Can Taylor Swift win the US election for Kamala Harris? | BBC Americast

we're coming to the end of what has been another enormous week in American politics and in this presidential election the first probably only debate between Donald Trump and carela Harris highlights including accusations that immigrants are eating cats and dogs in Ohio that isn't true by the way and then a childless cat lady dropped a post on Instagram just minutes after that debate finished that's how Taylor Swift signed off her endorsement of kamla Harris she posted alongside a picture of her cuddling her gorgeous cat Benjamin and then she was on stage at the MTV Awards as well this week where she was encouraging people to vote thank the fans so thank you for what you've done and the fact that this is a fan voted award and you voted for this I I appreciate it so much and if you are over 18 please register to vote for something else that's very important coming up the 2024 presidential election I love you all so so much thank you for this moment daa Swift is Big you don't need us to tell you that she's very very very big she's got a very big tour which has already grossed over a billion dollars she's got almost 300 million followers on Instagram she is one of the most photographed most celebrated people on the planet does that mean though that her endorsement of a political candidate will make any difference at all with how people vote or whether people are paying any attention to this election that's what we're going to try and find out welcome to americast americast americast from BBC News hello it's Justin in the worldwide headquarters of americast in London England Sarah here back in the studio in Washington DC and it's Mariana AKA misinformation also in the worldwide headquarters I don't know when we'll stop saying the worldwide headquarters but for now maybe we've done it for the last time anyway I was going to say you can stop when it stops being funny but that was maybe a we while ago that was a long time that was a long time ago I'm going to carry on anyway cuz who cares people expect with me and Mariana it was in the worldwide headquarters wasn't it that you found out the news that Taylor Swift um had endorsed Kamala Harris I was in the spin room in um Philadelphia um as all the presidential surrogates were trying to say you know how well they candidate done in the debate and then suddenly there was a sort of collective gasp intake of breath as everybody saw what had dropped on their Instagram post um if any amicas is listening didn't hear our episode about the presidential debate and Mar reaction to finding out about the Taylor Swift news go back and listen to that cuz it's it's definitely worth it what was say sah I was in the room I was in the room but I was I failed to be properly impressed and I know that cuz I had I had complaints um from americaas listeners and the thing that makes it particularly ging is that the listeners were my daughters they said why were you horrible to Maran I said I wasn't horrible to Mar I'd never be horrible to Maran onion insuff i l disrespectful I'd say in my defense that I did have to go and present another program and I'd also say in my defense and we'll get to this that I actually don't think it'll make much difference but I fully understand that it's important and uh everything Marana says is important and for any amaster who didn't listen to that episode I should remind you of what happened so Taylor Swift posted this picture with her cat on Instagram and she said right I'm going to endorse KLA Harris she called her a warrior and she said I've done my own research I've looked into this and I've made up my mind this is who I want to vote for and she signed it off as a childless cat lady um referring to those comments which have received quite a lot of backlash online from JD Vance Trump's running mate um and then now since then and since we chatted about it Trump has responded there were actually a few clips of him where people were saying to him oh you know do you realize what's happened with Taylor Swift um I think when he was in the spin room but he was hadn't properly responded at that point and but then he's come out to say that you know she'll regret it her fans will regret it and basically that doesn't want it doesn't want it anyways that's sort of his take and it's interesting as well because um she specifically highlighted in her post Taylor Swift how Donald Trump um had shared some AI generated pictures of her supporting him before so you kind of Wonder H why did he do that before if he's not interested in her support um he might argue well it was a bit of a joke or people knew it was AI generated or or whatever um but she specifically said that images shared of her suggesting she was a trump supporter not necessarily the one shared by Trump were the reason that she decided to post I it almost sounded like that yeah that that was the reason why she decided to post it was almost like well Donald Trump if you're going to try and pretend that I'm supporting you using artificial images well I'm going to come out here and tell you what the truth is as though yeah as though he had kind of goed her into it I thought it was really cleverly written um though Justin I mean depending depending on how interesting or not you you find Taylor Swift's intervention into the campaign I think it's worth looking at the text of what she had to say which wasn't you know I demand all of my fans um do as I do and go out and vote for CA Harris she was encouraging people to read up on the issues find out where the candidates stand and principally encouraging people to vote and to make sure that they're registered to vote she wasn't hectoring any of her followers into and voting the same way she's going to yeah and it's interesting that kind of do your own research thing is something that um people who maybe are less keen on Taylor Swift or less keen on the Democrats it's a phrase they quite a lot but actually it felt like she was legitimately trying to say well look into this stuff make up your own mind we do actually have a clip of Donald Trump and JD Vance reacting to Taylor Swift's endorsement from Fox News well I actually like Mrs uh I actually like Mrs Mahomes much better if you want to know the truth she's a she's a big Trump fan I was not a Taylor Swift fan it was just a question of time she couldn't uh you couldn't possibly endorse Biden you look at Biden You couldn't possibly Endor but she's a very liberal person she seems to always endorse a Democrat and she'll prob probably pay a price for it at the uh in the marketplace but no I I like Britney I think Britney's great Britany was got a lot of news last week she's a big she's a big magga fan that's the one I like much better than Taylor Swift we admire Taylor Swift's music but I don't think most Americans whether they like her music or fans of hers or not are going to be influenced by a billionaire celebrity who I think is fundamentally disconnected from the interests and and and the problems of most Americans look when grocery prices go up by 20% it hurts most Americans it doesn't hurt Taylor Swift when housing prices become unaffordable it doesn't affect Taylor Swift or any other billionaire it does affect middleclass Americans all over our country and so I think our pitch to Women Voters is very simple Donald Trump delivered policies that lower the prices of groceries lower the prices of Housing and most importantly Donald Trump delivered Public Safety in our country well I think he's right actually I mean not not necessarily right politically but right in that reaction because I think uh the problem with all of these these endorsements and there' have been loads in the past remember John kery getting Leonardo DiCaprio when he was in his prime he's probably still in his prime who am I to say he's not in his Prim Leonardo DiCaprio but you know he had Barbara strides a load of people it made no difference at all to John kery when he was fighting George W Bush in 2004 and and and the the the other point the key point that Vance makes there is that she does not live the life of ordinary Americans uh and so for for the endorsement to come yes it will probably bring some of her supporters possibly to the polls who might not have uh gone to the polls but it could equally have a net value of zero because it suggests to others hang on a second this is a party of billionaires and people who don't really have anything to do with us and the Democrats have got to really fight against that message this year particularly with kamla Harris as the candidate so I think the net effect if anything uh is zero um let me disagree with you a bit um for a number of reasons there I mean firstly JD Vance is not short of a bobber to himself and you know the billionaires are tending to support the Trump campaign at the moment but Taylor Swift is really quite down to earth in her Public Image compared to Beyonce or Madonna or somebody she she doesn't really give off a big billionaire Vibe even though you actually made you know well over a billion dollars on her latest tour I thought you could hear though JD van being a much clever politician In that clip because he said we all respect Taylor Swift but you Donald Trump saying well I never really liked her if you are just about the most popular Entertainer on the planet do you necessar do politicians want to be slagging her off I mean you know come on let's let let let let let's give some kudos to to to just quote how popular her music is if nothing else and I mean Justin I don't know Justin I think it will open people's minds to the idea of getting involved in the election at all registering to vote for instance because there's no point in firing up a whole bunch of um young people under 30 then turning up at the polls and discovering hey you got to have registered first guys and before you can cast a vote just widening the bandwidth of people who are paying any attention to this election at all is it's good for democracy and I think probably if it's through um Taylor Swifts and dment more likely to help the Democrats yeah and there's another point I'd add not that we're all going up on Justin which is that I think that I agree with you to some extent that some celebrity endorsements perhaps don't matter that much because people think oh well it's just someone who is very rich and famous and they don't really get my life and to be honest I expected them to back that particular person anyways but I think what's crucial here and the thing that we should talk about is that Taylor Swift is is famous for this very committed bunch of followers she has on social media this Swifty fandom um there are other celebrities that don't really have followings like that or fandoms that are active on social media and the benefit to the Harris wols campaign is that that fandom are able to generate loads of their own content memes videos posts they make that they make it for free it cost you nothing and it also is what we call organic so it's stuff that doesn't look like it's sponsored by anyone necessarily it feels like it's coming from real voters real people if you're another young woman for example or just someone in your 20s it feels like it's coming from you know a genuine other voter who might be a bit like you and that stuff keeps popping up on your feed maybe it's at the top of your Tik Tok feed or it's or it's on X or Instagram or wherever it is um and that is the thing I think that is most valuable here to the campaign because Donald Trump already has I mean he he almost has no need for the swifties because he's succeeded in in cultivating what is effectively his own fandom which is a group of people who really support him and generate all kinds of content that's been hugely beneficial to him online so it's almost like the way of going sort of toe-to-toe with Trump's online supporters who do a real really good job of constantly getting him to the top of people's feeds and on their kind of agenda so you're telling me this isn't the equivalent of Clint Eastwood backing whoever did back I think it was Mitt Rumley wasn't it anyway backing a republican some I absolutely get it and I I think I I take your point and I think you may well be right and I may well be wrong but because of the whole social media side of it um the kind of organizational side of it as well which is the point you're making isn't it which I think I probably with my old brain on and my kind of political antenni that are blunted by the way that things used to be done and and if you're right my God it's fascinating isn't it because it's a whole new world let me turn it on its head Justin um and while I make an admission that I'm not that fashionable but I found out who Charlie XCX was this summer when she declared that Cel Harris was brat no I get it it's supposed to be the other way around you're supposed to be a Charlie XX fan and then you take a look at camela Harris because she's been declared to be Brad now but you can do it in reverse I would never have come across Charlie XCX if it wasn't for her interface with um this American presidential election the other way around for swifties or um Charlie f for that matter is to suddenly this name comes across your horizon you go you look into it you discover it's a bit more interesting I've got about three Charlie XX songs on my um shared on a playlist now so you know these things they just extra information comes into your life from a a sphere you didn't expect it to and suddenly you're richer for it do you know the Apple Dance Sarah the Tik Tok Apple Dance see and and and and and it's our it's our TV feed you can't see me mar by the way anyone well done anyone who's looking uh anyone who's listening sorry Justin is literally looking so out of his depth he's thinking I don't know what's going on I found out you're listening teaching the app exactly my daughter by the way I found out from Mariana I found out all these things from Mariana but I I I do think that the the kind of the idea I can absolutely understand that you get a head of steam going and a kind of passions going and people interested and people are not necessarily very interested in politics and you get into the polls and all the rest of it but I just think over and over again in the past the evidence has been and actually the evidence with Taylor Swift as well in the past she took part in a an and an endorsed a candidate in a state election and the candidate didn't win and she endorsed Biden last time around of course Biden did win but I'm not sure it made an awful lot of difference but I I I I take your point so number one I sort of make my point that in the old days I two or three years ago it it didn't work but I see what you're saying that actually now it might Al I should say that and I think your point still stands we don't fully know that the the impact that this will have and I've been for a different podcast why do you hate me USA that comes out later this month I've been hanging out with some of the swifties for Harris that I've chatted about before and I've been messaging them back and forth as well um so they are the people who became involved in this campaign of their own you know they just set up this campaign said right we want to kind of campaign online um they've had the Harris campaign in touch with them it seems clear to me from the conversations they've been having that it is you know the thing that is hugely valuable to that campaign is different posts that are um that they will share that will keep them high up on people's feeds keep them sort of um you know keep all of this stuff quite relevant and being shared and so on but these are not people with political experience a lot of the people I've better to are based in places that you know probably might or will vote Democrat not necessarily in any of the key swing States so this is about how much and we never it's kind of like this impossible question how much stuff on your social media feeds could translate because it's not necessarily being targeted at people in specific swing States although they have told me that some of them are actually going out and canvasing and trying to do a little bit of that sorts of stuff it strikes me that the social media stuff is the most valuable and yet you can't necessarily Target it if it's not paid for if it's just organic at people in a swing state so you know it's a question of whether it whether it's whether they succeed in gaming the algorithm to reach people in say I don't know Pennsylvania or wherever that might be rather than just people in New York or where they live it's a really interesting point this business of reaching people who you wouldn't normally reach in the normal mainstream media and and Trump does that a lot in fact I think we've got some examples of it so he goes out he gets to places um he gets to places that most people are not and are not listening but key specific group um are so this is um Trump talking to the influencer Logan Paul on his YouTube channel I want to talk to you about aliens UFOs uaps the disclosure we've seen in Congress recently it's it's it's confusing and upsetting a lot of Americans because something's going there's something happening there are unidentified aerial phenomena in the sky we don't know what they are do you so it's such a a question I do get a lot and it's such an interesting question I've met with Pilots that look just like you actually okay they have more of a crew cut okay they they look like him and they look like you some of them look like you a little fatter but the these are perfect people okay and they're not you know conspiratorial they're not crazy and they tell me stories that they've seen things that you wouldn't believe these are not people that you would say G that's president of United States I said who is it that's Joe Biden wanting to do an interview I think it's a really important and interesting point because so Logan Paul and then um Bryce Hall who's a Tik Tok star that Trump has also spoken to are both people who appeal to a particular demographic especially of young men but who reach a huge social media audience um and in a similar way to the swifties really are a way of getting people who are not necessarily tuned into the election well I think there's an entire series that you should be doing about um the the the kind of practically men only spaces on the internet and these podcasts and things well but that's a that's a completely different argument I saw some really interesting numbers and I have to admit they're not the BBC's uh I was watching CNN H as I was walking into the studio um they had a big graphic in 2020 Joe Biden won 28% more of the under 30s than Donald Trump did when he stood down he had only 7% um advantage in young voters Kamala Harris has taken over she's doing better but she only has 15 points over Donald Trump in the under 30s so she is almost halfway behind where Joe Biden was in 2020 you wouldn't necessarily think that from looking at the sort of mood of their campaigns and things but there's a lot of work that the Democrats have to do with younger voters um and of course with younger voters it often starts with getting registered in the first place and just grabbing their attention just making sure they know there's an election at all um and what's at stake H and if the Democrats can't really improve their numbers and with young people that's one of the absolute key demographics and they haven't got home but that's one of the things that makes me skeptical they s about all of this is because if you look at young voters you tend to think of them as oh they're kind of people at College having a laugh whatever they're not most young voters aren't at at College most young voters actually are having a pretty tough life particularly after the bout of inflation that Americans just have they care about a lot of the economic things in a sense more than older vs they can't get under the housing ladder um uh and and that of course is a big part of the ca Harris campaign she's really woken up to that as being an important thing so all of those bread and butter kitchen table issues really matter to them and that's why again I think the the the Taylor Swift stuff might just just not quite hit the mark that has to be hit you say that as though you assume anyone who's been struggling with inflation for the last few years or you know is having trouble making ends meet wouldn't vote for carala I'm not saying that at all I'm saying that they would be tempted to say hang on a second you kamla Harris have been in charge while my cost of been through the roof and I can't find anywhere to live I don't care um what billionaire endorses you I don't particularly I like Taylor Swift but what she does politically doesn't interest me what has happened to America interests me and I remember or remember my parents telling me that during the Trump administration because that's another thing a lot of these people don't remember much about the Trump Administration they were very young there they certainly wouldn't have voted in in that election in 2016 they will be saying the things that matter to me love Taylor Swift love a music but the things that matter to me are not impacted At All by what she says okay well if if I was working for the Harris campaign which I don't so this is just a hypothetically what they would say would be no no no don't vote for CA Harris because billionaire Taylor Swift tells you to have a look at Camala Harris because Taylor Swift tells you to and then you will see that she's offering help helped find a deposit for buying your own home um tax credits for uh young families while Donald Trump's offering tax cuts for billionaires is what Democrats would say so you know don't do it cuz Taylor tells you to but find out a bit more about it and they would say that you know Harris is offering far more for young people who are struggling to get on the housing matter the other problem I would say and I've said it a few times is that social media is pretty allergic to policy like it just doesn't policy doesn't get the algorithms going on the whole and it doesn't get the engagement going whereas personalities and Trends and all this kinds of stuff does and so whether it's good or bad for politics and for voters is another question but it's ultimately the way of ensuring that you high up in people's minds and like that's actually if we think about this like the voters that a lot of well the voters that both KLA Harris and Donald Trump are fighting over other people that are feeling a bit sort of like tied out and disillusioned with politics or they might not even be following it at all and you just want to be on their raidar and I think that that's that's the kind of strategy that's being pursued again whether that's necessarily right or wrong is sort of another question but it is the way that social media has kind of made political campaigning now talking what social media does to policy did you see the dog on X where where so Trump is the it's it's a picture of someone a picture of his TV and and there are so many of these is saying the Haitians are eating dogs and cats and then he he he he pans across to the dog who looks genuinely nervous many the so there are so many of these so my Tik Tok feed and then the undercover voters Tik Tok feeds variously and across the political Spectrum so including the people who like Trump have been flooded with some of these videos of pets reacting to the debate and it's like and cats panicking because they're being told they're going to be eaten and then also cats saying um do you remember on Facebook when you used to be able to check in as safe when there was like a terror attack or something I don't know if you remember that so like when there were when there were that kind of period of Terror attacks here in the UK people would check in as safe to show they were safe it's pets saying checked in a safe from Springfield Ohio not eaten but that Sarah that is by the way we should we should say that those claims about eating pets are unfounded and there's not currently any evidence to properly support the widespread allegations ABC anchors me that is we have to tell people that but but also that's the kind of thing for Trump that's bad because it gets Trump on their agenda short but a lot of people seeing that might be the kind of undecided voters who are like oh this Pet's quite funny reacting to that why has he said that but it just does show doesn't it Sarah when you look at the way that politics is is kind of happens in in the modern world I mean that she she goed him into that and the debate and he and he went for it and it was in an answer weirdly I listened back to it all I had realized Iz it was actually in an answer that had started off quite badly for her so she'd been asked this really pointed question by the ABC anchors possibly one of the most pointed of the whole evening why is it that you waited till 6 months before the election before you did anything about the southern Border in effect was the question difficult question for her and he completely blew it up with these dogs and cats and and you know even even if you are a more disciplined candidate than Donald Trump is Sarah the the way in which social media can just destroy what you thought was your carefully HED message is terrifying really have you seen though there's a clip with JD Vance um where he's asked on CNN by Caitlyn Collins who says it was the day before the debate and she says there's no evidence whatsoever for this story about um people killing and eating pets and he basically says I'm not I'm quoting him here but he basically says no there isn't but you know it's we have to say outrageous things like this to get people like you in the mainstream media to cover the issue about um immigration at all so it's fine for us to spread these um lies and stories because Hey look it's got you talking about too that's it we'll be bringing you another episode next week just eight weeks to go now until the presidential election and there will be plenty to talk about remember you can always get the podcast first and in full on BBC sounds bye-bye [Music] he [Music]