Doug Wilson‪@CanonPress‬ & T Russell Hunter‪@AbolitionistsRising‬ ABORTION DEBATE: My Thoughts

I want to talk about just you I'm you asked me for an you asked me for an instance and I gave you one okay yeah but I'm I know that I am the one that gets castigated as the uh ideologue not by me but not by me okay so okay so you're not talking about me so let's just make it about you and I and not sort of defend ourselves by saying well there are bad incrementalist because I'm just being honest with you as a brother I am saying the kind of incrementalist that I oppose is not them I get that but it's you I'm saying you would write and sign laws that God hates and God will oppose and those laws are a bad tutor in the culture they bring the they bring the punishments the judge recently on the Bible dingers podcast or YouTube channel uh they had a fabulous discussion uh with uh Pastor duck Wilson from Moscow Idaho and uh T Russell Hunter um uh as well and so uh this discussion was concerning the idea of abortion right uh obviously both parties would would go against abortion very rigidly right they will be very very rigidly against abortion but it's all about methodology right the that's the that was the discussion of on Bible Digger podcast was concerning methodology so Doug Wilson was is is a incrementalist and H Hunter is a abolitionist obviously they both have the same end goal in sight as far as completely eradicating getting rid of abortion once again the methodology is of subject matter here in which way should we approach this should we approach it from an abolitionist standpoint where it says that all abortion no matter what weak of the pregnancy no matter what should be absolutely gone and eradicated right now or should they be an incrementalist approach where there's sort of progressive steps to this there's sort of a method to the madness if you will that is a discussion that took place on a Bible dig podcast or YouTube channel and I thought it went very well I did watch the whole debate all the way up to sort of the halfway point of the Q&A and I thought the debate went very well the decorum was absolutely fabulous um two brothers in Christ who believe that Christ is King and believe that uh abortion is absolutely disgusting and a horrific thing were able to come together and disagree on something that's obviously important but they disagreed in the fact that I believe was glorifying to God um and they they can have hard strong disagreements but yet not tear each other down I thought that was a very very very positive thing a very good thing and a very uh uh delightful thing to watch but as always I do have a portion of the debate that I did want to interact with I myself would be considered an abolitionist I do believe that abortion should be totally eradicated no matter what week of the pregnancy it should be complely gone obviously there are Exceptions there the only exception that I would consider is the one a tubular pregnancy or a bab you know A baby developing in a spot that's not where it needs to be developing because that will kill the baby eventually and kill the mother obviously you would have to abort that child in that instance but that is the only exception that I would give um I don't give exceptions to incest I don't give exceptions to uh rape I don't give exceptions to any of those uh Concepts right uh so uh that will that will cause an abortion or cause a preg should I say but certainly um I would definitely outside of those that one exception that I said I definitely would fall on the Abolitionist side but all that said let's get into this uh this video I don't want to waste too much time but as always if you have yet to watch the video why don't you go over to the Bible dingers podcast YouTube channel watch the debate come back to this channel comment in the comment section and let me know how you think the debate went with that said let's get into this video all right so the segment of the debate this is sort of the open discussion between Hunter and uh Wilson and so these two are now engaging each other on the subject matter of abolition abolitionist versus incrementalist and so um uh concerning abortion and so this is the portion it's about 29 minutes in and so let's see what this discussion uh has to say at this portion The Taking of human life in the womb the same way we we treat it um uh for those who are already born those who are out and walking about uh but let's make an easy case let's say let's say there's a a woman who's got a medical degree she's an obgyn and she's had three abortions herself okay uh do I believe that that such a person should be in in a just Society such a person should be charged with murder for obtaining AB abortion yes I do okay so uh a person with in that position should be charged with murder if I signed a bill that um waved any right of charging any mother at all you know let's say there was a a car out that said no no woman is going to be charged with murder under this bill okay would I would I sign that Bill yes and you say but that means that woman is going to get off scottf free she you know she's going to get off scott free I say yes but getting off scotf free now she's getting off scotf free if I don't sign the bill and she's getting off Scot free if I do sign the bill but if I sign the bill the baby's saved now I what I don't want to do is tell the sorts of lies that sort of pour the concrete so that this uh it becomes Unthinkable ever in the future to consider women who are pregnant as moral agents who are responsible to love protect and care for their unborn child no they're women are moral agents and they should be treated like moral agents and the law should treat them like moral agents and the goal should be to get the law to treat them like moral agents but laws are not just laws are not just uh things that make people do things laws also instruct people exactly it's and so yeah I get what Doug Wilson is saying that his whole emphasis is to say the baby um regardless if the bill says that the mother will be held responsible legally responsible as a and can be tried as a murderer um I get that but once again I think that goes against the grain biblically right I think that goes same biblically biblically speaking murders are to be held accountable um and we should have that standard uh we should not allow the the environmental uh concern so to speak to dictate how we go about things now to Doug Wilson's defense he did say that if there was an abolitionist Bill to pass his desk if he was a legislator and there was an abolitionist Bill to pass across his desk he would certainly sign it but what Doug Wilson is is concerned is that no but that won't happen right that wouldn't happen because according to Doug Wilson and many other incrementalist the Abolitionist approach is too aggressive it's quote quote in some capacity I guess not necessarily quoting Doug Wilson but some incrementalist would say that it's a too radical approach that it's sort of offputting or turns off the legislator that has the opportunity to uh sign the bill because that legislator is more concerned about the the outrage that may come about because of such an a Hardline bill being passed while all that being that that may be the case but once again as a Christian that should not be what we're concerned about we should be concerned more about saving babies and holding people responsible for what they did also like in this heartbeat bill um it does say that the doctors can be held responsible if they violate the six week protocol of of the pregnancy right um the harby bill says that any pregnancy past 6 weeks cannot be aborted um but if the doctor aborts a baby maybe the fourth week of the pregnancy uh then they could be responsible but at the same time it doesn't hold the parent responsible the mother responsible for their action and that's the problem right uh all parties involved should be held morally responsible um and and be and be held so obviously Doug Wilson would say yes to God in in in the eyes of God that person is held responsible for murdering their child but at the same time now in this world that we living in that wouldn't be the case right that would not be the case but um let's see how uh Mr Mr Hunter responds one of our main points like you believe the wall is a tutor right correct I agree AG sign the bill you would sign and declare as governing authority of a state or the President says you will not be punished if you sacrifice your child maybe later but you won't so how does that tutor the culture so if the if the laws against murder are not executed swiftly do not the hearts of the children of men run to do evil yeah Ecclesiastes 811 yep right eastes why why do you go why do you disagree with that verse I don't I don't well no God if he says do not pervert Justice writing a bill that says in the event that you murder a child in the womb you will not be punished where punishment is not speedily executed upon the criminal there the heart of man is filled to do evil that is true if I don't find bill that's that's true if I don't sign the bill and that's true if I do sign the bill the woman the woman's getting with it both cases no so yeah but I think what Hunter is saying is that if we don't have a bill in place that sort of Tutors or directs the individual to not do that right so you have a law in place that's acting as a tutor just like God's Commandments and laws was a tutor for us to know what right wrong what right is and what wrong is right these These are sort of rules in place to sort of give us the guard rail to stay within proper boundaries but what Hunter is saying is that if we don't have a a rule just outright ban abortion all together type of law in place then people are able to go outside of those guard rails and they're able to do things uh permissive how they ever how they feel and if there's no law in place that says that that woman who goes and gets said abortion um if there's no rules in place that said that that woman will be held accountable will be held as a murderer then she can go do what she wants she's going to be flipping about it if there if she can't get it like at a hospital she's going to go through the back alley to do it on a black market or whatever it is right Black Market whatever I might have said that wrong but my point is is that there is no rules in place that holds that person accountable for their actions and I think that's what Hunter is saying is why not put a rule in place or a law in place that totally Outlaws abortion and and and treats the the offenders as as criminals so that they won't even consider doing it and if they do consider it and if they go ahead and do it they will be punished for it that's what Hunter is saying there no if you sign an so you said You' sign an abolition bill so an abolition bill you sign and says if you with malice of forethought terminate a child in the womb you will be facing murder charges and then that gets put in the law and it gets put in the newspapers and all the 10-year-old girls and boys read it and they go wow the governing authorities think that abortion is murder Thou shalt not murder I'm not going to do and that tutoring they may still murder against the law like people do but the tutoring is justice is being established abortion is murder don't do it but if you sign the bill that you're talking about it says listen if you're gonna murder you got to do it before cardiac activity and you got to have this excuse or this kind of the baby was conceived in this way and in the event that you do it there's no punishment so the tutor of that law is uh not Thou shalt not murder it's like right now for the next year or until we change this until we Smashmouth our way to the next thing right now you can murder that's the effect of that law and outside of the you're you're looking at it from like what will save babies the most looking at it from the perspective of like what is obedient to God what does God want most does God want you signing a bill that shows partiality to some people over other people does God want you signing a bill that acquits the guilty does God want you signing a bill that explicitly denies the government a sword of justice and said government can't do it it prohibits I'd say it all perverts justice so so here's the thing all right so we're gonna let Doug respond to Hunter's uh argument uh response to him but I do believe to defend Doug Wilson I do believe that Doug Wilson would say that it's not okay to murder your baby at no time but what douve Wilson is saying is that all that said it is reasonable to to say that well let's get something in place fundamentally regardless if it's a heartbeat bill or abolition Bill the heartbeat bill is something right it's we're we're making gr we're making ground we're take we're getting somewhere with this with the Harvey Bill we may not be at the goal end of totally eradicating abortion but there are some some steps that are being made here that's what Doug Wilson is saying so I think that uh so Hunter I think Hunter may be sort of strawmanning Doug's position a little bit not saying uh in that that Doug Wilson he doesn't necessarily believe that uh go Falls in line with the the implications of such a law but what Doug Wilson is saying is that we're getting somewhere right implications being that someone may be allowed to murder within that first four week before the heartbeat is established right but Doug Wilson would disagree with that Doug Wilson would say no they shouldn't be a m matter they shouldn't be allowed to murder at no week at no time right they should be all they shouldn't be allowed to get abortion at no time but what Doug Wilson is like but we're getting somewhere if we at least stop it at six weeks right and that's typically the incrementalist argumentation right and so that that that that's the position that Doug I don't think he would say once again that yeah go ahead and murder any go ahead and murder your baby 4 weeks in you know I don't think Doug Wilson would say that he would say at no time should you murder but at the very least we're getting somewhere with this Harvey Bill saying that you can't murder after six weeks right so that I think that's what Doug Wilson is saying if I were to sign an abolitionist bill and I would so I would therefore invite you to call me an abolitionist right we we would have an intermural disagree Justice and only if you did Justice and only Justice I'd call you an abolitionist no I I I'd sign an abolitionist bill you get it to my desk I'll sign it okay okay so if if I do that I can pretty much guarantee whatever state I'm in if I sign an abolition bill then there'd be a total complete freak out from the progressive left okay actually probably they're not they're not sovereign and they don't have any power right we're not trying to pre please the progressive left I'm making a I'm making a different point okay um the I don't care about the freak out uh in fact I I would expect the freakout all I'm saying is I believe that if I signed simply signed an abolition Bill there'd be a total freak out from the other side because we're we're going after their precious amen abortion is their blood Sacrament okay and the abolition Bill targets that and is a bullseye there okay all I'm saying is that if I signed a heartbeat bill and the kind of signing statement that I would issue alongside of it I believe I could get the same freak out no you're you're you're telling them we're gonna leave your blood Sacrament in place oh they but yes well they might freak out to seek funds oh he's he's doing something but you leave their blood Sacrament in place well it's okay and they're not going to get in trouble no the the point is that um put it this way if I issued if I signed the heartbeat bill and the signing statement uh I believe that the progressive left for whom abortion is their blood Sacrament they would believe me that I'm coming after them my abolitionist friends don't believe me that you know they they don't they think they may not they may say they do but um they might say yeah they've been doing this they've been smashing their mouth like this for 52 years yeah they're going to do it like I I don't I just don't believe but they I would say uh this has not been a 52-year thing so the um the you don't think the Inc criminalists have been wanting to abolish abortion I think the incrementalist well there's a wide there's always been a wide range of incrementalism there there are people that I think are true blue and there people that I think people like you people people like you just just make it people like you people like me like you don't think that there's been people um you know passing laws that are filled with things that God actually despises and then therefore God hates those laws but they've always been attaching like um platitudes like oh babies are made in the image of God and they're precious and we we want to eradicate abortion but we're not doing that now in our laws in our laws what we're actually saying is you're allowed to murder if you I would say this the pro yeah and I would agree with hunch on this is that within our laws now even with the heartbeat bill in place we're allowed to murder right the woman is allowed to murder if they can if they know that they're pregnant within the first four to five weeks of their pregnancy which a lot of women do right a lot of women are able to detect know that by missing their menstrual cycle they are they have the they have the right according to law that's on books right now to go and get a a to abort their child right and so that's that's the that's the tough one that the incrementalist have to deal with right that's the hard pill that they have to swallow is that is there really any effect is there really any type of um effect that taking place if if a child is if a woman is protect uh if a woman sees that she's pregnant or knows she's pregnant within four weeks she can still go ahead and do her thing right and get an abortion is there any grounds that are being made per se you know in this debate Doug Wilson said that he believes there is grounds being made as far as saving babies um but is there really at the end of the day if people still have the Liberty to to to go out and do these things is there really grounds being made right um my position is that from a I think from a uh position Christian Position will be correctly aligned with a Desiring to get rid of of it any law that we go for should be to rid of it this Progressive idea of slowly getting there is can be a hindrance in some capacity right it could be a hindrance and I think that's difficult I think that's something that's problematic um to to say but all in all I did think the debate went very well I thought the debate went very satisfying and once again Big Ups to Bible Dinger for putting on this conversation uh two prominent voices in this area of of abortion of fighting against abortion and so I do appreciate their their the work uh that comes with reaching out to these guys aligning schedules and all that stuff that stuff is hard uh from one who does a whole bunch of debates and uh and interviews and things i s myself on the gospel truth that's a very difficult thing so I don't think a lot of people uh really understand how difficult that is that's really hard to get people aligned especially guys like Doug Wilson and Mr Hunter who are a really busy guys guys that are continuously doing something every day their schedule is full and so um it could be quite cumbersome so that's why I appreciate Bible Dinger and their efforts to try to get this done all that said once again um if you have you have to do so make sure you go over to the Bible Dinger YouTube channel and watch the debate yourself and let me know what you think comment in the comments below uh what you think of this uh discussion and some of the the the goods and the bads the stuff you did and didn't like I would love to hear from you all right with that said if you have yet to do so make sure you subscribe to the gospel truth and hit that notification Bell so miss only shows that are come up in the future may God bless you and may God keep you