluded the film and were in New Zealand editing   the film with Damien Echols helping them edit  from prison. But he soon joined them after the   Alford plea. So they flew back, literally. And we  shot one more scene at the trailer park where Mr.   Misskelley lived, Mr. Misskelley Kelly Sr, and  where Mr. Misskelley Jr was taken from in 1993,   on June 3, when he gave his false confession.  And so, getting back to your original question,   the reason it took so long is the Alford plea.  When I got to the courthouse that next day,   they wouldn't let me into the jury room where  they were holding the West Memphis Three;   I wanted to speak to my client. I hadn't seen  him in some time, and I wanted to visit with   Jason and Damien And the Court security Officer  said, I'm sorry, your honor, but I can't let   you in here without Judge Lazar's permission.  So I had to get Judge Laser's permission. And   I guess I'll spoil this. But he asked me as I  was walking out of his chambers, he said, "Dan,   you're not going to try to derail this train,  are you?" And I said, why would I do that? My   client's going home today. That's been the goal  from the beginning. And so he said, "Okay." And   for years I didn't know why he said that. He  asked me to get permission from Jeff Rosenzweig,   who was Jessie's appellate attorney. And of course  he said, "Fine, sure, go ahead and visit with   him." And as I walked, turned to walk away, he  stopped me and he said, "Hey, Dan." He said, "You   know we were going to get a new trial, right?"  I said, "Yeah, but so why are we doing this?" >> Laine: Right. >> Judge Dan Stidham: And he just kind of shrugged  and I thought, you know, someday perhaps I'll   understand this, but I don't understand it now,  but it seemed like a gift from God at that moment.   So I got upstairs, went into the jury room, and  Damien looked like he had already passed away. I'd   never seen anyone that ashen and cold to the touch  and still be alive. He was nervous that something   was going to go wrong. And of course, we all were,  everyone was. It's one of those things you got to   see to believe because of all the times we got  close before, but didn't quite make the hurdle.   Of course, Jessie's Jessie, He's, has M.R.,  intellectually disabled. And back then we called   it mental retardation. today it's more softly and  gently referred to as MR. He was just happy as he   could be to go home and who could blame him? And  when I got to Jason, Jason immediately said, "Dan,   am I doing the right thing?" And I said, "Yeah,  you're going home to see your mom tonight." I   carried around a lot of guilt about that after I  discovered in the ten years that followed, what   was going on, what was actually occurring. Didn't  understand it, but it seemed like a good idea.   As the months and years went by, I experienced  this horrible bitterness as the truth began to   seep out and seep through. Because I felt cheated  personally because I had been kicked in the teeth   so many times and thrown under the bus by the  Arkansas Supreme Court and by the trial judge   and... The US Supreme court would not grant certs,  and that's not that uncommon. They only hear a   very few amount of cases per year. But I took a  lot of, a lot of blows. Yeah, there were pieces   of me on the battlefield that are still there. So  I became very bitter and it began to come through   in my writing. And Dr. Tim Derning, he was a  forensic psychologist, he got involved in the   case after Eddie Vedder had convened some of the  best lawyers in the country in Seattle. And we   all had a meeting and he decided to help with the  case. And so suddenly we had some funding and some   appellate lawyers to work with because it was just  me, by myself from 1994 to 2000, the year 2000. >> Laine: Wow. >> Judge Dan Stidham: And I couldn't find anyone  in the State of Arkansas willing to represent any   of the clients. Well, the only two that still had  the rule 37 hearings left were Jason and Jessie,   but no one wanted to touch it. It was a  hot potato, politically and otherwise,   and nobody would help out. So finally we've got  counsel from outside the State of Arkansas. I   don't know the details. I never wanted to know,  but Jeff Rosenzweig and Blake Hendrix came on as   local council, and we started reinvestigating  the case with funds from Peter Jackson and the   other celebrities involved. Winona Ryder did a  fundraiser for us in L.A., and so Peter Jackson   spent, gosh, I can't tell you how much he spent,  for doing the film and hiring the experts, but   we literally had the best attorneys and the best  experts you could find. And by the end of the DNA,   the initial round of DNA testing in 2007, we  had excluded the West Memphis Three and included   one of, Terry Hobbs friends, David Jacoby, who  obviously was at the scene because his hair was   found on a tree stump. And then there was a hair  found in the ligatures used on the victim, Michael   Moore. And it was a match, but not a complete  enough match that we could say definitively to   the exclusion of all others, that this was Terry  Hobbs. But it was in the neighborhood, so to   speak. So suddenly he started being investigated  by our investigative team and. And, witnesses   began to recant. And by the end of 2007, it was  pretty much over for the State of Arkansas. But   instead of saying, "Hey, you know what? We made  a mistake. We're sorry, we understand now that   there's no such thing as satanic ritual homicide.  There's never been a single case documented on the   planet. We apologize. And here's some reparations  for the grief we caused you, costing you 18 years   and 78 days of your life. The prime of your  life." Yeah. But instead, they dug in deeper,   they doubled down, and they could find no expert  willing to testify that our experts were wrong. >> Laine: I'll pause here  for a quick sponsor break. Interview Part 2 >> Judge Dan Stidham: The medical examiner  in Arkansas who did the autopsy, Dr. Peretti,   had flunked his national board exams four times. >> Laine: Oh, my gosh. >> Judge Dan Stidham: Before he finally gave  up. And he came to the conclusion that this   was satanic and the injuries were made with  a knife. And I actually did some stalking,   which is not the best thing  for a lawyer, to do. But. >> Laine: But like you said in the book,  you're a ninja, so you can get away with it. >> Judge Dan Stidham: That's right. I had to  be a ninja. And I went to San Francisco and   literally stalked doctor Michael Baden,  who then was considered one of the best   forensic specialists on planet. He had his  own show on HBO. Can't remember. Autopsy. >> Laine: Autopsy. >> Judge Dan Stidham: And He was the guy. So, I  just happened to catch him in the elevator with   a forensic entomologist, which is an -- for, for  laypeople, that's the insect guy who knows how   to calculate time of death by insects. And so I  was glad to meet him. And so there was another   forensic odontologist in the elevator. And on the  way up, I somehow convinced them all to come and   look at these pictures and just point me in the  right direction, and they agreed. So within a   couple of hours of arriving at the scene of the  meeting that they were at, I had three of the   best forensic guys looking at the pictures. And I  remember like it was yesterday, Dr. Michael Baden   picking up the picture of victim Christopher  Byers, whose genitals had been mutilated.   It was just horrible. And he picked up that  picture and he looked at it and he said,   "That's animal predation." He says, "This is not  three teenagers pulling this off. This is not a   satanic ritual. There's nothing satanic about it,  it's animal predation." And we started talking   about what type of animals could cause this.  And turtles were the main culprit discussed.   And of course there were the possibility  of raccoons and coyotes, believe it or not,   and even feral dogs or there's insects that will  feed on bodies, according to the entomologist,   fish, crawfish. That's why I don't have a pet.  'Cause the minute you pass away, you're food. >> Laine: Right. Supposedly the dog is less  inclined to do that than the cat, but... >> Judge Dan Stidham: That's what I understand,  but I don't want to have either. And   so they go for the soft tissue and unfortunately  that's the face, the lips, the ears, the nose,   and genitals. And I had stared at those  photographs for ten years trying to figure out   what made these marks. And we had a volunteer in  the film, "West of Memphis," Peter Jackson's film,   that let an alligator snapping turtle  bite him on the arm. And there was that   triangle shape on his arm, the mark on his  arm with the little dimple where the beaks,   turtles have beaks like a bird, or a bird  of prey, I should say. And it makes a little   indention, like a -- it reminded me of  a Phillips Head screwdriver, actually. >> Laine: Okay. >> Judge Dan Stidham: And so when I saw that I  thought, my God, that's what happened. And in the   movie they actually conduct an experiment that  Dr. Haskins, who was the forensic entomologist   in San Francisco that I met, we talked about  doing experiments in the creek where the bodies   were found. See how long it would take with a  baby pig and see how long it would take with   a camera for the predators to show up and start  feeding on the body. And of course, by the time   "West of Memphis" was filmed, the landscape  had changed. The creek didn't exist. They put   culverts in and bulldozed it. And I noticed the  other day when I was coming back from Nashville   from CrimeCon that some of the trees had started  to grow back on the lot. There were. The, bodies   were discovered. So, I've always wondered what  those people that are staying in those motels,   that are next to the site as, ah, they're looking  to the east. They have any idea what happened all   these years ago just outside the windows?  That's kind, of freaky. So, the next thing,   to answer your question, I know I'm going  down several rabbit holes here at once, but-- >> Laine: That's okay. >> Judge Dan Stidham: Why did it take ten years?  There was a couple of reasons. The number one   being part of the deal was that they had a  suspended imposition of sentence, which meant that   if they got into trouble for any reason, then they  would go back to prison, so... Mr. Misskelley, of   course, wanted to go back to where his father was,  and who could blame him? And with his intellectual   disabilities, he didn't want to go anywhere else.  The Center for the Wrongful Convictions of the   Youth offered to put Mr. Misskelley into a halfway  house for people who were acclimating themselves   after being released for wrongful convictions  for young people. And he declined, of course.   He didn't want to live in Chicago, that far from  his father. I knew he wasn't going to do that. >> Laine: No. >> Judge Dan Stidham: But Peter Jackson actually  offered to buy him a house, a brand new house in   Mississippi, across the river. But Jessie  wouldn't go. So it didn't take long for the   cops to start picking on him. And he drove a  car with no insurance and no driver's license,   no registration, because his girlfriend  had been drinking and she couldn't drive.   And he didn't want her to get in trouble. And  foolishly, she convinced him to do it. And so   he went to jail for something that most  people would have gotten a citation for. >> Laine: Right. >> Judge Dan Stidham: And of course, I was  so angry, I immediately went down there,   made arrangements for him to have an attorney,  actually made a couple of phone calls to people   I knew on the WM3.org website. And they spread the  word around the world. In a matter of 20 minutes,   we'd raised money to pay all his  fines and costs, and he was released. >> Laine: That's awesome. >> Judge Dan Stidham: And I told  them, I said, "Pick on him again.   We'll be right back on you. The world is  watching, so you better leave him alone." >> Laine: Yeah. >> Judge Dan Stidham: So they're still  watching. And that's part of writing the book,   is letting people know the truth about what  happened. I was the only one who was there   from the first day to the last, so I wanted to  get past that. Ten year S.I.S. period. Because   I didn't want to put a target on them because I  heard my book was not going to be well received   in West Memphis and Crittenden County. The West  Memphis police were not going to like it at all,   not that they ever liked me to begin with, but  I, just didn't want to put a target on anybody,   especially Jessie. We actually got  finished with the first draft in 2005,   and I started collaborating with my co author,  Tom McCarthy, who was retired from the publishing   business in New York. And he began to shop  our manuscript around. And all we got was,   "Why? Why would we do that? What could  possibly be new about this case?" And-- >> Laine: They're living under a rock. >> Judge Dan Stidham: I guess they were. And then  just as we were about to self publish, we got   the final manuscript completed, and we're just  about ready to launch, and my son passed away. >> Laine: I'm so sorry. That's just awful. >> Judge Dan Stidham: So, I had a new insight  into-- not exactly what the parents of the three   victims went through, but I certainly got a good  glimpse at it. So it took me quite a while. And   of course, I learned you don't ever get over  something like that. You just learn to live   with it. And at least I got 34 years out of Chris,  whose birthday was the day the kids were released.   I call them kids. They're not kids. They're  middle- aged men. Well, but, his birthday was   the day they were released, August 19. We had  a birthday party for Chris, and he said, "Dad,   this is the best birthday present I ever received,  is watching those kids get out of prison." He was   one of my biggest supporters when it came to the  case. I had two older kids and two younger kids.   They were spaced out. The youngest was ten years  younger than the oldest, and Chris was my second   born. And he was my campaigner. And I ran for  judge and ran for reelection. I had one opponent   over the years, and this is my 24th year on the  bench. So I miss him a lot. There's still bad   days, but after almost three years now, the good  days outweigh the bad. And I still get sad and   feel bad. But I felt that it was important after  that experience to go back and pour the book,   the entire book, through a couple of filters, but  primarily the filter of losing a child to just   make sure I gave the victims and their parents  the respect they deserved, and also to point out   to them that they didn't deserve what they got  from the West Memphis Police and the prosecution   and the criminal justice system here in  Arkansas. I just didn't want to reopen any   wounds for them. So I poured it through that  filter, and I hope I was successful in that. >> Laine: Yeah, it was very  compassionate, I thought. >> Judge Dan Stidham: And I was as hard on myself  as I was anybody in the book. I made mistakes. It   was my first jury trial. So... As first chair.  I'd been involved in a couple as a second chair,   and I'd actually worked on a couple capital  murder cases before, while I was in law school   and also an attempted capital murder case here in  my hometown of Paragould, Arkansas. So it wasn't   like I just got off the turnip truck. And I did  have some experience, but not quite the experience   that I needed to be involved in such a complex  case. I succeeded in getting two of the best   experts on police interrogation techniques and the  polygraph and also what was then just like DNA:   A new and emerging science, of false confessions.  Yeah, over the years, I got to work with some   of the best people doing studies on false  confessions, and they're very, very real. But   back in 1993, no one could wrap their mind around  the fact that someone would confess to something   they didn't do, despite their mental deficits. So  I felt like we should have won at the trial level,   but because of the court's way of muting our  experts who came on their own dime, I didn't   any money to pay them. I did pay for a hotel room  for them the night before. They testified at the   suppression hearing, and they flew straight in  and straight out. They testified at the trial,   but the judge limited their testimony so much  that the jury never got to hear the good stuff. >> Laine: Yeah, very frustrating. >> Judge Dan Stidham: And then there was the jury  misconduct that I don't want to get into in too   much detail because it's one of the "aha" moments  of the case. And also it highlighted one of the   biggest mistakes I made. We thought we were going  to win, so we didn't make a motion for mistrial.   We should have, could have, but we were so afraid  that if we did, the judge would grant it because   he knew he'd messed up, and then we'd find out  later that the jury was going to acquit him; we   wouldn't have been able to live with ourselves. So  we chose not to make the motion and didn't realize   that we could do both at the same time. So that's  just the inexperience, which, you know, I can't go   back and change it, and. But to this day, I still  struggle with watching "Paradise Lost," the first   installment, because watching those courtroom  scenes, the only exciting thing about it is,   I had hair then, now I don't. Very little, I  should say. After that, there was no criminal   proceeding that gave me any pause or discomfort. I  felt like I could tackle the world after that. So   my dad always told me that that's the best way to  learn how to swim, is to get thrown in the lake. >> Laine: Time for another sponsor break. Interview Part 3 >> Laine: Is it the most frustrating case you've  ever had to either preside over or defend someone? >> Judge Dan Stidham: Yes, absolutely. There's  no comparison. And, being a judge now, that's   the part that I miss the most, is trying cases.  But I had a chance to become a full time judge in   2008 as I was getting divorced because I couldn't  be a lawyer in the case anymore because I was a   witness. So I thought, well, I'm not abandoning  my client by participating in this pilot project,   which was very successful. And I'm proud of  the fact that my judicial district ended up   being the model for the entire judicial  system for district courts in Arkansas. >> Laine: That's great. >> Judge Dan Stidham: I'm very proud of  that fact. The other filter I had to pour   this thing through is doctor Derning, who came  in and examined Mr. Misskelley Kelly in 2004,   which was ten years after the conviction. In  six years after I learned that this was animal   predation and not a satanic ritual, he interviewed  Mr. Misskelley and determined that not only was he   what we referred to back then as mentally  retarded, but he wasn't even fit to stand trial.   He could not assist us in defending him, and he  didn't understand what a lawyer was. He thought   my partner and I were cops until about halfway  through the course of the case. And of course,   naturally, at first I assumed he was guilty  because I didn't understand the dynamics of   a false confession. But I do have a degree in  sociology. So when I was referred to Dr. Ofshe,   Richard Ofshe from the University of  California at Berkeley. It's a little   known university out west somewhere. And I say  that jokingly, because he had a real PhD, and-- >> Laine: Oh, not a mail order. >> Judge Dan Stidham: Not a mail order PhD   like the "occult expert" in the  next trial, three weeks later. >> Laine: I can't roll my  eyes hard enough on that one. >> Judge Dan Stidham: That one just baffles me.   And it's probably the best example  of just how biased the judge was. >> Laine: Yes. >> Judge Dan Stidham: In fact, when he  classified Dr. Griffis, who was a retired   police officer from Ohio, when he said he could  testify as an expert, he even used the language,   "Well, even a third grader that can help the  jury understand the issues can be qualified   as an expert." And I thought Dr. Ofshe is not  a third grader. So that was distressing. But   when it came time to write that chapter,  which was one of the goals of my book,   was to explain why Jessie Misskelley confessed,  not just once, but several times. And I sent the   chapter off to doctor durning in California for  him to review to make sure I'd gotten all his   conclusions correctly. And he emailed me back and  said, "Hey, you nailed it. Everything's correct.   You did a good job. All the quotes are right.  And I think you've put it in layman's terms   where anybody can understand," he said, "but,"  he said, "why are you so pissed off?" I said,   "What do you mean?" He said, "When it  comes out in your writing, it's horrible,   you're angry." And I said, "Well, I am angry. They  threw me under the bus. They denied every appeal   that I did. They messed with the jury in both  cases. And," I said, "I'm just bitter about that,   and I'm bitter about the fact that I never got  to retry the case." So I knew that I had to get   over that, and I had to work through that. And  I took a zen- like approach to that problem,   and I took the middle way and decided that I  wasn't going to let this bitterness destroy me,   because it was. It was eating me alive, and it was  creating health problems for me, and this wasn't   good for my soul, so I had to get rid of that. And  I didn't want to come across in the book either,   even though, as I said in the beginning of  the book, I've earned the right to be bitter. >> Laine: You sure have. >> Judge Dan Stidham: I'm no longer  angry because I didn't want to give   them the satisfaction of victimizing me in  that way. And I also wanted to come across   in the book as being not only passionate, but  also believable and reliable. So I removed all   that from it. Some people might disagree,  especially in West Memphis, but I was as   tough on myself as I was everyone else who  made major gaffes and errors in the case. >> Laine: Some of them were on purpose. >> Judge Dan Stidham: Yes, they were. And  then patterns emerged. And before I forget,   let me take this opportunity. And I've done  a lot of podcasts and a lot of interviews,   and most of the time, when I do radio  interviews, I've got five or ten minutes   to try to talk about a 30- year- old case  that still has litigation pending in it. >> Laine: Yeah. >> Judge Dan Stidham: This case is very much  still alive and still relevant. It's not ever   left the headlines in 31 years. I'll even be so  bold as to say it'll never leave the headlines   because it's basically the same thing that  happened in Salem, Massachusetts 300 years ago,   almost exactly 300 years ago. And it's going to  happen again. Because when people are confronted   with an evil that they can't wrap their  mind around and they can't make sense of it,   they are going to turn to the supernatural,  they're going to turn to the boogeyman, because   all they want the community is to feel safe again.  They want this evil that has descended upon their   town to just go away. And the best way to do that  is to find scapegoats. And that's what they did. >> Laine: Well, that's what I wanted to ask you  about, too, is-- So you do think that something   this heinous and unjust could happen now,  2024? Because it seems like this particular   case was a perfect storm in a lot of ways, with  the combination of satanic panic and small town   closed- mindedness and religion and the corruption  in the justice system and all that sort of thing. >> Judge Dan Stidham: It's a classic  good versus evil. And, you know,   the judge is a former prosecutor, and he never  forgot that. I don't know if it actually happened,   but one lawyer, it was said years earlier,  before this trial happened in '93, had told   Judge Burnett in open court, why don't you  just, you and the prosecutors get jerseys   with your names on the back so it'll be obvious to  everyone that you're on the same team. And, I know   who allegedly said it, but I've never asked that  person. But that's the way it was in our case. >> Laine: Yeah, sure was. >> Judge Dan Stidham: There was one point  where I was trying to introduce something   that was obviously inadmissible because it showed  that what happened, the wounds on the bodies,   were not a secret. Everybody in West Memphis knew  the wounds on bodies and it was a police report   and they're not admissible. And prosecutors said,  "We don't care." Then Judge Burnett said, "You   mean you're going to let him introduce a police  report? Are you sure?" And I said, "Your Honor,   they said they had no objection." And he still  asked him the second time, "Are you sure?" And I   said, "Your Honor, how many times do I have to ask  permission to do this?" And he finally relented,   and I was able to show the jury the exhibit. But  you try to make your victories where you can get   them, and sometimes you find them in small places.  But it was just insane how biased the judge was. >> Laine: He certainly was unprofessional  and inappropriate in so many ways. >> Judge Dan Stidham: And he really made no effort  to hide it whatsoever. He even was interviewed by   the press. And the rules are, you're not supposed  to talk about a case that's pending before your   court, especially to the media. And he told  them that he had read a book on satanism, which   broadcasted to every potential juror out there  that this was a satanic ritual homicide, which   the FBI had completely debunked. There's never  been a single case ever documented on the planet. >> Laine: Right. >> Judge Dan Stidham: Are you kidding me?  And the one time that I tried to manipulate   the case in the press by telling  a reporter that Mr. Misskelley had   passed the polygraph exam they gave him and  told him that he was lying his ass off, quote,   unquote. That's what facilitated the  increase in the interrogation process.   When they told him that he flunked the  polygraph and they increased the pressure. >> Laine: It's amazing to me that that's legal. >> Judge Dan Stidham: Well, it is to me,  too. I did an interview with, I think it   was the Daily Mail, and we were talking about.  She said, you know, in our system of justice,   you automatically have an attorney in the room  with you. The police can't even talk to you   unless you have counsel present. And they can't  lie to you. They can't tell you that "We've got   your DNA and we've got this witness," or "we've  got this or that and the other." They can't do   that. But their conviction rate is essentially  the same. In fact, I wrote this down. I said,   "I'm going to use this because you said it." And  I cannot recall her name. She referred to the   confession as "a happy accident," which I thought  that was a great way for her to describe that. >> Laine: It's a Bob Ross quote.  That's what he always called his   little problems in his paintings. He  just turned it into something else. >> Judge Dan Stidham: Oh, really? >> Laine: Yeah. >> Judge Dan Stidham: I didn't know that.  Well, that gives me new perspective. >> Laine: It's a great source. >> Judge Dan Stidham: Wow, that's good  to know. After my book was published,   my wife's daughter was diagnosed with breast  cancer at age 37. And insurance companies will   not pay for mammograms until you reach age 40. But  breast cancer is a young woman's disease as well. >> Laine: Yeah, it sure is. >> Judge Dan Stidham: And by the time she got  the mammogram -- her local doctor had told her   not to worry about the lump in her armpit, near  her breast-- and by the time she went and had the   mammogram done, she was in stage four of cancer.  And she passed away a little over a year ago. So   we lost two children in the past three years. So  it's been tough. But I like the fact that your   podcast is about the victims. The little children,  Suffer the Little Children, because these children   did certainly suffer, and then three teenagers  also suffered. And that's why I called the book,   titled it "A Harvest of Innocence," because it  basically took everyone who was involved. It was   like a virus that spread with the satanic panic  and the judge being on the prosecution team and   the misconduct. Just a lot of things I didn't even  know about until after the trials were over that   I found out later. So what I would like to do  is ask your listeners if they're from the mid   south and know anything about this case. People  are coming forward now. I don't know why they   waited 30 years, but people are coming forward  now and giving me new information. I've almost   accumulated enough information and it corroborates  what's in the book already. So there's a pattern,   a distinct pattern of misconduct on  the part of the police. And of course,   that's imputed to the prosecutor. So go to my  website, danstidham.com, and send me an email   to harvestofinnocence@outlook.com. I'd love  to read your emails and add more information,   because, sometimes the slightest little  thing can be really, really important. >> Laine: Yes. >> Judge Dan Stidham: And with the Arkansas  Supreme court just recently allowing Damien   Echols, who petitioned the court to  conduct some more advanced DNA testing,   the trial court denied it, saying he wasn't a  prisoner and couldn't avail himself of that. >> Laine: There were so many  denials in that one. Yeah. >> Judge Dan Stidham: And they first said  they didn't know where the file was. They   said they burned up in a fire. They said  it was lost in a flood. And then they said   it just was missing. And so they filed a  lawsuit, a Freedom of Information lawsuit,   because they wouldn't respond. And then suddenly  the file magically appeared in the evidence room. >> Laine: Right. >> Judge Dan Stidham: In intact form. We're  still trying to conduct an inventory to see   if everything is there, but it looks like  now that the court has remanded it and said,   "The statute does not say you have to be  incarcerated to do retesting on the evidence." >> Laine: That's fantastic. >> Judge Dan Stidham: They're now  negotiating that, I've heard. I   haven't been able to confirm it  yet because I've been so busy,   I don't know what day it is most of the time. So  I haven't checked in with some of my colleagues,   but I think this is going to be an effort  on behalf of all the West Memphis Three.   And this MVAC DNA extraction method. I got a  personal look at it in Nashville. There's a   gentleman there who does that, and he had the  machine there with him. I got a demonstration. >> Laine: Oh, that's great. >> Judge Dan Stidham: And it was amazing how  this thing worked. It actually reminded me of   a carpet cleaner because it had a little hose  down the side of the vacuum, and it dispensed   the liquid. I don't know if it was saline  solution or what it was. I should have asked,   but it didn't occur to me until after it was  over. But he used a baseball cap. And was, uh,   extracting DNA, and it just literally creates  a suction. And you can see all the material   going up the hose. The hose was clear, and you  can see it being collected in the machine. And   it's the latest technology. And so this partial  Terry Hobbs DNA sample m may be fruitful to us. >> Laine: If they test the knots from the  bindings, his DNA-- the perpetrator's DNA,   let's say-- could be on there from either  touch DNA, skin oils, whatever it is. >> Judge Dan Stidham: And of course, I  hope they test more than that. I hope   they test all the clothing that the kids  were wearing. And of course, as a judge,   I can't get in the middle of all that and  do anything but watch from the sidelines.   But I think we've got a really good  shot at proving who this killer is. >> Laine: Now, another quick  pause to hear from my sponsors. Interview Part 4 >> Judge Dan Stidham:   I have an alternate theory that I discuss in  the book of an over- the- road truck driver   and the crime scene where the kids were last seen  riding their bicycles and their bodies were found   the next day very near there-- you could throw  baseball from the service road to the little ditch   they were found in. And that's the third busiest  interstate highway exchange in the country. And   FedEx has its corporate headquarters across  the river in Memphis because it's the center   of the country. And so they distribute their  packages from Memphis, and I'm sure they have   other hubs as well, but. But there's about eight  to 10,000, 12,000 maybe, maybe as many as 15,000   big rigs that come through that small stretch  of road where Interstates 40 and 55 converge   for about a mile, three quarters of a mile, and  then separate again. And if you're heading west,   you can merge to the right and go to St. Louis  and Chicago. And if you merge to the left,   you can go to Little Rock and then south on 30 to  Dallas, further West on 40 and go all the way to   the east coast. There's literally been dozens of  bodies discovered along the sides of Interstate   40, primarily in Oklahoma and in Arkansas and all  across going west and even east. But the suspect   that I have, who used to be an over- the- road  truck driver, I can put him in the area two years   before the murders. We also have some other child  murders that took place at approximately the same   time as the West Memphis murders took place, that,  as far as I know, they haven't been solved. And   each of the bodies were discovered in water, just  like the three eight- year- olds in West Memphis. >> Laine: There's more than one theory for sure. >> Judge Dan Stidham: Yeah. And I'm not  going to leave any stone unturned. I talk   about this in the book. And the day of the  Alford plea, I was introducing my fiancee,   now wife, Lea Ann, to Eddie Vedder and  Natalie Maines. And court security officer   tapped me on the shoulder and said,  "Do you want to talk to this guy?" And   I turned around and it was John Mark Byers,  who at one time was a suspect in the case. >> Laine: Six foot eight, giant man. >> Judge Dan Stidham: I'm a big guy, but he makes  me look small. And he leaned down and whispered in   my ear, he said, "Promise me you'll get the real  killer. We both know who it is." And of course, he   was referring to Terry Hobbs. And then Pam Hobbs,  the mother of Stevie Branch, came up to me right   behind Mr. Byers and said the same thing. "Promise  me you'll find the real killer." I had hoped to   leave there that day with all this lifted off my  shoulders and the burdens, but how could I say no? >> Laine: Right, especially  since they switched camps. >> Judge Dan Stidham: Yeah. Yeah. They were kind  enough to come over to our side of the situation,   so I told them I would. So I guess  I'll spend the rest of what I have   left of my life searching for the real  killer. And with this advanced DNA,   we got a shot. And I think we have  a shot trying to-- even if we get a   full DNA profile that we can put in CODIS, we  might get lucky or find similar cases, right? >> Laine: There's constantly cases  that are solved by genetic testing,   you know, people who send their DNA  into 23 and Me and things like that. >> Laine: People are getting  caught through their family   members and things like that.  It's amazing what's going on. >> Judge Dan Stidham: And also finding out  that they have children they didn't know about. >> Laine: Surprise. >> Judge Dan Stidham: I've had some  clients who were surprised by that. >> Laine: Oh, wow. >> Judge Dan Stidham: So it's a  good thing. It really is. Genetic,   genealogy is kind of the new thing. That's  how they caught the California rapist. >> Laine: Golden State killer. >> Judge Dan Stidham: Golden State killer.  Yeah. It's just so difficult when it's kids.   And unfortunately for me, I'm married to a state  police supervisor for the Crimes Against Children   division. And she does it every day, all day,  24/7, just like I do my judge thing, 24/7. >> Laine: Wow. >> Judge Dan Stidham: And everything  involves sexual assault or physical   assault of children. And they  get the worst of the worst cases. >> Laine: Well, bless her for doing that. >> Judge Dan Stidham: I think it's starting to  grate on her soul a bit. I'm surprised she's   been able to do it as long as she has. She's  pretty good at compartmentalizing things. I'm   not as good at that as she is. I kind of more  open, and especially when it was grieving. I   had someone point out to me the other day  that I was crying more than she was at her   daughter's funeral. That just, But that's her--  Everybody has their own way of grieving. And it   really bothered me. And I wear my emotions on  my sleeve. And it was tough. It's tough on us   both. But that's just something you never get  over. You just have to learn to live with it. >> Laine: Yeah. I'm sorry you both had to  go through so much in the past few years,   and you've had a very eventful  30 plus years. So at some point,   do you think you'll be getting any  amount of sleep or rest, relaxation? >> Judge Dan Stidham: Well, believe  it or not, when the book was released,   I felt like the world had been lifted off  my shoulders immediately. The minute that it   went live. It took me a while to convince my co-  author, Tom, because he was die hard publisher and   wasn't familiar with self publishing on Amazon.  Took me a while to convince him. But when I did   convince him and we put it on Amazon, it took  off like a rocket. And I now know that there's   a truthful version of what happened. And it took  me most of those ten years waiting on the SIS to   go away, the suspended imposition of sentence.  But all these new things I kept uncovering   about the Alford plea and who was on board and  who wasn't. And of course you read the book,   so you're familiar with what I wrote about.  I was shocked. And the harder I tried to   convince people to talk about it, the more they  didn't want to. They wanted this to go away,   be swept under the rug, and they could hide behind  this Alford plea because they got convictions. And   even though we were able to maintain our  innocence, we still had the convictions. >> Laine: Right. >> Judge Dan Stidham: So it was sort of like  a tie football game. And everybody could claim   they won. And that was another goal in my case,  was to explain that Alford plea and how it came   about. And I hope I was successful in  doing that. I've been told that I was. >> Laine: Yes, definitely. >> Judge Dan Stidham: And the  younger the audience that I speak to,   the more difficult it is. And I don't  allow Alford pleas in my courtrooms. >> Laine: Oh, good. >> Judge Dan Stidham: Because it's either  you did or you didn't. And we'll have a   trial. People will come to me and enter a plea of  guilty and then suddenly say, I didn't do this,   but I'm going to plead guilty just to get it  over with. I said, no, you're not. I'll see you   in a few weeks for trial, because nobody wants to  admit that they did anything. They don't want to   be held accountable. And I'm not going to permit  that because that's what happened in this case. >> Laine: Yeah. >> Judge Dan Stidham: These men  who prosecuted these kids and knew,   when it became so glaringly obvious that they  were innocent, all they had to do was say, "Hey,   you know what? We made a mistake. We got caught  up in a satanic panic, and we messed up. We all   mess up. That's part of the human endeavor."  But instead of paying them reparations and,   and setting aside the convictions, they doubled  down so they could maintain their dignity,   I guess, which seemed to be more important to  them than the truth. So that's what this was   about for me when I stopped and prayed every  morning at, ah, my church during the trial. I   didn't ask to win because there's no winners  in this thing. Nobody won. That's why I call   it the harvest of innocence, because there just,  there's no winners. And all I asked for was, Lord,   please give me truth and justice. And it took  a long time for that prayer to get answered,   and it's still not a perfect solution. But I  was able to keep my promise to get my client   out of prison. And I'm still plugging away and  working on the case and will continue to do so   as long as I'm physically able to do it. And I  am super excited about this new round of testing. >> Laine: Yes, absolutely. I want to commend  you for that promise that you made to Jessie   right after his verdict, that you would  never abandon him. That hit me hard,   you know? And you really have stuck to that in  the book. You humanized him in a way I haven't   seen yet. All I could think the whole time I  was reading whenever you talked about him was   This poor little boy. Because no matter how  old he was then or gets. He has a very small   physical presence. But also the functional age  of his brain. I don't know exactly where it is,   but it's quite a bit younger than  he is, I would imagine it is. >> Judge Dan Stidham: And Dr. Derning stated  in his findings that 95% to 98% of the people   that Mr. Misskelley encounters each day are  intellectually superior to him. I say that   not to make fun of or make him feel bad, but  he just didn't understand what was going on.   He never understood he could just get up and  walk out of the police station at any time. >> Laine: I'm sure they didn't make that known. >> Judge Dan Stidham: No, they didn't. And  they lied to him and they did all the things   that you can't do in the UK. And I actually went  to a couple murder trials when I was in London.   There's no guns over there. I mean, I'm sure  there are a few, but the bad guys have them,   but the police don't carry guns. So  the murder trials are all stabbings,   which I think I'd rather be shot than stabbed. >> Laine: That's a good point. >> Judge Dan Stidham: But I was  amazed at the regalia of the   criminal justice system there. The defendant was  in the back of the courtroom. I don't know if it   was bulletproof glass or if it was plexiglass  or what it was, but he was at the very back   of the courtroom being guarded. And then there  were layers of lawyers and barristers. And the   higher up you were in the echelon, you wore  wigs, and their robes were just ornate. It,   it really kind of stunned me at first.  It just didn't seem normal to me,   but just like anything else, the first time  you do something, it was just, you go, "Wow,   I didn't expect that." But after a few minutes, I  got acclimated to the situation. I thought, wow,   this is really, really interesting to watch.  And when I went into the Old Bailey there to   watch the trials, they have, it's like going to  a theater. They have a balcony in the courtroom. >> Laine: Wow. >> Judge Dan Stidham: For people to   watch the trials. And so I told the  bailiff that I was a judge in Arkansas,   and he gave me a special tour and got me a front  row seat. And so I got the great treatment. >> Laine: Yeah, you got the star treatment. >> Judge Dan Stidham: Not that I  deserved it, but I got it anyway. >> Laine: I think some people  might disagree with you on that. >> Judge Dan Stidham: But I enjoyed seeing  how their system works, and I think we could   benefit a little bit. That's another thing  that I want to do with this case and the   legacy of this case is continue to work for  criminal justice reform. There is no reason   whatsoever why we should not be recording  interrogations from the beginning to the end. >> Laine: Right, exactly. >> Judge Dan Stidham: They had the technology in  1993 to do that. They just chose not to because   they wanted to berate and lie to Mr. Misskelley.  They didn't want anybody to see that. Or he was   there 12 hours. And I'm not submitting that  he was interrogated the entire 12 hours,   but he was there from nine, am, and I  think they locked him up about 9:00 p.m. >> Laine: Wow. >> Judge Dan Stidham: The last time they  talked to him was when they realized,   oh my gosh, this is not going to work.  Because the kids were in school all   day and so was Jason Baldwin. And the kids  were seen riding their bikes at 6:30 p.m.,   and so the deputy prosecutor came over and  read the transcript and said, what's wrong with   you people? I don't know what he said. I wasn't  there. But I can imagine reading that and saying,   "You know, you guys are cops and you're  investigating, interrogating a suspect,   and he tells you the murders happened at noon,  right? And you know, the kids were in school and   Jason Baldwin was in school, and they were last  seen right before dark on the service road by the   interstate where their bodies were recovered the  next day. And you don't think that's important?" >> Laine: Hence the extra  twelve- minute recording. >> Judge Dan Stidham: There's the  other twelve minutes. And of course,   we don't know what time that started because  the officer doesn't put that on the tape. We   don't know what time it ended, so... we  know it was after dark. So when he walks   back into the room during that twelve-  minute period, he starts out with, "Now,   Jessie, earlier you told me this happened at  five or six. Was it five or six or seven or   eight?" Even a kid with MR knows what the  officer wants. And that's seven or eight. >> Laine: Yep. >> Judge Dan Stidham: And you can hear,  when you listen to the audio, the tape,   you can hear Inspector Gitchell just kind  of going like, it's over. We got him. >> Laine: Mr. "eleven out of ten." >> Judge Dan Stidham: Yeah, Mr. eleven out of ten.  And nowhere in the 30 minutes or so of the first   part of the confession that five or six ever come  up. And in their notes, it never come up. So he   immediately went in and manipulated Misskelley,  just like he did through the entire confession.   Steve Drizen, who is an outstanding Attorney  and professor at the University of Northwestern   University in Chicago, is co- founder of the  Center for the Wrongful Convictions of the   Youth. He said, "Jessie Misskelley didn't give  a confession. Gary Gitchell gave a confession." >> Laine: That's for sure. >> Judge Dan Stidham: Mr. Misskelley never  told them anything they didn't already know. >> Laine: Right. They just put it in  order for him to basically agree with. >> Judge Dan Stidham: And I submit  to your listeners that if you are   interrogating someone who claims that a rape  and a murder occurred at 9:00 in the morning,   then that gets changed to , and the officer has  to ask, "Mr. Misskelley, do you know how to tell   time?" That's kind of a red flag. And then at one  point, he asked him if he knows what a penis is! >> Laine: Right. >> Judge Dan Stidham: And even a 17- year- old,  intellectually disabled teenager knows what that   is. So nothing that Mr. Misskelley described  in that interrogation, or any of the subsequent   ones thereafter bore any relationship to  the crime scene in the facts of the case. >> Laine: It just amazes me that some people who  are hell- bent that these three men are guilty,   they'll hang on to those, quote unquote,  "confessions" and just refuse to believe   that they could be false or... But  all the details are so different. >> Laine: It's beyond-- >> Judge Dan Stidham: You said it earlier,  it was the perfect storm with all the satanic   panic. And I'm trying to convince a jury. I  was one of the first lawyers to ever present   a false confession defense to a jury.  And if Judge Burnett hadn't done what   he did during the deliberations, I  think we might have pulled it off. >> Laine: Yeah, that was a shocker. >> Judge Dan Stidham: Of course, I was young and  naive and still thought that the justice system   was about truth and justice, not convictions at  all costs or any cost or through any method. You   know, I still had those rose- colored glasses  from law school on. I went to law school to   find truth and justice. And I wanted to be a  criminal defense lawyer. So I didn't find any   truth and justice in this case. And there still  hasn't been any. All there has been is a release.   And I'll never forget-- my fiancee and I, of  course, Lea Ann and I got married a few years   later. But we went down the elevator to watch the  post game show that the prosecutors were putting   on. And I wasn't familiar with that courthouse  to know where I was going down the elevator.   And I was deposited along with Lea Ann right in  the middle of the prosecutor's interview with   the media and their press, and I just wanted  to melt into the wall. I had no place to go.   There was no way to go but back in the elevator  and go up, and I thought that would appear odd,   so I just thought I'd try to melt into the wall.  And then one of the reporters asked Mr. Ellington,   "Well, if you think they're guilty,  why are you letting them go? If you   think they killed three eight year old kids,  why are you letting them go?" And I thought,   surely he's prepared for that obvious  question. If I had been him, I wouldn't   even have held the press conference. I'd have  just went to my office and shut the door. But, >> Laine: Yeah. >> Judge Dan Stidham: He said, "Well, I  just hope they've rehabilitated themselves." >> Laine: Unbelievable. >> Judge Dan Stidham: That was the  response. And I thought, oh, my gosh,   I can't believe it. And Lonnie Soury, who was  working for primarily the Echols camp but sort   of became the spokesperson and press guy for the  defense team. He looked at me after Ellington and   his deputies went back upstairs, and he said,  "Judge, do you want to say a few words, answer   a few questions?" And I looked at him and I shook  my head, and I said, "No, I'm going to take a pass   on this one." He looked at me and he shook his  head, and he said, "I get it." And I didn't know   enough about what had just happened to even have  a response to any questions. And so I just left   town to get away from the media. I didn't want  to talk about something I didn't fully grasp yet. >> Laine: Right. >> Judge Dan Stidham: And so I actually  missed all the media coverage that took   place in that weekend after the plea. And  so when I went back and started looking at   some of those old news articles that  became obvious what had occurred-- >> Laine: Mhm. >> Judge Dan Stidham: I got a couple  people that speak off the record,   and I stated that they were off the record.  But if what they were telling me was true,   it certainly corroborated other things in the case  that I knew to be true. During that ten years,   I had very detailed billing records of where I was  every minute of the day. During that nine months   that we got to prepare for trial, I had newspaper  articles, I'd saved every newspaper article.   And of course, we had the documentaries to  go through, and the record of the case. So   I triangulated all these sources to make  sure I had the dates correct. There was   one hearing that we held on the issue of mental  retardation and whether the death only could be   imposed on Mr. Misskelley If he was convicted. He  shouldn't have been allowed to stand trial at all. >> Laine: Right. >> Judge Dan Stidham: But I thought  that hearing took place at a different   courthouse than where it was actually  held. And that bothered me that I didn't   remember that? But, of course, it  had been 25 years at that point. >> Laine: Yeah, >> Judge Dan Stidham: I read the newspaper  and looked at my billing records,   and we were in Jonesboro when that happened,  so... I just don't remember it that way. It's   funny how the mind is malleable in that  regard, but, that's why I took such great   care and took plenty of time to make sure  that everything in that book was truthful. >> Laine: Yeah. >> Judge Dan Stidham: I haven't had anyone yet  tell me that there's anything untruthful in there. >> Laine: That's good news. Someone will tell you. >> Judge Dan Stidham: Normally,  they'll immediately point it out,   and I'm sure that I probably somewhere, somehow  got a date wrong or something insignificant wrong,   but, everything else is exactly the  way it happened. And, of course,   I could not talk about what I talk  about in the book at the time,   before we thought we were getting a new trial,  because you don't want to criticize someone that   you're hoping to get a favorable ruling  from someday in order to get a new trial. >> Laine: True. >> Judge Dan Stidham: So I had to keep all this  stuff to myself, even though I haven't talked to--   well, I've talked to one of the documentaries,  Amy, several times on the phone. I don't think   she's read the book yet. I hope they're not angry  with me because I didn't divulge this information   at the time, but I couldn't, or I had to keep it  all bottled up because the client comes first,   and I couldn't discuss any of this stuff  until they were completely out of danger. And,   of course, life happens. In 2016, I  had an opponent for the first time,   and my opponent was dug up by Judge Burnett and my  foes in the Misskelley case. Judge Burnett would   walk around in my courtroom trying to talk people  into running against me right in front of me. >> Laine: Unbelievable. >> Judge Dan Stidham: In 2016, he was  successful, but he should have been more   concerned about his own race because he lost  his Senate seat and I won by 61-39 margin. >> Laine: Well, the truth  will always come to light,   and let's always hope the good guys  win. So I think in that case, you did. >> Judge Dan Stidham: Most of the time,  when I sign a book, at a book signing,   I put "For truth and justice, may they always  prevail." And that's kind of my go- to. And,   of course, if I know someone personally, I'll  add a personal message to that. But that's what   this is about. Truth and justice. And it was  a long time in coming. And when it did arrive,   it was imperfect in many, many ways. And every  time I do a book signing, someone will come up   to me and say, "Well, I was with so- and- so when  this happened." And I said, "What?" And I said,   "Yeah," and I won't go into details because I've  already spoiled enough of the book already. But   Mr. "eleven out of ten," he was quoted in  "Paradise Lost." He was quoted as saying,   "I wish somebody would come and talk to me so I  could explain to them how this happened." And so   after the Alford pleas occurred, a reporter, Sean  Flynn, who was writing an article for GQ magazine,   and Joe Berlinger, who was one of the  documentaries, producers and directors in   the Paradise Lost trilogy. He asked me to kind of  show Sean around. And we met with Mr. Misskelley,   And it was amazing, walking around the  streets of Memphis and people walking up   to Mr. and Misskelley Kelly and say, "I knew you  were innocent. I'm so glad you got out of prison   I've known it for years." And Sean Flynn was  a quick study. And because Mr. "eleven out of   ten" wanted to explain the case and how it really  happened and why they were guilty, didn't return   Mr. Flynn's phone call, and the prosecutor didn't  return a phone call. And one of the detectives,   who's now the sheriff of Greene County, didn't  want to be interviewed, but he did call Mr.   Flynn and say, "Hey, I'm not interested."  So at least he had the decency to do that. >> Laine: Right. >> Judge Dan Stidham: But Sean Flynn summed it  up probably better than anybody could. He said   there was no evidence and this was nothing  but a well told campfire story, because   there is absolutely zero evidence other than  Misskelley's crazy, ridiculous false confession. >> Laine: Yeah. >> Judge Dan Stidham: Which is well- documented  and well- destroyed and dismantled by all of the   experts who came in and testified that the  wounds on the bodies were not ritualistic   killings with a knife. No knives were used.  I remember seeing the video of Werner Spitz   testifying in "West of Memphis" that there  were no signs of knife wounds. This was all   animal predation. And so there were head wounds,  blunt force trauma to the heads of the victims. >> Laine: Right. >> Judge Dan Stidham: But I don't really  think the bindings, they described it   always as being hog tied, and they really  weren't. It was left wrist to left ankle-- >> Laine: Not crossed. >> Judge Dan Stidham: But they weren't crossed  in the back. So they could have just easily   reached down and got the shoestrings in front  of them and got away. They wouldn't be able   to go very fast. But I think those ligatures  were carrying handles that the truck driver   or whoever used to dump the bodies in  the ditch. They weighed about 50 pounds,   which I just find it so disheartening that  even faced with the truth that these folks   wouldn't back down, there's not going to be  any. Even though this was a human atrocity,   countered with another human atrocity of wrongful  convictions of three innocent kids, they wouldn't   back down. They wouldn't do it. And when you tell  a kid who's been in jail for 18 years and 78 days,   "If you just say you did it, you get to go  home." Who can turn that down? I wouldn't have. >> Laine: Time for one last word from my sponsors. Interview Part 5 >> Laine: It sounded like  Jessie did well in prison. >> Judge Dan Stidham: Well, he had  structure for the first time in his   life. He had a place to sleep and three  meals a day and a job. And he thrived,   which was one of the strange ironies of the  case. He didn't deserve to be there, but he   actually thrived in the environment. And the whole  thing is just sad. And the saddest part of all,   of course, is the loss of those three eight- year-  old kids who happened to be in the wrong place at   the wrong time. And with a little bit of luck  and a little bit of grace from the good Lord,   maybe we can solve this thing. I certainly want  to. So we're going to keep on moving forward. >> Laine: That is really good to hear.  I'm so glad. Yeah. Stevie, Christopher,   and Michael deserve their real killer to be  found, taken off the street. That's not even   to mention the fact that Jessie, Jason, and  Damien deserve to be completely exonerated.   And they deserve whatever reparations the state  will give to them because they lost so much time. >> Judge Dan Stidham: They did. And you can't  get that back. And now that I'm 61 instead of 30,   I look at the world differently. And losing  a child changes your perspective on that.   You want to take advantage of every day you're  given on this earth. And I've got a grandson and   three granddaughters who I cherish. And I'm  genuinely excited about watching them grow.   And they're growing fast. I'm sleeping through  the night for the first time in years. In fact,   I get seven or eight hours per night now. My  doctor has experimented with medications and,   uh, I'm taking a time released sleep aid now  that makes me go to sleep and keeps me asleep. >> Laine: That's great. >> Judge Dan Stidham: Instead of tossing and  turning. No nightmares since I published the book. >> Laine: Oh, thank goodness. I  was going to ask you about that. >> Judge Dan Stidham: I came across those  photographs of those three kids the other   day. I was looking for something. And  when you're looking for something,   you always find something else. And I opened  up a three- ring binder, and there they were,   all those photographs again. And I used to, could  sit up in my office and spread those photographs   out on the conference table in my library and  eat a pepperoni pizza, and it wouldn't bother   me. It only started to bother me when trial  was over and I'm suddenly I'm not in combat   anymore. And I'm not trying to make it sound  like I was in combat, like, in military sense,   but I was in combat with the State of Arkansas.  It was a 18 year and 78 day game of chess. It's   actually still going on. That's when it hits you,  is when you're used to consuming vast amounts of   information and making split- second decisions  in the courtroom. Then you wake up the next day,   and it's like, what do I do now? Try to build my  practice back. We almost ended up in a bankruptcy-   type situation because we just devoted so much  time to this case. And luckily, we were able to   avoid that. I was not the most popular lawyer  in the world at the time of the trials because   people in my hometown couldn't understand why I  would agree to represent a kid who was accused   of killing three eight- year- olds. And then I  became the Don Quixote of Paragould, Arkansas,   tilting at windmills that didn't exist. And then  by 2007, when the DNA came out, excluding the   West Memphis Three and including others, suddenly  it's like, "I knew you were right the whole time." >> Laine: Where were you? >> Judge Dan Stidham: Yeah, so it's been. It's  been up and down. And with regard to my ex- wife,   I hold no animosity. We get along  better now than we ever have. >> Laine: Good. >> Judge Dan Stidham: Maybe Jimmy Buffett was  right. Hell, it could be my own damn fault. >> Laine: Well, you were fighting the good fight. >> Judge Dan Stidham: It takes. It takes  a lot of energy. And the last 30 years,   I just blinked. It seemed like it happened, all  this happened yesterday, but life went on. But   I was so obsessed with getting these kids  out of prison I just. In all my spare time,   I had to make a living because I had four  children, a house payment and car payments,   and I had a law practice to attend to. But I never  stopped working on the case. Even after I became a   witness, I became the Head cheerleader for the  case. Until Judge Burnett issued his gag order   that he didn't call a gag order. He told me I'd  be thrown in jail for contempt if I had talk to   the media. And the courtroom they chose for the  rule 37 was the same courtroom they chose for the   Alford plea. And I'm pretty sure... I'm not that  familiar with that courthouse, but I'm pretty sure   if it's not the smallest courtroom they have, it  was one of the smallest, and that was by design,   so the media wouldn't be in there, even though  there was a camera in the courtrooms. Well,   Judge Burnett was long gone by then. It's not  a coincidence that within less than a year,   these kids were out of prison. After he  became a senator, he couldn't be a judge   anymore. And so they reversed Judge Burnett and  appointed Judge Laser. And within a few months,   they're out of prison. Again, it's not perfect,  but at least they're out of prison. And another   reason I wrote the book is I just, in addition  to wanting there to be a truthful story and do   away with all these conspiracy theories and all  these mythologies that exist about the case,   I just didn't want there to be another Jessie  Misskelley in the world. I didn't want anybody   else to suffer this kind of fate. And so by  telling the story, it's basically a case study   on what you're not supposed to do in a criminal  trial. And so I enjoy going around the country and   speaking about the case, and I'm looking forward  to getting out and doing more book signings. I got   a big one coming up in a couple weeks in Little  Rock. And ironically, the first interview I did   after the book came out was from Sweden. We're  selling books everywhere around the world. It's   amazing. Amazon has a footprint virtually  everywhere. We sold books in Japan, Mexico,   the UK, Australia, Canada. The US, of course, is  the biggest market. But just from the interviews I   did in the UK for The Sun and The Daily Mail,  book sales increased 20% almost overnight. >> Laine: Wow. >> Judge Dan Stidham:   So, people have always been fascinated with  this case. And, yeah, I'm not trying to sound   like an idiot, but my guess is you and I won't  be here. In fact, no one that's on the planet   will be here in 300 years. But this could happen  again. And it may not take 300 years, but they'll   still be talking about this case for hundreds  of years. It's one of the cases of the century. >> Laine: Yeah, I'd have to agree  with you on that. What do you think   we could learn from this case to  protect children in the future,   both from being harmed and from being  wrongfully accused or convicted? >> Judge Dan Stidham: Well, what I've learned  about helping kids based on watching my wife   work for the last... we've been together  for off and on for almost 15 years,   and I've watched her do her work. And every April,  they publicize Child Abuse Prevention Month,   and they put pinwheels out everywhere. And they  do all these seminars on people who are supposed   to report child abuse. And apparently  it's working because Arkansas has the   most child abuse reports than any other state  in the country. If you advertise, you know,   you got to call this in. In fact, it's a crime not  to call it in. I'm a mandated reporter myself, and   a lot of these cases go unreported. So in some of  these states that don't have nearly as many cases,   they just sometimes handle this in the family. As  gross and horrendous as that sounds, but that's   how they used to do it in the old days. Somebody  would take a baseball bat and solve the problem,   but that didn't solve the problem with the kid  and all the trauma that they sustained. Of course,   it's not uncommon for her to get child death  reports, and those are the tough ones because   they don't have a voice when they're that young.  And interpreting injuries is difficult. And of   course, the parents are going to deny  most of the time what happened. And-- >> Laine: Of course. >> Judge Dan Stidham: So, it's a sad job.  And like I said, I've watched my wife do   it for years, and it's just like, what are  we accomplishing with all this? It's not,   how do we prevent it? You know, what  was the program they came out with?   There was this dog with the trench  coat. I can't remember his name. >> Laine: McGruff. That's him. >> Judge Dan Stidham: McGruff.  Yeah. The Crime Dog. Yeah. >> Laine: There you go. >> Judge Dan Stidham: You know, stranger danger.  They, they teach that at school. They teach it,   the cops will go visit schools and put on the  program, the DARE program, and to talk about.   But that stuff doesn't work. And the reason  I know it doesn't work is because these kids   fell for it. Whatever ruse was pulled on them.  And I was on my m way to my parents one night,   this was years ago. In fact, I think my son Chris,  who passed away, was with me. And there were   some kids riding their bike down the street, not  supervised, and they were pretty young kids. And   I stopped the truck and rolled down the window,  and I said, "Hey, I've lost my dog. Have you   seen a dog running around?" And they said, "What  color is it?" And I said, "It's yellow. And has   green polka dots." One of the kids said, "Yeah,  I saw that dog. He was running around right over   there," and I obviously didn't ask them to get in  the truck with me and take me over there because I   didn't want to be weird about it. But it's easy  to pick up a kid and kidnap a kid. With all the   human trafficking and sex trafficking that's  going on, I support those groups wholeheartedly   and have friends who run them. And their names  are so long, I can't remember all the names.   The National Association for Prevention of Child  Abuse, I think, is one. They use cutting- edge   technology to track down missing kids. I've  seen it in action, and we're using it now   in search warrants tracking. In fact, I think  the seminar I went to to learn how to do this,   I was the only judge there. And everybody was  surprised that a judge bothered to show up. Part   of it was because my son- in- law was involved  in it. But also I got CLE-- Continuing Legal   Education-- hours for it. But I learned so much.  And before I left the venue, we were in Arkansas.   I signed a search warrant on a murder case  that was unsolved in Paragould. Unfortunately,   it didn't give us any results. But we can actually  do search warrants and drop a pin and pick up what   was going on in the nearest cell tower nearby. And  I'll never forget the case we had not too long ago   where the guy who started this organization called  the local police department here nearby and said,   "Hey, I think I can help you find this kid that  you, that was kidnapped from her home by some   people from, they had driven from Washington  State or Oregon. And this girl jumped out of   her bedroom window and got in the car with these  strangers. They had groomed her on the Internet."   And the police said, "No, we don't need your  help. We got the FBI coming in." And he said,   "Look, I can help you do this if you'll  just give me some basic information." And   finally the Officer did. And within two hours,  they located her in a McDonald's in Kansas. >> Laine: Thank goodness. >> Judge Dan Stidham: So we saved  one. I sign search warrants all   the time and technology changes and it's dramatic. >> Laine: Yeah, it's only getting better.  And like I said, they're solving so many   crimes from the past. It's heartening,  actually. Hopefully this is one of them. >> Judge Dan Stidham: Well, I sure  hope so. Nothing would make me happier,   be able to keep the other two promises that  I made. Unfortunately, Mr. Byers passed away   in a car accident a few years ago. His wife had  already passed away many years ago. And of course,   the Moores were the only family members  that still believe that the West Memphis   Three are guilty. And Mr. Moore did a review  on Amazon that said my book was a fairy tale. >> Laine: Oh, boy. >> Judge Dan Stidham: But the  strange thing is, you know,   there's always been this small group of  real vocal "They did it, they did it,   they did it," people. And they used to stalk me  incessantly and they'd blown up my mailbox twice. >> Laine: That's crazy. >> Judge Dan Stidham: And since the books  come out, I haven't heard a peep. No one's   made any threats. Nobody's said I'm an idiot  or I've got anything wrong. It's just like the   paradigm shifted. Which if that's the case, and  I hope it is, that means I've reached my goals in   writing the book. Yeah, so people can finally  wrap their mind around a false confession and   an Alford plea and see that there's just no  evidence and all the trickery and shenanigans   that were going on. It's apparent. And then  again, my mailbox could get blown up tomorrow. >> Laine: I hope not. >> Judge Dan Stidham: I never leave home without  a credit card and a weapon. So usually I have   two or three within arms reach at all times,  but got very good security here at my home.   It's hard to live in a small town and hide. You  can't hide because of Google Maps and Google. So   you just gotta be safe and be vigilant. But I  really haven't had any problems from the usual   suspects who would harass me. But if you read  my book and you still think they're guilty,   then there's nobody that can convince you  otherwise. Or nothing can convince you otherwise. >> Laine: I agree. I think most people  can tell where the fairy tale is coming   from. And I do not believe it was your  side of the story, that's for sure. >> Judge Dan Stidham: Well, it wasn't, I can  assure you, and I am so glad that the truth is   out there and there's a actual record of what  happened instead of all this crazy conspiracy   stuff. And of course, Damien Echols didn't do  anything to help matters with all his crazy   magick and talk of Wicca and all this other  stuff that people didn't understand. And   I think that's an Elvis Presley quote, people  are scared about things they don't understand. >> Laine: They sure are. >> Judge Dan Stidham: It could be  Bob the painter, too. Happy accident. >> Laine: There you go. >> Judge Dan Stidham: I fiddle around  with painting, too. I just hadn't had   an opportunity to do it in a long time. But I  have lots of happy accidents when I'm painting. >> Laine: That's it. Just turn it into something  else. You did that with this case, I think. It   started out as something very grim, and there's  hope for the first time in possibly 30 years. >> Judge Dan Stidham: And all those publishers  who said this case wasn't relevant are probably   rethinking their position on that. But  I'm glad we actually self published,   because I still have all my life story  rights and copyright to my story,   and the movie that they made, I was actually  supposed to be the lead role in that movie. >> Laine: Oh. >> Judge Dan Stidham: Turned down $100,000  because I didn't want to participate in   something that was going to be a horror flick.  And that's what it was. It wasn't factual and   wasn't even very loosely based on the facts.  This has never been about money for me. It's   been about truth and justice. And if I somehow  turn this into a bestseller, which I'm not that   confident that that'll happen, I'll never be able  to be compensated for all the hours and hours and   hours that were put into this book project and the  case itself. So it's not about money. It's about   people knowing the truth, and they deserve to  know the truth. And so I'm glad to tell my story. >> Laine: That's awesome. If you could go back  to the day you got that phone call asking,   "Do you want to defend this possible child  murderer?" Would you make the same decision? >> Judge Dan Stidham: Yeah, I would. I really  would. And I didn't hesitate to answer that. And   I even say in the book, you know, it would have  been much easier had I turned it down. Of course,   I didn't know what I was getting into at  the time. I thought my client was guilty,   and he was gonna testify against the  other two, but he was incapable of that,   despite all the crazy things the prosecutor did to  try and make him testify. But I really appreciate   the opportunity to be on your podcast, and maybe  at some point down the road, you can have me back. >> Laine: Absolutely. Anytime. >> Judge Dan Stidham: I enjoyed  our conversation. It's nice to be   interviewed by someone who actually  knows a little bit about the case. >> Laine: I'm surprised that's rare. >> Judge Dan Stidham: Well, the people have kind  of heard about it on the peripheral. Strangely,   our biggest audience is 18- to 35- year olds,   and they weren't even born or barely  born at the time of this happened. >> Laine: Right. >> Judge Dan Stidham: This case is  taught in college and law school and   even high schools. I spoke to high  schools that it's in the curriculum. >> Laine: Wow, that's impressive. And  I imagine that the case is probably   everywhere you look on TikTok, so that's  where a lot of them are getting it, too. >> Judge Dan Stidham: Yep. I just want to  get the word out to as many people so that   this never has to happen again. And I had  to teach my kids at an early age to never,   ever, ever. This sounds strange, but  never, ever, ever talk to the police. >> Laine: Right. >> Judge Dan Stidham: You know, because  it's a situation you... There's nothing to   gain from it. Even if you're completely,  totally innocent, like these kids were,   bad things can still happen. You could admit  to being somewhere that was near the crime that   happened. You could inadvertently say something  that casts doubt on your innocence, and the   best thing to do is just not talk to the police.  And that may sound strange coming from a judge. >> Laine: Nope. >> Judge Dan Stidham: But that's what I did.  I taught my kids to not talk to the police.   They were to ask for their lawyer and their  dad. They happened to be the same person. >> Laine: Right. Well, and that's  a good way to help future teenagers   or even children from being wrongfully accused. >> Judge Dan Stidham: Well, thank  you so much for letting me come on,   and I truly, truly enjoyed our conversation. >> Laine: Thank you so much, Judge.  I did, too. And I thank you again   for everything that you've done for  all of these kids. Thank you so much. >> Judge Dan Stidham: Thank you for your  kind words. I appreciate them so much. Outro >> Laine: Massive thanks to Judge Dan Stidham for  taking the time to talk with me. It was an honor   and a privilege to speak with him. Again,  please check out his book, "A Harvest of   Innocence," which is available on Judge Stidham's  website and on Amazon. Again, check out the show   notes for links. That's it for this episode.  Join me next time for another child's story. >> Laine: If you like the show, please follow or  subscribe to Suffer the Little Children on Apple   podcasts, Google podcasts, YouTube, Spotify,  Spreaker, Pandora, iHeartRadio, Stitcher,   or your favorite podcast listening app. And please  leave me a five star rating and a positive review   on your favorite podcast platform. Visit the  website at sufferthelittlechildrenpod.com. You can   support the show by visiting patreon.com/STLCpod,  where you can become a patron for rewards ranging   from a a shout-out by name on the show to  bonus content and exclusive gifts. You can   also support the show at Ko- fi.com/ STLCpod.  Follow the podcast on Facebook and Instagram   at sufferthelittlechildrenpod and on TikTok  @STLCpod. View photos related to today's episode   on Facebook. This podcast is researched, written,  hosted, edited, and produced by Laine. Intro   theme music is by Dreamnote Music, and all music  for the show is licensed from audiojungle.net.   For more information about preventing or  reporting child abuse, visit childhelp.org   or call your area's child abuse hotline. And  remember, if you see something, say something.