RICHARD GRENELL: Trump Ally - Europe Should Pay More for Ukraine Defence | WELT Interview

Intro Mr. Ambassador, you are considered as one of  Donald Trump's close confidants and you've   defended him in the past years. And now  there's a discussion ongoing, if you will   become the next secretary of state. How come on,  if that's going to happen. We got it. We'll look,   we've got an election. We're concentrating  on the election. If you know Donald Trump,   you know that he is concentrating on this  election. And so all of that is just silly   talk right now. It's what reporters do. They like  to figure out who's in and who's out. You know,   it the reality is, is I tell my European friends  and I consider you a European friend, you know   exactly what you're going to get from Donald  Trump, exactly what you got in the first term.   There's no surprises. But would you think German  politicians would like you to become secretary of   state? Underdog? I don't care what they think.  This is about America. Look, I have this belief   that when we follow Donald Trump's lead and we  put America first, just like every other country   puts themself first. I spent eight years at the  U.N. 193 countries put themselves first. I've   been in tens of thousands of diplomatic meetings  with other countries. There's never been a meeting   that I've been in where the other country doesn't  ask us to do something. We have to put ourselves   first. We have a $35 trillion national debt. Paul  Think about that. Germans get a budget surplus   every year. We have a $35 trillion national debt.  We'd like airports, like Munich Airport. We would   love to have an opera house on every corner. We  would love to have the infrastructure that Germany   has. We are spending too much money. And so  from our perspective, when we put America first,   we were a rules based country. We don't go in and  conquer. We don't take your oil. When America puts   itself first, the rule of law follows, democracy  follows, capitalism follows. It benefits the world   when we put ourselves first, Olaf Scholz said  in 2019, he had been moved to tears by Vance's   Schultz vs Trump bestselling book. And in an interview exactly  one year ago, the chancellor said and described   it as a tragedy that Vance seems to have turned  from a self-declared conservative conservative   opponent of Donald Trump to a fiery supporter  of this right wing populist in order to gain   his support. So Scholz is calling Trump the right  wing populist. What do you make out of that? Well,   I would say that J.D. Vance and me were were were  friends. We are right. We are a populist. And I   don't take offense to that because the opposite of  that is a left wing elitist. Do you think Scholz   is a left wing leaders? I do. I do. I think that  what has happened is, is that a lot of parties   in Germany have been overtaken by a few people who  like the system, and they want to keep the system,   but it doesn't benefit the people. I mean,  look at the German economy right now. I like   all upshot. I actually really enjoyed my limited  time with him. I thought it was very smart. But,   you know, politicians do politician things and  they do double speak. And they say things like,   I love the book. And then, suddenly the the  author of the book is a Republican. They're like,   I don't I don't like that. That's silly. We  all see that. We all see the double standard   of that. He thinks he's getting away with it, but  he's not. We kind of land. The head of the Green   Trump vs Germany Party just commented on Vance's nomination and  said it's worrying for Europe. Europe has a war   going on. He didn't have a war when Donald Trump  was president. So but they what do you make out of   it that German politicians think, look, Paul,  you and I know that when I was in Germany,   I was defending Donald Trump's policy, the  the Germans, the German government. I wouldn't   say the German people want to bifurcate  the German government from the people,   the German government was really harsh against the  America's policy on Nord Stream two, the German   government was incredibly terrible towards Donald  Trump's policies on the 2% NATO construction. The   German government hated and moved around the  Donald Trump policy on Iran to sanction that   country. Now, I could argue that Nord Stream two  was one of the reasons why we have the war in   Ukraine. The German government didn't listen  to Donald Trump. I'd like an apology on that   because you all have a war in Europe because of  the weakness of Joe Biden and Chancellor Merkel,   who lobbied to drop the sanctions that Trump  had. Remember all those nasty headlines? You   should play some of those attacking us  for wanting sanctions on Nord Stream two,   all the nasty headlines and the 2% push all of  the nasty headlines on telling German companies   to don't do business with Iran. When you squeeze  Iran and they don't have money, they don't have   money to support Hezbollah and Hamas and to start  a war in Israel. So I could go back and say if the   German government had followed the 2%, the Nord  Stream two and the Iran policies of Donald Trump,   I don't believe we would have two major wars.  I don't hear them apologizing, but I do hear   them changing their position quietly. They now  agree with Donald Trump, but they won't say we   were wrong. What would be your advice to the  chancellor, to the ministers in Germany now?   How to talk to Trump Because we have a discussion in Germany on going  what to do now that the possibility is pretty high   that Donald Trump could become president? What's  like should these politicians do? Experts say it   makes sense and it is a great advantage to talk  to Trump again and again or even to play golf   with him. What advice would you give them? Look,  I think it's pretty simple. I don't think it's   it's complicated. I think governments that take  care of its people that listen to the people are   the ones that really do well. So I don't think  that the German government should do anything   but listen to its people. Let the people be  more in charge, listen to what they want. They,   they they like Americans, want the government to  put themselves first and to take care of Germany   first. But how to talk to Donald Trump should all  have shots, loan goals And no, I don't. I mean,   I think Donald Trump is a pretty simple guy. He's  fantastic at the back and forth of talking about.   So just present your ideas and you can talk to him  and there's a deal to be made. So let's call him   now. Of course. I mean, look there, Joe Biden  hasn't spoken to Vladimir Putin in three years   and there's a war in Europe going on because  the Russians invaded Ukraine. And the leader   of the world, Joe Biden, has not even spoken  to Vladimir Putin. I think speaking to people   is a tactic. It's not a goal. It's not the the  solution, but it's how you start talking about   the goal. And solutions. Before we talk about  the war in Ukraine, I would like to focus a   little bit more in Germany because we're wondering  what would happen if you know, what would happen   the very same as the first term camp's president.  So what will happen to U.S. military bases in   Germany? Look, we're not going to talk about what  would happen in the Donald Trump administration   specifically because we're in an election we're  trying to win. But again, there's no secret.   There's no secret. I mean, it's exactly what  you're going to get from the first term, which is,   you know, we want to see American money spent.  Well, we want to take care of the American people   first. And we've got to somehow deal with this $35  trillion national debt, according to an agreement   NATO between Biden and Scholz, U.S. missiles and cruise  missiles was a range as far as Moscow are to be   stationed in Germany from 2026. Would a President  Trump stick to these plans? We were concentrating   on the election. Donald Trump has said that he  will no longer defend defaulting allies not. No,   no, no, that's not true. Let me let me be clear  on that. That's not true, Paul. Okay. But the   question was the question was that somebody came  to him and said, if the allies had said to you,   no, we're not going to pay our 2%, then what  would you do? Would you still defend them? Now,   I know you don't have children, but if you had a  child and a child said to you, I know the rule,   I'm not going to obey it, you let him slide. The  question was, what do you do if an ally looks   at you and says, I will not abide by the 2014  Wales pledge, There is only one answer that you   could give. If someone stands up and says, I as a  country will not abide by the 2014 Wales pledge,   I'm not going to pay my 2%. Scholz reaction was,  and I quote Any relative is Asian of the mutual   assistance guarantee is dangerous. Again, I think  the most dangerous thing is undermining NATO and   not paying your fair share. If you are trying to  pretend like you're a full participant in NATO and   you're not paying your obligations, then I think  that's very dangerous to be part of a club and   not pay your dues. The slogan at the NATO Summit  now in Washington was More or less, We must make   the alliance Trump safe. That's what people said  there. What do you think about. I think that's   what the media said. What do you think about it?  I know world leaders. I know members of NATO who   are heads of state. And privately they'll tell  you NATO was much stronger under Donald Trump.   The NATO states have also decided in Washington  that Ukraine's paths to NATO is irreversible.   Will Ukraine join NATO? Well, first of all, no one  can commit the United States to future policies,   but no one, you can't you can't tell us that  what our policy is in 2028 or 2027 or 2026,   you can't do that, that that's undemocratic.  It's un-American. So we have one president at   a time. Joe Biden is the president. He gets to  make all the decisions. We have an election in   November. We'll see what happens. So let's talk  about Ukraine. There was many statements from   Peace in 24 hours Donald Trump, the most outspoken was probably  that he could achieve peace in 24 hours,   was sitting down with Putin and Zelensky. Do you  really think that is realistic? 100%? I mean,   look, Donald Trump had peace agreements between  Arabs and Israelis. Donald Trump had no wars in   Europe. And I think the reality is, is that he has  what what I would call a credible threat. There's   a difference between a threat of military action  and a credible threat of military action. And the   difference is the messenger. So I'm going to give  you an example, too, to answer the question. When   an evangelical pastor by the name of Pastor  Brunson was held against his will in Turkey,   it's very disheartening for many Americans. We  were very upset by it because this NATO ally was   holding a pastor against his will and we didn't  get a lot of action from the Turks. And it bubbled   up and finally went to donald trump and he said  to Erdogan, if you do not release this pastor,   I will ruin your economy starting tomorrow.  Now, Pastor Brunson was released by the next   day. And I think the difference is, is that  Erdogan believed that Donald Trump was going   to do something immediately, but he didn't think  that Donald Trump would send a white paper down   to the Treasury and to the State Department  for a thoughtful process of three months to   figure out what to do. He knew that the next  morning there would be tariffs or isolation   or whatever. My point in telling you the story  is that there's a difference between a threat   of action, whether it's sanctions or military  action, tariffs. The difference between a threat   and a credible threat is totally known by the  parties. And I believe that the Ukrainian leader   and the Russian leader absolutely understand that  Donald Trump has credibility on these issues.   And so, yeah, do I think that he could solve this  fast? Absolutely. Let's talk about Putin a little   Putin and Biden bit longer, because now there were statements  coming in from the Foreign Minister Lavrov,   who's happy about treaty bans because he said,  yeah, well, I describe it becoming a nominee. So   what did he said? He doesn't care about Ukraine  and, you know, shouldn't put more money in. Is   that how it will go? Okay. First of all, let  me correct you. J.D. Vance has never said he   doesn't care about Ukraine. And the reality is,  is you should have started this question with   me by saying Vladimir Putin announced that  he wants Joe Biden for president. He said,   I prefer Joe Biden because he is predictable. Goes  back to my other point about the unpredictability   and the credibility. Do you think that was in  the perception of of of Vladimir Putin? Well,   why do you think that Lavrov gave an honest  opinion about JD So you're switching when   it's convenient? What I'm telling you is  that Vladimir Putin went public and said,   I prefer Joe Biden because he is predictable. He  gave you a reason. And guess what, Paul? Vladimir   Putin is right that Joe Biden is predictable. How?  There is no unpredictability. So so I think it's   really important for the Europeans to understand  this because the media are going to cloud this   issue. Vladimir Putin wants Joe Biden to win this  election because he doesn't want to have to deal   with an unpredictable, credible Donald Trump. So  how would you say when you say to me that Lavrov   says something like, J.D. Vance is on the ticket,  he's being nice, and he says something? Of course,   What are they supposed to say? Like they don't  attack it right away. How would you describe the   relation between Trump and Putin? Look, you know,  first of all, I think you just got to look at the   evidence because Donald Trump is somebody who  absolutely is fighting for American safety and   looks at threats and looks at friends or opponents  and even enemies. And he looks at them and says,   I have to do everything I can to keep Americans  prosperous and safe. So that's why he crossed   the line and went in to see Kim Jong un. Kim Jong  un was firing missiles very hostile towards us.   Threatens where I live in Los Angeles. I know a  lot of East Coasters don't really pay that much   attention to North Korea. We on the West Coast  absolutely have to to pay attention. It threatens   Los Angeles where I live. And so I was happy to  see the president go in and engage with Kim Jong   un. I wouldn't say that they're friends, but I  would say that they talk and I would say that   he's maneuvering to protect Americans. It's the  same with Vladimir Putin. Look, Vladimir Putin   and his media operation attacked Donald Trump and  me consecutively over Nord Stream two constantly.   They didn't like that. They didn't want sanctions.  It was Chancellor Merkel and Joe Biden who got   together and dropped those sanctions because  that's what Putin wanted. You can go look at the   speeches that Senate Democrats made in Washington,  DC on this issue and they literally said we have   to drop these sanctions because if we stick it  in the eye of the Russians, it would be more   dangerous. Now, Paul, they were flat wrong because  what was more dangerous is weakness. How could   Ukraine peace plan peace look like from your perspective? Because  when I talk to Ukrainians, they say that Vladimir   Putin has no interests for peace, that Vladimir  Putin wants for region in Ukraine. That's what   he says under Biden. That's what he says under  Joe Biden. So here's what I would just say about   that. I don't want to get into great details. I  haven't talked to President Trump about this. I   know you guys are really hungry and you should be  pushing us on these issues. But the reality is,   is that I would sit here and talk to you about  Michigan and Pennsylvania and how we win for   hours and hours. That's what we are concentrated  on. So what a peace plan looks like. I haven't   talked to Trump. Let me just give you a little  bit of my perspective, just my personal again,   I don't speak for the president. I haven't talked  to him about this. This is literally just Rick   Cornell's thoughts. I think that there were  problems with Minsk and Minsk, too. But I think   there are some elements there that are good.  I think autonomous regions sound pretty good.   I think territorial integrity is a must and yet,  you know, there's a whole bunch of other elements   that we have to worry about. The Russians signed  Minsk. I don't know if they ever really wanted   to implement it, but one lesson that I learned  from the Kosovo Serbia negotiations is that the   Lessons from Kosovo person who does the negotiations, who looks at  both sides and tries to pull in both sides to   say, I need you to move this way and I need you to  move this way. The person who does that, no shows   the vulnerabilities and knows where they didn't  quite want to go, but forged an agreement. And so   the most important part, when you finally get two  sides to come together to agree some on something,   the most important thing is the follow up and  holding them to account. The person that needs   to do that are the ones who negotiated because  they know where the weaknesses are and where they   slightly moved and they didn't want to move, but  they did. You have to be able to use the carrots   and sticks in that instance, remind them why they  signed. You know, you don't love moving this way.   You know, you don't love making this concession,  but it's really important to do so. And I would   say that that the failures of Minsk, where we  didn't have any follow up once that was signed,   a whole bunch of people celebrated and moved on.  Well, there were follow ups and even meetings with   Zelensky and Putin and now with credible people in  Merkel and not with credible people. I would say   the two are credible. But let me ask you, there  would be different under a Trump administration,   there would be absolute holding people to their  commitments, talking about what would happen if   Europe should pay more for Ukraine Donald Trump becomes president. Also, in regard  of Ukraine, do you expect Germany, Europe to pay   more for Ukraine than they're doing now? Sure, of  course. It's a war in Europe. That means it's in   your backyard. If there was a war in Mexico, we  would be doing the majority of the work, if not   all of the work. And we certainly wouldn't ask the  Germans to help us if there was a war in Mexico.   So I would put it this way Are the Germans helping  us with our border war? Are they sending us money   because we have this problem at the border? The  shared values NATO We're having an invasion on   our border, but I don't hear a lot of talk about  that. And look, I wouldn't joking and half joking.   I'm not suggesting that. Let's not have a headline  that says Rick is asking the Germans for for money   for the border. But my point is, is when we talk  about shared responsibility, it goes two ways.   So does it mean the US won't pay anything  anymore to Ukraine or that? That's a look,   that's a decision for Donald Trump and Donald  Trump alone. We're concentrating on Michigan,   Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and we got to win.  Talking about this right now, there's a kind of   Will Biden run against Trump open revolt against Joe Biden and the Democratic  Party. The majority of Democrats say he shouldn't   run. Do you still expect that Joe Biden to run  against Trump? First of all, we had an election in   this country through the Democratic process, the  Democratic primary. The Democrats chose Joe Biden.   The people across this country in all 50 states  voted for Joe Biden. But you're talking about as   some elites in the Democratic Party in Washington,  DC, that don't like the poll numbers. So they want   to throw out what the people voted for. I remember  hearing something about undermining democracy,   blah, blah, blah. If we're going to talk about  undermining democracy, I think throwing Joe Biden   off the ticket that he just ran on and just won  on should be an outrage of Axel Springer media.   But it could still happen that Joe Biden says he  doesn't want to run anymore. Okay. Well, that's   a separate story. I think he's been shoved off  the stage by a lot of elites who are undermining   democracy. They voted for Joe Biden, By the way.  Are you telling me that suddenly in July of 2024,   Joe Biden suddenly got dementia? We all saw it  last year. They voted for him knowing exactly   who he was. They they should not undermine  the vote of the people. And so I think when   you say the majority of Democrats want him off  the stage, the majority of Democrat elites,   the the people still want Joe Biden, The Democrats  ask him at the beginning what Olaf Scholz should   Who Trump respects in Germany do. And I do. And yeah, what I ask you is the  beginning. What Olaf Scholz should do now was   Donald Trump. Is there any politician in Germany?  That's my last question. Who he respects a lot.   Who's he? Donald Trump. Look up. I love the  German people. I mean, I have so many friends   who are Germans and I love the camaraderie that  we have. Germans and Americans are a lot of like   German businesses. American businesses are  so intertwined. I think it's the problem   is the German government and I think the German  government is just not listening to the people.   And that's just my opinion. I think when it comes  to Donald Trump, there's no mystery. You just have   to deal with him like he's another leader of a  country who's fighting for his people. And so   talk to them, talk to him, talk to his people.  If he's elected. I want to make sure that that   throughout this whole interview, that that we're  really sensitive to the fact that I'm not putting   the cart before the horse. As we say in America,  we're constantly waiting on the election. And I   have no idea what's going to happen in November.  I certainly hope that Donald Trump wins. We're   fighting hard. But the you know, ideas of  what's going to happen then in a second term,   I want to know way to to make it seem like I think  it's a done deal. But is there one politician you   respect the most? I've said this for a long time,  and I really believe in that. Germany has the   ability to be Donald Trump's favorite country.  It's well-run. It's got a great economy. And by   well-run I mean the society works, right? It's got  great structure. And the people are have a strong   voice and and the economy can be enormous. It's  a very powerful country. And so I would say the   person that leads Germany in a way that that pays  attention to the people and makes decisions for   Germany and doesn't try to, you know, get in other  countries, businesses. That's what we're trying to   do in America. We're trying to concentrate on  ourselves with a $35 trillion national debt.   That doesn't mean where we're going to go it alone  or we're going to be an isolationist. No. Again,   I believe that when America puts itself first,  the rules based system is celebrated and everyone   benefits from that. We're going to be great  partners, but we're going to form coalitions   around things like we think Iran should be  sanctioned. And so we might try to do it through   the U.N. If the U.N. doesn't want to do it, then  maybe we would go somewhere else, just like we did   in the first term, form a coalition of the willing  for sanctions. We need to be able to rely on our   friends to help us on things like that. But we  we want to not start any new wars. We want to   end wars. We want to concentrate on the economy.  Donald Trump's tenure is about growing the economy   and helping people be prosperous instead of war.  But I do think that we're in this cycle where a   lot of governments just like to push war as the  only option. And I'll leave you with this my last   point. It still bothers me very much that for 30  days, 45 days, all we heard from Joe Biden was the   Russians are coming into Ukraine, the Russians are  coming, the Russians are coming. We have evidence.   We have intel. We share that intel. The Russians  are coming. Why didn't Anthony Blinken take   his plane and get European foreign ministers to  Kiev or Moscow to stop a war? Why wasn't there a   war? There was swords. It was more cruel. There  was many now trying It wasn't. We did not have a   serious effort of of going in and saying, a war is  coming. We're going to stop this hit. Joe Biden,   Anthony Blinken, all they talked about is get  the money ready, get the war machine going,   because we're going to have to help because a  war is coming. Do you support what Viktor Orban   is doing now, the Hungarian prime minister talking  to Putin, talking to Zelensky, talking to Chinese?   Well, let me let me just step away and say, I  think talking to people is a really good idea.   I'm a diplomat. And I think that the way that you  solve problems is through talking. So thank you.